Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
Sports => Football => Topic started by: asylumseeker on October 21, 2007, 02:04:29 PM
-
Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.
For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.
With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.
-
Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.
For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.
With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.
Are you reproducing an article from about 5 years or so ago?
Because Venezuela has "exceeded our brand" from AT LEAST that time.
-
And St Kitts, Grenada and B'dos nippin at we heels
-
Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.
-
Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.
For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.
With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.
Are you reproducing an article from about 5 years or so ago?
Because Venezuela has "exceeded our brand" from AT LEAST that time.
Palos, that's interesting. In the last 3 or so years I've seen them make strides, but I haven't felt until now that they are well on the way.
I was following an interview with Rene Higuita this morning and he was adamant about what's going on in Venezuelan football. He's playing professionally again for a team there. New squad. Just promoted into the Venezuelan top flight after only one year in existence. Mostly local players with a couple Argentinians, Colombians and a Brazilian.
He was very lucid in how he presented the scene. Although you refer to 5 years ago (and I eh doubt yuh at all) I think their arrival was firmly announced during @ the Copa. Their is a lot of optimism in Venezuela right now and I'm really curious as to how they will acquit themselves during the qualifiers.
[Plus, there was some mention of Pibe Valderrama being on the ground there as well. Haven't verified in what capacity yet.
-
Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.
Not sure whther that's an appropriate gauge given that we're coming out of two different confederations.
-
Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.
For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.
With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.
Ah doh quite understand what yuh getting at, because we never even beat Venezuela in 5 attempts.
-
Perhaps I know what he is getting at.
TT must play the 5th (or is it 6th) team in S. America for the right to go to the WC.
A much bigger headache than a third placed team from Asia.
Venezueal has made TREMENDOUS strides in the last 6 years. They are no longer the joke or easy 3pts that they were in the old days.
If we have to play them,it will be no cakewalk.
They may have beaten us in the past, but that was a shitty Ven. side in an exhibition, akin to losing to Iceland.
Even if TT doesn't meet Ven., Lord help us if is Colombia or Peru at high alt. no amount of postive thinking will combat that obstacle.
VB
-
There a lot of angles involved in why I brought this up.
Regardless of our inconsistent results, we are somewhat regarded as a football nation. Despite the fact that our approach for international match days has been uneven, every Central American and Mexican I have spoken with treats us as 'legitimate'.
Perception wise the Venezuelans were not getting that kind of reaction within CONMEBOL. Generally, our football profile seemed higher than theirs and the FIFA rankings [whatever we think of them] traditionally bore that out. Granted, these days the ELO rankings show them as stronger. However, this is testament to their progress.
I'm looking at this from the view of how the game has developed comprehensively in their context versus ours.
Now Venezuela has players scattered all over the globe [Germany, Greece, Portugal, Bulgaria, Mexico, Argentina, Turkey, Cyprus, USA, Italy and Spain]. They've come a long way in a very short time.
We knocked on the door in '74. Again in '90 and finally made it to Germany in '06. Back then Venezuela was an absolute non-entity and occasional non-participant. Yet today we're both in a situation in which we're starting to place players abroad with consistency and we're both at a crucial stage in our development.
My contention is that Venezuela has the platform to get where we would like to be faster than we possibly may get there [and that national philosophy thread has a lot to do with what we do and how] - 2006 WC qualification aside - anybody here comfortable with a one-off?
I think the comparison between them and what we have is reasonable. It's not a precise fit and it's not going to be decided on purely quantitative data or even qualitative info. I am commenting based on my read of the deal. I figure there will be several perspectives. If we expect to be a WC/global standard-bearer then we better assess our situation vis-a-vis the likes of (at least) the second tier South American countries.
The other day ah was checking out South Florida's roster and ah buck up a Venezuelan yute listed as having been part of Atletico Madrid's youth team. Without knowing more, that's fairly impressive.
We eh go find too many of their players in an English-speaking environment and that factor alone will be plenty in their favor.
****
Ah doh quite understand what yuh getting at, because we never even beat Venezuela in 5 attempts.
Tallman, that's good info to review. Forward wid de details nah.
Guidance.
-
This is laughable , sorry if ah so dread about this thread, but I never know a time when Trinidad and Tobago was better than or on par with Venezuela.
Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group. Realistically we at odd sometimes magical times match the USA and Mexico for 20 mins in a game.
What I personally was hoping for was that after 2006 the coaching and development of the national team would bring us up to par with Mexico and definitely the US. Then we could be going into qualifiers with more confidence.
-
Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group.
Unless Gally was de coach ent? ;D
-
Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group.
Unless Gally was de coach ent? ;D
At least it would be cultural . ;D ;D
-
We may not have beaten them in five outings, but ah pretty sure we ddn't lose every gaem.
I remember the Ven.s coming for a 2 or 3 game series back in the 80s.
I think we won or drew the first game. In the second, the TT squad was given a penalty, and the WHOLE Ven. team walk off the field.
TM give us the stats nah?
Peace,
VB
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
-
venezuela done leave we in de dust.
that is the effect of football administration with a purpose and a plan.
-
These are the results I dug up:
1. Friendly (home) July 2003
TT 2 : VEN 2 [0:1 @ the half]
2. Friendly (away) April 2003
VEN 3 : TT 0 [2:0 @ the half]
3. Friendly (home) May 1996
TT 0 : VEN 0
4. Friendly (home) July 1996
TT 0: VEN 0
5. Friendly (away) November 1971
VEN 1 : TT 0
I haven't found any evidence of matches between 1996 and 2003. Home and away is from our perspective.
***
Venezuela against CONCACAF opponents
... September 2007 v. Panama in Venezuela 1:1 [0:0] (friendly)
... June 2007 v. Canada in Venezuela 2:2 [2:1] (friendly)
... May 2007 v. Honduras VEN 2: HON 1 [2:1] in Ven (friendly)
March 2007 v. Cuba VEN 3: CUBA 1 [2:0] (friendly)
... February 2007 MEX 3 : VEN 1 played in San Diego (friendly) [2-0 @ half]
... November 2006 VEN 2 : GUAT 1 [1:0] friendly in Ven
... August 2006 v. HOND 0-0 in Ven
... May 2006 lost 1-0 versus Mexico in the US (friendly)
... December 2005 ... Tied Panama 1-1 in Caracas (friendly)
... December 2004, Guatemala beat them at home 1-0 (friendly)
... Jamaica played them April 2004 in Kingston (friendly) Result 2:1 final and at the half. In favour of Jamaica.
... They played Haiti in August 2003. The result of that game was VEN 3 : Haiti 2 [0:0 @ the half ... friendly played in Maracaibo.]
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either
Do you see the relevance of your own post?
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either
Do you see the relevance of your own post?
I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread
-
I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread
zeppo just givin ah lil picong...it might ah come across as lil malicious and pointless, because picong is ah trini art
all men have to do is remind him about the setta cut ass dat usa basketball recieve from greece, lithuania and everybody other country dat could care less about b-ball at the last world championships and uncle sam go hadda dip he stove top hat
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.
Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly
That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more
-
Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.
Which is why I see the relevance of his statement...at least I find it no less relevant than a good number of other responses in this and other threads. Given the apparent consensus in this thread that Venezuela has surpassed TnT in footballing, an examination as to where exactly (specifically, but also in the grander scheme of things) Venezuelan football is, helps clarify the situation in TnT. An analogy that I'm sure will confuse many, but I'll offer it all the same:
Party A: Iraq today is much closer to the mythical Eden than Trinidad and Tobago.
Party B: ...and imagine that today in Iraq the life of an American dog is worth more than the life of the average Iraqi citizen.
...I'd be surprised if you can't see that Party B's response is also a commentary on the state of things in Trinidad.
Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly. That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more
The true apples and oranges comparison may be your comparison of football in Venezuela to football in the US. Given that they are both marginal sports in terms of popularity...football's status is more easily understood here in the US than the marginalization of the sport in a country where you'd think it would naturally take root. Venezuela is surrounded by neighbors who are passionate about one thing and one thing only...football. Looking at these neighbors Venezuela is indistinct from them in terms of culture, history, ethnicity etc. The US is also surrounded by two countries that are passionate for football...although Canadians prefer to play it on ice with men on skates...if you get my drift. Venezuela has no excuse as to why football is so marginalized. Certainly they receive even less support than the sport does here in the US, for at least there's a thriving professional leagues, with a multi-year revenue now coming in from Television contracts. Big name foreign players see football in the US as a product that they'd very much like to be a part of. Not so with Venezuela. You can't even justify the comparison given the strides that American football has made. Understandable why the US has surpassed TnT...resources, that's it in a nutshell. Resources that can be invested in player and program development etc.
If Venezuela has indeed surpassed TnT, what excuse do we have for that? I'll leave it to Zeppo to elaborate more on his statement, but from the inference I derived, it's actually a brief, but pretty poignant analysis of the dire straits in which we find our Trini selves.
-
I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread
...that even with scant resources and support Venezuela has managed to 'surpass' TnT in footballing (if the opinions here are to be accepted).
-
Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.
As for whether or not Venezuela pass us, it very hard to say.
I observe simply that they seem to hold their own against mid level Concacaf opposition in the last 4 years (anything not named Mexico/US), that we haven't ever beaten them in an official match and that they are now coming into their own against south american opposition that we generally consider superior to us.
-
Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.
Which is why I see the relevance of his statement...at least I find it no less relevant than a good number of other responses in this and other threads. Given the apparent consensus in this thread that Venezuela has surpassed TnT in footballing, an examination as to where exactly (specifically, but also in the grander scheme of things) Venezuelan football is, helps clarify the situation in TnT.
An analogy that I'm sure will confuse many, but I'll offer it all the same:
Party A: Iraq today is much closer to the mythical Eden than Trinidad and Tobago.
Party B: ...and imagine that today in Iraq the life of an American dog is worth more than the life of the average Iraqi citizen.
...I'd be surprised if you can't see that Party B's response is also a commentary on the state of things in Trinidad.
I don't think what you've written here is analogous to Zeppos' statement. Zeppo says that baseball is the #1 sport in Venezuela. We can infer that he is assuming football is the #1 sport in T&T, if indeed his statement is meant as a comparison. Now, saying Iraq is closer to Eden than T&T, is an ordinal ranking. In terms of closeness to Eden, Iraq ranks above T&T. Therefore the 2nd statement you make says something about T&T. Zeppo's statement, at best, can give you 2 independent ordinal rankings. That is a) Baseball is more popular than football in Venezuela, and b) Football is more popular than all other sports in T&T. However, you cannot rank the popularity of football in Venezuela to that of T&T from that statement beacause, like I said..the 2 rankings are ordinal at best. If he gave numbers or percentages of the population that support football in each country, that would be one thing, or relative levels of funding. As it stands, a marginal sport in Venezuela could still be more popular than the most popular sport in T&T, even if the actual % of the population that follows the sport is considerably smaller.
Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly. That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more
The true apples and oranges comparison may be your comparison of football in Venezuela to football in the US. Given that they are both marginal sports in terms of popularity...football's status is more easily understood here in the US than the marginalization of the sport in a country where you'd think it would naturally take root. Venezuela is surrounded by neighbors who are passionate about one thing and one thing only...football. Looking at these neighbors Venezuela is indistinct from them in terms of culture, history, ethnicity etc. The US is also surrounded by two countries that are passionate for football...although Canadians prefer to play it on ice with men on skates...if you get my drift. Venezuela has no excuse as to why football is so marginalized. Certainly they receive even less support than the sport does here in the US, for at least there's a thriving professional leagues, with a multi-year revenue now coming in from Television contracts. Big name foreign players see football in the US as a product that they'd very much like to be a part of. Not so with Venezuela. You can't even justify the comparison given the strides that American football has made. Understandable why the US has surpassed TnT...resources, that's it in a nutshell. Resources that can be invested in player and program development etc.
If Venezuela has indeed surpassed TnT, what excuse do we have for that? I'll leave it to Zeppo to elaborate more on his statement, but from the inference I derived, it's actually a brief, but pretty poignant analysis of the dire straits in which we find our Trini selves.
if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5. What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.
-
Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.
As for whether or not Venezuela pass us, it very hard to say.
I observe simply that they seem to hold their own against mid level Concacaf opposition in the last 4 years (anything not named Mexico/US), that we haven't ever beaten them in an official match and that they are now coming into their own against south american opposition that we generally consider superior to us.
Ent? Watch how I ask the question. I feel Zeppo was taking a dig (cuz i really couldn't see the relevance). I engaging in a more theoretical debate with BnS now, but initially I was jes' trying to call out this fella
-
Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.
-
Good Evening Guys.
It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.
Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.
-
And I also agree with Observer statement.
-
Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.
I'm not falling into any trap at all...I'm well familiar with Zeppo's posts. Half the time they're innocuous, yet many on here take umbrage at them (I guess because he's American he has no business posting here, or posting about his team here). The other half he's dishing as much as he's getting...
-
if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5. What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.
I'm sure he'd do much better than state what he did if he gave it half as much thought as you just did. I think it's relatively easy to derive the inference I did (it's my inference...for all I know I'm way off base as to what he meant), and I know all too well how a simple throw 'way comment can spawn over-analysis ad nauseaum.
At any rate, I'm sure Zeppo can come back and clarify his comments if he so chooses.
-
Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.
True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.
Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.
Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN
Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.
De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.
-
Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.
True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?
I think this view is short-sighted. It's obvious that they won't have a direct impact on whether we qualify for South Africa. There are lessons to be learned from the experiences of many football nations - the vast majority of whom we do not play in WC qualifiers. Further, insistence on rejecting wisdom outside of CONCACAF leaves us where?
-
Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.
True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?
I think this view is short-sighted. It's obvious that they won't have a direct impact on whether we qualify for South Africa. There are lessons to be learned from the experiences of many football nations - the vast majority of whom we do not play in WC qualifiers. Further, insistence on rejecting wisdom outside of CONCACAF leaves us where?
true but just the thread title "venezuela could leave us in the dust" implies that we are in some kinda direct competition or rivalry with venezuela..
it would be more understandable if the approach was, "we could learn from venezuela's development" or something along those lines, because we dont really have anything to compare with them..
we really dont need to take heed of them solely for the fact that they are located within swimming distance... their population size, administration, politics, confederation, footballing history/pedigree and the fact that football is not their major sport leaves few parallels for us to ponder..
-
Good Evening Guys.
It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.
Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.
The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...
The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.
The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.
****
I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.
-
Good Evening Guys.
It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.
Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.
The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...
The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.
The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.
****
I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.
Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not. From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of. At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah). To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.
Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN
Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.
De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.
Slates you serious?? I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.
-
Slates you serious?? I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.
Wat?
-
Something else that needs mentioning here:
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.
Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN
Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.
De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.
Slates you serious?? I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
-
Good Evening Guys.
It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.
Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.
The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...
The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.
The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.
****
I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.
Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not. From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of. At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah). To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.
Bakes, yuh cooking wid gas!!! I was gehhin de impression that the gathering was waiting on a Belizean or Nicaraguan football ascendancy before grasping the fullness.
-
Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.
De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.
Slates you serious?? I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.
:o
who risk what?
eh?
oh oh
;)
-
but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..
one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..
none of these are true about venezuela..
-
if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5. What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.
I'm sure he'd do much better than state what he did if he gave it half as much thought as you just did. I think it's relatively easy to derive the inference I did (it's my inference...for all I know I'm way off base as to what he meant), and I know all too well how a simple throw 'way comment can spawn over-analysis ad nauseaum.
At any rate, I'm sure Zeppo can come back and clarify his comments if he so chooses.
Bakes..it really doesn't matter. I really didn't give it that much thought until you decided to defend his comment, which is surprising if you believe it was just a throw away comment. U took my 'question' far to literally - I fully knew what he could be possibly inferring. The difference is I figured there were a few of likely inferences all of which I see as either off the mark or irrelevant. I was interested in seeing whether Zeppo would respond and clarify the point he was trying to make or if, as i suspect, he was just taking a tongue in cheek dig. But the truth is, I never expected to revisit the post.
-
Slates you serious?? I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.
Wat?
Inside joke wid Slates....doh study it.
-
Bakes..it really doesn't matter. I really didn't give it that much thought until you decided to defend his comment, which is surprising if you believe it was just a throw away comment. U took my 'question' far to literally - I fully knew what he could be possibly inferring. The difference is I figured there were a few of likely inferences all of which I see as either off the mark or irrelevant. I was interested in seeing whether Zeppo would respond and clarify the point he was trying to make or if, as i suspect, he was just taking a tongue in cheek dig. But the truth is, I never expected to revisit the post.
You said you didn't see the relevance of the post...
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
I was showing where the relevance may have laid. You say I was defending his post. Okay.
-
but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..
one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..
none of these are true about venezuela..
How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?
-
but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..
one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..
none of these are true about venezuela..
How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?
yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...
1 GK Renny Vega 4 July 1979 20 0 Flag of Turkey Bursaspor
2 DF Luis Vallenilla 13 March 1974 70 1 Flag of Cyprus Nea Salamis
3 DF José Manuel Rey 20 May 1975 81 6 Flag of Cyprus AEK Larnaca
6 DF Alejandro Cichero 24 April 1977 40 1 Flag of Bulgaria PFC Litex
7 FW José Torrealba 13 June 1980 12 3 Flag of Germany Arminia Bielefeld
11 MF Ricardo David Páez 9 February 1979 54 6 Flag of Greece Veria FC
15 FW Fernando de Ornelas 29 July 1976 22 5 Flag of Norway Odd Grenland B.K.
16 MF Edder Pérez 3 July 1983 Flag of Portugal Maritimo
18 FW Juan Arango 16 May 1980 58 23 Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
20 DF Héctor González 4 November 1977 45 4 Flag of Cyprus AEK Larnaca
21 DF Andrés Rouga 2 March 1982 16 0 Flag of Cyprus Alki Larnaca
what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?
-
but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..
one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..
none of these are true about venezuela..
How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?
yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...
18 FW Juan Arango 16 May 1980 58 23 Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?
So there is one unknown player playing in one of Europe's top league...now compare that to players from "Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia" and see how many you find. Maybe then you'll understand why comparing Venezuelan football from football from these countries...perennial contenders in their own Conferences, falls apart.
-
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
Good question.
I was initially wondering the same thing since Venezuela, being a CONMEBOL nation, is not in direct competition with T&T. The only scenario in which they could be would be if the two countries faced off in the playoffs for a 2010 World Cup spot.
The CONCACAF up and comers that you have to look out for are Honduras, Panama (another baseball country) and even Haiti.
-
but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..
one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..
What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??
I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..
none of these are true about venezuela..
How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?
yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...
18 FW Juan Arango 16 May 1980 58 23 Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?
So there is one unknown player playing in one of Europe's top league...now compare that to players from "Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia" and see how many you find. Maybe then you'll understand why comparing Venezuelan football from football from these countries...perennial contenders in their own Conferences, falls apart.
The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..
Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..
None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..
You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..
Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...
-
The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..
Really...and all those Senegalese players in Le Championnat before then (just to name one)...or does the French league not count?
Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..
None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..
You'd have to define "recent" times because they've all been contenders going back at least the last three Cups.
You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..
Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...
The rationale for comparing Venezuela has already been sufficiently laid out by both Asylumseeker and myself, if you don't get it then you'll never get it and we could just leave if off there.
-
The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..
Really...and all those Senegalese players in Le Championnat before then (just to name one)...or does the French league not count?
Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..
None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..
You'd have to define "recent" times because they've all been contenders going back at least the last three Cups.
You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..
Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...
The rationale for comparing Venezuela has already been sufficiently laid out by both Asylumseeker and myself, if you don't get it then you'll never get it and we could just leave if off there.
so where do we draw the line?
you cited juan arango at mallorca as the only player playing in a top european league, yet conveniently left out the players in the german, portuguese and turkish leagues.. but now you saying the french league counts ???
if you find those countries i call dont work we could pull some other examples.. i guess by your and asylumseeker's rationale it would be fair to say that uzbekistan and iraq leaving us in the dust too, because they making some significant strides in their football right? you do know they were minnows who started making waves in the football world in recent times..
you really not making any sense because on the one hand, you fighting a point about venezuela having little overseas player presence however trinidad is the direct opposite based on having one of the biggest overseas presences in the UK leagues.. This equals to no comparison with venezuela..
just to recap, here's what you said..
Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not. From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of. At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah). To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.
so because they are minnows who have had good recent results, one of you please explain how that means they are surpassing us?
This thread would have made sense if the title was "Haiti could leave us in the dust".
i don't know why asylumseeker and yourself cant come clean and admit that this comparison of venezuela to trinidad has much more to do with the fact that they are our close geographical neighbors, and little to do with anything remotely football related... and after the fact yuh realize it really have no basis for that comparison at all...
you're right.. i'll probably never get it..
-
so where do we draw the line?
you cited juan arango at mallorca as the only player playing in a top european league, yet conveniently left out the players in the german, portuguese and turkish leagues.. but now you saying the french league counts ???
There was nothing 'convenient' about the omission at all, but it's interesting to see the paucity of your analysis on display. If anything Arminia Bielefeld was the only other "top league" European club on your list. None of the others are in their respective First Divisions. If you can argue otherwise then bring it, I'll gladly make room for the two or three other players if you can find them.
if you find those countries i call dont work we could pull some other examples.. i guess by your and asylumseeker's rationale it would be fair to say that uzbekistan and iraq leaving us in the dust too, because they making some significant strides in their football right? you do know they were minnows who started making waves in the football world in recent times..
How many f**king international pro's do Uzbekistan and Iraq have? Anybody even making the claim other than your yourself apparently...that Uzbekis-facking-stan and Iraq having surpassed TnT football?? What facking waves are they making?? Iraq winning the Asian Cup is any kinda international wave?
you really not making any sense because on the one hand, you fighting a point about venezuela having little overseas player presence however trinidad is the direct opposite based on having one of the biggest overseas presences in the UK leagues.. This equals to no comparison with venezuela.. just to recap, here's what you said..
Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not. From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of. At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah). To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.
so because they are minnows who have had good recent results, one of you please explain how that means they are surpassing us?
Follow closely ...let me know if you need connect-a-dots:
Go back to my first post in this thread and you'll see that I said that I don't believe in the theory that Venezuela has surpassed us. However, IF that is the case, then that in fact would be a very sobering reality for TnT football. The very fact AND I MADE MENTION OF THIS...typing it big so that yuh can't miss it this time...the very fact that they HAVE NO PEDIGREE to speak of...including this lack of an international presence, little/no impact by their professionals on the international game (this is the point of getting you to look up their overseas pros...IMPACT), when you compare that the the international impact that TnT has had on football, not just with our overseas pros, but our international showing the past 35 yrs. This glaring juxtaposition...is what is alarming IF indeed Venezuela has surpassed us. I have little patience for people who want to petulantly and insipidly play stupid. The rationale has been laid before you, but you insist the comparison is faulty and so you decline to follow the obvious logic.
This thread would have made sense if the title was "Haiti could leave us in the dust".
i don't know why asylumseeker and yourself cant come clean and admit that this comparison of venezuela to trinidad has much more to do with the fact that they are our close geographical neighbors, and little to do with anything remotely football related... and after the fact yuh realize it really have no basis for that comparison at all...
you're right.. i'll probably never get it..
The fact that the comparison was in part based on Geography was already admitted to in Asylumseekers "neighbour factor" statement above. We are making the comparison because from a footballing standpoint Venezuela, though situated in South America (much like Guyana and Suriname), and though a part of CONMEBOL, is very much a 'regional' country. It is for this reason there has been such extensive ties between Venezuela and the Caribbean, compared to say Colombia and the Caribbean, which is essentially none. From a regional standpoint, Trinidad and Jamaica have been the traditional regional powers, Trinidad perhaps even moreso than Jamaica, France 98 notwithstanding. So for a 'regional' team like Venezuela to have surpassed us (if the opinions in favor of such a theory are to be believed) then it just goes to show either the pace at which Trinidad is dropping, or the severe lack of development of TnT ball.
I can't explain it in any simpler terms than that.
-
You said you didn't see the relevance of the post...
Nope..I think that saying that baseball being more popular than football is irrelevant. More importantly, it doesn't say anything about football in Venezuela and much less so T&T. I could say football is more popular than rugby in the England. What does that tell you about Rugby in England? Or baseball is more popular than baskeball in the US? yep..and still..I've got no further insight about basketball in the US
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
U see the part in bold. That is what I meant earlier by needing to elaborate. For there to be any relevance to me, u have to make that assumption. Thing is, that assumption is totally untrue. More people watch and play the sport in Venezuela than in T&T. The nation puts more resources into developing the game at all levels. Now, football may be more popular in T&T than Venezuela in terms of % of the population who say it is their favorite sport...but again that is irrelevant given the sheer size of venezuela rel. to T&T. In absolute terms, the sport is more popular in Venezuela. More poeple watch, play and support the game. And that matters more than rlative popularity (just as is the case in the US). That is why I say a blanket statement about popularity relative to baseball is irrelevant. It says nothing unless you make the assumption you're making, which happens to be wrong.
The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.
hey..we in 2 different corners on this one and we've been here before. always interested in your point of view. peace bredda.
:beermug: :beermug:
-
I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing the development of football in Venezuela to T&T. Why the hell not? It's a simple discussion. Even if you think we'll never play Venezuela..ever..they may serve as a barometer of how other teams around the world and indeed in our region are developing. In any case, we could meet them in a Wc play-off. Possible. besides, we've had discusisons about football in Brazil compared to T&T, why not Venezuela
A few thoughts on what has been discussed...
The number of European based pros isn't always a barometer of success given the strength of Mexico and Costa Rica in our federation. Venezuela can play top class football without needing to have star names littered throughout Europe
All things being equal..venezuela is supposed to improve more rapidly than T&T. Their best club teams get to play in Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana against the best teams in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico..etc. And they're guaranteed a few first round games..Unlike our teams that might get a home and away against a Costa Rican, MLS or Mexican team if they reach far enough.
Venezuela is guaranteed to play teams like Brazil and Argentina twice during WC qualifiers. And could bounce them up in the Copa America too. So every 2 to 4 years the Venezuelan national team guaranteed to meet teams like Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Ecuador..multiple times (at least twice each). And I talking about competitive full out games. Compare that to who T&T plays regulalrly.
To me..that level of competition is invaluable. It does not pay off overnight, but over the decades, it is telling. Imagine T&T knowing we will def. play Brazil a good 2, 3, maybe 4 times every few years. Argentina..Uruguay..the same etc
It should really make a huge difference...all things being equal
-
Zeppo really move like the american government in this thread for real
sadis drop ah COINTELPRO style statement ....ride out quietly and now look what happen
Ah nominatin Zeppo as No. 2 on de Imps list
-
Zeppo really move like the american government in this thread for real
sadis drop ah COINTELPRO style statement ....ride out quietly and now look what happen
Ah nominatin Zeppo as No. 2 on de Imps list
ent!
That is the equivalent of financing civil unrest in a hostile country to kep their politicians and their army occupied while you build up your forces
-
Ah kinda surprised by the level of insularity or parochialism ah vibesing on de thread. Maybe is jes ignorance. Regardless of CONMEBOL or CONCACAF ... what's the next thing man can expect to hear ... Why bother playing friendlies outside of our region?
Then this geographical thing seems to be an immense obstacle ... Jamaica is a longer flight away than VEN and maybe more Trinis have been to Ven than have been to Yard, but dahs not de point ... most sensible observers try to learn from and observe their environment. What's wrong with that?
I happen to bring up VEN b/c of reasons outlined above, but beyond that - in the interest of fuller disclosure - which I didn't think I needed to say ... I have a lot of experience on the ground there and elsewhere on the continent. Some in ball, some not. I chose VEN based on all I have said. I didn't pick leh we say ... Bolivia or Ecuador ... b/c I didn't find them pertinent to the matter as I saw it ... anyway ...
Filho wrote:
I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing the development of football in Venezuela to T&T. Why the hell not? It's a simple discussion. Even if you think we'll never play Venezuela..ever..they may serve as a barometer of how other teams around the world and indeed in our region are developing. In any case, we could meet them in a Wc play-off. Possible. besides, we've had discusisons about football in Brazil compared to T&T, why not Venezuela
Obviously, ah like how yuh talk dey
A few thoughts on what has been discussed...
The number of European based pros isn't always a barometer of success given the strength of Mexico and Costa Rica in our federation. Venezuela can play top class football without needing to have star names littered throughout Europe
All things being equal..venezuela is supposed to improve more rapidly than T&T. Their best club teams get to play in Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana against the best teams in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico..etc. And they're guaranteed a few first round games..Unlike our teams that might get a home and away against a Costa Rican, MLS or Mexican team if they reach far enough.
yes, and dey U-15s will be at it from this Thursday in Brazil learning the ropes. they are guaranteed to be beter than the previous generation ... ah like how yuh talk dey
Venezuela is guaranteed to play teams like Brazil and Argentina twice during WC qualifiers. And could bounce them up in the Copa America too. So every 2 to 4 years the Venezuelan national team guaranteed to meet teams like Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Ecuador..multiple times (at least twice each). And I talking about competitive full out games. Compare that to who T&T plays regulalrly.
To me..that level of competition is invaluable. It does not pay off overnight, but over the decades, it is telling. Imagine T&T knowing we will def. play Brazil a good 2, 3, maybe 4 times every few years. Argentina..Uruguay..the same etc
It should really make a huge difference...all things being equal
good points filho
-
That list of Venezuelan players abroad is not exhaustive ... it is after all Wikipedia ... ah don't have time now, but our Ven counterparts forum has a link to it ...
-
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
U see the part in bold. That is what I meant earlier by needing to elaborate. For there to be any relevance to me, u have to make that assumption. Thing is, that assumption is totally untrue. More people watch and play the sport in Venezuela than in T&T. The nation puts more resources into developing the game at all levels. Now, football may be more popular in T&T than Venezuela in terms of % of the population who say it is their favorite sport...but again that is irrelevant given the sheer size of venezuela rel. to T&T. In absolute terms, the sport is more popular in Venezuela. More poeple watch, play and support the game. And that matters more than rlative popularity (just as is the case in the US). That is why I say a blanket statement about popularity relative to baseball is irrelevant. It says nothing unless you make the assumption you're making, which happens to be wrong.
hey..we in 2 different corners on this one and we've been here before. always interested in your point of view. peace bredda.
:beermug: :beermug:
Granted I wasn't making some official statistical analysis of the level of support for football in Venezuela and Trinidad...but I'm curious as to how you can unequivocably state that I'm wrong that they support football half as much as we do. It's been a while since I interacted with any Venezuelans so I have no anecdotal stories to share. It's also been a while since I read up on their sporting culture, but I always new their passion to be baseball then basketball...with football coming in a distant third.
Maybe more people do support football there than in TnT as you say...not surprising given the relative population disparity. If we're talking per capita support as in watching games, attending games and participation in the sport...I'd really be surprised if Trinis weren't twice as passionate about the sport than Venezuelans are.
-
That list of Venezuelan players abroad is not exhaustive ... it is after all Wikipedia ... ah don't have time now, but our Ven counterparts forum has a link to it ...
I wouldn't doubt it...I mentioned the euro-based players as an unofficial gauge as to the impact that Venezuelan football may or may not be having on the international game. Suffice to say that Trinidad's impact is/has been greater...and like I said, if Venezuela has indeed surpassed us, then we really need to stop and take stock.
-
If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?
U see the part in bold. That is what I meant earlier by needing to elaborate. For there to be any relevance to me, u have to make that assumption. Thing is, that assumption is totally untrue. More people watch and play the sport in Venezuela than in T&T. The nation puts more resources into developing the game at all levels. Now, football may be more popular in T&T than Venezuela in terms of % of the population who say it is their favorite sport...but again that is irrelevant given the sheer size of venezuela rel. to T&T. In absolute terms, the sport is more popular in Venezuela. More poeple watch, play and support the game. And that matters more than rlative popularity (just as is the case in the US). That is why I say a blanket statement about popularity relative to baseball is irrelevant. It says nothing unless you make the assumption you're making, which happens to be wrong.
hey..we in 2 different corners on this one and we've been here before. always interested in your point of view. peace bredda.
:beermug: :beermug:
Granted I wasn't making some official statistical analysis of the level of support for football in Venezuela and Trinidad...but I'm curious as to how you can unequivocably state that I'm wrong that they support football half as much as we do. It's been a while since I interacted with any Venezuelans so I have no anecdotal stories to share. It's also been a while since I read up on their sporting culture, but I always new their passion to be baseball then basketball...with football coming in a distant third.
Maybe more people do support football there than in TnT as you say...not surprising given the relative population disparity. If we're talking per capita support as in watching games, attending games and participation in the sport...I'd really be surprised if Trinis weren't twice as passionate about the sport than Venezuelans are.
Nah..I not no Venezuela expert. I've read a little about them and followed their development since WC 2002 qualifiers when they really started to make people notice, and especially cuz Brazil had to beat them in the final game to get guarantee qualification. Brazilians were actually worried, cuz Brazil wasn't playing that well..and Venezuela had posted a few upsets along the way. Oddly..my first thought was that Venezuela and all going to leave us behind. No lie. I read a bit leading up to the Copa America and was amazed at the fan support. There were terrible riots outside some stadia, due to a ticket scam and people couldn't get into games they had already paid for (altho' it coulda be passion for dey money..not passion for de football ;D ;D).
The sport is really taking off in Venezuela. In addition, Chavez has taken an interest in the sport and raised its profile among the masses (like any 'good' politician he grabbing onto what sems to have positive momentum in the country). That says a lot. Arango is also a national idol even for a sport that ranks well below baseball and basket ball. I also remember a fella called Giovanni Saverese who played for the NY.NJ Metrostars in the early years of the MLS..pure goalscorer from Venezuela. He talked about how Venezuela was improving and the sport was really professional now and he expected them to start challenging the bigger SA nations...this was over a decade ago.
De other ting boy Bakes..is dat trinis 'love' football, but in general we not passionate about it...at all. Dem stadiums empty unless is WC time and we playing big games and is 'A' team. Club football doh get no support. I telling you that the Venezuelans who support football might be a smaller percentage of the overall population, but in actual numbers they surpass T&T and like their more reknowned latin american brothers, dey bring a different level of passion to the game..at least to the stadia
-
I not no Venezuela expert. I've read a little about them and followed their development since WC 2002 qualifiers when they really started to make people notice, and especially cuz Brazil ahd to beat them in the final game to get through. Oddly enough Brazilians were worried, cuz Brazil wasn't playing that well..and venezuela ahd posteda few upsets along the way. Oddly..my first thought was that Venezuela and all going to leave us behind. No lie. I read a bit leading up to the Copa America and was amazed at the fan support. There were terrible riots outside some stadia, due to a ticket scam and people couldn't get into games they had already paid for.
Yeah...but were all them fans local fans? ;) Remember Venezuela was the host country, so you can't really use fan support during a regional/international tournament as a gauge of it's support domestically. If that was the case yuh'd swear the US was ah big footballing nation based on what was going on in 94.
The sport is really taking off in Venezuela. In addition, Chavez has taken an interest in the sport and raised its profile among the masses (like any 'good' politician he grabbing onto what sems to have positive momentum in the country). That says a lot. Arango is also a national idol even for a sport that ranks well below baseball and basket ball. I also remember a fella called Giovanni Saverese who played for the NY.NJ Metrostars in the early years of the MLS..pure goalscorer. he talked about how Venezuela was improving and the sport was really professional now and he expected them to start challenging the bigger SA nations...htis was over a decade ago.
I remember Savarese man...decent player. I ent ready to take his word for it juss cause he saying it...but I ent go dispute it neither.
De other ting boy Bakes..is dat trinis 'love' football, but in general we not passionate about it...at all. Dem stadiums empty unless is WC time and we playing big games and is 'A' team. Club football doh get no support. I telling you that the Venezuelans who support football might be a smaller percentage of the overall population, but in actual numbers they surpass T&T and like their more reknowned latin american brothers, dey bring a different level of passion to the game..at least to the stadia
lol...notice I ent hang mih hat on de "attending games" piece eh...dai'z why ah was sure tuh throw een de watching on TV and participating too. I know Trinis backwards when it comes tuh spending dey money on de Pro League.
-
its clear we'll have to agree to disagree on this one..
for me, venezuela being in our region has no bearing on anything in strictly footballing related terms.. based on the fact that they are an entirely different confederation, and we dont even have any hint of a footballing rivalry with us, their country could be south of argentina on the lower tip of south america for all i care..
but just a couple points...
There was nothing 'convenient' about the omission at all, but it's interesting to see the paucity of your analysis on display. If anything Arminia Bielefeld was the only other "top league" European club on your list. None of the others are in their respective First Divisions. If you can argue otherwise then bring it, I'll gladly make room for the two or three other players if you can find them.
correction.. arminia bielifield is german 1st division, bursaspor is turkish 1st division, maritimo is portuguese 1st division
if you find those countries i call dont work we could pull some other examples.. i guess by your and asylumseeker's rationale it would be fair to say that uzbekistan and iraq leaving us in the dust too, because they making some significant strides in their football right? you do know they were minnows who started making waves in the football world in recent times..
How many f**king international pro's do Uzbekistan and Iraq have? Anybody even making the claim other than your yourself apparently...that Uzbekis-facking-stan and Iraq having surpassed TnT football?? What facking waves are they making?? Iraq winning the Asian Cup is any kinda international wave?
winning the asian cup is akin to trinidad winning the gold cup or greece winning the euro championships.. on any scale iraq's asian cup title is a monumental achievement and made huge international waves.. if you followed the aftermath, you wouldve seen that their was heightened interest in their players by european clubs.. uzbekistan is also steadily progressing (ever hear bout a player name maksim shatskikh?), and were unlucky to miss out on playing us by virtue of a controversial loss to bahrain.. a play off with uzbek wouldve arguably been more difficult than bahrain.
for the record i dont believe either has come anywhere close to surpassing tt football, but neither do i think venezuela has, and thats why i brought them into the discussion..
you really not making any sense because on the one hand, you fighting a point about venezuela having little overseas player presence however trinidad is the direct opposite based on having one of the biggest overseas presences in the UK leagues.. This equals to no comparison with venezuela.. just to recap, here's what you said..
Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not. From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of. At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah). To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.
so because they are minnows who have had good recent results, one of you please explain how that means they are surpassing us?
Follow closely ...let me know if you need connect-a-dots:
Go back to my first post in this thread and you'll see that I said that I don't believe in the theory that Venezuela has surpassed us. However, IF that is the case, then that in fact would be a very sobering reality for TnT football. The very fact AND I MADE MENTION OF THIS...typing it big so that yuh can't miss it this time...the very fact that they HAVE NO PEDIGREE to speak of...including this lack of an international presence, little/no impact by their professionals on the international game (this is the point of getting you to look up their overseas pros...IMPACT), when you compare that the the international impact that TnT has had on football, not just with our overseas pros, but our international showing the past 35 yrs. This glaring juxtaposition...is what is alarming IF indeed Venezuela has surpassed us. I have little patience for people who want to petulantly and insipidly play stupid. The rationale has been laid before you, but you insist the comparison is faulty and so you decline to follow the obvious logic.
imo venezuela progress aint no sobering reality for us because they have never been our reality which is my central point.. for the same reason you want to compare TT with venezuela, but then we should also be able to compare TT with any other emerging no-pedigree side on the planet... furthermore, if yuh lack patience yuh doh bong to respond..
This thread would have made sense if the title was "Haiti could leave us in the dust".
i don't know why asylumseeker and yourself cant come clean and admit that this comparison of venezuela to trinidad has much more to do with the fact that they are our close geographical neighbors, and little to do with anything remotely football related... and after the fact yuh realize it really have no basis for that comparison at all...
you're right.. i'll probably never get it..
The fact that the comparison was in part based on Geography was already admitted to in Asylumseekers "neighbour factor" statement above. We are making the comparison because from a footballing standpoint Venezuela, though situated in South America (much like Guyana and Suriname), and though a part of CONMEBOL, is very much a 'regional' country. It is for this reason there has been such extensive ties between Venezuela and the Caribbean, compared to say Colombia and the Caribbean, which is essentially none. From a regional standpoint, Trinidad and Jamaica have been the traditional regional powers, Trinidad perhaps even moreso than Jamaica, France 98 notwithstanding. So for a 'regional' team like Venezuela to have surpassed us (if the opinions in favor of such a theory are to be believed) then it just goes to show either the pace at which Trinidad is dropping, or the severe lack of development of TnT ball.
I can't explain it in any simpler terms than that.
i wonder if by that logic, whether an african country like egypt baulks at the recent progress of Israeli football given that their neighbor Israel is in the UEFA confederation and Egypt is in AFC?? the fact is that the football map is drawn differently than what you see on an atlas, and unless Chavez throwing a passa passa football tournament for regional countries to curry favor political support, i ent see why they need to be of any concern to us..
these encapsulated replies getting way out of hand and too tedious to read so i ent have much more to say on this..
nothing wrong in drawing the comparisons, but i just find them to be irrelevant in the grand scope of things....
-
Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.
Not sure whther that's an appropriate gauge given that we're coming out of two different confederations.
Dat theory you have eh too strong because Mexico, Costa Rica and U.S.A. not really pushovers. Apart from Argentina and Brazil, de powers dat be in Concacaf could well hold their own against South American Opposition. Doh use Confederation as an excuse for not qualifying for de WC. If Bolivia could go, wha de hell wrong with Venezuela? Next thing yuh go say is Venezuela better Ghana, Senegal, South Korea etc. jes because dey in a so called tougher Federation. Whatever de geography, we achieved something that they could only dream about. De dust in Caracas right now. :shameonyou:
-
Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.
Not sure whther that's an appropriate gauge given that we're coming out of two different confederations.
Dat theory you have eh too strong because Mexico, Costa Rica and U.S.A. not really pushovers. Apart from Argentina and Brazil, de powers dat be in Concacaf could well hold their own against South American Opposition. Doh use Confederation as an excuse for not qualifying for de WC. If Bolivia could go, wha de hell wrong with Venezuela? Next thing yuh go say is Venezuela better Ghana, Senegal, South Korea etc. jes because dey in a so called tougher Federation. Whatever de geography, we achieved something that they could only dream about. De dust in Caracas right now. :shameonyou:
Here's a list of countries in CONMEBOL:
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
Uruguay
Paraguay
Colombia
Ecuador
Bolivia
Peru
Venezuela
Dahs ten countries.
Here's a list of CONMEBOL nations that have qualified for the WC:
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
Uruguay
Paraguay
Colombia
Ecuador
Bolivia
Peru
Notice how many missing and who is? Strangely, this fact was part and parcel of how this discussion started. They are making strides and have been investing the future in the game. Maybe they'll make it to a WC, maybe not ... even if they don't you mean to tell me that we cyah get some value from the meteoric shifts going on in Venezuela?
I challenge you to name another confederation that has practically every member that has qualified for a WC.
As far as yuh powers dat be in CONCACAF comment ... I believe that some of the CONMEBOL countries are within reach of some CONCACAF countries ... and I eh talking MEX, USA only ... I referred to second-tier South American countries elsewhere in this thread ... many of these nations have at least an equal dose of commess, bobol, bacchanal, whatever ... going on in dey runnings ... sometimes what keeps them afloat is a lengthier tradition and some finesse and sophistication about the game that makes for a marginal but effective difference ... cancel out this naivete among some CONCACAF countries and we could be in ting.
In any event, why would Ven need to make 2 Cups? Steups. ;D
-
1. Some claim they pass us long time. Frankly, I don't think the body of evidence is that compelling to arrive at that conclusion. Reasonable minds can agree to differ. The results? 3 ties ... I would discount the 1971 result ... for several reasons. I would frame it as we have our strengths and they had their deficiencies and well ... voila ... neutral outcomes ...
2. This isn't the first time I have advocated looking south on this forum ... for some reason on this occasion it resonated in greater form.
*********************************************************
Just found this from CONMEBOL's website via a gogle search ... notice when the exodus caught attention ...
Avalancha de futbolistas venezolanos a Europa y América
20 / 07 / 2004
Caracas, 19 jul (EFE).- La prensa deportiva de Venezuela confirmó este fin de semana la contratación de varios futbolistas de Venezuela en las diferentes ligas de Europa y América, lo que confirma el real avance del fútbol "vinotinto". Pese a su temprana eliminación en la Copa América de Perú, muchos jugadores de la selección de Venezuela fueron observados por diferentes clubes del mundo, que se interesaron en sus servicios.
[Despite their elimination from the Copa America several players caught the eye of clubs abroad ... article says this confirms the advance of Ven football ... Venz press confirmed the signing of these foreign contracts]
La contratación más importante es la del centrocampista Juan Arango por el Mallorca de Espańa, a petición expresa del técnico mallorquín Benito Floro, que dirigió al venezolano cuando fue técnico del Monterrey mexicano. Arango, de 24 ańos, es el máximo goleador de la selección de Venezuela en su historia, además de haber jugado desde el ańo 2000 en el fútbol mexicano con el Monterrey, el Pachuca y el Puebla.
[Juan Arango's with Mallorca is described as being the most significant contract ... how it happened: Mallorca's TD was Arango's mgr when Arango played for Monterrey ... Arango is dey Stern John ... some may disagree with the comparison :)] @ the time Arango was 24
Por su parte, el internacional centrocampista venezolano >Miguel Mea Vitali, jugará en el Ancona de Italia, tras llegar a un acuerdo con el club europeo por una temporada. Para "Miky" Vitali, de 22 ańos, será su tercera experiencia en Europa, tras jugar con el Lleida de Espańa y el Poggibonsi de la serie C de Italia, después de estar en la última temporada en su país con el actual campeón Caracas FC.
[Mea Vitali was off to Ancona in Italy ... @ the time of writing he was 22 .. Ancona was gonna be his 3rd European club contract]
En tanto, el centrocampista >Leonel Vielma, que jugó la pasada campańa con el Deportivo Táchira, donde fue figura en la Copa Libertadores, viajará hoy a Colombia para incorporarse al Deportivo Cali. Vielma de 25 ańos, llegará al conjunto "caleńo" a cubrir los problemas defensivos que arrastran hace varias temporadas.
[the highlighted yute ... @ de time 25 was off to Deportivo Cali ... he was bought to fill recurring problems in their defensive set-up ... midfielder]
Otras novedades son la del defensor >José Luis Vallenilla Pacheco, del Caracas FC ha sido contratado por el Olimpo de Bahía Blanca, equipo donde jugó el también centrocampista Héctor González hace apenas un ańo, confirmado por directivos del equipo venezolano.
[dude off to join another Venezuelan at highlighted club]
No todo queda así, ya que el centrocampista >Jorge "Zurdo" Rojas, este fin de semana llegó a un acuerdo para fichar con el Atlético Nacional de Medellín, a donde viajará este martes a Colombia tras arreglar su visa de trabajo. Rojas será el primer extranjero en jugar con el Atlético Nacional de Medellín después de 18 ańos de permanecer jugando con futbolistas colombianos.
[Rojas was gonna be the first foreign player contracted by Atletico Nacional in 18 years]
Otro que viajará a Europa es el centrocampista >Leopoldo Jiménez, que jugará en la primera división de Rusia con un contrato de tres ańos, aunque aún no dieron a conocer el nombre de ese equipo. Jiménez también estaba en los planes del campeón de la Copa Toyota Libertadores, el Once Caldas de Manizales.
[dude signs 3 year contract with unnamed Russian club ... was also sought by Once Caldas .... then Libertadores champs]
Hace dos meses, el centrocampista >Gabriel Urdaneta, que no participó en la Copa América, fue contratado por el subcampeón suizo Young Boys, equipo que participará en la fase previa de la Liga de Campeones de Europa.
[ dude signs with Swiss club Young Boys who were part of the Champions League campaign the previous cycle]
Tampoco quedan fuera el centrocampista Héctor "Turbo" González (ex Olimpo y Colón de Argentina), que ahora estará con el Quilmes argentino y el defensor Alejandro Cichero, figura del Nacional de Uruguay, que jugará la próxima temporada en el fútbol italiano.
[first player off to Quilmes; next player formerly of Nacional de Uruguay had secured an Italian contract]
La avalancha de futbolistas venezolanos para el fútbol extranjero podría aumentar en los próximos días, ya que el defensor Andrés Rouga (Caracas FC), de 21 ańos, está siendo tentado por la Universidad de San Martín de Perú, mientras el arquero Manuel Sanhouse y el defensor José Manuel Rey también están en la mira de clubes peruanos.
[The avalanche of foreign-bound VEN players could increase in coming days ... the 2 players mentioned were possibly off to Peru]
Just a snapshot of the scene. How excited were we in 2004 about this kind of thing? Their biggest player was jes then emerging out of the Mexican league. Ours were long established overseas.
-
Question? Why is the number of Venezuelan players playing abroad such a stressed point in this debate. Granted, I see the relevance given that Venezuela may not have the strongest domestic league in the world. But isi t that important? In South America I think Paraguay and Ecuador show that you don't have to have many European based players to do well. They've both qualified for a few WCs in a row and now they are 'exporting' more and more players to Europe but not too many in top flight European leagues.
In Concacaf, I'd say Costa Rica is the prime example of great development under local conditions. I'd say Mexico too, but the quality of their domestic league puts them in another bracket. Maybe Honduras. Their problems with qualifying have little to do with talent and the quality of play (Suazo being their one bonafide European star that I can think of).
-
Question? Why is the number of Venezuelan players playing abroad such a stressed point in this debate. Granted, I see the relevance given that Venezuela may not have the strongest domestic league in the world. But isi t that important?
How else are players supposed to develop...by playing fete matches? Doh answer that.
Obviously if Venezuela lacks a quality domestic league, then it would benefit their better players to play in quality leagues elsewhere, no? It doh have to be Europe...but the European leagues just happen to be better in teh eyes of many.
-
I challenge you to name another confederation that has practically every member that has qualified for a WC.
Specious argument at best. I challenge you to name another confederation that has so few members and which gets to send half of them on average to the world cup.
There are a lot of arguments to support your point. This is not one of them.
-
Damn MK ... thought ah could slip that in ...
-
Question? Why is the number of Venezuelan players playing abroad such a stressed point in this debate. Granted, I see the relevance given that Venezuela may not have the strongest domestic league in the world. But isi t that important? In South America I think Paraguay and Ecuador show that you don't have to have many European based players to do well. They've both qualified for a few WCs in a row and now they are 'exporting' more and more players to Europe but not too many in top flight European leagues.
In Concacaf, I'd say Costa Rica is the prime example of great development under local conditions. I'd say Mexico too, but the quality of their domestic league puts them in another bracket. Maybe Honduras. Their problems with qualifying have little to do with talent and the quality of play (Suazo being their one bonafide European star that I can think of).
Filho I think they have two Suazos in foreign Leagues. One at Inter the other in the German League Koln I believe. But the majority are domestic
-
Damn MK ... thought ah could slip that in ...
nah, doh study it. Most people here understand where you coming from, even if they doh agree with it. Its just that the choice of Venezuela out of the blue like that perturbing the argument.
Whatever the validity of using them as a blueprint may be, it will always come of like apples and oranges.
-
Question? Why is the number of Venezuelan players playing abroad such a stressed point in this debate. Granted, I see the relevance given that Venezuela may not have the strongest domestic league in the world. But isi t that important?
How else are players supposed to develop...by playing fete matches? Doh answer that.
Obviously if Venezuela lacks a quality domestic league, then it would benefit their better players to play in quality leagues elsewhere, no? It doh have to be Europe...but the European leagues just happen to be better in teh eyes of many.
I agree with that. I said I understand the relevance, but I think we need to have a better understanding of the quality of the venezuelan domestic league and the rate of development to argue how important that point is. We also have to keep in mind that we are discussing Venezuela vs T&T, not Venezuela vs Argentina. Given the steady improvement of their top teams in the Copa Libertadores, we can deduce that their top club teams are better than ours. regarding foreign based....to discuss whether or not they are doing enough to surpass us should not require the need to have a substantial number of players plying their trade in the top leagues in Europe. Venezuela has players in Argentina, Colombia, Spain, Turkey, Germany, Portugal and Greece for example. Good levels of football and lots of diversity (the latter we lack in our foreign based players). Eventually Venezuela is going to need more players playing a high level of club football to really compete with the Brazils and Argentinas of the world by developing a top league domestically and/ or exporting more players to Europe. But to surpass us, I don't know if we need to emphasize the foreign based exports to such an extent...and to be honest..I think by having players at a high level in many parts of Europea and South America...they sem to have a better formula for exporting talent than we do at the moment.
-
Question:
Lets say Venezuela make the next world cup and we don't. Would anyone's sentiment be:
"Waay boy look venezuela make world cup and we ent even make it. Therefore we in a real bad state yes!"
?
-
You will go to yuh grave waiting for Venezuela to make a World Cup. Like you doh have any worthwhile endeavours in yuh life? Who de hell looking at de history of both Confederations now? You have just expanded the time window for this topic and blown it into galactic proportions. Since yuh doing dat, yuh well know we shoulda make 2 WC already and miss one by a goal and a point. So where does dat put Venezuela...probably in de World Series where dey belong. Is not like de phone ringing off de hook for Venezuela to get a set of International Friendlies. Football skettle doh earn dem kinda stripes. Dey go be eating Arepas and Pastelles and watching de next WC on tv. Geography is no excuse. If yuh have a beef with dat, talk to God. :rotfl:
-
You will go to yuh grave waiting for Venezuela to make a World Cup. Like you doh have any worthwhile endeavours in yuh life? Who de hell looking at de history of both Confederations now? You have just expanded the time window for this topic and blown it into galactic proportions. Since yuh doing dat, yuh well know we shoulda make 2 WC already and miss one by a goal and a point. So where does dat put Venezuela...probably in de World Series where dey belong. Is not like de phone ringing off de hook for Venezuela to get a set of International Friendlies. Football skettle doh earn dem kinda stripes. Dey go be eating Arepas and Pastelles and watching de next WC on tv. Geography is no excuse. If yuh have a beef with dat, talk to God. :rotfl:
:rotfl: :rotfl: As dem Jamaican an' dem would say: "Yuh nah aard'nary"
Fellas, we spinnin we top in mud here. While it augers well for our national pride and all to compare wins and losses and overseas players and fan passion against our "regional" neighbours, yada, yada, yada, (we could siddong and do dat 'til de sun turn green!) it really does nothing for what our actual state of affairs is in T&T football. When you look at the ten-team lineup for CONMEBOL qualifiers, Venezuela, for all of their improvements, are not likely to be the fifth-placed team "we" would be facing should "we" be the unfortunate country to come in in fourth place in CONCACAF, bearing in mind that football is played on grass and artificial turf, not on paper. The mere fact that some of us are even projecjing or aspiring for no more than a fourth-placed finish within our own confederation speaks volumes of our approach to the whole qualifying process and maybe even addresses our approach to the overall development of our game. I am willing to bet that under our current "leadership" within our football ass ociation, the thinking may be no different. I would like to think that Venezuela, on the other hand, whoever is responsible for designing their newfound approach to football development, is putting a gameplan in place for them to be the TOP team in CONMEBOL, not the fifth placed team, Brazil and Argentina and Columbia be damned! For all the years of lightning-rod accessibility that we have had to both Enlish and (dare I say) American football, we have still yet to acquire from either of them, the necessary tools to put together our own developmental program for our administration, our coaches and our players, young and old. What we need are people that understand what higher of all aspects of football are needed, can exemplify those standards, and hence, demand them of our administration, coaches and players. LP "seems" to be trying to infuse that "higher standard" and with the help of men like Shaka, Clint Marcelle, (hopefully) Dwight and Latas (and any other men, past and present that I fail to mention who may fall into that "category") and we will shall see the comparitive turnaround in our program and receive the rightful recognition for being one of the perennial TOP THREE in CONCACAF WC qualifiers then we would not be having these debates about comparing ourselves to Venezuela. jackula just needs to divert a wee percentage of ttff money that he spends on himself, his sons and his cronies towards the appropriate areas of football development in T&T and we will have taken our debates to a whole 'nother level.
-
I don't much traffic in sensationalism and hyperbole - although they serve some posters well, neither works in my favor when delivered by me. Reviewing this thread, it seems some contributors more readily extracted sensationalism and literalism rather than the overarching message that ultimately concerned what questions should be asked of our model for progress and development as a nation that regards itself as a nation of (in this case) ballers. For me, this isn't merely philosophical inquiry ... it's actually part of a matrix of considerations that I face everyday in my goings-out and my comings-in.
I re-read this thread from top to bottom and found that my visceral reaction to each post anticipated the actual response that followed ... even after 4 years.
My position remains the same ... and well ... has been reinforced by subsequent events. (Indeed, there's a 2011 semi-final Copa America berth to speak of and unprecedented defeats of Argentina and Brazil to refer to in the last 4 years ... but more than that there's been social transformation due to the change in individual circumstances of many players).
All that aside .... I grant that Dinho's view that "we could learn from Venezuela's development" might better have captured an element of the sentiment intended.
All that aside ... Chow's comment above really encapsulates a key ingredient of the discussion:
I would like to think that Venezuela, on the other hand, whoever is responsible for designing their newfound approach to football development, is putting a gameplan in place for them to be the TOP team in CONMEBOL, not the fifth placed team, Brazil and Argentina and Columbia be damned! For all the years of lightning-rod accessibility that we have had to both Enlish and (dare I say) American football, we have still yet to acquire from either of them, the necessary tools to put together our own developmental program for our administration, our coaches and our players, young and old. What we need are people that understand what higher of all aspects of football are needed, can exemplify those standards, and hence, demand them of our administration, coaches and players.
If it takes Venezuelan qualification for a WC to highlight effective transformation of a landscape (as per Savannah Boy), I'll take that ... but I would have thought that we of all people might have understood that WC qualification was not an end-all and be-all in the annals of concretizing football development.
Who knows? Perhaps in the years down the road ... 2006 might well prove to be our summit. It took Honduras 28 years to replicate a WC participation. Ask them whether they did anything differently or better in the intervening years ... or whether they systematized their approach to the game. One might find that there wasn't a revolutionary approach in place.
I get that some of the opposing comments were rendered in 2007 when we resided in the optimism of a possible successive WC qualification ... perhaps now that WC 2010 passed us by ... and that we're faced with the reality and burdens of 2014 WC qualification, we'll see that transformation of a nation's footballing fortunes is an expression of a totality of variables that has less to do with the boundaries of the federation you're associated with ... but more to do with the application of a collectivized vision.
Pfister's tirade against some of the practices that are counter to our footballing interests should end any question as to geographical boundaries providing guidance to a way forward.
As for Venezuela, in the intervening years, an indigenization of the game has led to success in spite of CONMEBOL rather than because of CONMEBOL. CONMEBOL didn't take Venezuela seriously until Venezuela started to take itself seriously!
-
And as for questions regarding why the cross-federation comparison and other "reasonings" along that line .... here's a similar sort of inquiry raised by someone all the way from India (a nation we frequently dissect in a footballing context despite their distance) .... asking similar questions as they consider their footballing future. Go figure.
Obviously, this article also assists in underlining some of the points made above.
Venezuela’s soccer saga: From behind India to Latino powerhouse
Kolkata, Sep 1 (IANS) Venezuela, which 12 years ago lagged even below India in the FIFA rankings, has risen like the proverbial phoenix to become a major South American footballing nation.
The Venezuela soccer team, which was 110th in the 1999 FIFA rankings – four rungs below India – has vastly improved and now boasts an impressive 44th position in the current official listings.
The rise of the ‘La Vinotinto’ or ‘The Burgundy’ as the team is fondly called because of its jersey colour, is largely attributed to the massive infrastructural investment the country made to host the Copa America in 2007.
The country started climbing the ladder under then coach Richard Paez while incumbent Cesar Farias has carried the process further.
After a miserable 1998 World Cup qualifiers, Paez took over as the team’s new head coach halfway through the 2002 World Cup qualifying campaign. Venezuela was then languishing at the bottom of the table.
Under his guidance, the side performed better in the latter stages of the qualifiers and for the first time, managed to avoid picking up the continent’s wooden spoon.
Under Paez’s stewardship talents like Giancarlo Maldonado, free-kick specialist Jose Manuel Rey and Venezuelan football’s Golden Boy, Juan Arango flourished and with the team acquiring a new outlook. He once said: ‘In the old days, we knew we were going to lose and the target was to avoid a thrashing. Now we try to play with balance, to attack as well as defend.’
Venezuela, in spite of being in South America where football is the king, has had its affection more towards baseball and beauty queens. But with the improving performance of the team, the scenario is gradually changing.
The Venezuelan economy is dominated by the petroleum sector, which accounts for roughly a third of the GDP, around 80 percent of exports and more than half of government revenues. With some of the largest oil and natural gas reserves in the world, it consistently ranks among the top 10 crude oil producers in the world.
Venezuela, among the most urbanised countries in Latin America, had never made it past the first round of the Copa America from 1975 to 2004 but surprised soccer pundits by bagging a quarter final berth in the 2007 edition, followed by a fourth place finish in 2010.
In a stark contrast to their Venezuelan counterparts, the Indian football team, which mustered a lowly 106 in 1999, plummeted to 158 in the August FIFA rankings.
India’s continued dismal performance at the football arena is mostly attributed to poor infrastructure and lack of appeal for the game.
Venezuela which also was plagued with similar problems however, seem to have overcome these hurdles to become a vastly improving team.
The nation’s current good performance is credited to chief coach Farias, who closely worked with the under-20 team to pool a young side mixed with experience and bursting with talent.
Exuding confidence before the FIFA friendly against Argentina to be played at the city’s Salt Lake Stadium Farias said: ‘We were traditionally known as the Cinderella team in South America. But now the scenario has changed. Our soccer is growing at a good pace. Football is a team game; we have been working to be a cohesive unit.’
Buoyed by the team’s success in the Copa America, Farias is hopeful of booking the ever elusive World Cup finals berth. ‘Results of the Copa shows the teams are very close. We hope to be in the next World Cup final stage.’
http://indiacurrentaffairs.org/venezuelas-soccer-saga-from-behind-india-to-latino-powerhouse/
-
See also ...
http://www.worldsoccer.com/blogs/venezuelan-football-a-brief-history
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/25/soccer-latam-venezuela-idUKLDE76N0B720110725
These are all commentators writing in 2011 ... rather than 2007 ... alright, ah done!!! :)
-
Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.
Same for the US and dey does give we bullpistle and manners we bad bad bad. Venezuela done gone clear of we long time now. De amount of Colombians living over dey go only feed their pool even more.
-
I don't know when Ven. was ever behind or on par with TT. We hardly ever play them even though we so close to them. As I have said before, even though baseball is their number sport, that does not make them irelevant in football. The Venezuelans have had a proleague for over 50 yrs. Mathew Nuness, Alan Joseph and some other played in Ven. in the early 50's. Until TTFF( >:() )organize to play goodwill games on home and away basis, then we will know if we in front, on par or behind. Right now I feel they may be better. They have improved tremendously. I really eh worried about Ven. I concern about their neighbour, Guy.
-
Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.
Would you prefere we had to qualify out of South America???
-
Didn't they beat Argentina Tuesday?
-
Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.
Which is why I see the relevance of his statement...at least I find it no less relevant than a good number of other responses in this and other threads. Given the apparent consensus in this thread that Venezuela has surpassed TnT in footballing, an examination as to where exactly (specifically, but also in the grander scheme of things) Venezuelan football is, helps clarify the situation in TnT. An analogy that I'm sure will confuse many, but I'll offer it all the same:
Party A: Iraq today is much closer to the mythical Eden than Trinidad and Tobago.
Party B: ...and imagine that today in Iraq the life of an American dog is worth more than the life of the average Iraqi citizen.
...I'd be surprised if you can't see that Party B's response is also a commentary on the state of things in Trinidad.
Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly. That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more
The true apples and oranges comparison may be your comparison of football in Venezuela to football in the US. Given that they are both marginal sports in terms of popularity...football's status is more easily understood here in the US than the marginalization of the sport in a country where you'd think it would naturally take root. Venezuela is surrounded by neighbors who are passionate about one thing and one thing only...football. Looking at these neighbors Venezuela is indistinct from them in terms of culture, history, ethnicity etc. The US is also surrounded by two countries that are passionate for football...although Canadians prefer to play it on ice with men on skates...if you get my drift. Venezuela has no excuse as to why football is so marginalized. Certainly they receive even less support than the sport does here in the US, for at least there's a thriving professional leagues, with a multi-year revenue now coming in from Television contracts. Big name foreign players see football in the US as a product that they'd very much like to be a part of. Not so with Venezuela. You can't even justify the comparison given the strides that American football has made. Understandable why the US has surpassed TnT...resources, that's it in a nutshell. Resources that can be invested in player and program development etc.
If Venezuela has indeed surpassed TnT, what excuse do we have for that? I'll leave it to Zeppo to elaborate more on his statement, but from the inference I derived, it's actually a brief, but pretty poignant analysis of the dire straits in which we find our Trini selves.
Man, you sure can buzzkill any conversation. You must be real popular
-
Didn't they beat Argentina Tuesday?
Yes and Argentina had dey stars too...And man taking offense to us losing to Bermuda
-
We might have beaten Venezuela in the 60s when the only sport they played was baseball but the minute they latched on to the game of football we couldn't beat them.I know they are on the South American Continent but how far are we away...7 bloody miles,maybe our people not serious enough in achieving the very best.
-
We might have beaten Venezuela in the 60s when the only sport they played was baseball but the minute they latched on to the game of football we couldn't beat them.I know they are on the South American Continent but how far are we away...7 bloody miles,maybe our people not serious enough in achieving the very best.
Your proximity to Venezuela is as relevant(irrelevant in this case) as the Bahamas proximity to the United states, Or Guyana's proximity to Brazil (they share a common border) and the rest of the south american continent. Football has much more to do with culture than anything else. Venezuelans naturally have football in their blood as does all other south american countries. To be honest with you, west indians traditionally lean more towards cricket due to the West Indoes cricket team...football has caught on in the caribbean, but its nowhere near as supported in the region as it is in the average south american country (venezuela included)
-
We might have beaten Venezuela in the 60s when the only sport they played was baseball but the minute they latched on to the game of football we couldn't beat them.I know they are on the South American Continent but how far are we away...7 bloody miles,maybe our people not serious enough in achieving the very best.
We hardly ever played Ven. When Ven sent a team to TT for a goodwill tour in the 71 or 72, it was lower league and college students. They were not expecting TT football to be that competitve. We did not have a pro-league, and the pros were all overseas. Well they got a pretty good shell-lacking from the TT team. They play 3 games and lost by some heavy margins. There was even a fight in one of the games. They invited TT for return games. They then used their pros and beat TT 3-1 and 2-0(check me on the scores). Ven. has had decent teams it just were not good enough to match the other teams in their federation. Plz don't get over your head with Ven. At this moment their team can probly beat us good and proper.
What you, I, we must ask, is why TTFF never saw it in their wisdom to have annual or bi-annual goodwill games with Ven. in the past. We are neighbour, 7 miles apart, we have had no serious issues except the fishing problems. We have blood relations with our neighbor. We have historical and cultural ties with them. Playing them on a yearly basis, one year at home and one year away should be easy, you would think. The trophy for the game can be a cuatro or a pirogue.
-
I don't know when Ven. was ever behind or on par with TT. We hardly ever play them even though we so close to them. As I have said before, even though baseball is their number sport, that does not make them irelevant in football. The Venezuelans have had a proleague for over 50 yrs. Mathew Nuness, Alan Joseph and some other played in Ven. in the early 50's. Until TTFF( >:() )organize to play goodwill games on home and away basis, then we will know if we in front, on par or behind. Right now I feel they may be better. They have improved tremendously. I really eh worried about Ven. I concern about their neighbour, Guy.
We hardly ever played Ven. When Ven sent a team to TT for a goodwill tour in the 71 or 72, it was lower league and college students. They were not expecting TT football to be that competitve. We did not have a pro-league, and the pros were all overseas. Well they got a pretty good shell-lacking from the TT team. They play 3 games and lost by some heavy margins. There was even a fight in one of the games. They invited TT for return games. They then used their pros and beat TT 3-1 and 2-0(check me on the scores). Ven. has had decent teams it just were not good enough to match the other teams in their federation. Plz don't get over your head with Ven. At this moment their team can probly beat us good and proper.
...
Although football in Venezuela formally transitioned from amateurism to professionalism in 1957, it would be misleading to characterize the game as a consolidated professional game. There were many challenges and the game in several respects would likely be better characterized as what we would refer to as semi-professional today ... and even that is a negotiable statement.
I would add that the center of this "professional" game resided in expatriate communities such as the Portuguese, the Italians and the Spanish (Basques, Catalans, Galicians etc. segregated their representation and financing of the game along community lines). These were the teams that were dominant. They were not comprised primarily of local players. Local or criollo teams struggled during this period. They didn't have the bank and they didn't have the players.
Based on their connection with their home communities in Spain, expat financiers were at times able to arrange games with clubs from Spain ... and from neighboring countries like Argentina ... but again we should not idealize or interpret this to mean that soccer in Venezuela had achieved mythical proportion. What can be said fairly is that a platform for progressing the game was established based on the European origin of the immigrants. However, it took a significant period for the game to spread and grow across the country beyond the bastions tied to these communities. For almost the first 10 years, the league was all Caracas.
Another factor disruptive of the game's development - despite the artifice of a professional league - was several manifestations of mismanagement at the club level. These are well-documented in Venezuelan football. And, some community teams, while featuring similarly competent players, did not enter the professional set-up for some time (in some cases the denominator would be years/decades). In the midst of all of this, FIFA sanctioned the federation due to internal problems rooted in a power struggle (1973).
Another barometer would be club infrastructure ... youth teams, ownership of stadium and facilities etc. Caracas FC (viewed as well-organized, celebrated its 22 year of re-organization last week ... but even with that ... that occurred due to the 11th hour intervention of a sports fan who feared that the club's financial problems would leave Caracas without representation in the pro league (merely 5 years after it went pro ... a teething problem not unlike our experience with the pro League). And their actual home facility seats less than 4,000.
On this thread, some have magnified the historical credentials of Venezuelan football. The better view is to regard the period from the late 90s onwards as the beginning of viability in Venezuela.
Prior to that they routinely had many problems ... just like us ... teams withdrawing during the season and other ailments (bankruptcy, relocation of teams that affected logistics etc.).
I don't discount history ... but it is not the conquests of old that account for where they are today. It is their odyssey of growing pains in domestic football (not unlike us). It is the administrative reform of the game (league, national teams) in contemporary times that has sparked the revolution. And dais my point.
They never have been light years ahead of us.
-
We might have beaten Venezuela in the 60s when the only sport they played was baseball but the minute they latched on to the game of football we couldn't beat them.I know they are on the South American Continent but how far are we away...7 bloody miles,maybe our people not serious enough in achieving the very best.
We hardly ever played Ven. When Ven sent a team to TT for a goodwill tour in the 71 or 72, it was lower league and college students. They were not expecting TT football to be that competitve. We did not have a pro-league, and the pros were all overseas. Well they got a pretty good shell-lacking from the TT team. They play 3 games and lost by some heavy margins. There was even a fight in one of the games. They invited TT for return games. They then used their pros and beat TT 3-1 and 2-0(check me on the scores). Ven. has had decent teams it just were not good enough to match the other teams in their federation. Plz don't get over your head with Ven. At this moment their team can probly beat us good and proper.
What you, I, we must ask, is why TTFF never saw it in their wisdom to have annual or bi-annual goodwill games with Ven. in the past. We are neighbour, 7 miles apart, we have had no serious issues except the fishing problems. We have blood relations with our neighbor. We have historical and cultural ties with them. Playing them on a yearly basis, one year at home and one year away should be easy, you would think. The trophy for the game can be a cuatro or a pirogue.
That is right. This is who we should be playing more. Relying on games from the small islands is also killing our football. We should be focusing on getting matches with Venezuela and even Panama. These teams have done well lately. In fact some are saying that Panama will be contesting the .5 spot in Concacaf.
-
Playing neighbouring socalled weaker teams is not a problem with me. They are in our zone. We have an obligation to play them. They also want to play "big" teams like Trini and JA to measure their improvement, like how we want to Brazil, Arg, Eng, etc to measure how far we are. My problem is our fed. with a FIFA VP with the exception of the England game, hardly used his influence to have us play these big teams. It hardly matter that they would have creamed us. We needed these games for preparations and improvement. Jack was good for CFU and Concacaf, but TT football got the shitty end of the stick.
Asylumseeker, real nice info. on Ven. I followed it, but not that deep. I am not saying TT can't beat Ven. We just have to arrange the games to prove it. All we doing is assuming this and that. Forget assumptions and put 22 men on the field and let's see what happens. But they have improved. No doubt about it.
As for Panama, they playing good ball. I hope when we meet them, we are prepared. No ifs, buts, and excuses. Let's hope Otto prepare them for battle.
After the Haiti campaign in 73, Valencia, the Ven. champions 71, came to TT and played in the Oval. They had quite a few Brazilians and I think the TT team won or lost 2-1. I can't remember the accurate score. But that team was knocking the ball real good against us as far as I remembered.
-
I know its just a discussion, but really it matters little. Why! Because Venezuela is not in our Confederation. Keep an eye on those CONCACAF teams that are making rapid progress.
-
just take in Venezuela play Peru dey...we would have to bring our A game to beat Venezuela. Good game for TTFA to organize that shouldn't break the bank.
-
just take in Venezuela play Peru dey...we would have to bring our A game to beat Venezuela. Good game for TTFA to organize that shouldn't break the bank.
Peru with the equalizer in stoppage time
-
What a game this was
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RM has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RMs has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
If hart was there and he was supported, they would not cut our arse... they would thread carefully in fact
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RMs has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
If hart was there and he was supported, they would not cut our arse... they would thread carefully in fact
I agree, in fact I will say when Hart was coaching us without interference (Tim Kee era) we would've been capable of doing well. Now we have to find a way to back at playing at a decent level before we look to take on the likes of Venezuela. We looked woeful in our last 4 outings.
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RMs has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
If hart was there and he was supported, they would not cut our arse... they would thread carefully in fact
I agree, in fact I will say when Hart was coaching us without interference (Tim Kee era) we would've been capable of doing well. Now we have to find a way to back at playing at a decent level before we look to take on the likes of Venezuela. We looked woeful in our last 4 outings.
With zero interference we will be fine but is that possible in the toxic environment the dictator has created...
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RMs has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
If hart was there and he was supported, they would not cut our arse... they would thread carefully in fact
I agree, in fact I will say when Hart was coaching us without interference (Tim Kee era) we would've been capable of doing well. Now we have to find a way to back at playing at a decent level before we look to take on the likes of Venezuela. We looked woeful in our last 4 outings.
With zero interference we will be fine but is that possible in the toxic environment the dictator has created...
No! He needs to step back and allow the coaches and players to do their job on the field and provide them with the resources to do so adequately. No need to call players to find out how practice was or select players and staff on the coach's behalf.
-
Guys, I watching a replay of Malaga v Real. 2-1 to Madrid. CR can't even buy a goal today. The crowd on his case, but still cheering the Madrid team on. Madrid having the better of the game, but Malaga fighting like dogs. They frustrating the hell out of ZiZou. The interesting thing is Malaga has 4 Venezuelans on the starting eleven. So why the hell can't we get a couple cobo sweat against our neighbors just 7 miles away. DJW, Mr. TTFA. What is the problem?
It was a nice game, I agree Malaga Is a fighting team and they have an outstanding goalkeeper but RMs has too much talent, they could've easily scored 5...Anyway there are currently 7 Venezlueans in LaLiga they might cut we arse good and proper.
If hart was there and he was supported, they would not cut our arse... they would thread carefully in fact
I agree, in fact I will say when Hart was coaching us without interference (Tim Kee era) we would've been capable of doing well. Now we have to find a way to back at playing at a decent level before we look to take on the likes of Venezuela. We looked woeful in our last 4 outings.
With zero interference we will be fine but is that possible in the toxic environment the dictator has created...
No! He needs to step back and allow the coaches and players to do their job on the field and provide them with the resources to do so adequately. No need to call players to find out how practice was or select players and staff on the coach's behalf.
There is no guarantee he will not meddle again, his goal is sabotaging our team, so he will find another way, sadly that is the type of individual we are dealing with