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Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
truetrini:
Exodus 21:2
If thou buy an Hebrew servant....
Exodus 21:7
If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....
Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Exodus 22:3
If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Leviticus 22:11
If the priest buy any soul with his money....
Leviticus 25:39
And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee....
Leviticus 25:44-46
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.
Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
1 Timothy 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:9-10
Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
Anyone reading these in context must come to the conclusion that slavery and peonage is implicitly encouraged in the Bible.
ANyone making the argument that the Bible describes some form of "moral slavery," should read Leviticus 25:44-46 these verses proves otherwise that the bible is talking about something much different; namely, one man having the right to own another man (or woman or child) based on race or nationality.
"44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
Those who say that Pre New Testament slavery is different than New Testament slavery should take their time and feel free to look up the surrounding quotes to see if they add some sort of missing context that could possibly make sense of such a barbaric mentality!
--- Quote ---Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)
--- End quote ---
I decided to delve a bit into the early Church's attitudes towards slavery and I discovere a few things.
I set out to discover exactly what views early Church leaders had on the issue? I uncovered an almost universal approval of slavery among these leaders. But no only leaders, but early christians too defended slavery (along with other forms of extreme social stratification) as instituted by God and as being an integral part of the natural order of men. At all points, their reasoning was clearly and easily supported by the Bible passages quoted above.
Let us allow them to tell us in their very own words:
The slave should be resigned to his lot, in obeying his master he is obeying God... (Saint John Chrysostom)
...slavery is now penal in character and planned by that law which commands the preservation of the natural order and forbids disturbance. (Saint Augustine)
These thoughts, beliefs and attitudes continued throughout European history, even as the institution of slavery evolved and in most cases slaves became "serfs" - little better than actual slaves and living in a deplorable situation which the church declared as being divinely ordered.
Edmund Gibson, Anglican Bishop in London, made it clear in the 18th century that Christianity freed us from the slavery of sin, not from earthly and physical slavery:
--- Quote ---The Freedom which Christianity gives, is a Freedom from the Bondage of Sin and Satan, and from the Dominion of Men's Lusts and Passions and inordinate Desires; but as to their outward Condition, whatever that was before, whether bond or free, their being baptized, and becoming Christians, makes no manner of Change in it.
--- End quote ---
Even as recently as the 1950's and 60's, people claiming to be christians vehemently and vociferously opposed desegregation or "race-mixing" for religious reasons. They refer to the "curse" of poor Ham as they fought to maintain the status quo and the preservation of teh separation of the races.
I have read posts here and I see that some people assume the truth of what they believe. Their determination to see and discover some form of divine sanction for what thye believe is written in their Holy Book(s). It is my humble (yes seriously now) that these beleivers would be much betetr off if they tried todefend their ideas on their own merits, but I quite honestly doubt they are capable of it.
Perhaps they doubt themselves too, and that's why they don't try.
I refuse to ever accpet any kind form or sort of "common sense" defense of any biblical interpretation. Historically, the idea that one interpretation or the other is just "common sense" continues to be utilized as fact and the way it is or should be on myriad topics, including today's topic of slavery adn homosexuality. Defense of an interpretation can only be done via rational, logical argument. Unfortunately for some christians, that has been used effectively on every side of every issue, too - including today's topic of slavery.
Maybe that means that using the Bible isn't a valid defense of an idea? Could be...
FF:
--- Quote from: truetrini SC on July 20, 2012, 12:15:27 PM ---
I have read posts here and I see that some people assume the truth of what they believe. Their determination to see and discover some form of divine sanction for what thye believe is written in their Holy Book(s). It is my humble (yes seriously now) that these beleivers would be much betetr off if they tried todefend their ideas on their own merits, but I quite honestly doubt they are capable of it.
Perhaps they doubt themselves too, and that's why they don't try.
I refuse to ever accpet any kind form or sort of "common sense" defense of any biblical interpretation. Historically, the idea that one interpretation or the other is just "common sense" continues to be utilized as fact and the way it is or should be on myriad topics, including today's topic of slavery adn homosexuality. Defense of an interpretation can only be done via rational, logical argument. Unfortunately for some christians, that has been used effectively on every side of every issue, too - including today's topic of slavery.
Maybe that means that using the Bible isn't a valid defense of an idea? Could be...
--- End quote ---
papayo!
pecan:
--- Quote from: Toppa on July 19, 2012, 04:17:04 PM ---You have no point whatsoever. The only point you've ever had is that there are 'different interpretations' of the Bible. That's the defence you've been hiding behind this whole time.
Give me the 'different interpretation' for this:
What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom?+ Do not be misled. Neither fornicators,+ nor idolaters,+ nor adulterers,*+ nor men kept for unnatural purposes,+ nor men who lie with men,*+ 10 nor thieves, nor greedy+ persons, nor drunkards,+ nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom
--- End quote ---
Belittle me all you want .... there are millions of people who will disagree with your conclusions.
And what is this nonsense about hiding behind anything?
See Below for different interpretations of your version of 1 Corinthians 6 9-10, which I gather was obtained, word-for-word, including an exclamation mark and uppercase "YOU" from the Jehovah's Witness On line Bible.
Hmmm .. you a Jehovah Witness? They use to come to my house until I tried to make a deal with them. I said you come to my church one Sunday morning and I will invite you in to discuss the Bible. They never came back. I even offered them a book I was reading called "The Science of Good and Evil"
Anyway, back to the matter at hand ...
Some of these versions mention homosexuality explicitly, some don't.
Given the historical context of the time when the Bible was written, "lie with men" could have a variety of meanings.
Jehovah Witness New World Translation - word-for-word with your quote
9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.
21st Century King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
Common English Bible
9 Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse,[a] 10 thieves, the greedy, drunks, abusive people, and swindlers won’t inherit God’s kingdom.
American Standard Version
9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
GOD’ Word Translation
9 Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, 10 or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Darby Translation
9 Do ye not know that unrighteous [persons] shall not inherit [the] kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor abusive persons, nor [the] rapacious, shall inherit [the] kingdom of God.
King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Phillips New testament
9-11 Have you forgotten that the kingdom of God will never belong to the wicked? Don’t be under any illusion—neither the impure, the idolater or the adulterer; neither the effeminate, the pervert or the thief; neither the swindler, the drunkard, the foul-mouthed or the rapacious shall have any share in the kingdom of God.
The Message
9-11Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom
New Life Version
9 Do you not know that sinful men will have no place in the holy nation of God? Do not be fooled. A person who does sex sins, or who worships false gods, or who is not faithful in marriage, or men who act like women, or people who do sex sins with their own sex, will have no place in the holy nation of God. 10 Also those who steal, or those who always want to get more of everything, or who get drunk, or who say bad things about others, or take things that are not theirs, will have no place in the holy nation of God
NIV
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Wycliffe Bible
9 Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men,
10 neither thieves, neither avaricious men [neither covetous men, or niggards], neither men full of drunkenness, neither cursers, neither raveners, shall wield the kingdom of God.
Worldwide English
9-10 Do you not know that bad people will have no part in the kingdom where God rules? Do not be fooled. There are some people who will not have part in that place. They are those who commit adultery of any kind, those who have idols, or steal, or are always wanting more, or talk wrong things about people, or drink plenty of strong drink, or take things by force, or curse.
Young’s Literal Translation
9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.
pecan:
--- Quote from: FF on July 20, 2012, 12:25:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: truetrini SC on July 20, 2012, 12:15:27 PM ---
I have read posts here and I see that some people assume the truth of what they believe. Their determination to see and discover some form of divine sanction for what thye believe is written in their Holy Book(s). It is my humble (yes seriously now) that these beleivers would be much betetr off if they tried todefend their ideas on their own merits, but I quite honestly doubt they are capable of it.
Perhaps they doubt themselves too, and that's why they don't try.
I refuse to ever accpet any kind form or sort of "common sense" defense of any biblical interpretation. Historically, the idea that one interpretation or the other is just "common sense" continues to be utilized as fact and the way it is or should be on myriad topics, including today's topic of slavery adn homosexuality. Defense of an interpretation can only be done via rational, logical argument. Unfortunately for some christians, that has been used effectively on every side of every issue, too - including today's topic of slavery.
Maybe that means that using the Bible isn't a valid defense of an idea? Could be...
--- End quote ---
papayo!
--- End quote ---
TT, Mosaic Law explains everything. What part of that recursive argument don't you get?
truetrini:
All em big words like recursive and ting...the new test. and the old test. regards homosexuality as a sin as well as extolling slaves to be obedient...thanks to google yes ;)
What part of that you and Toppa doh get?
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