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Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 12:02:34 PM »


yes however you were saying that this god created the universe and i wasnt saying he didnt exist im just not making bold lofty statements of which i dont know to be absolutely true and hold them to be gospel.

you did however present a decent arguement and i respect your intellectual capacity, a capacity that i think i quite underestimated, also though,

"Because the alternative does not make sense.  What would be the purpose of existing?  "


thats just it is that sometimes i wonder if there is at all any point to existing at all.



i suppose we'll all just have to wait until our own ends to find out.

i think that is why religion was created.  Our ancestors (and for that matter, contemporary man) had to create a mechanism to allow them to cope.

Religion did help.

As we learn more about our universe, the traditional models are being challenged.  We see a decline in the attendance at traditional Western-based organized religious institutes.

And when you die, you probably will not find out either.

 :-\
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2009, 12:05:02 PM »
There is no need dear Pecan to attempt to justify the existence of something that does not exist...futility.

Good point.

On the other hand, if you insist and telling believers that God doh exist, then you better have proof for us doubting Thomas' because we eh go believe you jess because you say so.

I feel God might be Canadian too. :angel:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 12:15:42 PM »
There is no need dear Pecan to attempt to justify the existence of something that does not exist...futility.

Good point.

On the other hand, if you insist and telling believers that God doh exist, then you better have proof for us doubting Thomas' because we eh go believe you jess because you say so.

I feel God might be Canadian too. :angel:

God the son is probably Canadian, de father however is PURE 100% Yankee!

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 02:41:33 PM »
I fi clone myself does that cloned person have a soul?

If the original has a soul then the clone will too. If the original does not have a soul neither will the clone.





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truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 07:07:48 PM »
I fi clone myself does that cloned person have a soul?

If the original has a soul then the clone will too. If the original does not have a soul neither will the clone.







good answer, but wey de soul coming from.

I have been called a soul less heartless f**ker by about 12 woman this last year.

So maybe my clone go be jes like me.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 07:35:07 PM »
Yuh breaking too quick....the question is do you believe we have a soul or not.
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truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 07:47:01 PM »
Yuh breaking too quick....the question is do you believe we have a soul or not.

who come first win breds.....what yuh mean breaking to quick?

I doh believe man has a soul....no!

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2009, 07:57:10 PM »
Yuh breaking too quick....the question is do you believe we have a soul or not.

who come first win breds.....what yuh mean breaking to quick?

I doh believe man has a soul....no!

Before you determine what a soul is you have to define it. What is the definition of a soul to you?

I believe humans have a soul but it does not neccessarily have anything to do with God or any higher power.
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Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2009, 07:57:45 PM »
Yuh breaking too quick....the question is do you believe we have a soul or not.

who come first win breds.....what yuh mean breaking to quick?

I doh believe man has a soul....no!
when yuh dead that is that.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline ribbit

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 11:52:23 AM »
God made atheists too.  They should thank him.

GOD INVENTED BLUE JEANS, APPLE PIE AND THE INTERNET..HE IS AMERICAN!
That is your best argument to date for the non-existence of God   :devil:

oh and please present your best arguement for the existence of God, i'd love to hear the evidence.

if you can wrap my reasonable mind around the concept of their being some kind of father figure holy entity that created the inifinite space that is existence, and then also wrap me sensibly around the moral justifications of why he created a world with millions of people dying from war, starvation, aids, kids born with cancer? what about the billions of women and children that starve to death every day... comming into a world of poverty, suffering, neglect...

explain to me why i should have faith in this fairy tale god inspite of all of that, i wouldnt say i promote non belief, however, it angers me incredibly to see people just say shit like  "God created the universe" give me a real reason to believe it.


cuz so far, if i think as honestly and sensibly as i can to myself i feel like i am betraying anyone who suffers for believing that everything happens for a reason. I feel like its an excuse, a cop out... a way to help people sleep at night without tearing themselves aprt about the fact that people are dying everyday or suffering in various different ways that you could probably take a few minutes out of your day to help by some directly personal way or some indirect extension.

religion and the belief in God seems more pinned for being a coaxing tool of misguided hope and justification for controlling the will of mass amounts of people, "people" that are so vulnerable to hopes and promises.

people that will do anything to be secure and believe.


explain to me please what reason i have to believe other than to comfort myself??

in my opinion, there is no good argument for the existence of God.

It is a belief system i.e faith.

Just as there is no good argument for the non-existence of God.  Just the other side of the same coin.

Some people function quite well believing in God just as some people function quite well not believing.

I began to believe in God to hedge my bets (Pascal Wager or Gambit).  I was being pragmatic - oh, another pragmatic reason for believing is that religious believers tend to be happier than atheists

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08031807.html

But I contemplated the world around me, I began to accept the existence of a God because I refused to believe that the complexity of the universe 'just happened' by itself.  Yeah, I know that this begs the question, who created God? etc. Perhaps another God created this God an so on.  This logic is consistent with the concept of infinity which is a fundamental concept in mathematics.

Keep in mind,

I do not believe in destiny i.e everything happens for a reason  - I reject that logic.  The universe is random.

I do not believe in the Bible verbatim - that is just a history of how man has perceived God over the last 10,000 years.

I reject the use of religion to control people, the same way I reject how many non-religious leaders have controlled people

if you can wrap my reasonable mind around the concept of their being some kind of father figure holy entity that created the inifinite space that is existence, and then also wrap me sensibly around the moral justifications of why he created a world with millions of people dying from war, starvation, aids, kids born with cancer? what about the billions of women and children that starve to death every day... comming into a world of poverty, suffering, neglect...

Because the alternative does not make sense.  What would be the purpose of existing? 

In my view of God (which many fundamentalists would reject), the universe was set in motion and unfolds according to the laws of physics.

How we live within that chaos give a modicum of reason for existence.

Let say there is no God, we still have millions of people dying everyday etc.  So we have two choice - believe or not believe.  I chose to believe.  You don't.   I don't get angry with you for not believing so there is no need for you to be angry with me for saying GOd created the Universe.

WE BOTH DO NOT HAVE PROOF.

pecan, how does your view of belief, articulated above, square with the notion of an "all-knowing" God that presumably knows what you believe? can one both "believe" and entertain reasonable doubt with this condition of transparency?

Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 09:17:25 PM »
Col salty

Not sure if I fully understand the question but here goes (somewhat long post - I got carried away).


I think doubting (if that is what you mean by reasonable doubt) the existence of God is not necessarily unhealthy (sorry lots of negatives in that statement).

If we believe everything at face value, then we become docile creatures with no free will.

When we challenge things, we improve our understanding and it allows us to make a more informed decision (at least I hope so).  That is why I have no problem with non-believers.

As far as an all knowing God, that raises the question if God is governed by the laws of this universe?  Does God operate outside or inside the universe?  

If God is all knowing that implies a knowledge of the future. Does present day knowledge of physics allow us to see into the future?  I seem to recall that Physicist Richard Feynman postulated that some sub-atomic particles can travel back in time (but that was a few decades ago and I have not kept pace with the latest in physics). But as far as I know, the future is unknown.  All knowing suggests that God operates outside the universe i.e.  God can see into the future.

And if God can see into the future thus knowing the outcome of any event, then why would God bother to create a universe?  Many would argue this logic suggests that God does not exist.  i.e. What is the purpose of life if all is pre-determined?  Does not make sense therefore there is no God.

However, another look at this is that God created a universe that is based on probability. God may be all knowing only so far as what the possible outcomes might be rather that what they will be.  I think this is one aspect of the laws of physics that troubled Einstein.  He is reported to have said that "God does not play dice with the universe".  I however would like to believe that our universe is predicated on statistical outcome and probability.  That any event may have infinite outcomes and God may be able to identify each outcome, but the actual outcome depends on the factors that may influence the event. If those are the rules God made, then the rules must be followed.  Otherwise, why cheat at your own game?

What I have said is not based on any scientific fact or religious scripture, it is solely my philosophy and represents a rationale that makes me feel at ease with who I am and the role a God plays in my life.  The universe will unfold and outcome will be affected by free will and random chance.  What we make of it is what determines our character and this gives meaning to our existence.  Some may argue it is a cop-out.

But this line of though allows me to reconcile the horrors of the world and the role of God in our existence.

For now, I believe that there is a supreme creator.  Some may call that creator God.  Some may call it a form of higher intelligence.  A sufficiently backwards society will called advanced technology,  magic or the works of a God.

I think many people get tied up with God by confusing Organized Religion with Spirituality.  However, organized religion can be good if we examine scripture and use that as a tool to better understand a set of values and mores that govern society and to apply these lessons to a changing society.

I am willing to accept the Divinity of Christ because it does me no harm and it gives me comfort.  In fact, Jesus' teachings are quite insightful and I have no problems in stating that if we all lived as Jesus suggested, we would have no wars.  And you do not have to believe in God to live by a set of rules that are very pragmatic.  In fact, if you follow Buddha or for that matter, live the life of a true humanist, the outcome will be no different.

Religious leaders have used religion as a tool to gain power.  But non-religious leaders have also used other tools to gain power.  The common denominator is the search for Power.  

Religion is not the problem.  Belief in God is not the problem.   Man's quest for power and control is the problem.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2009, 09:47:12 PM »
GOD IS LOVE ,GOD IS LOVE and my GOD love me
.
good things happening to good people: a good thing
good things happening to bad people: a bad thing
bad things happening to good people: a bad thing
bad things happening to bad people: a good thing

truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2009, 07:14:41 AM »
I fi clone myself does that cloned person have a soul?

If the original has a soul then the clone will too. If the original does not have a soul neither will the clone.

So zando...explain to de 7th standard dunce nah...de soul is as physical as the body?  It is cognizant of matter?

So much so dat yuh could actually clone de soul too/  I always heard tell that the soul was etheral?  I am wrong?


anyway:   Posted  Tuesday, February 03, 2009 1:00 PM
Human Clones: One Step Closer
Sharon Begley

The science of cloning and stem cells has been somewhat of an unholy mess, what with fraudulent claims (by a South Korean biologist) of generating custom-made stem cells lines and, sigh, of producing a baby through cloning. (The little cloned boy should be 5 now; we wish him well in kindergarten.) The latest advance therefore shouldn’t inspire headlines about cloned babies being right around the corner, but here goes: scientists have transferred DNA from an adult human cell into a human egg, and made the egg to “reprogram” the donor DNA back to its embryonic state, producing a pattern of gene activation like that in normal IVF embryos--and therefore, it seems, the pattern necessary to create an embryo.

 

What this means, in a nutshell, is that if the study holds up, it will look increasingly likely that there are no known technical obstacles to reproductive cloning, the creation of human clones not for stem cells (in which case the clone never gets further than a days-old ball of cells) but for babies.
Advertisement

 

When they began their experiments, scientists led by Robert Lanza, chief scientific officer of the biotech company Advanced Cell Technology, had no such goal in mind. They just wanted to see whether putting adult human DNA into (non-human) animal eggs would send the DNA back in time, so to speak, to its embryonic stage. Such “reprogramming” could, in theory, produce a days-old ball of cells from which scientists could extract stem cells that, with some coaxing, could be used to treat patients with diabetes, spinal cord injury, Parkinson’s disease and other ailments. If the DNA came from the patient himself, the stem cells would be perfect and personalized genetic matches, eliminating the risk that they would be rejected by the recipient's immune system.

 

The reason human DNA would be put into animal eggs rather than human eggs is that the latter are hard to get. Harvard’s Kevin Eggan, for one, has described “stomping around to different disease advocacy groups, tea circles, knitting circles, trying to find anyone and everyone who would donate their oocytes,” to little avail. The new study throws cold water on the hope of using animal ova.

 

The scientists used standard methods to transfer DNA from adult human cells into ova (human, cow and rabbit) whose own DNA had been sucked out. All three kinds of ova yielded about the same success rate in getting the ovum to divide like a fertilized egg  (39%, 36% and 36%, respectively, formed balls of 12 to 32 cells). But when the scientists tested these embryos to see which genes were active, they found a stark difference. The pattern “was dramatically different” in embryos created from human ova and from cow or rabbit ova, they report online ahead of print in the journal Cloning and Stem Cells. The human-human clones had gene activity patterns that matched those of normal embryos created at IVF clinics—that is, they seemed to follow the recipe for baby making in that the adult donor DNA had been reprogrammed back to an embryonic state. The human-animal hybrids had a different pattern, Lanza told me: “The donor DNA just wasn’t being reprogrammed.”

 

Several key genes were activated in the human-human clones but not the human-animal ones. Called Oct-4, Sox-2 and nanog, they seem to be the keys to directing the entire genome to revert to the embryonic state necessary to create both stem cells and babies. Called pluripotency genes, they had been “effectively silenced” in the human-animal hybrids, said Lanza, making it impossible for the hybrid to produce stem cells. “These data call into question the potential use of [animal ova] to generate patient-specific stem cells,” the scientists conclude.

 

Now about those human embryos. There have been several previous claims (such as one in 2001, by a team that included Lanza, and one last year by a company in California called Stemagen). But although some of the balls of cells looked normal (others did not), there was no molecular evidence that the donor DNA had been reprogrammed back to an embryonic state. In the new study, gene chips that test for DNA expression confirmed that the donor DNA had been reprogrammed to a state “very similar to normal IVF embryos,” said Lanza. “This is the first real evidence that the donor DNA is reprogrammed, and the first time anyone has furnished hard evidence that human cloning is indeed possible, at least in terms of proving that the donor human cell was actually reprogrammed.”

 

Ian Wilmut, who led the team that cloned Dolly the sheep in 1997, the first mammalian clone, is now director of the MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine at the University of Edinburgh. He told me in an email that the study underlines “an important difference in gene expression from transferred human nuclei depending upon whether they were transferred into a human oocyte or a non-human oocyte.” Although it does not “absolutely rule out the use of animal oocytes, . . . the balance of probability is that transfer into human oocytes is more likely to work” for generating therapeutic stem cells.

 
And if Lanza and his team are right, the idea that nature erects insurmountable barriers to human cloning will seem like a misplaced hope.

truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2009, 07:16:05 AM »

Offline ribbit

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2009, 10:31:13 AM »
Col salty

Not sure if I fully understand the question but here goes (somewhat long post - I got carried away).


I think doubting (if that is what you mean by reasonable doubt) the existence of God is not necessarily unhealthy (sorry lots of negatives in that statement).

If we believe everything at face value, then we become docile creatures with no free will.

When we challenge things, we improve our understanding and it allows us to make a more informed decision (at least I hope so).  That is why I have no problem with non-believers.

As far as an all knowing God, that raises the question if God is governed by the laws of this universe?  Does God operate outside or inside the universe?  

If God is all knowing that implies a knowledge of the future. Does present day knowledge of physics allow us to see into the future?  I seem to recall that Physicist Richard Feynman postulated that some sub-atomic particles can travel back in time (but that was a few decades ago and I have not kept pace with the latest in physics). But as far as I know, the future is unknown.  All knowing suggests that God operates outside the universe i.e.  God can see into the future.

And if God can see into the future thus knowing the outcome of any event, then why would God bother to create a universe?  Many would argue this logic suggests that God does not exist.  i.e. What is the purpose of life if all is pre-determined?  Does not make sense therefore there is no God.

However, another look at this is that God created a universe that is based on probability. God may be all knowing only so far as what the possible outcomes might be rather that what they will be.  I think this is one aspect of the laws of physics that troubled Einstein.  He is reported to have said that "God does not play dice with the universe".  I however would like to believe that our universe is predicated on statistical outcome and probability.  That any event may have infinite outcomes and God may be able to identify each outcome, but the actual outcome depends on the factors that may influence the event. If those are the rules God made, then the rules must be followed.  Otherwise, why cheat at your own game?

What I have said is not based on any scientific fact or religious scripture, it is solely my philosophy and represents a rationale that makes me feel at ease with who I am and the role a God plays in my life.  The universe will unfold and outcome will be affected by free will and random chance.  What we make of it is what determines our character and this gives meaning to our existence.  Some may argue it is a cop-out.

But this line of though allows me to reconcile the horrors of the world and the role of God in our existence.

For now, I believe that there is a supreme creator.  Some may call that creator God.  Some may call it a form of higher intelligence.  A sufficiently backwards society will called advanced technology,  magic or the works of a God.

I think many people get tied up with God by confusing Organized Religion with Spirituality.  However, organized religion can be good if we examine scripture and use that as a tool to better understand a set of values and mores that govern society and to apply these lessons to a changing society.

I am willing to accept the Divinity of Christ because it does me no harm and it gives me comfort.  In fact, Jesus' teachings are quite insightful and I have no problems in stating that if we all lived as Jesus suggested, we would have no wars.  And you do not have to believe in God to live by a set of rules that are very pragmatic.  In fact, if you follow Buddha or for that matter, live the life of a true humanist, the outcome will be no different.

Religious leaders have used religion as a tool to gain power.  But non-religious leaders have also used other tools to gain power.  The common denominator is the search for Power.  

Religion is not the problem.  Belief in God is not the problem.   Man's quest for power and control is the problem.



pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2009, 10:54:06 AM »
Quote
pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

I hope meh flame retardent drawers wukking real good oui...

Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2009, 12:30:37 PM »


pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

I took a quick look at that link.

The problem I have with those sort or arguments is that they are circular.

They quote the Bible to prove what is said in the Bible is true. Circular.

An argument is circular if the conclusion is in the premise.


i.e.

"God exists, because the Word of God tells us so."  That my friend is circular reasoning.


Edit - here is a better example

The 'Word of God' is true because it is in the Bible.
The Bible is true because it contain the 'Word of God'.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:53:06 PM by pecan »
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Offline ribbit

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2009, 09:52:17 PM »


pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

I took a quick look at that link.

The problem I have with those sort or arguments is that they are circular.

They quote the Bible to prove what is said in the Bible is true. Circular.

An argument is circular if the conclusion is in the premise.


i.e.

"God exists, because the Word of God tells us so."  That my friend is circular reasoning.


Edit - here is a better example

The 'Word of God' is true because it is in the Bible.
The Bible is true because it contain the 'Word of God'.




yes, i think i see your point - the Bible is one point of reference into the nature of God and certainly its validity is debateable.

still, for me, the narrower issue of whether God can know "intent" has wider implications. if we accept the premise, then God really "knows" whether we believe. if we don't accept the premise, then there are limits to this God. e.g. what kind of judgement is this God capable of? is it the arbitrary justice of the old testament, or a strict legalistic moral calculus or some ridiculous "lance ito" in the sky?

back to the question of believing in God. if the basis for belief is not the Bible or religion or empirical or deductive evidence, then where is the belief drawn from? one prominent source is the mass of people that say that they believe in a God. in malcolm gladwell's the tipping point, he describes a sociological experiment where a small group of people are instructed to stand on a street corner and stare up at the sky. sure enough, after a period of time the number grows as people take the lead of the original sky-watchers. is belief in God more substantial than this experiment? to use richard dawkin's parlance, is God more than a (long-lived) meme?

the other source is personal experience. this to me seems the only real argument for belief in God.

Offline Bakes

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2009, 10:37:48 PM »
I fi clone myself does that cloned person have a soul?

If the original has a soul then the clone will too. If the original does not have a soul neither will the clone.

Disagree.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2009, 02:26:27 AM »
I fi clone myself does that cloned person have a soul?

If the original has a soul then the clone will too. If the original does not have a soul neither will the clone.

Disagree.

How so?
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Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2009, 06:40:16 AM »


pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

I took a quick look at that link.

The problem I have with those sort or arguments is that they are circular.

They quote the Bible to prove what is said in the Bible is true. Circular.

An argument is circular if the conclusion is in the premise.


i.e.

"God exists, because the Word of God tells us so."  That my friend is circular reasoning.


Edit - here is a better example

The 'Word of God' is true because it is in the Bible.
The Bible is true because it contain the 'Word of God'.




yes, i think i see your point - the Bible is one point of reference into the nature of God and certainly its validity is debateable.

still, for me, the narrower issue of whether God can know "intent" has wider implications. if we accept the premise, then God really "knows" whether we believe. if we don't accept the premise, then there are limits to this God. e.g. what kind of judgement is this God capable of? is it the arbitrary justice of the old testament, or a strict legalistic moral calculus or some ridiculous "lance ito" in the sky?

back to the question of believing in God. if the basis for belief is not the Bible or religion or empirical or deductive evidence, then where is the belief drawn from? one prominent source is the mass of people that say that they believe in a God. in malcolm gladwell's the tipping point, he describes a sociological experiment where a small group of people are instructed to stand on a street corner and stare up at the sky. sure enough, after a period of time the number grows as people take the lead of the original sky-watchers. is belief in God more substantial than this experiment? to use richard dawkin's parlance, is God more than a (long-lived) meme?

the other source is personal experience. this to me seems the only real argument for belief in God.

no doubt, I came to know of God through my parents.  My upbringing was steeped in the Anglican and the Roman Catholic churches with a sprinkling of Islam.  I have a copy of Richard Dawkings "The God Delusion" sitting on my desk.  I have not read it yet.  Perhaps I am afraid of what light he will shed on my belief.

Throughout man's history, religions have been created to explain the unexplained.  Primitive tribes in remote places all seem to gravitate to the existence of a God (Lance Ito  - O.J's God? :rotfl:).  Those earlier believers did not come to that belief by following someone else  - they did it independently of other groups.

I once read that the brain is 'hardwired' to pray.  When we pray, beneficial chemicals are produced which create a sense of well being and calm.  Perhaps, believing is part of a evolutionary trait that promoted survival in extreme and hostile conditions.

I like your last sentence.   My belief is based on personal experience (not to say that I have had an conversion like St. Paul or that the holy spirit has entered my life with blaring trumpets).  Rather, it has been one of evolution through personal observations of the world around me.  I have to admit that I take issue with those believers whose belief is narrowly based on the old testament.

At this point in my life, I have a strong belief in God.  But that God is not the God of the old Testament. In fact, I think that my God is limited because he/she/it built a Universe that has limitations.  Maybe we are a failed experiment.

My quest continues.









« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 06:41:52 AM by pecan »
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truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2009, 07:06:40 AM »
So Pecan your God is a scientist and this earth is His lab and we {all creatures great and small} are lab rats?

Its funny how a book written by a man can shake your faith (possibly Dawkings' Book) yet that same belief has been developed through another book written by men (bible and Catholic books)

Offline Swima

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2009, 07:35:44 AM »
One small contribution to the topic. We do not know for sure what great power has caused us and our universe to come into being. Some theorists even talk about multiple universes (oxymoron noted) existing.

That being said, we are here, we are real and no one has reported on what exists beyond death and none of us can remember first hand what occurred before we were born. Does that mean that our existence consists only within this small window? Who knows? The truth is, we may never be meant to know while we are here. But in our minds our existence is significant enough to have us believe that we are supposed to be here; that somehow, we are here for a purpose. Each and every one of us. If that is the case, how is that purpose designed? Even the unborn baby who dies has purpose and effect to its mother at the very least. To whom or what do we attribute our existence? I do not mean you or me. I mean our known universe, and while we are at it, where does that, he, she or it begin? Will it end and if so, will its end be infinite or will it restart and in a mega-zillion years plus one, we shall all be having this conversation again?

My point is, we do not know for sure, but I rather enjoy life for the most part and to whomever I should direct my gratitude, I try to do it regularly. My life is the only one I know and I would rather know that I attempted to be gracious when I had the chance rather than not at all.
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Offline kounty

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2009, 10:16:16 AM »
TT waiz dah one (the original article I talking about)?  dat seem like some doomsday BS like a primitive religion.  does this religion you pushin tell us anything about the point of anything? or it just a description of things?

Offline Bakes

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2009, 10:29:53 AM »
How so?

Not every life has a soul, the soul (as I see it) is the spiritual manifestation of God within us, the literal breath of God which first animates us and then sustains us thereafter.  I see life cloned in a laboratory as not necessarily being from God, he may allow it, but he did not 'create' it.  As such it is discretionary whether the cloned life would have the gift of the same soul as one of his creations.  It may or may not and whether it does depends not upon the status of the soul in donor, but rather upon the grace of God.

truetrini

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2009, 10:36:15 AM »
One small contribution to the topic. We do not know for sure what great power has caused us and our universe to come into being. Some theorists even talk about multiple universes (oxymoron noted) existing.

That being said, we are here, we are real and no one has reported on what exists beyond death and none of us can remember first hand what occurred before we were born. Does that mean that our existence consists only within this small window? Who knows? The truth is, we may never be meant to know while we are here. But in our minds our existence is significant enough to have us believe that we are supposed to be here; that somehow, we are here for a purpose. Each and every one of us. If that is the case, how is that purpose designed? Even the unborn baby who dies has purpose and effect to its mother at the very least. To whom or what do we attribute our existence? I do not mean you or me. I mean our known universe, and while we are at it, where does that, he, she or it begin? Will it end and if so, will its end be infinite or will it restart and in a mega-zillion years plus one, we shall all be having this conversation again?

My point is, we do not know for sure, but I rather enjoy life for the most part and to whomever I should direct my gratitude, I try to do it regularly. My life is the only one I know and I would rather know that I attempted to be gracious when I had the chance rather than not at all.

Swima yuh is meh boy from long time, I glad to see you pop in every so often, yuh does make de contributions strong and thought provoking.

If you look around this universe, there is great power at work constantly.  You are right, no one knows how it began, but to suggest that some greater "BEING" is responsible is speculative and hard for me to swallow.

Physical science  (Newton) has already shown that for every action.....you know the rest (AXIOMATA sive LEGES MOTUS!) Cause and effect has nothing to do with a great god in the sky!  

As far as multiple planes of existence is concerned, there is much heated debate (actually re-debates) on that part of Quantum Physics.   I am unsire how you came to the conclusion that somehow we were meant to be here.  It seems to be a random event caused by galatic forces (in my opinion).  The religious leaders have programmed that train of thought that we are somehow placed here by a God in the sky, to live this human life, find God and return to Him via an ethereal spirit after we die and judgement day comes.   (does judgement day come when we die or sometime after?)  Purpose is designed by man.  It is the quest to better of lives through medicine, science and arts.  Some may care to add spirituality, I decline as I find it futile to believe in a God that is so distant and aloof, that if we don't cater to His whims we are cast into Hell fire for all eternity to be tortured by one of His other creations...malarkey!

It is not quite clear as yet! if our Universe, or the other universes will all die, what is known thus far is that they will die!  

One may care to argue that if the death of planets and stars results in the creation of something new, then the same can be held true for human life, that when our time ends on this plane of existence it continues elsewhere.  

Jesus was said to have stated " a seed must die for a plant to grow (paraphrasing).  But as far as planets and suns go, when they die, they start anew as something ele, but the essential elements remain the same, just reordered as something else.

If that was the case with humans then i would be forced to admit that they have some spirit/soul component, something I am not prepared to do!

Enjoy your life, make the lives of others better, pray to your Higher being, and give thanks.

I choose not to pray, but I do give thanks though!

side bar:  Kounty Killer Science is not a doomsday cult.  Christianity is!


Offline Bakes

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2009, 10:37:15 AM »
One small contribution to the topic. We do not know for sure what great power has caused us and our universe to come into being. Some theorists even talk about multiple universes (oxymoron noted) existing.

That being said, we are here, we are real and no one has reported on what exists beyond death and none of us can remember first hand what occurred before we were born. Does that mean that our existence consists only within this small window? Who knows? The truth is, we may never be meant to know while we are here. But in our minds our existence is significant enough to have us believe that we are supposed to be here; that somehow, we are here for a purpose. Each and every one of us. If that is the case, how is that purpose designed? Even the unborn baby who dies has purpose and effect to its mother at the very least. To whom or what do we attribute our existence? I do not mean you or me. I mean our known universe, and while we are at it, where does that, he, she or it begin? Will it end and if so, will its end be infinite or will it restart and in a mega-zillion years plus one, we shall all be having this conversation again?

My point is, we do not know for sure, but I rather enjoy life for the most part and to whomever I should direct my gratitude, I try to do it regularly. My life is the only one I know and I would rather know that I attempted to be gracious when I had the chance rather than not at all.

Doh be so deferential man... big post.

Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2009, 11:45:49 AM »
So Pecan your God is a scientist and this earth is His lab and we {all creatures great and small} are lab rats?

Its funny how a book written by a man can shake your faith (possibly Dawkings' Book) yet that same belief has been developed through another book written by men (bible and Catholic books)

nah man .. I think you missing my point

You believe with 100% certainty that God does not exist.  I.e the issue is settled.

I on the other hand, do not think that the issue is settled.  That is why I will try to absorb as many view points as possible and come to a conclusion based the logic of the arguments.

You might recall that I maintain that the Bible is Man's perspective of God and reflects the thinking of the era in which it was written.  And yes, the Bible has already shaken my faith in God. Likewise, Dawkins and Hitchens et al also reflect a certain line of thought.  So there is no shame in saying that my belief system may be shaken as I learn more.

Right now, believing makes more sense for me in the psychological mind set that I find myself at this stage in my life.

And conversely, not believing makes more sense for you.







You jess like Al Gore and Susuki and the UN Intergovernmental Panel .

You make up your mind and proclaim that the science or issue is settled.

You refuse to consider alternative hypotheses.

Another circular argument.  I say so because I say so, therefore I must me right because I say so.

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Once day, a Canadian Goose go fly up yuh backside and you go wonder if God or a Canadian sent it or if it was a random act. :devil: :devil:




« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:49:30 AM by pecan »
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2009, 11:47:38 AM »
How so?

Not every life has a soul, the soul (as I see it) is the spiritual manifestation of God within us, the literal breath of God which first animates us and then sustains us thereafter.  I see life cloned in a laboratory as not necessarily being from God, he may allow it, but he did not 'create' it.  As such it is discretionary whether the cloned life would have the gift of the same soul as one of his creations.  It may or may not and whether it does depends not upon the status of the soul in donor, but rather upon the grace of God.

Interesting argument. But is life really "created" every time someone has sex?  God does be blowing down man back every time they break in a woman belly?

Life is not "created", it is a PROCESS. But I would argue that the gift of the soul is inherent within the process of birth and conception itself because God's hand is present throughout, from the union of love between man and woman, the deep desire to form and raise a family, right up to all the complex chemistry required for the single-celled union of sperm and egg to develop arms, legs, brains etc. My point is that ALL children are born with a soul or with the capacity to seek a close spiritual relationship with God, and this capacity is inherent within the processes of life and death, regardless of whether you were concieved in the backseat of a Chevy or in a test tube.


The slippery slope inherent in your argument is that a child born through cloning or other forms of assisted reproduction is somehow a lesser and more diminshed child than children born through the "normal" way.  And if the gift of a soul is discretionary, not every child born through sex will neccessarily have a soul either.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:18:10 PM by ZANDOLIE »
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Offline pecan

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Re: How will the solar system end?
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2009, 12:13:44 PM »
One small contribution to the topic. We do not know for sure what great power has caused us and our universe to come into being. Some theorists even talk about multiple universes (oxymoron noted) existing.

That being said, we are here, we are real and no one has reported on what exists beyond death and none of us can remember first hand what occurred before we were born. Does that mean that our existence consists only within this small window? Who knows? The truth is, we may never be meant to know while we are here. But in our minds our existence is significant enough to have us believe that we are supposed to be here; that somehow, we are here for a purpose. Each and every one of us. If that is the case, how is that purpose designed? Even the unborn baby who dies has purpose and effect to its mother at the very least. To whom or what do we attribute our existence? I do not mean you or me. I mean our known universe, and while we are at it, where does that, he, she or it begin? Will it end and if so, will its end be infinite or will it restart and in a mega-zillion years plus one, we shall all be having this conversation again?

My point is, we do not know for sure, but I rather enjoy life for the most part and to whomever I should direct my gratitude, I try to do it regularly. My life is the only one I know and I would rather know that I attempted to be gracious when I had the chance rather than not at all.

Exactly!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

 

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