Freedom of Speech - When Does it Cross the Line?

[pecan]

Freedom of Speech has been used to promote fairness, equality and to expose human rights issues.

But many use Freedom of Speech to promote their world views.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

So when does Freedom of Speech cross the line?

Some countries censor the press and its citizens.  Other countries encourage a free press.

At the individual level, people use free speech to justify their behaviour (positive and negative depending on your point of view).

At least one person on this forum have used Freedom of Speech to justify his right to proclaim his personal beliefs about a small section of our society and to condone violence against said group.

If i were to proclaim that we should return to segregation and slavery, should I be allowed to do so because I have the right to Freedom of Speech?

I started this thread as a result of recent posts on attitudes on homosexuality.

But Freedom of Speech issues are bigger that the narrow focus on homosexuality.

Is there interest in this topic or am i pissing against de wind?

[Mr Fix-it]

I'm interested to see where this is going.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but when it is pushin ah negative head or beyone logic den is time to lock dat off.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

I would like to see why he was found guilty.

 

[pecan]

I'm interested to see where this is going.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but when it is pushin ah negative head or beyone logic den is time to lock dat off.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

I would like to see why he was found guilty.

 

German court sentences Zundel to 5 years for inciting racial hatred
Chris Wattie, National Post
Published: Friday, February 16, 2007

TORONTO - The conviction in Germany yesterday of Ernst Zundel for inciting racial hatred and denying the Holocaust should be a lesson to all who would imitate him, says Frank Dimant, executive vice-president of the B'nai Brith Canada. Zundel, who spent much of his life in Canada before being extradited to Germany to face the charges, was sentenced to five years in prison. "Justice has finally been served," Mr. Dimant said. "We're very pleased that he's finally convicted. This case is a warning to other hate-mongers that they will not be tolerated." Mr. Dimant said he remained concerned that Zundel's case took so long to resolve. A landed immigrant to Canada, Zundel has been fighting authorities over his insistence that the Holocaust either never happened or was greatly exaggerated since the 1980s. "That's a reflection of the lack of political will in this country under former governments," Mr. Dimant said. "But the times have changed, and hopefully we will see prompt and aggressive prosecutions in these cases ... and we won't have to wait 20 years for convictions of hate-mongers." B'nai Brith has called on Canada to make Holocaust denial a specific crime, as it is in Germany. "As the door slams shut on Zundel, there is much more work to be done to address the growing and dangerous spread of Holocaust denial," Mr. Dimant said. The Canadian Jewish Congress praised Zundel's sentence, the maximum penalty for Holocaust denial under German law, as "entirely appropriate." "Zundel always claimed he is not anti-Jewish, but that he is pro-German," national president Ed Morgan said. "With today's court decision, we are pro-German as well, albeit in a different sense. The message should be clear that Holocaust denial is neither an expression of historical research nor free speech. It is anti-Semitism, pure and simple."


© National Post 2007

Looks like that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Germany.

[Mr Fix-it]

I'm interested to see where this is going.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but when it is pushin ah negative head or beyone logic den is time to lock dat off.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

I would like to see why he was found guilty.

 

German court sentences Zundel to 5 years for inciting racial hatred
Chris Wattie, National Post
Published: Friday, February 16, 2007

TORONTO - The conviction in Germany yesterday of Ernst Zundel for inciting racial hatred and denying the Holocaust should be a lesson to all who would imitate him, says Frank Dimant, executive vice-president of the B'nai Brith Canada. Zundel, who spent much of his life in Canada before being extradited to Germany to face the charges, was sentenced to five years in prison. "Justice has finally been served," Mr. Dimant said. "We're very pleased that he's finally convicted. This case is a warning to other hate-mongers that they will not be tolerated." Mr. Dimant said he remained concerned that Zundel's case took so long to resolve. A landed immigrant to Canada, Zundel has been fighting authorities over his insistence that the Holocaust either never happened or was greatly exaggerated since the 1980s. "That's a reflection of the lack of political will in this country under former governments," Mr. Dimant said. "But the times have changed, and hopefully we will see prompt and aggressive prosecutions in these cases ... and we won't have to wait 20 years for convictions of hate-mongers." B'nai Brith has called on Canada to make Holocaust denial a specific crime, as it is in Germany. "As the door slams shut on Zundel, there is much more work to be done to address the growing and dangerous spread of Holocaust denial," Mr. Dimant said. The Canadian Jewish Congress praised Zundel's sentence, the maximum penalty for Holocaust denial under German law, as "entirely appropriate." "Zundel always claimed he is not anti-Jewish, but that he is pro-German," national president Ed Morgan said. "With today's court decision, we are pro-German as well, albeit in a different sense. The message should be clear that Holocaust denial is neither an expression of historical research nor free speech. It is anti-Semitism, pure and simple."


© National Post 2007

Looks like that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Germany.

Did Zundel prove that this is the case or was he jus talking up he a**??

[Organic]

I'm interested to see where this is going.  I'm all for freedom of speech, but when it is pushin ah negative head or beyone logic den is time to lock dat off.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

I would like to see why he was found guilty.

 

German court sentences Zundel to 5 years for inciting racial hatred
Chris Wattie, National Post
Published: Friday, February 16, 2007

TORONTO - The conviction in Germany yesterday of Ernst Zundel for inciting racial hatred and denying the Holocaust should be a lesson to all who would imitate him, says Frank Dimant, executive vice-president of the B'nai Brith Canada. Zundel, who spent much of his life in Canada before being extradited to Germany to face the charges, was sentenced to five years in prison. "Justice has finally been served," Mr. Dimant said. "We're very pleased that he's finally convicted. This case is a warning to other hate-mongers that they will not be tolerated." Mr. Dimant said he remained concerned that Zundel's case took so long to resolve. A landed immigrant to Canada, Zundel has been fighting authorities over his insistence that the Holocaust either never happened or was greatly exaggerated since the 1980s. "That's a reflection of the lack of political will in this country under former governments," Mr. Dimant said. "But the times have changed, and hopefully we will see prompt and aggressive prosecutions in these cases ... and we won't have to wait 20 years for convictions of hate-mongers." B'nai Brith has called on Canada to make Holocaust denial a specific crime, as it is in Germany. "As the door slams shut on Zundel, there is much more work to be done to address the growing and dangerous spread of Holocaust denial," Mr. Dimant said. The Canadian Jewish Congress praised Zundel's sentence, the maximum penalty for Holocaust denial under German law, as "entirely appropriate." "Zundel always claimed he is not anti-Jewish, but that he is pro-German," national president Ed Morgan said. "With today's court decision, we are pro-German as well, albeit in a different sense. The message should be clear that Holocaust denial is neither an expression of historical research nor free speech. It is anti-Semitism, pure and simple."


© National Post 2007

Looks like that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Germany.

Did Zundel prove that this is the case or was he jus talking up he a**??

freedom of speech like everyhting else have to have limits.
hence things like libel.
everything in moderation.
u cannot be free to say or do as yuh please

[pecan]

so where are de checks and balances?

How do we decide what is right and wrong?

Where should regulation come from? from legal authorities only or from self-regulation.

Dis thread had its genesis in a man saying that Freedom of Speech gave him the right to condone violence against a specific group.

So who should

a) Decide that was he said is wrong (another man talk about "moral high ground" in dis context)?

b) Should his posts be censored and regulated and if so, who should regulate his postings?

Maybe I juss ranting to get a few tings off meh chest.

[Organic]

so where are de checks and balances?

How do we decide what is right and wrong?

Where should regulation come from? from legal authorities only or from self-regulation.

Dis thread had its genesis in a man saying that Freedom of Speech gave him the right to condone violence against a specific group.

So who should

a) Decide that was he said is wrong (another man talk about "moral high ground" in dis context)?

b) Should his posts be censored and regulated and if so, who should regulate his postings?

Maybe I juss ranting to get a few tings off meh chest.

maybe  ..lol..jk

[dcs]

Forum Rules and Guidelines

Those are the boundaries for this forum used at the discretion of the moderators.

Everybody have a different line....the main ones to keep in mind are the law and the moderators.  After that who vex cud stay vex for the most part.

[Jah Gol]

Freedom of Speech has been used to promote fairness, equality and to expose human rights issues.

But many use Freedom of Speech to promote their world views.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

So when does Freedom of Speech cross the line?

Some countries censor the press and its citizens.  Other countries encourage a free press.

At the individual level, people use free speech to justify their behaviour (positive and negative depending on your point of view).

At least one person on this forum have used Freedom of Speech to justify his right to proclaim his personal beliefs about a small section of our society and to condone violence against said group.

If i were to proclaim that we should return to segregation and slavery, should I be allowed to do so because I have the right to Freedom of Speech?

I started this thread as a result of recent posts on attitudes on homosexuality.

But Freedom of Speech issues are bigger that the narrow focus on homosexuality.

Is there interest in this topic or am i pissing against de wind?

I'm not sure if this guy is the same historian who was actually charged with some kind of offence for attempted to discredit the Holocaust but I was appauled at what happened to that man. He was actually trying to build a real case for his hypothesis and was shot down immediately. As silly as it was the man didn't do anyting to anybody. Discrimination may be illegal but racism is not. If someone wants to hold a racist view there is nothing you can do about that - that is, if you believe in freedom of speech.

The same applies to attitudes on homosexuality.

[cocoapanyol]

P, I all fuh freedom of speech eh..even when de people talking bout promoting killing anudder human being fuh being black, jewish, gay, too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny.

I like for people tuh be able to express dey selves because when dey do, and dey express dem kinda thoughts and actions, I know dem is people tuh stay way from.

Now on de udder hand, yuh have children and inexperienced people who might be exposed tuh dem kinda lawless way ah thinking an we both know dat when yuh young, yuh feel yuh know everything but yuh don't and dat adults and parents dey tuh help guide de young and protect dem from negative and anti-human forces.

So I say, let de authorities keep ah watchful eye an reign een racists, bigotry and what not but at de same time, we who is parents hopefully watching we own young and doing de same.

when I hear (and read) some ah de extreme and violent thoughts are some people, ah does really have tuh wonder bout why dey from, how dey get raise up, IF dey get raise up and at de end ah de day, ah does jes feel sorry fuh dem because it mus be real painful tuh be carrying rong dat kinda hate and feeling proud ah it to.

[Dutty]

Dis internet ting is trouble oui....is not everyting on here yuh does have to absolutely beleive


Jah gol hit de nail on the head...
"If someone wants to hold a racist view there is nothing you can do about that - that is, if you believe in freedom of speech"

The same applies to attitudes on homosexuality."

freedom of speech crosses the line when somebody gets injured or killed from it....the old example of jokingly shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theatre...or somebody on a podium actually inciting a crowd or group to do harm against someone else and suceeding

Other than that, it's just speech

I disagree with war and lionpaw with their views on gays...I doh have nuttn against dem gay fellahs

However..I do hold their violent views when it comes to  pedophiles who molest small children especially toddlers

Does that make me a person with less 'broughtapcy' or raised wrong?....maybe...I tink I raised okay..matter of fact I tink I high class because I stop eating with my fingers and toes about 6 months now.

Point is,,it's just a view or values that the person grew up with
If we were living in the 1920's with internet,,most wouldnt raise an eyebrow on war and lionpaw's views

, people and values always change over time

[Organic]

Dis internet ting is trouble oui....is not everyting on here yuh does have to absolutely beleive


Jah gol hit de nail on the head...
"If someone wants to hold a racist view there is nothing you can do about that - that is, if you believe in freedom of speech"

The same applies to attitudes on homosexuality."

freedom of speech crosses the line when somebody gets injured or killed from it....the old example of jokingly shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theatre...or somebody on a podium actually inciting a crowd or group to do harm against someone else and suceeding

Other than that, it's just speech

I disagree with war and lionpaw with their views on gays...I doh have nuttn against dem gay fellahs

However..I do hold their violent views when it comes to  pedophiles who molest small children especially toddlers

Does that make me a person with less 'broughtapcy' or raised wrong?....maybe...I tink I raised okay..matter of fact I tink I high class because I stop eating with my fingers and toes about 6 months now.

Point is,,it's just a view or values that the person grew up with
If we were living in the 1920's with internet,,most wouldnt raise an eyebrow on war and lionpaw's views

, people and values always change over time

lol 

[Mr Fix-it]

Freedom of Speech has been used to promote fairness, equality and to expose human rights issues.

But many use Freedom of Speech to promote their world views.

Recently,  a man named Ernst Zundel, was found guilty for claiming that the Holocaust was not real. He cited freedom of speech to express his beliefs.

So when does Freedom of Speech cross the line?

Some countries censor the press and its citizens.  Other countries encourage a free press.

At the individual level, people use free speech to justify their behaviour (positive and negative depending on your point of view).

At least one person on this forum have used Freedom of Speech to justify his right to proclaim his personal beliefs about a small section of our society and to condone violence against said group.

If i were to proclaim that we should return to segregation and slavery, should I be allowed to do so because I have the right to Freedom of Speech?

I started this thread as a result of recent posts on attitudes on homosexuality.

But Freedom of Speech issues are bigger that the narrow focus on homosexuality.

Is there interest in this topic or am i pissing against de wind?

I'm not sure if this guy is the same historian who was actually charged with some kind of offence for attempted to discredit the Holocaust but I was appauled at what happened to that man. He was actually trying to build a real case for his hypothesis and was shot down immediately. As silly as it was the man didn't do anyting to anybody. Discrimination may be illegal but racism is not. If someone wants to hold a racist view there is nothing you can do about that - that is, if you believe in freedom of speech.

The same applies to attitudes on homosexuality.

Dias wah ah saying, was he actually trying to show this information and the Illuminati close him down and throw him in jail??  Or was he jus run of the mill insane and he needed to be put away??

[WestCoast]

Does that make me a person with less 'broughtapcy' or raised wrong?....maybe...I tink I raised okay..matter of fact I tink I high class because I stop eating with my fingers and toes about 6 months now.

Ya Lie
I hear is since de new year
not so

JK eh
doh sen no Illuminatti fa meh eh

[Dutty]

Dias wah ah saying, was he actually trying to show this information and the Illuminati close him down and throw him in jail??  Or was he jus run of the mill insane and he needed to be put away??

dais aginst de law in germany..wheter he right wrong or wuhever..yuh break de law yuh get lock up!! simple!!

he get deport from canada for inciting hatred...because holocaust denial is not he ONLY game

when he INSIDE de jail..he go deny all de man love dem fellahs in de cell block givin him too...but he go have a harder time to make dat case

[pecan]

For de record ...

I doh have any problem with people disliking any specific group ... We are allowed to like and dislike.

However, when we act on these dislikes to harm or injure members of the group .. .that is when we cross de line.

Point to consider ; is it just words?

A recent topic on the use of the "N" word also addressed the effect "words" have on people.

In fact, I argued that it was just words ... i.e sticks and stones may break my bones etc.

I was properly rebuked for that comment.

Words do have an effect on people and I think we need to consider that.

Do the words "fire burn gay" a metaphor as LionPaw expressed?

Perhaps .. but it exposes how deep hatred runs.  And maybe as Mrs A. say,

"I like for people tuh be able to express dey selves because when dey do, and dey express dem kinda thoughts and actions, I know dem is people tuh stay way from"

 

There was a time when people had similar attitudes to blacks ... and it was OK back den.

[WestCoast]

mr Pecan ya doin a real service to all

[pecan]

mr Pecan ya doin a real service to all

now i eh know if yuh being facetious or not   .   

ah musbe be too sensitive today .. musbe because is Carnival an I up here in de cold

[WestCoast]

mr Pecan ya doin a real service to all

now i eh know if yuh being facetious or not   .   
ah musbe be too sensitive today .. musbe because is Carnival an I up here in de cold

no man ya doing GREAT
but i can understand your uneasyness as it is a VERY sensitive topic indeed
i am trying my best to join in but not to insult/offend anyone by what I say

[TriniCana]

p, that line is very thin. My opinion is when it reaches the stage of being a threat or someone trying vebrally to change the way I live my life or interact with others, then i think that's crossing my line that i drew.  Other than that, everything else is just words in the wind.

Anyway, I'm sure this thread came about because of another thread...
So, my thoughts on that...

Talk...I beg you to talk, it's your damn right. Say what's on your mind, get it off your chest. Ulcers are a hell of a thing.  I'd prefer a conversationist than a dummy.  I, not you - I then have dey options of listening, responding or ignoring, that is my damn right too.

We all have difference of opinions on abuse, homosexuality, the "N" word the "M" word, religion, politics, war and even food etc.

We don't know the background of an individual to then accuse them of being wrong. Who is to say this person was brought up differently from us or even had a bad childhood experience.  
Maybe abused to the extent of "hating" people of a different ethnic group or even someone's sexual preferences. We don't know.  Then again who is to say that this person or people was brought into this world just to rise other peoples' blood pressure. So this is where I saying that we the other people have options/choices.

I read a couple of threads between last night and this morning, and it is sad to see that in this day and age people would do bodily harm or even instigate to someone else all because they are just "different"...and i use the word "different" in general. (i'm sure somebody will correct me)
I didn't respond to any of those threads because I saw it not necessary to do so. Ignorance and lack of open-mindness played a large part of the postings.

Who are we to judge? That is not our job.

my 2 shilling and ah quarter

[TriniCana]

mr Pecan ya doin a real service to all

now i eh know if yuh being facetious or not   .   
ah musbe be too sensitive today .. musbe because is Carnival an I up here in de cold

no man ya doing GREAT
but i can understand your uneasyness as it is a VERY sensitive topic indeed
i am trying my best to join in but not to insult/offend anyone by what I say

say what you have to say....that is you damn right.
I'm want to believe that there are people with adult mentality that if they are offended by what you post, they either PM you or post their disagreement in a civil way.

that all

[Dutty]

wha 'M word'? ah miss da one

Mackomeh?

Mellifluent?

Macajuel?

[TriniCana]

wha 'M word'? ah miss da one

Mackomeh?

Mellifluent?

Macajuel?

"Man"
we girls have some disagreement...and it would take you Dutty to realized that eh....
lawd
and leave P thread alone

[Dutty]

wha 'M word'? ah miss da one

Mackomeh?

Mellifluent?

Macajuel?

"Man"
we girls have some disagreement...and it would take you Dutty to realized that eh....
lawd
and leave P thread alone

really?? allyuh had man disagreement??...ah miss out

it did had jello and bodice pullin an ting?? 

p I eh trying to mash up yuh thread...ah investigatin 

[Organic]

lol what will this place be without cana and dutty 

[pecan]

wha 'M word'? ah miss da one

Mackomeh?

Mellifluent?

Macajuel?

"Man"
we girls have some disagreement...and it would take you Dutty to realized that eh....
lawd
and leave P thread alone

really?? allyuh had man disagreement??...ah miss out

it did had jello and bodice pullin an ting?? 

p I eh trying to mash up yuh thread...ah investigatin 

steupss

[Dutty]

Lawd...lemmih get de mister business back on track oui


P I eh know who rebuke yuh breds..if was benny hinn drivin out yuh sins,,me eh know

but de point is like de N word thread...yes it is jus words and we do...or at least some of us do acknowledge that words can be as powerful as bull pistle physically placed on yuh spine with verve

However,,your question/topic when does freedom of speech cross the line....

If you think warmonga and de nex one cross the line....(and lets for argument sake say yuh get de thread removed)...then you startin a bad slippery slope here
cause somebody go find ah slightly off colour joke offensive...and dem somebody go find de word (e.g) pum pum offensive

eventually the only thing we go be allowed to post here is passages from the new testament

because sure as fudge...some yankee go come on here and find the links to my qu'ran offensive

allyuh go buss de illuminati delete budget

[Organic]

Lawd...lemmih get de mister business back on track oui


P I eh know who rebuke yuh breds..if was benny hinn drivin out yuh sins,,me eh know

but de point is like de N word thread...yes it is jus words and we do...or at least some of us do acknowledge that words can be as powerful as bull pistle physically placed on yuh spine with verve

However,,your question/topic when does freedom of speech cross the line....

If you think warmonga and de nex one cross the line....(and lets for argument sake say yuh get de thread removed)...then you startin a bad slippery slope here
cause somebody go find ah slightly off colour joke offensive...and dem somebody go find de word (e.g) pum pum offensive

eventually the only thing we go be allowed to post here is passages from the new testament

because sure as fudge...some yankee go come on here and find the links to my qu'ran offensive

allyuh go buss de illuminati delete budget

wah bout the vedas or the sutras dutty u think dem go eb allowed? u go know...u like "deep thoat" the informer. real x files bizness....
i feel u know real plenty bout the illumanti...dais y when u go awol as u want to do people does get worried..

[Jah Gol]

I understand and agree with the point some of the posters are making about the need for some level of restraint. As I said before I support freedom of speech but I also said in the "Jamaican Homosexual" thread that society must have order. I was pointing specifically to the need to defend the right of law abiding citizens to life and the right of those individuals to recieve the protection of all agencies of the state that are empowered to render that service. Without this people could just kill each other or at least incite such an evil to befall persons.

Which is why I think while we must defend freedom of speech as a part of the idea of maintaining an ordered society not ruled by extreme demagoguery we must discourage the inciting of violence. So for example when Abu Bakr say blood will rain if he ent get he Zakat then it is wrong. If somebody want to say kill all Jews, stone homos to death it is dangerous and must be stopped.

[pecan]

maybe dem boys were jess doing some internet trolling and now dey laughin de belly off watching de fall out.

i was genuinely trying to understand where de hate coming from ... but never got a rationale answer.

Freedom of speech was cited as a reason for expressing their opinions.

We need a free press .. we need freedom of speech .. BUT with that come a responsibility .. If yuh want to shout Freedom of Speech, den you have a responsibility to use it wisely.

Dutty used the example  of shouting "Fire" in a crowded place when a fire doh exist.  De person who do that is not acting responsibly.  And eventually, I hope that society will self-regulate dem.

As far as de checks and balances, DCS say we have the Forum Rules and the mods to regulate.  Agreed, I doh want to hit dat slipery slope when threads get deleted to appease people who get offended.  De reason why i reacted de way I did was to understand de reason for de apparent hate.

So i decided to speak up and make an issue of it.  I could have ignored it and let it pass.  But at least dese people know my views .... de same way I know their views.

If anybody call me self righteous (sorry Coco), den I will argue I am no more self righteous dan de people who have a different opinion and speak dere minds.

Freedom of Speech is not one-sided. 

State your opinion, but doh get vex and try to shut down de debate when somebody disagrees and challenge yuh.