Men of a fat and fertile soil are most commonly effeminate and cowards

[Touches]

this is why we have not developed and moved anywhere, from all aspects of our economy right down to football.

So why, in so many places, has the path of development so often sloped downward?(Economics here but it can be equated to football)

Historically, the poor fortune of resource-rich countries was attributed to sloth. As the 16th-century French political philosopher Jean Bodin put it: ''Men of a fat and fertile soil are most commonly effeminate and cowards; whereas contrariwise a barren country makes men temperate by necessity, and by consequence careful, vigilant and industrious.''

That fellow forumites is the difference between "us" and "them"

[Sanchez]

Who is "them" we referring to.......

[Strip]

doesent explain why them americans have ah never say die hustle attitude on the football field though

[FF]

doesent explain why them americans have ah never say die hustle attitude on the football field though

aaaahhhhpssss.....

[Touches]

Sanchez.....in another thread we were being compared to our cousins up north, and this was my answer there, but I would go so far as to equate "them" to any country who has achieved and made it despite the odds. Of which there are many.

To Strip......yes it does explain in part the Yankee pysche..read the line starting with Historically....poor performance is attributed to sloth.

Sloth does not apply to them, they are very hard workers and they have a winning competitve attitude that is instilled from a young age. there is nothing less than #1. Also while having a conversation with an American fan he told me this.to which I had to rock back and reflect. he said the difference between my country and yours is that the US has fought many wars and battles. We know what it is like to fight, we know how to conquer and we know how to go for victory. What battle has TT ever been in?  He then went on to show how the US has come back from being a goal down to win and then how when TT get goal we fold up like a sada roti.

There are many factors and you could poke a hole in any sentence and pick a flaw. But consider this.......if any of the other caribbean islands had the help and resources we have in football do you think they would be in the position they are in now. St Kitts and Vincey look better than us when we play them, Bimshire nearly beat us, Cuba looking better than us and Haiti beat us recently.

Sloth is the reason we are where we are.

[sub1]

this is why we have not developed and moved anywhere, from all aspects of our economy right down to football.

So why, in so many places, has the path of development so often sloped downward?(Economics here but it can be equated to football)

Historically, the poor fortune of resource-rich countries was attributed to sloth. As the 16th-century French political philosopher Jean Bodin put it: ''Men of a fat and fertile soil are most commonly effeminate and cowards; whereas contrariwise a barren country makes men temperate by necessity, and by consequence careful, vigilant and industrious.''

That fellow forumites is the difference between "us" and "them"

Hence it should follow that america should the fags of this world. I really think sloth is attributed to leadership. Slothful leaders encourages slothfullness since excellence may show them up. Look at the people JW has put in place.

[Reggaefan]

this is why we have not developed and moved anywhere, from all aspects of our economy right down to football.

So why, in so many places, has the path of development so often sloped downward?(Economics here but it can be equated to football)

Historically, the poor fortune of resource-rich countries was attributed to sloth. As the 16th-century French political philosopher Jean Bodin put it: ''Men of a fat and fertile soil are most commonly effeminate and cowards; whereas contrariwise a barren country makes men temperate by necessity, and by consequence careful, vigilant and industrious.''

That fellow forumites is the difference between "us" and "them"

Try telling that to the USA. They are surely from a "fat and fertile soil". Try telling that to the likes of Germany, Italy, England etc etc.
I wonder why the likes of India still struggles in football and sports in general (outside of cricket), seeing that for the most part, the are not from a
"fat and fertile soil". I wonder why haiti, with its 9 million + population still struggles in international sport, seeing  that they are not from a "fat and fertile soil"

[Touches]

Funny you should mention Haiti reggaefan....as they had your team sweating in the Orange Bowl.

Imagine a team training in parks in Ft Lauderdale, exisitng on donations, not having any friendly matches and coached for Free.

Yet they kept you to a draw.

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

[Reggaefan]

Sanchez.....in another thread we were being compared to our cousins up north, and this was my answer there, but I would go so far as to equate "them" to any country who has achieved and made it despite the odds. Of which there are many.

To Strip......yes it does explain in part the Yankee pysche..read the line starting with Historically....poor performance is attributed to sloth.

Sloth does not apply to them, they are very hard workers and they have a winning competitve attitude that is instilled from a young age. there is nothing less than #1. Also while having a conversation with an American fan he told me this.to which I had to rock back and reflect. he said the difference between my country and yours is that the US has fought many wars and battles. We know what it is like to fight, we know how to conquer and we know how to go for victory. What battle has TT ever been in?  He then went on to show how the US has come back from being a goal down to win and then how when TT get goal we fold up like a sada roti.

There are many factors and you could poke a hole in any sentence and pick a flaw. But consider this.......if any of the other caribbean islands had the help and resources we have in football do you think they would be in the position they are in now. St Kitts and Vincey look better than us when we play them, Bimshire nearly beat us, Cuba looking better than us and Haiti beat us recently.

Sloth is the reason we are where we are.

This is Hilarious. I believe that ifJack Warner was a Jakan, his "help" would be better rewarded.

[Reggaefan]

Funny you should mention Haiti reggaefan....as they had your team sweating in the Orange Bowl.

Imagine a team training in parks in Ft Lauderdale, exisitng on donations, not having any friendly matches and coached for Free.

Yet they kept you to a draw.

Thank you for reinforcing my point.

True that, Haiti had us sweating in teh Orange bowl.....

They lost 3-0 in the return game. Thats what football is all about sometimes - HYPE. And by the way, Haiti played about 7 top class international games prior to the Jamaica game in teh Orange bowl. They tied the USA 1-1 only a week before the game. get your facts straight.

[Lower St. John]

Touches - It is a stretch to correlate National Sport to Economic theory.  

For every one example that shows a perfect correlations, someone can point to a serious outlier.

In football, as Reggaefan alluded to what is the deal with Brazil and India.  In cricket, similarly I guess what is the deal with Brazil and India.  But just presenting an argument like that does not take into account the historical circumstances of the country, but yuh know what ah getting at.

[Touches]

For Reggaefan

They tied the USA 1-1 only a week before the game

Yet again you make my point even more valid!

For Lower St John.

Yes I understand where you coming from, plenty factors to consider and it is a stretch. I found however that if one were to summarize the reasons for our failings on the football level and by extension the country as a whole in one sentence, I found that quote to be most adequate.

We lacking the heart, we lacking the fight and we are too lazy...this is why we watching other teams in this Gold Cup and not our own.
We have more resources than most of the teams in that Gold Cup, infrastructure wise, talent wise, knowledge etc. but because of the lack of a certain element I was alluding to in the quote we are where we are today.

You feel if Haiti, Cuba, or any other country in the Caribbean had the resources TT had in football, they would be at the level they are.


 

[Lower St. John]

In the Caribbean the true success story is Jamaica with what they have done and continue to do in the world of sports.  Jamaica is developing a lot of talent at home.  The Jamaica team in the Gold Cup is the Under 17 from under Simones.  They are reaping the rewards.  A number of the other islands are following suit.  I am not sure what are the reasons behind the Jamaicans continuous progress in sports, but we could learn a thing or two from them since I don't buy the argument that any one country has more natural talent than another.

Cuba is an anomaly since they had a very high Sports development program before the end of the Cold War.  Given the right resources, they can quickly return to the top since they have the experience and knowledge of how to develop athletic talent.

We Trinbagonians on the other hand continue to want to bake cake without letting the oven get hot enough to bake the damn cake.  At the same time, these same set a thinkers want First World country status, go figure.  When will we learn that Money cah buy everything.  Which is what I think you are alluding to Touches.

[Mr Mc]

For Reggaefan

They tied the USA 1-1 only a week before the game

Yet again you make my point even more valid!

For Lower St John.

Yes I understand where you coming from, plenty factors to consider and it is a stretch. I found however that if one were to summarize the reasons for our failings on the football level and by extension the country as a whole in one sentence, I found that quote to be most adequate.

We lacking the heart, we lacking the fight and we are too lazy...this is why we watching other teams in this Gold Cup and not our own.
We have more resources than most of the teams in that Gold Cup, infrastructure wise, talent wise, knowledge etc. but because of the lack of a certain element I was alluding to in the quote we are where we are today.

You feel if Haiti, Cuba, or any other country in the Caribbean had the resources TT had in football, they would be at the level they are.


 

Let me see if I am following this properly, the difference between us and them is that we come from a land of fat and fertile soil, so it makes us lazy?!? We have fought no battles so we have no fight?!? And if Haiti and Cuba had our resources they would have top notch football teams...
Well Touches since you want to quote 16th Century French Philosophers and bring Society and Econcomic into this disucussion I will assume we not just talking football anymore, and to that end, if it means not having to live under the conditions such as those in Cuba and Haiti, if it means not having civil wars fought on my homeland soil, not sending the youth of my nation of to fight and spill their blood on the soil of foreign lands, I dont care if we never win another football match ever again!!

Cant deny that as Trini's we rather fete than fight, cant deny that we have more than others and dont do enough with it, but pardna them analogies you making to explain the state of football...yuh reaching!!!
The team just aint ready and just was not good enough,(but i think they dedicated and want to win) and if we dont look towards the future and prepare for the team we going to have in 5-10 years it will be the same thing...but it have people in Haiti and Cuba and J'ca who dont give a dam how good the football team doing becuase of the condition they living in. (yes we have them in Trini too)

[kicker]

For Reggaefan


We have more resources than most of the teams in that Gold Cup, infrastructure wise, talent wise, knowledge etc.
 

Where is it that we Trinis get the illusion that we have some monopoly on natural football talent in the region ? I think that is a serious illusion created by a special generation of ballers(Latas and co.)......a long time ago.......a generation that has passed. We need to get over it. Our players today are no more naturally talented than Jamica's Panama's Costa Rica's etc...... In fact our players today are lacking that natural raw talent and flare in my opinion.....and it's actually quite plain to see.

[Preacher]

''Men of a fat and fertile soil are most commonly effeminate and cowards; whereas contrariwise a barren country makes men temperate by necessity, and by consequence careful, vigilant and industrious.''

Touches even though that is a nice saying....I does not apply to countries in the post industrial age and the information age.

This is because success ia nolonger bassed on what you do (which is pre/present industrial age)
But today success is based on what you know. (Information)

So frankly a people could be as gay as they want to be as long as they know more than you to them you are a cave man

[Sanchez]

Sanchez.....in another thread we were being compared to our cousins up north, and this was my answer there, but I would go so far as to equate "them" to any country who has achieved and made it despite the odds. Of which there are many.

To Strip......yes it does explain in part the Yankee pysche..read the line starting with Historically....poor performance is attributed to sloth.

Sloth does not apply to them, they are very hard workers and they have a winning competitve attitude that is instilled from a young age. there is nothing less than #1. Also while having a conversation with an American fan he told me this.to which I had to rock back and reflect. he said the difference between my country and yours is that the US has fought many wars and battles. We know what it is like to fight, we know how to conquer and we know how to go for victory. What battle has TT ever been in?  He then went on to show how the US has come back from being a goal down to win and then how when TT get goal we fold up like a sada roti.

There are many factors and you could poke a hole in any sentence and pick a flaw. But consider this.......if any of the other caribbean islands had the help and resources we have in football do you think they would be in the position they are in now. St Kitts and Vincey look better than us when we play them, Bimshire nearly beat us, Cuba looking better than us and Haiti beat us recently.

Sloth is the reason we are where we are.

I believe this statement is a little too broad.  Economics and sports, yes I agree, sometimes go hand in hand, but at the same time...I believe History of the game and love for the game plays a bigger part.  Case in point Mexico, Brazil, Argentina. Three countries that does not have the per-capita income as T&T, but the history of the game is embedded in their roots.  The Portugese took the game over to Brazil, the Spanish took it over to Mexico and the Italians, Spanish and Germans took it over to Argentina.  Ok, yes the English brought the game over to Trinidad, but it also brought Cricket, which has divided the attention from Football.  Think about it.  All the teams that I mentioned beforehand, all of them the number one sport is Football, no other sport comes close.  In Trinidad, nearly every football field has a red sand patch in the middle.  I am saying that Trinidad cannot play football and cricket together, one just distracts from the other.  This is my opinion, so I am not wrong.  When it comes to the US, economics play a hefty role.  Every child, girl and boy from an early age get exposed to various sports, football over the past decade and a half has become one of the premier sports, case in point the terminology, "soccer mom".  They are pumping money into football from an early age, getting kids involved and interested, getting kids to love the game.  Eventually I guesstimate that US will be the number one country for football the rate that they are going.  It could take 10 or 50 years, but it will happen.  Anyway, I hope my point is taken.

[duscam]

all we need is for stern to start scoring goals.....thats all and then these discusiions will be a mute point

[Sanchez]

all we need is for stern to start scoring goals.....thats all and then these discusiions will be a mute point

Duscam, these conversations might be too deep for you...

[duscam]

and what have you achieved in your lifetime to determine that

[real madness]

Economics play a role in basically everything but we can't lay the blame there.  Our lack of success is a result of years of poor planning (actually no planning), horrendous administration, poor coaching and of course the players (no heart and quality).

I could be wrong about my next statement and I am open and look forward to comments from the forumites...Very few and I mean very few of these players currently representing our national team would have made the Strike Squad if they were around in that era.  And those that might have made it, the majority of them would have been on the bench.

[duscam]

are you an economist? have you even finished school?

[duscam]

lets see your big post on the topic "who is them we refer to..very insightful..sanchez give me a break

[Sanchez]

are you an economist? have you even finished school?

Actually, I am an economist, thanks for noticing.  This is a forum of opinions, please don't take any comments made personally.  I apologize if I offended you.  It's just that the topic created thought and your justification of the problem was Stern John.  I thought that was a little small-minded. Anyway, when I said, "who's them", I provoked thought in Touches, because the statement "us" versus "them" was too broad. 

[Touches]

This is because success ia nolonger bassed on what you do (which is pre/present industrial age)
But today success is based on what you know. (Information)

I like how I making alyuh fellas think lil bit and we juggling ideas here.

For preacher........if success is no longer based on what you do, but based on what you know.

How come we all know on this forum that Stern playing shit, and Cyd ent ready(Information)
and what they did .......throw away goals and defensive errors cost us a result in the matches.

 


I waiting

Also for Kicker..yes we dont have a monopoloy on talent, but that was just one factore in the sentence.But we do have more stadia per capita, numerous coaches who are big wigs in FIFA, lookloy, Alvin etc. Facilities such as the COE etc. The main man in charge Jack and numerous leagues. What I am alluding to is that we are not making use of the resources we have, wheras those with less and let me be specific as some of us not following........the rest of the Caribbean islands can match us in standards of play on the field.

It is not a matter of gayness etc. And Mr Mc. I was just trying to impart some views of other fans around the world as to reaction of the TT team in the face of adversity. It is one persons opinion, but I would just like you to consider it.

For real madness...the players today barring Latapy and Yorke are better than the strike Squad players....my opinion. Why I say this is remember the level of the game has improved over the years. Mexico was banned from that campaign for using overage players in a tournament. If they were there we would not have been hunting for a spot. Usa at that time had NO pros.only college players and yet they still got a result. Also remember while it came down to the last and final game.the USA also won and drew some games againt the rest of the opposition. Players now are professionals in a pro setting being paid for their services. While they make not look like pros on the field I can assure you the level of football knowledge, experience and training undergone especially from the EURO based pros I am sure was higher than the strike squad.
Also they show strike squad games on TV....on channel 4 regularly and really them fellas technique if you want to go there horrible. But they were fitter and had more heart than the crop today. It is difficult to compare because the game has changed but I think players today would have been able to make the strike squad. If we take each player in his  prime....Stern when hot and in he prime woulda start over philbert jones, alibey, marlon morris etc. Dwarika in he prime coulda make that strike squad. Andrews could more than make it and in the goalie dept....Shaka and Ince better than Brow and Carter, even doe brow training them. I have to say we have nobody who better than leonson lewis , marvin faustin, Latapy or Jamerson.

[real madness]

Touches,
You have some very valid and interesting points.  I will make the following assumption before I proceed...that is all the players are in the prime and in form when making this comparison.  Stern John, Shaka Hislop and Marvin Andrews could have started for the Strike Squad.  Ince (not Imps), Lawrence, Avery and Carlos Edwards might have been reserves.

Also I need to correct my statement a bit, when I say better players I meant it more in the sense of playing as a team although I still think Leonson, Latas, Faustin, Brian Williams are a lot better than the current crop by far(just looking at starting 11).  Guys u mentioned like Alibey, Marlon morris(except Philbert) were reserves.  Also these players are playing professionally so one might quickly assume that they are better, this might or might not be the case.  Back in the the Strike Squad days, our players probably did not have that opportunity to lay pro until Latas, Yorke and Leonson broke through.  So other members of the Strike Squad like Jamerson, Hutson Charles, Brian williams if they were present in this time may have been able to secure pro contacts.

Realistically speaking, this comparison cannot be done and we will never know the answer, but it is just some food for thought...the Strike Squad "TEAM" is better than the majority of the Soca Warriors "PLAYERS".  Look at Greece and Portugal at the Euro championships.

[Touches]

Real Madness

I agree with your last statement......about Strike Squad Team


But let me correct you here this line you typed.......Guys u mentioned like Alibey, Marlon morris(except Philbert) were reserves.

That sir is incorrect. Philbert was only a starter in the last few games, Marlon morris was a consistent starter, Alibey was always used as a starter when playing With Leonson Lewis and Hutson Charles was a reserve. In fact Dexter Skeene was also a starter for the early part of the campaign.Leonson lewis became a starter in middle of the campaign as a fwd if he was not playing on the flank.

If you want to refute this......pick up a copy of the historic attempt of the TT National football team to qualify for the 1990 World Cup in italy, by marlon Morris.It goes into every game of this campaign, starting squad, tactics, line up and training camp before hand.

A must read for every forumite.

[real madness]

I was referring to the Final Round..i remember Skeene and Morris starting earlier in the campaign.  Cannot recall Alibey starting but i will check that document u mentioned.

[FF]

If you want to refute this......pick up a copy of the historic attempt of the TT National football team to qualify for the 1990 World Cup in italy, by marlon Morris.It goes into every game of this campaign, starting squad, tactics, line up and training camp before hand.

A must read for every forumite.

Touches,

How can i get a copy of this? I based in NY... I am very interested

[real madness]

Touches,
U are right about Alibey, he started 4 games in the final round (8 gamesin final round), hudson charles and leonson started 7 each, philbert started 5 and skeene/morris started 1 each.

My memories of Alibey only include unscoring goals so that clouded the fact he started.