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Author Topic: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.  (Read 19584 times)

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Offline Tallman

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Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« on: July 10, 2007, 03:10:48 PM »
Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
By: Shaun Fuentes (TTFF).


In light of winning a court case against Trinidad and Tobago World Cup team goalkeeper Kelvin Jack, agent Mike Berry’s choice of words suggests that he still recognizes the current Gillingham custodian in good stead as a he wished him the best of luck in his future appearances in goal.
Berry revealed that he ended up victorious in a court matter with Jack. Berry, who served as Jack’s agent in the past, revealed on Thursday that he received judgment against Jack for outstanding fees and was also  awarded costs.
Berry gave an account of the matter via a statement, adding “After reneging on paying me his contractual fees due under the terms of his contract and joining another agent before the 2006 WC without even having the courtesy or guts to inform me even though he knew I was working hard on his behalf to secure him a new club he left me no option but to take him to court for settlement contrary to a report by reporter (Lasana) Liburd that he was taking me to court."
“Although I was initially reluctant to sue him my offers to negotiate were all ignored so I instructed my lawyer to deal with it. To my amazement his defence for not paying was that he thought my fee was too high and also the fact that I received a fee from Dundee for organising and advising on his Work Permit was wrong!!
“However he was kind enough to inform me that he did not have a "bad word" to say about me and that he had been more than happy with my services and support throughout and thanked me for all my help.
“After the case has dragged on for the last year or so I was finally awarded judgment and costs this week and his case was thrown out by a judge at the hearing stage and did not even reach a trial format as there was no substance to his claim. Maybe he will now consider changing lawyers as well.
“What saddens me particularly about this situation is that I gave Kelvin my usual total support for 2 years and stood by him through real tough times when he failed to impress at his initial trials were he failed to impress or his old handlers were asking for unrealistic fees and stuck by him.
Kelvin was absolutely delighted (on the Dundee deal) and I was so pleased for him also. Without that opportunity he would probably have gone back to Jabloteh.
“These days I see that Kelvin is heavily involved in establishing a players union and informing the media and his potential union members to be careful of unethical agents which is very good advice and I also note that he is compiling a list of ethical agents for the new union. After 18 successful work permits for T&T nationals in the last 9 years and advising, motivating and guiding my clients to success I expect to be on the top of that list and I am rather surprised that nobody has contacted me so far to tap into my wealth of experience apart from Shaka who is in constant touch and is a fine principled man who I respect totally. Although I notice there are a lot of "waggonist" advisers these days doing a lot of talking but not much action.
“In the meantime I will continue to offer my services to any young talented Trini footballer who is looking for an agent with principles, ethics and a genuine enthusiasm to help T&T football develop and prosper and to look after my clients best interests at all times. In spite of Kelvin’s lack of loyalty and attack on my good name recently I do wish him well during his current troubled times and hope to see him back on the pitch soon making more saves like the unforgettable last minute "miracle "in Bahrain."
Jack meantime says he is set to regain training with Gillingham this week as the club begins its preseason ahead of the upcoming season. The former CL Financial San Juan Jabloteh played in T&T's 2-0 loss to Paraguay in Germany and was credited for a series of vital stops between the sticks for the "Soca Warriors" during its qualifying campaign.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 10:34:36 AM by Flex »
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Offline Mr Mc

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 03:41:28 PM »
ammm who give him clearance to use the word waggonist without proper reference!!!!

Offline weary1969

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 04:19:25 PM »
Hard luck dey Kelvin but he go think twice b4 he tief somebody else
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Offline FLi !

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 06:27:01 PM »

there's some misinformation/propaganda in this article, but mark my words what is in the dark will come to light.......

Watch this space!
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Offline dreamer

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 06:33:55 PM »

there's some misinformation/propaganda in this article, but mark my words what is in the dark will come to light.......

Watch this space!

 :waiting: :waiting: :waiting: ...........  :thinking:  Interesting....
Supportin' de Warriors right tru.

Offline Sam

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 06:51:23 PM »
More ammo for Jack Warner. Berry, take my advice, get off the Jack Warner bandwaggon now, remember I told you so as its only a matter of time he betray you too. Jack Warner have no friends and keep no friends. He is a business man and nothing more or less.

You helped our players and you work for your money, but dont pick sides. Keep it real.

Lets see if Lasana can find some dirt on this. As I remember he said Kelvin was the one suing Berry. I know that's what Kelvin told Lasana, so you cant really blame the messenger. I hope Lasana dont give up and keep the fire burning on Jack Warner.

So much politics in T&T football and men behind the scenes just loving it to prove a point and in the end, no body win, just some people pockets stay fat.

Jack Warner, if you read this, at some point in time you will understand money is not everything. Them players work their asses off, its only fair they get something, maybe they can give back something too, but you guys sit down and talk..... all this court battle making T&T look like a dam soap opra team.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 06:56:28 PM by Flex »
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Offline weary1969

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 08:21:58 PM »
Sam

th egood book says th eluv of mone is the root of all evil so u undersatnd why Jack evil. How much money he want?
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 10:32:08 PM »

there's some misinformation/propaganda in this article, but mark my words what is in the dark will come to light.......

Watch this space!
While he has my sentiments (based solely on his account)...I ent feeling the self-promotion.  He about tuh dislocate he facking elbow from patting heself on he back.

It have another fella doing that too right now involving one ah de Warriors...but I ent saying nutten, I doh want to mess up nobody 'feel-good' story.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2007, 03:04:40 AM »

there's some misinformation/propaganda in this article, but mark my words what is in the dark will come to light.......

Watch this space!

 :waiting: :waiting: :waiting: ...........  :thinking:  Interesting....

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Offline trineeborne

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2007, 12:35:08 PM »
Again again T&T what more do i have to say about my country Mike Berry in my opinion if thats OK for me to have one without little people jumping down my throat, has been a great help and back bone for alot of our top players in the UK, so the hell what if he makes agreements with the players to receive a small fee it's an agreement between him and his players we don't know the relantionship he has with them and we as trinis know very well that we not working for free, man cannot live by bread alone and I'm sure he has a family to feed, no one is saying thank you Mike for how far you have brought our boys who the hell helps them to get work permit etc Mike Berry so stop fighting down the man and give him so gratitude you people are starting to  sound ungrateful, we don't know the full story this article needs to be in the newspaper so that the people of T&T could know what is going on and just for the ones who don't like my reply yet again you know what you can do if you don't ask i will gladly tell you.    THANK YOU MIKE BERRY FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE FOR T&T FOOTBALLERS.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2007, 01:09:57 PM »

This went to ordinary court  ???

I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't over.

Offline weary1969

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2007, 02:00:53 PM »
So because he get contracts 4 dem he could rob them blind.
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 03:43:29 AM »
So because he get contracts 4 dem he could rob them blind.

No he is not know the facts kelvin just did not want to pay while all the others did he want to wrong and strong you made an agreement stick to it.

Offline Star Child

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 05:49:18 AM »
No one jumping on Berry, Some just think he should distance himself from the TTFF more so Jack Wanrer. Berry did help many of our players and like it or not, he helped even if it cost them the man still help and our players should be grateful !!!!

Everyone works for a living, so Berry deserve to make a few dollars on the side. We just hope he have petti at times with the few poorer ones who cant afford the pay the full whistle. But big respect for Berry at least he got them a contract, many agents would have failed !!!!! Berry accomplished !!!!

Kelvin Jack is right to stand up but he should do it in a better way as Berry was the one who got him going in the first place. That suppose to sit down like big men and discuss matters.... not end up in court.

PS: T&T is not a back ward country and Kelvin Jack should make sure he guide the young ones coming up in the right direction...... many agents take us for granted because we are a small country..... but sometimes we have to pay the price in order to be successful....... hope to see Ian Cox or Ronnie Mauge become an agent one day so they can help our local guys.....
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 05:58:05 AM by Flex »

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 06:04:28 AM »
So because he get contracts 4 dem he could rob them blind.

No he is not know the facts kelvin just did not want to pay while all the others did he want to wrong and strong you made an agreement stick to it.

Trineeborne, will all due respect, you have NO IDEA what agreement was reached and the facts as to what happened, so you comments are very much uninformed.

Kelvin Jack is right to stand up but he should do it in a better way as Berry was the one who got him going in the first place. That suppose to sit down like big men and discuss matters.... not end up in court.


It is Berry who brought the action against him in Court, Kelvin didn't decide to go to Court. Again very ill informed of the facts.
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Offline trineeborne

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 06:47:44 AM »
No one jumping on Berry, Some just think he should distance himself from the TTFF more so Jack Wanrer. Berry did help many of our players and like it or not, he helped even if it cost them the man still help and our players should be grateful !!!!

Everyone works for a living, so Berry deserve to make a few dollars on the side. We just hope he have petti at times with the few poorer ones who cant afford the pay the full whistle. But big respect for Berry at least he got them a contract, many agents would have failed !!!!! Berry accomplished !!!!

Kelvin Jack is right to stand up but he should do it in a better way as Berry was the one who got him going in the first place. That suppose to sit down like big men and discuss matters.... not end up in court.

PS: T&T is not a back ward country and Kelvin Jack should make sure he guide the young ones coming up in the right direction...... many agents take us for granted because we are a small country..... but sometimes we have to pay the price in order to be successful....... hope to see Ian Cox or Ronnie Mauge become an agent one day so they can help our local guys.....

Well said and let me point one thing out, the matter was discussed between them but Kelvin did not want to agree with Berry's terms to pay in installments so he left him no choice but to take the matter to court so you see kelvin is not a man he is a child i hope he learned a lesson never bite the hand that feeds of fed you.

Offline trineeborne

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 06:58:43 AM »
So because he get contracts 4 dem he could rob them blind.

No he is not know the facts kelvin just did not want to pay while all the others did he want to wrong and strong you made an agreement stick to it.

Trineeborne, will all due respect, you have NO IDEA what agreement was reached and the facts as to what happened, so you comments are very much uninformed.

Well let me inform you i am 100% sure I'm more informed than you and you don't want to test my level of information ok, anyway like i said before Kelvin and Mike sat down and a settlement was brought to the table but yuh boy Kelvin turned it down and i don't give mike wrong for taking him to  court you should know if you are a trini born that people get their ASS water wash for owing their brother $10 far less for thousands, a contract was signed at the beginning and Kelvin had a RIGHT to stick to the contract this is not T&T this is the UK yuh playing with big dogs now if you can't handle the heat go back home he is not the first to have to pay his agent and he won't be the last even if you go to an agency in the UK to get a job they are the ones getting the job for you and when you get paid they take a portion so who the hell is Kelvin Jack that he shouldn't pay the boy makes me sick.

Kelvin Jack is right to stand up but he should do it in a better way as Berry was the one who got him going in the first place. That suppose to sit down like big men and discuss matters.... not end up in court.


It is Berry who brought the action against him in Court, Kelvin didn't decide to go to Court. Again very ill informed of the facts.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 07:04:28 AM »

trineeborne, who are u? who do u represent? what's ur motivation? you have come out of no where with a hand full of posts to attack one of our soca warriors.

i'm curious to find out who are u a messenger for
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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2007, 09:22:12 AM »
No one jumping on Berry, Some just think he should distance himself from the TTFF more so Jack Wanrer. Berry did help many of our players and like it or not, he helped even if it cost them the man still help and our players should be grateful !!!!

Everyone works for a living, so Berry deserve to make a few dollars on the side. We just hope he have petti at times with the few poorer ones who cant afford the pay the full whistle. But big respect for Berry at least he got them a contract, many agents would have failed !!!!! Berry accomplished !!!!

Kelvin Jack is right to stand up but he should do it in a better way as Berry was the one who got him going in the first place. That suppose to sit down like big men and discuss matters.... not end up in court.

PS: T&T is not a back ward country and Kelvin Jack should make sure he guide the young ones coming up in the right direction...... many agents take us for granted because we are a small country..... but sometimes we have to pay the price in order to be successful....... hope to see Ian Cox or Ronnie Mauge become an agent one day so they can help our local guys.....

That is level shit right there.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2007, 09:26:56 AM »
Well let me inform you i am 100% sure I'm more informed than you and you don't want to test my level of information ok, anyway like i said before Kelvin and Mike sat down and a settlement was brought to the table but yuh boy Kelvin turned it down and i don't give mike wrong for taking him to  court you should know if you are a trini born that people get their ASS water wash for owing their brother $10 far less for thousands, a contract was signed at the beginning and Kelvin had a RIGHT to stick to the contract this is not T&T this is the UK yuh playing with big dogs now if you can't handle the heat go back home he is not the first to have to pay his agent and he won't be the last even if you go to an agency in the UK to get a job they are the ones getting the job for you and when you get paid they take a portion so who the hell is Kelvin Jack that he shouldn't pay the boy makes me sick.

Who the fack are you and what makes you so certain that the side of the story you promoting is anywhere near the 'truth'?  While I agree that once an agreement is made then it needs to be adhered to, your blatant advocating on the behalf of Berry on the other hand leads one to conclude that you are probably:

a) Mike Berry
b) Mike Berry's woman
c) Mike Berry's jockey shorts...no other way to explain why yuh all up he ass like that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 09:28:53 AM by Bake n Shark »

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2007, 10:21:26 AM »

Well let me inform you i am 100% sure I'm more informed than you and you don't want to test my level of information ok, anyway like i said before Kelvin and Mike sat down and a settlement was brought to the table but yuh boy Kelvin turned it down and i don't give mike wrong for taking him to  court you should know if you are a trini born that people get their ASS water wash for owing their brother $10 far less for thousands, a contract was signed at the beginning and Kelvin had a RIGHT to stick to the contract this is not T&T this is the UK yuh playing with big dogs now if you can't handle the heat go back home he is not the first to have to pay his agent and he won't be the last even if you go to an agency in the UK to get a job they are the ones getting the job for you and when you get paid they take a portion so who the hell is Kelvin Jack that he shouldn't pay the boy makes me sick.

Who the fack are you and what makes you so certain that the side of the story you promoting is anywhere near the 'truth'?  While I agree that once an agreement is made then it needs to be adhered to, your blatant advocating on the behalf of Berry on the other hand leads one to conclude that you are probably:

a) Mike Berry
b) Mike Berry's woman
c) Mike Berry's jockey shorts...no other way to explain why yuh all up he ass like that.

Bake & Shark, I am very much inclined to believe it is the latter
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Offline trineeborne

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2007, 10:26:47 AM »

trineeborne, who are u? who do u represent? what's ur motivation? you have come out of no where with a hand full of posts to attack one of our soca warriors.

i'm curious to find out who are u a messenger for
A voice of truth thats all you need to know.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2007, 10:30:41 AM »
Well let me inform you i am 100% sure I'm more informed than you and you don't want to test my level of information ok, anyway like i said before Kelvin and Mike sat down and a settlement was brought to the table but yuh boy Kelvin turned it down and i don't give mike wrong for taking him to  court you should know if you are a trini born that people get their ASS water wash for owing their brother $10 far less for thousands, a contract was signed at the beginning and Kelvin had a RIGHT to stick to the contract this is not T&T this is the UK yuh playing with big dogs now if you can't handle the heat go back home he is not the first to have to pay his agent and he won't be the last even if you go to an agency in the UK to get a job they are the ones getting the job for you and when you get paid they take a portion so who the hell is Kelvin Jack that he shouldn't pay the boy makes me sick.
:rotfl:Well if i am his woman at least he will be getting some who knows about you if you get [IDIOT] any i'm not mad at you the truth always hurts the guilty ones.

Who the fack are you and what makes you so certain that the side of the story you promoting is anywhere near the 'truth'?  While I agree that once an agreement is made then it needs to be adhered to, your blatant advocating on the behalf of Berry on the other hand leads one to conclude that you are probably:

a) Mike Berry
b) Mike Berry's woman
c) Mike Berry's jockey shorts...no other way to explain why yuh all up he ass like that.

Offline Sando

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2007, 10:31:02 AM »
We need to tone down fellas. Berry is not all that bad. He didn't put a gun by no ones head for their money, if players find it was to expensive they could have gone to someone else. Players who have been on the outside a while now (Yorke, John, Latapy etc) could have guided the ones that came after in that department. If Berry charges 10% then thats his fee, whether you like it or not once you sign that contract you have to honor it.

Again, lets hope Kelvin Jack learn from this and pass on his advice to the younger ones coming up. Find cheaper agents, it may not always be good because at least Berry got the clubs to sign players, so sometimes you have to pay for good service.

I would rather pay 10% and be guarantee a club than pay 5% and remain un-certain.

I still hope Berry take it easy on the less fortunate ones. He claim to be a born again Trini, now lets wait and see. People like Josh Johnson makes minimum wages and it might be hard for him to pay 10% whether he mind or not...... the fee should be adjustable. He did make a lot of money on our players already and I am sure he isn't in a bad position where he cant adjust his price to suit. But thats his choice, he owes us nothing.

My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 10:40:11 AM by Flex »

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2007, 10:38:46 AM »
We need to tone down fellas. Berry is not all that bad. He didn't put a gun by no ones head for their money, if players find it was to expensive they could have gone to someone else. Players who have been on the outside a while now (Yorke, John, Latapy etc) could have guided the ones that came after in that department. If Berry charges 10% then thats his fee, whether you like it or not once you sign that contract you have to honor it.

Again, lets hope Kelvin Jack learn from this and pass on his advice to the younger ones coming up. Find cheaper agents, it may not always be good because at least Berry got the clubs to sign players, so sometimes you have to pay for good service.

I would rather pay 10% and be guarantee a club than pay 5% and remain un-certain.

I still hope Berry take it easy on the less fortunate ones. He claim to be a born again Trini, now lets wait and see. People like Josh Johnson makes minimum wages and it might be hard for him to pay 10% whether he mind or not...... the fee should be adjustable. He did make a lot of money on our players already and I am sure he isn't in a bad position where he cant adjust his price to suit. But thats his choice, he owes us nothing.

My 2 cents.
And let me tell you something Sando he does adjust his price to suit he is a very fair man ask yourself if he charges all his players why is Kelvin Jack the only one to have a problem with it why did'nt any of the others come out answer that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 10:40:48 AM by Flex »

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 10:52:11 AM »
mike Berry...ah mean trinee borne as yuh prefer to call yuhself, yuh cud post all yuh want, but use some punctuation please!


Bless!!!
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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2007, 11:02:43 AM »
mike Berry...ah mean trinee borne as yuh prefer to call yuhself, yuh cud post all yuh want, but use some punctuation please!


Bless!!!
PLEASE MY ASS don't worry how i write is what ah write and believe what you want you cannot handle the fact that somebody other than mike berry knows the whole truth ha you people are hopeless  :rotfl:

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2007, 11:19:49 AM »
:rotfl:Well if i am his woman at least he will be getting some who knows about you if you get [IDIOT] any i'm not mad at you the truth always hurts the guilty ones.
The issue of my sexual activity has as much bearing on my ability to think clearly, as has your mouth to do with your asshole...and the confusion that surrounds the two.  I'm inclined to believe this to be the case simply on account of the amount of shit you've been spewing in your brief sojourn on the site.  I have no dog in this particular fight, so there's nothing that I need to feel in any form "guilty" of.

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2007, 01:08:10 PM »
:rotfl:Well if i am his woman at least he will be getting some who knows about you if you get [IDIOT] any i'm not mad at you the truth always hurts the guilty ones.
The issue of my sexual activity has as much bearing on my ability to think clearly, as has your mouth to do with your asshole...and the confusion that surrounds the two.  I'm inclined to believe this to be the case simply on account of the amount of shit you've been spewing in your brief sojourn on the site.  I have no dog in this particular fight, so there's nothing that I need to feel in any form "guilty" of.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:you arsehole u don't scare me YOUR BARK IS BIGGER THAN YOUR BITE you sound upset don't give if you can't take, i'm done with you Bark & Shark you're beneath me,
PS:the way he has snapped T&T proves he's not getting any :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Berry wins court matter over "Warrior" Jack.
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2007, 08:20:59 AM »
We need to tone down fellas. Berry is not all that bad. He didn't put a gun by no ones head for their money, if players find it was to expensive they could have gone to someone else. Players who have been on the outside a while now (Yorke, John, Latapy etc) could have guided the ones that came after in that department. If Berry charges 10% then thats his fee, whether you like it or not once you sign that contract you have to honor it.

Again, lets hope Kelvin Jack learn from this and pass on his advice to the younger ones coming up. Find cheaper agents, it may not always be good because at least Berry got the clubs to sign players, so sometimes you have to pay for good service.

I would rather pay 10% and be guarantee a club than pay 5% and remain un-certain.

I still hope Berry take it easy on the less fortunate ones. He claim to be a born again Trini, now lets wait and see. People like Josh Johnson makes minimum wages and it might be hard for him to pay 10% whether he mind or not...... the fee should be adjustable. He did make a lot of money on our players already and I am sure he isn't in a bad position where he cant adjust his price to suit. But thats his choice, he owes us nothing.

My 2 cents.

You talk good Sando, but as I said in a next post, Berry may not be able to pull of a 10% by the typical UK man.

I wonder what other fees agent get apart form the amount they charge (10% in Berry's case) of a player transfer fee. Seems this is a big business in Europe, imagine how much Africans, South Americans, Caribbean players and Asians are being exploited each day simply because they do not know about these stuff. If Berry made 90 thousands pounds just for Carlos Edwards then who needs football as a career, you better of becoming an agent....

I believe Dwight Yorke and Russell Latapy is very selfish, they can help (advise) alot of T&T youth players on certain matters that goes on in the UK and point them in the right direction. These men needs to be more involved in the future of T&T, they are role models and legends, people will listen... forget the TTFF, they should just do that as a contribution to the youths in T&T, have a seminar and give a speech, educate the youths - man.....

Hopefully FPATT will do these sort of things.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2007, 08:25:50 AM by Sam »
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