Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: truetrini on July 21, 2009, 10:20:21 PM
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This man is a damn liar trying to cause a race war in T&T!
He said that the POS general hospital was practicing ethnic cleansing, so I say "ways they killing off indian patients or what?" read de man comments is racial discrimination he claimed and say that they force out 13 indian doctors and then when yuh read de list 3 doctors NOT indian, 6 take voluntary (VOLUNTARY>>like in dem volunteer to go home) some say dey leave and others did not get dey contracts renewed!
LIES!
Then yesterday he say is not racial discrimination is political discrimination..that if yuh he have ah PNM party card is gone yuh gone....well most ah de damn doctors is indians, dr. gopeesingh so when some going bet is more indians as they make up the LARGEST demographic!
Now he come with this!
Dr Tim: PM wants to cover up racial bias
Anika Gumbs-Sandiford
Published: 22 Jul 2009
Anika Gumbs-Sandiford
Caroni East MP Dr Tim Gopeesingh has warned Prime Minister Patrick Manning that he is treading on dangerous grounds by wanting to cover up racial discrimination in the Public Service. Gopeesingh who was speaking at the party’s weekly Monday night meeting in San Francique said records showed that East Indians were being discriminated against in the country.
“The Prime Minster is covering up crucial issues,” Gopeesingh said. “We are no longer going to tolerate this at the Port-of-Spain General Hospital and I am not going to bow to pressure…I am not going to withdraw my comments.” He said members of the medical fraternity were forced to remain quiet otherwise they would have been disciplined. Gopeesingh said that while at the Port-of-Spain hospital several doctors were forced to accept the Voluntary Separation Enhancement Package, others did not have their contract renewed.
He further challenged the Government to name one East Indian person who held the position of a permanent secretary. “There is not one permanent secretary or deputy permanent who is of East Indian descent…I want them to name one,” Gopeesingh said. Referring to the awarding of scholarships, Goopeesingh said out of a total of 178 scholarships, only 16 East Indians were chosen. He said this was an example of racial discrimination.
Well more lies from Gopeesingh again!
look at this:
http://www.moe.gov.tt/Docs/O&A%20SCHOLARSHIPS_2008.pdf
MOST of de people who get government scholarships are indians.
This man is a dog lapping up Panday balls!
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I'm no victim of ethnic cleansing
Naraynsingh:
Camille Bethel cbethel@trinidadexpress.com
Wednesday, July 22nd 2009
wasn't at POS hospital: Prof Vijay Naraynsingh
Vascular surgeon Prof Vijay Naraynsingh said yesterday he was not one of Dr Tim Gopeesingh's alleged victims of ethnic cleansing.
And the Trinidad and Tobago Medical Association (TTMA) described as embarrassing Gopeesingh's claims that East Indians were victims of ethnic cleansing at the Port of Spain General Hospital.
Gopeesingh last Saturday named 14 doctors whom he claimed were victims of ethnic discrimination. Several of those doctors have since denied being victims of racism.
On Monday, Gopeesingh named more doctors as being victims, including Dr Naraynsingh.
But Naraynsingh said he had not worked at the Port of Spain Hospital so "I can't speak for what has happened there for the last five years because I have not been there. But what I do know is that all of the eye and urology surgery being done there are not being done by specialist surgeons."
This, he said, should be a concern not just for medical practitioners but for the public, because both eye and urology surgery are highly technical.
Naraynsingh said, "What is worrisome is that people are being managed by doctors who are less than qualified. And most times it is the poor and elderly people going to have these procedures done."
Meanwhile, Dr Frank Ramlackhansingh, public relations officer of TTMA, which has a membership of over 800 doctors, said Gopeesingh had embarrassed the whole medical profession when he listed the names of the doctors because "he made it sound so racist".
Ramlackhansingh said, "He has brought the whole profession into disrepute, because he made it sound as though Indian doctors treat African patients differently and this is not true.
"As professionals, we treat all of our patients the same, there is no racial bias. We look after all patients in the same way regardless of their race or their background. It doesn't matter if they are from Laventille or any other part of the country, we look at the whole person."
He added, "We do not think there is any bias in the hiring practices at the North West Regional Health Authority (NWRHA)."
Ramlackansingh also said some of the names on Gopeesingh's list are people who left the NWRHA voluntarily or had reached retirement age.
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Doc: Dispute with medical chief of staff caused me to leave
Aabida Allaham
Wednesday, July 22nd 2009
THE CLAIM of ethnic cleansing made by Caroni East MP Dr Tim Gopeesingh seems to be slowly eroded as doctors he claimed were victims are slowly coming forward to challenge his statement.
One such doctor, ophthalmologist Shivanand Ramdeen, says he was never a victim of ethnic cleansing by the administration at the Port of Spain General Hospital even though Gopeesingh listed him as one on Monday.
In fact, Ramdeen told the Express that before he left the hospital back in 2006, he was always treated fairly by the former management team.
Ramdeen, who is currently a consultant at the Sangre Grande Hospital, said while the reasons for him leaving the hospital were personal, he wanted to make it clear that it had nothing to do with his ethnicity.
"I had a personal dispute with the then medical chief of staff (name called) who decided to give the position of ophthalmology consultant to a junior member of staff ... a woman who was an Indian just as I am," he insisted.
On Monday, however, Gopeesingh, who is standing by his statements, was reported as saying that the doctors who have come forward do not know for certain whether there was ethnic cleansing at the hospital. He said since they left, the vacancies were not filled.
These allegations, however, were categorically denied by the North West Regional Health Authority (NWRHA), who stated that of the 14 names Gopeesingh referred to, eight took VSEP and were offered re-employment but refused, two were members of UWI-based staff at the hospital and resigned and three resigned voluntarily, taking up employment elsewhere.
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This typical UNC strategy in times of party crisis, stir up racial ill will.
Jack Warner making a serious end run at the UNC status quo so in effect they circling the wagons and using the only weapon in their armoury, nasty racial inciting bull shyte talk.
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This typical UNC strategy in times of party crisis, stir up racial ill will.
Jack Warner making a serious end run at the UNC status quo so in effect they circling the wagons and using the only weapon in their armoury, nasty racial inciting bull shyte talk.
I thought the same thing. To me its a ploy to remind "the base" that Jack is of African descent....and it already working, never mind the fact that is he and he African descent money is the reason why they are at least back in Parliamnent...
Hear nah these people never cease to amaze me.....they are like John Mc Cain in the latter part of the US election last year when he was down in polls but kept claiming "we have them right where we want them!!!" in other words he was happy to be in 2nd position....the UNC is the same thing....they happy to be in opposition forever and ever....ssssttteeeuuuppsss!!!!
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This typical UNC strategy in times of party crisis, stir up racial ill will.
Jack Warner making a serious end run at the UNC status quo so in effect they circling the wagons and using the only weapon in their armoury, nasty racial inciting bull shyte talk.
I thought the same thing. To me its a ploy to remind "the base" that Jack is of African descent....and it already working, never mind the fact that is he and he African descent money is the reason why they are at least back in Parliamnent...
Hear nah these people never cease to amaze me.....they are like John Mc Cain in the latter part of the US election last year when he was down in polls but kept claiming "we have them right where we want them!!!" in other words he was happy to be in 2nd position....the UNC is the same thing....they happy to be in opposition forever and ever....ssssttteeeuuuppsss!!!!
I thought was just me. And ITEC courtesy mr. devenath maharaj (wha party he with again? )......jumping in de fray too. Dis go end up being one big mess.
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I hope dey prove it dat way they go get dey refugee status and dey could go Canada and leave we d hell in TNT.
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I now know how white people feel when Al shaprton and all the other "reverends" open dey greedy hole.
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I now know how white people feel when Al shaprton and all the other "reverends" open dey greedy hole.
at least 9 out of 10 times Al Sharpton has a damn point!
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I now know how white people feel when Al sharpton and all the other "reverends" open dey greedy hole.
at least 9 out of 10 times Al Sharpton has a damn point!
How bout we discuss this further with that "phanton" brandy you keep promising me at Miami carnival?
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
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I now know how white people feel when Al shaprton and all the other "reverends" open dey greedy hole.
at least 9 out of 10 times Al Sharpton has a damn point!
And the other 1 out of 10 time????? :-X
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
Boss,
Don't bracket a whole subsection of our country because some jokers who happen to be of the same ethnicity pushing race talk to an extreme. They do NOT speak for the informed populace, only the ones who excel within the context of tribal politics.
While there may not be an overt conspiracy against "indians" as claimed by the collective jackasses, there exists prejudice across the board (ALL races) in Trinidad and Tobago. Its not hard to come on this board and find posts that border on ridiculous. Nothing is ever said because we have this illusion that we are a nation of great tolerance and a prevailing attitude of "if you cyah take picong, you eh no trini". One consequence of all of this is that we never have honest discussions bout race matters in T&T.
Something else to note, people of all races have succeeded in spite of perceived discrimination. Success is not a measuring stick for whether discrimination exists or not. But I digress.
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The good thing about this though are the doctors who came out and put the FACTS on the line. To me they and the real HEROES is this commesse.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
Boss,
Don't bracket a whole subsection of our country because some jokers who happen to be of the same ethnicity pushing race talk to an extreme. They do NOT speak for the informed populace, only the ones who excel within the context of tribal politics.
While there may not be an overt conspiracy against "indians" as claimed by the collective jackasses, there exists prejudice across the board (ALL races) in Trinidad and Tobago. Its not hard to come on this board and find posts that border on ridiculous. Nothing is ever said because we have this illusion that we are a nation of great tolerance and a prevailing attitude of "if you cyah take picong, you eh no trini". One consequence of all of this is that we never have honest discussions bout race matters in T&T.
Something else to note, people of all races have succeeded in spite of perceived discrimination. Success is not a measuring stick for whether discrimination exists or not. But I digress.
Good post. Trinbagonians don't organize their lives around hatred and ethnic difference but very subtle discrimination exists. Case in point: "If you cyah take picong you eh no Trini". I'm almost certain "taking and giving picong" is a African derived cultural trait that we transposed onto part of the core of what it apparently means to be "Trini".
In fact most of what we consider Trini is based on Afro-European culture, with a smattering of superficial Indian references. We don’t even come close to incorporating the stories, the great texts or even the ayurvedas of India into mainstream culture. The closest I can recall to authentic Indian spiritulism being brought into the mainstream in and of itself was when Lord Shorty sang Om Shanti in ‘78.
I’m not excusing Gopeesingh and his nonsense. But discrimination is always invisible to those who form the cultural majority. Gopeesingh might be talking shyte, but if we smart we will reject him but take a long hard look at ourselves and how we do we business.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
what fackery you spewing here? what does success have to do with this? If a man/woman work hard and attain success that have nothing to do with being discriminated against.
get the f**k up and get!
too much emphasis and blame is put on "history" rather than making a "future" for oneself.
the very least we as a democratic and supposed country where "EVERY creed and race find an equal place", everyone should be heard and not chastised when someone speaks out!
political gain (wag the facking dog) ? probably... but lets give it a chance to unfold and see if there's some truth to it. No dismiss as Indians kerry in orn.. and they have no right cause they "supposedly" more successful.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
what fackery you spewing here? what does success have to do with this? If a man/woman work hard and attain success that have nothing to do with being discriminated against.
did i say that?...no i didnt....also my statement applies to trinidad and a world view such as india vs. africa.
but if you really look at the situation in trinidad, typically indian sown a lot of businesses compared to people of african descent, i could be wrong and it owuld nice if someone has facts to prove or disprove my claim.
also to correct my statement about indians i am referring to tim and sat maharaj and those idiots so i am wrong for saying indians, i didnt mean to group everyone but you all know indians complain more (or at least do it in the media more than anybody else)
finally before any asshole say i doh like indian or african please note that my parents are of african and indian descent so i understand the views of both races and their opinions of each other
i agree that success is not an absolute measure of discrimination but discrimination is a factor in success...ask some black people who work in the corporate world and cant get promoted while some of their white peers only lime at the watre cooler, talk about golf and move up the corporate ladder.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
what fackery you spewing here? what does success have to do with this? If a man/woman work hard and attain success that have nothing to do with being discriminated against.
still don't see your point. indian have more business... what does that have to do with anything. was it handed to them? this is what I'm trying to understand about your posts.
did i say that?...no i didnt....also my statement applies to trinidad and a world view such as india vs. africa.
but if you really look at the situation in trinidad, typically indian sown a lot of businesses compared to people of african descent, i could be wrong and it owuld nice if someone has facts to prove or disprove my claim.
also to correct my statement about indians i am referring to tim and sat maharaj and those idiots so i am wrong for saying indians, i didnt mean to group everyone but you all know indians complain more (or at least do it in the media more than anybody else)
finally before any asshole say i doh like indian or african please note that my parents are of african and indian descent so i understand the views of both races and their opinions of each other
i agree that success is not an absolute measure of discrimination but discrimination is a factor in success...ask some black people who work in the corporate world and cant get promoted while some of their white peers only lime at the watre cooler, talk about golf and move up the corporate ladder.
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my point is not that it was handed to them, my point is they had the opportunity, they work hard and they got it just like if a person of african descent work hard, they will own a business.
so the bottom line is there is no discrimination although sat maharaj and crew always crying that indians have it real hard in trinidad.
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my point is not that it was handed to them, my point is they had the opportunity, they work hard and they got it just like if a person of african descent work hard, they will own a business.
so the bottom line is there is no discrimination although sat maharaj and crew always crying that indians have it real hard in trinidad.
doh get me wrong (no animosity intended), all I'm trying to do was understand where you coming from. I still doh see the relation to being successful and racism in your post. I fully agree with you on Sat and the next jackass they call panday.
Here's what I don't understand with we as a people. It seems that we can never make a comment that relates to us as a nation (negro and indian) without having to follow it up by saying we're half indian or half negro or we have chinee in we. it's as if we have to justify our comments before a label is placed on us. when the day comes and we can make a statement as trinibagonians and not have to justify our point by stating our race make-up, then we can truly say we are one people.
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All yuh think TT bad. Check out Malaysia. Article from the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8165746.stm
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yes, dem setah nasty people want to incite racial war. dem need to drop off de planet. >:( :cursing:
outside wid Panday and he little imps dem.
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Gopeesingh: I was referring to silent cleansing
Malissa Lara
Published: 26 Jul 2009
Malissa Lara
The term “ethnic cleansing,” which was used by Caroni East MP Dr Tim Gopeesingh in Parliament on July 17, has many meanings. When explored, the term is sometimes used to describe persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a local majority, to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory. However, Dr Gopeesingh said he was referring to “silent ethnic cleansing.” In a telephone interview on Friday, Dr Gopeesingh said the main issue in Trinidad and Tobago was the existence of massive political discrimination, which was pervading the wider society.
Claims have been made that he misled the House, on July 17, when he said he was informed there was “ethnic cleansing” in T&T. Thus, a motion has been called for Dr Gopeesingh to be referred to the Privileges Committee. Dr Gopeesingh said he felt strongly about widespread discrimination, and used the 1933 German law that restricted Jews from certain aspects of life as an example. He said, “Over the last year, many doctors indicated to me that I was their only voice in Parliament.”
He said he could never be a racist, because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians and the majority of his patients were non-Indians. When asked if there was racial discrimination against Africans, he replied, “There is a lot of reverse discrimination as well, and anybody who discriminates is guilty of a crime. “No form of discriminatory practices should be tolerated.” He said the issue of racial discrimination should be discussed at a national level.
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see what I mean.."because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians" :cursing:
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see what I mean.."because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians" :cursing:
Dat mean he eh a racist but let 1 ah dem friends did check he daughter I wonder how friendly he would have been.
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discrimination is always invisible to those who form the cultural majority.
This here is what real people doh realise. Especially when that cultural majority is considered the "norm".
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see what I mean.."because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians" :cursing:
Dat mean he eh a racist but let 1 ah dem friends did check he daughter I wonder how friendly he would have been.
Daiz how yuh does find them out. They best friend is always the opposite race, but let their daughter bring one home and see how that go down.
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see what I mean.."because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians" :cursing:
Dat mean he eh a racist but let 1 ah dem friends did check he daughter I wonder how friendly he would have been.
well I'll have to agree with him on that point, as I cannot support inter racial marriages or rendezvous. I'm a firm believer of keeping the gene pool pure.
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see what I mean.."because his best friends were Afro-Trinidadians" :cursing:
Dat mean he eh a racist but let 1 ah dem friends did check he daughter I wonder how friendly he would have been.
well I'll have to agree with him on that point, as I cannot support inter racial marriages or rendezvous. I'm a firm believer of keeping the gene pool pure.
hahahahaha easy dey, arrow might get vex with you.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
Boss,
Don't bracket a whole subsection of our country because some jokers who happen to be of the same ethnicity pushing race talk to an extreme. They do NOT speak for the informed populace, only the ones who excel within the context of tribal politics.
While there may not be an overt conspiracy against "indians" as claimed by the collective jackasses, there exists prejudice across the board (ALL races) in Trinidad and Tobago. Its not hard to come on this board and find posts that border on ridiculous. Nothing is ever said because we have this illusion that we are a nation of great tolerance and a prevailing attitude of "if you cyah take picong, you eh no trini". One consequence of all of this is that we never have honest discussions bout race matters in T&T.
Something else to note, people of all races have succeeded in spite of perceived discrimination. Success is not a measuring stick for whether discrimination exists or not. But I digress.
Good post. Trinbagonians don't organize their lives around hatred and ethnic difference but very subtle discrimination exists. Case in point: "If you cyah take picong you eh no Trini". I'm almost certain "taking and giving picong" is a African derived cultural trait that we transposed onto part of the core of what it apparently means to be "Trini".
In fact most of what we consider Trini is based on Afro-European culture, with a smattering of superficial Indian references. We don’t even come close to incorporating the stories, the great texts or even the ayurvedas of India into mainstream culture. The closest I can recall to authentic Indian spiritulism being brought into the mainstream in and of itself was when Lord Shorty sang Om Shanti in ‘78.
I’m not excusing Gopeesingh and his nonsense. But discrimination is always invisible to those who form the cultural majority. Gopeesingh might be talking shyte, but if we smart we will reject him but take a long hard look at ourselves and how we do we business.
No Name and Zando, kudos for injecting thoughtful nuance into the discussion. That stated, leh me quibble lil bit.
As far as the honest discussions on race: I believe contributors here (and on the Trini street) project honesty in their discourse on race ... it may not always be seemingly informed, particularly enlightened, liberal or to our liking, buh I sense it's 'honest' b/c it's 'experiential' and 'perceived', and dispensed in a stream of consciousness way.
If we want to arrive at a more penetrating platform demonstrating incisive honesty rooted in so-called 21st century values and norms, perhaps then we should change 'our' leaders and re-orient the view on the street (top to bottom reform?) AND revisit the class fracture that's the other denied axis of "our nation of great tolerance" (bottom to top reform?)
Buh really, our "superficial Indian references" likely stem from our superficial interactions. We're all willing participants in a national Jedi mind trick that's self-serving. Want to put this to the test? Try explaining who we are to non-Trinis (or kids). What pisses off a bulky cross-section of the populace is the political "jokers" who refuse to buy into the 'trick' for their self-serving reasons. So, lemme ask ah question: why does the Jedi mind trick operate on the basis of African and Indian exclusively?
+++
Zando, why ah gehhin de feeling 'closest' is almost a proxy for 'first'? Or even 'only' :devil:
Anyway, I think closest is debatable, but your point is taken. I would prefer to refer to Shorty's contributions as a point of departure because we can't ignore the fact that the early 70s reflect only a brief period in our self-determination/post-independence experiment. [We really looking at '73/'74 rather than '78]. It wasn't that much earlier that the society was ordered (still is to degree) by covenants imposed on us. As I understand it, the sort of incorporation into a meshed artistic fabric you refer to would have been difficult prior to that. If we're honest, it's been challenging subsequently.
In my view, there is always a fear of cultural approximation and cultural insensitivity when the 'messenger' crosses boundaries. We've had more than a couple episodes like that over the years. However, when the 'messenger' brings the apparent legitimacy of coming from within a tradition (versus not) .. while the charges persist as internal debate and at lower intensity, ultimately they broaden inclusiveness and foster cultural dialogue (say, as over the years tassa has spoken with increasing volume and has 'married' other manifestations).
So, what's the predicate for an infusion of an "authentic Indian spiritualism"? Invitation, collaboration or imposition? While I'm not insensitive to this charge of a cultural tyranny of the majority, you haven't placed an onus on the culturally aggrieved or oppressed in helping bridge the gap ... neither have you addressed whether they wanted to affect the dominant idiom OR merely wanted a kind of parallel, equal platform. (What distinguished Mastana Bahar (TV) from Geetanjali (radio)?
I would caution that historically both idioms co-existed by thriving on different 'things'. It seems one looked inwards (maybe even demarcated boundaries) and the other thrived on broader public expression (thus co-opting the space that was? available to the 'other'), and hence found it easier to aggrandize its position with the assistance and democratization of social elites (Minshall et al).
(Perhaps you could contend 'public expression' should read 'public acceptance' ... I could vibes that). Whose responsibility is it for expanding the motif? Can it be done secularly without religious outrage and political consequences? I think you guys have touched on the challenge going fwd.
Obviously, this ent nutten definitive ... just adding variables.
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I doh understand why indians always claiming discrimination when their race/group is generally more successful than people of african descent.
Boss,
Don't bracket a whole subsection of our country because some jokers who happen to be of the same ethnicity pushing race talk to an extreme. They do NOT speak for the informed populace, only the ones who excel within the context of tribal politics.
While there may not be an overt conspiracy against "indians" as claimed by the collective jackasses, there exists prejudice across the board (ALL races) in Trinidad and Tobago. Its not hard to come on this board and find posts that border on ridiculous. Nothing is ever said because we have this illusion that we are a nation of great tolerance and a prevailing attitude of "if you cyah take picong, you eh no trini". One consequence of all of this is that we never have honest discussions bout race matters in T&T.
Something else to note, people of all races have succeeded in spite of perceived discrimination. Success is not a measuring stick for whether discrimination exists or not. But I digress.
Good post. Trinbagonians don't organize their lives around hatred and ethnic difference but very subtle discrimination exists. Case in point: "If you cyah take picong you eh no Trini". I'm almost certain "taking and giving picong" is a African derived cultural trait that we transposed onto part of the core of what it apparently means to be "Trini".
In fact most of what we consider Trini is based on Afro-European culture, with a smattering of superficial Indian references. We don’t even come close to incorporating the stories, the great texts or even the ayurvedas of India into mainstream culture. The closest I can recall to authentic Indian spiritulism being brought into the mainstream in and of itself was when Lord Shorty sang Om Shanti in ‘78.
I’m not excusing Gopeesingh and his nonsense. But discrimination is always invisible to those who form the cultural majority. Gopeesingh might be talking shyte, but if we smart we will reject him but take a long hard look at ourselves and how we do we business.
No Name and Zando, kudos for injecting thoughtful nuance into the discussion. That stated, leh me quibble lil bit.
As far as the honest discussions on race: I believe contributors here (and on the Trini street) project honesty in their discourse on race ... it may not always be seemingly informed, particularly enlightened, liberal or to our liking, buh I sense it's 'honest' b/c it's 'experiential' and 'perceived', and dispensed in a stream of consciousness way.
If we want to arrive at a more penetrating platform demonstrating incisive honesty rooted in so-called 21st century values and norms, perhaps then we should change 'our' leaders and re-orient the view on the street (top to bottom reform?) AND revisit the class fracture that's the other denied axis of "our nation of great tolerance" (bottom to top reform?)
Buh really, our "superficial Indian references" likely stem from our superficial interactions. We're all willing participants in a national Jedi mind trick that's self-serving. Want to put this to the test? Try explaining who we are to non-Trinis (or kids). What pisses off a bulky cross-section of the populace is the political "jokers" who refuse to buy into the 'trick' for their self-serving reasons. So, lemme ask ah question: why does the Jedi mind trick operate on the basis of African and Indian exclusively?
+++
Zando, why ah gehhin de feeling 'closest' is almost a proxy for 'first'? Or even 'only' :devil:
Anyway, I think closest is debatable, but your point is taken. I would prefer to refer to Shorty's contributions as a point of departure because we can't ignore the fact that the early 70s reflect only a brief period in our self-determination/post-independence experiment. [We really looking at '73/'74 rather than '78]. It wasn't that much earlier that the society was ordered (still is to degree) by covenants imposed on us. As I understand it, the sort of incorporation into a meshed artistic fabric you refer to would have been difficult prior to that. If we're honest, it's been challenging subsequently.
In my view, there is always a fear of cultural approximation and cultural insensitivity when the 'messenger' crosses boundaries. We've had more than a couple episodes like that over the years. However, when the 'messenger' brings the apparent legitimacy of coming from within a tradition (versus not) .. while the charges persist as internal debate and at lower intensity, ultimately they broaden inclusiveness and foster cultural dialogue (say, as over the years tassa has spoken with increasing volume and has 'married' other manifestations).
So, what's the predicate for an infusion of an "authentic Indian spiritualism"? Invitation, collaboration or imposition? While I'm not insensitive to this charge of a cultural tyranny of the majority, you haven't placed an onus on the culturally aggrieved or oppressed in helping bridge the gap ... neither have you addressed whether they wanted to affect the dominant idiom OR merely wanted a kind of parallel, equal platform. (What distinguished Mastana Bahar (TV) from Geetanjali (radio)?
I would caution that historically both idioms co-existed by thriving on different 'things'. It seems one looked inwards (maybe even demarcated boundaries) and the other thrived on broader public expression (thus co-opting the space that was? available to the 'other'), and hence found it easier to aggrandize its position with the assistance and democratization of social elites (Minshall et al).
(Perhaps you could contend 'public expression' should read 'public acceptance' ... I could vibes that). Whose responsibility is it for expanding the motif? Can it be done secularly without religious outrage and political consequences? I think you guys have touched on the challenge going fwd.
Obviously, this ent nutten definitive ... just adding variables.
Assylum
The predicate for lasting infusion of authenticity is most definitely imposition. The trouble with that is that heavy handed imposition will meet with strong secular opposition. That kind of change requires an iron clad vision and committment on the part of our politicans. Another option is self-imposition, AKA adaptation. As in necessity is the mother of invention. And that kind of change cannot occur in the current context.
Speaking in practical terms, culture is devoid of empricial value. But you can find a measure of predictability of the consequences of cultural practices by appending indicators onto cultural norms using a common reference point. If the dharma of a man in a particular culture is sharing intimacy with only one woman, and the dharma of man in another is sexual conquest, a measure of cultural value can be approximated by general social outcomes, i.e. two-parent families or single parent families, incarceration rates, educational achievement etc.
A quick glance at such indicators might support the argument that the ‘Indian’ model in T&T and elsewhere has proven superior in building wealth and community than the ‘African’ model. The state of the Indian diaspora is far from perfect, but it is far better than the sorry state in which black communities find themselves today.
A case in point is HIV in Africa. Gender dynamics and a healthy serving of male entitlement is directly responsible for pushing that virus across the continent. With respect to T&T, the powers that be would do well to start by studying the link between cultural practices and sexual relations that make Indian people or Hindus/Muslims (however you want to frame it) less inclined to contribute to the epidemic of fatherless, rudderless children running amok in T&T
Anyway the culturally aggrieved have surpassed the culturally privaledged, so the problem might just solve itself.
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Anyway the culturally aggrieved have surpassed the culturally privaledged, so the problem might just solve itself.
Don't tell Bas.
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Anyway the culturally aggrieved have surpassed the culturally privaledged, so the problem might just solve itself.
Don't tell Bas.
Where $$$ goes cultural imperialism is sure to follow. Bas might be the least of our worries. The elite of tommorow coming out of the religious schools of today. How accomodating will they be?
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Anyway the culturally aggrieved have surpassed the culturally privaledged, so the problem might just solve itself.
Don't tell Bas.
Where $$$ goes cultural imperialism is sure to follow. Bas might be the least of our worries. The elite of tommorow coming out of the religious schools of today. How accomodating will they be?
You disagree that the trend is more secular than religious?
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Anyway the culturally aggrieved have surpassed the culturally privaledged, so the problem might just solve itself.
Don't tell Bas.
Where $$$ goes cultural imperialism is sure to follow. Bas might be the least of our worries. The elite of tommorow coming out of the religious schools of today. How accomodating will they be?
You disagree that the trend is more secular than religious?
Not really sure. Sometimes its hard to tell them apart. The politics of the Indian community has been relatively mild, but there is always a Sat waiting in the wings.