Limited State of Emergency....

[Socapro]

LOL on Ctv they showing the nelson street fellas robbing people on the street , Via the CCTV cameras if you see how clean that footage is, Zoom and thing. The fat man who say he innocent , i see half he body inside somebody car robbing them, bunch ah slackers 

serious???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. so is now dey pull out this evidence? why didnt they bring this forward before. STEUPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

dpp say how the footage was from before SOE and anti gang legislation so it cyah work.

How does the footage prove that they are part of a gang?  Police misusing the law... if they commit a crime then arrest them... under the normal laws. Don't use one law to arrest them for ordinary crime when the law specifically geared for certain crimes... like gang activity.  This is why it get thrown out.  Now if the police smart they'd go and arrest the people they see committing crime on film for having committed those crimes... not for being part of no gang b.s.

As ridiculous as this might sound, I don't think the average T&T police man understands the law but is simply ensuring they keep their jobs by carrying out the instructions of their superiors.

[soccerman]

It's hard to prove (for me at least) if those men actually robbed the person(s) in the vehicle. Just like Preacher, I was trying to figure out if they knew the peolpe in the car.

[Controversial]

http://video.ctntworld.com/view/862/c-news-7pm-online-130911/

On a side note , Desha Rambhajan is without a doubt the best woman to provide nightly updates on just how bad the state is failing.

surprising how desha went into broadcasting, but she has done extremely well and im very happy for her being a long time friend

[Socapro]

It's hard to prove (for me at least) if those men actually robbed the person(s) in the vehicle. Just like Preacher, I was trying to figure out if they knew the peolpe in the car.

To me it looked more like they were passing the persons in the car something rather than robbing them!

It could very well have been a drugs transaction or even a nuts man passing his pack of salt or fresh nuts he was selling! 

[soccerman]

It's hard to prove (for me at least) if those men actually robbed the person(s) in the vehicle. Just like Preacher, I was trying to figure out if they knew the peolpe in the car.

To me it looked more like they were passing the persons in the car something rather than robbing them!

It could very well have been a drugs transaction or even a nuts man passing his pack of salt or fresh nuts he was selling! 

Ent!!! Ah still watching de news lol, ah on sports now....long time ah ain see we local news.

[Bakes]

Earlier this year the Evidence Act was amended to have video evidence admissible in court. So they could have been charged for a variety of crimes under other acts.....robbery...armed robbery etc. And they could have been picked up without a warrant since due to the SOE no warrant necessary.


So why were they released?


I now watch de video..and the prime minister's words which preceded it. After hearing that Hodge podge of vacuous rhetoric she spew I convinced even more that we living in Animal Farm.

They were arrested on suspicion of being gang members.  Even if the video showed them engaging in "gang activity" that evidence cannot be used if the video was taken before the law went into effect.  Think of it... every law has an "effective date", the date it goes into effect.  If they pass a law that says, "Beginning September 1, 2011 it shall be illegal to paint a house yellow"... and then they show you on tape painting yuh house yellow on August 20, 2011... they can't charge you based on that evidence because at the time you were engaged in the act, painting a house yellow was not a crime. 

So even if they saying that what's on the film constitutes "gang activity", they can only charge you for breaking the law after the effective date of the law.  You have to have an opportunity to conform your conduct to the law, they can't outlaw conduct and charge you after the fact, this is what's know as an ex post facto law... which most democracies recognize as unconstitutional.

-----------------

side note: I listening tuh Jah Gol girlfriend and wondering what de hell is ah "studont"... is that a pupil who learns at a convont?

[Bakes]

As ridiculous as this might sound, I don't think the average T&T police man understands the law but is simply ensuring they keep their jobs by carrying out the instructions of their superiors.

Doesn't sound ridiculous at all... we know dat is what going on.  In addition to police just running amok with the freedom they get under the anti-gang law... "I think you's ah gang member, come here."  I even remember reading a quote in the Express from the Indian police official, not Anand Ramesar, the fella who responsible for Lavantille, Nelson St. etc.  Ah suspect who get pick up protested as they put him in de tray that he ent in no gang, so why he being arrested.  The high-ranking cop tell him "we just taking yuh downtown, just because we transporting yuh dat doh mean we arresting yuh."  What??

[Football supporter]

Apparently, the story goes like this.......

No one in the protective services were prepared for the SOE. Add to that the two top cops were overseas. Alledgedly, govt needed a big win, particularly as there was a lot of confusion about limited SOE, national SOE, curfew in hot spots, curfew nationwide etc.

Police were told to go and get the gang members. Somehow, the message wasn't delivered clearly and the details of the SOE and the new AGL were not clearly explained to the rank and file, particularly the very important point that until 15th August, being a gang member was totally LEGAL.

The police went after known gang members who they knew had committed crimes, but previous to the SOE could not be arrested as the evidence was too weak. Now, they believed they didn't need evidence to arrest and detain them, and they were correct. However, you do need evidence if you wanted to charge them. This was their mistake. They didn't detain them under the SOE, they arrested them under the AGL, which meant they had to be charged. And of course, any evidence they had was from before 15th August.

A total FUBAR. The police are legally able to go back out and detain them under the SOE if they wish. I'm still not clear why many of the arrested people weren't detained as this would have at least got them off the streets for 4 months (which I assume was the aim of govt).

As it stands, the 21 can sue for (I think) wrongful imprisonment. If they could get their cases to court, they could be paid a tidy sum. The ironic thing is, that at least some of them are gang members and the govt, through its mishandling of this situation, could actually find themselves funding gun and drug purchases.

Over to you, Bakes.

 

[Football supporter]

http://video.ctntworld.com/view/862/c-news-7pm-online-130911/

On a side note , Desha Rambhajan is without a doubt the best woman to provide nightly updates on just how bad the state is failing.

Just so you all know, Desha is the woman I love and we will be getting married soon (just as soon as I eventually meet here and propose), so you all better back off, coz I know where you all live, yuh get meh?

[Bakes]

Apparently, the story goes like this.......

No one in the protective services were prepared for the SOE. Add to that the two top cops were overseas. Alledgedly, govt needed a big win, particularly as there was a lot of confusion about limited SOE, national SOE, curfew in hot spots, curfew nationwide etc.

Police were told to go and get the gang members. Somehow, the message wasn't delivered clearly and the details of the SOE and the new AGL were not clearly explained to the rank and file, particularly the very important point that until 15th August, being a gang member was totally LEGAL.

The police went after known gang members who they knew had committed crimes, but previous to the SOE could not be arrested as the evidence was too weak. Now, they believed they didn't need evidence to arrest and detain them, and they were correct. However, you do need evidence if you wanted to charge them. This was their mistake. They didn't detain them under the SOE, they arrested them under the AGL, which meant they had to be charged. And of course, any evidence they had was from before 15th August.

A total FUBAR. The police are legally able to go back out and detain them under the SOE if they wish. I'm still not clear why many of the arrested people weren't detained as this would have at least got them off the streets for 4 months (which I assume was the aim of govt).

As it stands, the 21 can sue for (I think) wrongful imprisonment. If they could get their cases to court, they could be paid a tidy sum. The ironic thing is, that at least some of them are gang members and the govt, through its mishandling of this situation, could actually find themselves funding gun and drug purchases.

Over to you, Bakes.

 

They could have arrested them under the AGL (which they did) the standard is almost as ridiculously low to arrest under the AGL, as it is to arrest for any offense under the SoE.  Typically police need probable cause (to believe that a crime has been committed, and that the person being arrested has committed that crime) in order to arrest.  Under the AGL the police only need suspicion that you are in a gang.  Under the SoE they only need suspicion that you have engaged in criminal activity... of any kind, not just gang-related crime.

The problem is that they still must have enough evidence (to get past the 'reasonable doubt' standard) in order to lay charges.  The way the logic works is that you shouldn't (breach of ethics) charge someone with a crime that you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt... because that means you know you can't secure a conviction (meet the reasonable doubt standard) but you're charging them anyways.  That's wrong on many levels, some theoretical/philosophical, some practical.  So kudos to Gaspard.  To answer your second bolded question, this is why they had to release them... the law doesn't say they could hold you for up to 4 months... you just can't be bailed out for at least 4 months.  But before we get to the question of bail, you need to justify to a magistrate that the person should be held over to begin with (that you have sufficient evidence to satisfy a conviction).  This is the first threshold that Gaspard acknowledged that they couldn't meet.  So if you can't convict them, what you keeping them locked up for... is how the judge (and yesterday's magistrate) sees it.

[Brownsugar]

now dey put cedros and moruga fuuckin Now when dey people done move what dey have to move jokers.................and What about Lisas.how nobody reach dey yet

Lefty, this is just another reason why I cyar take this SOE seriously......my guess is that the crisis that was averted but still needs another 3 months to be averted, now reach these new curfew areas......setta f&%^%*ng jokers!! 

Enjoy yuh trip eh Kamla girl, yuh damn right!! 

[D.H.W]

As i said before alyuh didnt see the clean larger version of the tape. Man saying is nuts selling yes hahaha. It probrably wasnt funny for people being robbed

[Socapro]

As ridiculous as this might sound, I don't think the average T&T police man understands the law but is simply ensuring they keep their jobs by carrying out the instructions of their superiors.

Doesn't sound ridiculous at all... we know dat is what going on.  In addition to police just running amok with the freedom they get under the anti-gang law... "I think you's ah gang member, come here."  I even remember reading a quote in the Express from the Indian police official, not Anand Ramesar, the fella who responsible for Lavantille, Nelson St. etc.  Ah suspect who get pick up protested as they put him in de tray that he ent in no gang, so why he being arrested.  The high-ranking cop tell him "we just taking yuh downtown, just because we transporting yuh dat doh mean we arresting yuh."  What??

I think his name is Singh!

[ProudTrinbagonian]

Police abusing their power?  What else is new...

On another note, I heard a story a man get arrested for breaking the curfew saying he had to give money to his mother at 1:00 am.  Now he claiming he was targeted.  What was he doing out at that hour?  What good could the mother have done with that money at that time if he was telling the truth?

[Bourbon]

http://video.ctntworld.com/view/862/c-news-7pm-online-130911/

On a side note , Desha Rambhajan is without a doubt the best woman to provide nightly updates on just how bad the state is failing.

Yeah all dat is tactics so de blow softened. Yuh doh mind hearing dotishness as much once de person dat hadda relay the dotishness good looking.


Anyhow...people does say the law is an ass...but like that extend to the law makers and law enforcers yes.

[sammy]

wouldnt they need a witness to charge them for robbing the ppl inthe car?

[lefty]

I doh even watch CnMg or CNC3 since it clear dat dem is now official propaganda arms of d Gov't not that CNMG wasn't before these jokers but it worse now.....alyuh does see what does pass as critical analysis of Gov't initiatives dese days...........it reminds me of Ramesh being interviewed by he daughter...... pure nonsense

[Bourbon]

wouldnt they need a witness to charge them for robbing the ppl inthe car?

Yeah i guess so. The AG was saying that people were afraid to come foward.

[dinho]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

[truetrini]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

Jail dey c**t....in fact shoot de modder c**ts and dem

I do however question the release of the film.  This is part of intelligence gathering and from the angle etc. the miscreants can gather their own intelligence.  Stop trying to collect political points anand...jes do the f**king job

[warmonga]

dont worry bout dem wutless pieces of shit  ..you will hear bout them DOA real soon .. police dont romp....
war

[D.H.W]

Detainees not so innocent
Wednesday 14th September, 2011
 
Government and police continue to defend actions taken against 21 men who were detained in a Nelson Street raid three weeks ago and released on Monday, saying while the DPP dismissed charges on grounds of insufficient evidence, there was evidence to move against them.
 
On Tuesday, a video clip showing crime being committed in the Nelson Street area was released following an emergency meeting of the National Security Council.
 
Speaking on the First Up Programme, Deputy Commissioner of Police, Mr Mervyn Richardson, gave the police perspective on the August 23rd raid.
 
He said, "We had collated an abundance of information and intelligence that speak to these guys and what was going on there. I will now admit that if the State of Emergency was not actioned on the 21st of August, on the 21st, there would have been a massive operation taking place on Nelson Street regardless."
 
Also speaking on the First Up Programme this morning was Attorney General Anand Ramlogan.
 
While both men hesitated to positively identify any of the men in the clip, only saying there is a striking resemblance to some of the released detainees, they both took issue with media reports that implied the men were just innocent citizens.
 
AG Ramlogan said, "When I saw the headlines and the internet, these celebrity status being accorded and they were hitting back and the psychological war was being lost. We had to call upon our leader and the Prime Minister, as head of the National Security Council when we saw this. We were coming down hard on the police - what it is you are doing? When the police shared with us, I said, these guys are not how you are putting them across. It is not any decent, soft kind of thing. This is what the reality is."
 
AG Ramlogan said there are two sides to every coin.
http://www.ctntworld.com/LocalArticles.aspx?id=31764&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[weary1969]

Detainees not so innocent
Wednesday 14th September, 2011
 
Government and police continue to defend actions taken against 21 men who were detained in a Nelson Street raid three weeks ago and released on Monday, saying while the DPP dismissed charges on grounds of insufficient evidence, there was evidence to move against them.
 
On Tuesday, a video clip showing crime being committed in the Nelson Street area was released following an emergency meeting of the National Security Council.
 
Speaking on the First Up Programme, Deputy Commissioner of Police, Mr Mervyn Richardson, gave the police perspective on the August 23rd raid.
 
He said, "We had collated an abundance of information and intelligence that speak to these guys and what was going on there. I will now admit that if the State of Emergency was not actioned on the 21st of August, on the 21st, there would have been a massive operation taking place on Nelson Street regardless."
 
Also speaking on the First Up Programme this morning was Attorney General Anand Ramlogan.
 
While both men hesitated to positively identify any of the men in the clip, only saying there is a striking resemblance to some of the released detainees, they both took issue with media reports that implied the men were just innocent citizens.
 
AG Ramlogan said, "When I saw the headlines and the internet, these celebrity status being accorded and they were hitting back and the psychological war was being lost. We had to call upon our leader and the Prime Minister, as head of the National Security Council when we saw this. We were coming down hard on the police - what it is you are doing? When the police shared with us, I said, these guys are not how you are putting them across. It is not any decent, soft kind of thing. This is what the reality is."
 
AG Ramlogan said there are two sides to every coin.
http://www.ctntworld.com/LocalArticles.aspx?id=31764&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Richie I could call yuh dat because I know u from meh days in Police spare me please. If yuh had intelligence then yuh would ah pick up d fellas from d clip not Tom/Dick and Harry when yuh only want Tom and Dick.

[Football supporter]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

That wall they all hidin behind have to come down!

[Preacher]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

That wall they all hidin behind have to come down!

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

[Bakes]

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

This kinda simplistic sheep thinking really irritates me... if you read the article you'll see where Richardson say they was planning on moving against them fellas in Nelson St. before the SoE.  Clearly they didn't need the SoE to act and clearly this has nothing to do with calling a SoE.

[mukumsplau]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

That wall they all hidin behind have to come down!

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

them kinda thing not new to d police. if they had to call a state of emergency errtime that happen then we might as well celebrate bein  a police state...d 'good' police jus doh do they wuk thaz all ..and if that sort of thing so new and so astonishing to some ppl then they livin under a rock...

[Socapro]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/A7fSFaqmY8U&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

That wall they all hidin behind have to come down!

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

Don't see how you can relate this activity to the justification for an SOE.

All we need is for the police to do their jobs properly to get these guys if they have video evidence of their criminal activity! An SOE is not required in this instance to do your job if you're a police officer!

You let me down on this one here Preacher cause I view you as an intelligent chap!

[Preacher]

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

This kinda simplistic sheep thinking really irritates me... if you read the article you'll see where Richardson say they was planning on moving against them fellas in Nelson St. before the SoE.  Clearly they didn't need the SoE to act and clearly this has nothing to do with calling a SoE.

Simplistic sheep? Yeah I haven't gone against the grain for a while. I'm just playing. Nonetheless, I watching the vid for what it is Bakes and no I didn't read the entire article.  I'm not trying to over analyze and split hairs 4 ways and thing. That is blatant lawlessness and it have everything to do with the SOE.!!!   You see TC's response and others?  That visual begs/SCREAMS for the implementation of governance, personal or legislative, vigilante or elected.  The role of elected government to the people supersedes even those elected when the people are crisis.  Sure, they fumbling big time, yes the police had a choice, regardless, it's innocent civilians paying the price.  Lawlessness provokes laws, if it doesn't then you won't have a country.  Sadly, after a certain level of lawlessness you don't get to pick and choose anymore. The Bull has been loose to long, he no longer believes in boundaries so now you have to take it down with bullets.  If the government don't do it civilians would do it.  It's a universal progression regarding self, state and land.  As for the crocked police or police not doing their jobs, once law abiding citizens have renewed faith in law they will police the police. 


And Mr. Pro I still waiting for you to respond to that track. 

[Brownsugar]

Thing like that happening in broad daylight and allyuh fightin down SOE?  I guess I need to get my 60 year old mother a gun then?   

This kinda simplistic sheep thinking really irritates me... if you read the article you'll see where Richardson say they was planning on moving against them fellas in Nelson St. before the SoE.  Clearly they didn't need the SoE to act and clearly this has nothing to do with calling a SoE.

Simplistic sheep? Yeah I haven't gone against the grain for a while. I'm just playing. Nonetheless, I watching the vid for what it is Bakes and no I didn't read the entire article.  I'm not trying to over analyze and split hairs 4 ways and thing. That is blatant lawlessness and it have everything to do with the SOE.!!!   You see TC's response and others?  That visual begs/SCREAMS for the implementation of governance, personal or legislative, vigilante or elected.  The role of elected government to the people supersedes even those elected when the people are crisis.  Sure, they fumbling big time, yes the police had a choice, regardless, it's innocent civilians paying the price.  Lawlessness provokes laws, if it doesn't then you won't have a country.  Sadly, after a certain level of lawlessness you don't get to pick and choose anymore. The Bull has been loose to long, he no longer believes in boundaries so now you have to take it down with bullets.  If the government don't do it civilians would do it.  It's a universal progression regarding self, state and land.  As for the crocked police or police not doing their jobs, once law abiding citizens have renewed faith in law they will police the police. 


And Mr. Pro I still waiting for you to respond to that track. 

Preacher,  everything that has been done since the start of this SOE........

DID NOT REQUIRE AN SOE TO FIX IT!!!!!
Tell mih something Preacher.  Ent you remember when NY was dangerous back in the 70's through to the early 90's??   You ever hear dem institute a SOE to fix their crime problem??  steups!!

In fact, the President and Kamla eh taking this SOE seriously.....why the fack I should.....double steups!!!!

On a separate but related note.....ah notice de Unions cyar make a note boy.....dem went from rallying to troops and in fire and brimstone mode to walking on egg shells.......hhhhhhmmmmm.......ah have a theory.....but it so crazy it cyar work.....so let me goh back to the script.....the SOE was called to avert a crisis that was already averted that need 3 more months to avert.....triple steups!!!!