Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jumbie on December 12, 2008, 11:50:29 PM
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have we replaced humans with beasts? Something Must be done!
GIRL, 7, SHOT DEAD
(http://www.trinidadexpress.com/shared/images/2008/12/13/n1.jpg)
A seven-year-old girl who told her parents she did not feel like going to school, because it was the last day of the term, was shot dead when two gunmen stormed her cousin's home yesterday.
She was at her school's Christmas party on Thursday and was told it was all right to remain home yesterday, a relative said. It proved to be a fatal decision.
Little Abigail Norman, of King Street, Penal, was shot in her neck when the gunmen randomly opened fire, then started asking questions. They asked about the whereabouts of a man who lived in the area.
"'Keston, where are you? We looking for you'," was one of the questions Abigail's uncle, Robert Neverson, said the men asked.
Abigail slumped to the ground at the entrance to the front door and died.
Her cousin, Patrice Alexis, 21, who is eight months pregnant, was shot on her right arm. She was being treated at the San Fernanado General Hospital last night.
A relative who requested anonymity said: "I was cleaning the ceiling and Abby came outside and told me that she was going across to play with her cousin, and just before she left I gave her a hug and a tap on the buttocks and told her to be careful and that was the last time I saw her alive."
Four other people who were in the house escaped unhurt.
Abigail, a Standard One pupil of the Penal Presbyterian Primary School, lived with her parents, Mark Norman, 31, a Ministry of Works employee, and her mother, Millie Norman, 31, a nurse at the San Fernando General Hospital. They were too distraught to speak yesterday. They live opposite Alexis.
Neverson, 36, said: "Around 12.10 p.m. someone called me and told me that two men went into the Alexis house and started firing shots inside the house."
He said the men did not wear masks.
Neverson said, "Abby had her Christmas party in school yesterday (Thursday) and she told her parents that she was not feeling like going to school today."
Neverson said the other people who were in the house when the men started shooting ran to safety.
The gunmen escaped in nearby bushes, he said. The girl's killing pushed the toll to 526 for the year.
The Homicide Bureau is continuing investigations.
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526
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That is just plain ridiculous... criminals getting more and more brazen and the innocent continue to die.
Sad.
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It's mind boggling. Blame is flying like spit from an angry toothless vagrant but no solutions seems to be working.
RIP little one...
For the ex-pats...serious question. Are you afraid of going home at all? Per capita, is it worse than were you are?
For those at home. If you could leave, would you? To go where?
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It's mind boggling. Blame is flying like spit from an angry toothless vagrant but no solutions seems to be working.
RIP little one...
For the ex-pats...serious question. Are you afraid of going home at all? Per capita, is it worse than were you are?
For those at home. If you could leave, would you? To go where?
Good qus Queen, left home in 93 and yes it has gotten significantly worse since then. Not afraid of going home per se, growing up in Barataria/Morvant and environs I was always on my "p"s and "q"s wherever I thread but definitely have an increasing level of viligance when I return. Sad sad situation...
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... where de geriatric flying squaddie dem? ent is either dem or my death squad?
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*sigh* I am officially numb....RIP little one....
NEXT!!
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real sad. but God go deal wid dem criminal and dem. dey judgement comin HARD!!!
to answer yuh question Queen, i live morvant, an i as a young person i cyah see myself leavin trinidad now or in d near future. muh navel string bury toooo deep.
bless!!
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527
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527
Oh lord somebody esle dead today??......*sigh*
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real sad. but God go deal wid dem criminal and dem. dey judgement comin HARD!!!
to answer yuh question Queen, i live morvant, an i as a young person i cyah see myself leavin trinidad now or in d near future. muh navel string bury toooo deep.
bless!!
As a person abroad I feel if I come back T&T there is a good chance I will get my navel string buried.
The commissioner of Police and his immediate staff advisors should take it upon themselves to PERSONALLY see to it that these child murderers are brought to justice. OR just resign because to oversee this mess means they are surely part of the problem
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*sigh*
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161413386 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161413386)
RIP yute....NEXT!!...
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real sad. but God go deal wid dem criminal and dem. dey judgement comin HARD!!!
to answer yuh question Queen, i live morvant, an i as a young person i cyah see myself leavin trinidad now or in d near future. muh navel string bury toooo deep.
bless!!
As a person abroad I feel if I come back T&T there is a good chance I will get my navel string buried.
The commissioner of Police and his immediate staff advisors should take it upon themselves to PERSONALLY see to it that these child murderers are brought to justice. OR just resign because to oversee this mess means they are surely part of the problem
Bringing them to justice is one thing, how do they prevent the callousness and recklessness inhabiting the hearts of these criminals?
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Are body bags made locally or are they imported?
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527
Oh lord somebody esle dead today??......*sigh*
yuh should be surprised if ah day pass with no incidents.
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read de express this mornin ah 14 year old boy get stab by six fellas.just tryin to pick up fuh ah friend.
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real sad. but God go deal wid dem criminal and dem. dey judgement comin HARD!!!
to answer yuh question Queen, i live morvant, an i as a young person i cyah see myself leavin trinidad now or in d near future. muh navel string bury toooo deep.
bless!!
As a person abroad I feel if I come back T&T there is a good chance I will get my navel string buried.
The commissioner of Police and his immediate staff advisors should take it upon themselves to PERSONALLY see to it that these child murderers are brought to justice. OR just resign because to oversee this mess means they are surely part of the problem
me aint go call dem child murderers per se is jus dat it hav a good bit ah ppl out here who seemingly heartless an demonic...allyuh remember wen d lil girl beat up ah toddler jet-black an blue an wen dey axe she why she do dat she jus shrug she shoulders?..or dem two yute dat interfere wit sean luke...is jus a general criminal mentality dat jus pervades trinidad on all levels an all ages...u kno how much times i nearly duss' out some primary school yutes...i doh kno wa goin on in t'dad...cya b blamin police and gov 4 it entirely...one ass cya clap
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Is Manning fault 6 peeps jump out ah car and kill a yute and hospitalize he friend.
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Is Manning fault 6 peeps jump out ah car and kill a yute and hospitalize he friend.
Some will say that it is his fault. Others will say that it is the fault of the police.
But the truth is its the fault of the perps.
What is most disconcerting however, is the lack of ability by the police and those commissioned to protect and serve to apprehend these criminals and get successful convictions!
Why are so many crimes unsolved? Why are so many criminals on the loose?
These same sickos will offend again and again if they are not swift caught, tried and punished.
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de 'fault' is that they feel dey could do so ... and dat a climate has been created where ppl feel de need to have ice pick at de ready ... wtf? ... that doh sit right wid me atall ... certain places, right after that pop off, dem same 6 woulda been corpses without moving as far as de next traffic light
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de 'fault' is that they feel dey could do so ... and dat a climate has been created where ppl feel de need to have ice pick at de ready ... wtf? ... that doh sit right wid me atall ... certain places, right after that pop off, dem same 6 woulda been corpses without moving as far as de next traffic light
Having ice pick at the ready has been the norm in T&T since de 80's at least. Feeling the need to use it...dat is the trouble!
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True dat and de 80s ice pick ...
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Is Manning fault 6 peeps jump out ah car and kill a yute and hospitalize he friend.
Some will say that it is his fault. Others will say that it is the fault of the police.
But the truth is its the fault of the perps.
What is most disconcerting however, is the lack of ability by the police and those commissioned to protect and serve to apprehend these criminals and get successful convictions!
Why are so many crimes unsolved? Why are so many criminals on the loose?
These same sickos will offend again and again if they are not swift caught, tried and punished.
thats because police trainin procedures haven't change much since the sixties ah dem man cyar take a good finger print, man does be boholding murder weapons woth dey bare hands.................. is as if they still dont grab the concept of chain of evidence, that is what it come down to. The few training opportunities that exist abroad are granted to old farts just about to go on pre retirement leave, u feel dem comin to teach anybody someting, the entire police service needs reinventing, dem men cyar ketch nobody unless they get a tip off.
u remember the bombings, the police commissioner and the minister decide to make a grand entrance with a copter and blow away all the evidence, den they ketch d man, and the idiots put d man on a plane back to isreal without properly interogating him, those thing were specialised low exposive devices, they were not so much designed to injure, but to scare and destablize.
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real sad. but God go deal wid dem criminal and dem. dey judgement comin HARD!!!
to answer yuh question Queen, i live morvant, an i as a young person i cyah see myself leavin trinidad now or in d near future. muh navel string bury toooo deep.
bless!!
As a person abroad I feel if I come back T&T there is a good chance I will get my navel string buried.
The commissioner of Police and his immediate staff advisors should take it upon themselves to PERSONALLY see to it that these child murderers are brought to justice. OR just resign because to oversee this mess means they are surely part of the problem
Bringing them to justice is one thing, how do they prevent the callousness and recklessness inhabiting the hearts of these criminals?
By hanging dey mudder c**t! What yuh want? To give them day-care and encourage them to "share".? What ina next man heart is not the issue here. We well past that point. What they DO is the business of the community AND the leaders. First things first. Bring they ass to justice FIRST then we could assign everybody therapist and counsellors for their inner child.
The community and leaders abdicating their responsibilities. These men murder a 7 year old child. Then again if nobody give a flying ass let them wallow in their own mess.
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So a dangling question here is ... why is there no heavy hand being applied?
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Zandolie, Asylumseeker.
I will answer both of you at the same time.
Police training methods while GREATLY improved in the very recent future are not being applied consistently.
There was a home invasion and a rape in T&T and when the guys from SAUTT got there, the duct tape used to bind the victim was under the boot of a police man. Additionally, at that scene, pics were being taken in black and white!
There has been much expense by the government and great energies exerted to train police right now, but the culture is one that needs changing, and it is, but too slowly for the good of the nation.
As for hanging the modder c**ts, well that is an option, but they have to b found guilty first. People are scared to testify, eyewitnesses say that they see nutten for fear of reprisals.
Even the police and prisons officers are scared, the news is replete with stories of them being shot at, their families targeted and there home shot at and fire bombed.
The callousness of the criminals is staggering. A heavy hand is being applied in my opinion, but not as a State Sanctioned objective.
It is my belief that a few policemen are shooting criminals and blaming their deaths on gang related issues. MY OPINION!
I don't think that criminals in T&T are given counseling etc. Come on now Zandolie, the jails are over crowded as it is, and conditions are very poor. Corrupt police and prison officers perpetuate a system that allow criminals to conduct criminal activities from behind bars. Steps are being taken to alleviate that situation, why now and not sooner is the real question.
The government changed legislation to give more power to the CoP etc. They have spent millions on improving the training, they have bought equipment etc.
They now need to change the culture of the law enforcement agencies to make any real impact on crime.
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NO WAY!
Security minister dismisses state of emergency suggestion
BY ERICA VIRTUE Observer writer virtuee@jamaicaobserver.com
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
National Security Minister Colonel Trevor MacMillan has responded with a flat no to a suggestion from Dr Peter Phillips that the Government should consider declaring a state of emergency to deal with Jamaica's spiralling crime rate.
"I cannot support a state of emergency at this time. In fact, I don't support a state of emergency for many reasons, which I do not want to go into at this time," MacMillan said yesterday in an interview with the Observer, a day after Phillips' view was aired on Radio Jamaica's weekly news review programme, That's A Wrap, hosted by Earl Moxam.
Phillips, who served as security minister during the previous administration, said that although he did not put to the Cabinet the idea of martial law during his tenure, it may be worth visiting by the current Government.
Phillips said he did not raise the issue to the then People's National Party (PNP) Government, as he believed there were residual resentments from the state of emergency declared in the 1970s by the then ruling PNP, which left a trail of abuses of citizens by the security forces.
He also said he did not think it would have been supported, given Jamaica's tourism-dependent economy.
Critics of the state of emergency say it was used by the PNP to crack down on Opposition politicians in order to win the 1976 general elections. However, the Government of the day argued that it was necessary to stem rampant violence.
Since then, intermittent calls have been made for martial law, especially when there is an increase in murders. However, no Government has so far yielded to the calls.
On Sunday, Dr Phillips, in seeking to justify his suggestion, said: "We are in an emergency situation and ought to therefore resort to the emergency powers that exist."
The possibility of a state of emergency being implemented only in the island's crime-ravaged communities was also raised on the programme, while yesterday, callers to radio talk shows signalled a willingness to give up some rights in order to stem the violence, which has so far resulted in 1,509 murders between January 1 and the end of November this year.
But MacMillan, who along with the Government has come under attack for failing to put a leash on crime, said the idea could not be supported, given the current state of affairs.
"For one, we don't have the number of security personnel that would be needed for the kind of co-ordinated effort that is needed in these communities," he said.
The police force establishment is currently just over 8,000, nearly 4,000 shy of what would be considered satisfactory. Added to that, repeated calls for a merger of the Jamaica Defence Force and the constabulary to increase numbers, have been rejected.
On Sunday's programme as well, Phillips, in response to the exodus of residents from Gravel Heights and Tredegar Park in St Catherine last week on the orders of gunmen, suggested that the Terrorism Prevention Act be amended to include atrocities committed by criminals against members of their communities.
"When you lock a young child and a family in a house and set it afire and ensure that they cannot escape, that is terror," said Phillips. "When you simply go through a community, in Hope Pastures for example, where you burn out five houses and people have to become refugees in their own land, that is terror."
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124 Murders in London for 2007 population 7.5 million
you see the problem in Trinidad ?
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Superoli, maybe we are uncivilized...or becoming so?
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We reverting to a basic social order because the rot at the core of the wider order was never addressed. A portion of our population historically forced to live as victims of unbridled captalism/mercantilism now ironically are willing particpants in closely related social constructs.
When history books still extolling the virtues of Walter Raleigh and the like, the modern world decrys drug dealers, killers and pirates. But the reality is they are one and the same. Simply separated by time and race.
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We reverting to a basic social order because the rot at the core of the wider order was never addressed. A portion of our population historically forced to live as victims of unbridled captalism/mercantilism now ironically are willing particpants in closely related social constructs.
When history books still extolling the virtues of Walter Raleigh and the like, the modern world decrys drug dealers, killers and pirates. But the reality is they are one and the same. Simply separated by time and race.
so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh? As a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward.
What is the basic social order? Survival of the fittest? Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs?
Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds. Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20 Yuh make me smile here boy.
anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!
If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.
Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?
If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?
In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.
How is that for a treatise?
And how does the government solve that issue?
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"so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh? As a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward."
And I can advise you that it is equally unwise to view history as a straight line. Raleigh was viewed as hero in England but as a criminal in Spain for among other things his role in the attack on Cadiz. Don't you think drug dealers, pirates etc. are viewed as heroes in their own communities and as rogues in the wider context? That Raleigh's activities had the sanction of the throne or that he was "learned" or even a nice guy makes not one bit of difference. So where did I revise his role in history, except to suggest modern parallels?
"What is the basic social order? Survival of the fittest? Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs? Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds. Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20 Yuh make me smile here boy."
Wey sah, is Maslow you try to drop on my my head so. :D We could debate that the futility of a pre WWII European derived universal theory of psychological behavior, but I see yuh protect yuhself by using "akin"
To understand the specifics of the social disintegration most visibly represented by criminal culture in T&T and the larger diaspora such that you could offer a prognosis let alone a diagnosis is a task well beyond me. But me eh have to rely on a dead academic to understand that criminal activity that increasingly regulates and restricts the movement and activity of the citizenry must be addressed before the state itself becomes compromised and breaks into segments not by the will of the people but for the benefit a few powerful people.
"anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!"
Really? Define family....mommy daddy and 1.7 children and cyat and dog? Or loose affiliations of fatherless/parentless children that rob and kill to keep themselves alive. Just because Boaz and Mead defined family as "so and so", doh make it so.
"If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.
Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?
If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?
In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.
How is that for a treatise?"
I very much agree.
"And how does the government solve that issue?"
Several options
1) Do nothing and let the situation continue with belief that socieites eventually get better, or that we should let God sort it out. Neo-Darwinism.
2) Adopt social and educational reform to break the cycle of violence. Problem is success has been limited.
3) Suspend civil liberties/constitutional rights to allow the state break the back of crime.
4) There is no solution because the global forces that mediate modern culture are stronger than the government or will power of the people of T&T. Just do whatever the West does.
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When history books still extolling the virtues of Walter Raleigh and the like, the modern world decrys drug dealers, killers and pirates. But the reality is they are one and the same. Simply separated by time and race.
Reminds me of Can't Blame the Youth by Peter Tosh
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LxxQ92rE3JI
You can’t blame the youth, you can’t fool the youth,
You can’t blame the youth of today, you can’t fool the youth.
You teach the youth to learn in school that cow jump over moon,
You teach the youth to learn in school that the dish run away with the spoon.
You can’t blame the youth (when they don’t learn), you can’t fool the youth,
You can’t blame the youth, you can’t fool the youth.
You teach the youth about Christopher Columbus,
And you said he was a very great man.
You teach the youth about Marco Polo,
And you said he was a very great man.
You teach the youth about the pirate Hawkins,
And you said he was a very great man.
You teach the youth about the pirate Morgan,
And you said he was a very great man.
Chorus
All these great men were doing is robbing, raping, kidnapping and killing,
So-called great men were doing is robbing, raping, kidnapping and killing.
Chorus
When every Christmas come, you buy the youth a pretty toy gun.
When every Christmas come, you buy the youth a fancy toy gun.
Chorus
What was hidden from the wise and prudent now revealed to the Babes and suckling.
What was hidden from the wise and prudent now revealed to the Babes and suckling.
Lord call upon the youth for He knows the youth’ll be strong,
Jah-Jah call upon the youth for He knows the youth’ll be strong.
Chorus
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"so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh? As a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward."
And I can advise you that it is equally unwise to view history as a straight line. Raleigh was viewed as hero in England but as a criminal in Spain for among other things his role in the attack on Cadiz. Don't you think drug dealers, pirates etc. are viewed as heroes in their own communities and as rogues in the wider context? That Raleigh's activities had the sanction of the throne or that he was "learned" or even a nice guy makes not one bit of difference. So where did I revise his role in history, except to suggest modern parallels?
"What is the basic social order? Survival of the fittest? Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs? Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds. Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20 Yuh make me smile here boy."
Wey sah, is Maslow you try to drop on my my head so. :D We could debate that the futility of a pre WWII European derived universal theory of psychological behavior, but I see yuh protect yuhself by using "akin"
To understand the specifics of the social disintegration most visibly represented by criminal culture in T&T and the larger diaspora such that you could offer a prognosis let alone a diagnosis is a task well beyond me. But me eh have to rely on a dead academic to understand that criminal activity that increasingly regulates and restricts the movement and activity of the citizenry must be addressed before the state itself becomes compromised and breaks into segments not by the will of the people but for the benefit a few powerful people.
"anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!"
Really? Define family....mommy daddy and 1.7 children and cyat and dog? Or loose affiliations of fatherless/parentless children that rob and kill to keep themselves alive. Just because Boaz and Mead defined family as "so and so", doh make it so.
"If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.
Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?
If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?
In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.
How is that for a treatise?"
I very much agree.
"And how does the government solve that issue?"
Several options
1) Do nothing and let the situation continue with belief that socieites eventually get better, or that we should let God sort it out. Neo-Darwinism.
2) Adopt social and educational reform to break the cycle of violence. Problem is success has been limited.
3) Suspend civil liberties/constitutional rights to allow the state break the back of crime.
4) There is no solution because the global forces that mediate modern culture are stronger than the government or will power of the people of T&T. Just do whatever the West does.
Boaz and Mead were correct, even if not in the strictest manner. Be it a single mother raising her children or the street thugs, family is family, and what it teaches children dteremines what they become as adults for the most part.
If the citizenery decides to be regulated by criminals, if they decide to be compromised, then that is a conscious decision made by that society.
Yes a conscious decision! I recently read where criminals were run down and apprehended by citizens. Were they not afraid of reprisals? Or were they fed up with criminals running shod thru their hood?
What about civil disobedience? People cry the government is not doing enough to protect them, yet they fail to stand up and testify in court. What about demonstrations and work stoppages?
What about sending clear messages to both the government and the criminals that enough is enough?
All the talk about education etc. is old talk really. back in the day when crime was very limited, the population was less educated than now, but we had more of a community, people had family.
You knew your neighbor's name. The village raised the child, teachers were respected.
Now there is a different kind of education I guess, globalization, internet, tv, movies all act as socializing factors. In all fairness High levels of crime may damage community spirit and result in less neighbourliness. People may simply want to ‘keep themselves to themselves’ for fear of harassment and crimes against them.
I remember reading the West Indian Primer and it told about shooting, and fun with a gun, we played cowboys and indians, gun shooting, cops and robbers and nearly everyone had a caps gun, yet we did not have easy access to real guns, and most importantly, we knew that it was all make believe, we were friends, and if we fought we made up soon afterward and the friendship seemed to have been strengthened because of our little skirmishes.
Nowadays if you look at a man the perceived wrong way, you could end up dead...is that a result of education or lack of it?
Maybe we need to go back to the days when we played with guns eh?
Trinidadians need to realize, overall, that what “is” isn’t necessarily what “ought to be”...that change is both possible and probable, under given conditions.
We must learn that “crime” is a “social construction” involving social forces (social structure) and human agency (choice)...and their relationship with and to each other.
I remember reading sociologist Zygmunt Bauman who argued that criminals steal status items in order to appear ‘normal’ within such a materialistic society, maybe you are right on that point.
as for your possible solutions in dealing with crime:
1. If we leave things the way they are, they will more than likely cause the situation to go into further decay, one can argue that negligence is what caused it to reach this stage thus far. And of course there is NO GOD to sort anything out!
2. Education is always a good thing, and it may help in keeping younger ones away from criminal activity in the fututre, BUT, the horse has already bolted from the barn, and dem old dogs eh interested in learning new tricks.
3. Suspending civil liberties is an option, albeit a dangerous one. remember the PM wanted a Constitutional Reform for an executive PM? lol Opening a can of worms, suppoe the leaders like the way we have limited rights and decide to keep it so? What then?
4. There are always solutions, well let me rephrase...there are always other options. The troubke with T&T is that we always trying to copy the west. lol It may be indeed be the case where our collective will is so weak that we capitulated already...once dey doh stop we carnival.