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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: dcs on February 24, 2008, 10:54:57 AM

Title: Gangs News Thread
Post by: dcs on February 24, 2008, 10:54:57 AM
Life in Picton
by
Ira Mathur   www.iramathur.org
Trinidad Guardian
Sunday 24th February, 2008


This is part two of a first-person account from a Picton resident, “Andy,” based on an interview.

“I grew up with a single parent, without supervision, absent teachers. Most of us in Picton didn’t get past primary or secondary school.

“There are ten gangs in my small area of Picton, with about 30 members each, some as young as 13. There is plenty pressure to join. A relative even put a gun to my head to join.

“They will shoot you, walk away and not think twice. Gangs give them rank in a world where they can’t earn anything past minimum wage like I do with a regular job.

“They feel better to have people afraid of you than pity you for being illiterate and poor.

“They claim to be Muslims. They are setting up makeshift mosques in communities. One time I was considering accepting Islam.

“I look at Muslims in my area. Muslims shooting Muslims, murdering Muslims. They ask you to join in a way that is more like a threat.

“I ask myself ‘if these people claim to be serving Allah in the respectable manner that they speak of, why they would threaten another brother?’

“If I choose to be a Christian, don’t I have that freedom?

“Men come up to men, tell them: ‘Come over.’ They go in the mosque with rubber slippers and come out in full Muslim garb, with money and guns: AKs, 380s, 357s as gangsters.

“They become somebody. But inside, they are illiterate little boys.

“The gang leaders have the knowledge. One or two have up to seven O-level passes. They use knowledge on those who will be dependent on them.

“They go to URP head office, get the contract. They call four or five gangs. Put down your name for ten days in the office where they are operating.

“Everybody signs the sheet. The contractor will say: ‘You foreman, you checker,’ you this or that. They are running ghost gangs, register, but no work is being done.

“They don’t even come out. When the fortnight comes, the contractor meets you by the bank and you hand him your money, because you didn’t work for it.

“If he feels to give you a $100 he will give a $100. If you grumble you will end up in a grave.

“The army and police presence is totally ineffective. The timing is off. Police like to gallery, roll in with their new SUVs, to ‘lock down’ a community for six or eight hours.

“They leave at about two or three in the morning, and we are back to square one. As the police pass, the gang members come out.

“Two, three in the morning you hear ‘boom, boom, boom.’

“Do the police come back by five am and try to keep the peace till the next day? No. They will drive past, breeze through.

“On their way out they would pick up a man smoking a joint. By the rough manner they handle him you would swear he is the most dangerous criminal; that he has the biggest guns.

“These guys they held last week are not involved in criminal activity. They didn’t hold the murderers, bandits or kidnappers, nor the drug dealers or the gun toters.

“They haven’t solved a single crime. The police want these people to kill out one another. One less to hunt.

“The situation is worsening; crimes are not being solved not just in Laventille, but throughout the country.

“You are not hearing of arrests. You are hearing about witnesses being shot dead.

“After that, Martin Joseph tells us he ‘underestimated crime’ and he was re-appointed National Security Minister for that.

“You say you are a caring government, and what you care about is getting rich. The people in power are eagerly playing with the money, while poor people are being run out of their slums because of guns and gangs.”

Next week: The anatomy of a gang.

www.iramathur.org
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on February 24, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
'Death wish' gang out to settle scores (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=21368.0)
'Crock' shot dead (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=33676.0)
Laventille says the community leaders have put down their guns. (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=23102.0)
COPS KILL 4- Gang members slain in shootout (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=24868.0)
Are gangsters playing dead to catch corbeaux alive? (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=21165.0)
Unit Gang Leader Fresh shot (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=30893.0)
TIME TO WAKE UP DE BOARD (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=13068.msg128800#msg128800)
WE HAVE FAILED (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=32994.msg383180#msg383180)

It have plenty more info out there so if I miss anything to add to this list just post the link or title...or better yet the hyperlinked title.

--------------
added Feb 25th

POLICE moved - Paul acts on gangsters' threats to officers (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161283770)
History of criminals in URP - Big contracts for gangsters (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=34088.0)
State witness refuses to testify (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161283738)

------------
added Feb 27th
NO URP KILLINGS (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=34075.msg398478#msg398478)
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 24, 2008, 07:50:16 PM
See me, I dunce, me eh have no big education and ting yuh know, but dat fella REAL f**kING ARTICULATE FOR A MAN FROM PICTON WITHOUT more than a primary school education...ent/

steups.

That fella who write that article is full of shit and has NO JOURNALISTIC integrity.

Re-read that article, especially the parts in quotes...lol

If those are "Andy's" real comments that man is a college graduate..he have 7 o'levels at the least.

PUHLEEEZE!

That is de best spoken fella I ever encountered with his level of edumacation!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on February 24, 2008, 08:50:04 PM
The fellah said "Most of us in Picton didn’t get past primary or secondary school."

Considering MS. Mathur quoted the interview and HER only lines were "This is part two of a first-person account from a Picton resident, “Andy,” based on an interview." & "Next week: The anatomy of a gang."  I really question why you decide to be so defensive and attack the author when u clearly know nothing about HER or HER previous work  lol

(http://guardian.co.tt/ira.jpg)

Maybe you should go read HER past work because I never saw HER work as being unprofessional or biased....but go judge for yourself. I didn't always agree with HER but this article seem pretty straight forward...can't see what u want to dispute in it. 

Her Work by Category:
Children/Teenagers     Reviews (Book/Film)
Diaspora    Travel
Health Care    Trinidad Economy
International    Trinidad Politics
Profiles    Trinidad Society
Reflections    Women (http://www.iramathur.org/Category.htm)
Relationships
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 24, 2008, 09:21:29 PM
The fellah said "Most of us in Picton didn’t get past primary or secondary school."

Considering MS. Mathur quoted the interview and HER only lines were "This is part two of a first-person account from a Picton resident, “Andy,” based on an interview." & "Next week: The anatomy of a gang."  I really question why you decide to be so defensive and attack the author when u clearly know nothing about HER or HER previous work  lol

(http://guardian.co.tt/ira.jpg)

Maybe you should go read HER past work because I never saw HER work as being unprofessional or biased....but go judge for yourself. I didn't always agree with HER but this article seem pretty straight forward...can't see what u want to dispute in it. 

Her Work by Category:
Children/Teenagers     Reviews (Book/Film)
Diaspora    Travel
Health Care    Trinidad Economy
International    Trinidad Politics
Profiles    Trinidad Society
Reflections    Women (http://www.iramathur.org/Category.htm)
Relationships

Defensive, not at all, she have no influence over me, by beliefs..nutten!

I refer you to this quote in the beginning of the article.  Any reasonable thinking individual wpuld draw a similar conclusion to the one I drew.....except they are the ones looking for another angle..yuh know....an agenda?

[quote]This is part two of a first-person account from a Picton resident, “Andy,” based on an interview.

“I grew up with a single parent, without supervision, absent teachers. Most of us in Picton didn’t get past primary or secondary school.

“There are ten gangs in my small area of Picton, with about 30 members each, some as young as 13. There is plenty pressure to join. A relative even put a gun to my head to join.
Quote
[/color][/b][/i][/u]

Since I doh know how old "Andy" is, and ah relative did put ah gun to he head tuh join....ah sure it wasn't ah recent ting and assume dat it happen when he was ah youth....getting my angle on this bullshit story?

And de only "reason" yuh could agree with her and conclude that dis is legit is becasue yuh have axe tuh grind,  in other words it bashing a member of the Government.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on February 24, 2008, 09:32:59 PM

Yuh brilliant detective work has convinced me the article is a sham and the journalist has no integrity and decided to find a bogus person to do a make believe story like the New York Times and what was portrayed is the furthest from the truth...a total fabrication.

I have read her other articles so I think you are mistaken. And you still coming across like YOU have an axe to grind.  Maybe we own forumite who give his own account was lying too?

TIME TO WAKE UP DE BOARD (http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=13068.msg128800#msg128800)
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 24, 2008, 09:37:29 PM
yeah dat thread by Morvant was a shocking eye opener oui
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: just cool on February 24, 2008, 10:41:41 PM
See me, I dunce, me eh have no big education and ting yuh know, but dat fella REAL f**kING ARTICULATE FOR A MAN FROM PICTON WITHOUT more than a primary school education...ent/

steups.

That fella who write that article is full of shit and has NO JOURNALISTIC integrity.

Re-read that article, especially the parts in quotes...lol

If those are "Andy's" real comments that man is a college graduate..he have 7 o'levels at the least.PUHLEEEZE!

That is de best spoken fella I ever encountered with his level of edumacation!
TT my causin was in a gang up laventille, and lost his life in 01, he was totally illiterate even though he came here at a young age. he got dipped and went home and joined ah gang, his good friend in the gang called longs was an educated dude with 4 A levels under his belt, it have bright dudes in them gangs today bro. i still have three 2nd causins right now in gangs, and we speak on the regular. that youth seemed to be talking the real.                                 positive.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 24, 2008, 10:53:29 PM
See me, I dunce, me eh have no big education and ting yuh know, but dat fella REAL f**kING ARTICULATE FOR A MAN FROM PICTON WITHOUT more than a primary school education...ent/

steups.

That fella who write that article is full of shit and has NO JOURNALISTIC integrity.

Re-read that article, especially the parts in quotes...lol

If those are "Andy's" real comments that man is a college graduate..he have 7 o'levels at the least.PUHLEEEZE!

That is de best spoken fella I ever encountered with his level of edumacation!
TT my causin was in a gang up laventille, and lost his life in 01, he was totally illiterate even though he came here at a young age. he got dipped and went home and joined ah gang, his good friend in the gang called longs was an educated dude with 4 A levels under his belt, it have bright dudes in them gangs today bro. i still have three 2nd causins right now in gangs, and we speak on the regular. that youth seemed to be talking the real.                                 positive.

nutten can convince me that a gang member..or ex-gangster spoke that eloquently.  Not saying there eh gangs....but that story fishy as ah tin ah sardine!

re-read the opening lines of dat shit article and tell me that fella claims anything but a elementary school education.

besida even educated trinis at home dh put down staright english like dat....far less a gangster.

steups and 4 a levels eh mean yuh educated.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Andre on February 25, 2008, 08:42:34 AM
ms. mathur better watch she back before dem gangstas put a hit on she for writing this. in trinidad, anybody could find yuh house.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Tallman on February 25, 2008, 09:20:52 AM
in trinidad, anybody could find yuh house.
except de police.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: morvant on February 25, 2008, 09:41:06 AM
plenty things in the article true

what they say bout muslims is tru

what they say bout men waiting outside de bank and giving them $100 is shyt and everybody living in trini know what $100 could buy

point blank is that everybody know who the killers in they area is but dont say nuttin

every single man jack in trini know ah killer
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: JDB on February 25, 2008, 10:14:08 AM
TT forgive me if I missing something but you saying that you doubt the veracity because she chose to clean up the dialect and write the quotes in standard English?

I thought this was a common practice in local papers even in cases where you use quotes. Most times when you read an article that quotes witness testimony it is not in dialect form.

There are only a couple journalists who use dialect because it suits their style like Keith Smith or Pires and I am sure that even in these cases they “convert” it from the slang that the person uses to a more conventional form of Trini dialect.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 25, 2008, 10:26:57 AM
in trinidad, anybody could find yuh house.
except de police.
"allya could come and give we ah drop by allya?"
 ;D ;D
Title: History of criminals in URP
Post by: Trini _2026 on February 25, 2008, 10:46:59 AM
History of criminals in URP
Big contracts for gangsters

Darryl Heeralal dheeralal@trinidadexpress.com
Monday, February 25th 2008
 
  
FRIENDLY HANDSHAKE: Prime Minister Patrick Manning greets gang leader Sheldon "Crock" Scott with a friendly handshake during a pre-election walkabout in Laventille last year. -Photo: CURTIS CHASE

CONCERNED about criminal involvement in the Unemployment Relief Programme and the effect it is having on gang violence, a High Court judge criticised Government's inaction on Friday.

In freeing two men charged with one of the most brazen gang-related murders, Justice Anthony Carmona described as "delusional" and "irresponsible" statements an official had made that there were no criminal elements in the URP.

Carmona did not name the official.

However, former Local Government Rennie Dumas, when questioned on the issue in the run-up to last year's general election, went on record to say that there were no criminal elements in the URP.

Police statistics have shown that over 100 of the victims of gangland killings since 2002 were either URP supervisors, foremen, contractors or workmen.

Homicide detectives and officers from several intelligence units formed to monitor gangs have also said dozens more murders committed are related to fall-out from State-run special works projects.

Government involvement in hiring and awarding of contracts to known criminals has also been well documented over the last ten years.

Prime Minister Patrick Manning himself has had a history of dealing with people identified by police as criminals and gang leaders associated with the URP and other State-run projects.

Police, including former commissioner Hilton Guy, have also said that monies from the URP and other projects were being used to fund gang wars, murders and other "ghetto" crimes.

Gangland violence has fuelled this country's high murder rate and spun off into other crimes, such as drug trafficking, gun smuggling and kidnapping for ransom, police say.

Under Manning's PNM Government, several key crime figures identified by the police, including Mark Guerra, Kerwin "Fresh" Phillip, Sheldon "Crock" Scott, Glenroy "Abdul Malick" Charles and Salim "Small Salim" Rasheed, among others, have amassed millions through the URP and what was then the NHA refurbishing projects.

In 2002, Manning had secretly met with several known gang leaders and after one such meeting, backed down on a move to appoint ex-policemen to administer the URP, put there in the first place to clamp down on corruption.

Manning has never denied meeting with gang leaders.

Recently the Prime Minister noted in an interview that nearly all of the men he had met with have been murdered and police say all of those killings have been gang-related.

Manning's PNM, however, has not been the only party involved in URP-related corruption.

Under the UNC in 1999, councillor Hansraj Sumairsingh, chairman of the Mayaro/Rio Claro Regional Corporation, was murdered and the killing evidence showed it was linked to URP corruption.

Sumairsingh was killed overfall-out from the construction of basketball court and pavilion at Poole Valley, Rio Claro.

Former local government minister Dhanraj Singh was charged with the murder, but later freed in the High Court. Singh is also facing 26 fraud charges related to kick backs from URP and other State-run projects.

Sumairsingh is not the only councillor to have been murdered because of URP-related corruption.

In late 2006, Bert Allette, a PNM city councillor, was murdered in Belmont after raising objections about ghost gangs in a URP project, Homicide detectives say.

Incidentally, the man who was questioned about the murder and is still the number one suspect was recently awarded a $2 million Government project, sources from the police's gang intelligence unit say.

Recently, Selwyn "Robocop" Alexis, during a recent kidnapping trial, said in open court that he built houses for the then National Housing Authority under the UNC. No one from the Opposition ever denied the charge.

Based on police intelligence and records, the escalation in gangland violence and murders started in late 2001, early 2002.

Deputy Police Commissioner Gilbert Reyes has said that gang murders are mainly responsible for the country's high homicide rate.

Police records show that the increase in murders coincided with the appointment of Mark Guerra as national adviser to the URP. The post, which had never existed before then, was created for Guerra.

In September of 2002, one Government minister moved to stem the corruption in the URP by appointing members of the Flying Squad as programme supervisors.

But Manning reversed the decision after he met with several gang leaders, including Guerra and Phillip, at the Ambassador Hotel, Long Circular Road, St James.

Weeks later, when the violence exploded, Manning secretly met with gang leaders again at the same hotel and at the Rose Foundation in St James, to broker a peace deal.

Guy had said, based on police information then, that the URP and the NHA refurbishing projects were contributing to the gang violence and that most of the people involved in the murders were part of a Muslim organisation.

Late in 2002, Sean "Bill" Francis went public and said that ghost gangs in the URP and NHA projects were the main reasons behind gang violence in Laventille and Morvant.

Francis said while he was a programme coordinator in 1998/99, he got rid of over 7,000 "ghosts" in the Port of Spain region, an area controlled by Guerra.

Former PNM senator

Muhammad Shabaaz was at the side of Francis when he met Manning at the Rose Foundation, St James.

Shabaaz was soon after fired as the coordinator of the $250 million NHA refurbishing project, and in his place Cabinet appointed former murder accused David "Buffy" Millard, who held the post until he fled to Guyana.

In one public fiasco several "ghosts" were paid millions of State dollars. Names such as "Jennifer Lopez", "Serena Williams" and "Arnold Schwarzenegger" were paid for painting houses in east Port of Spain.

The Opposition had asked that the audited report of the project be laid in Parliament, but it was never done.

In the run-up to the elections of 2002, Jamaat al Muslimeen leader Imam Yasin Abu Bakr revealed that Government had started the paper work to hand over five acres of State lands adjoining the Mucurapo headquarters of the organisation to them. Manning pulled back under public pressure.

The murders continued in 2003 and it was around this time that Phillip and Charles started amassing their wealth after Guerra was murdered, police say.

Phillip was leader of the infamous G-Unit gang and Charles was the head of all the major criminals in west Port of Spain. At the time of his murder, Charles was described as a URP contractor worth $14 million.

Months before he was killed, Phillip was given a million-dollar Government contract to build a health centre at Oxford Street, Port of Spain. Phillip admitted to getting the contract during an interview with CNMG.

In 2004, Kirk Walker, a former coup maker, said he was illegally paid a URP cheque to keep him quiet after a gangster pulled a gun on him - this despite Walker's not having worked with the programme.

Walker was given the Government cheque for $710.30, dated December 20, 2004. The cheque, number U 00648168, was issued for work done in the Arima Region, Bertie Road Sanitation Project for the fortnight November 22 to December 3.

Then URP acting manager Uric Williams said he was aware of similar situations in that region, where people were being paid for work not performed.

During Abu Bakr's conspiracy to murder trial, State witness Brent Danglade said in open court that he was paid for not doing any work in the programme.

Under Singh, a unit was set up to investigate ghost gangs in the URP and has compiled several reports confirming the existence of it.

In 2004, the Ministry of Local Government started a programme to award URP contracts to gangsters if they gave up their guns, a Sunday Express expose reported.

Dumas, however, said he was not aware of such a programme.

Last year, detectives linked a wave of murders in Sea Lots, Port of Spain, to a URP contract awarded to a known criminal in the Production Avenue area.

Rasheed, who was given a URP contract to build drains at Seventh Avenue, Malick, was murdered and police said the death was related to fall-out from the contract.

Scott, whose murder sparked a wave of violence in Picton three weeks ago, was a contractor at the Beverly Hills apartments site.

Several other gang leaders and known criminals identified by the Inter Agency Task Force are also employed with the URP as either contractors, supervisors, foremen or normal workers, despite their involvement in murders, drug trafficking and kidnappings.

Police say as long as criminals benefit from State-run projects like the URP, gang violence will never stop, as corrupt monies from the special projects will continue to fund the killings and gangland violence.


What Justice Carmona said on Friday:


"Some person in authority had stated that there were no criminals in the URP. I dare say, in fact, that particular statement by the person in authority was highly delusional and totally irresponsible, because not only I, but my other brothers have made the observation time and time again of a lot of criminal activity taking place in the bowel of the URP and that is the stark reality.

"Based on matters coming before the courts in the last 18 months, I can tell you that in the bowels of the URP there is rank criminality and the authorities need to address this, you understand."

What Dumas said in an interview in 2005:

"I am saying that you will not find an individual or a group of individuals turning up and getting their cheques from us without working for it. I feel you will have serious difficulty in finding that.

"People might be employed with URP just as they could be employed anywhere else, but their major activity is outside URP. They are not using URP funds to fund kidnapping or fund drug trafficking. If you use their URP membership or the occasion of work in the URP to identify them, then you are stigmatising the URP. If it's a drug lord it's a drug lord, if it's a drug salesman, it's a drug salesman, if it's a kidnapper it's a kidnapper."


The progression of murders between 2001 and 2007;

2001 151

2002 171

2003 229

2004 260

2005 386

2006 371

2007 388
 
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 25, 2008, 11:26:11 AM
TT forgive me if I missing something but you saying that you doubt the veracity because she chose to clean up the dialect and write the quotes in standard English?

I thought this was a common practice in local papers even in cases where you use quotes. Most times when you read an article that quotes witness testimony it is not in dialect form.

There are only a couple journalists who use dialect because it suits their style like Keith Smith or Pires and I am sure that even in these cases they “convert” it from the slang that the person uses to a more conventional form of Trini dialect.


No journalists in T&T do NOT clean up a persons english!  that is not the way it is done.

Yuh mad or what?  basic high school english dat!  If yuh quoting someone, yuh quoting dem..yuh doh make nutten in standard english!  NUTTEN!

Point in case:

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news7.html

Quote
“I only hear groaning like somebody in pain and they could not answer,” Julien said.
  Yuh see any ckeaning up dey?

And what about here:

Quote
“The police from West End Station come in the next five minutes and take him to the hospital,” she added.
  Come, why not clean it up to say came?

Quote
“I tell my children and grandchildren to drop to the floor.

“The way how that sounded it was very powerful and fast,” Julien said.
  I tell?  why didnt the writer change it to I told my children and....

Quote
“Is a while something like this happen up here.
Is a while?  come on now...!

And from de express:  http://www.guardian.co.tt/news4.html

Quote
“But she came back in. Still she does be scared.
  Still she does be scared?  get my point?

Quote
“I'm not leaving. I does sell incense in town. If they have to come let them.”
all ah we does do something right?  proper english?  Nah she full ah shit.  I eh saying it eh have gangs, I jes questioning she conversation with "Andy."

JDB yuh dead wrong, I suggest yuh re-read dem articles in T&T papers, always full ah dialect bredda...she take real license dey!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Peong on February 25, 2008, 01:35:38 PM
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE5DA153FF932A15755C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
 Do Speakers Really Say What Is Between Quotation Marks?

Some exerpts:

"We believe that the material between quotation marks must be an absolutely literal rendition of what the quoted person said," said Allan M. Siegal, an assistant managing editor at The New York Times.

Time magazine is one of the few organizations that have a written set of rules, which appear in the Time Book on Reporting and Research. They state that grammar and spelling may be corrected but that it is a cardinal sin to add or delete a word or phrase that alters the meaning of a quotation.

"I think if everyone started publishing verbatim quotes, you would get the impression that the government was full of fools," said Michael Pollan, executive editor of Harper's Magazine.

In this same vein, the use of dialect can be condescending because it often makes the speaker sound uneducated. Some editors also question the point of writing "gonna" instead of "going to."

"Dialect is a judgment call," Mr. Pollan said. "You can bend over backwards in being scrupulous in such a way that you end up being unfair to the person quoted."

--
It seems that there's a variety of styles regarding quoting dialect.
Title: look @ allyuh fearless leader
Post by: warmonga on February 25, 2008, 03:43:03 PM
This is last   Year jes before alyuh vote for him.. he shaking hand with a gang leader.. Dais a real Crime Minister boi!!!!!!!!!!!

CONCERNED about criminal involvement in the Unemployment Relief Programme and the effect it is having on gang violence, a High Court judge criticised Government's inaction on Friday.

In freeing two men charged with one of the most brazen gang-related murders, Justice Anthony Carmona described as "delusional" and "irresponsible" statements an official had made that there were no criminal elements in the URP.

Carmona did not name the official.

However, former Local Government Rennie Dumas, when questioned on the issue in the run-up to last year's general election, went on record to say that there were no criminal elements in the URP.

Police statistics have shown that over 100 of the victims of gangland killings since 2002 were either URP supervisors, foremen, contractors or workmen.

Homicide detectives and officers from several intelligence units formed to monitor gangs have also said dozens more murders committed are related to fall-out from State-run special works projects.

Government involvement in hiring and awarding of contracts to known criminals has also been well documented over the last ten years.

Prime Minister Patrick Manning himself has had a history of dealing with people identified by police as criminals and gang leaders associated with the URP and other State-run projects.

Police, including former commissioner Hilton Guy, have also said that monies from the URP and other projects were being used to fund gang wars, murders and other "ghetto" crimes.

Gangland violence has fuelled this country's high murder rate and spun off into other crimes, such as drug trafficking, gun smuggling and kidnapping for ransom, police say.

Under Manning's PNM Government, several key crime figures identified by the police, including Mark Guerra, Kerwin "Fresh" Phillip, Sheldon "Crock" Scott, Glenroy "Abdul Malick" Charles and Salim "Small Salim" Rasheed, among others, have amassed millions through the URP and what was then the NHA refurbishing projects.

In 2002, Manning had secretly met with several known gang leaders and after one such meeting, backed down on a move to appoint ex-policemen to administer the URP, put there in the first place to clamp down on corruption.

Manning has never denied meeting with gang leaders.

Recently the Prime Minister noted in an interview that nearly all of the men he had met with have been murdered and police say all of those killings have been gang-related.

Manning's PNM, however, has not been the only party involved in URP-related corruption.

Under the UNC in 1999, councillor Hansraj Sumairsingh, chairman of the Mayaro/Rio Claro Regional Corporation, was murdered and the killing evidence showed it was linked to URP corruption.

Sumairsingh was killed overfall-out from the construction of basketball court and pavilion at Poole Valley, Rio Claro.

Former local government minister Dhanraj Singh was charged with the murder, but later freed in the High Court. Singh is also facing 26 fraud charges related to kick backs from URP and other State-run projects.

Sumairsingh is not the only councillor to have been murdered because of URP-related corruption.

In late 2006, Bert Allette, a PNM city councillor, was murdered in Belmont after raising objections about ghost gangs in a URP project, Homicide detectives say.

Incidentally, the man who was questioned about the murder and is still the number one suspect was recently awarded a $2 million Government project, sources from the police's gang intelligence unit say.

Recently, Selwyn "Robocop" Alexis, during a recent kidnapping trial, said in open court that he built houses for the then National Housing Authority under the UNC. No one from the Opposition ever denied the charge.

Based on police intelligence and records, the escalation in gangland violence and murders started in late 2001, early 2002.

Deputy Police Commissioner Gilbert Reyes has said that gang murders are mainly responsible for the country's high homicide rate.

Police records show that the increase in murders coincided with the appointment of Mark Guerra as national adviser to the URP. The post, which had never existed before then, was created for Guerra.

In September of 2002, one Government minister moved to stem the corruption in the URP by appointing members of the Flying Squad as programme supervisors.

But Manning reversed the decision after he met with several gang leaders, including Guerra and Phillip, at the Ambassador Hotel, Long Circular Road, St James.

Weeks later, when the violence exploded, Manning secretly met with gang leaders again at the same hotel and at the Rose Foundation in St James, to broker a peace deal.

Guy had said, based on police information then, that the URP and the NHA refurbishing projects were contributing to the gang violence and that most of the people involved in the murders were part of a Muslim organisation.

Late in 2002, Sean "Bill" Francis went public and said that ghost gangs in the URP and NHA projects were the main reasons behind gang violence in Laventille and Morvant.

Francis said while he was a programme coordinator in 1998/99, he got rid of over 7,000 "ghosts" in the Port of Spain region, an area controlled by Guerra.

Former PNM senator

Muhammad Shabaaz was at the side of Francis when he met Manning at the Rose Foundation, St James.

Shabaaz was soon after fired as the coordinator of the $250 million NHA refurbishing project, and in his place Cabinet appointed former murder accused David "Buffy" Millard, who held the post until he fled to Guyana.

In one public fiasco several "ghosts" were paid millions of State dollars. Names such as "Jennifer Lopez", "Serena Williams" and "Arnold Schwarzenegger" were paid for painting houses in east Port of Spain.

The Opposition had asked that the audited report of the project be laid in Parliament, but it was never done.

In the run-up to the elections of 2002, Jamaat al Muslimeen leader Imam Yasin Abu Bakr revealed that Government had started the paper work to hand over five acres of State lands adjoining the Mucurapo headquarters of the organisation to them. Manning pulled back under public pressure.

The murders continued in 2003 and it was around this time that Phillip and Charles started amassing their wealth after Guerra was murdered, police say.

Phillip was leader of the infamous G-Unit gang and Charles was the head of all the major criminals in west Port of Spain. At the time of his murder, Charles was described as a URP contractor worth $14 million.

Months before he was killed, Phillip was given a million-dollar Government contract to build a health centre at Oxford Street, Port of Spain. Phillip admitted to getting the contract during an interview with CNMG.

In 2004, Kirk Walker, a former coup maker, said he was illegally paid a URP cheque to keep him quiet after a gangster pulled a gun on him - this despite Walker's not having worked with the programme.

Walker was given the Government cheque for $710.30, dated December 20, 2004. The cheque, number U 00648168, was issued for work done in the Arima Region, Bertie Road Sanitation Project for the fortnight November 22 to December 3.

Then URP acting manager Uric Williams said he was aware of similar situations in that region, where people were being paid for work not performed.

During Abu Bakr's conspiracy to murder trial, State witness Brent Danglade said in open court that he was paid for not doing any work in the programme.

Under Singh, a unit was set up to investigate ghost gangs in the URP and has compiled several reports confirming the existence of it.

In 2004, the Ministry of Local Government started a programme to award URP contracts to gangsters if they gave up their guns, a Sunday Express expose reported.

Dumas, however, said he was not aware of such a programme.

Last year, detectives linked a wave of murders in Sea Lots, Port of Spain, to a URP contract awarded to a known criminal in the Production Avenue area.

Rasheed, who was given a URP contract to build drains at Seventh Avenue, Malick, was murdered and police said the death was related to fall-out from the contract.

Scott, whose murder sparked a wave of violence in Picton three weeks ago, was a contractor at the Beverly Hills apartments site.

Several other gang leaders and known criminals identified by the Inter Agency Task Force are also employed with the URP as either contractors, supervisors, foremen or normal workers, despite their involvement in murders, drug trafficking and kidnappings.

Police say as long as criminals benefit from State-run projects like the URP, gang violence will never stop, as corrupt monies from the special projects will continue to fund the killings and gangland violence.


What Justice Carmona said on Friday:


"Some person in authority had stated that there were no criminals in the URP. I dare say, in fact, that particular statement by the person in authority was highly delusional and totally irresponsible, because not only I, but my other brothers have made the observation time and time again of a lot of criminal activity taking place in the bowel of the URP and that is the stark reality.

"Based on matters coming before the courts in the last 18 months, I can tell you that in the bowels of the URP there is rank criminality and the authorities need to address this, you understand."

What Dumas said in an interview in 2005:

"I am saying that you will not find an individual or a group of individuals turning up and getting their cheques from us without working for it. I feel you will have serious difficulty in finding that.

"People might be employed with URP just as they could be employed anywhere else, but their major activity is outside URP. They are not using URP funds to fund kidnapping or fund drug trafficking. If you use their URP membership or the occasion of work in the URP to identify them, then you are stigmatising the URP. If it's a drug lord it's a drug lord, if it's a drug salesman, it's a drug salesman, if it's a kidnapper it's a kidnapper."


The progression of murders between 2001 and 2007;

2001 151

2002 171

2003 229

2004 260

2005 386

2006 371

2007 388
 
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on February 25, 2008, 07:07:13 PM

What a smokescreen...have people talking about newspaper rules on dialect instead of the details.
Doh dispute nutten in the article eh but ring the alarm the dialect get fix up  STEUPSE

Some next youth from the G-Unit gang get gun down.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 25, 2008, 08:10:25 PM

What a smokescreen...have people talking about newspaper rules on dialect instead of the details.
Doh dispute nutten in the article eh but ring the alarm the dialect get fix up  STEUPSE

Some next youth from the G-Unit gang get gun down.


so what de f**k yuh really want?

if de c**ts and dem want to join gang and shoot each other..tell me what is your f**king solution tuh end de shit?

Short ah killing dem like dey does do in Brazil, their will is th kill and be killed...what de f**k is de solution, all ah allyuh does bump allyuh gum.  T&T have plenty work and plenty money and plenty opportunity..how come your ass eh in ah gang shooting people and raping and robbing?

Panday, Dookeran and de rest need to offer suggestions vice criticisms.

Is not ah smokescreen, yuh say de man say one ting when de evidence proves it is not de case,, what else she take license with?

STEUPS!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 25, 2008, 10:29:28 PM
TT forgive me if I missing something but you saying that you doubt the veracity because she chose to clean up the dialect and write the quotes in standard English?

I thought this was a common practice in local papers even in cases where you use quotes. Most times when you read an article that quotes witness testimony it is not in dialect form.

There are only a couple journalists who use dialect because it suits their style like Keith Smith or Pires and I am sure that even in these cases they “convert” it from the slang that the person uses to a more conventional form of Trini dialect.


From what I' ve observed...they actually quote the subject directly "dialect/bad/broken english" and all.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 25, 2008, 10:31:16 PM
--
It seems that there's a variety of styles regarding quoting dialect.
We talking Trinidad here.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 25, 2008, 11:36:46 PM
--
It seems that there's a variety of styles regarding quoting dialect.
We talking Trinidad here.

I never see any reporter worth his or her salt changing anyone's words and still put it in quatations!

NEVER!

First rule of any english class..farless a reporter?

steups.

I cyar trust she at all.  She qualified tuh get ah wuk with Matt Drudge!

First things first, I beleive dat dey have gangs in T&T and dey have bad boys doing shit, killing etc.

I jes feel she get ah little story and make it bigger.

If a reporter writes something like dis I could go along.:


Andy voiced concern that more young lives could be lost in the embattled Laventille/Picton Street areas, if the police did not respond to the cries of citizens in those areas.

"I fraid more youth and dem would lorse they life if the police eh listen to when we complain."  "Is ah war zone." He stated.

dat is more journalistic integrity and the proper way to write.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: kounty on February 25, 2008, 11:45:04 PM
my 2c is that if ira mathur intend to sell the article to a caribbean newspaper...well not even that...TT what you write dey, I ent go put it in a newspaper even if that is what the man say verbatum.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 25, 2008, 11:51:25 PM
my 2c is that if ira mathur intend to sell the article to a caribbean newspaper...well not even that...TT what you write dey, I ent go put it in a newspaper even if that is what the man say verbatum.

Then yuh write it the right style and make select quotes.    Journalism is what it is.  Yuh doh make stuff up.  And dat is MOST LIKELY what she did.

Yuh cyar write I said "Most of us are uneducated, well for the most part, as we only have a primary school education."

when I actually said:  "Most ah we not too bright and ting yuh know, we only finish primary school."

Yuh doh do dat and call it journalism or reporting...because YUH NOT REPORTING!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 25, 2008, 11:51:53 PM
NO URP KILLINGS
Laventille MP: Only 40 people of 388 murdered worked in programme
Ria Taitt Political Editor

Tuesday, February 26th 2008


   
There is no criminal activity in the URP or killings related to the programme, NiLeung Hypolite, Parliamentary Secretary in Works and Transport, the Ministry with responsibility for URP, said yesterday.

His statement contradicted comments by Justice Anthony Carmona that "in the bowels of the URP there was rank criminality", and that the person who said otherwise was being "delusional and totally irresponsible".

Hypolite did not challenge directly Carmona's statement, which was made as he gave a ruling in a murder trial last Friday.

But the Laventille West MP stated: "I would like someone to provide evidence to prove there is a link between the URP programme and the criminal activity taking place in Trinidad and Tobago today."

He said contrary to the public perception that the fight for URP contracts was fuelling gang-related violence, "there was no contract work being offered in the URP. In fact, the last Special Works contract under the URP was done over two years ago".

"We have no contractors involved in the programme," he insisted.

Hypolite said that of the 388 people murdered last year, the URP office of the Ministry of Works and Transport identified "only approximately 40 persons" as URP employees. And, he stressed, none of the 40 was a gang leader. He said even then, one could not say that these were URP killings or killings which were directly related to the programme.

"Two persons who may be working in the URP programme may have their own outside quarrel and they decide to kill one another. That is their business, it has nothing to do with the URP programme," he stressed.

He claimed that this happened in other work places.

"Two persons may be working in a bank and after work they decide to go and fight it out. Does this mean that the bank is linked to criminality?" he asked.

Saying that in every employment place there was some criminal element, he explained that the nature of the URP programme, which caters for the unemployed who have difficulty finding work in normal business places, meant that its employees may include "people who come out of the prisons and are looking for reform".

"After all, it is the largest social programme in the country, so there may be people in the programme who are involved in illegal activities."

But he insisted this did not mean that the programme was linked to crime.

"And I take offence at the fact that every time there is a murder, it is linked to the URP," he said.

Hypolite stressed that like any entity out there, "we (in the URP) could do better".

Notwithstanding this, he contended, it was madness to suggest that the programme should be suspended or shut down.

"When you shut it down and you have 20,000 persons outside there looking for a dollar, what do you think is going to happen?" he asked.

He said at present, all the persons between the ages of 18 to 25 years on the URP register, were being transferred to Government training programmes such as MuST, YAPPA, et cetera.

He said he believed there were areas in the programme that could be streamlined because Government wanted to get value for money in the three elements comprising the programme. These elements were the maintenance works, the construction works and the women's programme, he said.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Peong on February 26, 2008, 09:07:40 AM
So more than 10% of murder victims last year in the whole country were URP workers but he just dismisses it.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 09:16:45 AM
So more than 10% of murder victims last year in the whole country were URP workers but he just dismisses it.


hahahaha  I know that was coming.  Consider that more murders are committed in one section of the country, the one with the highest number of gangs, the highest level of poverty and the lowest levels of education, and yuh go see dat dere must be members of gangs etc. in the URP....!

40 murders seem a lot though.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Peong on February 26, 2008, 09:21:14 AM
Until you have sufficient proof, consider everything, dismiss nothing.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 09:37:00 AM
Until you have sufficient proof, consider everything, dismiss nothing.


I know in my heart that the URP have gangsters.  I know for a fact that the URP has gang connections.

The thing is....how bad is it..ok let me rephrase any amount is bad.  How pervasive is it?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dinho on February 26, 2008, 10:07:43 AM
Sometimes I cyah believe the level of ignorance of this government...

It is painfully obvious that the URP is being used as a tool to pay off gang leaders...

When you look at the names of the people who getting big projects to build house and refurbish all kinda ting what need no refurbishing, is gang leaders...

What them fellahs know about project management or construction?? Then in turn these gang leaders using the URP money to finance dey nefarious activities, to pay and recruit gang members and to foster that whole climate of criminality...

Lewwe doh even talk about de ghost gangs.. Serena and J.Lo collecting cheques to buy guns..

But you know what? It gone too far now.. Dey mount dat Tiger dey cyah get off dat just so.. Stifle that income source and den yuh go see ruction, we might get some massacre like in Guyana...

Yet these politicians have de gall to come and ignore de obvious connection... steups.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Peong on February 26, 2008, 10:41:01 AM
So how much of a cut does Hypolite get for setting up ghost gangs?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: JDB on February 26, 2008, 10:55:22 AM

What a smokescreen...have people talking about newspaper rules on dialect instead of the details.
Doh dispute nutten in the article eh but ring the alarm the dialect get fix up  STEUPSE

Some next youth from the G-Unit gang get gun down.


so what de f**k yuh really want?

if de c**ts and dem want to join gang and shoot each other..tell me what is your f**king solution tuh end de shit?

Short ah killing dem like dey does do in Brazil, their will is th kill and be killed...what de f**k is de solution, all ah allyuh does bump allyuh gum.  T&T have plenty work and plenty money and plenty opportunity..how come your ass eh in ah gang shooting people and raping and robbing?

Panday, Dookeran and de rest need to offer suggestions vice criticisms.

Is not ah smokescreen, yuh say de man say one ting when de evidence proves it is not de case,, what else she take license with?

STEUPS!

TT you does real confuse me anytime the politics thing come up. Is like all objectivity does take a side. Now I have no horse in this race, PNM, UNC, COP, none of them mean much to me.

Even if the journalistic style is bad/terrible/horrible, that is a thin premise to assume that the statements are made up. It is especially strange when we know that there are a spate of killings related to the URP. We know that there are gangs and we know that youths are involved.

You telling me that you discounting th etheme of the article because you doubt th einterpretation of the individual lines?

As for what the Govt is supposed to do?

How about not sponsor a Government programme that is rife with corruption. Also if the crime problem is something that they cannot handle why take the job?

The Govt complains that they cannot do anything about crime, whether it is resources, the widespread nature of crime etc. etc.

But here we have a Govt programme that they manage, that they control and they can have a direct influence on and they are doing nothing because they are afraid to tackle criminals in Morvant/Laventille.

They basically putting their hands up and saying "we doh want no part of that fight". Why because they fraid the consequences. Morvant/Laventille has now become like slums in JA, acceptable collateral damage. Leh we throw the pothongs and dem some bones, let them manage they area and hopefully they will not make too many excursions into the rest of the country.

If you can't clean up and manage your own programme how yuh intend to handle the crime that you don't have an inside track on?

What kinda leadership is that? Is like you have children in your house that you feeding and clothing and every day they beating up you and your wife mercilessly because you fraid them.

Look at the growth of crime over the last 5 years and tell me that the Government is immune from criticism. They saying that they are unable to deal with crime and the criminals taking advantage.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 26, 2008, 11:01:03 AM
But here we have a Govt programme that they manage, that they control and they can have a direct influence on and they are doing nothing because they are afraid to tackle criminals.
IF the government was to get TOUGH on Crime, and I mean STAY THE COURSE, I believe that it would turn into a CIVIL WAR as there are TOO MANY people benefiting from Crime in TnT.
allya see who is seen hanging out with government people?
government buildings will get blown up oui
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: JDB on February 26, 2008, 11:16:37 AM
But here we have a Govt programme that they manage, that they control and they can have a direct influence on and they are doing nothing because they are afraid to tackle criminals.
IF the government was to get TOUGH on Crime, and I mean STAY THE COURSE, I believe that it would turn into a CIVIL WAR as there are TOO MANY people benefiting from Crime in TnT.
allya see who is seen hanging out with government people?
government buildings will get blown up oui

WestCoast I know yuh not being serious because that is a bullshit approach.

If things have to get worse before it get better then let it be so. Maybe if the criminal elements were actively engaged with the authorities they would have less time to terrorize the constituents who the authorities are employed to protect.

I also don’t know if yuh trying to be humorous with your Capitalizations but Morvant is not Iraq. It is our country, not another sovereign nation.

If the Government does nothing or tries to “contain” it will only get worse. So we might as well go on the offensive and make a stand now.

But all this is moot discussion because the one thing that we know is that this Gov’t ent doing nothing.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 26, 2008, 11:26:40 AM
But here we have a Govt programme that they manage, that they control and they can have a direct influence on and they are doing nothing because they are afraid to tackle criminals.
IF the government was to get TOUGH on Crime, and I mean STAY THE COURSE, I believe that it would turn into a CIVIL WAR as there are TOO MANY people benefiting from Crime in TnT.
allya see who is seen hanging out with government people?
government buildings will get blown up oui
WestCoast I know yuh not being serious because that is a bullshit approach.
If things have to get worse before it get better then let it be so. Maybe if the criminal elements were actively engaged with the authorities they would have less time to terrorize the constituents who the authorities are employed to protect.
I also don’t know if yuh trying to be humorous with your Capitalizations but Morvant is not Iraq. It is our country, not another sovereign nation.
If the Government does nothing or tries to “contain” it will only get worse. So we might as well go on the offensive and make a stand now.
But all this is moot discussion because the one thing that we know is that this Gov’t ent doing nothing.
I am very serious, and as YOU say yourself, "tries to “If the Government.........tries to contain (crime)” it will only get worse.",  it will in effect be a civil war. It's intensity may be not be as severe as you may think that I mean, but civil war none the less.
I left out reference to those areas in my post on purpose as I did not in any way believe that Major Crime is actually centralised in those areas you had mentioned in your post that I quoted. YES there is crime there, but not only there.
clarification: my opinion of a civil war is "an INTERNAL conflict, and not with another sovereign state."

"A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight against each other for the control of political power."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war

I HOPE TO GOD that I am wrong, but I don't see any other way.....ONLY if the Government was to get "Tough on Crime"
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 01:09:38 PM
Quote
TT you does real confuse me anytime the politics thing come up. Is like all objectivity does take a side. Now I have no horse in this race, PNM, UNC, COP, none of them mean much to me.

Even if the journalistic style is bad/terrible/horrible, that is a thin premise to assume that the statements are made up. It is especially strange when we know that there are a spate of killings related to the URP. We know that there are gangs and we know that youths are involved.

You telling me that you discounting th etheme of the article because you doubt th einterpretation of the individual lines?

As for what the Govt is supposed to do?

How about not sponsor a Government programme that is rife with corruption. Also if the crime problem is something that they cannot handle why take the job?

The Govt complains that they cannot do anything about crime, whether it is resources, the widespread nature of crime etc. etc.

But here we have a Govt programme that they manage, that they control and they can have a direct influence on and they are doing nothing because they are afraid to tackle criminals in Morvant/Laventille.

They basically putting their hands up and saying "we doh want no part of that fight". Why because they fraid the consequences. Morvant/Laventille has now become like slums in JA, acceptable collateral damage. Leh we throw the pothongs and dem some bones, let them manage they area and hopefully they will not make too many excursions into the rest of the country.

If you can't clean up and manage your own programme how yuh intend to handle the crime that you don't have an inside track on?

What kinda leadership is that? Is like you have children in your house that you feeding and clothing and every day they beating up you and your wife mercilessly because you fraid them.

Look at the growth of crime over the last 5 years and tell me that the Government is immune from criticism. They saying that they are unable to deal with crime and the criminals taking advantage.

Ok, listen to me carefully.  I don't believe articles where the journalist takes license to change the verbiage of the interviewed!  it lacks credibility.  That is the reason we use quotations in the first place so that we can OBJECTIVELY hear what someone has said...it is not supposed to be what he/she intended to say!

Do you see the danger in such a trend?  It is not a bad style, it is creative writing, that eh have any place in reporting "news."

OK let me address other points.

Is the URP rife with corruption or is it rife with corruption in certain areas?  I don't know, seems like you know.  anyway, those who are depending on the URP for sustenance should be cut off becasue some criminal elements are involved in the program? 

I have never seen nor heard anyone in the Government say that they cannot hado anything about the crime, yuh acting like de "journalist"   What I have heard is that they are having great difficulty dealing with crime. 

There are many social problems in certain areas of T&T.  I have no clue on how to solve them.  Young people have no regard for life.  No government can solve such problems, that is a societal and familial problem and can ONLY be solved at that level.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dinho on February 26, 2008, 01:28:47 PM

Ok, listen to me carefully.  I don't believe articles where the journalist takes license to change the verbiage of the interviewed!  it lacks credibility.  That is the reason we use quotations in the first place so that we can OBJECTIVELY hear what someone has said...it is not supposed to be what he/she intended to say!

Do you see the danger in such a trend?  It is not a bad style, it is creative writing, that eh have any place in reporting "news."

OK let me address other points.

Is the URP rife with corruption or is it rife with corruption in certain areas?  I don't know, seems like you know.  anyway, those who are depending on the URP for sustenance should be cut off becasue some criminal elements are involved in the program? 

I have never seen nor heard anyone in the Government say that they cannot hado anything about the crime, yuh acting like de "journalist"   What I have heard is that they are having great difficulty dealing with crime. 

There are many social problems in certain areas of T&T.  I have no clue on how to solve them.  Young people have no regard for life.  No government can solve such problems, that is a societal and familial problem and can ONLY be solved at that level.


TT...

I going as far as to state de obvious..

Had it be the UNC government in power, and this article was published, i highly doubt you'd be showing this kinda extensive concern for journalistic integrity...

I will admit, i turn my eyebrow up when I see how clearly stated the points were made in the interview coming from a supposed illiterate youth.. And from reading papers home, i know usually the dialect is maintained in the quotes.. Changing that is dangerous as it could misconstrue what he actually said..

Neverthless...

Dat ent no excuse to turn ah blind eye to de central points in the interview.. Or take this kinda borderline hands-off and oblivious approach you adopting like you suggesting meh boy talking fairy tale business...

Corruption is rife..

Notorious gang leaders are being preferred for big contracts.. And consequently using them to fuel de gang culture..

We not talking about stifling de average joe trying to make a dollar. We talking bout weeding out de criminal elements who profiteering.

I'm sure there are serious-minded straight-path people in the ghetto that would like the opportunity to get some ah dem contracts too, but when Manning meeting with and shaking hands of de criminals, who yuh feel getting de work?

TT, ah know yuh going and come back with some shit like I seem to have more inside knowledge than you, cause you ent see and you ent hear.. But its common knowledge bredda...

Stop bathing in yuh ignorance!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 01:44:02 PM
why would I bathe in my ignorance when you supply so much?

I am well aware of the crime situation in T&T.  I am also well aware that there is NO EASY fix.

The government can do better, they have admitted as much...I refer all to the Minister of National security when he said it was harder than he thought!

I keep hearing that the government is not doing enough, what can they do?  I am asking for solutions and viable suggestions.

The police force in T&T has to bear much of the brunt for the crime spate...spree...endemic, pandemic, epidemic that we are suffering.

as an extension of the Government, or rather a government arm then I suppose by extension the government is powerless.

Constitutional changes MUST be made to deal with the ineffectiveness of the police. The way the entire police force is run is archaic and troubling, changes are slow in coming so I understand the frustration.

Take a look at the army.  They are well trained, well armed, and paid ok, yet we have young soldiers selling out to the criminal element, from ammo, to arms to uniforms.

Ask yourself...Why?

what is going on in T&T that causes almost an entire generation to succumb to criminality.  And it is just not the young men, the young women too.

Is family values a function of the government?  What role does the church play?  Since they claim the moral high road, what part do they play?

There is no doubt that I am partial to PM Manning we go way back.  But there are many things that must be carefully weighed before action is taken and the timing too, must be right.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: kounty on February 26, 2008, 01:50:08 PM
my 2c is that if ira mathur intend to sell the article to a caribbean newspaper...well not even that...TT what you write dey, I ent go put it in a newspaper even if that is what the man say verbatum.

Then yuh write it the right style and make select quotes.    Journalism is what it is.  Yuh doh make stuff up.  And dat is MOST LIKELY what she did.

Yuh cyar write I said "Most of us are uneducated, well for the most part, as we only have a primary school education."

when I actually said:  "Most ah we not too bright and ting yuh know, we only finish primary school."

Yuh doh do dat and call it journalism or reporting...because YUH NOT REPORTING!
alright...cool, what if you is fuentes and you interviewing maturana (assuming fuentes know spanish and writing an english article), what you go do?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 01:51:53 PM
my 2c is that if ira mathur intend to sell the article to a caribbean newspaper...well not even that...TT what you write dey, I ent go put it in a newspaper even if that is what the man say verbatum.

Then yuh write it the right style and make select quotes.    Journalism is what it is.  Yuh doh make stuff up.  And dat is MOST LIKELY what she did.

Yuh cyar write I said "Most of us are uneducated, well for the most part, as we only have a primary school education."

when I actually said:  "Most ah we not too bright and ting yuh know, we only finish primary school."

Yuh doh do dat and call it journalism or reporting...because YUH NOT REPORTING!
alright...cool, what if you is fuentes and you interviewing maturana (assuming fuentes know spanish and writing an english article), what you go do?

huh?  same thing, yuh write verbatim what de man say!  jes in english.  is ok tuh translate correctly!

wha is yuh point?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: kounty on February 26, 2008, 02:00:11 PM
the point is, that as in peong original post; is okay to translate from one language (trini creole, bad english etc.) to another language as long as you stay true to the words of the person...you keep the quotation marks...I could see where cleaning it too much wold be a problem, but doing it at all cyah be bad journalism.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dinho on February 26, 2008, 02:02:34 PM
the point is, that as in peong original post; is okay to translate from one language (trini creole, bad english etc.) to another language as long as you stay true to the words of the person...you keep the quotation marks...I could see where cleaning it too much wold be a problem, but doing it at all cyah be bad journalism.

nah...

inconsistencies from translation from a different language, and deliberately cleaning up trinidadian dialect (which is already english) to a more proper english is two whole different matters altogether...
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ribbit on February 26, 2008, 02:04:39 PM
dcs, like this woman have 10+ years of "creative writing" up on that website. she must be a real mad woman interviewing she self and playing journalist all this time.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: kounty on February 26, 2008, 02:35:19 PM
the point is, that as in peong original post; is okay to translate from one language (trini creole, bad english etc.) to another language as long as you stay true to the words of the person...you keep the quotation marks...I could see where cleaning it too much wold be a problem, but doing it at all cyah be bad journalism.

nah...

inconsistencies from translation from a different language, and deliberately cleaning up trinidadian dialect (which is already english) to a more proper english is two whole different matters altogether...
maybe we can find out if the biggest newspapers in the world do it.

http://www.rrj.ca/issue/1987/spring/50/
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 05:05:58 PM
dcs, like this woman have 10+ years of "creative writing" up on that website. she must be a real mad woman interviewing she self and playing journalist all this time.

yuh being an ass.  I am not suggesting that she does it all the time, in fact I did not even waste time reading anything else she had "written."

My point is YOU DONT TAKE JOURNALISTIC LICENSE AND CHANGE PEOPLE'S WORDS!

That is a no-no in writing and if you fellas eh know dat, den yuh need to go back tuh school and re-take ah english class.

eh-eh.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on February 26, 2008, 05:33:23 PM
While you at it, I would like to know all the made up sections of the Heerahlal article as well, since the minister obviously feel he and Justice Carmona lying...

Congrats Truetrini, you have graduated cum laude in the art of smoke and mirrors...as have most of the politically aware people in my fair country it would seem.

2 pages of p(f)iddling about journalistic protocol while the country burns...

Same shit - different day
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dinho on February 26, 2008, 05:49:47 PM
Allyuh study truetrini..

He ent address my first point yet...

If was UNC in government and this shit was going on, the article woulda be spot on!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 26, 2008, 05:58:45 PM
While you at it, I would like to know all the made up sections of the Heerahlal article as well, since the minister obviously feel he and Justice Carmona lying...

Congrats Truetrini, you have graduated cum laude in the art of smoke and mirrors...as have most of the politically aware people in my fair country it would seem.

2 pages of p(f)iddling about journalistic protocol while the country burns...

Same shit - different day

de country burning?  where de water to put out de fire?

what suggestions allyuh have to remedy the malady?

Your fair country?  what yuh contribute tuh yuh fair country in de last 5 years...see how fair I am/  ah giving yuh half ah decade...answer nah..ah dare yuh!

Listen the crime in T&T is bad...but it is also isolated to a sector or two.

It is an urban jungle and there  are myriad problems.  allyuh say de government incompetent, I ask allyuh for suggestions, I will personally pass dem on.

steups

as for if de UNC was in power...fairy tale, I eh feel I have tuh address dat shit...dem eh getting in power for a long time..so leh me wuk with what I have.

Ok Omar..For God's sake..ah go answer yuh leh we examine de UNC reign..so tuh speak.

Build schools dat students cyar use, airport that grossly inflated and leaking de first month after construction.  Many cane farmers whose backs were roe like pack mule..left with nuttten.

Tifing galore, and all dat in 5 years alone eh.  As opposition party dey eh contribute much either.

Balk at de bail bill, balk at legislation tuh curtail crime.  what dem do again?  Apart from tief!

I already conceded that crime is rampant in certain sectors in T&T, dat is all I could do....I eh know how tuh solve it, and neither do any of you!

Short of organizing a mass eradication progrom...I really at a loss. 
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on February 26, 2008, 06:42:36 PM
While you at it, I would like to know all the made up sections of the Heerahlal article as well, since the minister obviously feel he and Justice Carmona lying...

Congrats Truetrini, you have graduated cum laude in the art of smoke and mirrors...as have most of the politically aware people in my fair country it would seem.

2 pages of p(f)iddling about journalistic protocol while the country burns...

Same shit - different day

de country burning?  where de water to put out de fire?

what suggestions allyuh have to remedy the malady?

Maybe stopping the banalising of criminal activity and the tacit and not so tacit authorisation of criminal behaviour by conceding authority to these so called community leaders. Definitely by stopping the fraternizing with these criminal elements would be a start.

Your fair country?  what yuh contribute tuh yuh fair country in de last 5 years...see how fair I am/  ah giving yuh half ah decade...answer nah..ah dare yuh!

The trend of typically violent responses continue - shoot the messenger and ignore the message.

FYI (not that I have to prove anything to you or anyone else)

- I have been doing my fair share towards the preservation of MY FAIR COUNTRY'S cultural heritage.

- I have also done comprehensive analysis of how MY FAIR COUNTRY'S race relations have evolved and what this evolution implies for the political and social future of MY FAIR COUNTRY.

- I have protested against a number of counterproductive economic policies in MY FAIR COUNTRY undertaken by the same government that you ceaselessly defend

- I have probably done as much or more as the TDC in promoting MY FAIR COUNTRY as an attractive destination for tourists during my time here.

- Oh yes. And since yuh so fast and out of place, everytime I go home I pick the ticks and fleas off my dogs to stop a public health nuisance from declaring in MY FAIR COUNTRY.

Anything else you want to know or can you now stop wasting people time with all this inconsequential stuff and let us discuss the subject at hand?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dinho on February 26, 2008, 07:00:00 PM
as for if de UNC was in power...fairy tale, I eh feel I have tuh address dat shit...dem eh getting in power for a long time..so leh me wuk with what I have.

Ok Omar..For God's sake..ah go answer yuh leh we examine de UNC reign..so tuh speak.

Build schools dat students cyar use, airport that grossly inflated and leaking de first month after construction.  Many cane farmers whose backs were roe like pack mule..left with nuttten.

Tifing galore, and all dat in 5 years alone eh.  As opposition party dey eh contribute much either.

Balk at de bail bill, balk at legislation tuh curtail crime.  what dem do again?  Apart from tief!

I already conceded that crime is rampant in certain sectors in T&T, dat is all I could do....I eh know how tuh solve it, and neither do any of you!

Short of organizing a mass eradication progrom...I really at a loss. 

All that and you did not even catch my drift...

i never ask you about what UNC wouldve done in government for the situation.

I said that if the UNC was in power, and this article was published you wouldve accepted it verbatim without batting ah eyelid..

From your initial dismissive stance on the article and its veracity, it seemed like you were attacking the credibility of the article as if the whole story was made up..

Ah know yuh love yuh PNM, but dat ent no reason to go into denial..
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: kounty on February 26, 2008, 07:14:33 PM
Quote from: truetrini
Listen the crime in T&T is bad...but it is also isolated to a sector or two.

 :shameonyou:

I thought you was spendin time in trini recently?  it wasn't by you?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 26, 2008, 07:39:17 PM
- Oh yes. And since yuh so fast and out of place, everytime I go home I pick the ticks and fleas off my dogs to stop a public health nuisance from declaring in MY FAIR COUNTRY.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: JDB on February 26, 2008, 09:11:48 PM
Is the URP rife with corruption or is it rife with corruption in certain areas?  I don't know, seems like you know.  anyway, those who are depending on the URP for sustenance should be cut off becasue some criminal elements are involved in the program? 

I have never seen nor heard anyone in the Government say that they cannot hado anything about the crime, yuh acting like de "journalist"   What I have heard is that they are having great difficulty dealing with crime. 

There are many social problems in certain areas of T&T.  I have no clue on how to solve them.  Young people have no regard for life.  No government can solve such problems, that is a societal and familial problem and can ONLY be solved at that level.

true all I hearing from you is that the National crime problem is too big for the Government.

What I am saying is that it is evident that even in cases where they can have an effect, they don't. If you are running a business and your employees corrupt and taking advantage, what do you do?

What makes it worse is that they have complete authority to clean up th esituation? How of all things in TnT the URP could be so corrupt is beyond me, whether it is in Morvant, Toco or Tobago, if this going on for so long and the Gov't hasn't put a stop to it they not doing a good job. Nobody is saying to disband the program and hurt the beneficiaries but instead clean it up so they could fully benefit.

as for if de UNC was in power...fairy tale, I eh feel I have tuh address dat shit...dem eh getting in power for a long time..so leh me wuk with what I have.

Ok Omar..For God's sake..ah go answer yuh leh we examine de UNC reign..so tuh speak

This is why DCS say that you on the defensive and why I say you forget all objectivity when these topics come up. Because everytime somebody criticise the Government you does have to talk about the UNC and COP.

But the election done long time and the next one is five years awy so why waste time comparing and campaigning from now. If you ask me I would say that the UNC would do no better. And as bad as the crime is (and will get) the PNM in power for the next 30 years because they have no viable opposition. Both parties is similar shit and have similar objectives, ensure that they stay in power as long as possible first, everything else second.

The public already give the PNM the mandate saying that they are better than the UNC so why keep bringing up that shit. The Govt needs to be showing that they are better now than they were yesterday, to show that they are improving and addressing the needs of the people, not that they better than what the UNC was 8 years ago.

But that is the problem now just as it was in the past they have no pressure to get anything right so they just muddling along and making noise about crime while the crime keeps getting worse.

And it will continue to get worse if everytime the crime situation comes up PNM supporters talk about how the UNC wouldn't do better or discredit a journalists account as fiction.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 26, 2008, 10:39:26 PM
At this juncture the crime rate can only be significantly reduced in areasonable time frame under a massive and on-going suspension of civil liberties or a complete revamping of societal structure.


 That will either take a military intervention or sectarian coup that will make the last attempt look like a game of tiddlywinks.


Either way, you play the piper now, or reap a whirlwind of hell later.


Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 27, 2008, 02:40:52 AM
At this juncture the crime rate can only be significantly reduced in areasonable time frame under a massive and on-going suspension of civil liberties or a complete revamping of societal structure.
 That will either take a military intervention or sectarian coup that will make the last attempt look like a game of tiddlywinks.
Either way, you play the piper now, or reap a whirlwind of hell later.
brilliant way to put it
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: fishs on February 27, 2008, 05:33:05 AM
Actually the big money the gangs making is not from URP but from CEPEP and HDC.
URP doh give out contracts.
What happening is the gangs will control the CEPEP and HDC projects in there area and at the same time control the URP crews.
The money they will make from URP is nonsense compared to the contracts, the control of URP on the other hand allowing them to control the poorer people in their area.
Carmona correct to say that there are criminals in the URP, it have criminals in every office in Trinidad, what was wrong was for him to create the impression that URP is run by the gangs, jus some of the crews are gang controlled.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 06:55:05 AM
as for if de UNC was in power...fairy tale, I eh feel I have tuh address dat shit...dem eh getting in power for a long time..so leh me wuk with what I have.

Ok Omar..For God's sake..ah go answer yuh leh we examine de UNC reign..so tuh speak.

Build schools dat students cyar use, airport that grossly inflated and leaking de first month after construction.  Many cane farmers whose backs were roe like pack mule..left with nuttten.

Tifing galore, and all dat in 5 years alone eh.  As opposition party dey eh contribute much either.

Balk at de bail bill, balk at legislation tuh curtail crime.  what dem do again?  Apart from tief!

I already conceded that crime is rampant in certain sectors in T&T, dat is all I could do....I eh know how tuh solve it, and neither do any of you!

Short of organizing a mass eradication progrom...I really at a loss. 

All that and you did not even catch my drift...

i never ask you about what UNC wouldve done in government for the situation.

I said that if the UNC was in power, and this article was published you wouldve accepted it verbatim without batting ah eyelid..

From your initial dismissive stance on the article and its veracity, it seemed like you were attacking the credibility of the article as if the whole story was made up..

Ah know yuh love yuh PNM, but dat ent no reason to go into denial..

I doh love PNM fella...au contraire.  The ONLY time I ever voted PNM was this last election!

i prefer the PNM over the alternatives.

I dont cotton to "journalists" who take license and change verbiage of so-called interviewees.

How many times do I have to say that for you to understand. 

UNC is shit!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 07:04:54 AM
Actually the big money the gangs making is not from URP but from CEPEP and HDC.
URP doh give out contracts.
What happening is the gangs will control the CEPEP and HDC projects in there area and at the same time control the URP crews.
The money they will make from URP is nonsense compared to the contracts, the control of URP on the other hand allowing them to control the poorer people in their area.
Carmona correct to say that there are criminals in the URP, it have criminals in every office in Trinidad, what was wrong was for him to create the impression that URP is run by the gangs, jus some of the crews are gang controlled.

Fishes, that is what these jokers eh getting.  URP is not a generous and gratitious program that gives away contracts.  The lower classes in T&T participate in URP and it helps many of them, becasue the violent crime in T&T is MOSTLY committed by the lower classes, ....yuh getting meh drift?

As formy UNC comments JDB, I was addressing a question posed by Omar.

I could care less about what dcs thinks, he naive and supporting a lost cause with the COP..dem eh have any leadership.

I have said that the crime in T&T is not easibly dealt with as it is entrenched into the psyche of certain groups in the nation.   I also asked if it is possible for the government to solve those issues I welcome suggestions.

Midnight and JDB, as Zandolie said the way to deal with crime in T&T is thru the massive suppression of civil liberties and the eradication of unsavoury elements.

Are you suggesting that the government unertakes such a progrom?  I already asked that question.   Believe me, it has been discussed by the Government.  They are NOT prepared to go that course.

I am still awaiting responses on what the illustrious posters and crime fighters on this board has to offer in way of suggestions to the government in way of crime fighting iniatives.

JDB, you talk about thin premise, dont you think that the journalist should have put a disclaimer in her article that she changed verbiage of the interviewed to make it easier to read and understand?

Also shouldnt she have stated plainly that the URP does NOT give out contracts...but you didnt know that did you?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Swima on February 27, 2008, 07:37:25 AM
Quote from: truetrini


I have said that the crime in T&T is not easibly dealt with as it is entrenched into the psyche of certain groups in the nation.   I also asked if it is possible for the government to solve those issues I welcome suggestions.

Midnight and JDB, as Zandolie said the way to deal with crime in T&T is thru the massive suppression of civil liberties and the eradication of unsavoury elements.

Are you suggesting that the government unertakes such a progrom?  I already asked that question.   Believe me, it has been discussed by the Government.  They are NOT prepared to go that course.

I am still awaiting responses on what the illustrious posters and crime fighters on this board has to offer in way of suggestions to the government in way of crime fighting iniatives.



I've been reading with interest and would like to know why was the proposal rejected? I know that it doesn't seem as bad as the press makes it out to be, but the truth is, the press doesn't report a number of serious, life-endangering crimes that occurr on a daily basis. That being said, you have a sector of the population who live in fear of being targetted simply for the car they drive, the job they hold, their ethnicity, their gender etc. Does anyone deserve to live like that?

Does the gov't see such a proposal as bringing them out of favour with their die hards? Would it mean a down turn for the economy? I ask this because the way I see it, if we are not prepared to make some short term concessions, we stand a good chance of paying for it in the long term, while some of us will still feel the effects of crime in the more immediate future.

I am compelled to put up a poll on the board asking how many of us know a first hand victim of crime, if indeed we have not experienced it ourselves. The Prime Minister said he wants crime at an acceptable level. Well exactly what is acceptable, and what should you and I accept for our wives and children? How peowerless is the Gov't when they have been known to consort with the "gang leaders". How powerless are you really when you are cutting favours for the ones who are bringing in the drugs? What I think you are seeing TT is a population simply frustrated and concerned, if not scared. The job of the gov't is to protect its citizens. Whether we vote for them or not, they are there to perform that task among others and we are simply not feeling all that secure.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: truetrini


I have said that the crime in T&T is not easibly dealt with as it is entrenched into the psyche of certain groups in the nation.   I also asked if it is possible for the government to solve those issues I welcome suggestions.

Midnight and JDB, as Zandolie said the way to deal with crime in T&T is thru the massive suppression of civil liberties and the eradication of unsavoury elements.

Are you suggesting that the government unertakes such a progrom?  I already asked that question.   Believe me, it has been discussed by the Government.  They are NOT prepared to go that course.

I am still awaiting responses on what the illustrious posters and crime fighters on this board has to offer in way of suggestions to the government in way of crime fighting iniatives.



I've been reading with interest and would like to know why was the proposal rejected? I know that it doesn't seem as bad as the press makes it out to be, but the truth is, the press doesn't report a number of serious, life-endangering crimes that occurr on a daily basis. That being said, you have a sector of the population who live in fear of being targetted simply for the car they drive, the job they hold, their ethnicity, their gender etc. Does anyone deserve to live like that?

Does the gov't see such a proposal as bringing them out of favour with their die hards? Would it mean a down turn for the economy? I ask this because the way I see it, if we are not prepared to make some short term concessions, we stand a good chance of paying for it in the long term, while some of us will still feel the effects of crime in the more immediate future.

I am compelled to put up a poll on the board asking how many of us know a first hand victim of crime, if indeed we have not experienced it ourselves. The Prime Minister said he wants crime at an acceptable level. Well exactly what is acceptable, and what should you and I accept for our wives and children? How peowerless is the Gov't when they have been known to consort with the "gang leaders". How powerless are you really when you are cutting favours for the ones who are bringing in the drugs? What I think you are seeing TT is a population simply frustrated and concerned, if not scared. The job of the gov't is to protect its citizens. Whether we vote for them or not, they are there to perform that task among others and we are simply not feeling all that secure.

I hear yuh swima, I hear yuh loud and clear.

The government rejected the restriction of civil liberties because the self same persons who complain would be the first to bawl out we living in Soweto now.

I understand the frustrtaion and those working on dealing with the issue of crime face problems due to the laws in T&T and the failure of the police to deal with common criminals.  Imagine the police can never find wanted men, yet these same men are easily found by rival gang members and shot dead walking in the streets in plain sight!

The way the laws are structured, ties the hands of the Minister of Nat. Security.  If the Government has failed miserably in anything is with regards to the police.  Something must be done.  When changes were attempted to be made, the Police services asssociation stepped in and made trouble and then the courts blocked the government too.  (changing the way to promote police etc.)

The population has no trust of the police and the police are often high handed in their dealings with the public.

the government MUST affect change there to make an impact on crime.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Jah Gol on February 27, 2008, 08:40:44 AM
At this juncture the crime rate can only be significantly reduced in areasonable time frame under a massive and on-going suspension of civil liberties or a complete revamping of societal structure.


 That will either take a military intervention or sectarian coup that will make the last attempt look like a game of tiddlywinks.


Either way, you play the piper now, or reap a whirlwind of hell later.

When I ponder about this situation I am resigned to believe that this sort of action must occur in some form to effect any meaningfull change in the long term.

I see drug and arms interdiction, strengthening of customs capability and police reform as critical elements required o preserve security and order. Ultimately however, the judicial system must run its course. This is where change becomes most problematic. How do we guarantee fair trials and due process to offenders while treating with elements of the nefarious underworld with swift and stern action ? One suggestion has been to correct some of the problems that create delays and mistrials in the system such as, Police retraining and improvement of the administrative infrastructure of the Judiciary. I am not optimistic that even perfect implementation of these initiatives would lead to a dramatic increase in the number of convictions.

A special court immune from the machinations of corrupt individuals must be set up. DANGEROUS STUFF INDEED.

Police have already begun to take out some of these men. Repeating unconvicted offenders deserve special attention.

I wish I could say more about strategic level criminals- the controllers of the factors of production. Attempts must be made to try these people where evidence is available.

Government must develop an education policy specific to 'at risk' youth. This is already happening to some extent but it need to be strengthened. Illiteracy must be detected early and corrected by well trained and well equipped teachers in decent facilities. This in my view will lower the drop out rate significantly.

Government must also design a plan to deal with 'unoccupied' youth. I support an involuntary draft into a retraining pro gramme of some kind for these youth. 
   




Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 08:45:20 AM
That is the fear of the Goverment Jah Gol.  How do we deal with dese jokers without impugning on civil liberties of the ordinary citizens?

There are many, many programs for youth in T&T...numerous training programs. unless the court mandates attendance, then it is voluntary.

there is absolutely no excuse for a youth man in T&T not to get some sort of tertiary, vocational or on the job tarining in T&T..NONE!

They prefer to rob and kill dan educate themselves.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 27, 2008, 09:21:44 AM
There is no one answer to crime as everyone knows. In fact one could define "crime" as just a set of cultural prohibitions to which the state applies its monopoly on violence. Just an example, when I was a schoolboy there was a large fruit grove. The grove bordered on a large sports facility and the fruit was never harvested, it was there for aesthetic purposes. We used to walk by and pick fruit to eat. Whenever the guard saw us picking fruit, he would come over and give us hell. We would respond by running and/or pelting fruit behind him.

Now what we did was a crime. And we knew it. But we still did it anyway. Why? Because the law had absolutely no relevence to us. If people hungry and they steal food it is a crime right. But is it neccessarily immoral? If society has forced a persons hand, e.g. a runaway slave forced to steal to eat it is still a crime, but it is not immoral.

My point is that the legal structures we have in T&T as a Western nation, have been imposed upon the people of the nation by foreigners. No question of that. Laws have been put in place with absolutely no sense of cultural relevence dating back to the colonial era. Again I'll use a simplistic example. Laws previously existed in T&T to prohibit nonwhites from pursuing certain professions, and accumulating material possessions such as land, etc. These laws were eventually changed basically because they did not represent and were counterproductive to the growing middle classes who aggressively petitioned for better laws which allowed them to integrate into the power structures.

But laws are not cold static instruments. They convey and dispense cultural meaning. European derived laws and the cultural landscape that it helps create do not have a good fit with the latent elements of West African cultures, which exist most prominently, not by coincidence in the crime ridden areas. This is not just evident in T&T but all over the diaspora, including every nation in Africa. For example I might say that to people who have a strong cultural sense of sharing resources and have a traditionally poor understanding of private property as is at the root of many traditional African cultures, including some communities in T&T, will have a hard time adhering to European derived legal and cultural laws that promote individualism and accumulation of private property. The point is in T&T we have never waited for marginalized people to change themselves, we have changed laws to suit our people, both of Indian and African origins.

Now that said, is it possible to govern marginalized T&T communities in a slightly different way to help ease the cultural transition of the more African elements toward the Euro-centric mainstream. If so how? A special community police that patrol the communites all hours of the night? Grants to people whose children do well in school, athletics, music, arts?  Give them some measure of autonomy or reign them in more? Legitimize and expand financial and cultural instruments used by the community? Look at the Indian population in St. Vincent. For years they had been downtrodden and at the margins of society. Now they are fully integrated into the life of the country and are thriving economically. What patterns have alllowed East Indians in T&T to achieve the same economic and social progress?

Or maybe we should just say, "hard luck, history is a bitch" and just wipe all of them out? That is the only way the problem could be significantly reduced in quick time.


I have no perfect solutions, all I know is that crime has taken a deep toll on T&T. and None of us here want to be another Jamaica.

Successive governments like they just waiting for the problem to go away. Dat is not happening. The more we put it off the more pain we will surely feel.

Bless up T&T



Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 09:37:16 AM
Interesting perspective.

I agree that there is no short term answer.  many here feel otherwise.

I believe that one sure way is to further marginalize, like shutting down URP. destroying people's homes in Laventille and Morvant and doing like the chinese and place them in differnt areas.

But which areas?  Who in the growing middle class want dem in dey area?

maybe the police can begin to shoot down/execute all known or suspected criminals...the price of progress is high...ent?  Neogoiations failed, delas failed, maybe its drastic measures for drastic times?

Curfews, state of emergency, police state???
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 27, 2008, 09:40:11 AM
One other thing, this setta single mothers all over the place can't cut it today. In the past, times were simple and people were possesed of enogh moral fortitude to overcome that. Today social pressures are far too strong to expect most single parent to keep children on the straight and narrow. The big culprit is Trini jackass men who cannot keep their sexual desires under control and a society that praises the sexual prowess of men.

I'm talking here about fathers who completely abandon their children, not separated fathers who take part in their childrens lives.

It is women who are left to rear these children. Many single parents do  agreat job, but too many far too young and hot-up with themselves. They could look like good mothers when the children are babies, but when lil Johnny gets older and needs serious discipline they are unable to handle it. I read recently that Jamaica is the worlds most murderous country and close to 80% of the children there are raised in single homes. The situation must proportionately worse inthe poor areas. Me eh picking on Jamaica, I know a few Jammies and they are damn good people, and the nation itself has made us Caribbean people proud, but their nation is in a mess, and they are poweless to to anything about it.

It should be considered a disgrace when a man have one set of children all by different women. That should be a sign of social dysfunction, as it is in Europe, China, India etc.

I feel that is a big part of the problem

My background is science, so my opinions are not very informed in regard to this, but I seem to see patterns of cause and consequence in most of these problems

I'm not trying to demonize single mothers, they at least TRY to raise their children. But where are all the supportivre fathers in these areas?
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 10:44:54 AM
Accused men caught in drug trade in court
Paul Henry
Wednesday, February 27, 2008

Two men already facing gun-related charges were yesterday slapped with an additional charge of marijuana possession after a judge caught them in a ganja trade in court while their case was being mentioned.

Grants Pen St Andrew resident Richard Green, who was on $150,000 bail after his recent arrest on a charge of illegal possession of a firearm and shooting with intent, was caught red-handed by Justice Christine Straw handing a $100 bag of ganja to detainee Damion Simpson, who was also in the High Court Division of the Gun Court facing shooting charges.

The men's suspicious movements caught the attention of Straw, a search was ordered and the weed discovered. The men were then charged.

Green was spared having his bail revoked and also escaped a more serious charge of contempt of court after both he and his lawyer begged the judge for mercy.

When asked by Straw to explain his action, Green told the court that Simpson's mother had given him the money to purchase the weed for her son, who is still behind bars, as he was unable to take up his $150,000 bail offer at a previous hearing.

Green said that he was sorry and that his action in court was the "most stupidest" thing he had ever done, while begging the judge not to take away his bail.

Green was later released on $10,000 station bail.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 27, 2008, 10:58:14 AM
Nah TT, dat cyah be in Trini.

Not so much for the ass who peddling weed in court, but the jackass judge who actually give him bail
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 27, 2008, 11:14:57 AM
Nah TT, dat cyah be in Trini.

Not so much for the ass who peddling weed in court, but the jackass judge who actually give him bail

I read dat and shake my head yes.  De man selling weed right dey in front de judge and still get bail.


Must be de Govament fault.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 27, 2008, 11:24:06 AM
Nah TT, dat cyah be in Trini.

Not so much for the ass who peddling weed in court, but the jackass judge who actually give him bail

I read dat and shake my head yes. De man selling weed right dey in front de judge and still get bail.


Must be de Govament fault.

An de fecking man dealing weed to a fella who ALREADY in jail eh. Lardo!

And de proceeds was for de next man to make bail!  :rotfl:

He want outa jail bad. Dem Nelson St badjohn must be giving him sweet eye and calling him shorty.

Go brave, I woulda sell weed in front ah Jesus to get outa dey

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 27, 2008, 11:29:34 AM
obviously, he ent have a "Plan" :devil:
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on February 27, 2008, 11:31:57 AM
He getting Plan-ass
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 11:35:37 AM
nah sorry, that was in Jamaica...not &T...I was being ah ass and post that to show de quotes.

lol

still is bullshit de man get out on bail still.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ribbit on February 27, 2008, 12:32:35 PM
There is no one answer to crime as everyone knows. In fact one could define "crime" as just a set of cultural prohibitions to which the state applies its monopoly on violence. Just an example, when I was a schoolboy there was a large fruit grove. The grove bordered on a large sports facility and the fruit was never harvested, it was there for aesthetic purposes. We used to walk by and pick fruit to eat. Whenever the guard saw us picking fruit, he would come over and give us hell. We would respond by running and/or pelting fruit behind him.

Now what we did was a crime. And we knew it. But we still did it anyway. Why? Because the law had absolutely no relevence to us. If people hungry and they steal food it is a crime right. But is it neccessarily immoral? If society has forced a persons hand, e.g. a runaway slave forced to steal to eat it is still a crime, but it is not immoral.

My point is that the legal structures we have in T&T as a Western nation, have been imposed upon the people of the nation by foreigners. No question of that. Laws have been put in place with absolutely no sense of cultural relevence dating back to the colonial era. Again I'll use a simplistic example. Laws previously existed in T&T to prohibit nonwhites from pursuing certain professions, and accumulating material possessions such as land, etc. These laws were eventually changed basically because they did not represent and were counterproductive to the growing middle classes who aggressively petitioned for better laws which allowed them to integrate into the power structures.

But laws are not cold static instruments. They convey and dispense cultural meaning. European derived laws and the cultural landscape that it helps create do not have a good fit with the latent elements of West African cultures, which exist most prominently, not by coincidence in the crime ridden areas. This is not just evident in T&T but all over the diaspora, including every nation in Africa. For example I might say that to people who have a strong cultural sense of sharing resources and have a traditionally poor understanding of private property as is at the root of many traditional African cultures, including some communities in T&T, will have a hard time adhering to European derived legal and cultural laws that promote individualism and accumulation of private property. The point is in T&T we have never waited for marginalized people to change themselves, we have changed laws to suit our people, both of Indian and African origins.

Now that said, is it possible to govern marginalized T&T communities in a slightly different way to help ease the cultural transition of the more African elements toward the Euro-centric mainstream. If so how? A special community police that patrol the communites all hours of the night? Grants to people whose children do well in school, athletics, music, arts?  Give them some measure of autonomy or reign them in more? Legitimize and expand financial and cultural instruments used by the community? Look at the Indian population in St. Vincent. For years they had been downtrodden and at the margins of society. Now they are fully integrated into the life of the country and are thriving economically. What patterns have alllowed East Indians in T&T to achieve the same economic and social progress?

Or maybe we should just say, "hard luck, history is a bitch" and just wipe all of them out? That is the only way the problem could be significantly reduced in quick time.


I have no perfect solutions, all I know is that crime has taken a deep toll on T&T. and None of us here want to be another Jamaica.

Successive governments like they just waiting for the problem to go away. Dat is not happening. The more we put it off the more pain we will surely feel.

Bless up T&T





zandolie, i've seen part of what you have articulated here, presented as a problem with aspects of the wider liberal (small-"l") culture itself - not just the colonial application of "foreign" institutions. the notion that a society can better itself by pouring in enough law and education without considering social norms is a dangerous premise. imagine a society that rewards truetrini's legalistic dismissal of mathur's article, and ignores the substance of the article which finds at least some resonance with other forumites. one would think that would be missing the forest from the trees but THIS is the road some parts of society want to travel.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 12:42:58 PM
Show me a society that rewards someone for changing the statements of others and accepting it as legit and I will show you a society that is in decay!

I acknowledged that there is some validity to the storyline, BUT..if you know ANYTHING about journalism and simple rules of writing, you will see that I am right.

nevertheless, the dotish writer failed to research her topic adequately anyway.

THE URP DOES NOT OFFER CONTRACTS!

If she were worth her salt, then she would have found that out and put in a disclaimer to such.

Typical shit that passes for journalism in T&T!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 27, 2008, 01:00:20 PM
I woulda sell weed in front ah Jesus to get outa dey



 :rotfl: :rotfl: ent!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Peong on February 27, 2008, 01:24:42 PM
Show me a society that rewards someone for changing the statements of others and accepting it as legit and I will show you a society that is in decay!

I acknowledged that there is some validity to the storyline, BUT..if you know ANYTHING about journalism and simple rules of writing, you will see that I am right.

nevertheless, the dotish writer failed to research her topic adequately anyway.

THE URP DOES NOT OFFER CONTRACTS!

If she were worth her salt, then she would have found that out and put in a disclaimer to such.

Typical shit that passes for journalism in T&T!

1. All mention of contracts in the article is attributed to the interviewee, not the writer.
2. The interview (not the article) is not dated, so it could have been done while contracts were still offered.
3. The interviewer seems to have been trying to avoid the gang life, and so might not know the exact details of the current schemes.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 01:41:29 PM
Show me a society that rewards someone for changing the statements of others and accepting it as legit and I will show you a society that is in decay!

I acknowledged that there is some validity to the storyline, BUT..if you know ANYTHING about journalism and simple rules of writing, you will see that I am right.

nevertheless, the dotish writer failed to research her topic adequately anyway.

THE URP DOES NOT OFFER CONTRACTS!

If she were worth her salt, then she would have found that out and put in a disclaimer to such.

Typical shit that passes for journalism in T&T!

1. All mention of contracts in the article is attributed to the interviewee, not the writer.
2. The interview (not the article) is not dated, so it could have been done while contracts were still offered.
3. The interviewer seems to have been trying to avoid the gang life, and so might not know the exact details of the current schemes.

Good points...

1.  Since the article is not dated one can reasonably assume that it is recent, otherwise protcol also requires the dating. 
2.  The writer has a responsibility to research and inform her readers in the best possible way, that does not involve changing words nor ommitting facts.
3.  I agree that the interviewee seems to be avoiding the gang life, seems like he was an unwilling participant in the first place.

Again good points.

I am aware of the troubles and problems in T&T and I do know that there are gangs and that there are multiple murders that mar our country's image.

I wish we could do something immediately to handle the crime.  I have no ideas on how to sdo so in the short term, but for some to suggest that the government is not doing anything, or that there are no options for youths in T&T is a joke.

More opportunities exist than when I was a youth and we never had those troubles back then.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on February 27, 2008, 03:26:23 PM
the notion that a society can better itself by pouring in enough law and education without considering social norms is a dangerous premise. imagine a society that rewards truetrini's legalistic dismissal of mathur's article, and ignores the substance of the article which finds at least some resonance with other forumites. one would think that would be missing the forest from the trees but THIS is the road some parts of society want to travel.

The problem is that this mentality has been long present in Trinidad and Tobago. To show our esteemed PNMite that few are considering this a PNM problem per se, I distinctly remember two events during the first Panday administration when "shite journalism" exposed some rank irregularities in the handling of public affairs, and rather than address the said irregularities, the government's first response was to open an investigation into how the journalist obtained the information as opposed to punishing the perpetrators of the irregularities/correcting them.

Unfortunately, the present administration has simply continued to entrench this trend whereby transparency takes a backseat to procedural (and political) expediency.

But laws are not cold static instruments. They convey and dispense cultural meaning. European derived laws and the cultural landscape that it helps create do not have a good fit with the latent elements of West African cultures, which exist most prominently, not by coincidence in the crime ridden areas. This is not just evident in T&T but all over the diaspora, including every nation in Africa. For example I might say that to people who have a strong cultural sense of sharing resources and have a traditionally poor understanding of private property as is at the root of many traditional African cultures, including some communities in T&T, will have a hard time adhering to European derived legal and cultural laws that promote individualism and accumulation of private property. The point is in T&T we have never waited for marginalized people to change themselves, we have changed laws to suit our people, both of Indian and African origins.

Now that said, is it possible to govern marginalized T&T communities in a slightly different way to help ease the cultural transition of the more African elements toward the Euro-centric mainstream. If so how? A special community police that patrol the communites all hours of the night? Grants to people whose children do well in school, athletics, music, arts?  Give them some measure of autonomy or reign them in more? Legitimize and expand financial and cultural instruments used by the community?

Zandolie, please note that what follows is not intended to be an attack on you.
I cannot by any stretch of the imagination claim to know Morvant/Laventille and environs but I refuse to consider that in the year 2008, this place is some sort of vestige of some backwater generic tribal (West) African community (which may I add are a lot less backwater than we might imagine) which has trouble grasping the principles of private property and individual merit.

This notion is that much more difficult to accept when we consider that this community is often lamented for having neglected the whole "it takes a village to raise a child" mentality which would seem to be part and parcel of the whole generic tribal African West community identity.

Researchers have analysed the existence of a form of collective agricultural possession (and not necessarily) exploitation present in most parts of the Black rural west indies known as "family land". While it would be nonsensical to try to draw parallels between the rural and urban proletariat, I don't believe that there is any proof that this concept of family land engenders any kind ofignorance of the concept of private property.

Is Laventille et al an amoral province of Trinidad and Tobago on which we have unjustly sought to force our value and legal system while they were not ready for it? I doubt it.
It is my intime conviction that

1) Laventille is only a "pressure cooker" in which the social phenomenon that is sweeping Trinidad and Tobago is accelerated and modiifed. Concentrating only on this area is to get caught in the game of smoke and mirrors.

2)Societal breakdown begins not from the time that the law is not enforced, but from the time that moral and lawful behaviour no longer seems pertinent to those who are supposed to abide by it. This applies to businessmen, politicians, bank clerks, utility repairmen, CEPEP workers, unemployed youths, and school children.
While the general ineffiency and incompetence of the police and judicial system can only reinforce this lack of pertinence of the system of societal norms, it is not its main, nor its unique cause.

I don't litter because I understand why it is a bad idea and why I should not do so (reasons of respect of the environment, of my fellow men, public health) not because I risk a fine under the litter act.) The police and courts are supposed to be there for the minute minority of 'pathological and exceptional cases'
Unfortunately in Trinidad and Tobago, the day I need the threat of police to stop me from littering, all of Port of Spain is going to ressemble the Beetham, because that last barrier is never there.

In the same manner, Trinidad and Tobago has gone to a point where the law and moral behaviour not only seems pertinent to a large number of people, but criminal activity is profitable enough to make the risk worth running when it still is.

This is not only about people being shot, raped, stabbed, held up, weed and coke dealing, running of guns and ghost gangs, embezzling of funds. That is the visible tip of the iceberg. Below it lies a ton of parking and speeding infractions, shoplifting,  drunk driving offenses, sale of alcohol to minors, black marketing employment, tolerance of pirating as a legitmate source of making an 'honest' living, collecting money under false pretences, non representation of one's constitutency, proxemitism, political jamettism, kickbacks and refusal to follow accepted tendering practices.

All of the 'honest' Trinbagonians neeed to ask themselves where they stand, and what they stand for.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 27, 2008, 03:32:45 PM
midknight, mr cultural ambassador, it eh have nutten to do with de pnm, yuh right, but doh tell dat tuh dcs and others.

you have made my point and i thank you, albeit non deliberate.

i am sick and tired of finger pointing when this problem is cultural indeed.

jump, wave, misbehave, do what yuh want but doh stop de baccanhal....!

until T&T that is de people decide dat enough is enough and start policing deyself...steups, nutten changing

we go bad talk de government, write ah few kaiso and keep jumping up
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Brownsugar on February 28, 2008, 05:54:55 AM
I have one thing to say where all dis is concerned...

   
   ANARCHY!!!   
[/b]
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: JDB on February 28, 2008, 07:34:22 AM
midknight, mr cultural ambassador, it eh have nutten to do with de pnm, yuh right, but doh tell dat tuh dcs and others.

you have made my point and i thank you, albeit non deliberate.

i am sick and tired of finger pointing when this problem is cultural indeed.

jump, wave, misbehave, do what yuh want but doh stop de baccanhal....!

until T&T that is de people decide dat enough is enough and start policing deyself...steups, nutten changing

we go bad talk de government, write ah few kaiso and keep jumping up

True I agree with that completely. We have an almost complete social breakdown. I saying for years that we have a real me-first, in the moment mentality.

People don’t think about the consequences of their actions on others and because there is poor enforcement it is a free for all. We have too many single parents, absentee parents and a real sense of materialism among the population. I have also been saying that entertainment (which is massive business in TnT now) is the opium of the masses. People can’t get housing, crime high, roads in a mess, “the poor man suffering” yet everybody medicating theyself with fete and lime.

So it is true that crime is widespread and the Government can’t be there to stop all crime.

With that being said what we are talking about here is the administration of a Gov’t program that either is corrupt or has corrupt elements. Even if they don’t consider it a criminal issue it should at least be a issue of management where you have a social program that is being derailed and is not serving its intended purpose.

To me if the Gov’t is not prepared to be forceful in the administration or clean up of its own initiatives, how could we expect any success with the wider crime problem.

Citing the difficulty of the wider crime problem and deep-seated social causes of crime in this case is not good enough. Is kinda like saying you have a corrupt cabinet but yuh not worrying because corruption is a natural consequence of the larger societal decay.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on February 28, 2008, 07:56:06 AM
Midknight, very good post #78  there man :applause: :applause:

He getting Plan-ass
:rotfl:
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 28, 2008, 08:00:05 AM
Not at al JDB.  Remember the attempted coup?

Abu Bakr and he f**king minions killing and bombing and what de public doing?

De f**kers holding block party!  Curfew party Stae ah Emergency Party and de like.

We have never been truely independent, I have been saying this for years on this very board.

We have chinee building we roads, Cubans medicating we sick, Philipinos (as) changing we bandages, Yankees and Englishmen drilling we oil, Americans making we methanol and Potash...

we real reach.

Jump up, doh stop de fete....dat is we problem.

And it start from kiddie carnival.

It inculcated in we psyche.

I love T&T, but like many who post here, I doh think like a trini.  

The attitude must change....and if yuh sat de government does suffer from that way of thinking, that mentality...I say yuh damn right....dem is trinis afterall.

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: rastafari on February 28, 2008, 08:19:31 AM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI




Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 28, 2008, 09:45:29 AM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI





This is an exaggeration of the issue when it comes to how we behave at Carnival time, and at the same time an oversimplification of the wider general problems we are currently dealing with.  The vast majority of Trinbagonians know that anything that happens within that two-week window leading up to Ash Wednesday is contextualized, and that what you can get away with 'on de road', yuh better not be caught doing outside of those temporal parameters.

I missed the discussion in the Danah Alleyne thread, but I fail to see how you can tie that back to little children wining on de road...or even adults wining on de road for that matter.  Danah knew damn well she wasn't in no mas band.  That was ah little girl hot beyond her years who play fass and wanted to be in thing...then got a whole lot more than she bargained for.  But I won't rehash the debate here.

Moving on to Laventille and the powder keg that it represents in out midst.  Some are arguing that the problems there are a microcosmic auger of what's to come in Trinidad.  I vehemently disagree.  While I have joking in the past blamed all the crime on "de Vincies in Laventille", sadly there's a lot of truth to this.  A Vincy pardna of mine is an ER doctor in POS Gen. and he told me that on too many an occasion these young bad boys will come in the hospital shot up and in talking to them he'll find that their parents, or some close relation is Vincy.  Now is that to say that all the crime is being committed by Vincies?  Of course not.  The larger point is that a significant segment of the population lacks any emotional investment in the community, and some of that is the result of a foreign element that has never bought into the community concept in Laventille.  To be sure, a large number of native (stretching back to dey granny nen nen) also exhibit this malaise, and which came first or which has the bigger influence on whom is anyone's guess.  This lack of 'buy in' means that there's but a superficial sense of community, exacerbated by the fact that there is little pride in the community.  Sure they'll claim Picton and John John in some misguided approximation of the turf wars of LA, Kingston and Portmore...but I doubt there's any real pride in Lavanty the way Rudder talked about it in Hammer, and the way it has so been celebrated in other parts of the culture (pan) in Trinidad.

In short, while there are issues at play in Laventille which pop up in other parts of the country as well, Laventille is it's own special cauldron of problems and in no way (in my own perspective) indicative of some larger problem at hand in Trinidad.  General economic depression (I won't call it poverty- plenty people in TnT doh know what real poverty is, despite their protestations), general selfishness, lack of consideration for one's fellow man, general lawlessness in a word, exists.  Laventille is pure phosforous and gunpowder where the rest ah Trinidad might as well be 'fun snaps'.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: rastafari on February 28, 2008, 10:24:28 AM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI





This is an exaggeration of the issue when it comes to how we behave at Carnival time, and at the same time an oversimplification of the wider general problems we are currently dealing with.  The vast majority of Trinbagonians know that anything that happens within that two-week window leading up to Ash Wednesday is contextualized, and that what you can get away with 'on de road', yuh better not be caught doing outside of those temporal parameters.

I missed the discussion in the Danah Alleyne thread, but I fail to see how you can tie that back to little children wining on de road...or even adults wining on de road for that matter.  Danah knew damn well she wasn't in no mas band.  That was ah little girl hot beyond her years who play fass and wanted to be in thing...then got a whole lot more than she bargained for.  But I won't rehash the debate here.

Moving on to Laventille and the powder keg that it represents in out midst.  Some are arguing that the problems there are a microcosmic auger of what's to come in Trinidad.  I vehemently disagree.  While I have joking in the past blamed all the crime on "de Vincies in Laventille", sadly there's a lot of truth to this.  A Vincy pardna of mine is an ER doctor in POS Gen. and he told me that on too many an occasion these young bad boys will come in the hospital shot up and in talking to them he'll find that their parents, or some close relation is Vincy.  Now is that to say that all the crime is being committed by Vincies?  Of course not.  The larger point is that a significant segment of the population lacks any emotional investment in the community, and some of that is the result of a foreign element that has never bought into the community concept in Laventille.  To be sure, a large number of native (stretching back to dey granny nen nen) also exhibit this malaise, and which came first or which has the bigger influence on whom is anyone's guess.  This lack of 'buy in' means that there's but a superficial sense of community, exacerbated by the fact that there is little pride in the community.  Sure they'll claim Picton and John John in some misguided approximation of the turf wars of LA, Kingston and Portmore...but I doubt there's any real pride in Lavanty the way Rudder talked about it in Hammer, and the way it has so been celebrated in other parts of the culture (pan) in Trinidad.

In short, while there are issues at play in Laventille which pop up in other parts of the country as well, Laventille is it's own special cauldron of problems and in no way (in my own perspective) indicative of some larger problem at hand in Trinidad.  General economic depression (I won't call it poverty- plenty people in TnT doh know what real poverty is, despite their protestations), general selfishness, lack of consideration for one's fellow man, general lawlessness in a word, exists.  Laventille is pure phosforous and gunpowder where the rest ah Trinidad might as well be 'fun snaps'.

Bakes, i am just backing up Truetrini's comment, that it starts at Kiddies carnival. He wrote it in one of the above posts.

I have seen worst than what Danah Alleyne did in a nightclub, being done boy young girls most likely under the age of 16; at carnival time in full view of the public and this is with grown men.

Respeck! Bake and Shark :beermug:


JAH BLESS RASTAFARI



Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 28, 2008, 10:28:25 AM

Bakes, i am just backing up Truetrini's comment, that it starts at Kiddies carnival. He wrote it in one of the above posts.

I have seen worst than what Danah Alleyne did in a nightclub, being done boy young girls most likely under the age of 16; at carnival time in full view of the public and this is with grown men.

Respeck! Bake and Shark :beermug:


JAH BLESS RASTAFARI






Cool thing  :beermug:
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Swima on February 28, 2008, 11:25:21 AM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI







On the one hand we can say it starts from Kiddies Carnival, but what are we to make of the influence of outside cultures. In a naighbouring thread we discuss the influence of voilent music from outside our country influenceing the minds of our youth. Do we think kiddies carnival's influence far outweighs the recently adopted passa passa syndrome? We've seen the videos... and who ehn see could easily access a link on this board. Besides that, anyone here ever went to a water colours over the august holidays?

Overall, we may look at kiddies carnival as the reason why we have a happy go lucky attitude toward very serious issues, as TT pointed out. But to link that to Dayna is a bit of a stretch. That is simply a lack of morals among youths who have already experienced, seen or done worse.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 28, 2008, 02:32:43 PM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI







On the one hand we can say it starts from Kiddies Carnival, but what are we to make of the influence of outside cultures. In a naighbouring thread we discuss the influence of voilent music from outside our country influenceing the minds of our youth. Do we think kiddies carnival's influence far outweighs the recently adopted passa passa syndrome? We've seen the videos... and who ehn see could easily access a link on this board. Besides that, anyone here ever went to a water colours over the august holidays?

Overall, we may look at kiddies carnival as the reason why we have a happy go lucky attitude toward very serious issues, as TT pointed out. But to link that to Dayna is a bit of a stretch. That is simply a lack of morals among youths who have already experienced, seen or done worse.

swima I eh so sure is dat much of a stretch.  Our music tends to follow outside influences too.  Our soca is starting to sound like reggae to be truthful.  The wining on little girls by little boys frankly..to me is quite disgusting and is part of the education of youth.

To say that outside influences are soley to blame for the degeneration of our society is no doubt wrong, it is but one contributing factor.  The breakdown of the family system, particularly among the lower classes, patronage from white Hall, and an impotent police force, failure of the church to act as a moral buffer, too many smart men looking tuh tief money, a jump and wave attitude all make a dangerous brew.

Certainly there are things the government can do to improve the safety and security of citizens, like installing cameras in high profile areas, a vibrant and highly visible constabulatary, better pay and training for police and members of the defence force to including proper screening of applicants for jobs within these services.

A more powerful CoP,  a better judiciary, better protection for witnesses, more police vehicles, and a better health care system can all help decrease crime at some level.

The main issue I see that face the government is the educational system.  It has deteoriated from the time I left school to now.  I remember boys sitting down in big study groups, not beating de books eh, but assaulting them, in an effort to increase their chances at success.  If there were school yard fights it usually ended up with the combatants being on very friendly terms later on, not knifings, shootings and wholescale assaults.

There needs to be parenting classes and assistance to aprents who fall short, as well a better trained social welfare force, the social workers in T&T are f**king jokers.  I know of a case where the case worker was more interested in f**king de single mother than alleviating her stressors and helping her take care of her chirren.

Well there are more examples of what i feel the Government can do, and as far as I kow, they are taking some steps to address some of the issues I just highlighted.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Deeks on February 28, 2008, 05:22:59 PM
This is an interesting topic. Everybody seems to have answers but we are unable to find a solution to what is happening in Laventille/Morvant in particular and TT on the whole. When did this problem started to happen, why was it not "nipped in the bud". If the authorities(mostly PNM) had the foresight to send the police to make arrest (and kill) the so-called gang leaders, there would be cries of police brutality and oppression. Now the situation is out of hand we are fustrated and do not have a clue on how to stem the tide of this mayhem. You guys are correct in pointing out that the sense of community in those areas seem to be non-existent. There seems to be little prospect of gainfull employment(except CEPEP). The so-called "elders" appears not to have any influence with the "youngers".
           Blaming jam and wine soca and carnival as the root of our problem is a joke. Yes, some of our music is vulgar and total crap. But we are also force-fed a lot more vulgarity, voilence and total crap from foreign. But we claim we are helpless. That is not true. We love foreign. Local ain't good enough. TT is a country still trying to find its way culturally. The East Indians want to have their seat at the cultural table. It is a pulling and togging. Some thing is evolving. I do not not know what it is. But we are creating a culture. Just thank God that violence between the peoples has not emerge in a big way. The verdict is still out on TT. A lot of people like to compare us with JA. That is fair enough, but up to point. The racial dynamic are different. If JA was 50% East Indian or 50% white, what would there culture be like? We can only speculate.
           I from Quarry st. EDR. I used to walk POS anytime, all hours of the night, up to 10 yrs ago.  That is freedom. That is all I want to do when I go home. Well they say, I can't do that anymore. You have to be inside early o'clock and have eyes at the back of your head when you walking up the road. Fellahs, that is not freedom, that is paranoia. It have enough paranoia in DC Meto.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: rastafari on February 28, 2008, 06:15:45 PM
  Together we aspire  together we achieve 

I don't know about anybody else but when i was young, i used to think that jumping up in a band with a woman was a big part of our culture. I used to see my aunties, older cousins even my mum wining in a band behind a music truck.

Now remember this is what a youthman does use as benchmark towards manhood. If yuh wine on ah woman in the band, yuh good to go that is yours for a while on the day. Carnival is a flirtacious time promoting promiscuity, fact!

Now as an adult i can see the corruption in that. I accept that most people carnival experiences when they were young are not the same. However one of the main things about carnival is that the kids are simply doing, what they see the adults have been doing.

I forget, is we culture!

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Bakes on February 28, 2008, 06:54:00 PM
Together we aspire  together we achieve 

I don't know about anybody else but when i was young, i used to think that jumping up in a band with a woman was a big part of our culture. I used to see my aunties, older cousins even my mum wining in a band behind a music truck.

Now remember this is what a youthman does use as benchmark towards manhood. If yuh wine on ah woman in the band, yuh good to go that is yours for a while on the day. Carnival is a flirtacious time promoting promiscuity, fact!

Now as an adult i can see the corruption in that. I accept that most people carnival experiences when they were young are not the same. However one of the main things about carnival is that the kids are simply doing, what they see the adults have been doing.

I forget, is we culture!

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI

I again fail to see your point.  Nutten wrong with wining up wid ah woman and getting yuh totee hard...I did it occasionally as ah yute when ah wasn't getting blank and I turn out fine.  Yes that is we culture, but you acting like that is what defines us or something.  We are more than just a product of our culture...we are the sum of our individual experiences, to include our experiences and upbringing at home.  I understand that as an adult you may be more conservative in your outlook now, but your own puritanical notions (I believe) are forcing you far to right of middle...condemning what you see as "slackness" and attributing all social decay to that cause...when in fact there may be no causal relationship at all.  Just your own moral leanings bearing fruit in your personal bias.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Swima on February 28, 2008, 07:09:47 PM
And it start from kiddie carnival.

Is long time i saying that Truetrini, yuh right but they won't admit that the way adults behave at carnival is a bad example because is part of we culture.

When i say that in the Danah Alleyne thread, they try to battle meh but i ended up getting my point across.

It alright for little children to wine down the place because is we culture. Some of them wining with big people.
It is right because it's our culture but it is wrong in a nightclub. What Akon did i see worse than that at carnival time with big men and little girls.

To top it off  big people are usually watching. That is we culture, one big set of hypocrites.

We culture is a culture of hypocrisy Truetrini.

Just like the men on here, who are always talking about black rights, black power, slavery, NJACC etc. Then they sleeping with the enemy. One big set of hypocrites.

JAH BLESS RASTAFARI







On the one hand we can say it starts from Kiddies Carnival, but what are we to make of the influence of outside cultures. In a naighbouring thread we discuss the influence of voilent music from outside our country influenceing the minds of our youth. Do we think kiddies carnival's influence far outweighs the recently adopted passa passa syndrome? We've seen the videos... and who ehn see could easily access a link on this board. Besides that, anyone here ever went to a water colours over the august holidays?

Overall, we may look at kiddies carnival as the reason why we have a happy go lucky attitude toward very serious issues, as TT pointed out. But to link that to Dayna is a bit of a stretch. That is simply a lack of morals among youths who have already experienced, seen or done worse.

swima I eh so sure is dat much of a stretch.  Our music tends to follow outside influences too.  Our soca is starting to sound like reggae to be truthful.  The wining on little girls by little boys frankly..to me is quite disgusting and is part of the education of youth.

To say that outside influences are soley to blame for the degeneration of our society is no doubt wrong, it is but one contributing factor.  The breakdown of the family system, particularly among the lower classes, patronage from white Hall, and an impotent police force, failure of the church to act as a moral buffer, too many smart men looking tuh tief money, a jump and wave attitude all make a dangerous brew.

Certainly there are things the government can do to improve the safety and security of citizens, like installing cameras in high profile areas, a vibrant and highly visible constabulatary, better pay and training for police and members of the defence force to including proper screening of applicants for jobs within these services.

A more powerful CoP,  a better judiciary, better protection for witnesses, more police vehicles, and a better health care system can all help decrease crime at some level.

The main issue I see that face the government is the educational system.  It has deteoriated from the time I left school to now.  I remember boys sitting down in big study groups, not beating de books eh, but assaulting them, in an effort to increase their chances at success.  If there were school yard fights it usually ended up with the combatants being on very friendly terms later on, not knifings, shootings and wholescale assaults.

There needs to be parenting classes and assistance to aprents who fall short, as well a better trained social welfare force, the social workers in T&T are f**king jokers.  I know of a case where the case worker was more interested in f**king de single mother than alleviating her stressors and helping her take care of her chirren.

Well there are more examples of what i feel the Government can do, and as far as I kow, they are taking some steps to address some of the issues I just highlighted.

Noted. Which is why I placed as much emphasis on the outside influences as well. The link between Dayna and kiddies carnival becomes a lot more watered down in my mind, but I understand what you are saying, and yes if we are to scrutinize the entire picture their are linkages everywhere, and that is why the solution has become such a difficult thing to find. We are unable to tackle the issues one step at a time.

I'll let you in on something. My degree is not in social work, though it is in Criminal Justice with a Minor in Sociology, and upon returning to T&T, I thought, why not try to get into some form of social work and see how I can lend assistance to dealing with crime especially at the youth level. Well I was outright rejected due to my degree not being in the field of study, no matter how noble my intentions were, nor my wilingness to train while being employed. Yet you will find employees within that force like the one you cited in your post still earing their pay at the end of the month. Brain drain is becoming a more popular subject every week in the papers, but the young fresh minds who want to exact change, the real patriots who say 'I have the belly to stand up to the old guard', they simply are not given a chance. At least not up until recently.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on February 28, 2008, 07:43:41 PM
see there is the problem, no vision, and no insight.  For too long we have been doing the wrong things the right way.

Trinidad needs tuh start doing the right things...and it will be easy to do it de right way!

dey coulda hire yuh and tell yuh tuh wuk part time on yuh social work degree.

dey let ah good mind float away. and I eh saying dat lightly.

I really feel dey lorse ah good and worthy employee dey.

But as we acknowledge, dat is why we in de shit we in today!

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on March 01, 2008, 07:51:39 PM
Now that we have actually started talking sense, I don't really wan't this thread to die...
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on March 04, 2008, 08:46:27 AM
More wood for the fire...

http://www.guardian.co.tt/ira.html

Gangs that bling

Quote
The Government does plenty for Laventille. People have Cepep, houses, water, cable, sports facilities, trade workshops, music, cookery classes, Best Village. Vanity has them shooting. The boys want a car with big music, big guns, bling.

—Laventille resident.

If it’s a war of guns, the police will lose. Lack of amenities isn’t the problem. Nor is the absence of jobs. It’s about upward mobility. Money.

Author of Freakoconomics, Stephen Levitt has analysed the economics of a cocaine-selling street gang in Chicago. Stephen Levitt believes any street gang operates like a franchise of McDonald’s or KFC. The hierarchy is flat. At the top is the local gang leader. Below him, three people: the accountant, the adviser and an enforcer/“human relations” man.

In the next tier there are the soldiers, the men working behind the counter.

Finally, there are hangers-on, young, inexperienced tag-alongs.

Levitt found the local gang leader made ten times more than he would in regular employment. The three middle managers made more than minimum wage.

The foot soldiers made less than minimum wage. Most live at home and work part-time in regular employment, in addition to being members of gangs to survive.

Apply this to Trinidad and Tobago. Interviews suggest this scenario: The young boys who are getting shot can’t afford bling. They are wearing rubber slippers, living in shacks. They are the foot soldiers and hanger-ons.

In the early 1990s, when URP was expanding, “leaders” of the programme gained control of up to five gangs.

War pay

With this government contract, instead of 20 street soldiers, he could employ 50 more with URP money. He still paid them less than minimum wage, because he is taking his cut.

Like any businessman with an excess of labour, he looks to expand. In this case, the territory where he can sell drugs.

Unfortunately, that territory is occupied by someone just like him who also has a URP contract, and is looking to expand. Because these are criminal activities, this isn’t easy.

You can’t buy them out, can’t compete and sell better goods. So you invade their territory and hold it. That’s where the guns come in. The number of guns available is a reflection of demand.

The men who in the past smuggled whiskey will bring guns. It’s just business.

What’s in it for the young boys from the age of 15? The answer is simple. With their lack of educational qualifications they will be stuck in a minimum-wage system for the rest of their lives.

So they make a rational choice for themselves. Keep one foot in the formal system such as URP, with a reasonable income, live at home, and stay in the gang, in the hopes of rising to be a gang leader, and making ten times more than minimum wage.

The odds are high for a wage hike, since he is just competing with 35 people, most of whom will die on the job, compared to a formal economy where the possibility of rising without education is zero.

In times of war, the pay goes up. War is not the interest of the top man, since sales of drugs drop, but it is in the interest of the shooters to keep war going.

The riskier the venture, the greater the pay. The more shooters attack rival gangs the more likely the boss man will make you a senior man in that territory.

The more you kill, the more social rank and power you have amongst your peers. More pay brings girls, fancy cars, music, bling. A power they would never have otherwise.

Unless the Government can quickly educate thousands of semi-literate young men countrywide, with the hope of being powerful in the formal economy, our 90-strong, mostly illiterate gangs will continue to mushroom, flourish and kill in cold blood.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ZANDOLIE on March 04, 2008, 11:01:00 AM
see there is the problem, no vision, and no insight. For too long we have been doing the wrong things the right way.

Trinidad needs tuh start doing the right things...and it will be easy to do it de right way!

dey coulda hire yuh and tell yuh tuh wuk part time on yuh social work degree.

dey let ah good mind float away. and I eh saying dat lightly.

I really feel dey lorse ah good and worthy employee dey.

But as we acknowledge, dat is why we in de shit we in today!





TT, yuh spot on here IMO

In the rush to adopt to the customs of British style social values, we have always neglected what works for us Trinbagonians. I'm not slandering the parlimentary system or other British/Eurpoean social structures, but we have inherited a system and are placing too much emphasis on fitting into its imposed structures instead of molding the system to fit our realities.

This is partly the reason America became an industrial power. They discarded much of the superflous, old world values and created institutions which were prerequisite to the expansion of both macro and micro economies and which reflected the social values of its people.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on March 04, 2008, 06:36:41 PM
PART 2
Gangs that bling
(http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2008-03-04/ira.html)
by   
Ira Mathur
www.iramathur.org
Trinidad Guardian
Sunday 2nd March, 2008


The Government does plenty for Laventille. People have Cepep, houses, water, cable, sports facilities, trade workshops, music, cookery classes, Best Village. Vanity has them shooting. The boys want a car with big music, big guns, bling.

—Laventille resident.


If it’s a war of guns, the police will lose. Lack of amenities isn’t the problem. Nor is the absence of jobs. It’s about upward mobility. Money.

Author of Freakoconomics, Stephen Levitt has analysed the economics of a cocaine-selling street gang in Chicago. Stephen Levitt believes any street gang operates like a franchise of McDonald’s or KFC. The hierarchy is flat. At the top is the local gang leader. Below him, three people: the accountant, the adviser and an enforcer/“human relations” man.

In the next tier there are the soldiers, the men working behind the counter.

Finally, there are hangers-on, young, inexperienced tag-alongs.

Levitt found the local gang leader made ten times more than he would in regular employment. The three middle managers made more than minimum wage.

The foot soldiers made less than minimum wage. Most live at home and work part-time in regular employment, in addition to being members of gangs to survive.

Apply this to Trinidad and Tobago. Interviews suggest this scenario: The young boys who are getting shot can’t afford bling. They are wearing rubber slippers, living in shacks. They are the foot soldiers and hanger-ons.

In the early 1990s, when URP was expanding, “leaders” of the programme gained control of up to five gangs.

War pay

With this government contract, instead of 20 street soldiers, he could employ 50 more with URP money. He still paid them less than minimum wage, because he is taking his cut.

Like any businessman with an excess of labour, he looks to expand. In this case, the territory where he can sell drugs.

Unfortunately, that territory is occupied by someone just like him who also has a URP contract, and is looking to expand. Because these are criminal activities, this isn’t easy.

You can’t buy them out, can’t compete and sell better goods. So you invade their territory and hold it. That’s where the guns come in. The number of guns available is a reflection of demand.

The men who in the past smuggled whiskey will bring guns. It’s just business.

What’s in it for the young boys from the age of 15? The answer is simple. With their lack of educational qualifications they will be stuck in a minimum-wage system for the rest of their lives.

So they make a rational choice for themselves. Keep one foot in the formal system such as URP, with a reasonable income, live at home, and stay in the gang, in the hopes of rising to be a gang leader, and making ten times more than minimum wage.

The odds are high for a wage hike, since he is just competing with 35 people, most of whom will die on the job, compared to a formal economy where the possibility of rising without education is zero.

In times of war, the pay goes up. War is not the interest of the top man, since sales of drugs drop, but it is in the interest of the shooters to keep war going.

The riskier the venture, the greater the pay. The more shooters attack rival gangs the more likely the boss man will make you a senior man in that territory.

The more you kill, the more social rank and power you have amongst your peers. More pay brings girls, fancy cars, music, bling. A power they would never have otherwise.

Unless the Government can quickly educate thousands of semi-literate young men countrywide, with the hope of being powerful in the formal economy, our 90-strong, mostly illiterate gangs will continue to mushroom, flourish and kill in cold blood.

www.iramathur.org
©2004-2005 Trinidad Publishing Company Limited
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on March 04, 2008, 10:19:43 PM
she come back with that URP contract talk eh....???
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Midknight on March 05, 2008, 02:46:02 PM
she come back with that URP contract talk eh....???

context :

"in the early 1990's"
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: truetrini on March 05, 2008, 03:25:11 PM
she come back with that URP contract talk eh....???

context :

"in the early 1990's"

in context it began then and continues now...why else develop the theme of foot soldiers who remain on the bottom tier?

and where does the gang leader get the money from now?

doh try dat...I saw the 90's ting, but read on...and if the lower tier foot soldiers make so little how dey blingingZ?  remember the first part of the story, they are met at the bank and given $100.00!
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: pecan on March 07, 2008, 08:01:14 AM
I have not followed this thread in detail .. so this may have been posted already .. if os, let me know and I will delete it


Trinidad bishop (Anglican) calls for moral regeneration: CEN 2.22.08 p 8.  February 21, 2008

Posted by geoconger in Church of England Newspaper, Church of the Province of the West Indies, Crime.


The Bishop of Trinidad  has issued a call for the moral regeneration of the Caribbean island nation, which is in the midst of a gang and drugs fueled crime wave.

Gang violence had spawned an “enormous wave of terror” that had swept “across the landscape” Bishop Calvin Bess told the congregation of Port of Spain’s Holy Trinity Cathedral on Feb 17.  However the rise in youth crime was not only a failure of policing, but a collapse of the moral order.  “If life has no meaning” for criminals, “how can death have any meaning?” the bishop asked.

Trinidad and Tobago has seen an upsurge in crime over the past decade.  In 2000 the police service recorded 120 murders–a figure that had risen to 388 by the end of 2007.  Nine murders were committed on Jan 1.

Last month the government pledged a renewed effort to tackle the violence.  National Security Minister Martin Joseph told Parliament that British police were being sent to the twin-island nation to train the constabulary, and Prime Minister Patrick Manning said the government “would win the fight” against crime through the acquisition of sophisticated electronics hardware that would establish a “security blanket” around the nation.

However, opposition leaders and the media have urged a more vigorous response.  The “most critical issue facing the nation is gang violence,” the Sunday Guardian said on Jan 13, as many lived “in fear for their lives with no confidence in the capacity of police officers to bring any relief to the level of crime that is now a part of their way of life.”

“We have wept enough, suffered enough, far too many lives have been snuffed out.  I appeal to the youth of this land who are caught up in this culture of death to come out of the darkness,” Bishop Bess said.  “Your strength, your energy can be put to much better use.”

Improved policing was but part of the solution.  The Christian transformation of society was necessary so that those who had taken to a life of crime could be redeemed and reformed before they struck, the bishop said.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Swima on March 07, 2008, 08:59:24 AM
Story time...

Just came in from Piarco and picking up d wife from a short business trip. So as we reach Port of Spain out by Bagwansingh's dey she tells me to lock the doors. Now I know she does be lil paranoid and with good reason as a young female. As she say that, we see two youths darting from the traffic and into the abandoned shed and through to Sea Lots. A man jump out his car in half a mind to follow them. These two youths break the man glass and try to tief something out of his car. Mind you this happened in broad daylight and rush hour (yes 10 AM is rushhour in Trinidad cause traffic doh stop especially on a Friday). The brazened way in which the crime occurred really has me thinking.

A man got shot at 8:30 AM on Duke Street on Monday. He died on the scene. When I worked in POS, my job was on Duke street and on any given day I might have been walking to the drug store on the coner of Duke and Charlotte at that time and could have witnessed the killing or been accidentally shot like the woman buying DVD's a few weeks ago.

I am convinced that we are headed for something really ugly really soon if we ehn there already. No respect for fellow man and no fear of the law is a deadly combination. When you add the fact that there is a heavy youth involvement in crime it make the mix even more potent as the brashness will continue and the borders will be further encroached upon. The only feasible way to make the change is by taking away some civil liberties. Constant street and highway patrols. Shake downs of suspicious looking people. Curfews in certain parts of the country. Time to make these fools and cowards realize that this is not their playground and that bullies will be met with swift and harsh punishment. We wasting f##kin time and sorely misguided if we think that we have a long way to go before this shit reaches our front door. It has reached many already. The Keith Noel committee was a god idea but is time to make some real noise. We need to shut down town for a day. Nobody work. Do something to bring attention to the situation because dem fellas on top not getting the message. Nothing is more important that the wlefare of the citizens. Not money, not anything! We gone too damn far man.

Ah tellin allyuh if a man touch one of my loved ones I going to kill him and is me dey go hadda lock up.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: WestCoast on March 07, 2008, 09:07:54 AM
well said Swima
lets HOPE that the powers that be do something much more constructive than removal of civil liberties

start back the youth training programs (someone awhile back said that they stopped them?).
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: Swima on March 07, 2008, 09:11:16 AM
well said Swima
lets HOPE that the powers that be do something much more constructive than removal of civil liberties

start back the youth training programs (someone awhile back said that they stopped them?).

WC, I am a a big advocate for giving a man a second chance. Rehabilitation is great. But some of those beasts will not respond to youth training etc. Maybe the "purse snatchers" i encountered this morning would respond to it in time, but it have plenty worse out dere. They are frighteningly disgusting individuals.
Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: ribbit on March 09, 2008, 10:36:29 PM
scene from A Bronx Tale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxCUfiyMW-g&NR=1

Title: Re: Gangs
Post by: dcs on March 25, 2008, 11:49:18 PM


Joseph: Gangs may be fighting over projects (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161298610)
Juhel Browne jbrowne@trinidadexpress.com
Trinidad Express
Wednesday, March 26th 2008


   

National Security Minister Martin Joseph says "it is very possible" criminal gangs identified by the Government as the source of the nation's escalating homicide rate may be fighting over State-funded social programmes.

Joseph was speaking at a press conference yesterday at the National Security Ministry's head office in Port of Spain where he also said that homicides have been on the rise since September 2007.

Although Joseph did not identify any specific social programme, on February 22, Justice Anthony Carmona in a judgment in a criminal case, said that while the Unemployment Employment Relief (URP) does serve a social purpose, there is rank criminality in its bowels which needs to be addressed by the authorities.

Critics of the URP, including members of the Opposition, have long claimed it has been infiltrated by criminal elements.

Works and Transport Minister Colm Imbert who is the URP's line minister has however said that the programme is not a criminal enterprise, even though he acknowledged that some of its participants have criminal records.

Joseph was asked yesterday if criminal gangs were not only fighting over physical turf but what people are describing as contracts in the social services programmes.

"It is possible. It is very possible," Joseph said.

He then continued, "I don't want to sound academic...the key to effective law enforcement is an appreciation and an understanding of the environment, what is happening in the environment and the ability of law enforcement to adjust quickly to the developments that are taking place in the environment."

Joseph said that there were people who spend their entire lives "bent on trying to get quick money" or try to "get rich without working" and in the process distress law abiding citizens.

He said such persons "spend their time looking for new and better ways" to get rich quick, adding, "Law enforcement has to always be in step."

Joseph said that while criminal gangs are not new to Trinidad and Tobago, the environment in which they operate is.

"What is new is that, again as part of the development that is taking place and the ease with which...persons who are bent on criminal activity can now access their weapons of choice. That is what is new and it is not just unique to Trinidad and Tobago, it also part of a Caribbean situation," Joseph said.
Title: Gangs in T&T Thread
Post by: Flex on August 27, 2011, 05:29:44 AM
Duo held in $9,600 suite
2 of ‘biggest gang leaders’ arrested at Hyatt
Gail Alexander (Guardian)


CoP Dwayne Gibbs A total of 462 persons have been arrested in this week’s state of emergency operations, including two persons described as two of T&T’s “biggest gang leaders”, who were arrested at the Hyatt Hotel, Port-of-Spain, yesterday morning.

The two had booked into the hotel’s US$1,600 (TT$9,600) a night presidential suite since last Sunday when the state of emergency was announced, a Government spokesman confirmed. The spokesman said the location of the persons became known after they engaged numerous call girls during the week. The two, along with a female gang member, were arrested yesterday by security forces in the operation “Disrupt and Dismantle Gangs”, which has been mounted since the state of emergency began. Government yesterday described it as a “major breakthrough” in operations.

At yesterday’s daily media briefing at the National Security Ministry, Port-of-Spain, Minister John Sandy said among the multiple arrests of the last 24 hours, were two “notorious” gang leaders. Sandy said a third gang leader, who fled to Tobago, also was arrested. He said even though people were migrating to other areas, security forces also had those covered.

On whether a national threat from criminals was still imminent, Attorney General Anand Ramlogan said: “Unless and until violent crime was reduced, the state of emergency is one that is bearing fruit.” Police Commissioner Dwayne Gibbs gave the cumulative total of 462 detainees for the week. Gibbs said this included 190 gang leaders in the operation “to disrupt and dismantle gangs”.

Gibbs said the last 24-hour operation figure had netted 147 more people. Of this number 75 were related to gangs. Gibbs also noted eight others (involved in homicides), 21 (drug-related offences) four (curfew-breaking), one (firearm-related offences), 19 (serious offences), four (outstanding warrants) and 150 rounds of ammunition seized. While Gibbs declined details of the Hyatt arrests, a Government spokesman said the two persons arrested yesterday were from one of the biggest gangs in T&T. They said the unit was involved in drug-trafficking and gun-running and had ties extending to North and South America.  The gang is based in east Port-of-Spain/Laventille, they added.

A spokesman involved in yesterday’s arrests said the gang members were among a number who had checked into the hotel last weekend and were “coming and going.” They said orders were placed at “some of the finest restaurants for champagne and food” during the persons’ stay. The spokesman said those arrested included a female gang member, listed in the gang’s “corporate structure” as the gang’s “public relations officer”, earning a salary of $35,000 monthly. At yesterday’s media briefing, Ramlogan said the perception of gangs should not be confined to places like Nelson Street or “The Plannings”.

Ramlogan added: “You’ll be shocked at where some of them are housed and the extent of the luxury in which they live. Check their bank accounts, the carat of gold they wear, the amount of house they buy in cash and the number of girlfriends they ‘minding.’ “They have four and five residences and they move from place to place. “He said local studies show dominant gangs have a leader and sub-commanders and also had “cells”. Some often overwhelmed some gangs by violence, bringing in guns to recruit youths. Ramlogan added: “The cash they get from crime, some are used to establish dance halls and nightclubs. They promote fetes and concerts, bringing in foreign artistes, and make millions. They sponsor community activities like basketball tournaments.

“Some form legitimate businesses and promise jobs. They don’t wear a jacket and tie but they have more money than the man in jacket and tie,” Ramlogan added. He said casinos had reported that they earned $600,000 to $700,00 nightly from gang members. Ramlogan said the gangs’ structure was copied from American counterparts and some had a “board of directors” in their big business operations. Gibbs said police had to sort through all the people and evidence obtained, so far, “so who’s who in the zoo will take a little work,” he added. “So far we are seeing successes. During the time of the state of emergency there has been some crime but to a limited extent and we intend to continue dismantling the gangs,” Gibbs said.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: frico on August 27, 2011, 05:53:55 AM
Well what can anyone say bout that coz it appears like they are getting closer to the Mr.Big....come eeeen posters lets hear yuh.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: TdotTrini on August 27, 2011, 05:56:27 AM
Well what can anyone say bout that coz it appears like they are getting closer to the Mr.Big....come eeeen posters lets hear yuh.

Nah dat issa long shot.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: frico on August 27, 2011, 07:42:06 AM
Tell yuh what,if they catch that Mr.Big it could unravel plenty other skanks that taking place in TT.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: STEUPS!! on August 27, 2011, 07:49:19 AM
Well what can anyone say bout that coz it appears like they are getting closer to the Mr.Big....come eeeen posters lets hear yuh.

u eh serious. D AG cud say what the fack he want. u have any evidence that he telling the truth? i cud understand them not revealing the identities of the persons allegedly held, for obvious reasons. but until they are brought before the court and charged then the AG et al at this point only spewing hot air
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: frico on August 27, 2011, 08:08:01 AM
Well what can anyone say bout that coz it appears like they are getting closer to the Mr.Big....come eeeen posters lets hear yuh.

u eh serious. D AG cud say what the fack he want. u have any evidence that he telling the truth? i cud understand them not revealing the identities of the persons allegedly held, for obvious reasons. but until they are brought before the court and charged then the AG et al at this point only spewing hot air
I get it yuza a PNM till yuh die. ;D
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: STEUPS!! on August 27, 2011, 08:10:17 AM
Well what can anyone say bout that coz it appears like they are getting closer to the Mr.Big....come eeeen posters lets hear yuh.

u eh serious. D AG cud say what the fack he want. u have any evidence that he telling the truth? i cud understand them not revealing the identities of the persons allegedly held, for obvious reasons. but until they are brought before the court and charged then the AG et al at this point only spewing hot air
I get it yuza a PNM till yuh die. ;D


so to you anybody who doesnt swallow what this government says wholesale is PNM? OK
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 27, 2011, 09:17:51 AM
Ok, politics aside, I am impressed about the Hyatt arrests. I also want to know when that $35,000 pm PR job was advertised, coz I would have applied!!

Seriously, hiding out at the Hyatt, hiring call girls and ordering champagne etc isn't exactly keeping below the radar. I can only guess that these guys felt protected by the police so as long as they were not in the hot spots they felt safe. I do feel that a side effect of this SOE will be the arrest of several police who are on the gangs payroll.

I know we can only go by the govt propaganda, but I am beginning to feel this could be a worthy excercise, though I will never accept it was properly planned and excercised.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Bakes on August 27, 2011, 10:30:42 AM
Express reports it's a $900 TT a night room... Guardian magically reports it being 10x as expensive.  The kicker is Sandy was in the same hotel at the same time giving a speech... and didn't know anything about the raid, nor did Gibbs.  Allyuh taking down a "Mr. Big" and neither the Min. of National Security nor the CoP know about it?  And the Min. of National Security on the premises?


...sad part is that people actually lapping up this nonsense.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: College on August 27, 2011, 10:46:04 AM
I dont believe this "Hyatt duo held "story as reported... a lot of things dont make sense in this story.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 27, 2011, 11:02:20 AM
Express reports it's a $900 TT a night room... Guardian magically reports it being 10x as expensive.  The kicker is Sandy was in the same hotel at the same time giving a speech... and didn't know anything about the raid, nor did Gibbs.  Allyuh taking down a "Mr. Big" and neither the Min. of National Security nor the CoP know about it?  And the Min. of National Security on the premises?


...sad part is that people actually lapping up this nonsense.

Thought Hyatt prices started higher than $900???
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: truetrini on August 27, 2011, 11:16:18 AM
Thse captured in the Hyatt...supposed they are mid level men.  If yuh is ah Mr. Big yuh eh go dutty yuh hands with no street operations.  Yuh go get crew leaders to manage yuh thugs, they go hande distribution, managing yuh pushers and doing yuh enforcing, protecting yuh turf!

If yuh is ah Mr. Big yuh go send yuh crew leaders on a hiatus during times like dis...dem men dey could possibly be just mid men.

This is not to say that if dey is jes middle men is not an important haul, the intel and the psychological advantages are wonderful.

I also find dat no indians, no reputed drug over lord syrians getting tied up, is only little street niggas...who vex lorse, dias de impression I and many getting here, and from de AG's own mout, is black men from single families doing dis....

ANYWAYS:


One of the key facets of creating any serious attempts at disrupting the drug trade and gang warfare in T&T must include:

1. A plan to combine short term, street level enforcement activity with such sophisticated techniques as consensual monitoring, financial analysis, and wire intercepts investigations to disrupt, root out and prosecute the entire gang, from the street level thugs and dealers up through the crew leaders and ultimately the gang’s command structure.

2. An Incentive package to encourage witnesses and informants to cooperate with the authorities and

3. The imprisoning of the gang’s leaders for decades.

Notice I stated that there are CREW LEADERS...probably the peeps caught in the Hyatt.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 27, 2011, 12:02:16 PM
Well, its the old adage of pulling out the roots. You can't just take the ones visable coz those remaining will simply take over and grow again. Its gonna be tough to make a sustainable dent in the drug trade, especially when the drug lords in prison have phones and still control things.

Again, I know Bakes won't agree, but I'm in favour of those convicted as senior drug criminals should be sent out to Nelson Island and put under draconian conditions for the first 5 years. Why should they have all of these rights? No visits, no letters, no nothing. They chose their careers, so get on with it.

Note: I'm not suggesting this for the majority of prisoners, just those who can continue to influence the drug trade. I don't give a sh*t about their families, in fact their women and children would finally have the chance of living a decent life.

Also, from what I saw in London, these Mr Bigs are generally very affable, generous men and you have to remind yourself that they are causing misery for tens of thousands, both directly and indirectly.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Bakes on August 27, 2011, 04:05:46 PM
Well, its the old adage of pulling out the roots. You can't just take the ones visable coz those remaining will simply take over and grow again. Its gonna be tough to make a sustainable dent in the drug trade, especially when the drug lords in prison have phones and still control things.

Again, I know Bakes won't agree, but I'm in favour of those convicted as senior drug criminals should be sent out to Nelson Island and put under draconian conditions for the first 5 years. Why should they have all of these rights? No visits, no letters, no nothing. They chose their careers, so get on with it.

Note: I'm not suggesting this for the majority of prisoners, just those who can continue to influence the drug trade. I don't give a sh*t about their families, in fact their women and children would finally have the chance of living a decent life.

Also, from what I saw in London, these Mr Bigs are generally very affable, generous men and you have to remind yourself that they are causing misery for tens of thousands, both directly and indirectly.

I neither here nor there on that... as long as it's fair, non-discriminatory, human and not ex post facto then I have no problems with escalated penalties for the kingpins.  Where I have always taken issue with your positions is when you've favored knee-jerk restraints on the rights of all, such that innocent people end up suffering for the few criminals amongst us.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: weary1969 on August 27, 2011, 04:10:14 PM
9600 EURO cyah b TT. Because if all yuh need 2 b a big fish is 9600 TT then it have real big fish 
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 27, 2011, 06:07:37 PM
It was a US$150 per night room
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 27, 2011, 06:37:10 PM
http://cnc3.co.tt/content/war-gangs
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: truetrini on August 27, 2011, 07:13:07 PM
Trinidad police is real kicks yes..seriously now.  Arresting man, by grabbing he shorts?  lol wey de fack is de handcuffs.  And then loading dem in de back ah pick up tray?  steups...what ah ting.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Boodsy on August 29, 2011, 07:14:20 AM
2 men in court today
By ALEXANDER BRUZUAL Monday, August 29 2011

THE TWO alleged gangsters, who were arrested last week hiding out at the Hyatt Regency in Port-of-Spain, are expected to appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate to answer charges under the Anti-Gang Act (10 of 2011).

The men, identified by police as Cedric Burke, 36, and Keon Baine, 31, were charged with being the leader of a gang and being a member of a gang, respectively. The two were detained in separate cells at the Central Police Station yesterday and were visited by their lawyers and relatives.

On Friday at about 11.30 am, officers of the Port-of-Spain CID, acting on a tip off from information provided to them by the Criminal Intelligence Unit (CIU), went to the Hyatt Regency hotel, where they saw the two suspects in the company of a 22-year-old woman in the lobby area. Officers later followed the group to the 16th floor, where they detained them under the Anti-Gang legislation. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives. Persons are also expected to be brought to court and charged under the new legislation as a result of police exercises conducted on the weekend.

(http://www.newsday.co.tt/galeria/2011-08-29-7-1A.jpg)
FOR COURT TODAY: Cedric Burke (left) and Keon Baine, arrested last week at the Hyatt
Regency, will appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate today, charged with being a gang
leader and a member of a gang, respectively.


Read More... (http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,146401.html)
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Jah Gol on August 29, 2011, 07:38:18 AM
2 men in court today
. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives
What ?
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Mr Fix-it on August 29, 2011, 07:46:23 AM
2 men in court today
. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives
What ?

Same thing I was thinking ???
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Socafan on August 29, 2011, 08:22:23 AM
2 men in court today
. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives
What ?

Same thing I was thinking ???

LOL....Trini. The problem in Trini is not crime. Thats just a symptom. We doh have good policing. In fact we have terrible policing, so crime will just blossom, just like it would anywhere else.

They give out the proceeds and evidence of the criminal activity that they lock up the men for to their family...LOL.

Maybe its a misprint.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Brownsugar on August 29, 2011, 08:40:41 AM
I see Ian Alleyene help a victim's family burn a bloody sheet in their yard a few days after a shoot up sometime earlier this year in the Arima area.

I see that and say to myself, but dais not evidence??  Then I chalked it up to watching too much CSI..... ::) ::)

And as for the police apparently moving willy nilly with evidence, we doh need a SOE to deal with that eh....just saying....

Imagine it took years for relatives of a missing woman to get the results of DNA testing.....in 2011!!  steups!!  I hope the SOE solve that too..... ::)
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: elan on August 29, 2011, 10:59:23 AM
2 men in court today
By ALEXANDER BRUZUAL Monday, August 29 2011

THE TWO alleged gangsters, who were arrested last week hiding out at the Hyatt Regency in Port-of-Spain, are expected to appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate to answer charges under the Anti-Gang Act (10 of 2011).

The men, identified by police as Cedric Burke, 36, and Keon Baine, 31, were charged with being the leader of a gang and being a member of a gang, respectively. The two were detained in separate cells at the Central Police Station yesterday and were visited by their lawyers and relatives.

On Friday at about 11.30 am, officers of the Port-of-Spain CID, acting on a tip off from information provided to them by the Criminal Intelligence Unit (CIU), went to the Hyatt Regency hotel, where they saw the two suspects in the company of a 22-year-old woman in the lobby area. Officers later followed the group to the 16th floor, where they detained them under the Anti-Gang legislation. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives. Persons are also expected to be brought to court and charged under the new legislation as a result of police exercises conducted on the weekend.

(http://www.newsday.co.tt/galeria/2011-08-29-7-1A.jpg)
FOR COURT TODAY: Cedric Burke (left) and Keon Baine, arrested last week at the Hyatt
Regency, will appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate today, charged with being a gang
leader and a member of a gang, respectively.


Read More... (http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,146401.html)

Them men eh no "big fish".  I say them really lock somebody up. These men just passing money from the streets to the higher ups. Lower middle men.
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: g on August 29, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
2 men in court today
By ALEXANDER BRUZUAL Monday, August 29 2011

THE TWO alleged gangsters, who were arrested last week hiding out at the Hyatt Regency in Port-of-Spain, are expected to appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate to answer charges under the Anti-Gang Act (10 of 2011).

The men, identified by police as Cedric Burke, 36, and Keon Baine, 31, were charged with being the leader of a gang and being a member of a gang, respectively. The two were detained in separate cells at the Central Police Station yesterday and were visited by their lawyers and relatives.

On Friday at about 11.30 am, officers of the Port-of-Spain CID, acting on a tip off from information provided to them by the Criminal Intelligence Unit (CIU), went to the Hyatt Regency hotel, where they saw the two suspects in the company of a 22-year-old woman in the lobby area. Officers later followed the group to the 16th floor, where they detained them under the Anti-Gang legislation. Officers also seized cash from a safe in one of the two rooms where the men were staying and this was later handed over to relatives. Persons are also expected to be brought to court and charged under the new legislation as a result of police exercises conducted on the weekend.

(http://www.newsday.co.tt/galeria/2011-08-29-7-1A.jpg)
FOR COURT TODAY: Cedric Burke (left) and Keon Baine, arrested last week at the Hyatt
Regency, will appear before a Port-of-Spain Magistrate today, charged with being a gang
leader and a member of a gang, respectively.


Read More... (http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,146401.html)

Them men eh no "big fish".  I say them really lock somebody up. These men just passing money from the streets to the higher ups. Lower middle men.

My understanding is that while these men are not the big fish, they are very high up the criminal order.

The two of them own real estate in Westmoorings, Maraval and Glencoe. They drive expensive vehicles (benz, audis, teannas, etc) and they own many businesses, especially in construction and private security.

Strange enough while they own all these properties they reside primarily in the Sea Lots area, i guess to maintain a presence and control of their operations.

It's one thing to catch these two but i hope there is enough evidence to get them convicted and keep them incarcerated for a while. If this turns out to the the biggest catch of the SOE then i will use their ability to convict these two in particular as a litmust test on the overall the success of this SOE
Title: Re: Duo held in $9,600 suite.
Post by: Football supporter on August 29, 2011, 03:06:48 PM
Thing is with a lot of these guys, you can take the man out of Sealots, but you can't take Sealots out of the man. They strive to be accepted by the rich, but not only do not become accepted, they don't enjoy the company. Its not just education, it manners, politeness, tact.

I'm not saying all of these guys are mindless thugs, but I know a guy who inherited real money and despite the houses, cars and wads of cash, he just don't fit in. He tries to buy everybody and it becomes vulgar. In Sealots these guys are kings, in the Hyatt, they were probably regarded as oafs, flashing their money and ordering hoes, and looked down upon even by Hyatt staff. Just not the done thing in polite society, don't you know?
Title: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Flex on October 16, 2013, 02:06:31 AM
US agency on spiralling T&T crime: Gangs Stronger Than Government
By Geisha Kowlessar (Guardian).


A major think tank based in Washington, DC, believes gangs are the “new war” in T&T, a report on Caribbean 360 said yesterday. It added that recent incidents of intense violence in the country have also drawn international attention to the “rampant gang problem” in the country.

Caribbean 360 said a report by the Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) yesterday noted that regardless of size, all forms of gangs in T&T were more pervasive than those to be found in developed nations and have now become societal institutions that go beyond social purposes, “and are coming to resemble governments in and of themselves.”
 
It also charged that Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar has been unable to effectively deal with gang activity, adding that legislation passed by the People’s Partnership Government to fight crime, such as the Anti-Gang Act, “has proven to be ineffective.” “As it now stands, gangs have a stronger hold on the Trinidadian population than its government does,” the organisation said.

COHA cited the September 11, 2013 incident in which Michael Piper’s severed head was discovered on Nelson Street, Port-of-Spain. Police have remained clueless as to the motive for his death. COHA, however, has theorised this is a movement towards a form of violence used in South American countries.

“There is now a trend towards this so-called ‘South American method of warfare,’ in which beheadings and other extreme forms of violence are the norm in dealing with rival gangs and in which only 14.3 per cent of T&T’s youth is confident in its satisfaction with the police force,” COHA said. It said the Government’s recent decision to “simply amp up the police force” is not likely to hinder the persistent gang presence.

“Violence is a serious problem in the islands, but targeting this alone will not make an effective reform,” it said, adding that “gangs in T&T, specifically in high-risk areas, like east Port-of-Spain, including Laventille, have become so institutionalised that they pose a threat to—and even control in some cases—T&T’s crucial infrastructures.” 

COHA said in T&T and Jamaica, gangs have a “very unusual and ultimately far more dangerous effect on their surrounding areas.” Claiming T&T had more than 100 gangs, COHA said in the absence of an adequate legal system, gangs “outsource their justice in situations as trivial as parents disciplining their children.”

Responding to the findings of the report yesterday, National Security Minister Gary Griffith said for far too long, gangs have been allowed to build their clientele to the extent where they have acquired “certain streets and blocks which they consider their own.” “We have created a monster and we are the ones who need to destroy it,” Griffith said in a telephone interview.

“I am not at all surprised. When I first took this position I realised one of the biggest problems we have is gang activity and we cannot continue to sit idly by and continue to bury our head in the sand and think that giving out these contracts is going to stop criminal activity...it is just the opposite.”

Asked to specify who the “we” referred to, since his comment referred to a recent promise he made to stop the practice of state contracts being given to gang leaders, Griffith said previous governments, as this problem stemmed from the days of the Unemployment Relief Programme (URP). Saying the Government needed to do a proper audit of the social projects, Griffith said these programmes have become an avenue for mass misappropriation of funds which are filtered into the hands of gang leaders.


“So where the plan was to have these projects reduce crime, it has in fact been increasing crime,” Griffith added. He said a new anti-crime measure expected to be rolled out within the coming weeks was an initiative, headed by him, in which people would be urged to pass on information about gangs and other criminal activities.

“Anybody who feels they have proper information to bring down these individuals, I am providing an avenue for them which I personally would be co-ordinating. I am asking the country to trust me on this,” Griffith urged.
 

Result of poor decisions

Public relations officer for the PNM Faris Al-Rawi said yesterday the COHA’s report was especially tragic, as T&T was “wrestling” to diversify its economy through tourism and trade. He also criticised the PP Government for dumping anti-crime measures implemented by the previous administration. “The PNM has cautioned the Government and people of T&T on umpteen occasions as to the deleterious effect of the Government’s wilful dismantling of national security systems and services,” Al Rawi said.

“In particular, we have been at pains to demand a replacement of the Anti-Gang Unit of the Special Anti-Crime Unit of T&T (Sautt), which the Government wilfully and recklessly threw out on 2010.” This move, he added, has resulted in an “exponential growth” in criminal gang activity, particularly in east Port-of-Spain. Saying the country has been faced with “gory news of decapitations gangland-style” Al-Rawi said these killings have become the centre stage of serious reports of international partners.


“This government, with four ministers of national security prior to Mr Griffith, has yet to account for the consequences of its actions and more particularily of its statement of a realistic and clearly articulated crime plan of T&T,” Al-Rawi added. He said Griffith had a “mountain” on his plate and seemed to have little assistance from the Government given recent statements made by Attorney General Anand Ramlogan.


Al-Rawi called upon Persad-Bissessar to step forward and take charge of the country’s national security systems in a fashion that “will demonstrate capability and inspire confidence in the people.”


what is coha

The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) is a Washington, DC-based non-governmental organisation (NGO) founded in 1975. It was established to “promote the common interests of the Western hemisphere, raise the visibility of regional affairs and increase the importance of the inter-American relationship, as well as encourage the formulation of rational and constructive US policies towards Latin America.” —Source Wikipedia

Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: mal jeux on October 17, 2013, 07:17:46 AM
i hear they're bringing in an expert on gangs from "Alberta" Canada. a gentleman with a proven record working with gangs of prairie dogs, beaver, bison, raccoon and the fiercely territorial striped skunk. 
Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: soccerman on October 17, 2013, 02:55:17 PM
COHA cited the September 11, 2013 incident in which Michael Piper’s severed head was discovered on Nelson Street, Port-of-Spain. Police have remained clueless as to the motive for his death. COHA, however, has theorised this is a movement towards a form of violence used in South American countries.

We reach to this now? That is real savage behavior.
Title: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Flex on April 02, 2017, 05:29:17 AM
‘Hostages’ in Enterprise war
By Kalifa Clyne (Guardian).


Residents of Enterprise are “hostages” within their own community as a vicious drug war continues to leave the streets bloody.

Police have few advantages in a community which has streets connecting stealthily and secretly, where residents are charged as voluntary and involuntary secret keepers, and gun and drug-toting criminals, mostly young boys, swallowed whole by gang life and its offerings.

For the hundreds of law-abiding citizens locked into the vicious battle, listening to the constant echoes of gunshots, leaving isn’t easy and staying is a nightmare.

This is the story of a young member of the Enterprise community (identity has been withheld), as told to Sunday Guardian journalist Kalifa Clyne.

There are sounds that have become as commonplace in Enterprise as a bird singing outside or a dog’s bark. I never thought I would ever become accustomed to the sound of gunshots. It is now almost an everyday occurrence. Police sirens and gunshots; those are the sounds that to me accurately sum up a typical day in my community.

My eight-year-old niece knows the difference in sound between a gunshot and a fire cracker. It breaks my heart to say that. She will never have the full childhood experience I had, playing cricket in the street and all the outdoor fun most children experience.

I won’t even risk sending her to the nearby parlour that is a few houses away for fear of what may happen. Last year, I took that risk. She wanted to go to the shop for a snack. She got home safely. Later that same day, we heard the sound of screeching cars, police sirens, gunshots being exchanged and a loud crashing sound that I will never forget.

Police were chasing a car whose occupants were shooting at them. The police were returning fire. The car with the assailants crashed into a galvanise fence. This occurred along the same path my niece walked earlier that day to the shop. I have not allowed her to go to the shop or even play in the street outside our home since that incident.

Violence has become almost synonymous with Enterprise. In earlier times, when the rivaling gangs first started murdering each other, I remember feeling shocked, sad and bitterly angry every time someone was killed.

Now I feel numb and exhausted.

It occurs too often.

Before I can wrap my head around someone getting murdered, someone else is murdered and I have to deal with new feelings of hopelessness. I am so fed up of this violence.

BEFORE THE VIOLENCE

I have lived in Enterprise all my life. As a child I remember being able to play outdoors long after the street lights would come on. I had friends from all over the area and there were no concerns on my part or my parents whether or not it was safe for me to play with my peers, irrespective of which street they were from. My teenage years were no different. Enterprise people love to party and would find any excuse to do so. The entire community and environs would come together and there would be massive street parties or “blockos.”

I had so much fun when there were community events in Dass Trace, Crown Trace, African Grounds or Bhagaloo Street and I would attend these events without fear of being shot or hurt because rivalling streets “warring” or anything to that effect.

Like any other community, we would be hit with criminal activity, but it wasn’t the norm. As I’m older I now understand that there was always a drug dealing problem in the area however, I can’t remember there being this many murders at any given time back then. Gang violence of this magnitude only really erupted within the last three years.

I live on Bhagaloo Street. The epicentre of the current gang war is actually between Bhagaloo Street (the alleged Rasta City hub) and Crown Trace, home of the “Unruly Isis” crew. Most of the streets in Enterprise are connected and even I am at a loss sometimes since the lines are blurred as to where each gangs’ territory starts and ends. For instance, I know many self-proclaimed Unruly Isis members who live in Walcott Lane which is an offshoot of Bhagaloo Street. It’s all very confusing and very stupid.

I can’t remember the last time I felt happiness, excitement or any positive emotion that was the result of some experience in Enterprise. It actually makes me very sad to say that because I love my community and the people who live here however, nothing about Enterprise inspires me to smile.

Last year, I felt proud of my community when Nigel Paul, who is from Enterprise, represented our country at the Olympics. That was a good moment for our community. Other than that, I can’t recall feeling anything other than profound anxiety, fear, hopelessness, disappointment and sometimes anger.

WHEN ROBOCOP WAS KILLED

I am no longer shocked by anything that happens here. Things that I never thought would happen here have already occurred. Maybe the most shocking might be Robocop’s murder. As someone who grew up here, we all grew to be very wary of that man.

He was very charismatic but we knew he was dangerous. Everyone frequented his grocery store and we all thought the last place he’d meet his demise was there. It was his fort, so to speak. So when I heard he was murdered, along with his friend and the alleged Isis perpetrator, it was shocking.

You see, all those Unruly Isis members were at some point under Robocop, we all knew it. Most of Unruly Isis were known to be liming at Robocop’s. I saw them myself. When they split from Robocop because of conflicting ideologies I never expected that they would garner the power to do what they did.

Everyone underestimated their strength and how radicalised they were in their ideology. When they murdered Robocop, who I and everyone else thought was untouchable, we knew that no one was safe here.

At least I knew that. Robocop, who many consider the most dangerous man in Enterprise, was murdered by an Unruly Isis member and it was at that point I stopped being nalve and acknowledged how strong the Unruly unit really was. I think this even made me finally accept that there was a real war occurring in my community and that Enterprise was under siege. I started being a lot more afraid for myself, family and friends after that.

STREETS FILLED WITH DRUGS AND GUNS

Enterprise is a known drug hub. There are blocks set up in all the major streets in the area like Bhagaloo Street, Crown Trace and Enterprise Street, just to name the more popular blocks. Hence, it is no surprise that these three areas have seen the most gang-related violence. Drugs have been one of the main contributing factors to the violence in these areas. All these gang members represent their block and their turf. They all want to be the top selling block because that would mean more money to spread around. Bhagaloo Street’s block was very popular and, from what I observed, would make a lot of money when I observed the calibre of people going to purchase marijuana and whatever else. Crown Trace gang members felt disenfranchised because they were not getting enough “bread” from the amount Bhagaloo Street was making and tensions began to slowly rise on their end until things eventually exploded. In those initial few months it was like a real war zone. Men would walk around boldly with guns and it was terrifying.

Another reason there is so much violence is the availability of guns. Young men have easy access to weapons in Enterprise and are certainly not willing to part ways with them especially now when this war is at its peak. Also, these guys prefer to stay home and lime on the block than look for a job and attain an honest dollar to support themselves. My father personally tried to help one of those young men get a job and the morning for him to go the interview he did not show up. That young man was shot recently. He escaped unscathed but is currently hiding, he is fearful for his life.

Another major contributing factor is the so called “community leaders” in Enterprise. Most of these “leaders” are actually the drug bosses who are recruiting teenagers. They start indoctrinating those boys at a young age and advertise the benefits of the fast life culture that typically involves money, cars, drugs, guns and sex. My brother was caught up by this façade as a teenager, too. He eventually got some sense and left that life and is now gainfully employed, thank God. But it wasn’t easy for my parents to convince him to abandon that lifestyle.

TERRIFIED

I am afraid in my own home, so it goes without saying that I am extremely fearful walking through my community. On a daily basis, I would walk out Bhagaloo Street to get transport because it is easier for me. On my way home, I have resorted to paying a taxi to drop me straight home and I usually direct them through Crown Trace instead of Bhagaloo Street.

The reason for this is because the Government recently opened a new HDC housing scheme (Lion’s Gate) and taxis are more willing to drop passengers there than they are to go in Bhagaloo Street.

I’ve resorted to deceiving taxi drivers this way—they think I am dropping off at Lion’s Gate and when I direct them otherwise and they find themselves on the outskirts of Bhagaloo Street they are usually quite annoyed with me. I’ve grown accustomed to being cursed by them.

Before I leave home I pray and ask God to protect me. Whenever I see a young guy riding a bike I get scared sometimes because a lot of the gang members use bikes to escape after they shoot up the place. Also I hate when cars are passing next to me and I can’t see the occupants of the vehicle because of the dark tint. I get really scared when that happens.

I tell myself all the time that I need to leave this community, not only for my sake but my family’s as well. I want my niece to grow up in a “safe” area. I want her to feel a sense of pride about where she comes from. Unfortunately I do not have the financial ability to do so. My family and I have made a life here.

NO TRUST IN THE POLICE

Ironically, my family and I have been put in danger because of a gun but it wasn’t at the hands of gang bangers, it was actually due to the irresponsibility of police officers.

A few years ago, the police were conducting an operation in Bhagaloo Street which resulted in them chasing a guy (a known drug dealer) who was attempting to escape to avoid being arrested with a quantity of drugs.

In Enterprise it is almost impossible for the police to catch anyone on foot because all the streets are connected and the criminals who are from the area know the best escape routes and hiding spots.

That day, the drug dealer decided to use my yard as a means to get away from the police. Two of my nieces who were 11 and nine years old at the time were in the yard playing. My sister was also outside.

My grandmother and I were sitting in my bedroom. Suddenly I heard very loud explosions outside.

I had never heard gun shots at such a close range before, so I was terrified. I looked out my window and saw the drug dealer (his hands were empty) run past my window with a male police officer chasing him and shooting at him. The police never caught the guy and when things settled down a bit my family and I discovered bullet holes in our roof, and on the wall of our house.

That police officer endangered our lives shooting a weapon in a very irresponsible manner in close proximity to two young children who were playing in what we thought was the security of our home.

Needless to say, my nieces – and by extension my entire family – were incredibly terrified by the events of that day. I hate the fact that it was because of the drug dealers’ actions that we were even put in such a position. But I must hold the police accountable as well, since I believe they are trained on how to effectively deal with such sensitive situations where innocent civilians are involved.

The police definitely do not inspire feelings of safety for me.

I have seen too many shady police activity in my area to ever feel safe because of them. I have seen known drug dealers selling marijuana in front of the police. I have seen police officers liming on the block with their vehicle in police uniform. It is no wonder why people have no respect for police officers and by extension the law when every day we see police officers blatantly having no regard for the law and the oath that they themselves swore to.

The sad thing is that there are many good police officers but the few bad ones give them all a bad reputation.

This is why even though everyone in Enterprise knows who the drug dealers are, where the guns are located and such, no one speaks up or goes to the police because of bad cops who can potentially inform drug bosses who the “snitches” are in the community.

Chaguanas Police Station in my opinion is the most corrupt police station in the whole of Trinidad. There are a lot of drugs and guns in Enterprise but whenever the police conduct an operation they only find one or two weapons and little to no drugs.

Why do you think that is? The whole of Enterprise knows when a “secret” police operation is about to go down. It’s almost laughable. Many known police officers have sold their badges for blood money and then they come an arrest the same petty drug dealers they took the money from.

This just fuels more hatred for the police by these gang members who feel the police are backstabbing them after they allowed them to “eat ah food”. Just yesterday, I saw a bullet ridden police jeep drive past my home. Gang members shooting at police officers is a norm now. No one has respect for those flashing blue lights anymore.

I’ve heard too many gunshots to give a number. I usually feel extremely anxious whenever I hear gunshots. I have become such a gunshot expert that I can now decipher when the rivalling gangs are exchanging gun fire. An obvious “tell” are the intervals between gunfire. Also if you listen closely you can sometimes differentiate between gunshots from your typical revolver or pistol and semi/fully automatic weapons.

My niece is terrified of the sound of gunshots. She is only eight years old and I hate that she even knows what a gunshot sounds like. On Friday, when they killed Robocop’s brother, Sylvan Alexis, there was a hail of gunfire that absolutely terrified the poor child. She ran hiding under our sofa. It hurts me to see her so scared when things like that happen. I try to comfort her but she is usually shaken up for days after events like that take place.

(http://www.guardian.co.tt/sites/default/files/field/image/ENTERPRISE_1.jpg)
FLASHBACK: An Enterprise resident chastises Central Division police for their inability to deal with the upsurge in gang murders in the area during a protest last week. PHOTO: ABRAHAM DIAZ

Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Sando prince on April 02, 2017, 01:07:58 PM
Go through the Crime Situation in T&T thread and everyone will see at least 50% of the crime are gang related and can also be posted in this thread
.
Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Deeks on April 04, 2017, 05:29:02 AM
Go through the Crime Situation in T&T thread and everyone will see at least 50% of the crime are gang related and can also be posted in this thread
.

at least 50% of the crime are gang related


Black people devouring they own. reality bites, and it sucks too.
Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Sando prince on April 04, 2017, 11:20:04 AM
Go through the Crime Situation in T&T thread and everyone will see at least 50% of the crime are gang related and can also be posted in this thread
.

at least 50% of the crime are gang related


Black people devouring they own. reality bites, and it sucks too.

Ah know yuh not acting surprised. This has been the issue for MANY YEARS now
Title: Re: Gangs in T&T.
Post by: Flex on April 27, 2017, 01:47:55 AM
$200,000 to keep the peace in Enterprise
Ryan Hamilton-Davis (Newsday)


IT COSTS taxpayers $200,000 monthly to keep the peace in Enterprise, Chaguanas.

This was revealed yesterday during the weekly police press briefing where Superintendent Richard Smith said that “Operation Enterprise” — a specific anti- crime operation for the Central Trinidad area — was a resounding success since its launch recently by National Security Minister Edmund Dillon. Supt Smith is coordinating the operation and yesterday reported to the media on its success.

He said that for the year, Enterprise in Chaguanas has experienced 18 murders during a bloody battle between two criminal gangs for control of turf in which to conduct illegal activities including robberies and drug trafficking.

He said that since “Operation Enterprise” was launched, which has seen a detailed and sustained police and solider presence in Enterprise, crime has fallen dramatically and there has been no murder recorded in that area for weeks. Asked why such a sustained approach could not be duplicated in communities across the country, Supt Smith said the Police Service does not have sufficient resources.

“If only we were able to sustain it, I would like very much to see the operations in Enterprise happen all over the country,” Supt Smith said. “But Operation Enterprise has taken a lot of resources.

We really deploy our personnel as and when the need arises. So to ask why can’t we deploy the same to all areas of Trinidad and Tobago, we just don’t have that amount of resources.” “Generally per capita we would say that we have enough officers, but when we have an area that has been affected you would have to pump more resources into that specific area to bring back a sense of normalcy.”

Supt Smith revealed that it costs $200,000 monthly, to sustain “Operation Enterprise” as both police and soldiers have to be paid overtime as officers work 24-hour shifts, meals and drinks for officers on shift and also to properly maintain vehicles used in the operation.

In addition to police and soldiers being visibly present in all areas of the Enterprise community on a 24 hour basis, “Operation Enterprise” has seen officers conduct town meetings and paid visits to schools in order to reconnect with the community. Smith said that from January to March, before “Operation Enterprise”, there were eight woundings, one burglary, one case of larceny and two cases of malicious damage, along with the 18 murders in that community. With the operation in place, there have been no murders committed in Enterprise.

“Our plan is to stay as long as it takes. We want to ensure the residents of Enterprise will feel a sense of safety and security so we will stay there for as long as it takes. We will not just uproot and run,” Supt Smith assured.

Title: Gangs in T&T Thread
Post by: Flex on July 07, 2019, 05:58:57 AM
Report: 2,484 gang members in T&T
By Anna-Lisa Paul (Guardian).


More than a year af­ter the An­ti Gang Act 2018 was pro­claimed in­to law, not a sin­gle gang­ster has been con­vict­ed al­though po­lice have charged sev­er­al peo­ple.

It was a prob­lem laid bare by Com­mis­sion­er of Po­lice Gary Grif­fith when he re­vealed just two weeks ago that “over 50 shoot­ers, linked to var­i­ous gangs” are re­spon­si­ble for the “sig­nif­i­cant num­ber of homi­cides, via gang ac­tiv­i­ty.”

With the homi­cide count al­ready climb­ing past the 260-mark for the year, most­ly due to an up­surge in gang-re­lat­ed killings, for­mer Na­tion­al Se­cu­ri­ty Min­is­ter Carl Al­fon­so said some­one had to rise to the task.

“Some­body has to bell the cat and that some­body has to be the Min­is­ter of Na­tion­al Se­cu­ri­ty in col­lab­o­ra­tion with the Com­mis­sion­er of Po­lice and the At­tor­ney Gen­er­al to get this thing sort­ed out,” he said. “It is not an easy task but it has to be done.”

Na­tion­al se­cu­ri­ty stake­hold­ers have laid the blame square­ly on the shoul­ders of law en­force­ment agen­cies who they say are stum­bling block to the leg­is­la­tion’s suc­cess. Politi­cians, in their opin­ion, have been cleared as de­ter­rents to the leg­is­la­tion’s ef­fec­tive­ness.

Crim­i­nol­o­gist Dau­rius Figueira said: “The leg­is­la­tion can go no fur­ther. If it is to go any fur­ther, it has to strip us of all our civ­il rights.”

The most re­cent gang killing, ac­cord­ing to in­ves­ti­ga­tors, oc­curred at Main­got Road, Tu­na­puna, one week ago when 32-year-old Kevin Fi­garo was shot dead in his bed at his First Trace home. His mur­der fol­lowed that of 34-year-old Chir­von Brown who was shot and killed one week be­fore.

De­scrib­ing the cur­rent leg­is­la­tion as “very very very harsh,” Figueira added: “The prob­lem is en­force­ment and a crim­i­nal jus­tice sys­tem which is in cri­sis.”

That view was shared by Head of the Crim­i­nol­o­gy Unit, UW, Dr Randy Seep­er­sad.

“What we some­times have here in Trinidad and To­ba­go is knee-jerk re­ac­tions where we have a law that al­lows us to do cer­tain things and we may have prob­a­ble cause for some breach of the law, and then we ar­rest some­body with­out think­ing down the road about how we are go­ing to trans­late this ar­rest in­to a con­vic­tion and this is where the law falls short,” he said.

“The law al­lows us to do cer­tain things, but with­out oth­er things that could bring the law to fruition it is just go­ing to fall short and we would not get the ben­e­fits of the law. With­out that, those laws would not re­al­ly mat­ter or make a dif­fer­ence.”

Po­lice Com­mis­sion­er Gary Grif­fith dis­agreed.

“The An­ti Gang leg­is­la­tion is prov­ing to be very ef­fec­tive in terms of pro­vid­ing a de­ter­rent to gangs,” he claimed.

How­ev­er, Figueira ar­gued: “The prob­lem is not the leg­is­la­tion but the way you go about build­ing the case.”

Cer­tain type of polic­ing need­ed

Re­fer­ring to gang ac­tiv­i­ty as or­gan­ised crime Figueira point­ed out: “The on­ly way you are go­ing to have suc­cess­ful cas­es is to have a spe­cif­ic type of polic­ing method­ol­o­gy.”

“You have to first pen­e­trate the gang. You have to have peo­ple will­ing to tes­ti­fy. You have to en­sure the safe­ty of wit­ness­es and the cas­es have to be fin­ished quick­ly. You can­not drag it out for years. It is a prob­lem of polic­ing and a prob­lem in re­spect of a crim­i­nal jus­tice sys­tem that has acute con­sti­pa­tion.”

Grif­fith coun­tered: “Imag­ine if you did not have such an Act. It means that a gang mem­ber can ac­tu­al­ly put out a full-page ad­ver­tise­ment invit­ing peo­ple to be­come gang mem­bers.”

He de­clared that this par­tic­u­lar leg­is­la­tion is not as straight-for­ward when it comes to la­belling some­one a gang mem­ber—as op­posed to when some­one is held with an il­le­gal weapon.

“It is a lot of ev­i­dence that has to be ac­cu­mu­lat­ed to en­sure the case is air-tight and that is not some­thing that is done overnight,” Grif­fith said

He added that with­out an­ti-gang leg­is­la­tion “gang mem­bers could have gone on the streets. They could have as­sem­bled. They could have been in spe­cif­ic lo­ca­tions. They could have been do­ing mas­sive re­cruit­ment.”

In polic­ing gangs and their mem­bers, Figueira said, time and re­sources must be de­vot­ed to the ef­fort.

“You have to dis­man­tle the op­er­a­tions of the clique by in­car­cer­at­ing the lead­er­ship. This is not a quick fix or an overnight thing. This is a lot of hard work and you have to in­fil­trate the gangs. At the lead­er­ship lev­el, the busi­ness of the play­ers is not in the streets. Every­body feels that the lit­tle young ones walk­ing around with the Glock in their waist are lead­ers but that is not the lead­er­ship as the lead­ers are very skilled at mask­ing their ac­tiv­i­ty,” he said.

Figueira raised a new con­cern: “Many peo­ple don’t un­der­stand there are play­ers in Trinidad and To­ba­go that are transna­tion­al so they don’t stick in a lit­tle place and hide there all day. Peo­ple feel that gang­land is these lit­tle shoot­ers that every­one sees on the road but that is not gang­land. Gang­land is de­fined by the play­ers and if you don’t un­der­stand how they op­er­ate, you could nev­er ar­rest gang­land.”

He was crit­i­cal of T&T’s crim­i­nal jus­tice sys­tem, say­ing: “We are not build­ing cas­es that stand scruti­ny in the courts of law.”

Figueira ex­plained: “Wit­ness­es are un­der as­sault as the max­im of death to in­former must be en­forced, hence the at­tacks on wit­ness­es.

The pas­sage of a case through the courts is way too slow which fa­cil­i­tates the as­saults on wit­ness­es.

“The prison sys­tem at present is not de­signed to grap­ple with a re­mand yard filled with mem­bers of gang­land await­ing tri­al for lengthy pe­ri­ods of time, which en­ables gang­land to launch re­peat­ed as­saults on the re­mand yard in or­der to con­trol it. Gang­land is now in con­trol of re­mand and they are run­ning their en­ter­pris­es from the re­mand yard.”

He said the is­sue was not the leg­is­la­tion but the knowl­edge base that in­formed the man­ner in which the po­lice went about build­ing cas­es.

“Not a sin­gle play­er of gang­land Trinidad and To­ba­go, from the decade of the 1990s to the present, was ever in­car­cer­at­ed for gang ac­tiv­i­ties,” he said. “Not a sin­gle gang from this pe­ri­od to the present was ever dis­man­tled.

“The re­al­i­ty is that the in­sti­tu­tions of the crim­i­nal jus­tice sys­tem need to be rapid­ly re­formed and up­grad­ed to grap­ple with the 21st-cen­tu­ry re­al­i­ty on the ground, as they are at present con­sti­tut­ed to face 1960’s re­al­i­ty. This in­sti­tu­tion­al in­er­tia must now end to en­sure peace and se­cu­ri­ty for the cit­i­zens of Trinidad and To­ba­go in the 21st cen­tu­ry.”

COP has con­fi­dence in leg­is­la­tion

Re­veal­ing he was the one to rec­om­mend the in­tro­duc­tion of the An­ti Gang Bill back in 2006 as an ad­vi­sor un­der the Con­gress of the Peo­ple, Grif­fith said: “I am ful­ly aware of the val­ue and how it has worked.”

He said while there were very strin­gent an­ti-gang laws world­wide, T&T was not close to what had been im­ple­ment­ed in oth­er coun­tries, “Be­cause every time we try to im­pose laws to look af­ter the rights of law-abid­ing cit­i­zens, some­body would jump up to find a way to de­fend the rights of crim­i­nals and that has al­ways been our is­sue.”

Ac­cord­ing to Grif­fith: “Every time some­one finds a way to de­fend crim­i­nals, it can be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card.”

Not­ing that gang mem­bers were be­ing re­cruit­ed at younger ages now, he added: “Now you are now get­ting ear­ly teens as gang mem­bers and that’s why you are see­ing 14-year-olds bran­dish­ing firearms and be­ing re­cruit­ed by gangs.”

He said this was in­dica­tive of a very se­ri­ous so­cial is­sue where young peo­ple were be­ing eas­i­ly in­flu­enced and ma­nip­u­lat­ed.

Grif­fith de­clared that he was com­mit­ted to pre­vent­ing fur­ther pro­lif­er­a­tion of gangs and warned: “If we don’t nip this in the bud, in the next five years the num­ber of gang mem­bers could grow to ten times more be­cause you are get­ting tens of thou­sands of men and women in their ear­ly teens be­ing eas­i­ly in­flu­enced by gang mem­bers in com­mu­ni­ties.

“The cat­a­lyst to­wards re­duc­ing gang-re­lat­ed ac­tiv­i­ty will con­tin­ue to be one thing and that is, gangs must stop get­ting state con­tracts.”

The CoP said this prac­tice had been al­lowed to flour­ish un­der the last four po­lit­i­cal ad­min­is­tra­tions.

“This es­ca­lates the prob­lem be­cause it em­bold­ens them, gives them the op­por­tu­ni­ty to prof­it and they use this, not to help their com­mu­ni­ties but to pur­chase more firearms, get more il­le­gal drugs and hire more gang mem­bers,” he said.

Grif­fith de­scribed state con­tracts as the Achilles heel of the T&T Po­lice Ser­vice (TTPS) as they fought against crim­i­nal el­e­ments.

“The gangs are aware that we out-num­ber them, that we out-gun them, that we have bet­ter tac­ti­cal and nu­mer­i­cal su­pe­ri­or­i­ty over them, so they would not chal­lenge the TTPS head on. What they are do­ing is they are fight­ing their wars among them­selves and as Com­mis­sion­er of Po­lice I am bul­ly­ing my way in­to these wars to stop them from killing each oth­er.

“When the num­bers go up, it is not a case of one gang mem­ber killing an­oth­er. The sta­tis­tics hurt and dam­age the coun­try and puts fear in­to the eyes of law-abid­ing cit­i­zens.”

Ex­pert: Adopt Ja­maican mod­el

Herald­ing the suc­cess of a crime-fight­ing mod­el re­cent­ly in­sti­tut­ed in Ja­maica, Seep­erasad ex­plained: “What they do dif­fer­ent­ly is that they pros­e­cute gang mat­ters us­ing the an­ti-gang laws. Their an­ti-gang laws are sim­i­lar to ours but they do it in such a way that they have the req­ui­site in­tel­li­gence in­for­ma­tion and the le­gal sup­port, so that they build their case and they build the in­for­ma­tion first in such a way that it can stand up in court be­fore they go and ar­rest some­one and put the law in­to ef­fect.”

He said there had been a con­sis­tent de­cline in crimes in Ja­maica since 2009 as they were tack­ling the is­sue of gangs and gang ac­tiv­i­ty head-on in terms of sup­pres­sive and pre­ven­ta­tive ap­proach­es.

“Their gang sit­u­a­tion is ten times worse than ours and if they can pull it off, we can too,” Seep­er­sad said.

“It is not the leg­is­la­tors, they have done their job. It is the peo­ple who need to put the leg­is­la­tion to use.”

Seep­er­sad said the Ja­maican au­thor­i­ties had very strong­ly em­braced an all of gov­ern­ment and all of so­ci­ety ap­proach to deal­ing with crime.

“What hap­pens here is that even though our jus­tice sys­tem as well as oth­er sup­port­ing en­ti­ties, are get­ting clos­er and clos­er, we still work in si­los. We com­pete with each oth­er among the law en­force­ment agen­cies.

“When we have in­tel­li­gence in­for­ma­tion, we don’t share it be­cause the in­for­ma­tion is pow­er and every­body wants their lit­tle slice of the pie. It is a com­pe­ti­tion rather than co­op­er­a­tion,” he said.

In or­der to avoid this pit­fall, Seep­er­sad said, the Ja­maican gov­ern­ment had cre­at­ed a spe­cial com­mit­tee com­pris­ing Cab­i­net mem­bers who were tasked with serv­ing as a co­or­di­nat­ing en­ti­ty from which they cre­at­ed pro­to­cols and mech­a­nisms for the se­cu­ri­ty sec­tor.

“It is every­body now work­ing to­geth­er on the same page with the same goals in mind, as op­posed to com­pet­ing with each oth­er. If we can do that here, if we can work with the law fra­ter­ni­ty where we have le­gal pro­fes­sion­als help­ing us to build a case us­ing the ev­i­dence and we have oth­er en­ti­ties sup­ply­ing the rel­e­vant in­for­ma­tion in­stead of hid­ing it or hoard­ing it, and we put all of that to­geth­er and we build some­thing, we know we can prob­a­bly con­vict that per­son,” he said.

For­mer min­is­ter con­cerned about gangs

Al­fon­so, who ex­pressed con­cern about gangs and gang ac­tiv­i­ty, said he was not en­vi­ous of Grif­fith and is con­fi­dent that once the ex­pe­ri­enced heads join forces they will come up with a so­lu­tion. How­ev­er, he said, it will not be an easy task.

“We have a lot of laws in place that are not en­forced. All of us know that,” Al­fon­so said as he urged cit­i­zens to pay par­tic­u­lar at­ten­tion to the chang­ing land­scape of gangs in this coun­try with the in­flux of mi­grants from Venezuela.

A few weeks ago, Guardian Me­dia re­vealed in­tel­li­gence re­ports in­di­cat­ing the pres­ence of Venezue­lan gangs in the coun­try.

Con­ced­ing no one per­son had the an­swer on how to solve the sit­u­a­tion, Al­fon­so called for greater co­op­er­a­tion among en­ti­ties.

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