Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
Sports => Football => Topic started by: saga pinto on April 13, 2009, 01:32:47 PM
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The question I've been asking myself for years is do we really have we own brand or style of football that is unique just to trinbago ballers.I've heard guys on this site say is the soca warrior brand, Now it was the dutch style of football that took us to the world cup so should we stick with the european brand or is it the coach that ultimately makes the brand.....
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honestly? I would say:
Wild
No organization
Undisciplined
individual based.
The style that took us to the world cup was not that. Hence it is the coach that will dictate our style until local coaches make it a point to play with organization; but he must not tolerate the wildness/lack of discipline.
I'd say we should stick with the euro brand...
The Under 20's however play nice and cohesive.
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The Corbeaux brand
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Brand X
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we used to play a unique, trini-small-goal style in the 90's and early 2000's, capped by bertille st. clair.
We were ultra attacking, playing very attractive football.
But our defense always looked like we would concede. eg the gold cup in 2000. We looked like we could match Mexico attack for attack in that cliffhanger of a game, yet we lost 0-4.
It could very well have been 4-4.
The result was nice football, but we would get licks against more structured teams (eg. USA, Jamaica) or over a long, league format.
Under Gally, it was a similar style, but with a lot more discipline in the defense.
Then again, the 2 wingbacks were also more attacking and good crossers.
Under Beenhakker, for the first time since 89, we saw a much more structured, disciplined team, with wingbacks who could overlap as well, and look what happened.
We were very hard to break down, Germany was the classic example. Yet we always managed to be an offensive threat, which came from our naturally attacking mentality and players. In each game of the last 2 games of Germany 2006, we could have scored multiple goals.
Now we have lost this defensive structure, as well as the attacking wingback dimension.
We are now basically back to the 90's in term of lack of team structure, but to make it even worse, we dont have the players with the natural creativity and attacking flair and competence we had back them (Latas, Dwarika, Nixon, Leonson, Marcelle etc). So we are a poor-man version of a style that never really got us anywhere in the first place. Hence we rely on Dwight more than ever to dictate the game, or to kick up front to Stern and KJ and hope their individual skill pays off somehow.
Very predictable.
If T&T were a club team, i am sure the first 2 positions we would look for reinforcements are the wingback positions. Then the left midfield. We ok up front, and seemingly ok at the back in the middle. Could you imagine a T&T team with a Carlos Edwards twin on the left? We would be a serious threat in the region. Makes it more impressive how Edwards performs, cause everybody we play now I am sure the first tactic they plan for is to try to neutralise our right wing.
We now spend the majority of the game chasing the ball (in all 3 qualifiers we play so far), and when we get it, we dont have the patience or class to keep it and make the other team run around. We show glimpses of this, eg first half vs El Salvador, and last year the first half vs Guatemala in Guatemala. But the majority is chasing the ball.
If a team decided to post up and defend their half, we have absolutely no clue what to do, or we have an idea, but dont have the players to execute.
We always look more dangerous when we playing on the counter-attack, and the opposition has players committed in our half, so we get room to go at them on the run. Thats why i believe we are now a better road team (except vs the US and Mexico).
Brand of football we play now - a poor-man's version of the attacking Trini-small-goal style of the late 80's and 90's, that is extremely reliant on our 2 up front men and occasionally our right midfielder.
Some people also call it the Corbeaux brand.
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The question I've been asking myself for years is do we really have we own brand or style of football that is unique just to trinbago ballers.I've heard guys on this site say is the soca warrior brand, Now it was the dutch style of football that took us to the world cup so should we stick with the european brand or is it the coach that ultimately makes the brand.....
just because we had a dutch coach does not mean we played a dutch style. i am not even sure what the dutch style is since it changes constantly. the way holland plays now is nothing like the way the dutch played in the days of Cruyff when Total Football became a popular concept. even so..the way the Dutch, and any team worth its salt plays, requires great organzation, discipline, movement and technical ability...things we don't display enough of.
haven't seen this current team play too much, but from what I have seen, the team play seems pretty incohesive, and there really is no style. i actually have never seen T&T play anything that resembles modern football. Beenhaker organized the troops, but even at our best, we seem to look pedestrian, and we need two or three touches to do what a decent international player should do in one
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The question I've been asking myself for years is do we really have we own brand or style of football that is unique just to trinbago ballers.I've heard guys on this site say is the soca warrior brand, Now it was the dutch style of football that took us to the world cup so should we stick with the european brand or is it the coach that ultimately makes the brand.....
just because we had a dutch coach does not mean we played a dutch style. i am not even sure what the dutch style is since it changes constantly. the way holland plays now is nothing like the way the dutch played in the days of Cruyff when Total Football became a popular concept. even so..the way the Dutch, and any team worth its salt plays, requires great organzation, discipline, movement and technical ability...things we don't display enough of.
haven't seen this current team play too much, but from what I have seen, the team play seems pretty incohesive, and there really is no style. i actually have never seen T&T play anything that resembles modern football. Beenhaker organized the troops, but even at our best, we seem to look pedestrian, and we need two or three touches to do what a decent international player should do in one
I like This nice observation and critique......
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Not sure if we have/had a brand. We have always produced very skilful attacking minded players. We also played with great flair. Although we had some decent defenders, we never played team defense.
Blessings
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Spurts.
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We have no brand, we do what ever get us by.
You have Brand when the rest of the footballing world acknowledge yuh style of play.
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To play Dutch style total brand everybody must be in-sync and totally fit. A lot of running off the ball and absolurtely clean first touch. Only the 74 Holland team has mastered that.I have yet to see a team play like that brand again(That is my opinion). Do our current guys possess all thos qualities????
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beats and score.... anybody fuh anybody :devil: choose one ;D anything with no defense :rotfl:
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St Ann`s brand..... :devil:
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Raisin
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Inconsistent- we lack an identity.
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Raisin
Yeah boi, man does be rell purgin on dat bran! :rotfl:
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heart attack
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heart attack
Tellin me.... hmmm dem kids in the dallas cup playin like the seniors.
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Brand again? so wha Brand Mexico was juss lorsin with...dem own, Sven, Swedish or English ? Wha Brand does the USA play ? How come dem on top ah Concacaf so regular, is dat a Bess Brand ? How come nobody else doh copy dat Brand to beat dem ? or do you have to come with ah non-US brand to take dem ? will dat non-US brand make you beat USA, but put yuh on the bottom of Concacaf still ? Is playing to the best of one's ability ah Brand ? suppose yuh want to play ah Brazilian brand buh yuh fellas doh samba, is dat ah Bolivian brand ? Are we now entering the phase of ah Scottish brand, or ah Vibes it brand ? Is this the winning brand ? :rotfl: :rotfl:
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I think we have a specific brand.
Trinidad football is generally made up of a 4-4-2 system with one creative midfielder/playmaker and another midfielder who should be a hard-tackling workhorse, defensive mid but tends to just be a trundler.
We work the balls down the wings and try to get it inside to our two strikers who wait on the ball and are static otherwise. Off the ball runs are generally only based on the individual striker rather than any system or tactics. The two wide mids, the playmaker and the two strikers all like to get the bal and take on their man.
And that is our style traditionally.
When we have players who could real dribble, we tend to look pretty with no end result cause our wide mids tradtionally can never cross.
And our defenders just kick the ball out of the back.
That is our style through the years and each coach that comes along tries to imprint his own brand over that.
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dat is not ah brand or style, dat is weaknesses, so if we pick 2 mid guys who could cross, we changing we brand ? Live !
add: Sunderland knowningly pickin ah man who cyah cross..wha wrong with dem boy ::)
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hit and hope (defenders hitting the ball out and hoping it reach a TnT player)
edwards crossing from the wing and hoping it reach stern or kenwyne
brand? steups
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shithong
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Hit and Hope
Beat until yuh get Jam
Stand Up and Point
Heart Attack
Voom Kick
Jockey
Tackling doh happen here.
The only brand we playing for the longest while...is wipe up the ting running down yuh leg.
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Reading alot about style and tactics and quality- but is that really a brand? I guess to some extent yes, but to me "brand" is something more.
To me a brand is an element (sometimes an unknown quantity that yuh can't really describe) that is added to your style and employed tactics that distinguishes it from another team that plays the same basic style and employs the same tactics.
Certain teams have it...most teams do not. In fact scratch that- every team has a brand I suppose...some more generic than others..........i.e. some teams have a brand that is significantly more recognizeable than the majority...and alotta teams don't always display their brand either....some times Brazil plays a "Brazilian brand", very often they don't...
If I had to define "brand", I'd say it's a certain rhythm and balance that is defined by multitude of things in addition to tactics, formation and style of play (in a strict sense) among which are the type of players that make up the team, the players' physical build, the way they run, their varying technique, the way they express themselves on and off the ball, the team's footballing philosopy, even the way the players wear their uniforms...some would even argue that the instilled ideals, and societal qualities of a unit come out in a team's brand of football......The end result of this callalloo of factors is the way a certain team looks.
Brazil executing a 3 man combo on top of the box will almost always look different from England doing the same thing even if the play is identical- that's the difference in their brands. It's like store brand vs. popular brand- even if it's the same product, something about the popular brand is different/more satisfying.
When I think T&T, I would say our brand is relaxed and loose. In the days in and around strike squad and shortly thereafter, our brand was more recognizeable than it is today. I think lately it's been diluted by foreign influences (for better or for worse).
Some of the more recognizeable brands in my opinion:
Brazil
Germany
Argentina
England
Arsenal
Manchester United
Barcelona
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We play "hope for the best" brand, sometimes this is replaced by the "i mash up intercol so i ah boss" brand.
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Reading alot about style and tactics and quality- but is that really a brand? I guess to some extent yes, but to me "brand" is something more.
To me a brand is an element (sometimes an unknown quantity that yuh can't really describe) that is added to your style and employed tactics that distinguishes it from another team that plays the same basic style and employs the same tactics.
Certain teams have it...most teams do not. In fact scratch that- every team has a brand I suppose...some more generic than others..........i.e. some teams have a brand that is significantly more recognizeable than the majority...and alotta teams don't always display their brand either....some times Brazil plays a "Brazilian brand", very often they don't...
If I had to define "brand", I'd say it's a certain rhythm and balance that is defined by multitude of things in addition to tactics, formation and style of play (in a strict sense) among which are the type of players that make up the team, the players' physical build, the way they run, their varying technique, the way they express themselves on and off the ball, the team's footballing philosopy, even the way the players wear their uniforms...some would even argue that the instilled ideals, and societal qualities of a unit come out in a team's brand of football......The end result of this callalloo of factors is the way a certain team looks.
Brazil executing a 3 man combo on top of the box will almost always look different from England doing the same thing even if the play is identical- that's the difference in their brands. It's like store brand vs. popular brand- even if it's the same product, something about the popular brand is different/more satisfying.
When I think T&T, I would say our brand is relaxed and loose. In the days in and around strike squad and shortly thereafter, our brand was more recognizeable than it is today. I think lately it's been diluted by foreign influences (for better or for worse).
Some of the more recognizeable brands in my opinion:
Brazil
Germany
Argentina
England
Arsenal
Manchester United
Barcelona
Nice one Kicker well put together.....
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buffering!
Just watch dem via the internet..they so facking slow and unorganized, you'd swear the feed was buffering.
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Reading alot about style and tactics and quality- but is that really a brand? I guess to some extent yes, but to me "brand" is something more.
To me a brand is an element (sometimes an unknown quantity that yuh can't really describe) that is added to your style and employed tactics that distinguishes it from another team that plays the same basic style and employs the same tactics.
Certain teams have it...most teams do not. In fact scratch that- every team has a brand I suppose...some more generic than others..........i.e. some teams have a brand that is significantly more recognizeable than the majority...and alotta teams don't always display their brand either....some times Brazil plays a "Brazilian brand", very often they don't...
If I had to define "brand", I'd say it's a certain rhythm and balance that is defined by multitude of things in addition to tactics, formation and style of play (in a strict sense) among which are the type of players that make up the team, the players' physical build, the way they run, their varying technique, the way they express themselves on and off the ball, the team's footballing philosopy, even the way the players wear their uniforms...some would even argue that the instilled ideals, and societal qualities of a unit come out in a team's brand of football......The end result of this callalloo of factors is the way a certain team looks.
Brazil executing a 3 man combo on top of the box will almost always look different from England doing the same thing even if the play is identical- that's the difference in their brands. It's like store brand vs. popular brand- even if it's the same product, something about the popular brand is different/more satisfying.
When I think T&T, I would say our brand is relaxed and loose. In the days in and around strike squad and shortly thereafter, our brand was more recognizeable than it is today. I think lately it's been diluted by foreign influences (for better or for worse).
Some of the more recognizeable brands in my opinion:
Brazil
Germany
Argentina
England
Arsenal
Manchester United
Barcelona
kicker I would call that flair..as a "brand" is more dedicated, repeatable, long term..in terms of football, imo, none of the teams/clubs play the same style as any of their past teams...i think it's more down to who one selects, and team organization to suit....but is football, interpretation is the norm...your callaloo, my callaloo and a t&tian callaloo won't all be the same (taste), sometimes not even the same ingredients, but branded callaloo all the same, yet some still sweeter(preference) than some
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kicker I would call that flair..as a "brand" is more dedicated, repeatable, long term..in terms of football, imo, none of the teams/clubs play the same style as any of their past teams...i think it's more down to who one selects, and team organization to suit....but is football, interpretation is the norm...your callaloo, my callaloo and a t&tian callaloo won't all be the same (taste), sometimes not even the same ingredients, but branded callaloo all the same, yet some still sweeter(preference) than some
Don't really agree with your comment about flair. I think England has a very recognizeable brand- but I wouldn't say they play with an inordinate amount of flair...
I do think that brands can change from generation to generation- alot of it could just be a result of the changing game...that said I think that some teams manage to remain recognizeable through generation with a sort of je ne sais quois about their manner of play that is handed down somewhat from generation to generation.
Alot of it is perception I'm sure- but as they say, sometimes perception is reality.
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We brand is as a result of small goal....it jus informal....just like men coming in and saying..."yeh..i running up..." Players seem confused or not concerned about any roles they may have...how they should support each other...how they should respond to the opposition...or what they should do to exploit them. Mistakes may simply be punished by some cuss or steups...or being told to stay back...and if yuh conceed..worst case yuh do some pushups and cool it. Yuh play when yuh feel....yuh do one ting and relax for a while..yuh make a pass and stand up admiring it rather than offering support. Dahs we brand in a sense...like some random men who eh know each other get throw on a field and given a ball to work with. A brand is something yuh known for...something yuh see as yuh ideal...Barcelona with passing....Brazil with flair...and we seem to try to have that...exciting small goal touches with minimal fitness or knowing how to properly manage space..or manage crossing opportunities. Where legends are made from nostalgia...or how much beat get share in a space of time...or how much man get embarass. I eh know wha to call it really...buh......is something we need to know how to utilize to maximise our potential. I know some coaches that hate small goal and with good reason....but it has its application...i know wenger uses that...i saw a dutch dvd with the same small goal concept being applied. However the major problem is...that it not done systematically....or with any long term goal in mind. Dahs we brand dey...no planning...so we could call it extempo..yuh make it up as yuh go.
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kicker I would call that flair..as a "brand" is more dedicated, repeatable, long term..in terms of football, imo, none of the teams/clubs play the same style as any of their past teams...i think it's more down to who one selects, and team organization to suit....but is football, interpretation is the norm...your callaloo, my callaloo and a t&tian callaloo won't all be the same (taste), sometimes not even the same ingredients, but branded callaloo all the same, yet some still sweeter(preference) than some
Don't really agree with your comment about flair. I think England has a very recognizeable brand- but I wouldn't say they play with an inordinate amount of flair...
I do think that brands can change from generation to generation- alot of it could just be a result of the changing game...that said I think that some teams manage to remain recognizeable through generation with a sort of je ne sais quois about their manner of play that is handed down somewhat from generation to generation.
Alot of it is perception I'm sure- but as they say, sometimes perception is reality.
I hear but still don't readily see a difference in say ah England brand and a NI or even a Nigerian brand per se, I see a difference in some individuals but as a particular group no...not any more..pour moi, le "je ne sais quoi" is passion and preference of who turn the individual on...like kev expressed, dem like to see ah man throw he body and grate up he shin an ting, and sometimes we like to see man more cool take the ball from the other man like Carlos do to Abrim, for different things we go call it heart, buh if Los throw dat tackle an get leave out or did never get from Abrim, both ah we cuss him for the different approaqch, and would have preferred the other approach...for me todays game have ah more even play, and ah torres/Pool setup and blast, would very well be same as a Ronaldo/brazil setup and blast, yet somebody go tell yuh, Ronny own hah to have been sweeter, probably why I wasn't a big baller, cause, especially today, I just seeing GOAL in somebody sc**t...maybe like you may have made me realize,I too geared on the getting to the result than the method, doh I'm still able to appreciate the beauty..yet I still find Rooney does dog it, same as the beast, but sure the beast go play to the beat in my head, cause he look ah lil like me....i think the biggest change in the game is players from all over the orld playing in the league we atch, and thus everybody bring something different, and a greatness, but on the same note they take home their experiences as well..but good is good, andthat IT could be dem all still on another level, in spite of the style, brand or flair...go have to watch some more.
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We brand is as a result of small goal....it jus informal....just like men coming in and saying..."yeh..i running up..." Players seem confused or not concerned about any roles they may have...how they should support each other...how they should respond to the opposition...or what they should do to exploit them. Mistakes may simply be punished by some cuss or steups...or being told to stay back...and if yuh conceed..worst case yuh do some pushups and cool it. Yuh play when yuh feel....yuh do one ting and relax for a while..yuh make a pass and stand up admiring it rather than offering support. Dahs we brand in a sense...like some random men who eh know each other get throw on a field and given a ball to work with. A brand is something yuh known for...something yuh see as yuh ideal...Barcelona with passing....Brazil with flair...and we seem to try to have that...exciting small goal touches with minimal fitness or knowing how to properly manage space..or manage crossing opportunities. Where legends are made from nostalgia...or how much beat get share in a space of time...or how much man get embarass. I eh know wha to call it really...buh......is something we need to know how to utilize to maximise our potential. I know some coaches that hate small goal and with good reason....but it has its application...i know wenger uses that...i saw a dutch dvd with the same small goal concept being applied. However the major problem is...that it not done systematically....or with any long term goal in mind. Dahs we brand dey...no planning...so we could call it extempo..yuh make it up as yuh go.
Ahh man Bourbon, I think you hit the nail on the head there! Ditto. Totally agree, you saved me plenty time in thinking this through, as I can see you posted what I would have reasoned out. Brilliant post.
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kicker I would call that flair..as a "brand" is more dedicated, repeatable, long term..in terms of football, imo, none of the teams/clubs play the same style as any of their past teams...i think it's more down to who one selects, and team organization to suit....but is football, interpretation is the norm...your callaloo, my callaloo and a t&tian callaloo won't all be the same (taste), sometimes not even the same ingredients, but branded callaloo all the same, yet some still sweeter(preference) than some
Don't really agree with your comment about flair. I think England has a very recognizeable brand- but I wouldn't say they play with an inordinate amount of flair...
I do think that brands can change from generation to generation- alot of it could just be a result of the changing game...that said I think that some teams manage to remain recognizeable through generation with a sort of je ne sais quois about their manner of play that is handed down somewhat from generation to generation.
Alot of it is perception I'm sure- but as they say, sometimes perception is reality.
Yeah..agree with what you saying. The way I think about brand is, what makes two teams look different when they executing the exact same play. It is beyond just the basics and it is beyond formation, or tactics. Does a Brazilian national team look different playing a 4-3-3 than their English counterparts playing the same 4-3-3. I say yes. Brand involves the little nuances that are above and beyond the basics of the game and both players and fans contribute to the realities and perceptions of a national brand.
In today's global game where the best players are gravitiating to the same leagues, and are starting to look more and more alike...the idea of brand is not as obvious today as if you look at club football in nation's where there is relatively less foreign influence..Brazil, Argentina, Mexico etc. Also, no team, club or national, has 11 players with the same qualities, executing the same 'brand' of football. Another thing, is the 'brand' only shows itself during certain parts of the game. For 40 minutes a Brazilian team could look very 'non-Brazilian' and then Lucio chest traps a ball from a clearance, under pressure from a forward, hits him a fan and calmly distributes the ball. He may only do that once a game, but he will do it more than John Terry, or Sami Hyppia. It's only one individual demonstrating a piece of skill that makes people sit up and decide that was very Brazilian. But that is aslo part of the Brazilian 'brand'. The fact that countless generations of Brazilian sweepers did the same before him adds to the idea. The game is become more and more homogeneous in that regard, but I still see some general differences by country and by region in 1) individual flair, 2) physical build and posture, 3) interpretation of basic techniques and 4) fan expectation 5) player responsibility/expectation.
Brand also takes into consideration how a team reacts to certain scenarios..such as how they play when they're leading, or down a goal. We've come to expect a Brazilian team to play the same way when down a goal..while we expect a German or English team to up the tempo big time. At least I do. So it kinda simple, kinda complicated, part real, part perception. But at the end of the day, i think countries still produce players and teams that look like they belong to a specific nation or region. And that is what dictates a team's brand
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When you say brand...it really means to have packaged something and give it ah name that other's can not duplicate. Trade Mark per say. TM. Trinidad has a type of Samba Brazilian type of play, when it relates to one on one. Our national Teams are rarely giving a type of style or brand because of the organization and or corruption in our football. The continuous changes of the hand of coaches, is a result of not having a BRAND. Proper organization and good coaches with help us create a brand to be recognized and respected.
Despite these issues and or problems, the individual talents are still recognized by clubs around the world. We don’t have a BRAND but we have skills. At least we have something to work with. ;)
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When you say brand...it really means to have packaged something and give it ah name that other's can not duplicate. Trade Mark per say. TM. Trinidad has a type of Samba Brazilian type of play, when it relates to one on one. Our national Teams are rarely giving a type of style or brand because of the organization and or corruption in our football. The continuous changes of the hand of coaches, is a result of not having a BRAND. Proper organization and good coaches with help us create a brand to be recognized and respected.
Despite these issues and or problems, the individual talents are still recognized by clubs around the world. We don’t have a BRAND but we have skills. At least we have something to work with. ;)
ah on de wuk, so short
Bourbon, small goal is not unique to T&T, and At the senior Intl level we not just throwing in small goal men.
Filho, doh I accept what you say, I will settle for " So it kinda simple, kinda complicated, part real, part perception". eg. Hangeland(fulham) was looking Brazil-ish - to use your Lucio eg. - right down to the killer tata pass he went on to make Sunday, doh he from Norway.
Weh-it-is, I agree.
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I think one of the glaring differences in our football is the body language during a game,much different to lets say a brazil,germany,italy,england,argentina or france these teams exude a certain confidence beyond the norm.It could be even deemed as pure arrogance saying do you know who I'm or is war bring yuh a game.....
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When you say brand...it really means to have packaged something and give it ah name that other's can not duplicate. Trade Mark per say. TM. Trinidad has a type of Samba Brazilian type of play, when it relates to one on one. Our national Teams are rarely giving a type of style or brand because of the organization and or corruption in our football. The continuous changes of the hand of coaches, is a result of not having a BRAND. Proper organization and good coaches with help us create a brand to be recognized and respected.
Despite these issues and or problems, the individual talents are still recognized by clubs around the world. We don’t have a BRAND but we have skills. At least we have something to work with. ;)
ah on de wuk, so short
Bourbon, small goal is not unique to T&T, and At the senior Intl level we not just throwing in small goal men.
Filho, doh I accept what you say, I will settle for " So it kinda simple, kinda complicated, part real, part perception". eg. Hangeland(fulham) was looking Brazil-ish - to use your Lucio eg. - right down to the killer tata pass he went on to make Sunday, doh he from Norway.
Weh-it-is, I agree.
Never said it was unique....but...it not applied properly. But the attitude we have for small goal pervades our football..de structure informal.....and is jus like we making it up as we go along. Wenger for example as i said uses small goal in technique development...and arsenal and us seem to have the same scorn for shooting from distance. It shows. We dont shoot from outside...we doh really maximise crosses, and yuh could go on and on. Add to the lax laid back attitude that present because for most men is "jus a sweat"....yuh see men ball watching....not marking properly...etc. We doh concentrate for the full game period...and the list goes on and on. Wha plan do we really execute? We have all dis skill and flair and it doh have no end product. Brazil has skill and flair..yuh see men running intelligently off the ball...making themselves available for a pass if needed. If yuh have a man dat running about and trying...he "wile". If yuh eh so competent with de dribbling and fancy ting...buh yuh want to sweat..yuh hadda hold down de back....so is any suprise when we defenders have poor ball handling skills? Is just like trini culture...everybody doing wha dey want...extemporaneously..and hoping it work. We never really punished for errors...and we prone to make it anywhere...it eh no scene really..is jus a sweat.
I think one of the glaring differences in our football is the body language during a game,much different to lets say a brazil,germany,italy,england,argentina or france these teams exude a certain confidence beyond the norm.It could be even deemed as pure arrogance saying do you know who I'm or is war bring yuh a game.....
De body language for us in my view is more...."whaever oui...i jus come to take a small sweat." And it shows in our attitude. Why yuh feel it so refreshing when our teams actually show some fight? How much men does come back in hard after getting beat? I remember spann get turn up from a costa rican and take he beat and leave de man...and de man bearing down on ian cox....and dah end up being 2-0. How much players yuh see taking beat and eh trying to get back? It eh like we really concerned. Well..dahs jus how i see it.
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kicker I would call that flair..as a "brand" is more dedicated, repeatable, long term..in terms of football, imo, none of the teams/clubs play the same style as any of their past teams...i think it's more down to who one selects, and team organization to suit....but is football, interpretation is the norm...your callaloo, my callaloo and a t&tian callaloo won't all be the same (taste), sometimes not even the same ingredients, but branded callaloo all the same, yet some still sweeter(preference) than some
Don't really agree with your comment about flair. I think England has a very recognizeable brand- but I wouldn't say they play with an inordinate amount of flair...
I do think that brands can change from generation to generation- alot of it could just be a result of the changing game...that said I think that some teams manage to remain recognizeable through generation with a sort of je ne sais quois about their manner of play that is handed down somewhat from generation to generation.
Alot of it is perception I'm sure- but as they say, sometimes perception is reality.
Yeah..agree with what you saying. The way I think about brand is, what makes two teams look different when they executing the exact same play. It is beyond just the basics and it is beyond formation, or tactics. Does a Brazilian national team look different playing a 4-3-3 than their English counterparts playing the same 4-3-3. I say yes. Brand involves the little nuances that are above and beyond the basics of the game and both players and fans contribute to the realities and perceptions of a national brand.
In today's global game where the best players are gravitiating to the same leagues, and are starting to look more and more alike...the idea of brand is not as obvious today as if you look at club football in nation's where there is relatively less foreign influence..Brazil, Argentina, Mexico etc. Also, no team, club or national, has 11 players with the same qualities, executing the same 'brand' of football. Another thing, is the 'brand' only shows itself during certain parts of the game. For 40 minutes a Brazilian team could look very 'non-Brazilian' and then Lucio chest traps a ball from a clearance, under pressure from a forward, hits him a fan and calmly distributes the ball. He may only do that once a game, but he will do it more than John Terry, or Sami Hyppia. It's only one individual demonstrating a piece of skill that makes people sit up and decide that was very Brazilian. But that is aslo part of the Brazilian 'brand'. The fact that countless generations of Brazilian sweepers did the same before him adds to the idea. The game is become more and more homogeneous in that regard, but I still see some general differences by country and by region in 1) individual flair, 2) physical build and posture, 3) interpretation of basic techniques and 4) fan expectation 5) player responsibility/expectation.
Brand also takes into consideration how a team reacts to certain scenarios..such as how they play when they're leading, or down a goal. We've come to expect a Brazilian team to play the same way when down a goal..while we expect a German or English team to up the tempo big time. At least I do. So it kinda simple, kinda complicated, part real, part perception. But at the end of the day, i think countries still produce players and teams that look like they belong to a specific nation or region. And that is what dictates a team's brand
filho i totally agree with u. for example, a brazilian team playing 4-3-3 will probably have all 3 players more or less in the middle of the park, whereas the english will have 3 players more or less middle on defense and 2 men spread wide on offense. on offense, the brazilians will knock and dribble it down your throat with that system whereas england will spread it out and try and wip in some crosses for the strikers. thats the difference in brand! however, i think some of the new english players, like walcott and roney will probably change the english brand, hence y they doing well with an italian coach. :beermug:
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When you say brand...it really means to have packaged something and give it ah name that other's can not duplicate. Trade Mark per say. TM. Trinidad has a type of Samba Brazilian type of play, when it relates to one on one. Our national Teams are rarely giving a type of style or brand because of the organization and or corruption in our football. The continuous changes of the hand of coaches, is a result of not having a BRAND. Proper organization and good coaches with help us create a brand to be recognized and respected.
Despite these issues and or problems, the individual talents are still recognized by clubs around the world. We don’t have a BRAND but we have skills. At least we have something to work with. ;)
ah on de wuk, so short
Bourbon, small goal is not unique to T&T, and At the senior Intl level we not just throwing in small goal men.
Filho, doh I accept what you say, I will settle for " So it kinda simple, kinda complicated, part real, part perception". eg. Hangeland(fulham) was looking Brazil-ish - to use your Lucio eg. - right down to the killer tata pass he went on to make Sunday, doh he from Norway.
Weh-it-is, I agree.
Never said it was unique....but...it not applied properly. But the attitude we have for small goal pervades our football..de structure informal.....and is jus like we making it up as we go along. Wenger for example as i said uses small goal in technique development...and arsenal and us seem to have the same scorn for shooting from distance. It shows. We dont shoot from outside...we doh really maximise crosses, and yuh could go on and on. Add to the lax laid back attitude that present because for most men is "jus a sweat"....yuh see men ball watching....not marking properly...etc. We doh concentrate for the full game period...and the list goes on and on. Wha plan do we really execute? We have all dis skill and flair and it doh have no end product. Brazil has skill and flair..yuh see men running intelligently off the ball...making themselves available for a pass if needed. If yuh have a man dat running about and trying...he "wile". If yuh eh so competent with de dribbling and fancy ting...buh yuh want to sweat..yuh hadda hold down de back....so is any suprise when we defenders have poor ball handling skills? Is just like trini culture...everybody doing wha dey want...extemporaneously..and hoping it work. We never really punished for errors...and we prone to make it anywhere...it eh no scene really..is jus a sweat.
I think one of the glaring differences in our football is the body language during a game,much different to lets say a brazil,germany,italy,england,argentina or france these teams exude a certain confidence beyond the norm.It could be even deemed as pure arrogance saying do you know who I'm or is war bring yuh a game.....
De body language for us in my view is more...."whaever oui...i jus come to take a small sweat." And it shows in our attitude. Why yuh feel it so refreshing when our teams actually show some fight? How much men does come back in hard after getting beat? I remember spann get turn up from a costa rican and take he beat and leave de man...and de man bearing down on ian cox....and dah end up being 2-0. How much players yuh see taking beat and eh trying to get back? It eh like we really concerned. Well..dahs jus how i see it.
i agree your point wit d small goal and how it translates to d senior level.
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Quality aside, there was a time when T&T's brand of football used to be a loose, relaxed brand with an unprofessional/raw but confident saga boy finish...(Kinda how Trinis like tuh move in general ;D )
Not sure what it is now.
Based on my interpretation brand, here is a list of one word/short descriptions that I would use to associate some of the more popular brands:
Brazil- happy/dancing
Argentina-relentless
Germany- robust
Barcelona- colourful
England- serious
Arsenal- smooth
Man U- calculated/balanced
Madrid- proud/cocky
Holland- neat/polished
Italy- dramatic/intense
Milan- composed/swaggering
Juventus- machine-like
Not a perfect science of course (I just came up with that on the spot), but regardless of the actual style of play or tactics employed, to me that's how those teams present their football, and I think their brands define very much how their opponents perceive them, how they themselves execute plays, how they deal with certain in game situations and ultimately have bearing on their success.
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on a local point of view
I think one of the glaring differences in our football is the body language during a game,much different to lets say a brazil,germany,italy,england,argentina or france these teams exude a certain confidence beyond the norm.It could be even deemed as pure arrogance saying do you know who I'm or is war bring yuh a game.....
We can't act like those teams you mentioned for obvious reasons but in Concacaf; US, Mexico and Costa Rica exude confidence. I'd say so should T&T, at least in the Caribbean we are definitely at the top; I haven't seen games recently against other Caribbean teams, but do we act all arrogant? We the only Caribbean team in the Hex, in the U-20 World cup, and most recently in the last world cup...we have a great track record...PERIOD.
Footballers on the field is like animals in the wild, yuh enemy can smell fear...they need to bring out the animal instinct
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The Corbeaux brand
:beermug: :beermug:
at times it's frustrating (to watch)... the goals might be sloppy... but teams either love to hate playing against it or hate to love it when we score on dem...
sometimes I does wonder if de goals was 2 big stone instead, if we would actually be more cunning and tactical...
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I think we have a specific brand.
Trinidad football is generally made up of a 4-4-2 system with one creative midfielder/playmaker and another midfielder who should be a hard-tackling workhorse, defensive mid but tends to just be a trundler.
We work the balls down the wings and try to get it inside to our two strikers who wait on the ball and are static otherwise. Off the ball runs are generally only based on the individual striker rather than any system or tactics. The two wide mids, the playmaker and the two strikers all like to get the bal and take on their man.
And that is our style traditionally.
When we have players who could real dribble, we tend to look pretty with no end result cause our wide mids tradtionally can never cross.
And our defenders just kick the ball out of the back.
That is our style through the years and each coach that comes along tries to imprint his own brand over that.
Ah Corbeaux brand... :beermug: :beermug:
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Raisin
Without de raisins.
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I think one of the glaring differences in our football is the body language during a game,much different to lets say a brazil,germany,italy,england,argentina or france these teams exude a certain confidence beyond the norm.It could be even deemed as pure arrogance saying do you know who I'm or is war bring yuh a game.....
We have the all the beats, rainbow, crossover , hardtop all the dribbling styles but we have not yet learn the tactical part of the game, that most younger students in the other great footballing nations are taught from a very young age. Big men still don’t understand when it is necessary to beat, and how important it is to knock the ball, but they will beat yuh until yuh pants fall off.
We must learn that this game is not played by individuals but by teams. Goals are not scored by individuals but by a team. If you loose the ball you must become upset and or angry to run back to help win back that ball, not stand up like, oh well.
This game is a love to do anything,anything,anything to win. Religious!
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Nah...we definitely have a brand. All sides have a brand.
If Jamaica come here, we know what to expect (hard tackling with some flair players);
USA (non stop running, hustling, closing down spaces and deadly on set pieces and in the box),
Mexico (slow build up, short passes then the long one and boom).
Same way with us. All the sides know to expect Trinidad (individual flair and creativity but apply pressure and the defence will make errors). Also, they slow out of the blocks...like Beenie say, we take 20 minutes to get going.
So we definitely have a brand even if we cah define it.
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Nah...we definitely have a brand. All sides have a brand.
If Jamaica come here, we know what to expect (hard tackling with some flair players);
USA (non stop running, hustling, closing down spaces and deadly on set pieces and in the box),
Mexico (slow build up, short passes then the long one and boom).
Same way with us. All the sides know to expect Trinidad (individual flair and creativity but apply pressure and the defence will make errors). Also, they slow out of the blocks...like Beenie say, we take 20 minutes to get going.
So we definitely have a brand even if we cah define it.
all ah dat is still part ah de Corbeaux...
eh... check it, on we day, nobody cyah beat we... we just too nice and not imposing enough... but trust meh, if we could just get de style to a science and hold on to de ball... we go give real teams, reals tears hoss...
until we really acknowledge dat is a Corbeaux brand dat we does play, we only foolin' weself...
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The Corbeaux brand
:beermug: :beermug:
at times it's frustrating (to watch)... the goals might be sloppy... but teams either love to hate playing against it or hate to love it when we score on dem...
sometimes I does wonder if de goals was 2 big stone instead, if we would actually be more cunning and tactical...
Tough love boi.......but yuh right about the big stone analogy.....
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lets see the trini brand. Its based on trini time
1. Take we a half to get going
2. Very Slow and lethargic build up
3. Love to give the opposition time and space
4. Lack of discipline in our overall organization
5. Strong on the ball when no pressure on we
6. How could I forget shady Goal Keeping
But then beenie showed what we could become with overall team discipline and some organization
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lets see the trini brand. Its based on trini time
1. Take we a half to get going
2. Very Slow and lethargic build up
3. Love to give the opposition time and space
4. Lack of discipline in our overall organization
5. Strong on the ball when no pressure on we
6. How could I forget shady Goal Keeping
But then beenie showed what we could become with overall team discipline and some organization
If yuh was a star boy in SSFL yuh guaranteed a sweat... If yuh is ah legend... you first on the list!
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The Corbeaux brand
:beermug: :beermug:
at times it's frustrating (to watch)... the goals might be sloppy... but teams either love to hate playing against it or hate to love it when we score on dem...
sometimes I does wonder if de goals was 2 big stone instead, if we would actually be more cunning and tactical...
Tough love boi.......but yuh right about the big stone analogy.....
tough love fuh true Saga... buh, dat 3-0 was de worse hoss...
if we could really hold de ball and play at we pace constructively, wid de brand of the Corbeaux, T&T Football could go far...
how much man on here feel dat when dey was young dat dey wanted to represent...
now, we "analyzing"... is de same small goal "Corbeaux sweat" brand... I sure we is de only nation who does play 2 a side 1 goal come off...
one ting for sure tho, we hadda refine it, because it could be just what gets us to SA2010...
watch de man on de wing...aye!
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Nah...we definitely have a brand. All sides have a brand.
If Jamaica come here, we know what to expect (hard tackling with some flair players);
USA (non stop running, hustling, closing down spaces and deadly on set pieces and in the box),
Mexico (slow build up, short passes then the long one and boom).
Same way with us. All the sides know to expect Trinidad (individual flair and creativity but apply pressure and the defence will make errors). Also, they slow out of the blocks...like Beenie say, we take 20 minutes to get going.
So we definitely have a brand even if we cah define it.
Ahem...doh let we fall out eh.... ;D
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The question I've been asking myself for years is do we really have we own brand or style of football that is unique just to trinbago ballers.I've heard guys on this site say is the soca warrior brand, Now it was the dutch style of football that took us to the world cup so should we stick with the european brand or is it the coach that ultimately makes the brand.....
We playing "Elton Brand" :rotfl:
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I think a lot of us have gotten numb to the reality that our football ent that good hence the reason for lack of a brand,we've been boasting for years that trini ballers are some of the best in the world ah mean look how long we've been playing football as oppose to how long the USA been playing football but yet still they're able to beat us consistently while showcasing a brand of football that has been consistent throughout the years.
The problem is we've been stuck with an identity crisis for as long as I no our football and realistically if we make it through this hex will be by the skin of our teeth.
The only way to try and fix these problems is not with the present crop of ballers we've now but the young kids we've coming up,a new way of thinking more stress on confidence building,discipline,and conditioning......
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We only longer by 5 years, but have millions of ppl/money/organization and size less, that influence the natural course of evolution and development. Thus our individual skill development, and our weak organizational structure, yet we can step on the same field.
"
Originally founded in 1913 as the United States Football Association, U.S. Soccer was one of the world’s first organizations to be affiliated with FIFA, soccer’s world governing body, and has grown into one of the sport’s organizational leaders, integrating player participation and player development into arguably the world’s most successful top-to-bottom National Team program. "
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Could you imagine if the United States Soccer Federation was the sole governing body of football in the US. i think when they figure out that one where there is one voice that run things like most world football powers then we know we chances are nil against them. As you alluded to they have taken advantage of their resources in terms of massive numbers of people playing, dollars, organization and I will add lack of overall respect by its neighbors when it comes to the level of baller in this country as well as its technology.
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Brandsmart 8). HIGHLY BLESSED.
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Brandsmart 8). HIGHLY BLESSED.
So what yuh actually saying is ah set of appliances representing we. ;D
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The Corbeaux brand
:beermug: :beermug:
at times it's frustrating (to watch)... the goals might be sloppy... but teams either love to hate playing against it or hate to love it when we score on dem...
sometimes I does wonder if de goals was 2 big stone instead, if we would actually be more cunning and tactical...
Tough love boi.......but yuh right about the big stone analogy.....
tough love fuh true Saga... buh, dat 3-0 was de worse hoss...
if we could really hold de ball and play at we pace constructively, wid de brand of the Corbeaux, T&T Football could go far...
how much man on here feel dat when dey was young dat dey wanted to represent...
now, we "analyzing"... is de same small goal "Corbeaux sweat" brand... I sure we is de only nation who does play 2 a side 1 goal come off...
one ting for sure tho, we hadda refine it, because it could be just what gets us to SA2010...
watch de man on de wing...aye!
And the USSF trying real hard to get they players to do just that. Their idea of street soccer is having the kids show up at practice and the coach do not coach just sit and watch no organization. However, here's the RULES for the coach when ORGANIZING street soccer. Set out cones, put out bibs and let the team keeps their own scores, some even go so far as to build the fields and make teams.
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Our seniors currently play the brand of spanner and drag..
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When last you see a spanner or a drag from our seniors (except Hyland)?
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Brandsmart 8). HIGHLY BLESSED.
So what yuh actually saying is ah set of appliances representing we. ;D
;) ;D. HIGHLY BLESSED.
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shyt
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I think we may have to coin some words like sub-brand and ghetto-brand for this one if the word brand is a must :)
TnT falls into the central american brand of football which is known for unlimited short passess and skillful dribbles. It's not unusual to see a trini midfielder dribbles several guys in the midfield and when he notices there is noboby left to dribble, he just passes the ball laterally to another midfielder or even a defender like to say, "I'm done.Your turn, sir"!
However, the caribbean adds different flavors to that brand which we may call ghetto-brands. Teams like TnT, Guadeloupe, Haiti, Martinique play the same ghetto-brand while Jamaica, St-Vincent, Barbados form a different group within that same central american brand.
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Nah...we definitely have a brand. All sides have a brand.
If Jamaica come here, we know what to expect (hard tackling with some flair players);
USA (non stop running, hustling, closing down spaces and deadly on set pieces and in the box),
Mexico (slow build up, short passes then the long one and boom).
Same way with us. All the sides know to expect Trinidad (individual flair and creativity but apply pressure and the defence will make errors). Also, they slow out of the blocks...like Beenie say, we take 20 minutes to get going.
So we definitely have a brand even if we cah define it.
all ah dat is still part ah de Corbeaux...
eh... check it, on we day, nobody cyah beat we... we just too nice and not imposing enough... but trust meh, if we could just get de style to a science and hold on to de ball... we go give real teams, reals tears hoss...
until we really acknowledge dat is a Corbeaux brand dat we does play, we only foolin' weself...
Eh ah go be nice .....but enough of that corbeux brand shit talk . Daiz Maturana brand he introduced ,that would not be a everlasting legacy breds eh eh . The Corbeaux is dead .
We gonna try ah magic brand .
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Nah...we definitely have a brand. All sides have a brand.
If Jamaica come here, we know what to expect (hard tackling with some flair players);
USA (non stop running, hustling, closing down spaces and deadly on set pieces and in the box),
Mexico (slow build up, short passes then the long one and boom).
Same way with us. All the sides know to expect Trinidad (individual flair and creativity but apply pressure and the defence will make errors). Also, they slow out of the blocks...like Beenie say, we take 20 minutes to get going.
So we definitely have a brand even if we cah define it.
all ah dat is still part ah de Corbeaux...
eh... check it, on we day, nobody cyah beat we... we just too nice and not imposing enough... but trust meh, if we could just get de style to a science and hold on to de ball... we go give real teams, reals tears hoss...
until we really acknowledge dat is a Corbeaux brand dat we does play, we only foolin' weself...
Eh ah go be nice .....but enough of that corbeux brand shit talk . Daiz Maturana brand he introduced ,that would not be a everlasting legacy breds eh eh . The Corbeaux is dead .
We gonna try ah magic brand .
Cosig n but who is d brand manager?
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https://www.youtube.com/v/30tKMYVzGLw
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We play typical English ball. But when we have a good crop players like(74, 80,!06) we play a brand that surprise our opponents and even ourselves.