Venezuelans and T&T Thread

[Sando prince]

I am curious to know where Granger has placed his Defence Force in response to this..

[Deeks]

I am curious to know where Granger has placed his Defence Force in response to this..

I definitely don't want to see this dispute start with a shoot out. Guyana with a population less than TT may not be a match for Ven with their big military force.

[Sando prince]

I am curious to know where Granger has placed his Defence Force in response to this..

I definitely don't want to see this dispute start with a shoot out. Guyana with a population less than TT may not be a match for Ven with their big military force.

Shootout? Where is Guyana defense if not guarding it's own border?

[R45]

Shootout? Where is Guyana defense if not guarding it's own border?

The GDF doesn't have much of an operational capacity, especially for rural access - it has been an issue for decades. They've always had an issue with not having enough vehicles (or the right type) for those remote regions, or not having enough landing strips to gain access quickly (and not enough troop transport options). They just don't spend enough as a percentage of GDP compared to their neighbours.

This Venezuela-Guyana should be a CARICOM issue, but this is incredibly muddy since Venezuela has been buying CARICOM goodwill through PetroCaribe and other financial support. Honestly I think that was part of their strategy to divide CARICOM and keep their Guyana/Venezuela dispute in isolation. CARICOM is less likely now to have a uniform voice condemning Venezuela on the border dispute because of how deep some of the governments (especially the Lesser Antilles) are with Venezuelan social programs.

[Deeks]

Guyana will be hard-pressed to defend all that territory. That better start working on the diplomatic front to help bolster them in case Maduro go loco. I think he should talk to Caricom now(well he must be talking to them and they keeping it a low profile).

[R45]

This also has some implications for T&T. When we settled our maritime border with Venezuela in 1990, part of our southern boundary that we agreed to was based on Venezuela's claim of half of Guyana, specifically the eastern-most portion of the southern line, near the end of our exclusive economic zone.

[Sando prince]

Shootout? Where is Guyana defense if not guarding it's own border?

The GDF doesn't have much of an operational capacity, especially for rural access - it has been an issue for decades. They've always had an issue with not having enough vehicles (or the right type) for those remote regions, or not having enough landing strips to gain access quickly (and not enough troop transport options). They just don't spend enough as a percentage of GDP compared to their neighbours.

This Venezuela-Guyana should be a CARICOM issue, but this is incredibly muddy since Venezuela has been buying CARICOM goodwill through PetroCaribe and other financial support. Honestly I think that was part of their strategy to divide CARICOM and keep their Guyana/Venezuela dispute in isolation. CARICOM is less likely now to have a uniform voice condemning Venezuela on the border dispute because of how deep some of the governments (especially the Lesser Antilles) are with Venezuelan social programs.

Failure on the part of past Guyanese administrations regardless how much one may want to sympathize with them on this particular point.

[asylumseeker]

Historically, although Guyana has sought to address this issue through formal channels, it has not beat the drum sufficiently in terms of galvanizing world opinion and informal structures. When Chavez was at the height of being a scourge to the global community (to those opposed), Guyana had an opportunity to reap a tangible dividend. It did not capitalize on that reality.

In recent months, Guatemala has been fairly activist (as it has historically) on Belizean territory, and there seems to have been a parallel vacuum in state capacity to act (parallel vis-a-vis Guyana), with the most vocal and expressive actors being non-state actors. Recently saw footage of Belizean environmentalists confronting the Guatemalan navy and roundly condemning Dean Barrow's 'silence'.

R45, I regard the PetroCaribe concern as overstated.

[asylumseeker]

Shootout? Where is Guyana defense if not guarding it's own border?

The GDF doesn't have much of an operational capacity, especially for rural access - it has been an issue for decades. They've always had an issue with not having enough vehicles (or the right type) for those remote regions, or not having enough landing strips to gain access quickly (and not enough troop transport options). They just don't spend enough as a percentage of GDP compared to their neighbours.

This Venezuela-Guyana should be a CARICOM issue, but this is incredibly muddy since Venezuela has been buying CARICOM goodwill through PetroCaribe and other financial support. Honestly I think that was part of their strategy to divide CARICOM and keep their Guyana/Venezuela dispute in isolation. CARICOM is less likely now to have a uniform voice condemning Venezuela on the border dispute because of how deep some of the governments (especially the Lesser Antilles) are with Venezuelan social programs.

Failure on the part of past Guyanese administrations regardless how much one may want to sympathize with them on this particular point.

Guyana can't afford it.

[ribbit]

this situation almost tailor made for US intervention. dis eh ukraine or syria. de US can fly in, kick venezuela back, make maduro sweat a bit more, and hand out medal in time for christmas. venezuela better watch dey selves!

[Deeks]

So what if we had a Federation with Guyana in it. What allyuh think woulda happen?

[R45]

Historically, although Guyana has sought to address this issue through formal channels, it has not beat the drum sufficiently in terms of galvanizing world opinion and informal structures. When Chavez was at the height of being a scourge to the global community (to those opposed), Guyana had an opportunity to reap a tangible dividend. It did not capitalize on that reality.

In recent months, Guatemala has been fairly activist (as it has historically) on Belizean territory, and there seems to have been a parallel vacuum in state capacity to act (parallel vis-a-vis Guyana), with the most vocal and expressive actors being non-state actors. Recently saw footage of Belizean environmentalists confronting the Guatemalan navy and roundly condemning Dean Barrow's 'silence'.

R45, I regard the PetroCarribe concern as overstated.

I'm not saying that Caricom support for Guyana is impossible, but Petrocaribe and other Venezuelans programs will put some Caribbean countries that have benefited greatly from Venezuela since Chavez (especially St. Vincent and Dominica) in a very awkward position to bite the hand that is feeding them.

I think part of Guyana's problem/inability to lobby is due to their poor relations with powers. During the anti-Chavez time, the natural ally would have been with the US. However Guyana's relationship with the US is not very good. A good recent case is when they made Henry Greene their Commissioner of Police. This was very much protested by the US/Canada/UK, and Greene had strong ties with the drug trade but Jagdeo went ahead and maintained the appointment. That ended up scuttling tons of joint operations between the US (and others) and both the Guyanese police and defense force, and lots of foreign aid.

Historically Guyana was more aligned with the Soviets/Russians, but it doesn't even seem like that relationship is very strong either. Instead, at least in my opinion, Guyana is isolated on many fronts (through many of its own actions), including within Caricom, relative to its South American neighbours, and globally. Let's not forget that Guyana also still has active territory disputes with Suriname and French Guiana.

[Deeks]

Allyuh know that is also a British problem. Or was created by the Brits when they were a superpower

[R45]

Allyuh know that is also a British problem. Or was created by the Brits when they were a superpower

Only one of many - almost every modern territory dispute in the Americas can be traced back to disputes between the competing colonization powers from the 16th to 20th centuries.

We had our own disputes with Venezuela, specifically over the boundary in the gulf and some of our outlying islands (like Patos and Soldado). Fortunately it was mutually resolved in 1942 and hasn't been a major issue since (well despite fishermen getting arrested in our waters, but the border line isn't disputed).

In this Guyana/Venezuela case, another factor here is all of the Amerindian tribes that live in the area. Not much is really said about what rights they have, when some of them are living in the same area/region (including where is being disputed) for centuries prior to Columbus. Guyana has a fairly high percentage of both intact tribes and people of Amerindian/Indigenous descent.

[asylumseeker]

Another ingredient in this mix is a sort of cultural legacy. For decades in Venezuela it was common to see this sense of ownership (of the territory in question) passed down generationally through everyday icons such as car stickers and household adornments. They probably even learn it in school. I was surprised to see private vehicles emblazoned with stickers showing a map shape markedly different to the shape of the country we are taught.

Frankly, once Maduro started repatriating Colombians, I saw this developing on the other border. It fits his faux-Napoleonic narrative.

[asylumseeker]

Allyuh know that is also a British problem. Or was created by the Brits when they were a superpower

Correct. The Brits fixed problems to accommodate their immediate interests, but not for all time. Their diplomatic footprint is global and accomplished.

[asylumseeker]

this situation almost tailor made for US intervention. dis eh ukraine or syria. de US can fly in, kick venezuela back, make maduro sweat a bit more, and hand out medal in time for christmas. venezuela better watch dey selves!

Even assuming intervention, how would the integrity of the Guyanese border position be protected subsequent to US intervention?

Also, doh feel just because "iz Venezuela" that the issue possesses a walk-in-the-park solution. Certainly, despite varying degrees of intolerance towards Maduro across the continent, any US intervention would be greeted with much less than a welcome. One can't ignore the history and consequences of the US in Latin America. Additionally, would any such action distract the US' rapprochement with Cuba?

Also to be considered is whether the Venezuelan military strengthens or weakens in the process.

What is morale within the ranks?

What's in the US national interest?

[R45]

Even assuming intervention, how would the integrity of the Guyanese border position be protected subsequent to US intervention?

Also, doh feel just because "iz Venezuela" that the issue possesses a walk-in-the-park solution. Certainly, despite varying degrees of intolerance towards Maduro across the continent, any US intervention would be greeted with much less than a welcome. One can't ignore the history and consequences of the US in Latin America. Additionally, would any such action distract the US' rapprochement with Cuba?

Also to be considered is whether the Venezuelan military strengthens or weakens in the process.

What is morale within the ranks?

What's in the US national interest?

Additionally, US / Guyana relations are not great, and that would not only be a tough sell to the US public but a tough one for the Guyanese gov't to get to that point request intervention.

I think if this were to escalate, we would probably expect to see Brazil play a role, since the disputed area borders Brazil and both Venezuela/Guyana hold long borders with it (and Brazil is biggest player on the continent). It would be in Brazil's interests not to have this blow up right next door (also in T&T's might I add).

[Sando prince]

Hmmmm 

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/20150924/business/rowley-gets-courtesy-call-from-venezuela-delegation

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley received a courtesy call on Tuesday from a delegation from Venezuela led by Minister of People’s Power for Foreign Affairs of Venezuela, Delcy Rodríguez Gómez, a release from the Office of the Prime Minister has said

.

[Sando prince]

Hmmmm 

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/20150924/business/rowley-gets-courtesy-call-from-venezuela-delegation

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley received a courtesy call on Tuesday from a delegation from Venezuela led by Minister of People’s Power for Foreign Affairs of Venezuela, Delcy Rodríguez Gómez, a release from the Office of the Prime Minister has said

.

I believe T&T can play a major role by mediating this Guyana / Venezuela conflict. However we must seize the opportunity right away.

[frico]

Call in the Brits,they had Jagan kicked out years ago,they can show their strength again.

[R45]

Hmmmm 

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/20150924/business/rowley-gets-courtesy-call-from-venezuela-delegation

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley received a courtesy call on Tuesday from a delegation from Venezuela led by Minister of People’s Power for Foreign Affairs of Venezuela, Delcy Rodríguez Gómez, a release from the Office of the Prime Minister has said

.

Not necessarily related. One of Rowley's campaign promises was to get an agreement signed to develop some of the fields on the Venezuelan/TT border, and usually after election all of the resident ambassadors meet with the new PM within the first few weeks.

It would be a good time for Rowley to raise concerns about the Guyana issue escalating, however he may also be torn on keeping focus on the gas agreement - for years Chavez largely ignored Manning and did not respond to our requests to talk about the developing some of those fields - it took Fidel Castro intervening to get them to the table and get a MOU signed. That was pretty late in the last Manning administration.

[Sando prince]

I know its not necessary related. The article however establish the on-going talks between T&T and our energy partner Venezuela. T&T and Venezuela has a stronger relationship now and T&T has the opportunity to be a key player in the escalating tension between our Caricom brother Guyana and our partner Venezuela since we have relationships with both countries. 

[asylumseeker]

In recent days, Venezuela has been very active across the English-speaking Caribbean.







Photos of a Venezuelan delegation, led by Foreign Minister Delcy Rodriguez, in Trinidad and Tobago.



President Maduro in St. Kitts-Nevis.



St. Lucia









St. Kitts-Nevis where agreements on health and housing were signed.









President Maduro in Dominica.

[asylumseeker]

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/646864219288281088/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

[R45]

I know its not necessary related. The article however establish the on-going talks between T&T and our energy partner Venezuela. T&T and Venezuela has a stronger relationship now and T&T has the opportunity to be a key player in the escalating tension between our Caricom brother Guyana and our partner Venezuela since we have relationships with both countries. 

I agree at a level, but I think Rowley & company are going to have a tough job balancing issues. Venezuela's Guayana Esequiba claim is long-standing and nationalistic, so trying to mediate that is sensitive and could distract from bi-lateral talks over energy development.

I don't necessarily agree that we have a "strong" relationship with Venezuela. Our relationship with them has always been very cool/warm. Our joint development of those fields straddling our border has huge hurdles, including ideological gaps with Venezuela's views on foreign investment and nationalizing their oil industry (we are certainly more liberal/foreign friendly), and they've used PDVSA to be fairly hostile to the major Oilcos in the last decade - those Oilcos operate heavily in T&T and are at the core of our development.

Actually getting an agreement signed is going to take a lot of work, and if we are lobbying them to back off from their territory claims, it might derail the energy talks. Out of all the Caribbean countries, Cuba is probably best positioned to mediate the dispute.

[Sando prince]

PM: Guyana/Venezuela border dispute will be resolved


PRIME Minister Dr Keith Rowley expects that the ongoing border dispute between Venezuela and Guyana will be “resolved in the best interest of all and in accordance with international law”.

Rowley conveyed his expectation to a high-level delegation from Venezuela that visited this country on Tuesday.

He also told the delegation he expects that “neither side will do anything to escalate” the dispute.

On Tuesday President of Guyana David Granger said that Venezuela had deployed troops to a contested border region between the two countries.

Granger told reporters that Venezuela made “extraordinary military deployments” along what Guyana considers its western border.

Venezuela and Guyana have been engaged in an ongoing dispute over an area known as the Essequibo.

Guyana has asked the United Nations to mediate the border dispute and Granger is expected to raise the issue at the upcoming General Assembly meeting.

A release from the Office of the Prime Minister stated that Rowley “received a High-Level Delegation from the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, led by Venezuela’s Minister of People’s Power for Foreign Affairs Delcy Rodríguez Gómez.

Venezuela’s Minister of People’s Power for Oil and Mining and the Minister of People’s Power for Economy and Finance were also present.

“During the courtesy call, Prime Minister Rowley recalled the commitment given to him by His Excellency Nicolás Maduro, President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela to despatch a high–level Ministerial team to Trinidad and Tobago, in the shortest possible time, to pursue cooperation in areas of mutual interest.

“The Prime Minister highlighted the scope for meaningful collaboration in the energy, trade and security sectors as well as culture and the arts, among others.

He cited the benefits to both countries of accelerating exploitation of the Loran-Manatee cross-border field and of joint efforts to counter the illicit trade in small arms and narcotics,” a release from the Office of the Prime minister stated.

Rowley also addressed the Venezuela and Guyana border dispute.

“In respect of the situation between Guyana and Venezuela, the Prime Minister conveyed the expectation that the situation would be resolved in the best interest of all, in accordance with international law, and that neither side would do anything to escalate the situation,” the release stated.

[Sando prince]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/h6W-JN7RkUc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/h6W-JN7RkUc</a>

[Sando prince]

Guyana showcases military skills in face of Venezuela buildup

[Sando prince]

Guyana showcases military skills in face of Venezuela buildup

Guyana bringing out dem big bad nuclear build up to guard dem border. 

Chief of Staff Brigadier Mark Phillips is talking tough. Man ready to fight for their country and not let Venezuela take advantage of them.

http://www.kaieteurnewsonline.com/2015/09/26/guyana-showcases-military-skills-in-face-of-venezuela-buildup/