WC 2010 - Match 5 - Group C: England vs USA

[Richard G.]

Gentlemen as bad as dat goal was, Green is a PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALLER. He's been there done that. He pretty much saved England's backside with that shot off the post in the 2nd half.

Gaf.....absolutely. Gift.....as good as a dozen roses. He'll survive and most likely start next match. What happens in that match we'll only know when the whistle blows.

Blessings and enjoy de day
Richard G.

[Bakes]

Capello should have used Defoe instead of  Peter f*ckin Crouch-because even more so than with Heskey is highballs to his lengay arse for him tuh knock down. So predictable. Defoe would have made USA's defence work a little with his movement. I waitin tuh see which team will give them the cutarse that will finally shatter the myth that dey are a quality side. Should be great to watch!

Defoe was never coming on in this game, especially not the way the English midfield was stifled yesterday, forcing England to resort to long balls.  Additionally, the US have two big strong center backs in Onyewu and Bocanegra to a lesser degree, that made the choice of Heskey near automatic... Crouch was never starting.

Next game Defoe will start alongside Rooney.

[giggsy11]

Capello should have used Defoe instead of  Peter f*ckin Crouch-because even more so than with Heskey is highballs to his lengay arse for him tuh knock down. So predictable. Defoe would have made USA's defence work a little with his movement. I waitin tuh see which team will give them the cutarse that will finally shatter the myth that dey are a quality side. Should be great to watch!

Defoe was never coming on in this game, especially not the way the English midfield was stifled yesterday, forcing England to resort to long balls.  Additionally, the US have two big strong center backs in Onyewu and Bocanegra to a lesser degree, that made the choice of Heskey near automatic... Crouch was never starting.

Next game Defoe will start alongside Rooney.

Lennon had some success out wide when he did get the ball, England did a poor job of getting him the ball. Adding Defoe to the mix would have forced the "big strong center backs" to move around a little more after having to battle Heskey most of the game. Plus he and Lennon are familiar with how each other plays.

[Mango Chow!]

Capello should have used Defoe instead of  Peter f*ckin Crouch-because even more so than with Heskey is highballs to his lengay arse for him tuh knock down. So predictable. Defoe would have made USA's defence work a little with his movement. I waitin tuh see which team will give them the cutarse that will finally shatter the myth that dey are a quality side. Should be great to watch!

Defoe was never coming on in this game, especially not the way the English midfield was stifled yesterday, forcing England to resort to long balls.  Additionally, the US have two big strong center backs in Onyewu and Bocanegra to a lesser degree, that made the choice of Heskey near automatic... Crouch was never starting.

Next game Defoe will start alongside Rooney.

Lennon had some success out wide when he did get the ball, England did a poor job of getting him the ball. Adding Defoe to the mix would have forced the "big strong center backs" to move around a little more after having to battle Heskey most of the game. Plus he and Lennon are familiar with how each other plays.

    not to mention that, since onyewu is fresh off of recovering from injury, yuh WANT to put his mobility to test.

[Bakes]

Robbie Findley coulda well be in a better place. Big sweat vs Calidonia and he at the WC, not smart at all.

  ...

What's the story behind his non-inclusion during qualifying?

Charlie Davies.

[Zeppo]

[100% Barataria]

Good one

[Preacher]

If England gets out of there group who might they play?  Any body have a guess?  I need something to look forward to.

[Mango Chow!]

If England gets out of there group who might they play?  Any body have a guess?  I need something to look forward to.

   According to MY prediction.....they should (have) be(en) playing the second-place team in Group D.....who I have listed as Ghana!

[kicker]

Too much talk about technique on the goalkeeping error... I don't think this had much to do with technique- sure he coulda chosen a better way to gather the ball but the shot was so weak and it came straight at him, that even slightly flawed technique should have been enough to keep it out of the net- heck he could have used his feet to trap it... All over the field players are controlling more difficult passes with their feet...I think he had a simple lapse in concentration- If we were able to watch his eye to ball contact all the way through in slow motion, we might see that he took his eye off the ball for a brief micro second...or if not, if we could read minds we could possibly see that he switched off before the ball was safely in his grip.  

Algeria's goalkeeper arguably made a technical error today- the ball was whipped at him at speed, and from an angle, it took one hop, and he didn't get behind it.  That shot required some technique.  Green in my opinion, had a mental lapse...the ball trickled through to him, bounced two or three times, and from straight on- can't blame technique- If he focused on the ball all the way until it was safely in his grip, it would not have gone past him.

Rewind to WC '94- Pagliuca dropped a shot from Mauro Silva on to the post in the final...Slow motion saw that he shifted his eye contact for a brief fraction of a second, and that made the difference.  Pagliuca was one of the best I've seen in the business- luckily the ball hit the post on that effort...It can happen to anyone.

England's problem is the inability to create through the middle of the field- They were poor yesterday. Green's mistake is overshadowing the real problem...

[Mango Chow!]

Too much talk about technique on the goalkeeping error... I don't think this had much to do with technique- sure he coulda chosen a better way to gather the ball but the shot was so weak and it came straight at him, that even slightly flawed technique should have been enough to keep it out of the net- heck he could have used his feet to trap it... All over the field players are controlling more difficult passes with their feet...I think he had a simple lapse in concentration- If we were able to watch his eye to ball contact all the way through in slow motion, we might see that he took his eye off the ball for a brief micro second...or if not, if we could read minds we could possibly see that he switched off before the ball was safely in his grip.  

Algeria's goalkeeper arguably made a technical error today- the ball was whipped at him at speed, and from an angle, it took one hop, and he didn't get behind it.  That shot required some technique.  Green in my opinion, had a mental lapse...the ball trickled through to him, bounced two or three times, and from straight on- can't blame technique- If he focused on the ball all the way until it was safely in his grip, it would not have gone past him.

Rewind to WC '94- Pagliuca dropped a shot from Mauro Silva on to the post in the final...Slow motion saw that he shifted his eye contact for a brief fraction of a second, and that made the difference.  Pagliuca was one of the best I've seen in the business- luckily the ball hit the post on that effort...It can happen to anyone.

England's problem is the inability to create through the middle of the field- They were poor yesterday. Green's mistake is overshadowing the real problem...

   Yuh wrong dey, Kicker.  It IS all about technique, and especially in Robert Green's case.  His body positioning behind the ball was ALL wrong.  His hand position was wrong and the comparison to what Gianluca Pagliuca did back in '94 is not the one to use.  I'm sure it was a different shot on a different pitch with the ball taking a different path and the goalkeeper having his body in a totally different position.  TRUST when I tell you that the ball that Green screwed up last night, had he positioned himself properly, he might even have afforded to take his eye off the ball and it wasn't getting past his body no matter what his hands did.
I don't know how there could be too much talk about technique when his technique is what ultimately cost england two valuable points.  For all the ineptitude that england were showing all over the pitch, they still had the lead and given the hype and media surrounding this particular game, I don't know what else you expect would dominate headlines and talking points but Green's error....   

[Preacher]

If England gets out of there group who might they play?  Any body have a guess?  I need something to look forward to.

   According to MY prediction.....they should (have) be(en) playing the second-place team in Group D.....who I have listed as Ghana!

Thanks Ghana does do somethings great then all of a sudden you wonder why they making certain decisions.

[kicker]

   Yuh wrong dey, Kicker.  It IS all about technique, and especially in Robert Green's case.  His body positioning behind the ball was ALL wrong.  His hand position was wrong and the comparison to what Gianluca Pagliuca did back in '94 is not the one to use.  I'm sure it was a different shot on a different pitch with the ball taking a different path and the goalkeeper having his body in a totally different position.  TRUST when I tell you that the ball that Green screwed up last night, had he positioned himself properly, he might even have afforded to take his eye off the ball and it wasn't getting past his body no matter what his hands did.
I don't know how there could be too much talk about technique when his technique is what ultimately cost england two valuable points.  For all the ineptitude that england were showing all over the pitch, they still had the lead and given the hype and media surrounding this particular game, I don't know what else you expect would dominate headlines and talking points but Green's error....   

I don't agree...

Mistakes happen in football- and that's all that was.  There are amateur keepers all over the world making more difficult saves than that with flawed technique.  For a shot that weak, I blame concentration over technique because yuh doh need to be a technically sound keeper to save that...Allyuh gettin' on Robert Green never put on a pair of gloves in his life and he needs some kinda goalkeeping 101 lesson...It was a mistake- pure and simple.  Now if he sh*ts the bed in the next game, then the conversation ought to take a different tone...

I also think Green is being made a scapegoat for an England team that underperformed really badly in many areas of the field.  On paper with a big coach like Capello at the helm, England should be able to afford an error and still beat the U.S...They could stay there and focus on Green- that isn't their problem....David James mighta saved that shot (though when it comes to Gaffes he's the frickin' president)... but may not have saved the shot from Altidore that Green deflected off the post....yuh never know.

Green could have a mistake free World Cup but if Capello can't get that midfield working, and can't figure out a better attacking combo, England eh winnin' nuttin'....

Six of one, half dozen of the other I suppose.  

[Mango Chow!]

   Yuh wrong dey, Kicker.  It IS all about technique, and especially in Robert Green's case.  His body positioning behind the ball was ALL wrong.  His hand position was wrong and the comparison to what Gianluca Pagliuca did back in '94 is not the one to use.  I'm sure it was a different shot on a different pitch with the ball taking a different path and the goalkeeper having his body in a totally different position.  TRUST when I tell you that the ball that Green screwed up last night, had he positioned himself properly, he might even have afforded to take his eye off the ball and it wasn't getting past his body no matter what his hands did.
I don't know how there could be too much talk about technique when his technique is what ultimately cost england two valuable points.  For all the ineptitude that england were showing all over the pitch, they still had the lead and given the hype and media surrounding this particular game, I don't know what else you expect would dominate headlines and talking points but Green's error....   

I don't agree...

Mistakes happen in football- and that's all that was.  There are amateur keepers all over the world making more difficult saves than that with flawed technique.  For a shot that weak, I blame concentration over technique because yuh doh need to be a technically sound keeper to save that...Allyuh gettin' on Robert Green never put on a pair of gloves in his life and he needs some kinda goalkeeping 101 lesson...It was a mistake- pure and simple.  Now if he sh*ts the bed in the next game, then the conversation ought to take a different tone...

I also think Green is being made a scapegoat for an England team that underperformed really badly in many areas of the field.  On paper with a big coach like Capello at the helm, England should be able to afford an error and still beat the U.S...They could stay there and focus on Green- that isn't their problem....David James mighta saved that shot (though when it comes to Gaffes he's the frickin' president)... but may not have saved the shot from Altidore that Green deflected off the post....yuh never know.

Green could have a mistake free World Cup but if Capello can't get that midfield working, and can't figure out a better attacking combo, England eh winnin' nuttin'....

Six of one, half dozen of the other I suppose.  

We will agree to disagree.  I do agree that goalkeepers the world over make saves with flawed technique and GK coaches are encouraged to allow flawed technique with certain things like "which leg you should use to jump with when going up for crosses and how you should position your body" once it doesn't affect your ability to catch the ball cleanly...because for certain things, you can get overly technical and some people just don't have the coordination to do them but can still be great 'keepers.....but for the position that Green chose to use to receive that clint dempsey back pass there is a proper technique to be used. Green didn't use it and it cost him a goal and loads of embarrassment, england two points and it possibly saved the usa's skin.  EVERY GK that makes a terrible error gets analyzed, humiliated and talked about.  Green is playing on the biggest stage in the world and made an error that schoolboys in Under-14 can't afford to make.  He is a professional that should be way past that type of error.  I don't see that too much is being made of it.   

[Bakes]

Too much talk about technique on the goalkeeping error... I don't think this had much to do with technique- sure he coulda chosen a better way to gather the ball but the shot was so weak and it came straight at him, that even slightly flawed technique should have been enough to keep it out of the net- heck he could have used his feet to trap it... All over the field players are controlling more difficult passes with their feet...I think he had a simple lapse in concentration- If we were able to watch his eye to ball contact all the way through in slow motion, we might see that he took his eye off the ball for a brief micro second...or if not, if we could read minds we could possibly see that he switched off before the ball was safely in his grip.  

Algeria's goalkeeper arguably made a technical error today- the ball was whipped at him at speed, and from an angle, it took one hop, and he didn't get behind it.  That shot required some technique.  Green in my opinion, had a mental lapse...the ball trickled through to him, bounced two or three times, and from straight on- can't blame technique- If he focused on the ball all the way until it was safely in his grip, it would not have gone past him.

Rewind to WC '94- Pagliuca dropped a shot from Mauro Silva on to the post in the final...Slow motion saw that he shifted his eye contact for a brief fraction of a second, and that made the difference.  Pagliuca was one of the best I've seen in the business- luckily the ball hit the post on that effort...It can happen to anyone.

England's problem is the inability to create through the middle of the field- They were poor yesterday. Green's mistake is overshadowing the real problem...

Nah, you missing the boat on this one.  The main reason why you drill the fundamentals is that you execute them without having to think about them.  This means that when the mind shuts down the body still executes subconsciously.  We ALL know that Green suffered a lapse in concentration, but the fact remains that had he properly position his body behind the ball then lapse in concentration or not that positioning would have been his second line of defense.  It's the same reasoning when fielding a ground ball in cricket, the hands are the first line of defense, the body positioning second.  Mistakes happen in football, yes... but they are amplified when simple execution of technique could prevent them.  Lampard missing a penalty because he slip is an excusable mistake.  Lampard missing because he hit de ball ah toepee instead of striking with the side of his foot or instep is not.  That's not the proper way to strike the ball, nor is Green's positioning the proper way to field the ball.

As for the error masking other English deficiencies that goes without saying and is totally besides the point.

[asylumseeker]

I'm sure GK coaches etc. will highlight something I noticed on watching the goal again. When the ball moved away from his gloves he lost any possibility of retrieving it when he made contact with the ground twice before making an attempt at retrieving the ball ... we talking nanoseconds here ... the first contact with the ground (his left hand) din kill him ... it was fuh sure the second contact with the ground with his right hand that definitely did him in ...

[asylumseeker]

Interesting. So Bradley didn't have another understudy to Davies prior to opting for Findley?

[Mango Chow!]

I'm sure GK coaches etc. will highlight something I noticed on watching the goal again. When the ball moved away from his gloves he lost any possibility of retrieving it when he made contact with the ground twice before making an attempt at retrieving the ball ... we talking nanoseconds here ... the first contact with the ground (his left hand) din kill him ... it was fuh sure the second contact with the ground with his right hand that definitely did him in ...

....'Seeker boy.....it really wasn't as much his hands as it was his whole body to begin with.  If he had lined up himself behind the ball properly, it really wouldn'ta matter what his hands did.  The ball wouldn'ta get past him. 

[Bakes]

Interesting. So Bradley didn't have another understudy to Davies prior to opting for Findley?

Davies himself was an understudy before emerging late... Ching had been the long time starter, fending off challenges by Eddie Johnson among others.  Davies' pace was a revelation last summer, then he got hurt in October(?)  So it's not like he was there long enough to have an understudy.  Plus it happened late after the team qualified.  Findley only distinguished himself since the MLS season started in March... so understandably he's been new to the mix.

[palos]

well well well, nice to see him finally playing sr football, tt should have drafted him a long time ago when i spoted him years ago, look forward to see him doing well for the red white and blue.

tt lapse bad oui

YOU A SCOUT SCOUNT NOW EH

 

[dinho]

i eh go lie, ah do nuff shit in goal when i used to keep but i eh think ah put down one like that.

for all the talk about flawed positioning, the technical problem was in the way he try to gather the ball and not where he positioned himself.

EVEN IF he had gotten his whole body behind the ball it wasn't saving him the way he tried to stop it and not gather it.. he let the ball deflect off his hands and off to the right away from his body. The problem was he tried stopping the ball with two hands instead of scooping it and misjudged the ball completely so it end up on his right hand alone. Poor goalkeeping.

Casillas was right, goalkeeping is a big problem for the English. Not one of their players has played in Europe this year or been in a top 10 EPL side and no team with title credentials should be going into a tournament unsure of who the number 1 is.

[Mango Chow!]

i eh go lie, ah do nuff shit in goal when i used to keep but i eh think ah put down one like that.

for all the talk about flawed positioning, the technical problem was in the way he try to gather the ball and not where he positioned himself.

EVEN IF he had gotten his whole body behind the ball it wasn't saving him the way he tried to stop it and not gather it.. he let the ball deflect off his hands and off to the right away from his body. The problem was he tried stopping the ball with two hands instead of scooping it and misjudged the ball completely so it end up on his right hand alone. Poor goalkeeping.

Casillas was right, goalkeeping is a big problem for the English. Not one of their players has played in Europe this year or been in a top 10 EPL side and no team with title credentials should be going into a tournament unsure of who the number 1 is.

  Sorry, dinho, yuh talkin shit dey.

[kicker]

Nah, you missing the boat on this one.  The main reason why you drill the fundamentals is that you execute them without having to think about them.  This means that when the mind shuts down the body still executes subconsciously.  We ALL know that Green suffered a lapse in concentration, but the fact remains that had he properly position his body behind the ball then lapse in concentration or not that positioning would have been his second line of defense.  It's the same reasoning when fielding a ground ball in cricket, the hands are the first line of defense, the body positioning second.  Mistakes happen in football, yes... but they are amplified when simple execution of technique could prevent them.  Lampard missing a penalty because he slip is an excusable mistake.  Lampard missing because he hit de ball ah toepee instead of striking with the side of his foot or instep is not.  That's not the proper way to strike the ball, nor is Green's positioning the proper way to field the ball.

As for the error masking other English deficiencies that goes without saying and is totally besides the point.

Disagree...technique and concentration are not mutually exclusive nor is technique a fool-proof back up for mental lapses.  I agree that yuh drill technique over and over and over so that yuh don't need to focus as hard in order to execute what are the simplest of techniques- but if yuh mind switches off, yuh technique will or can go as well- that's why fatigue is factor that affects execution.  Concentration will always be an x-factor in execution even in the simplest execution.  Anyways, all I'm saying is that all this fuss in the thread over what he did wrong technically is a waste unless one realistically thinks Green is that technically deficient, which I think is ludicrous- He's a professional at the highest level who will make that save 99 out of 100 times...it was a bad mistake- end of story... Allyuh feel Capello and the coaching staff looking at that goal on repeat to figure out where Green went wrong technically?  It was a mere f*ck up that gave the headline makers some cheap shot opportunities (and there were some funny ones).  In the realm of football discussions, England has other knots to untie in my opinion. 

I dunno how you could say that what I'm saying is besides the point.... besides who's point?  It's a point that I've decided to raise- which I think is more worthwhile to talk about than a silly fluke error, but that's just me...

Then again the whole USA -ENG match was overhyped to begin with... 

[Bakes]

Disagree...technique and concentration are not mutually exclusive nor is technique a fool-proof back up for mental lapses.  I agree that yuh drill technique over and over and over so that yuh don't need to focus as hard in order to execute what are the simplest of techniques- but if yuh mind switches off, yuh technique will or can go as well- that's why fatigue is factor that affects execution.  Concentration will always be an x-factor in execution even in the simplest execution.

Check out this quote from an article on the Ajax approach to training youths..."Jongkind had been working with this player for several weeks and said he had progressed to “consciously able but not subconsciously able” to run with the desired form, meaning that in the heat of competition, he reverted to his old form."

Consciously able meaning that when the player thinks about it he can execute it, but when his focus is gone so too is the execution.  Yes we all know that when concentration is lacking that form can deteriorate, but again... and this goes to something Mango Chow been saying, it's apparent that the poor technique is a part of his practice habits especially since others observed him scooping up the ball the same way earlier (I didn't see it, probably wouldn't have noticed it either).  If you get into the habit of doing things the right way then you don't have to think about them... you execute, lapse in concentration or not.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that all this fuss in the thread over what he did wrong technically is a waste unless one realistically thinks Green is that technically deficient, which I think is ludicrous- He's a professional at the highest level who will make that save 99 out of 100 times...it was a bad mistake- end of story...

Nah, you's ah fella does normally make a lot of sense but you on some high grade here.  Nobody saying the man "technically deficient" as a keeper (okay Mango Chow comes closest), but yes... he make a bad mistake... in displaying proper technique.  I dunno why you splitting hairs on that.  This isn't Paul Robinson having bad luck with the turf against Croatia, this was a fundamental lapse on Green's part.

Allyuh feel Capello and the coaching staff looking at that goal on repeat to figure out where Green went wrong technically?  It was a mere f*ck up that gave the headline makers some cheap shot opportunities (and there were some funny ones).  In the realm of football discussions, England has other knots to untie in my opinion. 

I dunno how you could say that what I'm saying is besides the point.... besides who's point?  It's a point that I've decided to raise- which I think is more worthwhile to talk about than a silly fluke error, but that's just me...

Then again the whole USA -ENG match was overhyped to begin with... 

It's besides the point of the discussion... maybe that's the problem.  You don't jump in the conversation late and vex with man fuh focusing on something you don't feel it important to you.  The other problems dogging England is a separate discussion entirely, whether overhyped or not, this issue legitimately dominates the talk because of the size of the blunder.  Simple.

[kicker]

High grade? lol Yuh misunderstanding what I said...I didn't say that anyone claimed that he's that technically deficient.  I said that in my opinion, what appears to be a fluke error is only worth the fuss if one really thinks he's really that technically deficient- which is ludicrous. (i.e. his lack of technical execution is a big deal worth pondering if he's really that sh*tty...otherwise it's just an unfortunate fluke)... and the hype surrounding this match DOES have an effect on how much attention this mistake has gotten...

Anyhow my bad, I eh mean tuh tell allyuh goalkeeping pundits not to analyze Green's technique and how many inches more to the right his chest and knee shoulda been tuh save the powder puff yadda yadda...was just raising what I thought was a more critical point regarding England based on observations of the match...and this thread is about the match so I thought it was fair game in this thread...

anyhow, on to the other matches...

[E-man]

people complaining about ESPN talking group C, but this thread is 7 pages long 

[Jah Gol]

[Bitter]

people complaining about ESPN talking group C, but this thread is 7 pages long 

Nah, the difference is that this thread is about the USA and by extension group 3.

We watching group D and them talking about who the Us might face in the next rounds.
I doh mind if you do a lil something, but this weekend had 6 pregame, 6 halftime and 6 post game shows and ALL of them talk more about the US than the teams actually playing. If you calling Slovenia vs Algeria, then at least in the play-by-play, stick with the teams on the pitch. Is not like they talking about Brazil or Italy, or anyone else as a comparison or reference.

Yes, is a US audience, but damn, you giving the teams that on the field short shrift. There was more than enough time in the 18 studio segments to talk about the USA team.

[FF]

steups...

dey forget to photoshop the reflection the table!


 

[E-man]

WTF