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Author Topic: wdf happening in syria?  (Read 20342 times)

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Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »
"...make Putin look like Mahatma.." You and all the want-Obama-to-fail drinking too much Cirok. As far as I am concern whether Putin in Boots handed Barak a lifeline to save face or Putin realize Barak could still the rockets with or without congressional approval are all mute. The fact is there appears to be a diplomatic solution. If he send rockets he is a warmonger, if he doesn't, then Putin outsmarted coward boy Barak, according to you all. What do you all want? You want this thing to be resolved or continued? Let the new initiative takes it course. And by the way, nominate your boy Putin-Boot for a Noble Piece of the Action Prize.

Deeks, you I would respond to, because you know how to have a civil discussion without the drama even though you may or may not agree with someone's comments.

Anyway, yes I am 'Anti-Obama'...I was also 'Anti-Bush', 'Anti-Clinton' (both of them...lol), 'Anti-Bush sr', Anti McCain, Anti Palin, and 'Anti-Romney...I don't agree with US policy.

The long and short of it is I've been paying taxes here in the US for over 20 years, and I am disgusted, tired, and angry about having to continually fund senseless wars, conflicts, military engagements (whatever people want to call them these days) with my hard-earned tax dollars.

Bredaman, if they want to continually engage in these missions, which ALWAYS seem to have another agenda which benefits the elite few (something that even former decorated US General and Us President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed in his televised farewell address in 1961), I don't want to pay for it.  Again, I am fed-up of funding Lockheeed Martin, Northtrop Gruman, Haliburton, Black Water, Exxon, and all the other parasites out there.

People, even the President's supporters, are getting fed-up of these wars. 
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Offline Deeks

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2013, 05:12:47 PM »
"...make Putin look like Mahatma.." You and all the want-Obama-to-fail drinking too much Cirok. As far as I am concern whether Putin in Boots handed Barak a lifeline to save face or Putin realize Barak could still the rockets with or without congressional approval are all mute. The fact is there appears to be a diplomatic solution. If he send rockets he is a warmonger, if he doesn't, then Putin outsmarted coward boy Barak, according to you all. What do you all want? You want this thing to be resolved or continued? Let the new initiative takes it course. And by the way, nominate your boy Putin-Boot for a Noble Piece of the Action Prize.

Deeks, you I would respond to, because you know how to have a civil discussion without the drama even though you may or may not agree with someone's comments.

Anyway, yes I am 'Anti-Obama'...I was also 'Anti-Bush', 'Anti-Clinton' (both of them...lol), 'Anti-Bush sr', Anti McCain, Anti Palin, and 'Anti-Romney...I don't agree with US policy.

The long and short of it is I've been paying taxes here in the US for over 20 years, and I am disgusted, tired, and angry about having to continually fund senseless wars, conflicts, military engagements (whatever people want to call them these days) with my hard-earned tax dollars.

Bredaman, if they want to continually engage in these missions, which ALWAYS seem to have another agenda which benefits the elite few (something that even former decorated US General and Us President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed in his televised farewell address in 1961), I don't want to pay for it.  Again, I am fed-up of funding Lockheeed Martin, Northtrop Gruman, Haliburton, Black Water, Exxon, and all the other parasites out there.

People, even the President's supporters, are getting fed-up of these wars. 

 Whether you like it or not, as long as you live in this country, you will be forever funding Lockheed, Northrop, Haliburton, etc. They are part of the military industrial complex that have a vice grip on the US economy. Your pension fund is probably invested in any one of those companies you mentioned above. If not you, most Americans have money invested in them.

The US love it's position as the"only" super in this world. And they will spend as much money as it takes to keeps its edge, at the expense of the lower middle class and people below.  They want to keep Russia exactly where they are. If Russia was such a humane country the Eastern block would have a more cordial relationship with them, and side with the Russians against the US. As Bakes mentioned, the Georgians can tell us about the friendly hands of the Russians. They want no part of that political system. After Jimmy Carter Iran experience, no Democratic president going to back off on Russia, China, Mid East etc. Clinton bomb Serbia after he was criticized for Rwanda. And he almost got Bin Laden in Sudan. Barak Bomb Gaddafi troops that allowed the rebels to take over. Each scenario is a bit different from the one before. In that case the president in charge at the time will approach the incident differently. But the results has to be the same, the US will always do what best for the US and of course Israel. You have to be both a madman and bobolee to want to be a US president.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 05:14:53 PM by Deeks »

Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2013, 05:22:32 PM »
"...make Putin look like Mahatma.." You and all the want-Obama-to-fail drinking too much Cirok. As far as I am concern whether Putin in Boots handed Barak a lifeline to save face or Putin realize Barak could still the rockets with or without congressional approval are all mute. The fact is there appears to be a diplomatic solution. If he send rockets he is a warmonger, if he doesn't, then Putin outsmarted coward boy Barak, according to you all. What do you all want? You want this thing to be resolved or continued? Let the new initiative takes it course. And by the way, nominate your boy Putin-Boot for a Noble Piece of the Action Prize.

Deeks, you I would respond to, because you know how to have a civil discussion without the drama even though you may or may not agree with someone's comments.

Anyway, yes I am 'Anti-Obama'...I was also 'Anti-Bush', 'Anti-Clinton' (both of them...lol), 'Anti-Bush sr', Anti McCain, Anti Palin, and 'Anti-Romney...I don't agree with US policy.

The long and short of it is I've been paying taxes here in the US for over 20 years, and I am disgusted, tired, and angry about having to continually fund senseless wars, conflicts, military engagements (whatever people want to call them these days) with my hard-earned tax dollars.

Bredaman, if they want to continually engage in these missions, which ALWAYS seem to have another agenda which benefits the elite few (something that even former decorated US General and Us President Dwight D. Eisenhower proclaimed in his televised farewell address in 1961), I don't want to pay for it.  Again, I am fed-up of funding Lockheeed Martin, Northtrop Gruman, Haliburton, Black Water, Exxon, and all the other parasites out there.

People, even the President's supporters, are getting fed-up of these wars. 

 Whether you like it or not, as long as you live in this country, you will be forever funding Lockheed, Northrop, Haliburton, etc. They are part of the military industrial complex that have a vice grip on the US economy. Your pension fund is probably invested in any one of those companies you mentioned above. If not you, most Americans have money invested in them.

The US love it's position as the"only" super in this world. And they will spend as much money as it takes to keeps its edge, at the expense of the lower middle class and people below.  They want to keep Russia exactly where they are. If Russia was such a humane country the Eastern block would have a more cordial relationship with them, and side with the Russians against the US. As Bakes mentioned, the Georgians can tell us about the friendly hands of the Russians. They want no part of that political system. After Jimmy Carter Iran experience, no Democratic president going to back off on Russia, China, Mid East etc. Clinton bomb Serbia after he was criticized for Rwanda. And he almost got Bin Laden in Sudan. Barak Bomb Gaddafi troops that allowed the rebels to take over. Each scenario is a bit different from the one before. In that case the president in charge at the time will approach the incident differently. But the results has to be the same, the US will always do what best for the US and of course Israel. You have to be both a madman and bobolee to want to be a US president.

Deeks --- You do realize that what you wrote up there is basically what I've already stated.  It's just that I've stated my disgust and disregard of that system. 

In addition, one of my earlier responses (the one in which the 'other' commenter highlighted, boldfaced, and underlined), I stated that 'there is much more to the story'.  I was being extremely 'brief' and gave a simplified explanation...and frankly wasn't looking to have a long discussion on the geopolitical nature of the issue on this forum...trust me, I've already been through MULTIPLE political debates online etc, so was just being simple and brief here...lol.

Bottom-line is, in lieu of going over every single aspect of the issue, and writing volumes of paragraphs and debate points on Syria, the Mid-East, and all of the geopolitical workings, I will just say again that these are policies I do not personally agree with.

Btw, I meant to add in my prior comment that not only do I not agree with US policy...but the same goes for my opinions on Russia, UK, China etc policies also. 

Again...I was just being simple and to the point to economize on words.    :beermug:
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 05:24:24 PM by OutsideMan »
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Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2013, 05:26:47 PM »
Everybody who says that the US should stand back and let the Syrian civil war play really don't know  or they playing they don't know mid East politics. Anything happening in Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon, Cyprus will alway draw in the US because of Israel. I will tell you, the Israelis don't need US congress approval to bomb. And as soon as one rocket mistakenly land in Israel is old mass. Allyuh think if the rebels win they will deal with Israel they way Assad does. Them go want to fight Israel and you know the Israelis eh backing down. So all of allyuh who think Obama was bluffing go right ahead. Obama does not want any 9-11 incident on his watch and he will probably have the air force shoot down a plane full of passengers who move to close to any federal bldgs to prove his point. I glad the Ruskies and Syrians come to their senses on the chemical weapons.

Deeks --- That is one way to sugar-coat all of the mis-steps Obama has made with the Syria issue...and the entirety of the crooked US/Israeli mis-deeds in the Mid-East.  Fact is, Israel by their actions in 1948 outrightly stealing land from the Palestinians, with the help of the UN, and the US staunch support of this behavior, is what has led to all the bad-blood in the region in the past 70 odd years. 

Prior to that, all of this tension in the region did not exist in the scale that it does today.  You have to thank the US and Israel for being the main culprits with their meddling ways and outlandish agenda.  There's lots of blame to go around even with the Arab nations...but the US and Israel have been a blight to EVERYONE in that region. 

You are correct of the past policies of the US and Euros are the cause of all this tension. The Euros and the American allowed the Euro-Jews to partitioned Palestine. Where did these Jews come from. All over Europe. The US now have to carry their baggage. I am no apologist for US or Obama policies. Barak just continuing what all American president do when Israel existence is threatened. And the next ones will do exactly the same.

Tell us what mistep barak has done. He drew a so called red line? So!!??

deeks, in all seriousness have you followed how this admin has handled the situations in egypt and libya? you are presuming that the team that obama has put together has the competence to come up with a good plan. it's glaring, particularly with egypt, obama et. al. are making it up as they go along. the onus is on the administration to justify their actions - which is why the grudging speech from his highness. you have it the wrong way around padnah.

and the reality is this plan of obama's is a joke on a few levels. it will be ineffective in the proclaimed aim of hampering syrian capabilities in any meaningful sense - unless you consider obama's wounded pride meaningful. it is also moral insult to the 99% of the syrian casualities that were not killed with chemical weapons who didn't die in a suitable fashion to merit obama's putative concern.

i only hope putin gets the nobel peace prize to continue the long and steady debasement of this award.

Offline fishs

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2013, 12:59:03 AM »
Well the red-line thing and all the statements made by him regarding Syria is actually a HUGE mis-step no matter how much some may try to down-play it.  For one he has lost even more credibility (though to be frank with you, I didn't think he ever had any credibility in the first place at any point in time).  My personal opinion on Obama's credibility aside, the fact remains that for someone who ran on the platform of 'peace' and a US policy of non-meddling, he has lost the credibility of his base support with his constant drone strikes and call for unprovoked military intervention against a sovereign state.  This was a guy who was awarded a Noble Peace Prize for reasons still unknown to most.   

The red-line thing has also lost him AND the US credibility and respect in the world's eyes as it relates to brokering agreements and peaceful solutions.  He has basically made an Ex KGB assassin in Vladimir Putin, look like Mahatma Ghandi.   

The red-line Syria thing, and all the rhetoric and bumbling of this has made the US look like a banana republic, unworthy of giving advice or brokering any diplomatic deals on the world's stage. 

That was a HUGE deal --- but count on the administration to play it down as usual.  This country is a joke.   

Circuitous nonsense. 


All you keep repeating is "red line", "red line" without ever once articulating how it was a "misstep."  Conclusory statements aside... list for us all these "missteps" and "bumbling" that took place.  Doh worry, we have time.


The response I posted clearly articulated what the misstep was --- CREDIBILITY. (Though you wish to ignore what was written).

But all-in-all, anyone with a shred of common-sense and some knowledge of the region, is aware that all this hype with Syria is due to the NATURAL GAS.  Syria is one of the most strategically located natural gas port in the Mid-East.  If Syria is 'lost' by the Russians and the Chinese, then the entire European region is basically held at gunpoint by the Middle Eastern energy interests.  You see, due to Syria's location, you can basically avoid requiring to have pipelines over countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, and instead have those pipelines feed directly into the European market via Syria.  It's been a huge source of contention.

There's more to it than that, but in a nutshell, we could potentially experience a World War 3 for absolutely no real reason other than one party wanting to have a pipeline running through a certain country...while ANOTHER country on the other side of the planet, who has their own mostly unexploited natural gas reserves and don't exactly stand to benefit either way from the gas-lines passing through Syria, is STILL meddling and playing de ass over there with irresponsible rhetoric about red-lines just because they want to 'stick-it' to Russia.  STEUPPES!!!!!!!   


This utter nonsense
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Offline Dutty

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2013, 05:30:10 AM »

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:34:14 AM by Dutty »
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Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2013, 06:01:18 AM »
Well the red-line thing and all the statements made by him regarding Syria is actually a HUGE mis-step no matter how much some may try to down-play it.  For one he has lost even more credibility (though to be frank with you, I didn't think he ever had any credibility in the first place at any point in time).  My personal opinion on Obama's credibility aside, the fact remains that for someone who ran on the platform of 'peace' and a US policy of non-meddling, he has lost the credibility of his base support with his constant drone strikes and call for unprovoked military intervention against a sovereign state.  This was a guy who was awarded a Noble Peace Prize for reasons still unknown to most.   

The red-line thing has also lost him AND the US credibility and respect in the world's eyes as it relates to brokering agreements and peaceful solutions.  He has basically made an Ex KGB assassin in Vladimir Putin, look like Mahatma Ghandi.   

The red-line Syria thing, and all the rhetoric and bumbling of this has made the US look like a banana republic, unworthy of giving advice or brokering any diplomatic deals on the world's stage. 

That was a HUGE deal --- but count on the administration to play it down as usual.  This country is a joke.   

Circuitous nonsense. 


All you keep repeating is "red line", "red line" without ever once articulating how it was a "misstep."  Conclusory statements aside... list for us all these "missteps" and "bumbling" that took place.  Doh worry, we have time.


The response I posted clearly articulated what the misstep was --- CREDIBILITY. (Though you wish to ignore what was written).

But all-in-all, anyone with a shred of common-sense and some knowledge of the region, is aware that all this hype with Syria is due to the NATURAL GAS.  Syria is one of the most strategically located natural gas port in the Mid-East.  If Syria is 'lost' by the Russians and the Chinese, then the entire European region is basically held at gunpoint by the Middle Eastern energy interests.  You see, due to Syria's location, you can basically avoid requiring to have pipelines over countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, and instead have those pipelines feed directly into the European market via Syria.  It's been a huge source of contention.

There's more to it than that, but in a nutshell, we could potentially experience a World War 3 for absolutely no real reason other than one party wanting to have a pipeline running through a certain country...while ANOTHER country on the other side of the planet, who has their own mostly unexploited natural gas reserves and don't exactly stand to benefit either way from the gas-lines passing through Syria, is STILL meddling and playing de ass over there with irresponsible rhetoric about red-lines just because they want to 'stick-it' to Russia.  STEUPPES!!!!!!!   


This utter nonsense

@fishs --- Yet somehow it's still making much more sense than the entire official reasons for US military interventions in the past 60 years. 

Humanitarian relief, my ass.    ;)
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Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2013, 08:46:31 AM »
@outsideman what is your take on putin's op-ed in the NYT ?

Offline Deeks

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2013, 10:59:35 AM »
Putin Op-Ed is a well written piece by a ruthless politician.If you are taken by 'all of us are God children', then lord help us. You believe a KGB man who passion is still wedded to the old Soviet Empire. I don't take anything politicians write anymore(including Barak. And I am on his side). Maybe because of my age. Churchil, Roosevelt, Williams, Manley, Castro, Maurice Bishop, Butler,Jagan, etc. All of them have nice motivational speeches. But we still in the Trou Macaque after all them years.

Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2013, 11:17:11 AM »
@outsideman what is your take on putin's op-ed in the NYT ?

ribbit --- I typically don't agree with Putin or Russian policy, but on this article alone (although Russia have their own vested interest, not mentioned in the op-ed), I have to fully agree with Putin.

He makes a very cogent point when he writes:  "It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States."

Also, where he states:  "No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists."

Anyway, I'll say it again...I do not trust Russia and the Ex-KGB assassin (lol) Vladimir Putin...but just based on his op-ed, I have to agree.

As they say, EVEN a broken clock is correct twice a day.   ;D    :beermug:
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Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2013, 11:24:05 AM »
Peace & hope to all.  :beermug:
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Offline Bakes

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2013, 02:01:53 PM »
This utter nonsense


----

...I fully expect you to ignore this point, because it so effectively undermines your claims about the "Middle Eastern interests" holding Europe at gunpoint. 


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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »
Ironically the ENTIRE world is also resoundingly telling the US that it's policy and 'reasoning' of unprovoked military intervention is also "utter nonsense". 

Seems like I'm in good company then.  ;)
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Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2013, 02:59:02 PM »
*Sips Scotch*   ;)
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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2013, 03:03:53 PM »
That was Obama plan from the start. Scare Syria into doing something. The vote was a well planned delay.

My opinion
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Offline OutsideMan

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2013, 03:15:15 PM »
That was Obama plan from the start. Scare Syria into doing something. The vote was a well planned delay.

My opinion

D.H.W ---  That's exactly the kind of excuse I use when I fall on my a$$ while walking on ice --- "It was my plan ALL ALONG...I swear! I MEANT to fall."      ;D

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2013, 03:21:20 PM »
Hehehe. :)
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Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2013, 05:53:45 PM »
@outsideman what is your take on putin's op-ed in the NYT ?

ribbit --- I typically don't agree with Putin or Russian policy, but on this article alone (although Russia have their own vested interest, not mentioned in the op-ed), I have to fully agree with Putin.

He makes a very cogent point when he writes:  "It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States."

Also, where he states:  "No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists."

Anyway, I'll say it again...I do not trust Russia and the Ex-KGB assassin (lol) Vladimir Putin...but just based on his op-ed, I have to agree.

As they say, EVEN a broken clock is correct twice a day.   ;D    :beermug:

That second point is very important but seems like Obama glossing over this. This is a blow to Obama's "lead-from-behind" approach.

Where is Biden in all of this? He is supposed to be the foreign policy expert.

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2013, 06:20:04 PM »
@outsideman what is your take on putin's op-ed in the NYT ?

ribbit --- I typically don't agree with Putin or Russian policy, but on this article alone (although Russia have their own vested interest, not mentioned in the op-ed), I have to fully agree with Putin.

He makes a very cogent point when he writes:  "It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States."

Also, where he states:  "No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists."

Anyway, I'll say it again...I do not trust Russia and the Ex-KGB assassin (lol) Vladimir Putin...but just based on his op-ed, I have to agree.

As they say, EVEN a broken clock is correct twice a day.   ;D    :beermug:

That second point is very important but seems like Obama glossing over this. This is a blow to Obama's "lead-from-behind" approach.

Where is Biden in all of this? He is supposed to be the foreign policy expert.

Biden's foreign policy 'expertise' is limited to drinking Margaritas and getting sun-tans on the beaches of Tahiti. 
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Offline Toppa

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Syria conflict thread?
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2014, 03:11:44 PM »
Nothing on Turkey shutting down access to youtube after details of their False Flag operation - to instigate an attack on Syria was leaked?

Anyway, that's what's going on there...
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline ribbit

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Re: Syria conflict thread?
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 11:24:45 AM »
nice post toppa. i did not realize this was related to the twitter blockade from turkey.

http://www.internationalman.com/articles/why-turkey-was-planning-a-false-flag-operation-in-syria

in this day and age, with the technology and leakers out there, these false flag operations really hard to pull off.

this syria situation looking like a smaller version of the congo - not one of the belligerents have any sympathies with the civilized world. is an islamic fascism showdown - let dem all dead.

as for de people and de country .......

Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2015, 11:39:29 AM »
interesting piece given the focus on the "migrant crisis". it was very sad to see the pics of that little syrian youth off the coast of turkey. couldn't help think of the cubans and particularly the haitians that try making a similar journey. definte parallels in the way the media treats these migrants: syria/cuban vs african/haitian.

but anyway, what might have been ....


==

West 'ignored Russian offer in 2012 to have Syria's Assad step aside'


Exclusive: Senior negotiator describes rejection of alleged proposal – since which time tens of thousands have been killed and millions displaced

Julian Borger and Bastien Inzaurralde

Tuesday 15 September 2015 09.20 BST


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Russia proposed more than three years ago that Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad, could step down as part of a peace deal, according to a senior negotiator involved in back-channel discussions at the time.


Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari said western powers failed to seize on the proposal. Since it was made, in 2012, tens of thousands of people have been killed and millions uprooted, causing the world’s gravest refugee crisis since the second world war.

Ahtisaari held talks with envoys from the five permanent members of the UN security council in February 2012. He said that during those discussions, the Russian ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, laid out a three-point plan, which included a proposal for Assad to cede power at some point after peace talks had started between the regime and the opposition.


But he said that the US, Britain and France were so convinced that the Syrian dictator was about to fall, they ignored the proposal.

“It was an opportunity lost in 2012,” Ahtisaari said in an interview.


Officially, Russia has staunchly backed Assad through the four-and-half-year Syrian war, insisting that his removal cannot be part of any peace settlement. Assad has said that Russia will never abandon him. Moscow has recently begun sending troops, tanks and aircraft in an effort to stabilise the Assad regime and fight Islamic State extremists.

Ahtisaari won the Nobel prize in 2008 “for his efforts on several continents and over more than three decades, to resolve international conflicts”, including in Namibia, Aceh in Indonesia, Kosovo and Iraq.


On 22 February 2012 he was sent to meet the missions of the permanent five nations (the US, Russia, UK, France and China) at UN headquarters in New York by The Elders, a group of former world leaders advocating peace and human rights that has included Nelson Mandela, Jimmy Carter, and former UN secretary general Kofi Annan.


“The most intriguing was the meeting I had with Vitaly Churkin because I know this guy,” Ahtisaari recalled. “We don’t necessarily agree on many issues but we can talk candidly. I explained what I was doing there and he said: ‘Martti, sit down and I’ll tell you what we should do.’


“He said three things: One – we should not give arms to the opposition. Two – we should get a dialogue going between the opposition and Assad straight away. Three – we should find an elegant way for Assad to step aside.”

Churkin declined to comment on what he said had been a “private conversation” with Ahtisaari. The Finnish former president, however, was adamant about the nature of the discussion.


“There was no question because I went back and asked him a second time,” he said, noting that Churkin had just returned from a trip to Moscow and there seemed little doubt he was raising the proposal on behalf of the Kremlin.


Ahtisaari said he passed on the message to the American, British and French missions at the UN, but he said: “Nothing happened because I think all these, and many others, were convinced that Assad would be thrown out of office in a few weeks so there was no need to do anything.”

While Ahtisaari was still in New York, Kofi Annan was made joint special envoy on Syria for the UN and the Arab League. Ahtisaari said: “Kofi was forced to take up the assignment as special representative. I say forced because I don’t think he was terribly keen. He saw very quickly that no one was supporting anything.”

In June 2012, Annan chaired international talks in Geneva, which agreed a peace plan by which a transitional government would be formed by “mutual consent” of the regime and opposition. However, it soon fell apart over differences on whether Assad should step down. Annan resigned as envoy a little more than a month later, and Assad’s personal fate has been the principal stumbling block to all peace initiatives since then.


Last week, Britain’s foreign secretary, Philip Hammond, suggested that as part of a peace deal, Assad could remain in office during a six-month “transitional period” but the suggestion was quickly rejected by Damascus.

Western diplomats at the UN refused to speak on the record about Ahtisaari’s claim, but pointed out that after a year of the Syrian conflict, Assad’s forces had already carried out multiple massacres, and the main opposition groups refused to accept any proposal that left him in power. A few days after Ahtisaari’s visit to New York, Hillary Clinton, then US secretary of state, branded the Syrian leader a war criminal.

Sir John Jenkins – a former director of the Middle East department of the UK’s Foreign Office who was preparing to take up the post of ambassador to Saudi Arabia in the first half of 2012 – said that in his experience, Russia resisted any attempt to put Assad’s fate on the negotiating table “and I never saw a reference to any possible flexing of this position”.

Jenkins, now executive director of the Middle East branch of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said in an email: “I think it is true that the general feeling was Assad wouldn’t be able to hold out. But I don’t see why that should have led to a decision to ignore an offer by the Russians to get him to go quickly, as long as that was a genuine offer.


“The weakest point is Ahtisaari’s claim that Churkin was speaking with Moscow’s authority. I think if he had told me what Churkin had said, I would have replied I wanted to hear it from [President Vladimir] Putin too before I could take it seriously. And even then I’d have wanted to be sure it wasn’t a Putin trick to draw us in to a process that ultimately preserved Assad’s state under a different leader but with the same outcome.”

A European diplomat based in the region in 2012 recalled: “At the time, the west was fixated on Assad leaving. As if that was the beginning and the end of the strategy and then all else would fall into place … Russia continuously maintained it wasn’t about Assad. But if our heart hung on it, they were willing to talk about Assad; mind: usually as part of an overall plan, process, at some point etc. Not here and now.”

However, the diplomat added: “I very much doubt the P3 [the US, UK and France] refused or dismissed any such strategy offer at the time. The questions were more to do with sequencing – the beginning or end of process – and with Russia’s ability to deliver – to get Assad to step down.”

At the time of Ahtisaari’s visit to New York, the death toll from the Syrian conflict was estimated to be about 7,500. The UN believes that toll passed 220,000 at the beginning of this year, and continues to climb. The chaos has led to the rise of Islamic State. Over 11 million Syrians have been forced out of their homes.

“We should have prevented this from happening because this is a self-made disaster, this flow of refugees to our countries in Europe,” Ahtisaari said. “I don’t see any other option but to take good care of these poor people … We are paying the bills we have caused ourselves.”



Offline Sando prince

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2015, 07:08:06 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iZYIr-QoOh4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iZYIr-QoOh4</a>
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 10:41:28 AM by Sando prince »

Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2015, 09:02:00 AM »
with russia moving military units into syria, there are reports that russia and israel are "coordinating" to ensure that israel doesn't attack any russians. israel does come into syria and attack hezbollah. so now, israel will have to deal with a russian presence which ought to preclude some of those flyovers. curious if israel attack russia, what obama will think of that.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2015, 10:38:40 AM »
with russia moving military units into syria, there are reports that russia and israel are "coordinating" to ensure that israel doesn't attack any russians. israel does come into syria and attack hezbollah. so now, israel will have to deal with a russian presence which ought to preclude some of those flyovers. curious if israel attack russia, what obama will think of that.

I am sure Israel will do whatever it takes NOT to attack any Russian forces. In fact I can see Obama reminding Netanyanhu not to make this mistake behind close doors.

Offline ribbit

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2015, 12:58:43 PM »
with russia moving military units into syria, there are reports that russia and israel are "coordinating" to ensure that israel doesn't attack any russians. israel does come into syria and attack hezbollah. so now, israel will have to deal with a russian presence which ought to preclude some of those flyovers. curious if israel attack russia, what obama will think of that.

I am sure Israel will do whatever it takes NOT to attack any Russian forces. In fact I can see Obama reminding Netanyanhu not to make this mistake behind close doors.

de other side of de coin - what happens if hezbollah/iran decide dey will take this chance to press israel? has russia become the guarantor for iran/hezbollah forebearance?

Offline Sando prince

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2015, 03:22:40 PM »
with russia moving military units into syria, there are reports that russia and israel are "coordinating" to ensure that israel doesn't attack any russians. israel does come into syria and attack hezbollah. so now, israel will have to deal with a russian presence which ought to preclude some of those flyovers. curious if israel attack russia, what obama will think of that.

I am sure Israel will do whatever it takes NOT to attack any Russian forces. In fact I can see Obama reminding Netanyanhu not to make this mistake behind close doors.

de other side of de coin - what happens if hezbollah/iran decide dey will take this chance to press israel? has russia become the guarantor for iran/hezbollah forebearance?

Well I take it Iran in particular will not use this opportunity as a chance to press Israel because they will not want to harm their relationship with Russia which is very important to them. As for hezbollah I don't see why you believe Russia has a moral obligation to defend them.

Putin has assured the Israel PM that Russian forces in Syria are no threat to Israel so I don't expect Russian allies in the region to embarrass him. What is most glaring about this entire ordeal is America being non-existent in this fiasco and many people beginning to believe America is losing influence in the region.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-syria-israel-20150921-story.html

Quote

Russian President Vladimir Putin tried Monday to calm Israeli fears that the Kremlin's military buildup in Syria could expose Israel to more hostility, assuring visiting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the Syrian government has its hands full fighting its civil war.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 03:30:21 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Deeks

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2015, 03:55:53 PM »
What is most glaring about this entire ordeal is America being non-existent in this fiasco and many people beginning to believe America is losing influence in the region.


It may appear that US influence is non-existent. But I don't think so. All of them like to cuss the US when the US hit them with bootoo over they head. Americans are too aggressive, they are murderers. They won't sign agreements with the American for legal issues dealing with US soldiers. But as soon as the US pull out. Americans are cowards. The president weak. He send to two drones and bomb they arse. America this ... America that.

 The big mistake was Obama saying Assad must go, when deep down he did not want him to. Assad hardly had any conflicts with Israel, which is the primary issue in middle east politics. He protected Christian Syrians. He was not a threat to the west. he is just a hard man. And them people need hard men. Sorry to say that. After seeing what happened in Iraq and Libya and Egypt to a point, there is some justification in US hands off policy for now. I honestly feel the next President will send troops in there again. If a Republican wins the next elections, prepare for war. And I hope the European and socalled middle east allies don't run from their responsibilities.

Offline Sando prince

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2015, 04:04:13 PM »
What is most glaring about this entire ordeal is America being non-existent in this fiasco and many people beginning to believe America is losing influence in the region.


It may appear that US influence is non-existent. But I don't think so. All of them like to cuss the US when the US hit them with bootoo over they head. Americans are too aggressive, they are murderers. They won't sign agreements with the American for legal issues dealing with US soldiers. But as soon as the US pull out. Americans are cowards. The president weak. He send to two drones and bomb they arse. America this ... America that.

 The big mistake was Obama saying Assad must go, when deep down he did not want him to. Assad hardly had any conflicts with Israel, which is the primary issue in middle east politics. He protected Christian Syrians. He was not a threat to the west. he is just a hard man. And them people need hard men. Sorry to say that. After seeing what happened in Iraq and Libya and Egypt to a point, there is some justification in US hands off policy for now. I honestly feel the next President will send troops in there again. If a Republican wins the next elections, prepare for war. And I hope the European and socalled middle east allies don't run from their responsibilities.

Could just be a case of America being out-maneuvered in the Middle East. What will a different America President do in this situation? Send troops despite majority of Americans being against sending troops on the ground for another expensive war? Well let's say this different President does send troops then it will be to fight against who exactly? America fight against ISIS will be in support of Assad and America don't want to support Assad or ISIS. They want the rebels to win a revolution over the Syrian Governement and this is being outrightly opposed throughout the Middle East and in Russia. This is the real reason why the US rather watch from afar and not get directly involved. Russia has capitalized on this issue and is now the Super-power leading the military fight against ISIS and negotiating with several nations in the region including Israel. Russia seems to have the influence in the region at the moment.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 04:37:38 PM by Sando prince »

Offline Deeks

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Re: wdf happening in syria?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2015, 05:44:27 PM »
I don't think Assad going anywhere. But He will not govern the whole of Syria. He will have a much smaller Syria.  he will not mess with Israel even if Russia gives him the best equipment. So the US will have to fight ISIS, and when that done, they  will carve out a piece of Syria for the rebels, Kurds and whoever. But that will be a mess because that part of Syria has no outlet to the sea. So they will be stuck in the desert. All the scenarios looked bleak.

 

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