Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
Sports => Football => Topic started by: Saltanfresh on September 19, 2008, 03:37:17 PM
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IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?
If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?
For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine)
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we had this topic come up before...
but yeah pretty much 9 of 10 south american countries plus guyana, suriname have black fellas playing for dem regular....
only one odd man out :-\
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Colombia,Ecuador, Venezuela and Uruguay have black players.
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I have seen a couple Black players on the Bolivia team.
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IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?
If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?
For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine)
is veron afro-argentine or mixed
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
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Posts: 1179
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 04:27:09 PM » Quote
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism correct absolutely true
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F@*k them, ........idiots. >:(
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
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All Latin-American countries have fallen down with various degrees of the Euro-Centric Racism virus.
However, in fairness to both Argentina and Peru, they both have very small populations of African origin. These populations only represent a tiny percentage of their populations. This is especially true in the case of Argentina.
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
True talk
wha bout Melvin Brown have real caps for Mexico though... but he is ah kinda dougla something
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
Uhm no... doh put Mexico in dat shit. Mexico has never had any sizeable afro-descent population. A simple Google on Afro-Argentines or "black Argentinians" (aside from the Wikipedia link provided) would give you an insight. Argentina's attitudes towards it's black population can easily be compared to that of Australia and the Aboriginies... if you can't sweep them under the rug then get them to assimilate to the point that they have no identity and remain on the fringes of society. Neither self, nor other.
At least blacks who have lived in Mexico, and I know of a couple... haven't reported anything negative...take Gally for example.
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
The number of black players represented in the primera and lower divisions is improving (but I can't say it's a function of race) ... if we're talking Mexicans, that's truly something else, but Mexican futbol collectively features more than a handful of black Colombians, Brazilians and others.
Some of these players are "franchise" type players. For instance, Cristian Benitez of Ecuador (Santos Laguna) and Hugo Rodallega of Colombia (Necaxa). Benitez has excelled. Rodallega is less consistent but is in that category nonetheless.
Now, in terms of legacy ... way back in the day a baller like Francois Omam-Biyik (author of the goal that saw Cameroon defeat Argentina at the 1990 World Cup) played in Mexico for Cuauhtemoc Blanco's former club - America.
On top of that today yuh have other players like Felipe Baloy from Panama.
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Lehme also add ... We're quick to rush Argentina in terms of race relations (and ah understand the temptation), buh if we take the valid question Palos asked about Mexico and turn the microscope on Argentina's club ball ... in fairness, we also hadda admit that several black ballers play in the Argentine league ranks. Wanchope had a stint there with Rosario Central. And, River and Boca and other clubs have looked at black players periodically without regard to race.
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So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.
But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?
VB
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
True talk
wha bout Melvin Brown have real caps for Mexico though... but he is ah kinda dougla something
Well, somebody in the picture had to be "typically" Mexican so hence his 'look', birth and citizenship. He's born in a part of Mexico with a rich history of connection with ppl of African descent. When we say 'black' in the context of Mexico by our external definition yuh probably hadda include Melvin Brown, notwithstanding a Trini concept like 'dougla'. From the point of view of a Mexican definition it may not necessarily be the same.
Compare him to this guy www.kalimba.com.mx We cyah really just go on externals.
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VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
Uhm no... doh put Mexico in dat shit. Mexico has never had any sizeable afro-descent population. A simple Google on Afro-Argentines or "black Argentinians" (aside from the Wikipedia link provided) would give you an insight. Argentina's attitudes towards it's black population can easily be compared to that of Australia and the Aboriginies... if you can't sweep them under the rug then get them to assimilate to the point that they have no identity and remain on the fringes of society. Neither self, nor other.
At least blacks who have lived in Mexico, and I know of a couple... haven't reported anything negative...take Gally for example.
As enlightening ;) as this discussion is, ah doh want to compromise this side of the forum by delving further, but Bakes you should have a look at http://www.isteve.com/2002_Where_Did_Mexicos_Blacks_Go.htm
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So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.
But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?
VB
Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT? If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.
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Asylum...good post. Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship. Here is one that I came across a while ago (http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/brief.htm) though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site. I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\
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Argentina's been pretty much done to death, but I will check out the varying views on the black mexicans
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IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?
If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?
For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine)
Listen horse , they damn near kill out all the black ppl in argentina, and who they didn't kill ran into neighboring countries like Brazil and Bolivia or assimulate into white argentine society, there is but ah remnant of African decent in nazi argentina, and i do mean that literally. just read up on che govera, he addressed it in some of his literature.
the whole of the latin world despise black , and i would tend to believe is derived from the Moorish conquest from the 8th century till the 13th century of the iberian peninsular.
they forgot one thing though ! it's the moores who civilized them and taught them the arts and build up their society, by making them the most astute and sophisticated european country in that period.
and oh yeah, yuh know that spanish guiter they're so proud of! well guess who gave that to them together with horses. THE SAME NEGRO MOORE WHO THEY LOVE TO HATE.
that's why them spanish muts ( hispanic) love to call black ppl mooreno.
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So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.
But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?
VB
Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT? If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.
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Asylum...good post. Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship. Here is one that I came across a while ago (http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/brief.htm) though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site. I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\
You doh know de answer to that question?? I wouldn't waste my time with it.
Latinos do have a problem with AFricans but many of them also marry Africans. I know endless black people with spouses from Chile, Clombia, Argentina etc. I have found their attitude towards ppl of African descent pretty much like Americans. Some love you, some don't.
VB
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VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
really dumb question.
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So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.
But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?
VB
Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT? If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.
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Asylum...good post. Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship. Here is one that I came across a while ago (http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/feature/ethnic/bv/brief.htm) though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site. I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\
vb. i think you got the original post wrong. the point was not to say black argentines don't necessarily get the breaks today..but more that the population is so small due to historical prejudice, that independent of any possible bias today, blacks are unlikely to turn out on football teams in Argentina.
but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society. Trinis of Indian descent may feel they are unfairly marginalized when it comes to football in T&T even if in most aspects of everyday life they face little or no hurdles. i don't mean to simplify things..but there are aspects in life where a black man has an advantages, or is perceived as naturally more gifted than a white man, even in countries where that black man may face extreme discrimination. indians may not face nearly as much prejudice in every day life as afro argentines, but who's to say that Argentines don't have a more positive perception of black footballers than the average Trini does of indian footballers.
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Filho,
with respect, I got the question, hence the reason I made such an ignorant statement.
When making it about Africans instead of Indians one can perhaps see it in a different light.
In Sam's original post a few months ago about Indians not making the national team, other than being less talented than Africans in this endeavour, I outlined some social, racial and econimic factors that would mitigate their success. I also gave an example of India, a billion ppl, but had political, social and economic factors that held them back.
I am sure that in the last 30 years there might have been some Africans of true talent in Argentina, despite their small numbers. However, a lack of representation is not always indicative of a lack of talent, eg. a lack of world class swimmers and golfers. One has to look at the social, political and other factors that mitigate this success; in addition to just a lack of numbers.
Peace,
VB
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Perhaps Jack should invest some of his considerable resources and known social capital into bridging the involvement gap of Indians in local football?
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VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
really dumb question.
Real dumb you name one right now that could the side
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VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
really dumb question.
Real dumb you name one right now that could the side
Tell me how many in the past weren't given a chance to make the side.
VB
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Filho,
with respect, I got the question, hence the reason I made such an ignorant statement.
When making it about Africans instead of Indians one can perhaps see it in a different light.
In Sam's original post a few months ago about Indians not making the national team, other than being less talented than Africans in this endeavour, I outlined some social, racial and econimic factors that would mitigate their success. I also gave an example of India, a billion ppl, but had political, social and economic factors that held them back.
I am sure that in the last 30 years there might have been some Africans of true talent in Argentina, despite their small numbers. However, a lack of representation is not always indicative of a lack of talent, eg. a lack of world class swimmers and golfers. One has to look at the social, political and other factors that mitigate this success; in addition to just a lack of numbers.
Peace,
VB
Actually, I'm really not sure which original question you claim you got because I still don't see how you could make such a ridiculous comparison. As you rightly said, there are a number of other factors which mitigate against Indians in TnT being more successful at football. While I can't say that these factors don't exist, mitigating against blacks in Argentina, you apparently failed to appreciate the context within which the question was posed.
Compared to neighboring South American countries who've all had similar afro-descent populations, Argentina stands conspicuously alone when one examines the history of her black citizens, when one looks at the dearth of blacks who've made it onto the team...CLEARLY there is something wrong with that picture.
Now let's talk about Indians in TnT. You first need to appreciate that there is a difference between prejudice and racism. I find it absolutely incredulous that you would even try and argue (unless I got your "You doh know de answer to that question?? wrong) that Indians have suffered disproportionate racism in TnT. Has there EVER (at least since Independence) been a systematic attempt to exclude Indians from representation on various levels in Trini society? Have they lacked for opportunities denied them by an entrenched attitude that consider them inferior? I could really go on and on but...again, unless I misunderstand you...I'd like to give you an opportunity to clarify/elaborate, before continuing.
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Filho, I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society." I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did. Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard. This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA. There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.
Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.
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Let me put it in a nutshell.
When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)
Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.
Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. ::)
VB
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Interesting question. However, if you consider soccer is the national sport overthere and over 90% Argentines are either whites or mixed (whites/natives) it quite understandable that they don't have yet a black player representing them.
I do know however that they have had a scholarship program back in the 90s while they were trying to diversify their country. Many Haitian students went to Argentina. Ironically, Mexico has a similar program. I for instance know of one black Haitian player named Alexandre Boucicot in the Mexican league.
We also need to remember the race issue has not yet been addressed in all american countries. If countries like Haiti, Jamaica, Guyana, Surinam, Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Bermuda (in the Caribbean), USA (in North America), and Colombia, Peru, Venezuela (in South America) have had some sort of 'civil rights movement' that has not been the case in many other countries in the region.
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Let me put it in a nutshell.
When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)
Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.
Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. ::)
VB
Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.
their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.
i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.
it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.
no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro. psoitive.
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Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.
their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.
i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.
it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.
no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro. psoitive.
[/quote]
Like de man mash yuh corn JC ;D. Well we went to the same school, so I have some insight into where you coming from. Yuh also bringing back some sweet memories of the small goal sweat in the school yard.
BTW I have also never seen a black Paraguayian, let alone a black footballer from that country.
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Why is this thread relevant?
What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?
Not trying to be cynical- serious questions
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Jus Cool,
although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.
This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.
It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.
VB
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Jus Cool,
although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.
This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.
It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.
VB
Bredder , there was ah time in trinidad and tobago, particularly trinidad where the majority of national players were not black. before corneal and teashera time, for that matter the 40ies and 50ies there was ah limited amount black players in T&T repping the national team.
it was more so french creoles chinese and white dudes, back then, majority of the time ah black fella couldn't even afford ah washykong (dirt cheap brand of slave sneakers) let alone ah pair of tugs.
back then yuh could only imagine kicking ball with ah club , unless someone influential saw yuh and believe yuh had the talent to produce, but more than likely yuh had to stay in yuh sector.
i used to listen to some old timers who played football in those days , men like potty lewis, dennis yip, alvin oliveara,and fred hackshaw just to name ah few.
those guys were discriminated against with the type of discrimination that would most likely hinder anyone from playing the sport ever again, and that did not stop them , instead they persevered and some of them went on to rep the country.
they opened door and made a way for the up and coming generation to follow. bro , i not saying indian are not talented or prejudice, all i'm saying is , the older heads were very discouraging when i came to sports, and they opted for academics instead.
hey i know black parents who did the same with their kids, they pushed education on them, and admonished them to leave off sports and pick up books, the jews are masters of that, they discourage sports and encourage the arts, cultural expressions, business and academics on their children, that's why it's extremely difficult to find a jew , let alone a religious jew in any type of sports.
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Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.
their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.
i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.
it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.
no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro. psoitive.
Like de man mash yuh corn JC ;D. Well we went to the same school, so I have some insight into where you coming from. Yuh also bringing back some sweet memories of the small goal sweat in the school yard.
BTW I have also never seen a black Paraguayian, let alone a black footballer from that country.
[/quote]Yeh boy bridge, those were the days. we used to go home late almost every day, fellas school shirt used to be soacked until they had to take it off and play in their moreno until it dried in the sun, and even then it had fallas who had to ring out their under shirt with sweat, that was some serious sweating.
yuh know how much ring ears and pot spoon i get for coming home late and dirty from sweating in the school yard ! i missed those days.
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Jus Cool,
although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.
This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.
It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.
VB
Bredder , there was ah time in trinidad and tobago, particularly trinidad where the majority of national players were not black. before corneal and teashera time, for that matter the 40ies and 50ies there was ah limited amount black players in T&T repping the national team.
it was more so french creoles chinese and white dudes, back then, majority of the time ah black fella couldn't even afford ah washykong (dirt cheap brand of slave sneakers) let alone ah pair of tugs.
back then yuh could only imagine kicking ball with ah club , unless someone influential saw yuh and believe yuh had the talent to produce, but more than likely yuh had to stay in yuh sector.
i used to listen to some old timers who played football in those days , men like potty lewis, dennis yip, alvin oliveara,and fred hackshaw just to name ah few.
those guys were discriminated against with the type of discrimination that would most likely hinder anyone from playing the sport ever again, and that did not stop them , instead they persevered and some of them went on to rep the country.
they opened door and made a way for the up and coming generation to follow. bro , i not saying indian are not talented or prejudice, all i'm saying is , the older heads were very discouraging when i came to sports, and they opted for academics instead.
hey i know black parents who did the same with their kids, they pushed education on them, and admonished them to leave off sports and pick up books, the jews are masters of that, they discourage sports and encourage the arts, cultural expressions, business and academics on their children, that's why it's extremely difficult to find a jew , let alone a religious jew in any type of sports.
"Washykong" blast from the past word dred!
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Let me put it in a nutshell.
When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)
Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.
Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. ::)
VB
I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT. Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT. Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name.
If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society. Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.
In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well. Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT. In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad. Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?
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A number of people of Spanish descent call dem Argentine folks racist.......so yuh kno wat dat mean if d pot calling d kettle black.........it must be rell black
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Why is this thread relevant?
What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?
Not trying to be cynical- serious questions
Kicker if you do any sort of research...ever cursory on the black experience in Argentina you'll likely have answers to your questions. Argentina has had more or less the same sized African populations of it's neighbors but several factors contributed to the systemic decline of the population... including the forced conscription of blacks to fight against Paraguay at the end of the 19th century, to mandatory quarantine of blacks within the areas heaviest hit by yellow fever near the start of the 20th century. Then you add less tangible social factors like racism and what's left is a society where today there isn't even a separate designation on official census forms for Argentinians of African descent. It's like they don't exist. So yeah, of course if you reduce the pool of blacks in the population you reduce the pool of black footballers, which leaves a slim pool of footballers talented enough to push for a spot on the national squad. Whether those one or two ever materialized and what was their experience with selection is the stuff of conjecture.
For those interested here are just a couple more links:
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html
http://baires.elsur.org/archives/in-search-of-the-mythical-afro-argentine/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/MNGH0FU3UG1.DTL
A number of people of Spanish descent call dem Argentine folks racist.......so yuh kno wat dat mean if d pot calling d kettle black.........it must be rell black
Never thought I'd see the day when I wish Otorongo was online, lol
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Let me put it in a nutshell.
When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)
Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.
Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. ::)
VB
I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT. Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT. Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name.
If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society. Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.
In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well. Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT. In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad. Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?
It's ironic that you speak of a 'lack of research,' and then spout such nonsense.
I am not denying that there are ethnocentric (and racist Indians) in TT. However, that does not excuse any race being just as ignorant.
There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard. Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.
I will openly tell you that if you gave Indians a chance to run cricket in TT, they might frigg it up due to racism. I say this only becz of the rubbish I hear the Indian cricket fans from the country speaking. (and I am Indian)
However, this does not give any race the right to make prejudiced decisions.
My grandfather was an Indian politician in TT, and I can give you numerous examples of bias. Do you know that political ridings were changed in such ways as to access the African populus for the PNM. How about the many small Islanders that were allowed into TT with just the clothes on their back and given land. You think the PNM didn't get votes for that. How many Indians you think could just run over from Guyana with nothing and get land.
When you talk about Indians being under represented at every level in other countries, this indicates your lack of research as to why? Again this has been hashed, just go to the search Engine on SWN and find it.
I have observed racism and a "just doh give a f..." attitude too many times in TT, to take you seriously. What I find bemusing is that when it's another race doing it, Indians and Africans alike, love to prim and howl. However, when its their own race doing it, they get dotish. Or believe that becz other races are bigotted, it's ok for them to act as such. Reverse discrimination is alive and kicking in TT. If you dont' know this, then they have done a good job of sweeping it under that carpet.
Just keep blaming the White man and Christoper Columbus for everybody problems.
VB
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It's ironic that you speak of a 'lack of research,' and then spout such nonsense.
I am not denying that there are ethnocentric (and racist Indians) in TT. However, that does not excuse any race being just as ignorant.
There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard.
Yes that must be it... is only hard work right? So by implications, other groups such as blacks don't work hard hence they're not as successful, right?
I don't suppose the insularity of indo-Trini society (to a large extent) has anything to do with that?
Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.
Have indo-Fijians nearly the same degree of cohesiveness as a group, socio-politico-and economic power as in TnT?
Let me know when you find the answer so I could refute the rest of this silly-ass comparison to Fiji.
I will openly tell you that if you gave Indians a chance to run cricket in TT, they might frigg it up due to racism. I say this only becz of the rubbish I hear the Indian cricket fans from the country speaking. (and I am Indian)
However, this does not give any race the right to make prejudiced decisions.
Nobody said anything about any race having a right. The issue, since you're being obtuse...is that you clearly don't know the difference between prejudice and racism.
My grandfather was an Indian politician in TT, and I can give you numerous examples of bias. Do you know that political ridings were changed in such ways as to access the African populus for the PNM. How about the many small Islanders that were allowed into TT with just the clothes on their back and given land. You think the PNM didn't get votes for that. How many Indians you think could just run over from Guyana with nothing and get land.
I dunno nutten about 'political ridings', but feel free to expound. I personally knew of a couple Indian PNM-ites... and I not talking about a token one or two, but high-ranking members of the party. Not just men like Kamal, but also lesser know, but influential men like Hardeo Hardath. So tell me again about what yuh grandfather had tuh say about racism in the PNM.
As for all this talk about small-islanders coming wid clothes on they back and all this nonsense... bring yuh proof of denied opportunities to Indians and then we can talk.
When you talk about Indians being under represented at every level in other countries, this indicates your lack of research as to why? Again this has been hashed, just go to the search Engine on SWN and find it.
I doh have to research shit fella... I been on this site long enough... and longer still before I was active to see the several discussions about why there aren't more indian footballers in TnT. As a matter of fact if YOU go do the research you would see that I was one of the main people arguing against the nonsense genetics talk that men was spouting in dem.
However none of this addresses the central fallacy in your position that it is racism... or even prejudice that is keeping Indo-Trini ballers back. When you can show the same thing happening around the world, then you might have an argument that it's NOT the same global factors at play in TnT. Of course Indo-Trini ballers could just be that more special than their other bredrins in the diaspora right? Other factors conspire to keep Indian ballers down around the world... but is only racism dat is de hurdle in Trinidad. But you talk about knowing better than to take me seriously, lol
I have observed racism and a "just doh give a f..." attitude too many times in TT, to take you seriously. What I find bemusing is that when it's another race doing it, Indians and Africans alike, love to prim and howl. However, when its their own race doing it, they get dotish. Or believe that becz other races are bigotted, it's ok for them to act as such. Reverse discrimination is alive and kicking in TT. If you dont' know this, then they have done a good job of sweeping it under that carpet.
Just keep blaming the White man and Christoper Columbus for everybody problems.
VB
I see yuh boil down from de 'racism' talk and now talking about "bigotted" and "discrimination", and "prejudice". The very fact that you're in here using these terms interchangeably tells me all I need to know about you and where you coming from with this shit talk.
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VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
really dumb question.
Real dumb you name one right now that could the side
probably the same thing a racist Argentine would say about Afro-Argentines if he was on this message board. bet it would sound dumb then.
ok..why do you think there aren't any good enough to make the side?
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Let me put it in a nutshell.
When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)
Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.
Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. ::)
VB
I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT. Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT. Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name.
If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society. Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.
In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well. Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT. In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad. Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?
There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard. Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.VB
VB, you may need to reword those statements to make yourself clear. Because, they truely sound racist and I am not sure that's the point you're trying to make.
There are hundreds of millions of poor Indians in India itself. Socio-political factors are more likely the reason why Indians (and most foreigners like Lebanese, Syrians, and Moroccans) prospere in post-colonial societies, not racial superiority.
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Filho, I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society." I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did. Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard. This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA. There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.
Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.
breds..my post was actually saying the indo-trini experience is NOT anything like the afro-Argentine experience in most walks of life. and you actually got it with the NBA reference. I was saying that even if a certain people face little to no discrimination in most walks of life, they may still be, rightly or wrongly, perceived as less capable in some areas of society (such as whites in basketball or track&field sprints). and yes..i am simplifying for the sake of argument on a message board. My point is, you don't have to suffer rampant prejudice to be marginalized at something, nor does facing rampant prejudice mean your marginalized in all aspects of society. You berate people for not doing research, but with all your research, your thoughts on afro-Argentine treatment in football is in the end just assumption. where in all of your research does it actually prove that Argentine coaches in general don't think blacks make great footballers today? i understand how you draw your conclusion, but you're extrapolating and i'd rather know more about the afro-argentine experience in football. for now, all i take away from what i've read and seen is that the afro-argentine population is relatively small and marginalized in most aspects of society...whether that means that afro-Argentines who want to play ball are actually treated different from the non-whites is not actually clear
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Filho, I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society." I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did. Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard. This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA. There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.
Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.
breds..my post was actually saying the indo-trini experience is NOT anything like the afro-Argentine experience in most walks of life. and you actually got it with the NBA reference. I was saying that even if a certain people face little to no discrimination in most walks of life, they may still be, rightly or wrongly, perceived as less capable in some areas of society (such as whites in basketball or track&field sprints). and yes..i am simplifying for the sake of argument on a message board. My point is, you don't have to suffer rampant prejudice to be marginalized at something, nor does facing rampant prejudice mean your marginalized in all aspects of society. You berate people for not doing research, but with all your research, your thoughts on afro-Argentine treatment in football is in the end just assumption. where in all of your research does it actually prove that Argentine coaches in general don't think blacks make great footballers today? i understand how you draw your conclusion, but you're extrapolating and i'd rather know more about the afro-argentine experience in football. for now, all i take away from what i've read and seen is that the afro-argentine population is relatively small and marginalized in most aspects of society...whether that means that afro-Argentines who want to play ball are actually treated different from the non-whites is not actually clear
You've clarified your own position, but perhaps you would have done well enough by not confusing any of my statements in drawing your conclusions:
"but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."
What I gather from this is that you seem to interpret my position as saying..."Indians have done well in some pockets of society (economically), therefore it cannot be true that they have suffered discrimination or marginalization or prejudice". In fact I never said any such thing nor did I ever imply such a thing, which is why I said I don't know how you could have derived that from my comments. In your comment above you talk about rampant prejudice and marginalization... but if you go back to the post I made which you referenced, I was talking specifically about racism. I've been working under the assumption that folks recognize that there is a difference between racism and mere bias/prejudice/marginalization. I'm beginning to suspect that I am wrong for assuming such.
Now all this other fool talk about how I does 'berate' people for not doing research... I berated no one, I simply pointed out what seemed readily apparent to me, that vb was speaking from an uninfomed position, a situation that one doesn't need a PhD or thesis to rectfy as a simple internet search would yield the information. So I hardly think that I was holding him to some unreasonable standard in that regard... and I hardly think that that constitutes 'berate' in any manner.
And yes, at the end of the day my thoughts on the dearth of Afro-Argentine footballers is just an assumption since no one has actually ever published any scholarship on the matter. Nor should we expect anyone to publish anything, because officially Argentina has no people of African descent, and anyone appearing too 'dark' are assumed to be from elsewhere. Can't expect an invisible people to show up in the consciousness of Argentina... let alone the national team. And before you accuse me of making further assumptions you might want to follow some of the links I provided.
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VB, you may need to reword those statements to make yourself clear. Because, they truely sound racist and I am not sure that's the point you're trying to make.
There are hundreds of millions of poor Indians in India itself. Socio-political factors are more likely the reason why Indians (and most foreigners like Lebanese, Syrians, and Moroccans) prospere in post-colonial societies, not racial superiority.
Toussaint in all fairness to him I don't think he's saying they succeeded because they're superior in any regard... I interpreted as him offering evidence that even faced with official racism in Fijian society, they have still risen to become an economic force.
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Why is this thread relevant?
What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?
The main reason that you don't see blacks playing for Argentina is that there are almost none to choose from.
A few years back I spent over 2 weeks in Buenos Aires and I could count the total number of black people I saw on one hand. In fact, when I finally met one at a nightclub he turned out to be an American who played for the Boca Jrs basketball team.
Something else to keep in mind is that Argentina developed primarily as a cattle raising country, as opposed to an agricultural one. Huge parts of the country were made up of the Pampas where the herds grazed and were tended (this is still the case today). This didn't require the huge amount of slave labor that was needed for plantation farming. So while Argentina did have a slave population it was nothing compared to Brazil's, for example.
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Is just take one racist to end ah indian football career boommmmmmmmmm,it done .Foot swell up big like ah football and mammy eint want yah tha play with them men again ,iodex to expensive to buy every week lol .When men say Avery hit ah man ah blade it is sound cool eh ....but it not cool .Especially when Ppl moms extent of rehab is hot water and wonder of the world and love.
ARGENTINA KILL OUT ALL THEM BLACK PPL JED ,jc teach me that a few months ago, :-\ I love Diego eh ,but me never supporting that country again yah know jed .
PS ah indian couldn be accepted ,good on ah ten days back in the day ,how the hell he go fall een on a team properly ....mine u things changing now eh with this generation ,but it go take a next good generation to ketch up.Cause the ppl with the football knowledge is blacks ,so them have to share it with Indians .
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Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought
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The main reason that you don't see blacks playing for Argentina is that there are almost none to choose from.
A few years back I spent over 2 weeks in Buenos Aires and I could count the total number of black people I saw on one hand. In fact, when I finally met one at a nightclub he turned out to be an American who played for the Boca Jrs basketball team.
Something else to keep in mind is that Argentina developed primarily as a cattle raising country, as opposed to an agricultural one. Huge parts of the country were made up of the Pampas where the herds grazed and were tended (this is still the case today). This didn't require the huge amount of slave labor that was needed for plantation farming. So while Argentina did have a slave population it was nothing compared to Brazil's, for example.
No one had a slave population like Brazil... not even the US, so let's leave Brazil out of it. Argentina's slave population compared favorably with some of her other neighbors though, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay... so yes, it was more than just cattle ranching on the Pampas.
There are some other reasons that were touched upon relating to why there aren't that many 'blacks' in Argentina today... and it isn't because they were never brought there. Your other point is well-noted though (about not witnessing too many while there), so thanks for chiming in :beermug:
Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought
Gawd Fishs...follow mih nuh. I'm not saying that prejudice and discrimination doesn't affect Indo-Trinis, in fact I'm sure they do... but that's a different kettle of fish than racism itself. I'm sure to those suffering the brunt, the nuances is small consolation, but that's no excuse for us to conflate them all into one.
I will grant you though that actual racism may be more of a reality in certain sectors of the civil service (police, army) than in others. Even so, much of that is a more a manifestation of classism than racism, but I won't discount the latter in that regard.
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Yah know what ;D ,since jack warner ,so in tight with the UNC .I demand he do something about the lack of involvement of this section of society with organized football ...eh why not.
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Is just take one racist to end ah indian football career boommmmmmmmmm,it done .Foot swell up big like ah football and mammy eint want yah tha play with them men again ,iodex to expensive to buy every week lol .When men say Avery hit ah man ah blade it is sound cool eh ....but it not cool .Especially when Ppl moms extent of rehab is hot water and wonder of the world.
ARGENTINA KILL OUT ALL THEM BLACK PPL JED ,jc teach me that a few months ago, :-\ I love Diego eh ,but me never supporting that country again yah know jed .
PS ah indian couldn be accepted ,good on ah ten days back in the day ,how the hell he go fall een on a team properly ....mine u things changing now eh with this generation ,but it go take a next good generation to ketch up.Cause the ppl with the football knowledge is blacks ,so them have to share it with Indians .
Thanx for the compliment dread :-\, BTW it never had projects ( dewd) in coroni, penal, and caripichima ?
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Yah know what ;D ,since jack warner ,so in tight with the UNC .I demand he do something about the lack of involvement of this section of society with organized football ...eh why not.
I sure he could find one or two li'l hard foot fellas who could kick ball from Chaguanas...ent? ;D
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Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought
Yuh know sometimes i does do meh best to stay clear of this kinda ah discourse, but my life experience doesn't really allow it.
now i know it have quite ah few ethnicity's who are members on this message board, and i don't want to come accross as insensitive to any one group, but i love to speak the truth and set the record straight even if it's against myself.
now fishes you is one of a few members who i does go on cool with, as a matter of fact i don't need to be fussing and fighting with folks in cyber space , it just don't make any kind of sense to me, but on this occasion i will have to challenge yuh on what you said.
racism in T&T is alive and well and doing fine, he dwells mainly amongst the the highly cultural minded, and has many differant houses all over T&T.
when i lived in trinidad i worked in ah few places, most of them being amongst a predominantly indian demographic, and i must say that it was some of the most unpleasurable experiences apart from when i worked amongst spanish folk here in the US.
it was antagonistic from day one , i had men and women ganged up on me asking me to quit for no other reason than " why yuh have to come up here to work and we in this area don't have no wok, why yuh din get ah wok in tong weh yuh from " all that so they could bring in ah relative or ah friend to replace me.
i've been called nigger by them when i worked in piarco for bwia , also @ coura thoracic hospital, every day i got dirty looks and stares like i was from another planet.
ppl threatened me every day i went to work, especially up in caura, eventually i was transfered back to POS general, and if that wasn't bad enough, when i worked @ POS general it had two female clerks who wanted to get me fired for no forkin reason, one name rookmin, and the other sandra.
when i worked in those places the indians stuck to them selves in ah group settings like it only have indian in T&T and no body else, i was so suprise to see ppl behave so hostile and unwelcoming.
now i'm not saying that all indians are like that, not @ all, the indians who were raised in the north , POS ,st james ,diego, the valley real cool and hip and don't have dem kinda weard hang ups, ah guess what i'm saying is, the ones from rural trinidad real forkin loss in deh clandestine cultural confusion. and that mindset is what left ah lasting negative impression on me.
as far as indians being discriminated against, that's always ah possibility, but i don't think black ppl in trinidad have that kind of economic and political power to to destroy or hamper the progress of other ethnic groups, but i could be wrong !
i grew up amongst some real indian haters, particularly for country indians,( not town indians) and the vast majority were elders. i never understood that kind of animosity towards human being so i choose not to buy into that.
a lot of the ppl from my generation saw it the same as me, we just wanted to live and let live, i hope one day all this horse sh!t would die with the older heads, BC the world to modern for that kind of backward thinking ! maybe one day. may god help us to defeat that devil vibes. positive.
PS: ah remember when i worked @ piarco, there was ah slogan on the drive inn theatre named kaydonna that showed only indian movies. the slogan was in big visable spray painted letters just as yuh entered st helena by the drive inn that said NO NIGGERS ALLOWED for all my years in POS , i never ever saw anything to denegrate any other ethnic groups EVER !!!!!
also in the airport stalls there were a lot of racist messages calling black ppl lazy, monkey man, and all kinda negative BS, them country bookie indians really full ah hate oui dread. did sat maraj ever worked in the airport ?
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Jah know, this thread real real blossom since my last visit! :-\
palos, ah hadda add a borse name of a nex significant baller regarding Mexico. Ah know de discussion was moreso dealing with the state of play today, but this is a special baller. Plus, de past and de future are intertwined.
Special baller. He had his jersey number retired in 1982 It was unretired briefly in 2005 when his old club Tigres was participating in Copa Libertadores competition. Competition regulations required that uniforms had to be numbered consecutively from 1-25 so they went with it.
The player is Jeronimo Barbadillo (sometimes spelt with a 'G'). Won two league titles with Tigres. Went onto to play and coach at Udinese. Was successful there. Legendary player. Check him out. He played for Peru with the same number. #7. Played with Cubillas.
(http://sp3.fotologs.net/photo/51/18/85/dx_92/1212120413_f.jpg)
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Bake N Shark,
u obviously in love with your opinions and don't really wish to know what else exists out there.
Let me summarise:
Indians in the PNM, yes I know them too. dey make dey money too - Token Coolies and they know it. Every race oriented party has them. How you think JOhn, Mark and others end up with Panday? I give Manning credit in that he has widened the tokenism as much as he could, to the point where he get buff by party members.
The problem in Fiji has been WELL documented. Yes, the Indians in Fiji have far greater cohesiveness and social economic sway than those in TT. Have you ever been to Fiji. Have you seen how they live? I have.
However, due to their ethnocentric nature, they are loathed by local Fijians, to the point where twice they've had an Indian PM removed forcibly. They then banned Indians from Taking part in democratic elections and running for office. They UN had to step in and as said earlier, the Australians had to literally invade the country a few years ago and save the (Indian) PM.
If for decades your race gets negatively treated in a particular endeavour, it's normal that you would get discouraged. Look at Graeme Rodriguez, he said that in later years, he wondered why he was playing football competitively, when ppl would be making comments about his colour and race at the sidelines and nobody at national training would look at him speak to him or pass him a ball.
Look at Kelvin Ramnath a NY Golden Gloves Champ and undefeated in TT, tell him NOVICES were getting picked before him to represent TT and it's not about race.
Just Cool, sorry to hear about your experiences. I always feel like I need to apologise for such Indians. Some of it is bitterness towards the way the PNM rigg elections towards them back in the days (they found a couple hundred votes for my Grandfather after an election under a bridge, had those votes not been 'lost' we would have had a new Govt. :-)..........some of it is just pure nastiness and racism.
My cousin experienced the same thing from black officers when he tried to join the police force. Every day it was a "coolie dis and a coolie dat." and what coolie want to do in the Police. He eventually left the trainining academy. Perhaps he should've been stronger but easy for me to say.
Bake N Shark maybe somebody should explain to all of these ppl that it's 'prejudice' not racism.
VB
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You've clarified your own position, but perhaps you would have done well enough by not confusing any of my statements in drawing your conclusions:
"but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."
What I gather from this is that you seem to interpret my position as saying..."Indians have done well in some pockets of society (economically), therefore it cannot be true that they have suffered discrimination or marginalization or prejudice". In fact I never said any such thing nor did I ever imply such a thing, which is why I said I don't know how you could have derived that from my comments. In your comment above you talk about rampant prejudice and marginalization... but if you go back to the post I made which you referenced, I was talking specifically about racism. I've been working under the assumption that folks recognize that there is a difference between racism and mere bias/prejudice/marginalization. I'm beginning to suspect that I am wrong for assuming such.
Now all this other fool talk about how I does 'berate' people for not doing research... I berated no one, I simply pointed out what seemed readily apparent to me, that vb was speaking from an uninfomed position, a situation that one doesn't need a PhD or thesis to rectfy as a simple internet search would yield the information. So I hardly think that I was holding him to some unreasonable standard in that regard... and I hardly think that that constitutes 'berate' in any manner.
And yes, at the end of the day my thoughts on the dearth of Afro-Argentine footballers is just an assumption since no one has actually ever published any scholarship on the matter. Nor should we expect anyone to publish anything, because officially Argentina has no people of African descent, and anyone appearing too 'dark' are assumed to be from elsewhere. Can't expect an invisible people to show up in the consciousness of Argentina... let alone the national team. And before you accuse me of making further assumptions you might want to follow some of the links I provided.
bakes..as you said, i've clarified my position. i used words like prejudice and not racism, cuz racism is a specific type of prejudice and I was trying to be a little more general. i made none of the assumptions about your statement you think i did. i was simply responding to your one liner to say, that even though indians in T&T and blacks in Argentina seem to have nothing in common, there can be certain instances where blacks in Argentina may be better off than Indians in T&T. My bad for trying to start it off with a statement that you believe wrongly summarized your intent...but i think what i've written since clears up my point.
didn't realize berate was sucha bad word
also..afro-argentines are making strides in making their voices heard. I don't fully agree with most of your last paragraph. I know your style enough to assume maybe you were being a bit tongue in cheek. But I have faith the afro-Argentine voice will be heard more and more. By the way..if anyone watches Argentine football and look at the Boca Junior ball boys you will see that there is a black youth in the junior team. Can't be more than 12-13 years old. Their youth team work as ball boys and I've seen him on more than one occasion. Lewwe see if he makes it through the ranks. If he does, there will eventually be more and more. And despite the attempts by scholars, politicos, activists..etc...nothing like sport to open people's eyes and start discourse...
had a look at your links bakes. read much of it before and lots of other stuff. tired debating racism in Brazil and Argentina with my argie and brazuca friends. they're not your typical demographic, but my argie friends are very educated aboout blacks in Argentina but have met only one or two in their lifetime. I didn't see one in my one and only trip to Argentina. Will be back in November for a wedding..my son's godfather is Argentine. From my personal experience, people were really friendly..my take is that they generally love kids and people will stop you in the street to tell you how beautiful your kids are and talk to you. Most assumed I was Brazilian which I thought was funny and gels with the idea that Argentines don't believe there are any blacks there. But on two occasions, people assumed we were Argentine...maybe just being polite. But I do believe our generation are a lot more educated on the topic and balck Argentines will cease to be a 'myth' soon :beermug:
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vb, i sense your heart is in the right place ... doh undermine your credibility by making rash statements ... ah think you're better than the Guyana comment above ... and i believe that you have a perspective rooted in a truth as understood through a lens that some on the forum are unaware of ... the problem comes when the narrative is told by blending perceived reality with actuality; merging facts with the insurgency of political and generational myths; adding hyperbole to known reality ... we all have to be responsible guardians of telling the story ...
as far as Fiji, the facts are not as convenient as your first assessment. As you likely know, Fiji's racial contours are similar in dimension and history to T&T's, but the root of the prosperity and the forces shaping the tensions are not sourced as you initially framed them. You made it seem like there is only one variable in the equation. In the posting immediately above this one, you handled it incompletely but better.
i am surprised you've dedicated so much attention to the direction the thread took, rather than to a comment like quagmire's dealing with brokering change and participation in sports ... i believe that a sea-change can be achieved in that arena
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Bakes, it's irresponsible to say Indians did not suffer any racism in Trinidad ... regardless of whether segments of Indian society wield(ed) economic power or leverage(d) race in awarding outcomes ...
and while the presence of Indians in the PNM may seem to be signficant, it still does not disrupt or controvert racism in Trinidad as pertains to Indians (i am pondering the 70s for some reason, looking forward)
similarly, vb ... you use the word 'token' too loosely ...
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Bake N Shark,
u obviously in love with your opinions and don't really wish to know what else exists out there.
Let me summarise:
Indians in the PNM, yes I know them too. dey make dey money too - Token Coolies and they know it. Every race oriented party has them. How you think JOhn, Mark and others end up with Panday? I give Manning credit in that he has widened the tokenism as much as he could, to the point where he get buff by party members.
The problem in Fiji has been WELL documented. Yes, the Indians in Fiji have far greater cohesiveness and social economic sway than those in TT. Have you ever been to Fiji. Have you seen how they live? I have.
However, due to their ethnocentric nature, they are loathed by local Fijians, to the point where twice they've had an Indian PM removed forcibly. They then banned Indians from Taking part in democratic elections and running for office. They UN had to step in and as said earlier, the Australians had to literally invade the country a few years ago and save the (Indian) PM.
If for decades your race gets negatively treated in a particular endeavour, it's normal that you would get discouraged. Look at Graeme Rodriguez, he said that in later years, he wondered why he was playing football competitively, when ppl would be making comments about his colour and race at the sidelines and nobody at national training would look at him speak to him or pass him a ball.
Look at Kelvin Ramnath a NY Golden Gloves Champ and undefeated in TT, tell him NOVICES were getting picked before him to represent TT and it's not about race.
Just Cool, sorry to hear about your experiences. I always feel like I need to apologise for such Indians. Some of it is bitterness towards the way the PNM rigg elections towards them back in the days (they found a couple hundred votes for my Grandfather after an election under a bridge, had those votes not been 'lost' we would have had a new Govt. :-)..........some of it is just pure nastiness and racism.
My cousin experienced the same thing from black officers when he tried to join the police force. Every day it was a "coolie dis and a coolie dat." and what coolie want to do in the Police. He eventually left the trainining academy. Perhaps he should've been stronger but easy for me to say.
Bake N Shark maybe somebody should explain to all of these ppl that it's 'prejudice' not racism.
VB
Thanks for the insight on Fiji, never been there...and clearly not as familiar with the situation there as you are. I knew that Indians in Fiji had a tough lot with racism, concede as much in attempting to cast their experience as being different from Indians in TnT. But again...Fiji not on my radar so I wasn't intimately aware of the details.
Additionally, maybe in your haste to come tell me about my love for my own opinion you missed where I stated to Fishs' that the discrimination in the Police service may in fact rise to the level of racism.
I can only conclude that you've decided to let your emotions get the better of you...only way to reconcile the fact I tried to clarify your statements to Toussaint, yet you come back with this bullshit talk about me being in love with my opinion to the detriment of others. You're a fella I've always found to be knowledgeable and rational, but it's becoming clear that yuh feathers get ruffled in dis thread. Rather than respond in kind I'll just stop where I am and leave yuh tuh go sort out yuhself .
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Bakes, it's irresponsible to say Indians did not suffer any racism in Trinidad ... regardless of whether segments of Indian society wield(ed) economic power or leverage(d) race in awarding outcomes ...
and while the presence of Indians in the PNM may seem to be signficant, it still does not disrupt or controvert racism in Trinidad as pertains to Indians (i am pondering the 70s for some reason, looking forward)
similarly, vb ... you use the word 'token' too loosely ...
I have never one day lived as an Indian so I obviously can't speak authoritatively on anyone's personal experience. That said, you say it's irresponsible of me to say that they didn't experience racism... then by all means, help me understand where I am wrong. My comments aren't being made in nearly the vacuum that I suspect you think they are... but I await your elaboration still.
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Just Cool... I wouldn't put all of it on 'rural' or 'country bookie' Indians... I suspect you more mean those from Central (perhaps south as well, i dunno). I grew up in Valencia and my mother's family is from Toco... other than some minor incidents with some from Grande (primary school in Guaico), I can honestly say that a vast majority of the Indians I interacted with outside my own family were good honest and fair people. I agree with you though that Indians from the North in general have a much more open attitude.
Filho... respect as always :beermug:
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As the USA is the Olympic Goal medal winners
...There are a lot of very good Black players in the pool ...
How many black players were on this
team ? How many got run? .... I dont know the answer.
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These faulty conclusions does make me wonder: No blacks playing for Argentina they must be a racist country.
No Native Americans playing for USA or Canada these countries must be manifesting their racist tendencies...lawd..... logic logic gone through the window.
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Black Population
Colombia- 10.6 % of 43.6 million
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/82695027.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB06D4EE593DB8829EE284831B75F48EF45)
Honduras- 2 % of 7,483,763
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/82487613.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0E6FA0223FA09431B284831B75F48EF45)
Costa Rica-3 % of 4,133,884 (I not so sure about this one)
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/82488184.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0AD4EF039DD104E04284831B75F48EF45)
The coach is also black.
Ecuador - 5 % of 13,755,680
(http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/82693658.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB094912A12D63DF617284831B75F48EF45)
Uruguay 9.1 % of 3,477,778 (Historically the best small football country in the World)
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/82620810.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0F2DE5C27FC850ED6284831B75F48EF45)
Uruguay usually has a few black players in their team. I can't even find Diogo in this photo.
Venezuela- Seems like the figures unclear for them
(http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81571430.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934B869679A269F9CCCBA8B0763420DBDB284831B75F48EF45)
Brazil -38.5 % of 190 million
(http://www.thefa.com/NR/rdonlyres/5A5194FF-FB92-465A-9AAB-748821058294/88121/Brazil_Team_L.jpg)
During the last WC
Paraguay - Estimated 63,000 of 6,158,000
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/82694665.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB00E2298D414A213B0284831B75F48EF45)
I've never see a black player on this side.
Peru- Unclear stats but less than 2 % of 28 million
(http://www.peru.com/futbol/AutoNoticias/FutbolFotos/2007/06/06/ImagenNoticia122857.jpg)
Argentina- Estimated 52,000 of 40 million
I won't even bother to put a picture.
Just to touch on the situation at home. I for one would like to see more indian Trinis adopt football as a career. Go to a Pro League game and you will find it difficult to pick out an indian player on the field. There are a few in the Super League and nothing to speak about especially when indians make up 40 % of the total population of T&T. I not buying that shit some men does talk about indians skinny and weak so they inferior to blacks in football. And I definitely don't buy that indians don't play football because of discrimination. If indians actually chose to play football at a competitive professional level we would see more indians in the pro league and hopefully some good enough to play on national teams (men, women, youth and senior).
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No one had a slave population like Brazil... not even the US, so let's leave Brazil out of it. Argentina's slave population compared favorably with some of her other neighbors though, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay... so yes, it was more than just cattle ranching on the Pampas.
There are some other reasons that were touched upon relating to why there aren't that many 'blacks' in Argentina today... and it isn't because they were never brought there. Your other point is well-noted though (about not witnessing too many while there), so thanks for chiming in :beermug:
I never said that blacks were never brought there. Just that much fewer were brought there compared to a plantation colony like Brazil. One of the articles that you linked states that African slaves were brought there to work as primarily as domestic servants. But a plantation-based economy would require far greater numbers of slaves.
And I mentioned Brazil because the very first post in this thread asked:
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity?
This poster fails to recognize that Brazil and Argentina developed much differently from each other in terms of agriculture and economics.
As far as Argentina's neighbors are concerned, you don't see too many blacks playing for Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia either, do you? Uruguay is a different story, since their substantial amount of black players is still not indicative of how low of a percentage they make up in the society as a whole.
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I never said that blacks were never brought there. Just that much fewer were brought there compared to a plantation colony like Brazil. One of the articles that you linked states that African slaves were brought there to work as primarily as domestic servants. But a plantation-based economy would require far greater numbers of slaves.
And I mentioned Brazil because the very first post in this thread asked:
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity?
This poster fails to recognize that Brazil and Argentina developed much differently from each other in terms of agriculture and economics.
As far as Argentina's neighbors are concerned, you don't see too many blacks playing for Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia either, do you? Uruguay is a different story, since their substantial amount of black players is still not indicative of how low of a percentage they make up in the society as a whole.
Key words being too many... however few, they're still more than Argentina has ever had.
Jah Gol... good post.
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I never said that blacks were never brought there. Just that much fewer were brought there compared to a plantation colony like Brazil. One of the articles that you linked states that African slaves were brought there to work as primarily as domestic servants. But a plantation-based economy would require far greater numbers of slaves.
And I mentioned Brazil because the very first post in this thread asked:
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity?
This poster fails to recognize that Brazil and Argentina developed much differently from each other in terms of agriculture and economics.
As far as Argentina's neighbors are concerned, you don't see too many blacks playing for Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia either, do you? Uruguay is a different story, since their substantial amount of black players is still not indicative of how low of a percentage they make up in the society as a whole.
Key words being too many... however few, they're still more than Argentina has ever had.
Jah Gol... good post.
Personally, I doh remember none ever playin 4 Chile, Paraguay or Bolivia. But Wikipedia might prove me wrong, lol.
Anyone in this thread been to Argentina?
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The only black player that I can remember for playing for Bolivia was Ramiro Castillo, nicknamed "Chocolatín" (Little Chocolate). He commited suicide over 10 years ago.
(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9822/Castillo.jpg)
As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
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As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
What... you don't think Chilavert looks a little dark?
;D
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The only black player that I can remember for playing for Bolivia was Ramiro Castillo, nicknamed "Chocolatín" (Little Chocolate). He commited suicide over 10 years ago.
(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9822/Castillo.jpg)
As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
I guess so :D
I agree wid A.B. Trini...the Argentine Black population is small and so you can't make a valid connection between there being no Black footballers on the national team and Argentina being racist. While the latter might be true (no idea whether it is or not), statistically you wouldnt expect there to be any black players, given the small population. So, the answer to "Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?" is that there just aren't enough Afro-Argentines for it to be likely. "Is Argentina racist?" is a different topic.
O...and....David Trezeguet. Born in France to Argentine parents. Family moved back there and he grew up in Argentina, native Spanish speaker. Started his professional football career in Argentina. Only moved to France when PSG invited him. He would certainly have been called up to play for Argentina had he not chosen France. So there's your sample of one ;D
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The only black player that I can remember for playing for Bolivia was Ramiro Castillo, nicknamed "Chocolatín" (Little Chocolate). He commited suicide over 10 years ago.
(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9822/Castillo.jpg)
As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
I guess so :D
I agree wid A.B. Trini...the Argentine Black population is small and so you can't make a valid connection between there being no Black footballers on the national team and Argentina being racist. While the latter might be true (no idea whether it is or not), statistically you wouldnt expect there to be any black players, given the small population. So, the answer to "Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?" is that there just aren't enough Afro-Argentines for it to be likely. "Is Argentina racist?" is a different topic.
O...and....David Trezeguet. Born in France to Argentine parents. Family moved back there and he grew up in Argentina, native Spanish speaker. Started his professional football career in Argentina. Only moved to France when PSG invited him. He would certainly have been called up to play for Argentina had he not chosen France. So there's your sample of one ;D
DID YOU BOTHER TO EVEN READ JAH GOL'S POST,or every thing just flew over yuh head! HEK! the man even went as far to include pictures to intensify his point, and a good post @ that, now you coming with this flawed assumption that they don't have enough blacks to rep the country. stuuueeepppss !
so 52,000 out of 40 mil ain't ah substantial amount to have @ least one darkey on the team in the history of argentine football ! that is appalling !
tell meh how much blacks it have in germany, but yet still they had ah black ghanian naturalized citizen on their team. poor excuses !!
the countries that never had black representation on their national team. ARGENTINA, SPAIN, MEXICO, ITALY, GREECE. IRELAND. NOT SURE BOUT SCOTLAND, WALES. just to name ah few. i excluded eastern europe BC they never had ah much interaction with black folk, there was little to no blacks living in the eastern block.
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The only black player that I can remember for playing for Bolivia was Ramiro Castillo, nicknamed "Chocolatín" (Little Chocolate). He commited suicide over 10 years ago.
(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9822/Castillo.jpg)
As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
I guess so :D
I agree wid A.B. Trini...the Argentine Black population is small and so you can't make a valid connection between there being no Black footballers on the national team and Argentina being racist. While the latter might be true (no idea whether it is or not), statistically you wouldnt expect there to be any black players, given the small population. So, the answer to "Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?" is that there just aren't enough Afro-Argentines for it to be likely. "Is Argentina racist?" is a different topic.
O...and....David Trezeguet. Born in France to Argentine parents. Family moved back there and he grew up in Argentina, native Spanish speaker. Started his professional football career in Argentina. Only moved to France when PSG invited him. He would certainly have been called up to play for Argentina had he not chosen France. So there's your sample of one ;D
DID YOU BOTHER TO EVEN READ JAH GOL'S POST,or every thing just flew over yuh head! HEK! the man even went as far to include pictures to intensify his point, and a good post @ that, now you coming with this flawed assumption that they don't have enough blacks to rep the country. stuuueeepppss !
so 52,000 out of 40 mil ain't ah substantial amount to have @ least one darkey on the team in the history of argentine football ! that is appalling !
tell meh how much blacks it have in germany, but yet still they had ah black ghanian naturalized citizen on their team. poor excuses !!
the countries that never had black representation on their national team. ARGENTINA, SPAIN, MEXICO, ITALY, GREECE. IRELAND. NOT SURE BOUT SCOTLAND, WALES. just to name ah few. i excluded eastern europe BC they never had ah much interaction with black folk, there was little to no blacks living in the eastern block.
Jah cool, 52,000 out of 40 mil is not significant. Thats about 1 in 800. I doubt there have been 800 players who've played football for Argentina, but maybe I'm wrong. Definitely less than 2000 though. So u mite expect about 2 blacks throughout history. But, statistically, given that 1:800 ratio, d fact dat dey had no black players is not significant.
Also,
Black internationals from the countries you named (which is completely irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, but I'll correct u anyway ;))
Scotland = Nigel Quashie (didnt he score against Trinidad?). There are very few native black Scots anyway.
Wales = Robbie Earnshaw and Ryan Giggs and d new fella Nyatanga...they had loads
Spain = Senna
Italy = Ferrari, Liverani
Ireland = Clinton Morrison (coincidentally, one of his parents is Trini), Phill Babb...they had loads
Cant name none from Greece or Mexico, sorry.
And there are definitely way more than blacks in Germany than Argentina..dont know d stats, but I saw plenty blacks there! :)
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RYAN , you talking bout bleached out half breed fellas like david trezeget, i talking bout men like ronaldino , zee roberto, pele and so forth.
you talk about germany having more black ppl than argentina, how ironic is that when argentina is right next to the country that have the most black ppl out side of africa.
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Diego was a black man I dont care what alyuh say ;D
and Copeland was an Indian who play for trinidad.
copeland really had some negro in him though thanman was big and strong boy :rotfl: :rotfl:
I think the issue has less to do with % of populations and more to do with racism.
May be in Argentina young black kids are not given apportunities to play at top clubs and that is why very few make it through.
Racism exisit in this world. 40 years ago in america the Ncaa had no black basketball players did that have to do with % or natural ability or genetics.
The most obvious reason is Racism!
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RYAN , you talking bout bleached out half breed fellas like david trezeget, i talking bout men like ronaldino , zee roberto, pele and so forth.
you talk about germany having more black ppl than argentina, how ironic is that when argentina is right next to the country that have the most black ppl out side of africa.
I cud c where u coming from, and I not tryin 2say that Argentina isnt racist...I go leave dat for yall to debate cuz I never been dere and I dont know. But at d end of d day, if d black people not there (for whatever reason), they not there. And so they cant represent d country in football. Statistically it seems reasonable that no black people have repped Argentina (and having said that, we all jus guessing anyway, cuz we all jus going by what we see on TV in the last 30 years...for all we know dey cud have had 1 or 2 black fellas gettin a lil sweat back in d 50s or 60s....).
As for Trezeguet not making d grade... being a bleach out half breed myself, I go hadda admit defeat ;D :beermug:
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RYAN , you talking bout bleached out half breed fellas like david trezeget, i talking bout men like ronaldino , zee roberto, pele and so forth.
you talk about germany having more black ppl than argentina, how ironic is that when argentina is right next to the country that have the most black ppl out side of africa.
I cud c where u coming from, and I not tryin 2say that Argentina isnt racist...I go leave dat for yall to debate cuz I never been dere and I dont know. But at d end of d day, if d black people not there (for whatever reason), they not there. And so they cant represent d country in football. Statistically it seems reasonable that no black people have repped Argentina (and having said that, we all jus guessing anyway, cuz we all jus going by what we see on TV in the last 30 years...for all we know dey cud have had 1 or 2 black fellas gettin a lil sweat back in d 50s or 60s....).
As for Trezeguet not making d grade... being a bleach out half breed myself, I go hadda admit defeat ;D :beermug:
You realize we saying Argentina did a type of ethic cleansing and kill them out,to dispose of black ppl from they country rite ,daiz why there are not much
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JC, as far as Greece ... ah not sure dahis correct ... I might be incorrect but I seem to recall mention of a black Greek player on the national team ... the guy I have in mind went on to have a political career there ... now it could be that he kicked for Pana or Olim and not for the NT ... buh maybe yuh eh go like him b/c he might be a Trezeguet look alike.
Buh in de meantime ... Greece has a black basketballer ... hold that fuh now nah :) ... Schortsanitis ... played in Beijing ... I doh know how he manages to get up and down de court
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JC, as far as Greece ... ah not sure dahis correct ... I might be incorrect but I seem to recall mention of a black Greek player on the national team ... the guy I have in mind went on to have a political career there ... now it could be that he kicked for Pana or Olim and not for the NT ... buh maybe yuh eh go like him b/c he might be a Trezeguet look alike.
Buh in de meantime ... Greek has a black basketballer ... hold that fuh now nah :) ... Schortsanitis ... played in Beijing ... I doh know how he manages to get up and down de court
i think greece had ah black fellah in the not too distant past, but i cyah remember for sure..
but seeker, i sense the fellah you referring to who played for panathinaikos is emmanuel olisadebe, but he was not greek, he played for poland.
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JC, as far as Greece ... ah not sure dahis correct ... I might be incorrect but I seem to recall mention of a black Greek player on the national team ... the guy I have in mind went on to have a political career there ... now it could be that he kicked for Pana or Olim and not for the NT ... buh maybe yuh eh go like him b/c he might be a Trezeguet look alike.
Buh in de meantime ... Greek has a black basketballer ... hold that fuh now nah :) ... Schortsanitis ... played in Beijing ... I doh know how he manages to get up and down de court
i think greece had ah black fellah in the not too distant past, but i cyah remember for sure..
but seeker, i sense the fellah you referring to who played for panathinaikos is emmanuel olisadebe, but he was not greek, he played for poland.
come nah man Omar ... yuh insulting meh or wha ;) ... yuh should know ah know better than that ... ah even post bout olisadebe somewhere in de forum files ... is a nex fella
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The only black player that I can remember for playing for Bolivia was Ramiro Castillo, nicknamed "Chocolatín" (Little Chocolate). He commited suicide over 10 years ago.
(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9822/Castillo.jpg)
As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
I guess so :D
I agree wid A.B. Trini...the Argentine Black population is small and so you can't make a valid connection between there being no Black footballers on the national team and Argentina being racist. While the latter might be true (no idea whether it is or not), statistically you wouldnt expect there to be any black players, given the small population. So, the answer to "Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?" is that there just aren't enough Afro-Argentines for it to be likely. "Is Argentina racist?" is a different topic.
O...and....David Trezeguet. Born in France to Argentine parents. Family moved back there and he grew up in Argentina, native Spanish speaker. Started his professional football career in Argentina. Only moved to France when PSG invited him. He would certainly have been called up to play for Argentina had he not chosen France. So there's your sample of one ;D
DID YOU BOTHER TO EVEN READ JAH GOL'S POST,or every thing just flew over yuh head! HEK! the man even went as far to include pictures to intensify his point, and a good post @ that, now you coming with this flawed assumption that they don't have enough blacks to rep the country. stuuueeepppss !
so 52,000 out of 40 mil ain't ah substantial amount to have @ least one darkey on the team in the history of argentine football ! that is appalling !
tell meh how much blacks it have in germany, but yet still they had ah black ghanian naturalized citizen on their team. poor excuses !!
the countries that never had black representation on their national team. ARGENTINA, SPAIN, MEXICO, ITALY, GREECE. IRELAND. NOT SURE BOUT SCOTLAND, WALES. just to name ah few. i excluded eastern europe BC they never had ah much interaction with black folk, there was little to no blacks living in the eastern block.
Jah cool, 52,000 out of 40 mil is not significant. Thats about 1 in 800. I doubt there have been 800 players who've played football for Argentina, but maybe I'm wrong. Definitely less than 2000 though. So u mite expect about 2 blacks throughout history. But, statistically, given that 1:800 ratio, d fact dat dey had no black players is not significant.
Also,
Black internationals from the countries you named (which is completely irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, but I'll correct u anyway ;))
Scotland = Nigel Quashie (didnt he score against Trinidad?). There are very few native black Scots anyway.
Wales = Robbie Earnshaw and Ryan Giggs and d new fella Nyatanga...they had loads
Spain = Senna
Italy = Ferrari, Liverani
Ireland = Clinton Morrison (coincidentally, one of his parents is Trini), Phill Babb...they had loads
Cant name none from Greece or Mexico, sorry.
And there are definitely way more than blacks in Germany than Argentina..dont know d stats, but I saw plenty blacks there! :)
Naturalized but I suppose he'll do.
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the countries that never had black representation on their national team. ARGENTINA, SPAIN, MEXICO, ITALY, GREECE. IRELAND. NOT SURE BOUT SCOTLAND, WALES. just to name ah few. i excluded eastern europe BC they never had ah much interaction with black folk, there was little to no blacks living in the eastern block.
Spain- Marco Senna
Mexico- Giovanni Dos Santos (half afro-Brazilian, half Mexican)
Italy- Marco Balotelli (soon to be capped for the full national squad, capped for the U-21 team)
Greece- not sure, but I seem to recall a black player as well
Ireland- Chris Houghton (Spurs), Paul McGrath (Man U.) among others
Scotland and Wales- not too sure, but I believe I've seen black players for both already, particularly Wales.
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I think the issue has less to do with % of populations and more to do with racism.
May be in Argentina young black kids are not given apportunities to play at top clubs and that is why very few make it through.
The most obvious reason is Racism!
I am no argentina fan but I do think they keep blacks out of their national team because they're racist. Argentina has black brazilians, colombians, and even 2 Haitians in their national leagues.
In a country where you can go days or even months without seeing a black face, it's quite possible that they have not yet produced a good black player.
Most caribbean countries rarely have white players in their teams and I suspect it's mostly because most Caribbean whites are more interested in sports like tennis, golf, equestrian than football.
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As for Paraguay and Chile, I can't recall any. But perhaps Bake n Shark can enlighten us.
What... you don't think Chilavert looks a little dark?
;D
Nah fellas! In this current World Cup qualifying series Chile running a black player ... Jean Beausejour ... had a good showing versus Bolivia ... versus Brazil he came on as a sub and altered the riddim of the game, but well Brazil was ticking and the score was already 2 zip when he came on ... game finished 3 love. Dahis about a week and a half ago. He duss fly a quasi-dread.
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RYAN , you talking bout bleached out half breed fellas like david trezeget, i talking bout men like ronaldino , zee roberto, pele and so forth.
you talk about germany having more black ppl than argentina, how ironic is that when argentina is right next to the country that have the most black ppl out side of africa.
I cud c where u coming from, and I not tryin 2say that Argentina isnt racist...I go leave dat for yall to debate cuz I never been dere and I dont know. But at d end of d day, if d black people not there (for whatever reason), they not there. And so they cant represent d country in football. Statistically it seems reasonable that no black people have repped Argentina (and having said that, we all jus guessing anyway, cuz we all jus going by what we see on TV in the last 30 years...for all we know dey cud have had 1 or 2 black fellas gettin a lil sweat back in d 50s or 60s....).
As for Trezeguet not making d grade... being a bleach out half breed myself, I go hadda admit defeat ;D :beermug:
One benefit of this forum is educational exchange. One downside to the history of transhipment of human cargo is that the acquisition of European names does not readily allow us to distinguish people of African descent by name.
Investigate the names Isabelino Gradin and Juan Delgado. There would be no Pele without them. And these fellas date back decades before the 50s and 60s. Even in the interval there are other black ballers that light up de place in South America. It's a history that's out there partner. Serious thing.
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No one had a slave population like Brazil... not even the US, so let's leave Brazil out of it. Argentina's slave population compared favorably with some of her other neighbors though, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay... so yes, it was more than just cattle ranching on the Pampas.
There are some other reasons that were touched upon relating to why there aren't that many 'blacks' in Argentina today... and it isn't because they were never brought there. Your other point is well-noted though (about not witnessing too many while there), so thanks for chiming in :beermug:
I never said that blacks were never brought there. Just that much fewer were brought there compared to a plantation colony like Brazil. One of the articles that you linked states that African slaves were brought there to work as primarily as domestic servants. But a plantation-based economy would require far greater numbers of slaves.
And I mentioned Brazil because the very first post in this thread asked:
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity?
This poster fails to recognize that Brazil and Argentina developed much differently from each other in terms of agriculture and economics.
As far as Argentina's neighbors are concerned, you don't see too many blacks playing for Chile, Paraguay and Bolivia either, do you? Uruguay is a different story, since their substantial amount of black players is still not indicative of how low of a percentage they make up in the society as a whole.
Re your comment in bold ... did you miss the photographic evidence? Only Brazil and Peru? Look, the larger point is that blacks are/were present all across the continent. Despite the various historicities, Argentina's experience as it exists today is in a separate box.
Excellent post JahG.
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Juan Sebastian Veron, ok, not a full breed (whatever that means), but definitely black
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IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?
If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?
For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine)
In all this discussion ah clean forget ah lil exchange ah had with Bakes during de Euro about a black Argentinian player:
http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=37123.msg447551#msg447551
In his autobiography, referring to his debut for Boca, Maradona states:
El Negro Baley, the Talleres goalkeeper, fouled me and gave away a penalty. I took it and scored. Then another. I remember both those goals with enormous warmth; they were my first for Boca and contributed to us beating Talleres 4-1.
(for anybody who into that kinda thing, the debut date was Sunday February 22, 1981)
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O...and....David Trezeguet. Born in France to Argentine parents. Family moved back there and he grew up in Argentina, native Spanish speaker. Started his professional football career in Argentina. Only moved to France when PSG invited him. He would certainly have been called up to play for Argentina had he not chosen France. So there's your sample of one ;D
I have seen both of Trezeguet's parents and neither one of them is black.
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Nah fellas! In this current World Cup qualifying series Chile running a black player ... Jean Beausejour ... had a good showing versus Bolivia ... versus Brazil he came on as a sub and altered the riddim of the game, but well Brazil was ticking and the score was already 2 zip when he came on ... game finished 3 love. Dahis about a week and a half ago. He duss fly a quasi-dread.
Beausejour has a Haitian father.
He is also an exception, as Chile's black population is not even 1%.
Re your comment in bold ... did you miss the photographic evidence? Only Brazil and Peru? Look, the larger point is that blacks are/were present all across the continent. Despite the various historicities, Argentina's experience as it exists today is in a separate box.
You need to go back and re-read my post.
That comment is not mine. I was quoting the question posed by nigelfabien in the very first post of this thread.
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one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet
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I've read thru most of this an shake my head with wonder.
Argentina may be a stand alone case but in the world of international sport now, race cannot compare with nations need to achieve on the international stage. Check countries that normally hold tight to their cultures and the way they jump to nationalise players.
Japan
Qatar
Russia
Germany
Turkey
and the list goes on, what I,m saying is that I think for most countries if you're good enough to play for the national team , you will be picked even if yuh green and talk like weary.
Hardest would be a star and national hero in Ragististan if he could get ah visa
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I've read thru most of this an shake my head with wonder.
Argentina may be a stand alone case but in the world of international sport now, race cannot compare with nations need to achieve on the international stage. Check countries that normally hold tight to their cultures and the way they jump to nationalise players.
Japan
Qatar
Russia
Germany
Turkey
and the list goes on, what I,m saying is that I think for most countries if you're good enough to play for the national team , you will be picked even if yuh green and talk like weary.
Hardest would be a star and national hero in Ragististan if he could get ah visa
If you say that for most they would be willing to overlook race... that concedes in the very least that for some they won't be so color-blind, no? If among that 'some' is Argentina (as you seem to concede)...why then are you left shaking your head?
I think we need only point to the experienced of black footballers in England... and Spain for that matter, as reminders as to the challenges faced by black footballers when it comes to breaking thru the color barrier.
I won't even bother bring up the internal angst caused in France by the make up of the 1998 World Cup team... to show that race, and it's place in dictating who is seen as 'representative' of a country's ideal/identity, remains very much a reality today.
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Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look @ the stats.
how many black countries never experienced colonialism ? Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.
how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.
if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade. that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.
it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.
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Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look 2 the stats.
how many black countries never experienced colonialism ? Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.
how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.
if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade. that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.
it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.
JC and Bakes , I well know racism is alive and well and in some cases getting stronger , for instance I will never go to Russia again if I coud avoid it.
The point I'm making is that in FOOTBALL most countrys desire for success is colorless
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"Most caribbean countries rarely have white players in their teams and I suspect it's mostly because most Caribbean whites are more interested in sports like tennis, golf, equestrian than football."
saddis you win with that one
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"Most caribbean countries rarely have white players in their teams and I suspect it's mostly because most Caribbean whites are more interested in sports like tennis, golf, equestrian than football."
saddis you win with that one
Bad wknd 4 u oli...britain get relegated in d davis cup AND europe get blowout in d ryder cup...hard luck dey
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yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping :rotfl:
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day ;)
check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day ;)
check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.
dat would be de redman, white and black team, ent ;D
:-[
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day ;)
check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.
:applause: :applause:
Man talking about Nigeria & T&T doing well. Yes we have $$$$ but are we doing well? How is that benefitting the peoples. Look at the infrastructure, education, medical, social assistance for elderly, safety of citizens. Look at the level of corruption, the standard of living of ministers etc.
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Nah fellas! In this current World Cup qualifying series Chile running a black player ... Jean Beausejour ... had a good showing versus Bolivia ... versus Brazil he came on as a sub and altered the riddim of the game, but well Brazil was ticking and the score was already 2 zip when he came on ... game finished 3 love. Dahis about a week and a half ago. He duss fly a quasi-dread.
Beausejour has a Haitian father.
He is also an exception, as Chile's black population is not even 1%.
Re your comment in bold ... did you miss the photographic evidence? Only Brazil and Peru? Look, the larger point is that blacks are/were present all across the continent. Despite the various historicities, Argentina's experience as it exists today is in a separate box.
You need to go back and re-read my post.
That comment is not mine. I was quoting the question posed by nigelfabien in the very first post of this thread.
Yes Zeppo. Absolutely, I stand corrected. I really had puzzled on how you could have missed the photos. :) Makes perfect sense now.
Yeah, I "taunted" Toussaint recently about Beausejour, although he's in the 'right' place. Chilean citizen by birth and he's on the field. Fairly consistent with Chile's contemporary approach to the game. Up next, perhaps Daud Gazale.
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yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping :rotfl:
Good shit. :applause:
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Some men really doh overstand how the world run nah boss. racism is alive and well in the world we live in, just look 2 the stats.
how many black countries never experienced colonialism ? Ethiopia was the only one, and they had to fight tooth and nail to hold on to their Independence.
how many black governed counties doing well economically, with the exception of oil rich nations like T&T and nigeria, only britians play ground countries like barbados , Bahamas, bermuda, cayman islands, other than that non!!! then ask your self why.
if yuh want to take it up ah notch, then get yuh hand on ah documentary called life and debt by Jamaica kinkade. that documentary hopefully will help those in denial what is racism how it is implemented and who it affects the most.
it will also help them to understand that it's not always personal, but also a socio economic power play to trump black ecconomies and keep from thriving.
JC and Bakes , I well know racism is alive and well and in some cases getting stronger , for instance I will never go to Russia again if I coud avoid it.
The point I'm making is that in FOOTBALL most countrys desire for success is colorless[/b]
Fair observation. Nevertheless, the statement made, and the information imparted to the world, when a nation fields a team contrary to perception, is an immense one.
Wicked documentary that JC. Saw it on debut back in the day with a Q & A session following. Very gripping. Jamaica Kincaid is the narrator. The film is by Stephanie Black. Mandatory viewing bredrin.
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Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
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yeah but I got my mind off it by going show jumping :rotfl:
who did the jumping, you or the horse? :devil:
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Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
Doh study it breds...de bickering start before you and will continue long after you and me gone
anytime it have racial ting in any post no matter how re-hashed or obvious the topic ..it go always have online WAR! :devil:
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
Mexico did have a black player on their team a few years ago, Mervin Brown. The population of Black Mexicans is very small though.
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Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
is race yuh talking bout. must get a lil testy. Plus..yuh can't always truly get your points across on a message board. so real pressure. but i find fellas was behavin' deyself this rounds. truss meh..this was civillized :)
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Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.
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one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet
Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses
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one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet
Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses
but yuh forget de paper ;D
respeck boss
Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.
been there. going back in Nov.
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day ;)
check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.
:applause: :applause:
Man talking about Nigeria & T&T doing well. Yes we have $$$$ but are we doing well? How is that benefitting the peoples. Look at the infrastructure, education, medical, social assistance for elderly, safety of citizens. Look at the level of corruption, the standard of living of ministers etc.
Breds yuh talking out of context. my point was nigeria and trinidad have ah stable economy, and they are receiving revenue from their natural resources, what they do with it is contrary to the topic.
misappropriation of funds and inadequate infrastructure has nothing to do with out side interference, that's for another discussion, if our administrators (politicians) are guilty of funds mismanagement then that's on us.
point is , there are countries who have resources up the ying yang but can't exploit them BC of stipulations that was put on them by the IMF (world bank) there's no way on earth except by some miracle they could repay the IMF especially with the ridiculous amount of interest incured on the loan( life long debt) and they don't have the technology or the funds to unearth and refine their resources.
so there's no way to compete on the world market, end result !! inflation, extreme poverty, crime, high incident of diseases (std) corruption of all sorts! and with no viable income ? a debt that is unpayable (life long debt!). example: haiti , guyana, jamaica, mexico.
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one observation:
- i would differentiate between black and mixed. plenty who getting called black have just as much white in them, if not more. Sorry, but men like Diogo from Uruguay treated differently than fellas like Zalayeta. Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo etc...not considered black in Brazil. Nowhere on planet earth is Juan Sebastian Veron black...and definitely not David Trezeguet
Here's a paper/abstract on race in post colonial Argentina (can't comment on the credibility of the author, just sharing info.) through football lenses
but yuh forget de paper ;D
respeck boss
Wow!!!! Well my one initial post was meant to provoke constructive thought and to enlighten, as the reading did for me. I never meant to start any bickering on the site, so I do apologize for the unfortunate outcome that has been apparent in some of the responses. :-[
boss, dis normal....a thread on racism in Argentina does start up at least once a month. one day one of us might even visit de place.
been there. going back in Nov.
;D hard luck dey, here it is...http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15419385 (abstract only)
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been there. going back in Nov.
Yuh shudda say dat long time, differentiate yuhself from d wikipedia crowd :D :beermug:
edit: oh yeah, you did :)
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
I'm sorry, but this is rank nonsense.
I am sure that I won't know what it's like living in a Communist country until I actually move to Cuba, Russia or China. That said, I don't have to wait until that magical moment in order for me to appreciate what life must be like... not when news abound on the conditions there. If you read one or two sources then you take the information with a grain of salt. If you keep encountering the same information from a disparate number of sources then that militates in favor of credibility.
I don't have to "know many Argentines" for that perspective to be validated because at the end of the day the "many" Argentines I know may themselves be ignorant of the very conditions we are here debating. I'm sure if you ask many whites here in America they'll tell you that racial discrimination ended sometime back in the 60's with the advent of Civil Rights. In fact, take a look at this graphic that Tallman posted in the General Discussion forum:
(http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/elections/ap_poll_race_obama.jpg)
I post this to show that many who belong to the majority have skewed perspectives as to what is going on with minority populations. I don't know what your source is for saying that most are only "ignorant and hypothesizing" but absent the data to support such a conclusion...I imagine that you'd similarly have to count yourself among their number.
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
lewwe study racism in T&T instead and stop focusing on other countries we know little about, other than what we read or experience when a group of 5 Argentines watch yuh funny one day ;)
check it..tell me ah lie. man calling one setta red man, 'black' here cuz it suit dem as they trying to make a point. but truss meh...if T&T pick a national side where every man jack look like Carlos...dem same men go be wondering what happen to all de black footballers and crying racism. wuss yet if they all look like Birchall. we have our own glass house..lewwe doh pelt stones.
Not sure about that first part. I agree that people could be quick to make inaccurate generalizations based on a perception or on a pervading perspective that is communicated through the mainstream. In the case of Argentina, the mainstream view is that the country has a race problem that at one point (or maybe still) manifested itself at the institutional level- add to that, the fact that blacks/non whites are a very small minority, many Argentines have an ignorant view of blacks (ignorant meaning not knowing, as opposed to the colloquial meaning- stubborn)...My guess is that this ignorance often comes in the form of racial prejudice. The part that I underlined was told to me by an Argentine himself...and yuh know him :D
I've met quite a few Argentines along the way but I can't claim to know many (not sure what constitutes many)... All whom I've met appear to be average open minded, non-racist, educated people...but I don't know how representative that is of the general public. I'm also not sure how good an impression I'd get of Argentina by visiting Buenos Aires for 10 days with a group of non Argie friends...Point is you're correct in implying that someone who has lived there would probably have a more authoritative view on the situation...but that could also be incorrect... For instance, there are probably non-Trinis who never set foot on the island for more than 2 weeks know more about certain Trinidad issues than I do....through indepth study for e.g. Point is, everyone has their point of reference and unless this is your field of study or expertise, all the perspectives thrown out here are muddied by a certain level of ignorance....and as we well know, on this hub of ole talk, opinion, regardless of how ignorant it is... is as good as fact ;D
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I find the various directions this thread has taken to be sufficient information in itself. And, I find the discourse has been a fairly well-informed discussion. When we have become mired in some matters, generally it has been upon the introduction of off topic matters.
As Dutty suggests, no matter how many times an Argentine tangent is touched, some fire is to be expected and yet, the truth is we are - in my view - among a small community capable of having a 'free and frank' and fairly responsible discussion about race.
At least one amongst us seems to be labouring under the impression that Trinbagonians travel exclusively under a compass driven by the draw of familiar metropoles. That's an unfortunate assumption and proposition. There is an experiential body of knowledge on the forum in existence, regardless of whether it is understated or not advertised. I have full confidence that such awareness influences the perspectives advanced. Otherwise, on evidence presented, we should lock the thread and let Filho expound on the topic solely ... that is, perhaps, until other posters step forward to be vetted through fuller disclosure directed towards London.
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time for men who doh live in Argentina and doh know many Argentines to stop talking this talk. we going in circles and most here ignorant and hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as fact.
I'm sorry, but this is rank nonsense.
I am sure that I won't know what it's like living in a Communist country until I actually move to Cuba, Russia or China. That said, I don't have to wait until that magical moment in order for me to appreciate what life must be like... not when news abound on the conditions there. If you read one or two sources then you take the information with a grain of salt. If you keep encountering the same information from a disparate number of sources then that militates in favor of credibility.
I don't have to "know many Argentines" for that perspective to be validated because at the end of the day the "many" Argentines I know may themselves be ignorant of the very conditions we are here debating. I'm sure if you ask many whites here in America they'll tell you that racial discrimination ended sometime back in the 60's with the advent of Civil Rights. In fact, take a look at this graphic that Tallman posted in the General Discussion forum:
I post this to show that many who belong to the majority have skewed perspectives as to what is going on with minority populations. I don't know what your source is for saying that most are only "ignorant and hypothesizing" but absent the data to support such a conclusion...I imagine that you'd similarly have to count yourself among their number.
Bakes..Kicker. Points well taken. The post is not well written, but that can happen when you are in a rush to make a point..as I am now. Anyway..you're taking it a bit literally. I think the topic is full of good information and excellent discussion. What is lacking from the discussion are real-life experiences. Otherwise, I think after while, nothing of real value is added. I am not saying to stop talkng the talk in its entirety, but I meant we should stop at this point as i thought we were starting to beat a dead horse. Plus, as you can see I had an ulterior motive. I was interested to see what people's response would be to the questions I asked and see if there were actually parrallels that can be drawn between T&T and Argentina. My hypothesis...maybe we are not all so different as we'd like to think. Maybe we are. I was curious. And as for most people being ignorant and passing off opinion as fact...i stand by that as it pertains to the subdiscussion as to the actual effect of racism on black footballers' opportunities in Argentina today.
Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself. On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.
Anyway..I've read my post and the intro is a bit of a wild voop. hard luck. not expecting people to agree anymore with my clarification (i'd actually be disappointed if they did)..but it's a lot closer to what i meant
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Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."
Take a read
http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html
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...Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself.
On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.
Oh gorm Filho yuh go make me explain ;D? Despite de honourable mention, that was not directed at you. Ah just call yuh name outta convenience b/c Ryan seems to be in receipt of messages solely stamped with your authority. It was a friendly volley buh yuh throw yuhself right in de mix as a casualty. Hol' a lash fuh dat. :whip: :whip:
Yes, phenotypically Baley is a man of African descent. The usage in this instance is not purely akin to the colloquial usage you allude to.
With respect to 'keepers, I suspect you're referring to one of the most famous examples and stereotypes related to Brazilian football history. I don't have any evidence suggesting that the comparison is universally valid.
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Bakes..Kicker. Points well taken. The post is not well written, but that can happen when you are in a rush to make a point..as I am now. Anyway..you're taking it a bit literally. I think the topic is full of good information and excellent discussion. What is lacking from the discussion are real-life experiences. Otherwise, I think after while, nothing of real value is added. I am not saying to stop talkng the talk in its entirety, but I meant we should stop at this point as i thought we were starting to beat a dead horse. Plus, as you can see I had an ulterior motive. I was interested to see what people's response would be to the questions I asked and see if there were actually parrallels that can be drawn between T&T and Argentina. My hypothesis...maybe we are not all so different as we'd like to think. Maybe we are. I was curious. And as for most people being ignorant and passing off opinion as fact...i stand by that as it pertains to the subdiscussion as to the actual effect of racism on black footballers' opportunities in Argentina today.
Another example of why I usually try harder to temper my disagreements when it comes to you (whenever we do disagree)... very fair very sensible post. :beermug:
You make good points in saying that until fresh (and perhaps more authentic perspectives come in we're talking in circles. I understand your clarification and agree with most of it. In fact your posts, and Kicker's and a couple others have made me realize that whether intentional or not I was painting all Argentinians with one broad brush...which is not only unfair, but unsound logic. My issue is with what I perceive as the systematic attempt by successive Argentinian governments, and with (again, what I perceive as) Argentine society's deliberate attempt to whitewash the populace, in this case at the detriment of Afro-Argentines. It is in part due to this perspective that I think it fair to conclude that given the concentrated efforts to sweep them under the rug, it isn't too far a leap to conclude that there may well have been/be efforts to similarly keep them from such high-profile situations as playing for the national team.
The error I make is in presenting my opinion as though all of Argentina is complicit in this, when in fact I forget that many Argentines themselves have suffered under similar oppression at the hands of their governments, and many are simply too otherwise pre-occupied to worry about what's going on with Afro-Argentinos, or to harbor ill will towards them. Similar to the US, given it's past history of pervasive racism... there are many wonderful people that I've had the privilege of knowing here, of different races and different walks in life.
Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."
Take a read
http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html
Big post Observer... read it with relish from beginning to end. Much of what was described in the first half is a neat synopsis of stuff I've read from other sources over the years... but the second part was all new to me and I really appreciate the candor with which the researchers discussed their experiences with the poll.
One thing I wasn't in total agreement was this
BUENOS AIRES -- Their disappearance is one of Argentina's most enduring mysteries. In 1810, black residents accounted for about 30 percent of the population of Buenos Aires. By 1887, however, their numbers had plummeted to 1.8 percent
They later on seemed to indicate that the population drop can be attributed to miscegenation, but still... 1810-1887 is only 77 yrs, or one generation. I don't know how in the world race-mixing can account for such a precipitous drop in the population in just one generation.
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...Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself.
On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.
Oh gorm Filho yuh go make me explain ;D? Despite de honourable mention, that was not directed at you. Ah just call yuh name outta convenience b/c Ryan seems to be in receipt of messages solely stamped with your authority. It was a friendly volley buh yuh throw yuhself right in de mix as a casualty. Hol' a lash fuh dat. :whip: :whip:
Yes, phenotypically Baley is a man of African descent. The usage in this instance is not purely akin to the colloquial usage you allude to.
With respect to 'keepers, I suspect you're referring to one of the most famous examples and stereotypes related to Brazilian football history. I don't have any evidence suggesting that the comparison is universally valid.
thanks for the info
hear nah...i find two pistle was excessive. one was enough :beermug:
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Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."
Take a read
http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html
Big post Observer... read it with relish from beginning to end. Much of what was described in the first half is a neat synopsis of stuff I've read from other sources over the years... but the second part was all new to me and I really appreciate the candor with which the researchers discussed their experiences with the poll.
One thing I wasn't in total agreement was this
BUENOS AIRES -- Their disappearance is one of Argentina's most enduring mysteries. In 1810, black residents accounted for about 30 percent of the population of Buenos Aires. By 1887, however, their numbers had plummeted to 1.8 percent
They later on seemed to indicate that the population drop can be attributed to miscegenation, but still... 1810-1887 is only 77 yrs, or one generation. I don't know how in the world race-mixing can account for such a precipitous drop in the population in just one generation.
Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.
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Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.
To be honest with you I not even sure how dey does count 'generation'... I usually think of it in terms of the average life span for the respective societies/populations.
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Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.
To be honest with you I not even sure how dey does count 'generation'... I usually think of it in terms of the average life span for the respective societies/populations.
I might be wrong, but I always assume it to be a 40-year period...
Big Up!
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Bake n Shark all I could say is it must have been one hell of an orgy.
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Ah gereration is most likely 20 yrs. don't qoute me though. positive.
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A generation is is just how long it takes from the time yuh born til the time yuh makin babies.
It real vague, but it's shorter than a lifetime.
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I might be wrong, but I always assume it to be a 40-year period...
Big Up!
You, Asylum and Peong near if not on de mark... ah finally Google it, lol
"The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring."
Observer... doh fack mih up :rotfl:
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Bake n Shark all I could say is it must have been one hell of an orgy.
;D
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(from an article published in Argentina this week on Haitian defender Judelin Aveska)
En el primer tiempo casi convierte un gol de cabeza. Ahí fue cuando los simpatizantes leprosos, por su sacrificio, lo ovacionaron. “Negroooo, Negrooooo...”, le gritaron.
after he almost scored a header in the first half, the supporters of his club Lepra gave him a round of applause for his courage chanting "negroooo, Negroooo!"
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I was reading everyone post and it hit meh..... where is all the chinese and Indian football players...you mean to tell me there is none that is very good to make the national team at all level is there bias in the selection process... I think so...hmmmm... I don't think we are different then any other country in south america....look how long its been and i talking about 1908 to now that i know ah indian or chinese Trinibagoian making the national team ...i don't know for the past national team...oh yea..Manny Ramjohn... ah never see him play but he look indian... coolie who also indian was very good in my book...but never get call for the national at any level...i could be wrong and i hope iam but That have to change and i hope TTFF seeing that and doing something to correct it
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead
his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.
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his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like.
Father & Son
(http://diariofutbol.blox.pl/resource/jr_js_veron.jpg)
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead
his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.
Well Filho his father look full spanish to me....he could be the brown type...Juan could argu he as no black or half of black in him
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead
his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.
Well Filho his father look full spanish to me....he could be the brown type...Juan could argu he as no black or half of black in him
The article I posted before claims he's black, his mother doesn't look black either, but he could be a throw back ;D
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future
*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to
grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....
yea..lol...well ah guess since he here in the state..unless you talking about Trini...he will consider himself black...but went he in Argentina...ah don't think so...
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Not the same... but kinda related, I just saw a visitcolombia.com ad here on TV and I was pleasantly surprised by the numbers of Afro-colombians who were featured in the tourism spot. They really seemed intent on showcasing their diversity and the overall friendliness of the people.
Shame that violence remains such a potent risk there... definitely wouldn't mind visiting one day.
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Bear in mind that in Northern Colmbia near the Caribberan sea and on the Pacific coast - both places where many tourists go, there is a higher concentration of Africans than say Bogota, where you see almost none.
VB
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....
Najee...that is unfortunately true throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. From my experience (don't hold me to it as fact), North Americans and Europeans are more likely to claim to be black even when they are clearly mixed, sometimes having stronger European features than African ones. That said..I wouldn't make any assumptions about JSV. You never know. He may be or may have been proud of his black heritage if he had any. Remember, some of the research about blacks in Argentina is being provided by afro-Argentines who don't look visibly black. In the polls, there were those who answered truthfully about their heritage and I once read an article that was posted right on here about white Argentines who kept photos of ancestors, some of whom were visibly of African origin.
But I understand how someone like Veron having some African ancestry would seem very cool since afro-Argentines have no visibility in Argentina and this guy is a national icon. But when you think about it, Veron being considered black is like the millions of black people who have some European ancestry that is not visible in their features being considered white.
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I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?
is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead
I think it is most likely a combination of European (Spanish) and Indian blood.
I also remember when he played in Argentina with Boca Jrs before going to Europe. Back then he didn't have a goatee and his head wasn't shaved completely bald, and I recall that his hair was straight and not kinky.
Here is a photo from those days, although it's rather hard to see from this one:
(http://muyboca.com.ar/wp-content/files/2006/05/f022bh02.jpg)
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future
*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...
and what makes you think whites, indians and chinese dont play football in trinidad? There are large numbers that do play football throughout the country, its a matter of selection and sterotype that keeps many off national teams and club football.
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future
*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...
and what makes you think whites, indians and chinese dont play football in trinidad? There are large numbers that do play football throughout the country, its a matter of selection and sterotype that keeps many off national teams and club football.
I didn't think that...i know ah few that play and very good ....but like you said ...they not getting the opportunity and that have to change.... yeah talking about 1908 to now
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I want to categorically disagree with On de Block and Najee and Sando Prince is spot on in his statement. It's so easy to use the discrimination cop out. I refer to my earlier post in this thread. If more indians or chinese or whoever actually dedicated the time and effort to pursue football as a career you would see more 'diversity' in professional and national teams. At every level of organised football (down to minor league) in T&T you will find that overwhelming majority of players are black. I don't think that fact means there is discrimination in football.
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Maria Lamadrid, an Afro-Argentine, vividly recalls the day when her country's immigration authorities prevented her from boarding a plane for Panama, demanding she present them with a "real passport."
this is her i think
(http://www.con-versiones.com/Junio/lamadrid.jpg)
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
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Maria Lamadrid, an Afro-Argentine, vividly recalls the day when her country's immigration authorities prevented her from boarding a plane for Panama, demanding she present them with a "real passport."
this is her i think
(http://www.con-versiones.com/Junio/lamadrid.jpg)
She look like Maturana....
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
we should be careful not to make wildly ignorant statements.
lots of jews also escaped to Argentina and not all the Germans and Italians who moved there were Nazis or Fascists. Natural blondes are pretty rare and are considered exotic in Argentina. They just seem to have more blonds than their South American neighbors
Lots of Germans moved to Brazil and other parts of South America too. Some southern cities in Brazil you are just as likely to hear German as you are to hear Poruguese. Brazil's women's team had a keeper called Maravilhosa who said she didn't learn POrtuguese until she went to school. Up to that point she thought everyone in Brazil spoke German. There are so many Germans in Brazil that the word commonly used to describe 'blonde' is 'Alemao' or German. That's how the footballer of the 80s got his knickname..from his blond hair. Taffarel and Dunga have gone on record speakign of their pride in their German roots. Doh mean their parents or grandparents were Nazis..but the point is..Italians and Germans of all types moved all over SA.
Much of the criticism of Argentina is just...but some things said kinda off the charts
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I want to categorically disagree with On de Block and Najee and Sando Prince is spot on in his statement. It's so easy to use the discrimination cop out. I refer to my earlier post in this thread. If more indians or chinese or whoever actually dedicated the time and effort to pursue football as a career you would see more 'diversity' in professional and national teams. At every level of organised football (down to minor league) in T&T you will find that overwhelming majority of players are black. I don't think that fact means there is discrimination in football.
Jah Gol,
your point is not incorrect. However, the reality is that there is (an anti black) black discrimination. It DOES exist. I have spoken to players who experienced this at national youth and senior level, from both Coaches and fellow players.
JG, I am not saying your point is invalid. However, if like me you had met palyers who experienced this, you might change your tune. It also might be a contributing factor as to why so many of them make the books rather than the ball a priority.
VB
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I want to categorically disagree with On de Block and Najee and Sando Prince is spot on in his statement. It's so easy to use the discrimination cop out. I refer to my earlier post in this thread. If more indians or chinese or whoever actually dedicated the time and effort to pursue football as a career you would see more 'diversity' in professional and national teams. At every level of organised football (down to minor league) in T&T you will find that overwhelming majority of players are black. I don't think that fact means there is discrimination in football.
Jah Gol,
your point is not incorrect. However, the reality is that there is (an anti black) black discrimination. It DOES exist. I have spoken to players who experienced this at national youth and senior level, from both Coaches and fellow players.
JG, I am not saying your point is invalid. However, if like me you had met palyers who experienced this, you might change your tune. It also might be a contributing factor as to why so many of them make the books rather than the ball a priority.
VB
the same happened to talented white players on our youth teams, not so much now. pretty much after the 70's before it wasn't an issue, my grandfather played for club and country in the 50's and the team was mixed, but i have heard from players back in the 80's who got kicked up in national training and told by others players they not wanted, so its usually where there is a minority that gets the "abuse" or "omission"
plus isn't dwarika "dougla"? what about brent rahim? bobby sookram?
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
we should be careful not to make wildly ignorant statements.
lots of jews also escaped to Argentina and not all the Germans and Italians who moved there were Nazis or Fascists. Natural blondes are pretty rare and are considered exotic in Argentina. They just seem to have more blonds than their South American neighbors
Lots of Germans moved to Brazil and other parts of South America too. Some southern cities in Brazil you are just as likely to hear German as you are to hear Poruguese. Brazil's women's team had a keeper called Maravilhosa who said she didn't learn POrtuguese until she went to school. Up to that point she thought everyone in Brazil spoke German. There are so many Germans in Brazil that the word commonly used to describe 'blonde' is 'Alemao' or German. That's how the footballer of the 80s got his knickname..from his blond hair. Taffarel and Dunga have gone on record speakign of their pride in their German roots. Doh mean their parents or grandparents were Nazis..but the point is..Italians and Germans of all types moved all over SA.
Much of the criticism of Argentina is just...but some things said kinda off the charts
flame starter, i should have quoted it in coloquial accent, aka shit talk. so do us a favor go research every argentine team from present to conception and verify ethnic authenticity then you can pontificate ok
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I want to categorically disagree with On de Block and Najee and Sando Prince is spot on in his statement. It's so easy to use the discrimination cop out. I refer to my earlier post in this thread. If more indians or chinese or whoever actually dedicated the time and effort to pursue football as a career you would see more 'diversity' in professional and national teams. At every level of organised football (down to minor league) in T&T you will find that overwhelming majority of players are black. I don't think that fact means there is discrimination in football.
Jah Gol,
your point is not incorrect. However, the reality is that there is (an anti black) black discrimination. It DOES exist. I have spoken to players who experienced this at national youth and senior level, from both Coaches and fellow players.
JG, I am not saying your point is invalid. However, if like me you had met palyers who experienced this, you might change your tune. It also might be a contributing factor as to why so many of them make the books rather than the ball a priority.
VB
the same happened to talented white players on our youth teams, not so much now. pretty much after the 70's before it wasn't an issue, my grandfather played for club and country in the 50's and the team was mixed, but i have heard from players back in the 80's who got kicked up in national training and told by others players they not wanted, so its usually where there is a minority that gets the "abuse" or "omission"
plus isn't dwarika "dougla"? what about brent rahim? bobby sookram?
Stunner, I don't know what your point really is. Yes there is discrimination, but the fact that a few 'doglahs' and Indians make the team, does not mitigate the fact.
The WI cricket team played blacks from the 1920s onwards but there was shameless racism probably until the 60s. So the fact that there were blacks there does not mitigate this. Likewise the the England football team of the 70s and 80s.
VB
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
we should be careful not to make wildly ignorant statements.
lots of jews also escaped to Argentina and not all the Germans and Italians who moved there were Nazis or Fascists. Natural blondes are pretty rare and are considered exotic in Argentina. They just seem to have more blonds than their South American neighbors
Lots of Germans moved to Brazil and other parts of South America too. Some southern cities in Brazil you are just as likely to hear German as you are to hear Poruguese. Brazil's women's team had a keeper called Maravilhosa who said she didn't learn POrtuguese until she went to school. Up to that point she thought everyone in Brazil spoke German. There are so many Germans in Brazil that the word commonly used to describe 'blonde' is 'Alemao' or German. That's how the footballer of the 80s got his knickname..from his blond hair. Taffarel and Dunga have gone on record speakign of their pride in their German roots. Doh mean their parents or grandparents were Nazis..but the point is..Italians and Germans of all types moved all over SA.
Much of the criticism of Argentina is just...but some things said kinda off the charts
Yep ... pretty much. Alemaos abound.
RE: the Nazi thing ... Who knows? Maybe it means the parents or grandparents were sympathisers :devil: ... Ah kicksing of course, but of course dahis more than a remote reality. Nevertheless, a lot of German migration to South America occurred BEFORE Hitler even surfaced ... b/c much took place before 1900 ... not to mention that German-speaking Jews were a component of the move to Argentina and other nations on the continent.
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flame starter, i should have quoted it in coloquial accent, aka shit talk. so do us a favor go research every argentine team from present to conception and verify ethnic authenticity then you can pontificate ok
Maybe you should quote this in the vernacular and call it "shit talk" as well. Don't undo the positive contributions you've made to the thread thus far with nonsense statements like this. Filho's point is well worth noting.
Separately, I agree with your earlier post about the experience of the white players. I can't speak from experience and I know of none who've experienced it, but from kicking ball with talented 'syrian' and 'Trini white' bredrins I can say that the lack of visibility on the national team certainly raises the spectre of discrimination. Hopefully yutes like Justin Fogo can help change that.
Vb I also agree with your post regarding the experiences of the men you said you spoke with... no one can deny the hand of discrimination. Had you said that from the beginning then I suspect we never would have had any disagreement. Racism is a horse of an entirely different color... no pun intended.
Filho... good post pardna, I know the Spanish word for German is 'Aleman'...but never made the connection to the Portuguese 'Alemao'... now I understand why the 80s footballer got his moniker.
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Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black
I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future
*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...
and what makes you think whites, indians and chinese dont play football in trinidad? There are large numbers that do play football throughout the country, its a matter of selection and sterotype that keeps many off national teams and club football.
Now since you called me out, I want you to quote or even highlight where i said these races DONT play football in trinidad...my response was based on the issue that we do not currently have a significant number of players with these races in T&T to choose from..and i give my opinion on why I think we currenty have this issue
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
we should be careful not to make wildly ignorant statements.
lots of jews also escaped to Argentina and not all the Germans and Italians who moved there were Nazis or Fascists. Natural blondes are pretty rare and are considered exotic in Argentina. They just seem to have more blonds than their South American neighbors
Lots of Germans moved to Brazil and other parts of South America too. Some southern cities in Brazil you are just as likely to hear German as you are to hear Poruguese. Brazil's women's team had a keeper called Maravilhosa who said she didn't learn POrtuguese until she went to school. Up to that point she thought everyone in Brazil spoke German. There are so many Germans in Brazil that the word commonly used to describe 'blonde' is 'Alemao' or German. That's how the footballer of the 80s got his knickname..from his blond hair. Taffarel and Dunga have gone on record speakign of their pride in their German roots. Doh mean their parents or grandparents were Nazis..but the point is..Italians and Germans of all types moved all over SA.
Much of the criticism of Argentina is just...but some things said kinda off the charts
flame starter, i should have quoted it in coloquial accent, aka shit talk. so do us a favor go research every argentine team from present to conception and verify ethnic authenticity then you can pontificate ok
where did I challenge anyone's ideas about the ethnic composition of the Argentines in that post? Steeups. i was mainly challenging the idea that Argentina had some kinda monopoly in SA on German and Italian migration circa WWII. And that racism in Argentina is down to that migration. That was just an ignorant post and you happened to agree. I know you doh feel Argentina have more blondes than Sweden hoss..but the point you were making is that they have plenty and it's down to the German immigration. I basically address that with one sentence which wasn't no scene so I doh know what the fuss is.
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okay ... here are my questions ... is the discriminatory element in football such that it has cast a chilling effect upon the local game ... to the point where the participation rates of the (putatively) affected groups have declined to relatively few involved ... OR ... were the rates low to begin with and did the low rates of participation precede the perception of discrimination (whether actual, tangible or imagined)?
These questions are KEY to assessing the character of race in our football environment.
+++
Moving on ... this books v ball thing is a false dichotomy ... as if one group has a monopoly on one of the two 'considerations' ... moreover, not only is the environment of the schoolyard distinct from the environment of the school's representative eleven ... it (the schoolyard) is also indistinct from the multiple opportunities available for spontaneous play on random streets, alleys, and grassed or denuded patches all over the island outside of the ambit of school ... the sport is available as 'playing democracy' in widespread form ...
[yet, de island has 'exclusive sweats' here and there ... some based on the pillar of socio-economic distinctions ... some based on race (although someone is sure to want to identify an affirmative action sweater :) ... de point is de men sweating dey largely of one persuasion and not de other ...]
Always quick so we're keen to arrive at comparing meritocracies of playing or studying and the implied relative success we think tells us "something" about the groups ... dahis an attractive distractor, but not a sophisticated one ...
+++
Moving on ... Jah Gol's comments bear credence ... and not a little bit ... now to say that DOES NOT not discount vb's anecdotal evidence ... but are we going to indict the "system" based on experiences that are hardly the product of institutionalised policy (OBVIOUSLY, for one, the mere presence of the affected groups at national call-ups etc. is suggestive of a reality pointing AWAY from institutional bias) ... and absent a groundswell of protest or independent action by the powers that be ... the status quo is unlikely to change
Moving on ... what's to be done ... nah lehme save that fuh last ...
We're only having this discussion because of the grandeur and scale of football as a going concern and NATIONAL pastime ... when we ready to engage the forces of democratisation to apply to other sporting activity in the island ... wherever there is a corollary of (at least) perceived institutional bias ... give me a blasted call.
What's to be done fuh football ... grassroots work ... nothing novel, nothing fancy ... FIFA has tonnes of similar projects all across de world ... it's clear the game has to expand in certain sectors because I am not convinced that we have busted the seams in tapping local talent or in maximising development ... that said, we live in a POST-COLONIAL society (btw, I accept the relevance of the grammar school here and how the 'college tie" was then influential) and it is this (the post-colonial society) that has created "priorities" moreso than the dubious rationalization of monopolies and choice selection and comparative advantages we impute to the races. Furthermore, it's not like books and ball are mutually exclusive or ordered by race.
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i've been around the fringes of the local cricket and football fraternities sufficiently to say that the discrimination and insularity that goes on in football pales in comparison to what used to take place in cricket..
and objectively speaking what made it so much worse in cricket was that it wasn't even a minority group that was being discriminated against given that the interest in cricket is evenly distributed.
anyway, i must have been around the wrong sweats and getting blank from the wrong teams because from what I saw for the most part, if yuh exceptional yuh would sweat regardless.. Of course now you had the coaches like Look Loy, Corneal etc who would have their players pre-selected before screening which is a different kinda bias but to say that i saw discrimination based on race when a player was ahead of the game.. cant say i have..
vb, any more info u could provide on your sources?
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1) okay ... here are my questions ... is the discriminatory element in football such that it has cast a chilling effect upon the local game ... to the point where the participation rates of the (putatively) affected groups have declined to relatively few involved ... OR ... were the rates low to begin with and did the low rates of participation precede the perception of discrimination (whether actual, tangible or imagined)?
These questions are KEY to assessing the character of race in our football environment.
+++
2) Moving on ... this books v ball thing is a false dichotomy ... as if one group has a monopoly on one of the two 'considerations' ... moreover, not only is the environment of the schoolyard distinct from the environment of the school's representative eleven ... it (the schoolyard) is also indistinct from the multiple opportunities available for spontaneous play on random streets, alleys, and grassed or denuded patches all over the island outside of the ambit of school ... the sport is available as 'playing democracy' in widespread form ...
[yet, de island has 'exclusive sweats' here and there ... some based on the pillar of socio-economic distinctions ... some based on race (although someone is sure to want to identify an affirmative action sweater :) ... de point is de men sweating dey largely of one persuasion and not de other ...]
Always quick so we're keen to arrive at comparing meritocracies of playing or studying and the implied relative success we think tells us "something" about the groups ... dahis an attractive distractor, but not a sophisticated one ...
+++
3) Moving on ... Jah Gol's comments bear credence ... and not a little bit ... now to say that DOES NOT not discount vb's anecdotal evidence ... but are we going to indict the "system" based on experiences that are hardly the product of institutionalised policy (OBVIOUSLY, for one, the mere presence of the affected groups at national call-ups etc. is suggestive of a reality pointing AWAY from institutional bias) ... and absent a groundswell of protest or independent action by the powers that be ... the status quo is unlikely to change
Moving on ... what's to be done ... nah lehme save that fuh last ...
We're only having this discussion because of the grandeur and scale of football as a going concern and NATIONAL pastime ... when we ready to engage the forces of democratisation to apply to other sporting activity in the island ... wherever there is a corollary of (at least) perceived institutional bias ... give me a blasted call.
What's to be done fuh football ... grassroots work ... nothing novel, nothing fancy ... FIFA has tonnes of similar projects all across de world ... it's clear the game has to expand in certain sectors because I am not convinced that we have busted the seams in tapping local talent or in maximising development ... that said, we live in a POST-COLONIAL society (btw, I accept the relevance of the grammar school here and how the 'college tie" was then influential) and it is this (the post-colonial society) that has created "priorities" moreso than the dubious rationalization of monopolies and choice selection and comparative advantages we impute to the races. Furthermore, it's not like books and ball are mutually exclusive or ordered by race.
Rich post.
With regards to
1) My guess is that with regards to this 'chicken or the egg' argument... the paucity of participant numbers was the precursor and that this number was subsequently depressed, for any number of reasons, included but not limited to discrimination. Just a guess... I have nothing to substantiate it other than anecdotal experience.
2) Agreed... it's a bit simplistic to suggest that Indians were denied opportunity to kick ball therefore they focused more on books. One would think that the kicking ball thing was always/already ancillary in their mind, as it is in the minds of most (guess) in TnT. Books is no one's 'fall back' plan.
3) This has been my point throughout... without discounting the individualized experiences recounted to vb... this by no means should be elevated as proof of some existent "institutionalized" or systematic effort... sufficient to call it 'racism'.
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Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still don’t clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they don’t get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
ditto
it have more blondes in argentina than in sweden
we should be careful not to make wildly ignorant statements.
lots of jews also escaped to Argentina and not all the Germans and Italians who moved there were Nazis or Fascists. Natural blondes are pretty rare and are considered exotic in Argentina. They just seem to have more blonds than their South American neighbors
Lots of Germans moved to Brazil and other parts of South America too. Some southern cities in Brazil you are just as likely to hear German as you are to hear Poruguese. Brazil's women's team had a keeper called Maravilhosa who said she didn't learn POrtuguese until she went to school. Up to that point she thought everyone in Brazil spoke German. There are so many Germans in Brazil that the word commonly used to describe 'blonde' is 'Alemao' or German. That's how the footballer of the 80s got his knickname..from his blond hair. Taffarel and Dunga have gone on record speakign of their pride in their German roots. Doh mean their parents or grandparents were Nazis..but the point is..Italians and Germans of all types moved all over SA.
Much of the criticism of Argentina is just...but some things said kinda off the charts
Filho...my brazilian friend told me in Brazil...there is a Jewish community so ah guess not only German lived there and ah was asking meh colombia friend about black in colombia my question was the black in colombia mirgra from Brazil...he told me no...there is a black community in colombia alway been.... but I was totally surprise went i saw ah black playing for Uruguay during a WCQ game...he even sore a goal...lift his shirt after soring...there was Bob Marley on his front t-shirt....then sometime after I was watching on fifa mundial that they were talking about a black player from Uruguay..way back then he played...ah guess he was real good..they talked about him and the neighborhood he from...i didn't know Uruguay had a black neighborhood...how narrow minded i was
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Filho...my brazilian friend told me in Brazil...there is a Jewish community so ah guess not only German lived there and ah was asking meh colombia friend about black in colombia my question was the black in colombia mirgra from Brazil...he told me no...there is a black community in colombia alway been.... but I was totally surprise went i saw ah black playing for Uruguay during a WCQ game...he even sore a goal...lift his shirt after soring...there was Bob Marley on his front t-shirt....then sometime after I was watching on fifa mundial that they were talking about a black player from Uruguay..way back then he played...ah guess he was real good..they talked about him and the neighborhood he from...i didn't know Uruguay had a black neighborhood...how narrow minded i was
???
Najee..In Brazil there are many Jewish communities. And some of the Jews happen to be German as well (or of German heritage). I have no idea why yuh feel I was saying there was only non-Jewish German migration to Brazil. The point I was making was that there was German migration to other parts of SA besides Argentina and substantial German communities also existed in Brazil. And it wasn't all associated with WWII..goes back long before that and continued well after.
Uruguay hasn't had many but they've had black players back to the 50s and maybe even before. Some of the greatest Uruguayan players have been black. In recent years they've had black players like Napoli (ex-juventus) player Zalayeta and Morales, or mixed (with African) race players like Diogo, Varela, Reguiero and Dario Silva.
Since I've been watching football Uruguay has usually had one or two black players (mostly mixed race) in the lineup..sometimes more. Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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Uruguay is the first nation to play black players on a national squad ... and that's decades before any a dem players Filho call dey ... the first nation!
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At one time Uraguay was part of Argentina. They are across the River Plate. The Uraguayans always felt marginalized so they decided to go it alone. Montevideo is a port city and they brought slave thru there. That is why Uraguay has quite a few blacks in their population. I don't know what the treatment of blacks was and is at the moment. But it appears to be different than the Argentinians. I am not saying there was a "one love" situation but it appears discrimination in Uraguay was less harsh than accross the Boca.
The Uraguayans are not scared to claim their Afro heritage. At some of the football games, one can hear some samba rythms. I have heard it before.They big into Candomble and Carnival and African drumming.
For some reason for a small nation Uraguay has produced world class players for a very long time. I guess because they have to compete with Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay, they have always come up with a way to stay on level terms with the big three. The first Black super star baller in the world was a guy called Andrade. He played for them in the Olimpics. I think they won 2 consecutive Olimpics, so they were the de facto World champions. Then they won the first WC at home. I think Andrade nephew played on the Uraguay team that shock Brazil in 58.
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But didn't Richard Morales claim that he often got arrested because he's black? (although many reporters think the dude is a real troublemaker in uruguay ;D).
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At one time Uraguay was part of Argentina. They are across the River Plate. The Uraguayans always felt marginalized so they decided to go it alone. Montevideo is a port city and they brought slave thru there. That is why Uraguay has quite a few blacks in their population. I don't know what the treatment of blacks was and is at the moment. But it appears to be different than the Argentinians. I am not saying there was a "one love" situation but it appears discrimination in Uraguay was less harsh than accross the Boca.
The Uraguayans are not scared to claim their Afro heritage. At some of the football games, one can hear some samba rythms. I have heard it before.They big into Candomble and Carnival and African drumming.
For some reason for a small nation Uraguay has produced world class players for a very long time. I guess because they have to compete with Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay, they have always come up with a way to stay on level terms with the big three. The first Black super star baller in the world was a guy called Andrade. He played for them in the Olimpics. I think they won 2 consecutive Olimpics, so they were the de facto World champions. Then they won the first WC at home. I think Andrade nephew played on the Uraguay team that shock Brazil in 58.
'50
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They need to try this in argentina -- AfroColombian Census
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY4uf49dMqg
Miss Colombia 2005 - Miss Choco 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRQ7B0zYV-k&feature=related
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See argentina 2:30
Afro-Latinos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08KiG77GtPg&feature=related
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You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.
Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.
Always struck me as kinda strange.
The number of black players represented in the primera and lower divisions is improving (but I can't say it's a function of race) ... if we're talking Mexicans, that's truly something else, but Mexican futbol collectively features more than a handful of black Colombians, Brazilians and others.
Some of these players are "franchise" type players. For instance, Cristian Benitez of Ecuador (Santos Laguna) and Hugo Rodallega of Colombia (Necaxa). Benitez has excelled. Rodallega is less consistent but is in that category nonetheless.
Now, in terms of legacy ... way back in the day a baller like Francois Omam-Biyik (author of the goal that saw Cameroon defeat Argentina at the 1990 World Cup) played in Mexico for Cuauhtemoc Blanco's former club - America.
On top of that today yuh have other players like Felipe Baloy from Panama.
+++
Lehme also add ... We're quick to rush Argentina in terms of race relations (and ah understand the temptation), buh if we take the valid question Palos asked about Mexico and turn the microscope on Argentina's club ball ... in fairness, we also hadda admit that several black ballers play in the Argentine league ranks. Wanchope had a stint there with Rosario Central. And, River and Boca and other clubs have looked at black players periodically without regard to race.
Well, Palos since this post Rodallega has moved on to the EPL ... buh de real reason I draw this thread again is because of Carlos Darwin Quintero (Santos Laguna) ... anybody ketch him in action versus Atlante in de CONCACAF Champions League? Mercy!!!
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Just noticed him tonight playing for Sampdoria -- could Fernando Tissone actually be a black Argentine baller?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Tissone
(http://sp2.fotolog.com/photo/18/38/85/tissone/1222866437953_f.jpg)
(http://files.splinder.com/39b532366b361700d2ac8a2dfb9cad34.jpeg)
(http://i.media.goal.com/g/55596.jpg)
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Maybe just another 'dark' Italian from the tip of the boot?
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Maybe just another 'dark' Italian from the tip of the boot?
He was born and raised in Argentina. And his Italian ancestry is pretty distant -- one great-grandfather, who was actually from the north of Italy.
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Maybe just another 'dark' Italian from the tip of the boot?
He was born and raised in Argentina. And his Italian ancestry is pretty distant -- one great-grandfather, who was actually from the north of Italy.
It's just that...Argentina is Italy's descendants...we all know how Italy feels about "outsiders."
Veron is the closest they go get.
Iz a bunch ah racist there that play some nice football
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I does more wonder why, we have developed a penchant for killing WEself, and others, like it have too much of WE for this world...cyah be, we football pool too big, or we government all that bad....maybe we need somebody else to start killing us, before we start taking care of each other...
Discipline, [Production, Tolerence..
no more RWB, just RED.....funny how we could solve/analyze so much of everyone issues doh...maybe we to bright for we lil piece ah dirt
From today's express
"His killing has pushed the murder toll to 464, according to an Express tally."
"The country’s road fatality figure now stands at 182 for the year."
:'(...sorry, doh mean to hijack the thread, just ah lil down today
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It's just that...Argentina is Italy's descendants...we all know how Italy feels about "outsiders."
Veron is the closest they go get.
Iz a bunch ah racist there that play some nice football
Argentina isn't "Italy's descendants"... there are people from all over Europe in Argentina, including Italians.
Even so, not all Italians are unwelcoming to outsiders... speaking from my limited experience.
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It's just that...Argentina is Italy's descendants...we all know how Italy feels about "outsiders."
Veron is the closest they go get.
Iz a bunch ah racist there that play some nice football
Argentina isn't "Italy's descendants"... there are people from all over Europe in Argentina, including Italians.
Even so, not all Italians are unwelcoming to outsiders... speaking from my limited experience.
I'm surprised you even bother to respond to that.
I read some perspectives here and could only shake my head at the narrowness (often coupled with righteous indignation to boot)...but I guess to each his/her own...
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Come nah man, everybody knows that Argentina is mostly Italian descendants.
And who here doh know that there are other ppl in Argentina besides Italians?
What ProudTrinbagonian said is not misleading unless what he said is your only source of info on Argentina and that cah happen.
Allyuh nitpickin.
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I'm surprised you even bother to respond to that.
I read some perspectives here and could only shake my head at the narrowness (often coupled with righteous
indignation to boot)...but I guess to each his/her own...
I doh think there was any malice intended by his statement I think he genuinely believe what he said, which is why I responded. I think many are responding from the limited info that they have... which is to say they are speaking out of ignorance.
Come nah man, everybody knows that Argentina is mostly Italian descendants.
And who here doh know that there are other ppl in Argentina besides Italians?
What ProudTrinbagonian said is not misleading unless what he said is your only source of info on Argentina and that cah happen.
Allyuh nitpickin.
Of course what he said is misleading when he states that Argentina is comprised of Italy's descendants. Either his statement is inaccurate or it's not... what other sources we might have to supplement his statement or refute it is beside the point. Emphasis isn't on what WE know it's on what HE said... your response is a case of spurious logic at best... put plainly, it makes no sense.
That aside, I'm curious to know how many Italians he's actully met to make such a categorical statement implying that Italians are xenophobic... when evidence to the contrary is clear. Italy has its share of incidents involving race like many other European nations, and indeed no different from the US and Canada... how then does Italy end up being singled out for criticism... and how when we refute that does it become 'nitpicking'?
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The nitpicking part was when yuh said that Argentina isn't Italy's descendants even though the majority of them are.
I didn't touch the other part of your comment.
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The nitpicking part was when yuh said that Argentina isn't Italy's descendants even though the majority of them are.
I didn't touch the other part of your comment.
It's not as much of a majority as you're implying...A large % of Argentines are of spanish descent. From my understanding 50-60% of Argentine whites have "Italian blood"... Not all of those are pure Italians...some are mixed (e.g. Spanish and other European blood as well)...Argentine whites are predominantly Spanish & Italian...so you would have to figure that a large % of Argentine whites also have spanish blood (pure & mixed)... So to press the brakes on a statement like Argentina is Italy's descendants isn't really nitpicking in my opinion....or maybe I'm nitpicking about your use of the word nitpicking ;D ;D
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Ok kicker.
In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.
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Ok kicker.
In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.
Doh sound like there's any doubt to begin with lol
:beermug:
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Ok kicker.
In any case when it comes to race issues I personally don't give Argentina the benefit of the doubt.
To be honest with you I don't disagree... there is credible evidence that the Argentine government in the past has attempted to literally whitewash the populace of any black trace. We've been thru this before... I think in this very thread I posted about it back on page one or two. My disagreement was with him casting Argentina essentially as a "Little Italy" and then extrapolating perceived Argentinian attitudes about race onto all of Italy. That's like saying, "indians in TnT racist... they are descended from Indians on the continent, ergo Indians on the continent must be racist as well". Not sure how sound a leap that is.
(btw to others observing... lest we ge sidetracked again, the comments about 'indians' are for illustration only)
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Wow, just finishing reading this thread and I was quite surprised at the following:
1. The interest of locals about race issues in Argentina.
2. Misconceptions and misunderstandings of what Argentinians consider "black" and the use of the term.
3. The quick assumption of racism because there are no Afro-Argentinians in our football national team.
I saw that some statistics were provided in this thread, I am not going to verify them but I would simply share my experience as someone who was born and was raised there.
First of all, most Argentinians are not wealthy and because of that, very few get the chance to travel abroad for any period of time. When we go on vacation, we usually choose our own beaches as travel destinations or perhaps if we have a little money we go to Uruguay or Brazil.
What most Argentinians know about the USA, England or Europe in general is just from television. A lot of us have Italian or Spaniard grandparents and their culture is visibly in Argentina's society that have adapted these traditions as their own. And yes, most Argentinians consider themselves "European descendants" and they are very proud of their heritage and it is quite shocking for them when they travel abroad and realize they are considered "latinos".
There is a saying Argentinians say which is "There are no blacks in Argentina". I know when someone hears a comment like that, they believe it is racist because they are rejecting the very tiny Afro-Argentine presence in the country but let me tell you, it is NOT the reason. I would dare to say that the "white" population in Trinidad is way bigger than our own Afro-Argentinian population. Why do I say that? Because I can travel anywhere around in Trinidad, specially in the West and I see local "whites" HOWEVER, the few times in my entire life that I have seen Black people in Argentina, they were either Brazilian or Uruguayans. This does NOT mean we do not have Afro-Argentinians but I am trying to illustrate the point of how rare is to walk around the city and meet one so it is not shocking or surprising why we do not see more Afro-Argentinians in our football teams.
So when Argentinians say "there are no blacks in Argentina" they do not mean it out of racism, they say it out of naivety and ignorance because a lot of them never met an Afro-Argentinian before OR they surely met one but they are so mixed that you can no longer tell. Now, this does not mean there is no racism or prejudice in the country. Of course there is, usually prevalent against Bolivians and Paraguayans. But again, this type of prejudice happens all over the world.
Third, some posters mentioned Juan Sebastian Veron as an example of an Afro-Argentinian. He is not considered Afro-Argentinian, he is considered a dark skinned Argentinian which we refer to as "morocho". Now the word "negro" in Argentina is used in two ways. One way is an affectionate way, friends call each other "negro" or "negrito" regardless of how you look. So yes, if you happen to be blonde with blue eyes a friend can call you "negro" or "negrito"and we also use "gordo" and "flaco" (fat and slim) in the same way.
When we use the word "negro" in other contexts, we do not mean "Afro descendant" but we mean any dark skinned Argentinian. The word "negro" could be used to describe people but it is not commonly acceptable, it all depends on the context and how it is being said, we rather the term "morocho" than "negro".
Just like most local "whites" are mixed in Trinidad, Argentinians are also of mixed heritage (whether both groups want to accept it or not or even know that they are mixed, is another story).
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Wow, just finishing reading this thread and I was quite surprised at the following:
1. The interest of locals about race issues in Argentina.
...
There's a lot to respond to in your post. I've decided it would be best to address the items separately rather than collectively.
Part of why interest in the African experience in Argentina exists is due to (1) historical realities and historical forces and (2) contemporary events. Below, I've provided two examples related to the numbered reasons I've mentioned.
(1) Unos 12 millones de africanos esclavizados desembarcaron en América latina entre los siglos XVI y XIX. Buenos Aires y Montevideo se constituyeron en los puertos más importantes del Atlántico sur y surtieron todo el interior de Sudamérica. (...) Si efectuamos el cálculo de que por cada individuo que arribaba vivo a estas costas, cinco perecían por inanición, enfermedades, deshidratación, castigos diversos y suicidios, encontramos que el tráfico esclavista le provocó a África una sangría de más de 60 millones de personas" (Del libro "A los negros argentinos ¡Salud!", de Ângela Corrêa).
Translation: Roughly 12 million enslaved Africans arrived in Latin America between the 16th and 19th centuries. Buenos Aires and Montevideo were the most important ports in the South Atlantic and supplied labour for the interior of the continent. (...) If we make the calculation that, for every individual who arrived, five died en route from starvation, disease, dehydration, various punishments and suicide, we find that the slave trade implicitly involved more than 60 million African captives (From the book: "A los negros argentinos ¡Salud!", by Ângela Corrêa).
(2) El 22 de agosto de 2002 (hace una década) la Policía Aeronáutica detuvo durante seis horas a María Magdalena Lamadrid, argentina de quinta generación, por entonces de 57 años y descendiente de una pareja de esclavos de los tiempos del Virreynato. Ella había presentado su pasaporte para viajar a Panamá, pero las autoridades de Migraciones consideraron falsa la documentación. "No puede ser argentina y negra", le dijeron.
Translation: In August 2002, Argentinian authorities questioned the validity of the passport of a 57 year woman who was attempting to board a plane to Panama. The woman, María Magdalena Lamadrid, a 5th generation Argentine, was the descendant of enslaved forebears. During a six-hour long detention, the authorities expressed that she couldn't be both Argentinian and black.
http://www.lagaceta.com.ar/nota/501897/se-asumen-afrodescendientes-150000-argentinos.html?origen=mlt
On this forum we address a wide range of issues. Some repeatedly. Given the above, there are experiential themes that would resonate with Trinbagonians regarding wanting to learn and understand more about a nation with which we have a linguistic barrier, yet certain common historicities and a passion for football.
There's also reason (3): The impact of past World Cups in presenting ethnic diversity. People came to observe players of African descent representing nations that were counterintuitive with such representation. The breadth of the African diaspora opened people's minds and curiosities. Argentina came to be investigated vis-a-vis its neighbours. Questions started to be asked. Are there black ppl in Argentina? How did they get there? What's their history? As you can imagine, millions of enslaved arrivals prompted a question.
Our school curricula didn't delve into the enslavement of Africans in South America, despite amply referencing Bartolome de las Casas as a protector of the indigenous. But for football and Pele, who knows when we would have discovered afrodescendants in Brazil.
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asylumseeker, thank you for your references. I do not know if they do it now in Argentina, but when I was in school (both primary and secondary school) we covered Argentina history but slavery was not study in depth at all, there were mentions of it here and there but that's about it. There was never a focus on it and I suppose that's a big part of the ignorance I was referring to in my earlier post.
Historians cannot even agree in what exactly happened in Argentina, and why there is not visibly black people in the country even though we had millions of them living there. In my personal view, it was a combination of factors. An Argentina who wanted a "white and European" country and sent blacks to fight to wars, shipped them across to Brazil or Uruguay and a lot of them intermixed with European descendants. Hence, when one Afro-Argentinian group claims we have around 1 or 2 million Afro-Argentinians in the country everyone has the impression that you walk around and see some black people like you see some "white" people in Trinidad and it is NOT the case. If those numbers are correct, the people in question are so mixed that you cannot longer tell.
Growing up, I used to watch a tv show where a child and his parents were Afro-Argentinians. I will try to look for pictures, there is another actress which I think is also Afro-Argentinian. It's not like Argentinians deny their existence on purpose or out of racism, it is because it is not a common occurrence to meet one. And again, perhaps we meet one but we do not know they are Afro-descendants and possibly they themselves do not know.
And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.
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Guichita,nuff respect to u on this topic,u have me in school,now the little i know of Argentina is through Football,one think that always came to the forefront was that same misunderstanding of the race issues,i've been following your posts and it's quite interesting how u are explaining this thing,i doubt it could be said better.
When i was resident in the US i had the opportunity the opportunity to work with an Argentinian Coach at a club call Richmond Strikers,his name was Carlos Martinoli,i learned so much from this guy we became best friends because he had all the liscenses etc etc from Argentina,i used to be amazed of his techniques when demonstrating he made everything look so easy,Carlos is still my friend although i'm back home.
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Apparently Italy and Argentina are really that close "there's no such thing as a black Italian."
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And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.
So they look at her, look at her valid passport, deny her passage on account of her race... but that's not racism?
Lol... this bullshit.
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Apparently Italy and Argentina are really that close "there's no such thing as a black Italian."
I forgot about that!
(If nobody else here, you hadda meet Balo some time).
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http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM
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http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4
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And this rare occurrence is now transferred to other aspects, hence the ignorance of immigration officers towards María Magdalena Lamadrid. Someone will shout racism because it indeed sounds and looks like it when they say "you cannot be Argentinian, you are black". It is just horrible to hear that, but I hope I explained why you get this sort of reaction. This does not mean that some Argentinians are not racist towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnicity. Yet again, racism is present in every country.
So they look at her, look at her valid passport, deny her passage on account of her race... but that's not racism?
I think I explained that in my earlier post. I am not condoning what they did to this woman but I also fully understand the lack of knowledge about Afro-Argentinians in the country and that's not racism but plain ignorance.
HOWEVER, as I said before, this does not mean there is no racism in Argentina towards Afro-Argentinians or any other ethnic group because of course, just like any other country it exists. You do not have to take my word for it but I would hope people who are reading this know I was born and raised there so my position should have some weight versus anyone else who never lived in the country or forms an opinion by hearsay. Not saying a person cannot have an opinion if they never visited Argentina BUT their views are limited if they never experienced what life in Argentina is like.
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http://www.youtube.com/v/IkqlKOUUVa4
I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?
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http://www.youtube.com/v/WC0CBhjnaLM
Great video. The first guy speaks just like an Argentinian even though he is from Uruguay.
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
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I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?
You miss the point spectacularly. If Argentina, historically had similar levels of African peoples as its neighbors, and particular, systemic actions were taken to rid the country of that African presence, to the point that today they are so underrepresented as to be invisible to their fellow countryment... then that state was achieved by racist policies/is the result of racism. Whether there are some in Argentinian football who harbor racist ideas towards Afrodescendientes or not, that is tangential to the fact that racism has so diluted the population of Afrodescendientes in Argentina.
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http://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381
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I wasn't able to play the second video but I wanted to highlight the first one you posted because that's exactly what I have been trying to explain. If Afro-Argentinians were that common in the country, would other Argentinians ask the same lady in the video where is she from? (automatically assuming she is not Argentinian). How can then anyone say that the cause of no Afro-Argentinians in our football team is due to racism?
You miss the point spectacularly. If Argentina, historically had similar levels of African peoples as its neighbors, and particular, systemic actions were taken to rid the country of that African presence, to the point that today they are so underrepresented as to be invisible to their fellow countryment... then that state was achieved by racist policies/is the result of racism. Whether there are some in Argentinian football who harbor racist ideas towards Afrodescendientes or not, that is tangential to the fact that racism has so diluted the population of Afrodescendientes in Argentina.
Not missing the point. In several of my posts I stated my position with regards to the ignorance of most Argentinians with regards to Afro-descendants in the country and I said that it does not mean there is no racism against them or any other ethnicity, and it is NOT unique to Argentina that's one point. The second, I do not think anyone is arguing that have been measures in place in Argentina history that tried to make the population "white" (and I also stated that earlier on) and there has been a lot of discussion and research about what exactly took place with a lot of different views explaining what happened.
If the visible presence of Afro-Argentinians is so tiny why is it so surprising that we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our present football team? That's my point.
I am not here to "defend" Argentina but I feel the need to state that a lot of you are talking with limited understanding and perhaps judging an entire nation about what other Argentinians and non-Argentinians did centuries ago. There is racism in Argentina just like there is racism in T&T and everywhere else.
No offense, I have no problem in exchanging views if any of you lived in the country for a long period of time, it is sort of senseless to try to explain this topic further and link it to culture, Argentinian's mindset mixed with history if the other person did not experience what is like to live there and their knowledge is limited to the internet or hearsay.
I will summarize my points and leave it there:
1. Most Argentinians truly and genuinely, do not know about the existence of Afro-Argentinians in the country because as I explained before and as it was repeated by one of the ladies in the video, when you do meet a black person you instantly assume they are foreigners.
2. Because of point number 1 it is not surprising why we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our football team. The size of our visible Afro-Argentinian community is NOT even remotely close to the "local white" community in Trinidad and Tobago. That's just to show how tiny really is.
I think I am repeating myself so I will leave it like that. Thanks everyone for the chance to explain this. :)
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
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If the visible presence of Afro-Argentinians is so tiny why is it so surprising that we do not have Afro-Argentinians in our present football team? That's my point.
Yes, like I said, you miss the point spectacularly. If you're not missing the point as you protest... then you conveniently fail to link the racist policies of the past (and I'm being charitable here in saying that the policies have been limited to the past) and the paucity of Afro-Argentinians today. I explained to you in great detail that whether we don't see black faces among the Albiceleste due to football admins and coaches not wanting them in the team, is beside the point. The artificially low count of afro-descended Argentinians is the direct result of racism. At best, their exclusion from the national is indirectly a product of that same racism.
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Gauchita, there are some items you seem to be "smoothing over" out of concern for indicting Argentina. I urge you to fill in the gaps in continued good faith. The risk is that you project a superficial treatment of the full picture. For me, it serves no useful purpose to assert that all societies are racist. That does not (and should not) absolve those of us with a heightened sense of social engagement from tackling difficult issues.
With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.
Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.
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Personally I think arguing this topic is a waste of time. Look we all know what happened in the past in Argentina (to be specific), let's just move on from it now. We can't change the past, we can only improve the future. Gauchita and his countrymen aren't responsible for the deeds of his ancestors nor am I for mine.
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.
Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.
ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.
if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.
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Personally I think arguing this topic is a waste of time. Look we all know what happened in the past in Argentina (to be specific), let's just move on from it now. We can't change the past, we can only improve the future. Gauchita and his countrymen aren't responsible for the deeds of his ancestors nor am I for mine.
The raison d'être of the public discourse around afrodescendientes and invisibilidad ("their invisibility") is to improve the future, despite the uncomfortable past and present. It's not about changing the past. It's also not about culpability. It's about embracing collective responsibility today on all sides, despite the obvious reality that no one today partook in the sins or suffering of the fathers.
The truth is we "all" don't know what happened in Argentina. Beyond that, the discourse on afrodescendientes and invisibilidad extends throughout the Americas. Fortunately, you're not available to provide advice on the responsive treatments of holocausts.
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.
Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.
ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.
if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.
Unlike Gauchita, I don't view it as absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment ... nonetheless, I satisy that "requirement". I could go there tomorrow and locate the elusive faces.
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With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
I will just say this and then focus on football. ;)
Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.
I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.
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Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?
At least 10-12 provinces.
asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.
Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.
ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.
if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.
Unlike Gauchita, I don't view it as absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment ... nonetheless, I satisy that "requirement". I could go there tomorrow and locate the elusive faces.
I'm surprised you are misquoting me or misunderstanding me. This is what I said:
Not saying a person cannot have an opinion if they never visited Argentina BUT their views are limited if they never experienced what life in Argentina is like.
You are entitled to your opinion, even if you never visited Argentina.
N'uff said.
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With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
I will just say this and then focus on football. ;)
Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.
I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.
... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. :devil:
Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?
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With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
I will just say this and then focus on football. ;)
Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.
I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.
... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. :devil:
And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.
Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?
Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?
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I was referring to this ...
...
I am not here to "defend" Argentina but I feel the need to state that a lot of you are talking with limited understanding and perhaps judging an entire nation about what other Argentinians and non-Argentinians did centuries ago. There is racism in Argentina just like there is racism in T&T and everywhere else.
No offense, I have no problem in exchanging views if any of you lived in the country for a long period of time, it is sort of senseless to try to explain this topic further and link it to culture, Argentinian's mindset mixed with history if the other person did not experience what is like to live there and their knowledge is limited to the internet or hearsay.
There was no malicious intent (or attempt) to mischaracterize what you meant.
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I did not say in that paragraph that it is "absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment". I take it personal because I did not say that and in another post I specifically said that I am NOT saying they cannot comment.
What I was trying to say is that it is hard to explain this topic further when the other person did not experience what life in Argentina is like because there is a cultural link strongly attached to the issue. I can only share in the best way I can and perhaps when people travel there one day and live there for a while they can see for themselves what I have been trying to explain.
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asylumseeker, and what do you exactly mean in Spanish by "Move the ball... Are you willing to lose at home"? Not really a fan of riddles.
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With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
I will just say this and then focus on football. ;)
Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.
I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.
... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. :devil:
And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.
Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?
Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?
If you review the thread from start to end, you'll notice that I made no comment on the introduction of Verón's name until now ... which I did in jest.
The original mention of Verón surprised me, but if it serves no other purpose ... it underscores the present-day confusion between how ppl see themselves versus how others identify them. (This is a general comment, not Verón specific).
Race is broader than phenotype. How would the world respond if Obama had announced he was "white", rather than "black"? He's "perfectly" entitled to choose either, ent?
(rhetorical questions).
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I did not say in that paragraph that it is "absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment". I take it personal because I did not say that and in another post I specifically said that I am NOT saying they cannot comment.
What I was trying to say is that it is hard to explain this topic further when the other person did not experience what life in Argentina is like because there is a cultural link strongly attached to the issue. I can only share in the best way I can and perhaps when people travel there one day and live there for a while they can see for themselves what I have been trying to explain.
:beermug:
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asylumseeker, and what do you exactly mean in Spanish by "Move the ball... Are you willing to lose at home"? Not really a fan of riddles.
Time to return to football ... ready to lose days before the World Cup?
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With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?
I will just say this and then focus on football. ;)
Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.
I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.
... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. :devil:
And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.
Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?
Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?
If you review the thread from start to end, you'll notice that I made no comment on the introduction of Verón's name until now ... which I did in jest.
The original mention of Verón surprised me, but if it serves no other purpose ... it underscores the present-day confusion between how ppl see themselves versus how others identify them. (This is a general comment, not Verón specific).
Race is broader than phenotype. How would the world respond if Obama had announced he was "white", rather than "black"? He's "perfectly" entitled to choose either, ent?
(rhetorical questions).
First, I would like to apologize if I misunderstood your Spanish statement. I was still caught in this topic and I did not realize that you was talking about something completely different, the game between Argentina and T&T. Sorry.
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... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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nice link
http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.ca/2012/10/african-descendants-in-argentina-afro.html
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check out some of Fidal Nadal's videos. He is unapologetically Black in the face of so much Argentine racism. His mom is white too.
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So when Argentinians say "there are no blacks in Argentina" they do not mean it out of racism, they say it out of naivety and ignorance because a lot of them never met an Afro-Argentinian before OR they surely met one but they are so mixed that you can no longer tell.
Or perhaps they are even Afro-Argentines themselves, yet deny the fact?
From the article (http://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381) that was posted above:
"People for years have accepted the idea that there are no black people in Argentina," Miriam Gomes, a professor of literature at the University of Buenos Aires, who is part black herself, told the Post.
"Even the schoolbooks here accepted this as a fact. But where did that leave me?"
She also explained that almost no one in Argentina with black blood in their veins will admit to it.
"Without a doubt, racial prejudice is great in this society, and people want to believe that they are white," she said. "Here, if someone has one drop of white blood, they call themselves white."
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On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent?
According to the BBC's Tim Vickery, yes (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24203814):
But there is still an African presence in Argentina's DNA. Hector Baley, for example, reserve goalkeeper in the 1978 World Cup, is an afro-descendent.
(http://copa3x4.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/hector-baley2.jpg) (http://www.laststicker.com/i/cards/375/60.jpg) (http://fotos.lmcordoba.com.ar/fotos/2013/02/120351_img.jpg)
(http://deportedearchivo.com/Imagenes/Baley%20Héctor/Hector%20Baley%20seleccion.jpg)
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On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent?
According to the BBC's Tim Vickery, yes (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/24203814):
But there is still an African presence in Argentina's DNA. Hector Baley, for example, reserve goalkeeper in the 1978 World Cup, is an afro-descendent.
(http://copa3x4.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/hector-baley2.jpg) (http://www.laststicker.com/i/cards/375/60.jpg) (http://fotos.lmcordoba.com.ar/fotos/2013/02/120351_img.jpg)
(http://deportedearchivo.com/Imagenes/Baley%20Héctor/Hector%20Baley%20seleccion.jpg)
definitely African blood flowing through those veins...
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definitely African blood flowing through those veins...
Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.
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Just noticed him tonight playing for Sampdoria -- could Fernando Tissone actually be a black Argentine baller?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Tissone
(http://sp2.fotolog.com/photo/18/38/85/tissone/1222866437953_f.jpg)
According to his Wiki entry and his personal webpage (http://www.fernandotissone.com/en/identikit), Tissone (now playing for Malaga in Spain) has a maternal grandfather from Cape Verde. So that would seem to confirm my hypothesis that he is indeed an Afro-Argentine.
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definitely African blood flowing through those veins...
Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.
lol true dat
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definitely African blood flowing through those veins...
Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.
Probably Indian. The boat does go adrift sometimes.
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So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.
He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day ::) when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.
I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.
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So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.
He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day ::) when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.
I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.
Elan, what that means is he doesn't know his own history.
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So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.
He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day ::) when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.
I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.
Elan, what that means is he doesn't know his own history.
From what I gathered, that's what he was taught and what he truly believes (or truly allow himself to believe) . I suspect that there is no reason for him to look into Argentina's real history.
Veron IS NOT black.
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So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.
He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day ::) when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.
I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.
Did you direct him to this thread?
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I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain. He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.
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I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain. He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.
Where was he from?
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I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain. He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.
Where was he from?
Sorry, Trinidad... living in London, black fella.
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I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain. He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.
Where was he from?
Sorry, Trinidad... living in London, black fella.
that's normal, when i was a teenager spending time in Mexico because i spoke spanish everybody assumed I was from Acapulco because that's where most Afro Mexicans live.
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that's normal, when i was a teenager spending time in Mexico because i spoke spanish everybody assumed I was from Acapulco because that's where most Afro Mexicans live.
Yuh miss de point... at no time did they even consider that he might have been from Argentina itself, because Argentina has no black people, remember? At least Acapulco still part ah Mexico.
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Have a brethren from Argentina, he said the first time he ever saw a black person in his life, was when he came to the US. Take that into perspective...very tiny populace of blacks..
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Argentina Rediscovers its African Roots
The chapel in the small lakeside resort community of Chascomús is at best underwhelming. Its whitewashed brick exterior is partly obstructed by a tangle of vines and bushes, and its dim, one-room interior is no more majestic than its facade. Wooden pews and an uneven dirt floor are scarcely illuminated by sunlight from a single window. The gray, cracked, dusty walls are adorned with crosses, photos, icons — things people leave to mark their pilgrimage. A low front altar is layered with thick candle wax, flowers and a pantheon of black saints, Madonnas and African deities like the sea goddess Yemanja of the Yoruba religion.
Despite its unkempt state, this chapel, the Capilla de los Negros, attracts a little over 11,000 tourists each year who come to see a church named for the freed slaves who built it in 1861.
The chapel is “where we can locate ourselves and point out the truth that we are here,” said Soledad Luis, an Afro-Argentine from the tourism office who led me through the space. She knows it well. It sits on a plot her great-grandfather helped secure, and her family still gathers there weekly for a meal.
Capilla de los Negros feels off the beaten path, but it is part of a list of slave sites in Argentina created in 2009 by Unesco. Its inclusion signals the growing consciousness of African heritage in Argentina, seemingly the most Europeanized country in South America.
Argentina at one time had a robust African presence because of the slaves who were brought there, but its black population was decimated by myriad factors including heavy casualties on the front lines in the War of the Triple Alliance against Paraguay in the 1860s; a yellow fever epidemic that rich, white Argentines largely escaped; and interracial offspring who, after successive generations, shed their African culture along with their features. And European immigration swelled the white population — 2.27 million Italians came between 1861 and 1914.
The demographic shift has been sharp. In 1800, on the eve of revolution with Spain, blacks made up more than a third of the country, 69,000 of a total population of 187,000, according to George Reid Andrews’s 2004 book “Afro-Latin America.” In 2010, 150,000 identified themselves as Afro-Argentine, or a mere 0.365 percent of a population of 41 million people, according to the census, the first in the country’s history that counted race.
But the culture the slaves brought with them remained. And in recent years, Argentina has gone from underselling its African roots to rediscovering them, as academics, archaeologists, immigrants and a nascent civil rights movement have challenged the idea that African and Argentine are mutually exclusive terms.
Continue reading the main story
Some see creating tourist trails, with plaques and brochures, as a way to educate locals and tourists alike about this long-suppressed history. In my several visits the last few years and during my time living in the country, the trail led me to the other Argentina, one that is just starting to be woven into the country’s narrative about itself.
MY FIRST STOP required some dancing shoes. I dropped in on a tango lesson at the Movimiento Afrocultural on Buenos Aires’s Calle Defensa in San Telmo. The cultural institution was started in 2009 to promote African and African-Argentine heritage. As I scanned its events calendar, there were many activities that had an obvious African bent, but tango?
“There are no doubts that tango has an African origin,” the teacher, Veronica Rueco, told me. Together, we watched locals and tourists practice their dance moves in the center, a converted warehouse whose walls were lined with candombe drums carved with images of slave ship hulls filled with chained human cargo. “The only doubt is the exact story of how it came about.”
The dance form, she went on to note, was created in the late 1800s, the result of a fusion of African and European immigrant culture. (The term tango is thought to originate from a Niger-Congo term that survived the trans-Atlantic passage along with the slaves, according to Dr. Erika Edwards of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.)
The center’s director, an Afro-Uruguayan named Diego Bonga, leads a drum circle that draws a diverse crowd. The night I attended there were Porteños (from Buenos Aires), Chileans, Uruguayans and even a woman from Iran. The curious peered through the gates at us. Those onlookers are part of the party on Sundays, the neighborhood’s busiest day, when antiques vendors line Defensa, and Plaza Dorrego becomes an open-air milonga, or tango salon, with performers, locals and tourists dancing past midnight. That day, Movimiento Afrocultural holds a candombe parade. Spectators become participants, dancing on the cobblestones in the jittery shake of a murga comparsa, an Argentine dance popular during Carnival season, also rooted in African culture.
I followed the musicians down Defensa as they reached Plaza Dorrego, yellow lights casting a 1920s postcard sepia dream tone over dancers moving two by two. I watched as bystanders searched for the source of the loud, boisterous music. They began stepping in sync with the candombe, bringing to life again their abandoned African forebears.
My next visit was a little less lively. It was underground. It’s no secret that underneath Old Buenos Aires lies a latticework of tunnels, used by colonial smugglers to avoid Spanish tariffs and by priests to travel between Jesuit churches like San Francisco and San Ignacio at the Manzana de las Luces historical site.
Lesser known are the tunnels that run under residential buildings like the one at Defensa 1464 in San Telmo. The complexity of that structure, which is the subject of a 2009 documentary directed by David Rubio, was uncovered by Freda Montaño, an Afro-Ecuadorean who runs the restaurant Rincón Ecuatoriano and once lived there. The colonial-era building’s history has partly been obscured by a new belle epoque facade that it got at the turn of the last century, a period when Buenos Aires consciously mimicked Paris. Still,
Ms. Montaño said she found tunnels in the basement and a small door meant “for someone who services the house, so as not to interfere with what is being done by the white people.” She said that neighbors told her the tunnels lead to Parque Lezama, where slaves were sold and then transported underground to the households purchasing them.
Plaza San Martín, home to the statue of Argentina’s liberator, José de San Martín, was the city’s other main slave auction site. These sites, along with entire districts within Buenos Aires’s colonial core, are part of Unesco’s slave route heritage listing but remain largely unmarked by historical plaques.
Ms. Montaño opened a short-lived cultural center at Defensa 1464 but was forced to close when the landlord wanted to sell the house. She says she hopes the city buys it and creates a museum, and believes that demonstrating the tunnels’ relationship to slavery will benefit tourists and locals alike, “where the world knows nothing of this because people say in this country there are no Afro-descendants.”
Slavery’s connection to the tunnels under this building is unclear, though academics like Pablo Cirio, director of Afro-Argentine studies at the National University, said they were used “to transport goods and live workers — read human slaves — but no serious studies prove it.”
Another network of tunnels lies underneath El Zanjón de Granados museum in San Telmo. They lead through a dried-out, brick-covered creek used as a sewer system. The city’s smallest house, Casa Mínima, is part of the museum complex, and tours explain that it was owned by a freed slave, among Buenos Aires’s few open recognitions of its slave past.
There have been other attempts to examine Argentina’s African roots in Buenos Aires, including a now-closed maritime museum discussing the slave trade in the La Boca neighborhood. And during Argentina’s 2010 bicentennial, cultural institutions sought to mark the country’s diverse past. The National Historical Museum grouped paintings from the museum’s permanent collection of the five-decade-long Emancipation era. The exhibition center Casa Nacional del Bicentenario occasionally surveys African influences in Argentine music. Outside the capital, in San Antonio de Areco, there are exhibits on Argentina’s black gauchos, or cowboys, in the Museo Ricardo Güiraldes and Museo Las Lilas de Areco. Near Cordoba, the Museo de la Estancia Jesuítica de Alta Gracia, part of Unesco’s slave trail list, also contains exhibitions on the relationship among Jesuits, natives and African slaves.
But those attractions all look backward. As part of the shift toward embracing Afro-Argentine culture, the country is beginning to welcome contemporary African influence. El Buen Sabor restaurant in the Villa Crespo neighborhood, for example, was started by a Cameroonian in 2008. The small, yellow space seats perhaps two dozen, but its reputation is outsize. I caught up with its owner, Maxime Tankouo, during one of my visits. “I was seen as a little weird here when I arrived” in 2001, he said. “It was eight days before I saw someone of my race.” He said, “I mix many things, Moroccan, African, Cameroon, all in the same plate.” At first Mr. Tankouo was supported largely by French and other tourists. Now locals are the majority of clients.
These new immigrant arrivals are unintentionally bridging a gap that has already been partly overcome. Even traditional restaurants have an Afro-Argentine touch, albeit unintentional. “Our gastronomic symbol has an African character,” Nicolás Fernández Bravo, a University of Buenos Aires social anthropologist, said of the asado, the Argentine grill consumed by nearly all visiting tourists. He told me of the 19th-century Argentine literary classic “El Matadero” by Esteban Echeverría, with descriptions of cows being butchered and the dividing out of the mollejas, or glands. “Sweetbread parts were given to the slaves,” he said. “This is now part of the general meal, and thought of as a special delicacy, but at one time this would never have been eaten among the elites.”
Argentina still wrestles with its complicated identity. Back at the chapel, Ms. Luis told me she is often the first Afro-Argentine local tourists have met, some arguing she is from elsewhere. Because of this, she said, “the history of blacks must be told to you by blacks.”
Her boss, José Fares, head of Chascomús tourism, explained that the chapel is one way Argentina can overcome its own myths, recounting the Argentine axiom, “ ‘the Mexicans descended from the Mayans, the Peruvians from the Incas, and us, from the boats.’ We Argentines think we are the Europeans of South America.”
Ms. Luis reminds us that her ancestors came by boat, too, saying: “They immigrated. We were brought here.”
Source: The New York Times, September 9, 2014
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/travel/argentina-rediscovers-its-african-roots.html
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Yesterday ah was standing at a magazine kiosk buying a newspaper when a woman walked by, gently put her hand on my back, and said “quilombo“, then off she continued down the street.
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Yesterday ah was standing at a magazine kiosk buying a newspaper when a woman walked by, gently put her hand on my back, and said “quilombo“, then off she continued down the street.
I don't understand the reference.
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Yesterday ah was standing at a magazine kiosk buying a newspaper when a woman walked by, gently put her hand on my back, and said “quilombo“, then off she continued down the street.
I don't understand the reference.
African slave reference... well Brazilian. She probably took him for a Brazilian tourist.
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Yesterday ah was standing at a magazine kiosk buying a newspaper when a woman walked by, gently put her hand on my back, and said “quilombo“, then off she continued down the street.
I don't understand the reference.
African slave reference... well Brazilian. She probably took him for a Brazilian tourist.
This was one of my inferences. As the vendor sourced the paper (I wanted the Sunday paper, and it was Monday at about 7pm ah was asking for it), I was scanning the postcard rack when she walked by. In context, most passers-by would have concluded I wasn't from there. However, a few minutes later, an Argentine woman stopped to peruse the cards as well. Theoretically, anyone could be buying a postcard.
It all happened so quickly that as I turned to look at the woman making the quilombo comment, I just smiled, and returned to what I was doing. It reminded me of being in Colombia and a fella in a passing car shouted out "Nariño". (Nariño is a figure in Colombian history who "granted" slaves their freedom predicated on their service in his army that fought against the Spanish Crown. It is also the name of a region in Colombia in which there is a sizeable representation of Afro-Colombians).
A lil football anecdote: When she made her purchase, she was sure to tell the vendor that the Boca cards were in better condition than the River cards and that he needed to fix that. :) Football permeates everything.
In Uruguay, in Punta del Este, where tourism booms at this time of the year, even the Brazilians thought I was Brazilian. An Afro-Brazilian told me, “you look Brazilian“. When I went to pay for an item in a small souvenir shop, the cashier immediately started in Portuguese. However, the workers on the floor addressed me in Spanish and/or English ... but always Spanish first. This strikes me as no different to Quebec, where people start with French first and then venture into English, if French not doing the trick.
Sitting in a cafe in Punta del Este, a boy of probably 5 or 6 years of age walked up to me and asked: are you from Colombia or from Uruguay? That was his introduction. As I was processing it, I realized that his parents were just as curious. I said: Neither! Trinidad & Tobago. They were not expecting that ... so they nodded and kinda made the point to him that there was a benefit to asking questions ... de youth made for the door ... which was only a few paces away. As he was exiting, he said to them, ah wonder what team he plays for ... which confirmed one of the items I had been procesing within the dilemma of his laden question.
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Yesterday ah was standing at a magazine kiosk buying a newspaper when a woman walked by, gently put her hand on my back, and said “quilombo“, then off she continued down the street.
I don't understand the reference.
African slave reference... well Brazilian. She probably took him for a Brazilian tourist.
This was one of my inferences. As the vendor sourced the paper (I wanted the Sunday paper, and it was Monday at about 7pm ah was asking for it), I was scanning the postcard rack when she walked by. In context, most passers-by would have concluded I wasn't from there. However, a few minutes later, an Argentine woman stopped to peruse the cards as well. Theoretically, anyone could be buying a postcard.
It all happened so quickly that as I turned to look at the woman making the quilombo comment, I just smiled, and returned to what I was doing. It reminded me of being in Colombia and a fella in a passing car shouted out "Nariño". (Nariño is a figure in Colombian history who "granted" slaves their freedom predicated on their service in his army that fought against the Spanish Crown. It is also the name of a region in Colombia in which there is a sizeable representation of Afro-Colombians).
A lil football anecdote: When she made her purchase, she was sure to tell the vendor that the Boca cards were in better condition than the River cards and that he needed to fix that. :) Football permeates everything.
In Uruguay, in Punta del Este, where tourism booms at this time of the year, even the Brazilians thought I was Brazilian. An Afro-Brazilian told me, “you look Brazilian“. When I went to pay for an item in a small souvenir shop, the cashier immediately started in Portuguese. However, the workers on the floor addressed me in Spanish and/or English ... but always Spanish first. This strikes me as no different to Quebec, where people start with French first and then venture into English, if French not doing the trick.
Sitting in a cafe in Punta del Este, a boy of probably 5 or 6 years of age walked up to me and asked: are you from Colombia or from Uruguay? That was his introduction. As I was processing it, I realized that his parents were just as curious. I said: Neither! Trinidad & Tobago. They were not expecting that ... so they nodded and kinda made the point to him that there was a benefit to asking questions ... de youth made for the door ... which was only a few paces away. As he was exiting, he said to them, ah wonder what team he plays for ... which confirmed one of the items I had been procesing within the dilemma of his laden question.
Living in Quebec, I'm quite familiar with this. But also, being black, if I speak English, it is assumed I'm from Jamaica but if I speak in French it is assumed I'm from Haiti.
re: the youth's exiting comment. Football really does permeate all aspects of life in that society.
re: quilombo. After my initial question, I did a google search and found a reference that suggested it is also sometimes used to refer to a brothel. Had me wondering given the manner, and intimacy, of the interaction.
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Living in Quebec, I'm quite familiar with this. But also, being black, if I speak English, it is assumed I'm from Jamaica but if I speak in French it is assumed I'm from Haiti.
re: the youth's exiting comment. Football really does permeate all aspects of life in that society.
re: quilombo. After my initial question, I did a google search and found a reference that suggested it is also sometimes used to refer to a brothel. Had me wondering given the manner, and intimacy, of the interaction.
The thing is that his global view was constructed on stereotype. I was not wearing anything athletic or football-related. There was no basis on which to presume I played. It was an opportunity to shift a fence ... however, I did not. One of those situations where one weighs all the interests and moves on.
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Living in Quebec, I'm quite familiar with this. But also, being black, if I speak English, it is assumed I'm from Jamaica but if I speak in French it is assumed I'm from Haiti.
re: the youth's exiting comment. Football really does permeate all aspects of life in that society.
re: quilombo. After my initial question, I did a google search and found a reference that suggested it is also sometimes used to refer to a brothel. Had me wondering given the manner, and intimacy, of the interaction.
The thing is that his global view was constructed on stereotype. I was not wearing anything athletic or football-related. There was no basis on which to presume I played. It was an opportunity to shift a fence ... however, I did not. One of those situations where one weighs all the interests and moves on.
Not surprising given his age and the society. The issue now is whether or not he remains that way as he grows up or does he manage to 'shift his fences'.
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Given the nature of this thread, it seems appropriate to point out that Correo Argentino (the postal service) only some weeks ago issued this stamp ...
(http://www.stampnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/mandela-l-300x232.jpg)
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Uruguay has a "walk of fame" ... similar to the Hollywood stars thing ... that honours Uruguayans who have made an inordinate contribution to the nation. This past weekend I decided to take a guided tour of the Ciudad Vieja (the area of Montevideo that is the heart of the old colonial centre), and I was surprised to learn that Nelson Mandela is the ONLY foreigner there honoured. Truth be told, I had walked right by and over his "star" (in the shape of the sun on the Uruguayan flag) tens of times and had no idea that it (or the others) was/were there. Mandela's legacy across the world is boundless. In fact, the "star" is a few feet away from where I stopped to speak with a Senegalese businessman (married to an Argentine) about 2 weeks ago.
More pertinent to the topic ... players have to be selected on merit to come through the ranks. Will say more on this in due course.
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Just found out this week that Roberto Nurse (http://www.mediotiempo.com/futbol/internacional/noticias/2014/03/21/mexicano-roberto-nurse-en-la-mira-de-panama), who plays for Panama, would have been eligible to play for Mexico. Mexican citizen by birth.
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The black people 'erased from history' (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35981727)
By Arlene Gregorius, BBC News
More than a million people in Mexico are descended from African slaves and identify as "black", "dark" or "Afro-Mexican" even if they don't look black. But beyond the southern state of Oaxaca they are little-known and the community's leaders are now warning of possible radical steps to achieve official recognition.
"The police made me sing the national anthem three times, because they wouldn't believe I was Mexican," says Chogo el Bandeno, a black Mexican singer-songwriter.
"I had to list the governors of five states too." (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03qb17h)
He was visiting the capital, Mexico City, hundreds of miles from his home in southern Mexico, when the police stopped him on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant.
Fortunately his rendition of the anthem and his knowledge of political leaders convinced the police to leave him alone, but other Afro-Mexicans have not been so fortunate.
Clemente Jesus Lopez, who runs the government office in charge of Afro-Mexicans in Oaxaca state, recalls two separate cases, both involving women.
"One was deported to Honduras and the other to Haiti because the police insisted that in Mexico there are no black people. Despite having Mexican ID, they were deported."
With the help of the Mexican consulates they were able to return but were offered no apology or compensation, Lopez says.
Black Mexicans have been living in the Costa Chica area, on the Pacific coast of Oaxaca, since their ancestors were brought from Africa as slaves in the 16th Century.
Colonial Spanish cattle ranchers often used them as foremen, in charge of indigenous Mexican workers who were not used to animals the size of cows or horses.
But outside the Costa Chica area there is little awareness of their existence.
An interim census in 2015 indicated a black population of 1.4 million, or 1.2% of the Mexican population. Even in Oaxaca state they only account for 5% of the total.
By comparison, indigenous peoples made up nearly 10% of Mexico's population, as measured in the 2010 census.
The appearance of those who identify as black Mexicans varies considerably. Some are hard to distinguish from indigenous Mexicans.
"It's not only about skin colour, it's also about how you feel," says Tulia Serrano Arellanes, a council worker. "You may have had a grandmother who was black and feel black, even if you don't look it."
Much of their identity is based on where they live - if you live in a black town such as Santiago Llano Grande, as Chogo el Bandeno does, you are likely to think of yourself as black.
But there is also a common culture.
For example, there's a distinctive style of music called the chilena, which was brought to the Costa Chica in the 19th Century by Chilean sailors on their way to the gold rush in California, which black musicians have adapted.
They have added Afro-Mexican instruments such as the quijada, a dried out donkey's jawbone with rattling molar teeth. There's also the bote, a friction drum - you rub a stick attached to the drum skin and it makes a kind of growling percussive noise. These sounds are a central part of Afro-Mexican musical life.
There are also dances that hark back to the colonial ranching days, including the Dance of the Devils, performed around the Day of the Dead at the end of October and in early November.
The dancers wear "devil" masks, and are led by the brash character "Pancho", who plays the colonial ranch foreman.
He struts around with a whip while his buxom "white" wife - played by a black man - flirts outrageously with the "devils" and even with the audience.
In the towns of the Costa Chica, even nursery-age children learn steps of the dance and are taught to take pride in their black heritage.
But there is frustration here that the Afro-Mexicans are not more widely known in Mexico and are not officially recognised as a minority by the Mexican government.
According to Humberto Hebert Silva Silva, head of the Bureau for Afro-Mexican Affairs in Oaxaca, this is because Afro-Mexicans speak Spanish, like most other Mexicans - they do not have their own language.
"When we go and ask [for recognition as a minority], they come up with excuses, or say that we don't have an indigenous mother tongue. Language is the real criterion," he says. "We are being discriminated against."
If Afro-Mexicans were classified as a minority they would receive extra funding for promotion of their culture and public health programmes.
But activists including Israel Reyes, a teacher, want more than money, it's also important to them that the existence of Afro-Mexicans is recognised at the level of the Mexican state.
"The story of the black population has been ignored and erased from history," he says.
The activists' efforts have born some fruit.
The 2015 interim census for the first time gave respondents the option to identify themselves as black - negro in Spanish - though this is not a term used by all Afro-Mexicans, many of whom call themselves "dark" (moreno) or use other, local terms to describe themselves.
But some Afro-Mexicans are impatient for more recognition.
Humberto Hebert Silva Silva warns that the black community may end up emulating the indigenous uprising in Chiapas in the 1990s, known as the Zapatistas.
"So far the black communities have endured discrimination and they have stuck to legal avenues, which they have now exhausted," he says.
"With the Zapatistas, the indigenous rose up, and it was an armed uprising, to claim their rights. And well, our community is thinking the same. It's thinking, in the distant future, to rise up too," he says.
"It may be the only way to get the rights we're entitled to. It can't be right that the constitution of our country doesn't recognise us. There's a big gap between what the politicians say and what they do. We'll have to take action to give them a warning."
Related audio available here. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03qg3mc)
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Good read. The Mexican anthem too damn long, though!.
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Listened to the podcast last weekend - definitely worth a listen
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It was on npr around 1am this morning. It was worth listening. It is a struggle for them in Mex. some Mex. are unable to believe that there are Blacks who are born and raised in the country since inception. At least the inception of the republic. The Afro-Mex. are between a rock and a hard place, as the saying goes.
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Henry Louis Gates ...did a documentary on this issue a couple years ago..what was remarkable about that situation was the fact that Mexico second president was an African...go figure
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Gradin, the champion who conquered racism
FIFA
The oldest national team competition in the world, the Copa America is celebrating its 100th anniversary. Since it was first contested, this grand old competition has yielded many tales and stories, though few of them as resonant as that of Uruguayan pioneer Isabelino Gradin.
The first black player to play international football in South America, Gradin was the leading goalscorer and best player at that inaugural Copa in 1916, inspiring Uruguay to the title. Overcoming prejudice and discrimination, the proud striker showed the way for other black players and went down in history as one of the greats of those early days.
Born in Montevideo in 1897, a descendant of slaves from Lesotho and the son of immigrants, Gradin grew up in the working-class neighbourhood of Barrio Sur, the home of the drums that have forged the sound of candombe, the popular Uruguayan musical genre. It was there, on the stone pavements of the country’s capital, that Isabelino began to hone his technique in the rough and tumble of street football.
The young Gradin was blessed with both power and speed, and had so much of both that even though he went on to play football for his country and win trophies, he also devoted his considerable energies to athletics.
He began his playing career as an 18-year-old with Penarol, and travelled one year later to Buenos Aires for the first South American Championships. Much was happening on the fast-growing continental football scene, with the increasing number of international friendlies and the need to organise competitive matches to continue expanding the game resulting in the creation of the South American Football Confederation (CSF) in the Argentinian capital.
The continental tournament, which was held to mark the 100th anniversary of Argentinian independence, was contested by the host nation, Uruguay, Chile and Brazil. The four teams played each other once, with the trophy going to the side amassing most points.
A much-remembered matchwinner
The opening match was played out by Uruguay and Chile on 2 July at the home ground of Gimnasia y Esgrima in Buenos Aires, before a crowd of 3,000. La Celeste won 4-0, with Gradin scoring twice, though what made the game truly notable was the fact that it was the first time two black players (Gradin and his team-mate Juan Delgado) featured for a national team in an official competition.
The Chilean delegation later appealed to the newly formed CSF, demanding that they should be awarded the points on account of the fact that Uruguay had fielded two "Africans” in their team. The appeal was rejected. Los Charrúas went on to beat Brazil, a game in which Gradin was again on the scoresheet, and draw with the hosts to win the first of their 15 Copa America crowns.
Gradin made an indelible mark on the competition. The leading marksman with three goals, he was also named the player of the tournament. Uruguay retained their title the following year, though Gradin did not feature in any of the games.
He also wrote his name in the history books at Penarol, helping the club win league titles in 1918 and 1921, and scoring 101 goals in 212 matches for them. One of the greatest all-time heroes of El Mirasol, he was described thus in the club’s Libro de Oro del Centenario ('Golden Centenary Book'): “A shooting star, Isabelino Gradin was granted his three wishes: that he would excel on pitch and track, have the poets sing about him and be remembered forever.”
Gradin the speed merchant
A fast and gifted athlete, Gradin divided his time between football and track and field, and joined the athletics club Olimpia in 1922, going on to win three South American 400m titles and two continental 200m and 4x400m relay titles.
So talented was he that the writers and poets of that pre-television age were moved to immortalise him, while in later years, the award-winning Eduardo Galeano recalled his feats at the 1916 Copa America in his book Fútbol a Sol y Sombra (Football in Sun and Shadow): “People rose to their feet whenever he set off on one of his amazingly fast runs, controlling the ball as someone else could only manage at walking pace, weaving his way past opponents at top speed and shooting on the gallop. He had the most wholesome of faces, and was one of those people that no one could ever believe would step out of line.”
After watching him play, the Peruvian poet Juan Parra del Riego penned this glowing tribute to Gradin: “An arrow! A viper! A bell! A banner! Gradin: a blue and green bullet! Gradin: an elusive balloon! A billiard player right behind the ball as it rebounds from head to head and flies off... and a soaring Discobolus... you leave one, two, three, seven players trailing in your wake.”
One hundred years on from the first Copa America, the great Isabelino Gradin remains a key figure in South American football, a player who defined an age and who, albeit unwittingly, changed the face of the game forever.
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One benefit of this forum is educational exchange. One downside to the history of transhipment of human cargo is that the acquisition of European names does not readily allow us to distinguish people of African descent by name.
Investigate the names Isabelino Gradin and Juan Delgado. There would be no Pele without them. And these fellas date back decades before the 50s and 60s. Even in the interval there are other black ballers that light up de place in South America. It's a history that's out there partner. Serious thing.
Well done to FIFA.
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Just read up on Gradin. Wow!!
he was a big deal. Surprised, he didn't go to the Olympics.
VB