Venezuela could leave us in the dust

[asylumseeker]

Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.

For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.

With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.

 

[palos]

Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.

For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.

With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.

 

Are you reproducing an article from about 5 years or so ago?

Because Venezuela has "exceeded our brand" from AT LEAST that time.

[ZANDOLIE]

And St Kitts, Grenada and B'dos nippin at we heels

[Savannah boy]

Steups.  When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.

[asylumseeker]

Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.

For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.

With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.

 

Are you reproducing an article from about 5 years or so ago?

Because Venezuela has "exceeded our brand" from AT LEAST that time.

Palos, that's interesting. In the last 3 or so years I've seen them make strides, but I haven't felt until now that they are well on the way.

I was following an interview with Rene Higuita this morning and he was adamant about what's going on in Venezuelan football. He's playing professionally again for a team there. New squad. Just promoted into the Venezuelan top flight after only one year in existence. Mostly local players with a couple Argentinians, Colombians and a Brazilian.

He was very lucid in how he presented the scene. Although you refer to 5 years ago (and I eh doubt yuh at all) I think their arrival was firmly announced during @ the Copa. Their is a lot of optimism in Venezuela right now and I'm really curious as to how they will acquit themselves during the qualifiers.

[Plus, there was some mention of Pibe Valderrama being on the ground there as well. Haven't verified in what capacity yet.

[asylumseeker]

Steups. When dey make two WC, then we in de dust.

Not sure whther that's an appropriate gauge given that we're coming out of two different confederations.

[Tallman]

Many of us viewed the recent Copa America. Based on several considerations, it's my opinion that Venezuelan football is setting itself in a place to exceed our 'brand' in the not so distant future.

For a long time not much attention was paid to the sport there, but the rumblings of change have been taking place.

With the deep pockets there and their immediate neighbors on the continent (esp. Colombia) plus the trickle of some of their youth/senior players overseas ...and local resourcefulness, I won't be surprised if they kind of eclipse us down the road.

Ah doh quite understand what yuh getting at, because we never even beat Venezuela in 5 attempts.

[vb]

Perhaps I know what he is getting at.

TT must play the 5th (or is it 6th) team in S. America for the right to go to the WC.

A much bigger headache than a third placed team from Asia.

Venezueal has made TREMENDOUS strides in the last 6 years. They are no longer the joke or easy 3pts that they were in the old days.

If we have to play them,it will be no cakewalk.

They may have beaten us in the past, but that was a shitty  Ven. side in an exhibition, akin to losing to Iceland.

Even if TT doesn't meet Ven., Lord help us if is Colombia or Peru at high alt. no amount of postive thinking will combat that obstacle.

VB

[asylumseeker]

There a lot of angles involved in why I brought this up.

Regardless of our inconsistent results, we are somewhat regarded as a football nation. Despite the fact that our approach for international match days has been uneven, every  Central American and Mexican I have spoken with treats us as 'legitimate'.

Perception wise the Venezuelans were not getting that kind of reaction within CONMEBOL. Generally, our football profile seemed higher than theirs and the FIFA rankings [whatever we think of them] traditionally bore that out. Granted, these days the ELO rankings show them as stronger. However, this is testament to their progress.

I'm looking at this from the view of how the game has developed comprehensively in their context versus ours.

Now Venezuela has players scattered all over the globe [Germany, Greece, Portugal, Bulgaria, Mexico, Argentina, Turkey, Cyprus, USA, Italy and Spain]. They've come a long way in a very short time.

We knocked on the door in '74. Again in '90 and finally made it to Germany in '06. Back then Venezuela was an absolute non-entity and occasional non-participant. Yet today we're both in a situation in which we're starting to place players abroad with consistency and we're both at a crucial stage in our development.

My contention is that Venezuela has the platform to get where we would like to be faster than we possibly may get there [and that national philosophy thread has a lot to do with what we do and how] - 2006 WC qualification aside - anybody here comfortable with a one-off?

I think the comparison between them and  what we have is reasonable. It's not a precise fit and it's not going to be decided on purely quantitative data or even qualitative info. I am commenting based on my read of the deal. I figure there will be several perspectives. If we expect to be a WC/global standard-bearer then we better assess our situation vis-a-vis the likes of (at least) the second tier South American countries.

The other day ah was checking out South Florida's roster and ah buck up a Venezuelan yute listed as having been part of Atletico Madrid's youth team. Without knowing more, that's fairly impressive.

We eh go find too many of their players in an English-speaking environment and that factor alone will be plenty in their favor.

****

Ah doh quite understand what yuh getting at, because we never even beat Venezuela in 5 attempts.

Tallman, that's good info to review. Forward wid de details nah.

Guidance.

[fishs]

 This is laughable , sorry if ah so dread about this thread, but I never know a time when Trinidad and Tobago was better than or on par with Venezuela.
Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group. Realistically we at odd sometimes magical times match the USA and Mexico for 20 mins in a game.
What I personally was hoping for was that after 2006 the coaching and development of the national team would bring us up to par with Mexico and definitely the US. Then we could be going into qualifiers with more confidence.

[palos]

Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group.

Unless Gally was de coach ent? 

[fishs]

Leh we face the facts, TT would not get past the Falkland Islands if we were in the SA group.

Unless Gally was de coach ent? 

At least it would be cultural .

[vb]

We may not have beaten them in five outings, but ah pretty sure we ddn't lose every gaem.

I remember the Ven.s  coming for a 2 or 3 game series back in the 80s.

I think we won or drew the first game. In the second, the TT squad was given a penalty, and the WHOLE Ven. team walk off the field.

TM give us the stats nah?

Peace,
VB

[Zeppo]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

[Andre]

venezuela done leave we in de dust.

that is the effect of football administration with a purpose and a plan.

[asylumseeker]

These are the results I dug up:

1. Friendly (home) July 2003
TT 2 : VEN 2 [0:1 @ the half]

2. Friendly (away) April 2003
VEN 3 : TT 0 [2:0 @ the half]

3. Friendly (home) May 1996
TT 0 : VEN 0

4. Friendly (home) July 1996
TT 0: VEN 0

5. Friendly (away) November 1971
VEN 1 : TT 0

I haven't found any evidence of matches between 1996 and 2003. Home and away is from our perspective.

***
Venezuela against CONCACAF opponents

... September 2007 v. Panama in Venezuela 1:1 [0:0] (friendly)

... June 2007 v. Canada in Venezuela 2:2 [2:1] (friendly)

... May 2007 v. Honduras VEN 2: HON 1 [2:1] in Ven (friendly)

March 2007 v. Cuba  VEN 3: CUBA 1 [2:0] (friendly)

... February 2007 MEX 3 : VEN 1 played in San Diego (friendly) [2-0 @ half]

... November 2006 VEN 2 : GUAT 1 [1:0] friendly in Ven

... August 2006 v. HOND 0-0 in Ven

... May 2006 lost 1-0 versus Mexico in the US (friendly)

... December 2005 ... Tied Panama 1-1 in Caracas (friendly)

... December 2004, Guatemala beat them at home 1-0 (friendly)

... Jamaica played them April 2004 in Kingston (friendly) Result 2:1 final and at the half. In favour of Jamaica.

... They played Haiti in August 2003. The result of that game was VEN 3 : Haiti 2 [0:0 @ the half ... friendly played in Maracaibo.]

[Filho]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

[Bakes]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

[trinikev]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either

[Bakes]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either

Do you see the relevance of your own post?

[trinikev]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

I think Filho's point is that football's popularity in Venezuela should not have an impact on this particular topic, which is whether or not Venezuela is better than us right now (at least thats how i see it). Looking at it from that perspective, i doh really see the relevance in bringing it up either

Do you see the relevance of your own post?

I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread

[Dutty]

I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread

zeppo just givin ah lil picong...it might ah come across as lil malicious and pointless, because picong is ah trini art

all men have to do is remind him about the setta cut ass dat usa basketball recieve from greece, lithuania and everybody other country dat could care less about b-ball at the last world championships and uncle sam go hadda dip he stove top hat

[Filho]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

in all seriousness, why would that need mentioning?

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.

Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly

That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more

[Bakes]

Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.

Which is why I see the relevance of his statement...at least I find it no less relevant than a good number of other responses in this and other threads.  Given the apparent consensus in this thread that Venezuela has surpassed TnT in footballing, an examination as to where exactly (specifically, but also in the grander scheme of things) Venezuelan football is, helps clarify the situation in TnT.  An analogy that I'm sure will confuse many, but I'll offer it all the same: 

Party A: Iraq today is much closer to the mythical Eden than Trinidad and Tobago.

Party B: ...and imagine that today in Iraq the life of an American dog is worth more than the life of the average Iraqi citizen.

...I'd be surprised if you can't see that Party B's response is also a commentary on the state of things in Trinidad.

Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly.  That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more

The true apples and oranges comparison may be your comparison of football in Venezuela to football in the US.  Given that they are both marginal sports in terms of popularity...football's status is more easily understood here in the US than the marginalization of the sport in a country where you'd think it would naturally take root.  Venezuela is surrounded by neighbors who are passionate about one thing and one thing only...football.  Looking at these neighbors Venezuela is indistinct from them in terms of culture, history, ethnicity etc.  The US is also surrounded by two countries that are passionate for football...although Canadians prefer to play it on ice with men on skates...if you get my drift.  Venezuela has no excuse as to why football is so marginalized.  Certainly they receive even less support than the sport does here in the US, for at least there's a thriving professional leagues, with a multi-year revenue now coming in from Television contracts.  Big name foreign players see football in the US as a product that they'd very much like to be a part of.  Not so with Venezuela.  You can't even justify the comparison given the strides that American football has made.  Understandable why the US has surpassed TnT...resources, that's it in a nutshell.  Resources that can be invested in player and program development etc.

If Venezuela has indeed surpassed TnT, what excuse do we have for that?  I'll leave it to Zeppo to elaborate more on his statement, but from the inference I derived, it's actually a brief, but pretty poignant analysis of the dire straits in which we find our Trini selves.

[Bakes]

I am saying that i, too, am wondering what is the point of mentioning that baseball is Venezuela's most popular sport. I dont find it relevant to this thread

...that even with scant resources and support Venezuela has managed to 'surpass' TnT in footballing (if the opinions here are to be accepted).

[Midknight]

Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.

As for whether or not Venezuela pass us, it very hard to say.
I observe simply that they seem to hold their own against mid level Concacaf opposition in the last 4 years (anything not named Mexico/US), that we haven't ever beaten them in an official match and that they are now coming into their own against south american opposition that we generally consider superior to us.

[Filho]

Bakes. I actually think there are a couple inferences that can be drawn from that statement and I'm not sure if any are relevant to this discussion. For one, stating that baseball is the most popular sport in Venezuela falls short of saying anything meaningful about the health of football in Venezuela.

Which is why I see the relevance of his statement...at least I find it no less relevant than a good number of other responses in this and other threads.  Given the apparent consensus in this thread that Venezuela has surpassed TnT in footballing, an examination as to where exactly (specifically, but also in the grander scheme of things) Venezuelan football is, helps clarify the situation in TnT. 

An analogy that I'm sure will confuse many, but I'll offer it all the same: 

Party A: Iraq today is much closer to the mythical Eden than Trinidad and Tobago.

Party B: ...and imagine that today in Iraq the life of an American dog is worth more than the life of the average Iraqi citizen.

...I'd be surprised if you can't see that Party B's response is also a commentary on the state of things in Trinidad.

I don't think what you've written here is analogous to Zeppos' statement. Zeppo says that baseball is the #1 sport in Venezuela. We can infer that he is assuming football is the #1 sport in T&T, if indeed his statement is meant as a comparison. Now, saying Iraq is closer to Eden than T&T, is an ordinal ranking. In terms of closeness to Eden, Iraq ranks above T&T. Therefore the 2nd statement you make says something about T&T. Zeppo's statement, at best, can give you 2 independent ordinal rankings. That is a) Baseball is more popular than football in Venezuela, and b) Football is more popular than all other sports in T&T. However, you cannot rank the popularity of football in Venezuela to that of T&T from that statement beacause, like I said..the 2 rankings are ordinal at best. If he gave numbers or percentages of the population that  support football in each country, that would be one thing, or relative levels of funding. As it stands, a marginal sport in Venezuela could still be more popular than the most popular sport in T&T, even if the actual % of the population that follows the sport is considerably smaller.

Also, given the size of the population in Venezuela, even marginal sports have the potential to receive greater support and develop more rapidly than a leading sport in T&T. This is akin to what you infer (i think)..and I think it begs the question as to whether we are comparing apples to apples. i mean soccer is not the most popular sport in the US, but even if it remains a marginal sport as it is now, more corporate money will be pumped into the sport, more people will play the sport and mre fans will turn up for games than will ever happen in T&T even if the TTFF got its house in order. Does that mean they will always be better than us..not necessarily..I am only speaking to the potential to develop the sport more rapidly.  That's why I asked about the relevance of the statement. I'm not sure what it adds to this particular discussion without elaborating more

The true apples and oranges comparison may be your comparison of football in Venezuela to football in the US. Given that they are both marginal sports in terms of popularity...football's status is more easily understood here in the US than the marginalization of the sport in a country where you'd think it would naturally take root.  Venezuela is surrounded by neighbors who are passionate about one thing and one thing only...football.  Looking at these neighbors Venezuela is indistinct from them in terms of culture, history, ethnicity etc.  The US is also surrounded by two countries that are passionate for football...although Canadians prefer to play it on ice with men on skates...if you get my drift.  Venezuela has no excuse as to why football is so marginalized.  Certainly they receive even less support than the sport does here in the US, for at least there's a thriving professional leagues, with a multi-year revenue now coming in from Television contracts.  Big name foreign players see football in the US as a product that they'd very much like to be a part of.  Not so with Venezuela.  You can't even justify the comparison given the strides that American football has made.  Understandable why the US has surpassed TnT...resources, that's it in a nutshell.  Resources that can be invested in player and program development etc.

If Venezuela has indeed surpassed TnT, what excuse do we have for that?  I'll leave it to Zeppo to elaborate more on his statement, but from the inference I derived, it's actually a brief, but pretty poignant analysis of the dire straits in which we find our Trini selves.

if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5.  What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.

[Filho]

Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.

As for whether or not Venezuela pass us, it very hard to say.
I observe simply that they seem to hold their own against mid level Concacaf opposition in the last 4 years (anything not named Mexico/US), that we haven't ever beaten them in an official match and that they are now coming into their own against south american opposition that we generally consider superior to us.

Ent? Watch how I ask the question. I feel Zeppo was taking a dig (cuz i really couldn't see the relevance). I engaging in a more theoretical debate with BnS now, but initially I was jes' trying to call out this fella

[Observer]

Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.

[Deeks]

Good Evening Guys.
                            It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.

Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.