Ruud reveals breaking point over Fergie omission

[Peong]

Arright lewwe talk about Man U this season as opposed to last.

So this season Man U is better than last season.
I agree.
But the reason is not Van Nistelrooj leaving, or Fergie doing good work.
It's because of Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs.
Both were out for large chunks of the last season.
Man U had a makeshift midfield for large parts of last season.
This season both players are in and scoring goals.
Man U usually plays better offensively with those two on the field, no matter who is up front.

Oh and C. Ronaldo's emergence of course.
But I think that has more to do with him settling in than Van Nistelrooy's absence.

[Cantona007]

Arright lewwe talk about Man U this season as opposed to last.

So this season Man U is better than last season.
I agree.
But the reason is not Van Nistelrooj leaving, or Fergie doing good work.
It's because of Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs.
Both were out for large chunks of the last season.
Man U had a makeshift midfield for large parts of last season.
This season both players are in and scoring goals.
Man U usually plays better offensively with those two on the field, no matter who is up front.

Oh and C. Ronaldo's emergence of course.
But I think that has more to do with him settling in than Van Nistelrooy's absence.

Peong, you does make sense and  then...    Giggs and Scholes, yes but you can't be serious and say "oh by the way... Ronaldo". Come on man. Actually, RVNs absence has helped Ronaldo. Remember he and RVN could not see eye to eye (there were the well documented training ground bust-ups) and RVN had lost patience with Ronaldo style, believing that he was not getting the ball when he wanted it. Fergie sees Ronaldo as the future so...
BTW for every good game Giggs had this year, he had some stinkers too. Let me tell you the resons why I think the team is better.

1. Ronaldo. Talk done
2. with no RVN, there is no single focus of attack. with him in the team (without someone like Becks to deliver the ball) you saw his real "limitations" (if you can call such a goal-scorer "limited"). The fact is, that with Rooney, Saha, CR7 and Giggs up front, the quality of the offensive play has improved n-fold; more "pass and move" more playing the "United way"
The RVN factor is borne out by the distributed nature of the goalscoring chores (even Park Ji Sung is scoring) and the fact that the team is just plain scoring more goals than last year.
3. giggs and Scholes. Yes, but see above about Giggs
4. Less playing time for Fletcher, Fergie's illegitimate son (and other goats like him). See above points about more playing time for Giggs and Scholes
5. The defense. Rio falling asleep less often; Vidic and Evra (we could write a thesis on Evra's impact)
6. Finally; Lord Ferg himself. Fact is this year there has been more 4-4-2 than last year and the team has prospered. Also, another lesser manager with Ronaldo's talents might not have given him the freedom and SUPPORT to express himself. Ronaldo dives and playacts less this year. This is (in part) due to Fergie's influence. Give credit where it is due.

there are, of course other reasons, but these are (IMHO) these are the main ones. You could (justifiably) criticize SAF for a lot of things, but over 20+ years you have to admit that he has gotten more right than wrong, and in the case of RVN, the evidence so far, is  that he has gotten it right.

[Peong]

Cantona, 5 of your 6 pts are possible WITH OR WITHOUT RVN in the team.

Ronaldo matured, Giggs and Scholes not injured, the defense is better, Ferg get his tactics right, Carrick (new signing) better than Fletcher.

Another thing you overlooking is that Man U's position is not only a result of their own actions.
Chelsea are not as good as last year. 
In fact at this stage last season, Chelsea were 6 pts better than they are this season.

All these are factors are exclusive of RVN's absence that contribute to Man U's current position.
Man U doing better this year is not a consequence of RVN's departure.

Consider what would have happened if all these other circumstances with RVN in the team.
Would Man U be in the same position?  Lower?

So no, the decision on RVN is not been justified by Man U's current position.

Your stance is purely sentimental, not objective or scientific at all.

But that is how yall are.

[Filho]

Consider what would have happened if all these other circumstances with RVN in the team.
Would Man U be in the same position?  Lower?

So no, the decision on RVN is not been justified by Man U's current position.

Your stance is purely sentimental, not objective or scientific at all.

But that is how yall are.

scientific? u are have a laugh. and your arrogance is astounding. science has nothing to do with this. cantona's points are quite analytical and objective. u have good points as well. in the end it is all hypothetical and we are putting forth nothing but our own theories. Look at your last post? You ask a couple of unanswerable questions and then pretend to have a definitive answer. I don't see to much objectivity in that post and u come of more sentimental than anyone else. We have no idea if ManU would be better off with or without Ruud. But there is ONE fact. ManU has improved this season. All we can do is analyze the reasons why we think that is the case. Some of us add the absence of RVN as part of the equation and have given our reasons for believing that to be the case....u clealry think otherwise. Leave it at that and resist the petty urge to insult those who don't agree with you.

[Peong]

None of the Man U fans who post in this thread are objective.
Not one.
And none of yall realize it either.

I find allyuh funny thaz all.

Oh yeh, the reason I ask the unanswerable question is because Cantona didn't take that into consideration.
None of yall talk about Chelsea's form this year either. 

Objective.
 

[Filho]

None of the Man U fans who post in this thread are objective.
Not one.
And none of yall realize it either.

I find allyuh funny thaz all.

Oh yeh, the reason I ask the unanswerable question is because Cantona didn't take that into consideration.
None of yall talk about Chelsea's form this year either. 

Objective.
 

except..I'm not a ManU fan....nor am I a Man U hater. I also suspect that you are confusing objectivity with throroughness. Just becuz someone did not mention a  topic that u find relevant does not mean they are not objective. In any case..it's a bit dumb to ask those questions because they are the basis for the entire little debate. Everyone has taken them into consideration (it's really just 1 question poased as a 2parter anyway) or else you could not even be part of htsi discussion. And there is no definitive answer..so my point is you contributed nothing with that post. That you decided to label all everyone who had a different view from you a ManU fan and incapable of being objective and also incapable of realizing it shows you don't know how to deal with conflicting ideas. If you really thought about it, there is no right or wrong here. No need to be so dismissive. there is absolutely no more objectivity in anything you have said than what anyone else has. IN fact, all your repsonses sound like u have a preconceived bias against Alex Fergusson, or you really like RvN. As to your point about the current champs.....Chelsea's form is not that relevant to the topic. It would have some pyschological impact on ManU if Chelsea were higher in the league...but Chelsea and ManU have only met once this season in the league..even if Chelsea had beaten United instead of tied, Manu would have one less point than they do and their play would probably be the same - both consitituting an improvement over last season, whether Chelsea was above them in the table or not. anyway, the thread is a good one and some good views were exchanged. noone knows if ManU is better off without Ruud....maybe Fergie just wanted to try something different cuz the current formula wasn't working and Ruud was a casualty of a tactical makeover. Too bad, maybe if Ruud didn't act so entitled he would be starting for ManU (and Holland) all now.

[Peong]

noone knows if ManU is better off without Ruud..

That's exactly my point.
Contra to what Cantona was sayin.

[Filho]

noone knows if ManU is better off without Ruud..

That's exactly my point.
Contra to what Cantona was sayin.

Nope..that was not your point. Or at least you did not express that. You were pretty adamant that manU is not better without Ruud and that everyone else was too emotional and incapable of objectivity. U even asked the question and answered a definitive 'no'. And u cannot accuse Cantona for saying the contrary. He made it clear that he was just putting forth his theory..his opinion. That implies that he does not know if it is true, but based on his observations..he thinks Ruud's departure, along with a number of other reasons contribute to ManU's improvement. In other words...Cantona implicitly agrees that noone knows for sure...U hoewever did not. Quite the opposite of what u are claiming. but the back track was a nice try   

Anyhow, in case u don't believe what I am saying, just recall the last post Cantona sent to you....

......BTW for every good game Giggs had this year, he had some stinkers too. Let me tell you the resons why I think the team is better........

.......there are, of course other reasons, but these are (IMHO) these are the main ones.

so..u were saying?

[Cantona007]

Peong, we are beating this to death and while I actually enjoyed exchanges with you, we will have to agree to disagree.
Now, you are saying that all the ManU fans are not objective, are sentimental etc... Don't confuse loyalty with blind loyalty. Yes, I am "biased" towards ManU; I'm a fan and (while I don't know you personally) I suspect that I have been a fan longer than you have been on this earth. I nail my colours to the mast with no apologies, but be clear, I am more than capable of laying that aside for sound analysis.
You mention the form of Chelsea, but really why is this relevant? The debate had meandered into a discussion of "Why are ManU better this year", and this is what I attempted to answer. Surely the form of United on the pitch has nothing to do with Chelsea's woes (and I know quite a few teams could do with their "troubles"). Can you apply the same logic to the sudden good form of Arsenal? Is that as a result of Chelsea's troubles or does this apply only to United?
No one can know for certain that RVN's absence is the cause of United's good form, but I think I have made a case that this is a strong contributing factor, along with the others that I mentioned.
It's time to come out of the closet and just admit that you are an ABU and that you dislike Lord Ferg.  Bias is OK... I admit mine.
Anyways... cheers and support a good team for a change (couldn't resist).

[Peong]

Filho, I really should not have to clarify or paraphrase anything I said.
You real misinterpreting things that I sayin.
I don't have to give a mission statement for my stance.
I never said Cantona was not giving his opinion.
Every single post in this thread has some opinion in it, that is painfully obvious.
And you really misinterpret my question and answer.

Cantona, I mentioned Chelsea's form because it has something to do with Man U's table position.

It makes no sense for me to make a post in English and then have to explain the post, so I think I done.

Enjoy your 9 pt lead.

[Filho]

Filho, I really should not have to clarify or paraphrase anything I said.
You real misinterpreting things that I sayin.
I don't have to give a mission statement for my stance.
I never said Cantona was not giving his opinion.
Every single post in this thread has some opinion in it, that is painfully obvious.
And you really misinterpret my question and answer.

Cantona, I mentioned Chelsea's form because it has something to do with Man U's table position.

It makes no sense for me to make a post in English and then have to explain the post, so I think I done.

Enjoy your 9 pt lead.

doh study it....seems like misinterpretation all around then. easy when u consider u trying to express yourself in x words or less. time to let this one die a merciful death
respect