U-20s benefitted from five years of preparation.

[elan]

I think elan has a valid point, but up to a point. We should be satisfied because the team achieved the ultimate goal, to qualify for the World Cup. We should ask questions though as to after what was done by the team if 4th place was satisfactory.

At this point, given our history I'd say the result was good enough even with the better than normal preparation. However, we need to be careful that we get comfortable just making it to the big show and not progressing from that level.

I don't think our professional league is an adequate "finishing school" for the boys. The pace is generally too pedestrian, the tactics are amateurish and the efficiency of the opponent insuffiecient to really test them. They will be tested mainly because their opponents will consist of stronger more experienced players, but it generally will not prepare them sufficiently for where they are going or who they will be playing against. That said, given our resources to prepare the team outside (camps and international friendlies in Europe, etc.) is limited and this may be our best bet.

Thank you very much.....because ah man ask question and want more he eh patriotic and he pessimistic.   Once anything go right for we does take it with we eyes closed.   

Anyone think that's the finish product of the USA team, no way. Look what man missing, putting the team in a league shows that we thinking that we have the product in hand or it coming of the production line now. We not there yet and to say that playing in a league is development is a false positive. these guys need to train and then go play a couple of games in europe, come back home, train, play a couple caribbean teams, etc.

This have nothing to do with hating or not being "satisfied' it have to do with not getting complacent and letting yuh guard down (our biggest problem - as we motto is we reach). Is now pressure must be applied and what we have     is not "good enough" not just yet. So because this has been our best preparation means we cannot push for more? We may be small but we have the resource to rival many a country, but you all happy to sit back and say we went toe-to-toe with the USA, yet the USA is Shyte according to most of us.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not always be the ultimate fan. Call me waggonist or whatever, but I keeping real for them fellas.

[D.H.W]

yuh could of say that all the time  i now get the point yuh trying to make 

[palos]

I think elan has a valid point, but up to a point. We should be satisfied because the team achieved the ultimate goal, to qualify for the World Cup. We should ask questions though as to after what was done by the team if 4th place was satisfactory.

At this point, given our history I'd say the result was good enough even with the better than normal preparation. However, we need to be careful that we get comfortable just making it to the big show and not progressing from that level.

I don't think our professional league is an adequate "finishing school" for the boys. The pace is generally too pedestrian, the tactics are amateurish and the efficiency of the opponent insuffiecient to really test them. They will be tested mainly because their opponents will consist of stronger more experienced players, but it generally will not prepare them sufficiently for where they are going or who they will be playing against. That said, given our resources to prepare the team outside (camps and international friendlies in Europe, etc.) is limited and this may be our best bet.

Thank you very much.....because ah man ask question and want more he eh patriotic and he pessimistic.   Once anything go right for we does take it with we eyes closed.   

Anyone think that's the finish product of the USA team, no way. Look what man missing, putting the team in a league shows that we thinking that we have the product in hand or it coming of the production line now. We not there yet and to say that playing in a league is development is a false positive. these guys need to train and then go play a couple of games in europe, come back home, train, play a couple caribbean teams, etc.

This have nothing to do with hating or not being "satisfied' it have to do with not getting complacent and letting yuh guard down (our biggest problem - as we motto is we reach). Is now pressure must be applied and what we have     is not "good enough" not just yet. So because this has been our best preparation means we cannot push for more? We may be small but we have the resource to rival many a country, but you all happy to sit back and say we went toe-to-toe with the USA, yet the USA is Shyte according to most of us.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not always be the ultimate fan. Call me waggonist or whatever, but I keeping real for them fellas.

U so busy defendin yuh position dat up to now you still eh acknowledge dat de team did VERY WELL to achieve their major objective of qualifying for the world cup.  And dis ent bout no complacency or guardin against it.  De thread ask to what extent did playin in de Pro League contribute to the U 20's SUCCESS.  And yes...they SUCCESSFULLY qualified for Egypt.  Fuss ting u go look to post is 1 win, 2 draws and 1 loss in 5 years of preparation is nutting to be happy about.  Dat eh no guardin against complacency lyrics.  Daz a out and out f**k up.  And DIS team doh deserve dat.

[elan]

I think elan has a valid point, but up to a point. We should be satisfied because the team achieved the ultimate goal, to qualify for the World Cup. We should ask questions though as to after what was done by the team if 4th place was satisfactory.

At this point, given our history I'd say the result was good enough even with the better than normal preparation. However, we need to be careful that we get comfortable just making it to the big show and not progressing from that level.

I don't think our professional league is an adequate "finishing school" for the boys. The pace is generally too pedestrian, the tactics are amateurish and the efficiency of the opponent insuffiecient to really test them. They will be tested mainly because their opponents will consist of stronger more experienced players, but it generally will not prepare them sufficiently for where they are going or who they will be playing against. That said, given our resources to prepare the team outside (camps and international friendlies in Europe, etc.) is limited and this may be our best bet.

Thank you very much.....because ah man ask question and want more he eh patriotic and he pessimistic.   Once anything go right for we does take it with we eyes closed.   

Anyone think that's the finish product of the USA team, no way. Look what man missing, putting the team in a league shows that we thinking that we have the product in hand or it coming of the production line now. We not there yet and to say that playing in a league is development is a false positive. these guys need to train and then go play a couple of games in europe, come back home, train, play a couple caribbean teams, etc.

This have nothing to do with hating or not being "satisfied' it have to do with not getting complacent and letting yuh guard down (our biggest problem - as we motto is we reach). Is now pressure must be applied and what we have     is not "good enough" not just yet. So because this has been our best preparation means we cannot push for more? We may be small but we have the resource to rival many a country, but you all happy to sit back and say we went toe-to-toe with the USA, yet the USA is Shyte according to most of us.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not always be the ultimate fan. Call me waggonist or whatever, but I keeping real for them fellas.

U so busy defendin yuh position dat up to now you still eh acknowledge dat de team did VERY WELL to achieve their major objective of qualifying for the world cup.  And dis ent bout no complacency or guardin against it.  De thread ask to what extent did playin in de Pro League contribute to the U 20's SUCCESS.  And yes...they SUCCESSFULLY qualified for Egypt.  Fuss ting u go look to post is 1 win, 2 draws and 1 loss in 5 years of preparation is nutting to be happy about.  Dat eh no guardin against complacency lyrics.  Daz a out and out f**k up.  And DIS team doh deserve dat.

I don't have to defend no position as it is my position. I don't pat people on their back, I keep nudging them forward....hard luck. Tough love.
It's a given that we did well, no disputes there, but that is not what I am addressing. we dealing with continuous preparation and development.

"I have no thoughts whatsoever that I have surpassed them," Japan manager Tatsunori Hara said through a translator. "But the American baseball team came to recognize the Japanese team. To some extent, that is something I believe is the result of this."

Japan Manager after beating the USA 9-4 at the WBC.

[truetrini]

That USA team eh even start spring training yet, the japanese, Koreans and de rest ah dem teams prepared for this tournament, the US coach used everybody like is ah training camp, de Yanks eh taking these games seriously.

Back to the T&T team, so we had one win, but we also stopped other better prepared teams from walking all over us, indeed had it not been for poor finishing they would have been crying.

The Americans sent the best they had available, as did the Mexicans. Hondurans, Canadians etc.  Those teams, especially the US team had superb preparation, they had a camp in Madrid Spain, while our boys were in the Super league, the US U-20 were playing Real madrid Reserves, Rayo Vallencano Reserves, and competing in Northern ireland Milk Cup against teams from europe like Belgium, France etc.

they played Mexico, Man U reserves, Bolton reserves, and the Campos Verde International Tournament in Portugal!

They also played in the Copa Chivas Tournament!

that team WAS very well prepared and we held our own...we did exceptionally well

[elan]

That USA team eh even start spring training yet, the japanese, Koreans and de rest ah dem teams prepared for this tournament, the US coach used everybody like is ah training camp, de Yanks eh taking these games seriously.

Back to the T&T team, so we had one win, but we also stopped other better prepared teams from walking all over us, indeed had it not been for poor finishing they would have been crying.

The Americans sent the best they had available, as did the Mexicans. Hondurans, Canadians etc.  Those teams, especially the US team had superb preparation, they had a camp in Madrid Spain, while our boys were in the Super league, the US U-20 were playing Real madrid Reserves, Rayo Vallencano Reserves, and competing in Northern ireland Milk Cup against teams from europe like Belgium, France etc.

they played Mexico, Man U reserves, Bolton reserves, and the Campos Verde International Tournament in Portugal!

They also played in the Copa Chivas Tournament!

that team WAS very well prepared and we held our own...we did exceptionally well

Thank you...very much.   

[vb]

First of all who wrote this article??

Secondly, some good preparation (by our standards) was done and we saw some pretty decent results. The Super Powers of Concacaf, the US, Mexico and CR, who have hammered us in previous youth tournaments, couldn't beat us in regular time. A BIG improvement over some of the cut ass by four or five goals in the past.

I appreciate this. However, I have to wonder if we can't beat these teams at home. What will happen when we have to face the likes of Russia, Egypt or England on foreign soil.

The good news is that we have a few months to improve.
Playing in the PFL is a great idea but not realistic. What club owner who is spending more than half a million dollars a year is going to have key players off his team?

If the team is to be diluted then let them continue in the SUper League for the sake of gelling. However, manipulate the PFL schedule so that they can have a break and play the Pro teams or have them off to play foreign opposition.

Peace,
VB

[Rodney]

Haven't we had a similar discussion in some other thread; I had to give in then, so I guess I tempting fate now....but anyway.

Well said Vb and to an extent elan (at least ah get what yuh was trying to say). The achievement of the national U-20 side deserves credit.....but IMHO some of the responses here do seem to show that a few of our forumites believe that T&T has reached its "level" within regional football. That is; As long as we qualify fuh tournaments we happy, doh worry how we do it! We seem to believe that just getting there deserves unreserved celebration and just being there will improve our standard in the longterm....any comments to the contrary of this belief should be ridiculed.....I ain't so sure.

Shouldn't we always be aiming higher, we may never regularly beat the US and Mexico due to a multitude of reasons, but shouldn't we always aim to do this, especially at home. Qualifying tournaments are just that, World Finals are a whole different ballgame. Ah not saying we should have expectations like Fans of Brazil (must win every tournament and then be hypercritical if we don't) or be deluded like most England Fans (always expecting a tournament winning team when our record clearly disagrees). I just think that we as fans should always look for improvement rather than simply being a cheerleading squad. Don't get me wrong it has its place, but we have been there before and I for one have experienced the pretty one-sided games we have been involved in during the previous youth World Cups we have been to, after each one the message was always, 'we learned a great deal', but have we really. Though no one expected our previous teams to return as world champions, each time we went Flag waving with high hopes of good performances yet returned battered always collecting a 5+ along the way. Other sides seem to raise their game when they get to a higher level while we seem to bottom out. Is it too much to ask for close competitive games, a 2-1 loss as opposed to a 5-0 or 6-1 cutarse? We have had more than enough chances to learn that lesson by now. If they had dominated this qualifying tournament I would have been impressed, but as we were at home, though happy to get to another youth world cup, I ain't too confident of any marked improvement on our record at the big show. As always I will be delighted if I'm wrong.

I do think there should be congratulations and well deserved at that, but not just well done back slapping stuff. I think congratulations should be more measured this time and directed towards the administration for finally seeming to have a strategy on progressive development and the players should be congratulated for proving they are developing as players and a team. The easy stuff is over, now they need to show the world that they can raise their game even higher. If that can be done I would dish out nuff backslapping then.

[spideybuff]

I say I didn't want to get back involved in this thread but I find men real backtracking on this site these days and now Elan getting big props for twisting his words and having people falling for that.

The thread clearly was about whether or not the team benefitted from 5 years of preparation. Elan clearly said "we won 1, tie 2 and lose 1" and he find that wasn't good enough after 5 years.

What part of that suddenly become "we do well but now we can't rest on our laurels cause the rest of the teams constantly improving?"

I agree with the latter part as does all of us on the thread more than likely, but doh come and change your tune and now making it sound like that is what u was saying all the time, nah man. Like we lose the art of debate in this society.

Elan, I not trying to target you here, it just irks me and it touch a sore point cause I guess i relating it to the same nonsense going on with Manning and Nunez Teshiera and Jack and Panday and all of them: where they just saying one thing, then getting catch and trying to twist it to mean something else. And we the people just falling for it...all the damn time. It really sickening me, dread...

[D.H.W]

spideybuff  u call him out there 

[andre samuel]

Well said Spidey!!

Elan knew exactly what he said at the time and is now using the interpretation of some of forumites to change his tune and gain favour.

I am very proud of this team.  I am at a loss as to how elan would read Truetrini's post (sorry trinity cross, never liked the new name) and quote it to "highlight" his point when he is directly discounting all that u said previously by showing that we did exceptionally well to compete the way that we did given the elvel of preparation of the opposition.

ah love it!!

[Rodney]

This is definitely going the same way as the Lasana article thread. In that one people was saying the man was insensitive in writing an article that seemed to diminish the achievement of the U-20's, that we should congratulate and not denigrate. Others, myself included was saying he was actually commenting on the way the qualification process had become easier....I didn't see much of a problem with it. The timing of such an article; yes, but the content (which was true by the way!) no.

I probably sounding like the fella agent ( ah go work out ah side deal later  ) but I don't see the big issue with elan's initial comment (though I wouldn't have worded it that way). I was not bamboozled by his subterfuge! I understood what he was saying completely. As for some of his proceeding statements well ah go leave them for you and him to thrash out as I agree some of them a bit confusing. But the initial comment was in context with the thread and was merely stating his opinion.....that considering the U-20's had 5 years prep he wasn't as impressed as some with the resulting 1-2-1 record. I agree that they achieved their goal and should be applauded but I also agree with elan that it ain't as impressive as some making it sound. As I keep saying if this was our first ever qualification then fine that would have been a HUGE achievement but these fellas have been here before, in many other countries such a scenario would have resulted in a expectation of qualification and probably little if any celebration at all. That they are the first T&T team to demonstrate true evidence of progression/development and were the focal point of a local development programme that actually lasted and produced a tangible result (amazing for T&T I would venture!!), that is what should be celebrated with pride much more than the actual achievement.

[elan]

I am not back tracking....I still think we could have done better than the 1-1-2 given the "great" preparation we had. Men then challenge me on the level of preparation and we qualifying for the WC now and before, so I addressed that.
I not changing anything. My standard regarding football are really high, sometimes unrealistically so. I stand by everything I say, we have not reach and we are not on the level of the American, I don't even think the Gap has closed that much as some infer to.

[elan]

Well said Spidey!!

Elan knew exactly what he said at the time and is now using the interpretation of some of forumites to change his tune and gain favour.

I am very proud of this team.  I am at a loss as to how elan would read Truetrini's post (sorry trinity cross, never liked the new name) and quote it to "highlight" his point when he is directly discounting all that u said previously by showing that we did exceptionally well to compete the way that we did given the elvel of preparation of the opposition.

ah love it!!

That's because I read his post one way and you read it another way. You see it as they being better prepared than us and we do just as well if not better than the USA. Whereas I read his post as we can do better in our preparation and onwards. What he meant it as only he can say.

Why would I want to gain favor, from who. I don't need to gain the approval of anyone, I am a big man. I don't go around trying to gain favor from men who I don't even know. You have to be joking with that statement. I am at a different level.......hard luck.

[pardners]

This is definitely going the same way as the Lasana article thread. In that one people was saying the man was insensitive in writing an article that seemed to diminish the achievement of the U-20's, that we should congratulate and not denigrate. Others, myself included was saying he was actually commenting on the way the qualification process had become easier....I didn't see much of a problem with it. The timing of such an article; yes, but the content (which was true by the way!) no.

I probably sounding like the fella agent ( ah go work out ah side deal later  ) but I don't see the big issue with elan's initial comment (though I wouldn't have worded it that way). I was not bamboozled by his subterfuge! I understood what he was saying completely. As for some of his proceeding statements well ah go leave them for you and him to thrash out as I agree some of them a bit confusing. But the initial comment was in context with the thread and was merely stating his opinion.....that considering the U-20's had 5 years prep he wasn't as impressed as some with the resulting 1-2-1 record. I agree that they achieved their goal and should be applauded but I also agree with elan that it ain't as impressive as some making it sound. As I keep saying if this was our first ever qualification then fine that would have been a HUGE achievement but these fellas have been here before, in many other countries such a scenario would have resulted in a expectation of qualification and probably little if any celebration at all. That they are the first T&T team to demonstrate true evidence of progression/development and were the focal point of a local development programme that actually lasted and produced a tangible result (amazing for T&T I would venture!!), that is what should be celebrated with pride much more than the actual achievement.

Well I like how you sum it up there Rodney.  I was going to say the same thing too.

So since I can't say anymore on that, what I will comment on is what Fenwick was saying the other day...that we tend to measure our success as to whether we qualify for the WC or not.  I dare say venture a little further in that right now we tend to measure our development by comparing our results with the US.  It funny how on this forum plenty men say the US football boring, stereotype etc, yet we cyah beat them at an level and still want to measure our success against them.

The other thing that strike me is that of the technical team tactics during the tournament, which I feel possibly robbed us from winning the tournament and perhaps might have provoked a different response from Elan.  I can't understand why since in the games against Honduras in Tobago, when the coach used the second string team in the first game and lose 3-1, this after all your preparation in the Super League, and now to be playing the FIRST international against a top team in CONCACAF.  One would've thought that you would want to test your best squad in such a game.  In the qualifiers, we win the first game and draw the second one...why you want to play a second string team in the final first round game.  You would expect that if you win the game then you play the second place team in the other group, thus enhancing your chances of playing in the final.

It is just not enough to qualify for WC.  OH GOSH MAN....we playing at home, yuh begging for crowd support, yuh want yuh players to get into a winning habit against these other teams.  Real people come out to see Leston Paul et al play in the semis and yuh have them fellas on the bench, when there was no reports of injuries, so we have to believe is just to give the other players a sweat. We paying to see quality football and if yuh doh put quality on the field, then yuh would not get quality results and hence the perception that there is no development and benefit from the preparations.

[dumpalewie]

I think elan has a valid point, but up to a point. We should be satisfied because the team achieved the ultimate goal, to qualify for the World Cup. We should ask questions though as to after what was done by the team if 4th place was satisfactory.

At this point, given our history I'd say the result was good enough even with the better than normal preparation. However, we need to be careful that we get comfortable just making it to the big show and not progressing from that level.

I don't think our professional league is an adequate "finishing school" for the boys. The pace is generally too pedestrian, the tactics are amateurish and the efficiency of the opponent insuffiecient to really test them. They will be tested mainly because their opponents will consist of stronger more experienced players, but it generally will not prepare them sufficiently for where they are going or who they will be playing against. That said, given our resources to prepare the team outside (camps and international friendlies in Europe, etc.) is limited and this may be our best bet.

Thank you very much.....because ah man ask question and want more he eh patriotic and he pessimistic.   Once anything go right for we does take it with we eyes closed.   

Anyone think that's the finish product of the USA team, no way. Look what man missing, putting the team in a league shows that we thinking that we have the product in hand or it coming of the production line now. We not there yet and to say that playing in a league is development is a false positive. these guys need to train and then go play a couple of games in europe, come back home, train, play a couple caribbean teams, etc.

This have nothing to do with hating or not being "satisfied' it have to do with not getting complacent and letting yuh guard down (our biggest problem - as we motto is we reach). Is now pressure must be applied and what we have     is not "good enough" not just yet. So because this has been our best preparation means we cannot push for more? We may be small but we have the resource to rival many a country, but you all happy to sit back and say we went toe-to-toe with the USA, yet the USA is Shyte according to most of us.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not always be the ultimate fan. Call me waggonist or whatever, but I keeping real for them fellas.

Real Nonsense!!!

I think you just arguing for arguing sake. You are not making much sense.

Progress occurs one step at a time. By any measure, the results of the tournament show that we have progressed.

Obviously, playing in the Super League did help with that progress. I don't understand your objection to them playing in the Pro League. It is a good level of competition for the U 20 team. I would hope that this is a supplement to a program of international friendlies. However, it will benefit them.

I think you are being shortsighted by arguing that 4th place is horrible. You argue that we are happy where we are, and have no concrete plans to improve. However, you are quick to state that we haven't seen the best of the US yet. Do you think that you have seen the best we have to offer? Is it impossible for us to get better?

Come again with this keeping it real nonsense. That is a colonial mentality and most people here have moved past that.

[truetrini]

elan my post was not to support your arguement.  The first part addressed the US baseball team.

the second part showed that the gap ahs closed and closed significantly too.

Our players did not play half as many good teams as the US did, and yet we held them for 120 minutes and had our chances too!

[elan]

elan my post was not to support your arguement.  The first part addressed the US baseball team.

the second part showed that the gap ahs closed and closed significantly too.

Our players did not play half as many good teams as the US did, and yet we held them for 120 minutes and had our chances too!

I thought you would say that as you missed why I qouted the baseball, but I still used it as support for what I am trying to get across (no Samuel I not changing I was waiting for this to come up). The baseball quote was to show how sane, rational people evaluate performance and achievement. The Japanese team thrashed the USA at their game and the quote was the reply of the team manager. He was not go off about the equaling the Americans, but about getting them to take note (take Japan more seriously when coming to baseball) of the Japanese team. It did not take away from the achievement but he kept it in perspective- something we have little of once we winning.

I think elan has a valid point, but up to a point. We should be satisfied because the team achieved the ultimate goal, to qualify for the World Cup. We should ask questions though as to after what was done by the team if 4th place was satisfactory.

At this point, given our history I'd say the result was good enough even with the better than normal preparation. However, we need to be careful that we get comfortable just making it to the big show and not progressing from that level.

I don't think our professional league is an adequate "finishing school" for the boys. The pace is generally too pedestrian, the tactics are amateurish and the efficiency of the opponent insuffiecient to really test them. They will be tested mainly because their opponents will consist of stronger more experienced players, but it generally will not prepare them sufficiently for where they are going or who they will be playing against. That said, given our resources to prepare the team outside (camps and international friendlies in Europe, etc.) is limited and this may be our best bet.

Thank you very much.....because ah man ask question and want more he eh patriotic and he pessimistic.   Once anything go right for we does take it with we eyes closed.   

Anyone think that's the finish product of the USA team, no way. Look what man missing, putting the team in a league shows that we thinking that we have the product in hand or it coming of the production line now. We not there yet and to say that playing in a league is development is a false positive. these guys need to train and then go play a couple of games in europe, come back home, train, play a couple caribbean teams, etc.

This have nothing to do with hating or not being "satisfied' it have to do with not getting complacent and letting yuh guard down (our biggest problem - as we motto is we reach). Is now pressure must be applied and what we have     is not "good enough" not just yet. So because this has been our best preparation means we cannot push for more? We may be small but we have the resource to rival many a country, but you all happy to sit back and say we went toe-to-toe with the USA, yet the USA is Shyte according to most of us.

We need to keep things in perspective, and not always be the ultimate fan. Call me waggonist or whatever, but I keeping real for them fellas.

Real Nonsense!!!

I think you just arguing for arguing sake. You are not making much sense.

Progress occurs one step at a time. By any measure, the results of the tournament show that we have progressed.

Obviously, playing in the Super League did help with that progress. I don't understand your objection to them playing in the Pro League. It is a good level of competition for the U 20 team. I would hope that this is a supplement to a program of international friendlies. However, it will benefit them.

I think you are being shortsighted by arguing that 4th place is horrible. You argue that we are happy where we are, and have no concrete plans to improve. However, you are quick to state that we haven't seen the best of the US yet. Do you think that you have seen the best we have to offer? Is it impossible for us to get better?

Come again with this keeping it real nonsense. That is a colonial mentality and most people here have moved past that.

Bad man you so far off it not funny. Another one talking out the side of he neck. Take off the rose tinted glasses and read what I write. Saying we could/should have done better is not the same as saying I think the results were horrific. It's not all or nothing.

If you cannot understand why them playing in the Pro League COULD be counter productive to development them, then explaining it would make no sense to you either.

Colonial mentality what a laugh I not that old brother man, as a matter of fact I not even sure what that is. I guess supporting blindly is non colonial mentality.  I guess Fenwick eh know what he talking about when he say we have to stop judging we development by making a WC.

To show how little we serious about this thing is to only look at our Senior team. They qualify for a world cup and hwat happen since then? I know, I know, we qualify for the U-17 and the U-20s. So it's a big difference to compare the Senior team, as development stop at the U-20s. Jokers.