Author Topic: Football thoughts (Read 5764 times)

Observer · « **on:** June 20, 2009, 02:53:11 PM »

Just finish reading a small translation from Aime Jacque book, where he believes France 98-2000 success was linked to their main players playing abroad & in some of the top leagues at the time. Could it be the deciding factor for Spanish football as well. We all know they have always under achieved, but now they seem to have a different quality. I know the majority still play in Spain, but quite a few are abroad as well, creating competition for places.
When you think of Mexico with Blanco, Hernandez, Borgetti etc. it was the same these players were playing abroad and Mexico was very competitive on World & Copa America stage.

Is there a relation to the two?

weary1969 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 20, 2009, 02:59:08 PM »

Quote from: Observer on June 20, 2009, 02:53:11 PM

Just finish reading a small translation from Aime Jacque book, where he believes France 98-2000 success was linked to their main players playing abroad & in some of the top leagues at the time. Could it be the deciding factor for Spanish football as well. We all know they have always under achieved, but now they seem to have a different quality. I know the majority still play in Spain, but quite a few are abroad as well, creating competition for places.
When you think of Mexico with Blanco, Hernandez, Borgetti etc. it was the same these players were playing abroad and Mexico was very competitive on World & Copa America stage.

Is there a relation to the two?

YESSSSSSSSSSSS

Filho · « **Reply #2 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:37:59 PM »

I was wondering the same thing today. I believe that having players in the EPL helps the Spanish national team. By mixing players who are playing in the two of the best leagues in Europe you increase the chances of having a complete, versatile squad. You also have a squad of players who are getting more top level European experience. By having players in Barca, Liverpool and Arsenal, for example, you are improving the chances of your players reaching the semifinals and finals of the Champions League every years as opposed to if all your players were in La Liga. I looked at the Spanish team today and at one point you had Pepe Reina, Arbeloa, Fernando Torres, Fabregas, Riera and Xavi Alonzo on the field. It may not have been Spain's A-squad, but it was close and in any case, these are all key players..all of whom ply their trade in England. You have your typically talented technicians who can now play at a slighty faster pace, who aren't as put off by the long ball, or physical play. I think having players in a variety of the best leagues helps, even if Italy in WC2006 shows it isn't absolutely necessary. Also helps when there are groups of players who know each other well. Spain today could have basically been called Barcerpool United.

Other thoughts:

David Villa > Fernando Torres

I've never seen a player improve over a year like Gerrard Pique.

I think Pienaar will have a breakout tournament in 2010...but not sure where the goals coming from if Benny doh come back into the fold.

injunchile · « **Reply #3 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:03:38 PM »

How is it that we who have most of the team playing abroad struggling to beat Bermuda and Grenada.

Marcos · « **Reply #4 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:17:19 PM »

Pique's composure and distribution out of the back is sublime.

Villa es mucho mas mejor que Torres.
I really wish Real get him just so I can see what a trio of Ronaldo, Kaka and Villa would look like on the field.

This Spain team could real poison Brazil so the selecao better watch it!

Puyol was too stiff to play right back today, but still looked 1000% better than our right backs lol

Observer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2009, 06:22:06 PM »

Quote from: injunchile on June 20, 2009, 05:03:38 PM

How is it that we who have most of the team playing abroad struggling to beat Bermuda and Grenada.

Simple, because we do not have top players, with top teams, in the top leagues.

palos · « **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2009, 06:30:05 PM »

Quote from: Filho on June 20, 2009, 03:37:59 PM

I've never seen a player improve over a year like Gerrard Pique.

Pique was ALWAYS a boss.

He was the best player on show in the U 20 world cup in Canada....when Sergio Aguero, Pato & Diego Capel had all the headlines.

He manners Pato when Spain played Brazil in Vancouver. At Man U....he was stifled & regressed. Moving back to Barca was the best thing that could have happened to him.

dinho · « **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2009, 07:37:22 PM »

Pique real nice to watch..

It refreshing to see a center back taking the ball forward, and sometimes past the half with comfort to get involved in the attack.

i feel Marquez could loss he pick next year.

nice thread observer.

Jumbie · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2009, 07:53:49 PM »

Spain break record today oui! 15 successive wins. Doh worry it have ah orange team that will ground them next yr in SA!

weary1969 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2009, 08:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Jumbie on June 20, 2009, 07:53:49 PM

Spain break record today oui! 15 successive wins. Doh worry it have ah orange team that will ground them next yr in SA!

Dream on dem orange fellas done find d reason y they eh go 2 well it go b d noise

Cocorite · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2009, 08:04:52 PM »

Quote from: Observer on June 20, 2009, 06:22:06 PM

Quote from: injunchile on June 20, 2009, 05:03:38 PM
How is it that we who have most of the team playing abroad struggling to beat Bermuda and Grenada.

Simple, because we do not have top players, with top teams, in the top leagues.

I think this is a bigger question than its been given credit for. It is a valid question.

Even though we have quite a few players playing abroad in admittedly stronger leagues, we aren't dominating the likes of Greneda. Might it be due in large part to lack of chemistry? Does the Grenedian team have equally tallented players (albeit without the exposure to foreign experience), who play together regularly enough to forge a potent enough team to rival T&T's superior experienced individuals? What about T&T's team selection? Coaching staff not on the same page or being dictated to by the likes of Jack?

Good question, I think this should disturb the powers that be. All credit to Greneda, though.

Filho · « **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2009, 05:56:46 AM »

Quote from: Cocorite on June 20, 2009, 08:04:52 PM

Quote from: Observer on June 20, 2009, 06:22:06 PM
Quote from: injunchile on June 20, 2009, 05:03:38 PM
How is it that we who have most of the team playing abroad struggling to beat Bermuda and Grenada.

Simple, because we do not have top players, with top teams, in the top leagues.

I think this is a bigger question than its been given credit for. It is a valid question.

Even though we have quite a few players playing abroad in admittedly stronger leagues, we aren't dominating the likes of Greneda. Might it be due in large part to lack of chemistry? Does the Grenedian team have equally tallented players (albeit without the exposure to foreign experience), who play together regularly enough to forge a potent enough team to rival T&T's superior experienced individuals? What about T&T's team selection? Coaching staff not on the same page or being dictated to by the likes of Jack?

Good question, I think this should disturb the powers that be. All credit to Greneda, though.

I think the observation was that Spain may be benefitting from players in foreign leagues (EPL in this case). So you should be asking....does T&T benefit from having foreign-based players, regardless of whether we struggled against Grenada and the like. And one offs are not useful to talk about anyway...we are in the Hex, Grenada is not. T&T generally plays at a higher level than Grenada. Also, it is only one issue. Spain had all the other ingredients in place..great domestic league, deep pool of top quality players, good coaching staff..etc. This talk about foreign based is one additional layer on top of many..T&T have so many problems that you cannot discuss the inadequencies of the side only in terms of foreign based vs local. With Spain, however, you might be able to say that was the last piece of the puzzle

Observer · « **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2009, 07:33:33 AM »

My comment was really tongue & cheek.

T&T Like other Nations in CONCACAF have a history of inconsistent planning & lack a vision of preparation and team building over 4 years. We all know that you simply cannot throw a group together and hope it becomes a team. Sometimes you may get it right, but more than likely you get it wrong.
It certainly does not help that the T&T National team is USED as a political butu for personal gain and self promotion. Then again this is true for almost all sport in T&T. Look at the mess and consequent decline of cycling in the country!

Deeks · « **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2009, 07:36:31 AM »

Yes, we have players in the EPL. How many are mid-fielders. Dwight(passed his prime) and Carlos(probably 4 yrs left). Our biggest problem is mid-field. If we not producing good fielders(local or foreign), we ain't going nowhere.

Happy Fathers Day , fellahs and Ladies too!!!!!!

ribbit · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2009, 08:20:21 AM »

Quote from: Observer on June 20, 2009, 02:53:11 PM

Just finish reading a small translation from Aime Jacque book, where he believes France 98-2000 success was linked to their main players playing abroad & in some of the top leagues at the time. Could it be the deciding factor for Spanish football as well. We all know they have always under achieved, but now they seem to have a different quality. I know the majority still play in Spain, but quite a few are abroad as well, creating competition for places.
When you think of Mexico with Blanco, Hernandez, Borgetti etc. it was the same these players were playing abroad and Mexico was very competitive on World & Copa America stage.

Is there a relation to the two?

was the italian 2006 wc team an exception? i think they were the only team in the final fielded solely from their "domestic" league.

Observer · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2009, 09:11:38 AM »

Quote from: ribbit on June 21, 2009, 08:20:21 AM

Quote from: Observer on June 20, 2009, 02:53:11 PM
Just finish reading a small translation from Aime Jacque book, where he believes France 98-2000 success was linked to their main players playing abroad & in some of the top leagues at the time. Could it be the deciding factor for Spanish football as well. We all know they have always under achieved, but now they seem to have a different quality. I know the majority still play in Spain, but quite a few are abroad as well, creating competition for places.
When you think of Mexico with Blanco, Hernandez, Borgetti etc. it was the same these players were playing abroad and Mexico was very competitive on World & Copa America stage.

Is there a relation to the two?

was the italian 2006 wc team an exception? i think they were the only team in the final fielded solely from their "domestic" league.

Italy, Brazil, Germany are exceptions in IMHO, their tradition with the WC shows that.

tsingh · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2009, 09:47:05 AM »

Good Post ... just an observation though ...

Spain has always been one of the best teams in Senior WC never to ... but their time has come about NOW quite frankly ... and it is not so much that they have players all over the place ... if you look at their u-20 youth results for the past 6 years or so ... in 03 they win, 05 lost to eventual winners argentina, 07 lost to czec eventual runners up. Most of those guys playing "together" at high level together for many years. And the spain of now not so much dependant on one man scoring as in the past (raul) IMO. Besides they seem to have a great youth system and ability to keep them fellas together all thru they system. Until tnt take football seriously and men see that they can make a decent living from it our best ballers see getting a free education (us schol) the end game for them. Shaka is one of the few lucky ones to get both, at the end of the day if he football career did fall through he had a very good degree to fall back on. There may be others but he came to mind.

spideybuff · « **Reply #17 on:** June 23, 2009, 08:33:20 AM »

Not really applicable though cause Spain always look good,especially at the younger age groups so their recent success there is nothing really new. And they were notoriously bad travellers in foreign leagues so their teams always have been mainly domestic and playing together regularly in the past as well...

kicker · « **Reply #18 on:** June 23, 2009, 09:18:01 AM »

Spain has found the right mix. With Villa & Torres you have probably the best "pure" striking pair in the world currently...Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta (is he injured for Confed Cup?), you have top 2 or 3 of the top 10 creative middies in the world, Senna & Alonso, two of the top 5-10 holding middies...and with Puyol & Sergio Ramos at the back yuh have 2 of the top 5-10 central/wing backs in the world..I think it's mostly timing and fortune- sometimes in a nat'l program it just comes together like that- the right mix of youth, experience and a balance of talent spread across the field.

Under Del Bosque I think they might be better than than they were under Aragones- I wasn't awed by them in Euro 2008...In Euro 2008, they were neat & organized but their football wasn't that special in my opinion...The level of competition was just relatively poor- The France 2000, Holland 2000/2004, Czech Rep 2004 and Portugal 2000 were at least as good as, if not better than the Spain of Euro 2008 in my opinion....

To me, their one weakness is a tendency to lull themselves into a training ground routine where they pass the ball around alot at one speed, without being incisive. Their main strength is that all 11 players are comfortable in possession, and mobile off & on the ball, so every pass is calculated....

If they meet/beat Brazil on Sunday, they could possibly get a kind of confidence that would make it very difficult to topple them for a while....

palos · « **Reply #19 on:** June 23, 2009, 09:41:56 AM »

If they meet on Sunday, Spain NOT beatin this Brazil side.

Filho · « **Reply #20 on:** June 23, 2009, 09:51:40 AM »

Quote from: palos on June 20, 2009, 06:30:05 PM

Quote from: Filho on June 20, 2009, 03:37:59 PM
I've never seen a player improve over a year like Gerrard Pique.

Pique was ALWAYS a boss.

He was the best player on show in the U 20 world cup in Canada....when Sergio Aguero, Pato & Diego Capel had all the headlines.

He manners Pato when Spain played Brazil in Vancouver. At Man U....he was stifled & regressed. Moving back to Barca was the best thing that could have happened to him.

Watched that WC...And Pique was indeed a standout. But to be honest, he has improved since then and the guy who played the CL final against ManU and is now a regular in the Spanish squad is better than the guy who started the season for Barca. You could see (what looked like) a bit of nerves in the beginning. Man playing like an accomplish baller now, as if he doing this as long as Puyol and co.

And as a Brazil man, I have to correck yuh, but Pique and Pato didn't come up against each other much..pato was playing wide up front against Spain. Jo also had a tendency to pull wide. Pique wasn't playing like a marker, but was cleaning up de crosses and runs from deep. When Jo got hurta nd came out, Brazil employed a more traditional #9 (forget his name) who would have had more contact with Pique. Also, anyone realize Pato was 16 in that tournament and actually young enough to play in this year's Under 20 WC....Imagine, Brazil's top striker at Under 20 level is a kid called Walter. he was the top scorer in qualifying. Coach said he would be on the bench if he could have used Pato. Imagine..you are the top scorer for the Champions of South America / WC qualifying..and you not good enough to make the strongets starting 11

Rodney · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2009, 10:21:42 AM »

I think Pique was always ah boss player, his English experience did improve him as a player but I don't think he has significantly improved from what he was in the UK. I think his way of playing is more suited to Spain/Italy were play is less frenetic. I believe his early season jitters at Barca were more to do with him settling in to the Spanish style of play again. Nuff times I saw him with the reserves on MUTV getting caught in possession and not being dominant in the air...which was his two main failings (IMO) when playing in England. It was one of the main reasons the English media always seemed to view him as the weak link during Champions league games. It isn't that he wasn't good at those things is just he didn't adapt as well or a quickly as Vidic so he remained a fringe player. He was bound to come good given the oppertunity and an extended run as a starter.

Filho · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2009, 10:50:43 AM »

Quote from: Rodney on June 23, 2009, 10:21:42 AM

I think Pique was always ah boss player, his English experience did improve him as a player but I don't think he has significantly improved from what he was in the UK. I think his way of playing is more suited to Spain/Italy were play is less frenetic. I believe his early season jitters at Barca were more to do with him settling in to the Spanish style of play again. Nuff times I saw him with the reserves on MUTV getting caught in possession and not being dominant in the air...which was his two main failings (IMO) when playing in England. It was one of the main reasons the English media always seemed to view him as the weak link during Champions league games. It isn't that he wasn't good at those things is just he didn't adapt as well or a quickly as Vidic so he remained a fringe player. He was bound to come good given the oppertunity and an extended run as a starter.

don't know if I agree with everything you've said there, but fair enough. I realize many of you would not have shared my surprise or think the improvement was all that great cuz you had a different opinion of the player and/or his earlier performances. but i am not sure why you and palos seem to take my statement to mean that he wasn't good to begin with. you both made the point that he was always a boss. all i said was that he improved..boss players can improve too. but his performances at the end of the season have been majestic and have been an improvement over the early season form. sure it may simply have to do with getting a run in the side, or playing in a league that is more to his strengths (although his performances against ManU and Chelsea may indicate otherwise) but not all players take their chances the way he has and grown at such a rate. I actually find him to be the best central Spanish defender right now. Your last statement in bold is all I saying..he come real good this rounds and it's the best football he has played in his senior career..whatever the reasons. But I understand why you guys don't think it's that huge an improvement

Rodney · « **Reply #23 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:12:59 AM »

Quote from: Filho on June 23, 2009, 10:50:43 AM

Quote from: Rodney on June 23, 2009, 10:21:42 AM
I think Pique was always ah boss player, his English experience did improve him as a player but I don't think he has significantly improved from what he was in the UK. I think his way of playing is more suited to Spain/Italy were play is less frenetic. I believe his early season jitters at Barca were more to do with him settling in to the Spanish style of play again. Nuff times I saw him with the reserves on MUTV getting caught in possession and not being dominant in the air...which was his two main failings (IMO) when playing in England. It was one of the main reasons the English media always seemed to view him as the weak link during Champions league games. It isn't that he wasn't good at those things is just he didn't adapt as well or a quickly as Vidic so he remained a fringe player. He was bound to come good given the oppertunity and an extended run as a starter.

don't know if I agree with everything you've said there, but fair enough. I realize many of you would not have shared my surprise or think the improvement was all that great cuz you had a different opinion of the player and/or his earlier performances. but i am not sure why you and palos seem to take my statement to mean that he wasn't good to begin with. you both made the point that he was always a boss. all i said was that he improved..boss players can improve too. but his performances at the end of the season have been majestic and have been an improvement over the early season form. sure it may simply have to do with getting a run in the side, or playing in a league that is more to his strengths (although his performances against ManU and Chelsea may indicate otherwise) but not all players take their chances the way he has and grown at such a rate. I actually find him to be the best central Spanish defender right now. Your last statement in bold is all I saying..he come real good this rounds and it's the best football he has played in his senior career..whatever the reasons. But I understand why you guys don't think it's that huge an improvement

All I'm saying is he needed the oppertunity to show his ability, fuh various reasons Man Utd weren't willing to take a prolonged risk. Barca were willing to give him the oppertunity and he has shown what he can do. I dont think that is an improvement as a player but rather him finally showing what was already there. Hey, but we can agree to disagree. I respect your opinion. In the end we both agree that at this moment he is a very good defender.

kicker · « **Reply #24 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:22:43 AM »

I'm sure he was always good...and I'm sure he's improved.

Players improve- that's a given, especially young players.

If yuh getting a regular sweat at a side like Barca where yuh surrounded by insane talent & ability under good coaching, yuh bong tuh improve.

Palos & Rodney jus saying that what we're seeing now from him, he always had (based on his performances in the youth cup and the rep he has going into Man U as a young prospect)... just didn't have the time/chance to show it...yuh could argue that to death- no right or wrong answer to that I suppose depending on how yuh look at it....If yuh ask Pique himself, I'm pretty sure he'd say he's improved over the past season or so....but that of course is guessing too cause I eh know de fella

Marcos · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:45:58 AM »

Ronaldinho is still the greatest

Marcos · « **Reply #26 on:** June 23, 2009, 11:48:54 AM »

Quote from: kicker on June 23, 2009, 09:18:01 AM

The France 2000, Holland 2000/2004, Czech Rep 2004 and Portugal 2000 were at least as good as, if not better than the Spain of Euro 2008 in my opinion....

These sides didn't have a deadly strike force like Torres and Villa...esp Portugal

Observer · « **Reply #27 on:** June 23, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »

Quote from: palos on June 23, 2009, 09:41:56 AM

If they meet on Sunday, Spain NOT beatin this Brazil side.

I really hope these two meet and none of them stumble along the way.
With this Spain side Brazil will not see the ball as much as they would usually. Actually
Spain may (and I say may) be one of the few teams that can possess the ball more than Brazil. This may limit Brazil's ability to play the counter. One strength of Brazil is corners against them, they have a unique ability to counter effectively off corners. I for one want to see this match

palos · « **Reply #28 on:** June 23, 2009, 01:32:06 PM »

Quote from: Observer on June 23, 2009, 01:21:56 PM

Quote from: palos on June 23, 2009, 09:41:56 AM
If they meet on Sunday, Spain NOT beatin this Brazil side.

I really hope these two meet and none of them stumble along the way.
With this Spain side Brazil will not see the ball as much as they would usually. Actually
Spain may (and I say may) be one of the few teams that can possess the ball more than Brazil. This may limit Brazil's ability to play the counter. One strength of Brazil is corners against them, they have a unique ability to counter effectively off corners. I for one want to see this match

You're right. Spain may very well have more possession than Brazil.

But as always....Brazil's main weapon IMO....a weapon that opposing teams simply cannot seem to handle.....is their wing backs. Maicon and Cesar/Kleber will be too much for anybody the Spaniards have.....especially when Sergio Ramos push forward.

And that will be their undoing. Spain won't allow Robinho the freedom to roam as he did against the Italians....but then....what to do with Kaka?

PRESSHA.

kicker · « **Reply #29 on:** June 23, 2009, 01:51:22 PM »

Quote from: Observer on June 23, 2009, 01:21:56 PM

I really hope these two meet and none of them stumble along the way.

I agree... Potential to be one of the best int'l showdowns of all time... Spain is as good as they've ever been, and Brazil...well Brazil is Brazil - good, bad, in or out of form, yuh always expect them to play at a certain level.