General > General Discussion
Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
elan:
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
By Mark Osler, Special to CNN
I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.
What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.
A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.
During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.
After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.
Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).
His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.
It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.
Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.
The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.
The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!
I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.
The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.
At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.
I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.
It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.
The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
Preacher:
Somebody give this writer a leg, two eyes and a Strong's Concordance please.
Here is the love in action and Jesus' stand on sin. Some preachers caught a woman having sex with a fella that is not her husband. They let the man go and bring the woman. They tell Jesus, the woman should be stoned according to the law, which was Jewish law. What did Jesus do? Well since he is the Real Law/Word in the flesh. He asked a simple question. "Which one of allyuh never do anything wrong?" "If you never do anything wrong, then pelt first." No one pelt, they dropped their rocks and left. Jesus turned to the woman...and this is the important part...this is the love... Because he could have stoned her. See? He says...No one is condemning you and I'm not condemning you.
Two things
1. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Seeing it in action
2. Is that all he said? Heck No!!!! He also said to her "Stop doing that."
God can't help you if He can't speak to your lifestyle. See, people want God love but God can't tell them to "stop doing that." If that's the case then you are condemned by your actions and Jesus can't help you. So must people try to twist the bible into a free for all and call it love.
This is how it works.
For God so love the world (including hypocrite preachers, rapists, child molesters and gays) that He gave his only son that whoever, believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life. What more you want? The bible says "For while we were yet sinners/God's enemy, Christ died for us." While we were God's enemy and deserved death he died for us.
God loves all people including professing and practicing gays. But His response is simply, stop doing that. If Jesus=Word can't speak to you on this issue then brace yourself for this.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
He is the Ruler...He sets the laws and the boundaries. So if you don't like it in His kingdom you free to go work for the other guy.
elan:
Preacher, I understand what you say, but I think you miss the point the writer trying to get across.
Bakes:
--- Quote from: Preacher on May 21, 2012, 06:57:49 PM ---Somebody give this writer a leg, two eyes and a Strong's Concordance please.
Here is the love in action and Jesus' stand on sin. Some preachers caught a woman having sex with a fella that is not her husband. They let the man go and bring the woman. They tell Jesus, the woman should be stoned according to the law, which was Jewish law. What did Jesus do? Well since he is the Real Law/Word in the flesh. He asked a simple question. "Which one of allyuh never do anything wrong?" "If you never do anything wrong, then pelt first." No one pelt, they dropped their rocks and left. Jesus turned to the woman...and this is the important part...this is the love... Because he could have stoned her. See? He says...No one is condemning you and I'm not condemning you.
Two things
1. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Seeing it in action
2. Is that all he said? Heck No!!!! He also said to her "Stop doing that."
God can't help you if He can't speak to your lifestyle. See, people want God love but God can't tell them to "stop doing that." If that's the case then you are condemned by your actions and Jesus can't help you. So must people try to twist the bible into a free for all and call it love.
This is how it works.
For God so love the world (including hypocrite preachers, rapists, child molesters and gays) that He gave his only son that whoever, believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life. What more you want? The bible says "For while we were yet sinners/God's enemy, Christ died for us." While we were God's enemy and deserved death he died for us.
God loves all people including professing and practicing gays. But His response is simply, stop doing that. If Jesus=Word can't speak to you on this issue then brace yourself for this.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
He is the Ruler...He sets the laws and the boundaries. So if you don't like it in His kingdom you free to go work for the other guy.
--- End quote ---
How does this relate to gays or gay marriage? Just asking.
Preacher:
--- Quote from: elan on May 21, 2012, 07:04:29 PM ---Preacher, I understand what you say, but I think you miss the point the writer trying to get across.
--- End quote ---
Maybe so, but my sense is that he's Lutheran. This is based on how he lumps baptism, communion and marriage together as stuff that the church offers. I've worked with Lutherans extensively and know several pastors and churches that have broken away on their main denomination because of ordination of Gay ministers etc. I have many Lutheran friends, nice people but they run their faith like a check list. For example, all stats show that when Lutheran youth get confirmed(check), high percentage leave their faith behind until they are ready to settle down, if that. Why is this important? Well, denominations that view and handle biblical institutions as a check list are more likely to lose the value and purpose of said institutions. And when that happens anything goes. And of course he attempts to qualify his views by leading with "I am a Christian." Sadly, in America that means nothing. So I may have gone a bit long Elan, on my reply, sorry. :)
I hope I was able to show from the bible, that God loves people regardless of their issues. But he hates sin. Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible. So how can an entity that claims belief in the bible/Word of God/Jesus, endorse it in a ceremony that this entity has professed for centuries to be before man and the same God that gave us the bible? Sure an argument can be made that this document was tainted by men. But I think that the historical Jesus resolves that argument by endorsing it over and over. It's believable that the God that said to the Sun and Moon, "Stay," could preserve His word if that is His intent. Because of what I've seen in nature, backed up by scripture, I believe scripture is God's Word to men. The only place left for anyone who wants to argue with the scripture on the matter is to not believe in God at all.
Long again. :)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version