Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: TriniCana on November 05, 2009, 04:26:18 PM
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CNN.com
(CNN) -- Eleven people plus a gunman were killed and 31 were wounded after the gunman opened fire at Fort Hood in Texas on Thursday, a Fort Hood spokesman said. The gunman was a soldier, and two other soldiers have been detained as suspects, said the spokesman, Lt. Gen. Bob Cone.
Cone said more than one shooter may have been involved.
President Obama called the shootings "tragic" and "a horrific outburst of violence." He expressed his condolences for the shooting victims. "These are men and women who have made the selfless and courageous decision to risk, and at times give, their lives to protect the rest of us on a daily basis," Obama said. "It's difficult enough when we lose these brave Americans in battles overseas. It is horrifying that they should come under fire at an Army base on American soil."
Officials at Fort Hood, which is the Army's largest U.S. post, were asking people there to stay away from windows, CNN affiliate KXXV said. The incident took place at the sports dome, now known as the soldier readiness area, the station reported.
A congressional aide said he was on the post to attend a graduation service when he saw a soldier with blood on his uniform near the building where the service was being held, the Austin American-Statesman reported.
Greg Schannep, an aide to U.S. Rep. John Carter, said the soldier ran past him and said a man was shooting. He said the soldier appeared to be injured in a shoulder, the American-Statesman reported.
FBI agents are headed to the scene to assist, said Erik Vasys, spokesman for the FBI office in San Antonio. He had no other details.
On the Fort Hood Web site, the word "closed" is posted with the statement, "Effective immediately, Fort Hood is closed. Organizations/units are instructed to execute a 100 percent accountability of all personnel."
Fort Hood, with about 40,000 troops, is home to the Army's 1st Cavalry Division and elements of the 4th Infantry Division, as well as the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment and the 13th Corps Support Command. It is located near Killeen, Texas.
At least 25,000 people are at Fort Hood on any given day, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon said.
Fort Hood is home to the Warrior Combat Stress Reset Program, which is designed to help soldiers overcome combat stress issues.
In June, Fort Hood's commander, Lt. Gen. Rick Lynch, told CNN that he was trying to ease the kind of stresses soldiers face. He has pushed for soldiers working a day schedule to return home for dinner by 6 p.m., and required his personal authorization for anyone working weekends. At the time, two soldiers stationed there had committed suicide in 2009 -- a rate well below those of other posts.
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like they had them fellas in cage awuh,how they bad soh.
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Well Texas is d wild wild west so d showin it. D want d right 2 bear arms so bear this is d effect.
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Well Texas is d wild wild west so d showin it. D want d right 2 bear arms so bear this is d effect.
This comment is just stupid.
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CNN.com
The gunman was a soldier, and two other soldiers have been detained as suspects, Army Lt. Gen. Bob Cone said.
The slain gunman was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, according to a law enforcement source. The source believes he is 39 or 40 years old.
Ten of the other dead also were soldiers, while the remaining one was a civilian police officer who was working as a contractor on the base, Cone said.
Two of the injured were in "very serious" condition, Fort Hood spokesman Christopher Hogue said.
The slain gunman was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan <----------- allyuh watch this name then tell me what I'm thinking :-X
Look how 'throw blame" will cause havoc in the US again....
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Well Texas is d wild wild west so d showin it. D want d right 2 bear arms so bear this is d effect.
This comment is just stupid.
We all not as bright as u wit yuh night school degrees in law/journalism and whatever else.
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CNN.com
The gunman was a soldier, and two other soldiers have been detained as suspects, Army Lt. Gen. Bob Cone said.
The slain gunman was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan, according to a law enforcement source. The source believes he is 39 or 40 years old.
Ten of the other dead also were soldiers, while the remaining one was a civilian police officer who was working as a contractor on the base, Cone said.
Two of the injured were in "very serious" condition, Fort Hood spokesman Christopher Hogue said.
The slain gunman was Maj. Malik Nadal Hasan <----------- allyuh watch this name then tell me what I'm thinking :-X
Look how 'throw blame" will cause havoc in the US again....
D Muslim go get blame in this instance.
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We all not as bright as u wit yuh night school degrees in law/journalism and whatever else.
Doh say "we all" speak for yourself... you not too bright period. You don't need a degree to realize that the rights of private citizens to bear arms has no bearing on an shooting committed by an Army Major and which takes place on a military base. I won't even bother addressing the tenuous connections between the shooting and Texas' reputation of being the "wild wild west".
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TriniCana I think you might be onto something by focusing on his name/ethnicity.
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We all not as bright as u wit yuh night school degrees in law/journalism and whatever else.
Doh say "we all" speak for yourself... you not too bright period. You don't need a degree to realize that the rights of private citizens to bear arms has no bearing on an shooting committed by an Army Major and which takes place on a military base. I won't even bother addressing the tenuous connections between the shooting and Texas' reputation of being the "wild wild west".
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TriniCana I think you might be onto something by focusing on his name/ethnicity.
D culture of wild wild west is dat whether d shootin happen on an army base is insignificant. So it may have been easier 2 get d gun in dis instance. D fact is dat compare to other developed countries especially their colleagues in Europe where dey eh have d right to bare arms d number of these instances are far less. I am sure you would have read about it in your extensive readings.
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Well Bakes it has already started. Check out the comments below from CNN.com
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/05/texas.fort.hood.shootings/index.html
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very very strange as per the following quote
"A defense official speaking on condition of anonymity told the Associated Press that Hasan was a mental health professional — an Army psychologist or psychiatrist."
but then again maybe he is only a regular soldier.
Warfare ent easy atall atall
very sad situation for sure
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very very strange as per the following quote
"A defense official speaking on condition of anonymity told the Associated Press that Hasan was a mental health professional — an Army psychologist or psychiatrist."
but then again maybe he is only a regular soldier.
Warfare ent easy atall atall
Psychatrist d link trini post say psychiatrist
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This story getting more interesting by the hour
CNN.com
"The slain gunman was identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, a law enforcement source told CNN. Licensed in Virginia, Hasan was a psychiatrist who previously worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center but more recently was practicing at Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood, according to professional records.
Hasan was scheduled to be deployed to Iraq, "and appeared to be upset about that," Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, said."
Ya know at the beginning before all of this unfolded, I read he was a Psychiatrist, and my first reaction was "ay ay like he trip?" But it's like, he was vex? For the military personnel on the forum, a question. Is it normal for a doctor to have a weapon on his person while on base?
Anyway they have since released the 2 suspects and apparently arrested another soldier.
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http://www.businessinsider.com/photo-of-malik-nadal-hasan
(http://cstsonline.org/csts_bin/image/images/staff/hasan.png)
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D culture of wild wild west is dat whether d shootin happen on an army base is insignificant. So it may have been easier 2 get d gun in dis instance. D fact is dat compare to other developed countries especially their colleagues in Europe where dey eh have d right to bare arms d number of these instances are far less. I am sure you would have read about it in your extensive readings.
Fool... you're not allowed to have 'civilian' guns on a military base. The Major got these guns not because of no 2nd Amendment, but rather because of the fact that he was a military officer... these are MILITARY GUNS procured right there on the military base, from the military stockpiles. AGAIN, the 2nd Amendment rights of private citizens to bear arms isn't implicated in an instance where a soldier 'borrows' military guns to shoot up a military base. The 2nd Amendment right, "the culture" of gun ownership only applies to private citizens having the right to buy their own guns.
2nd Amendment or no 2nd Amendment, soldiers have access to guns on the base... especially ranking officers. Even then, he easily could have checked out the weapons to say they were for training. This was not a private citizen... even in places where there is no "culture" of gun ownership this same problem could happen.
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That answered my question, I think!
Okay yes he was a major which qualified him to carry/own a weapon, but his profession as a Psychiatrist, dealing with patients with mental disorders in an military base - would that have still qualified him to have a weapon on his person? Find that a tad risky!
Anyway I just looking for answers just like john public....only speculating :-\
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D culture of wild wild west is dat whether d shootin happen on an army base is insignificant. So it may have been easier 2 get d gun in dis instance. D fact is dat compare to other developed countries especially their colleagues in Europe where dey eh have d right to bare arms d number of these instances are far less. I am sure you would have read about it in your extensive readings.
Fool... you're not allowed to have 'civilian' guns on a military base. The Major got these guns not because of no 2nd Amendment, but rather because of the fact that he was a military officer... these are MILITARY GUNS procured right there on the military base, from the military stockpiles. AGAIN, the 2nd Amendment rights of private citizens to bear arms isn't implicated in an instance where a soldier 'borrows' military guns to shoot up a military base. The 2nd Amendment right, "the culture" of gun ownership only applies to private citizens having the right to buy their own guns.
2nd Amendment or no 2nd Amendment, soldiers have access to guns on the base... especially ranking officers. Even then, he easily could have checked out the weapons to say they were for training. This was not a private citizen... even in places where there is no "culture" of gun ownership this same problem could happen.
Oh bright 1 it could happen but it doh happen. In d US IS D NORM. Is not even a story 4 Nancy Grace d novelty of carryin a mass shootin gone. She eh talkin bout it D next time d shootin happen and it eh on an army base what go b d reason. A big psychology expert like u can explain 2 a dumbo like me y it oh hapen in Canada for eg
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That answered my question, I think!
Okay yes he was a major which qualified him to carry/own a weapon, but his profession as a Psychiatrist, dealing with patients with mental disorders in an military base - would that have still qualified him to have a weapon on his person? Find that a tad risky!
Anyway I just looking for answers just like john public....only speculating :-\
Sad but even d psychiatrist can trip
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That answered my question, I think!
Okay yes he was a major which qualified him to carry/own a weapon, but his profession as a Psychiatrist, dealing with patients with mental disorders in an military base - would that have still qualified him to have a weapon on his person? Find that a tad risky!
Anyway I just looking for answers just like john public....only speculating :-\
I haven't read more into the story yet but I imagine that he would not be carrying arms while treating patients in his office. Even so, most of these officers who carry arms on the base, they only carry sidearms. I really don't think these shootings (given how many are dead/injured) was carried out using a sidearm/handgun. Again, having not read much beyond the initial reports, my guess is that these shootings were carried out with automatic/assault weapons.
My earlier point was that you can't bring weapons onto a military base, but granted you have the right type of access privileges, you could get into an arsenal to access automatic weapons. He probably wouldn't even need an excuse or reason just on account of his security clearance as a Major... so separate from the gun issued to him, he likely had access to more powerful weapons on base.
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Oh bright 1 it could happen but it doh happen. In d US IS D NORM. Is not even a story 4 Nancy Grace d novelty of carryin a mass shootin gone. She eh talkin bout it D next time d shootin happen and it eh on an army base what go b d reason. A big psychology expert like u can explain 2 a dumbo like me y it oh hapen in Canada for eg
You think it never had a shooting on a military base in Canada? You think it never happen in England or other parts of Europe? The fact of the matter is that private laws don't apply to military bases... this is the point that you either can't understand or simply fail to acknowledge. No culture of gun ownership or right to bear arms argument is relevant here because even in a place like DC where it is next to impossible for the average citizen to own a gun, that doesn't prevent military personnel from carrying guns on base, or otherwise having access to guns on base.
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Oh bright 1 it could happen but it doh happen. In d US IS D NORM. Is not even a story 4 Nancy Grace d novelty of carryin a mass shootin gone. She eh talkin bout it D next time d shootin happen and it eh on an army base what go b d reason. A big psychology expert like u can explain 2 a dumbo like me y it oh hapen in Canada for eg
You think it never had a shooting on a military base in Canada? You think it never happen in England or other parts of Europe? The fact of the matter is that private laws don't apply to military bases... this is the point that you either can't understand or simply fail to acknowledge. No culture of gun ownership or right to bear arms argument is relevant here because even in a place like DC where it is next to impossible for the average citizen to own a gun, that doesn't prevent military personnel from carrying guns on base, or otherwise having access to guns on base.
What bout d sociey that d man come from dat make him luv guns and then he join d army where he can get easy access. So because he eh buy d gun in a gun show it have no bearin on d fact dat in d good ole USA man luv 2 shoot up d place. So because it happen on an army base it iz an isolated incident. In a society where 1 of these incidents at least annually. BUT U ARE D INTELLECT SO WHATEVER U SAY MUST B GOSPEL
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What bout d sociey that d man come from dat make him luv guns and then he join d army where he can get easy access. So because he eh buy d gun in a gun show it have no bearin on d fact dat in d good ole USA man luv 2 shoot up d place. So because it happen on an army base it iz an isolated incident. In a society where 1 of these incidents at least annually. BUT U ARE D INTELLECT SO WHATEVER U SAY MUST B GOSPEL
Where it even say that he "luv guns"? The fact of the matter is that you jumping to all kinda conclusion about American society that you know nothing about other than what you see on TV or read on the internet. First off the man born in northern Virginia and lives in Bethesday, MD. Both these locales are suburbs of DC and the subcultures present in those areas don't have thriving gun-cultures. Secondly his family are Jordanians... there's a bigger possibility that he was influenced by the culture of his parents than he was influenced by any gun sub-culture in the US. Generally speaking people of middle-eastern heritage hew closely to that culture.
To say that just because certain parts of the US celebrate gun-ownership that that is the case everywhere is as stupid as saying that Trinidad is a gang and kidnapping society just because those crimes and criminal mindsets are present in certain pockets in TnT. Not all Trinis into de badboy culture, not all agree with kidnapping as a means of making easy money... same way a majority of Americans don't think they should be walking around the streets strapped with guns... believe it or not. It's a nice fiction that advances whatever your agenda, so I doh expect that you'd let little things like facts and common sense to get in the way of that.
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November 5, 2009, 4:07 pm
Mass Shooting at Fort Hood
By Robert Mackey
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/06/us/06forthood05/blogSpan.jpg)
Ben Sklar/Getty Images
Sgt. Fanuaee Vea embraced Pvt. Savannah Green while speaking on the phone outside Fort Hood.
Update | 9:15 p.m. At a news conference outside Fort Hood the base commander, Gen. Robert Cone, just revealed that earlier reports that the gunman, Major Nidal Hasan, had been killed were incorrect. Major Hasan was wounded but remains alive. Gen. Cole says that Major Hasan is in custody and “his death is not imminent.”
Gen. Cone added that soldiers are not armed on the base: “As a matter of practice, we do not carry weapons — this is our home.”
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/reports-of-mass-shooting-at-fort-hood/?hp
Cana that last bolded part might help provide some of your answers... and if pardna make it thru he go be lucky if he ent face execution.
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Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye... lawd Bakes!!!
Is a lucky thing I wasn't taking my information from dey neighborhood maco!
Since 5 pm I logged on to CNN and 20 mins ago I logged off to start preparing for work in the morning. Look what I missed - well almost!
Unlike a General Hospital that I know of, they will make sure this murderer is kept alive...by any means necessary.
I see my question was also answered....nice!
I think the most hurtful part is when they start calling the names and ages of the deceased. Ain't even get a chance to serve their country...killed by one of ya own. I tell you, what a world we live in :(
note: i logged off of CNN but ah still glue on to SW.net. My priorities are in tact ;D
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Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye... lawd Bakes!!!
Is a lucky thing I wasn't taking my information from dey neighborhood maco!
Since 5 pm I logged on to CNN and 20 mins ago I logged off to start preparing for work in the morning. Look what I missed - well almost!
Unlike a General Hospital that I know of, they will make sure this murderer is kept alive...by any means necessary.
I see my question was also answered....nice!
I think the most hurtful part is when they start calling the names and ages of the deceased. Ain't even get a chance to serve their country...killed by one of ya own. I tell you, what a world we live in :(
note: i logged off of CNN but ah still glue on to SW.net. My priorities are in tact ;D
Glad yuh have yuh priorities in order, lol.
But that sad eh? Imagine dem fellas and dem getting they last medical clearance, probably imagining what terror was awaiting dem across the seas... not knowing terror waiting fuh dem and coming from one ah dey very own :-\
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What bout d sociey that d man come from dat make him luv guns and then he join d army where he can get easy access. So because he eh buy d gun in a gun show it have no bearin on d fact dat in d good ole USA man luv 2 shoot up d place. So because it happen on an army base it iz an isolated incident. In a society where 1 of these incidents at least annually. BUT U ARE D INTELLECT SO WHATEVER U SAY MUST B GOSPEL
Where it even say that he "luv guns"? The fact of the matter is that you jumping to all kinda conclusion about American society that you know nothing about other than what you see on TV or read on the internet. First off the man born in northern Virginia and lives in Bethesday, MD. Both these locales are suburbs of DC and the subcultures present in those areas don't have thriving gun-cultures. Secondly his family are Jordanians... there's a bigger possibility that he was influenced by the culture of his parents than he was influenced by any gun sub-culture in the US. Generally speaking people of middle-eastern heritage hew closely to that culture.
To say that just because certain parts of the US celebrate gun-ownership that that is the case everywhere is as stupid as saying that Trinidad is a gang and kidnapping society just because those crimes and criminal mindsets are present in certain pockets in TnT. Not all Trinis into de badboy culture, not all agree with kidnapping as a means of making easy money... same way a majority of Americans don't think they should be walking around the streets strapped with guns... believe it or not. It's a nice fiction that advances whatever your agenda, so I doh expect that you'd let little things like facts and common sense to get in the way of that.
D SOCIETY LUV GUNS. D 2nd ammendment say so. Tell me anoher country that in dey constiution and then yuh argument go hold water. Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyye... lawd Bakes!!!
Is a lucky thing I wasn't taking my information from dey neighborhood maco!
Since 5 pm I logged on to CNN and 20 mins ago I logged off to start preparing for work in the morning. Look what I missed - well almost!
Unlike a General Hospital that I know of, they will make sure this murderer is kept alive...by any means necessary.
I see my question was also answered....nice!
note: i logged off of CNN but ah still glue on to SW.net. My priorities are in tact ;D
OF COURSE whenevr I go away I just check d GD page 2 find on what ah miss
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D SOCIETY LUV GUNS. D 2nd ammendment say so. Tell me anoher country that in dey constiution and then yuh argument go hold water.
Uhmmm sorry, you don't prove a positive by asserting the contrapositive. The 2nd Amendment states that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Where in that does it say the society "luvs guns"? It doesn't say government can't regulate the ownership of guns... which the government, like every other Western government does. The Constitution also said at the time that the government couldn't stop the importation of slaves until 1808... does that mean that American society today is pro-slavery?
Of course not... except to a simpleton. But as I said, you ent go let facts and commonsense get in the way of your agenda so I won't waste any more time on your ignorance.
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Baked you go sour vomit boy.... whey sah, Yuh is ah pest.
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D SOCIETY LUV GUNS. D 2nd ammendment say so. Tell me anoher country that in dey constiution and then yuh argument go hold water.
Uhmmm sorry, you don't prove a positive by asserting the contrapositive. The 2nd Amendment states that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Where in that does it say the society "luvs guns"? It doesn't say government can't regulate the ownership of guns... which the government, like every other Western government does. The Constitution also said at the time that the government couldn't stop the importation of slaves until 1808... does that mean that American society today is pro-slavery?
Of course not... except to a simpleton. But as I said, you ent go let facts and commonsense get in the way of your agenda so I won't waste any more time on your ignorance.
U know how ignorant a person is by d time u hear dey call another person one. So d last time I looked it up in d dictionary u came up. D right 2 bear arms must not b infringed. I know d either US Constitution I know all d ammendments. Is not u alone could read. Oh I 4go u studied it in night school 2 get your high school/degree/post gratuate and phd.
D fact everybody doh want they right 2 b infringed means that everybody want to own one. I still waitin 4 your expert conclusion dat y is only in d USA that such a problem exist where peeps does go postal and shoot up d place.
Baked you go sour vomit boy.... whey sah, Yuh is ah pest.
No he is the only bright 1 d rest of us went 2 school in August.
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I failed to see the correlation between Texas and the gun culture as it pertains to this guys. This guys lived( Silver Spring, MD) and worked in the DC area(Walter Reed Hospital). Let's wait and see what evidence the authorities have gather, before we say anything.
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I failed to see the correlation between Texas and the gun culture as it pertains to this guys. This guys lived( Silver Spring, MD) and worked in the DC area(Walter Reed Hospital). Let's wait and see what evidence the authorities have gather, before we say anything.
Deeks if u live in a society where these shootings are d norm whether he is a 5 star general really have no bearing. D culture of gun violence in d US is my issue. Y is only in US these shootings occur. So u get deploy and u eh want to go u shoot up d place. If a similar scenario had played out in d UK a man get deploy and eh want to go would his response be the same? I doubt it.
Is only in d US these shootings are d norm. It is such a non issue now hat last night MSNBC had normal programming/Nancy Grace talk bout d sicko serial killer. Prieviously this would have been d lead story last nite/today. When Columbine happen it was carried 4 a wk. I guess these shootings eh headline news any more well at least not for Nancy Grace.
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early reports mentioned a possible second shooter - did they rule this out?
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early reports mentioned a possible second shooter - did they rule this out?
CNN.com said this morning that it was a lone gun man and the 3 previous suspects were released! But then again, yesterday they said that the killer was killed too - so your guess is as good as mine oui.
Also heard that a woman officer who was also shot, is the one that basically 'saved' more from being killed.....hmmm!
Still, the head they pushing is the fact that the man was VEX he was being deployed mid November to serve....
steupses!!
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Baked you go sour vomit boy.... whey sah, Yuh is ah pest.
Well, I'm no biologist but I'm pretty sure that "pest" is still somewhere higher up the evolutionary chain than "nannyhole"... your idea of stimulating interaction is giving yuhself de finger, so worry more about yuhself than me.
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on npr they were mentioning too that in the army there are not many people who counsel the counselors..this man has heard all sorts of traumatic experiences recounted god knows how he feels inside. i also heard that supposedly he gave a lecture a few years ago about islam in which he spouted some real hardcore beliefs and one of the guys afterwards told his colleagues "is this guy gonna go postal some day". again we dont know what set this man off but somehow i feel this kinda ting could happen any time any place, is not like the army is extremely selective about who it accepts.
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Allyuh bear with me eh, but I'm one for CNN and nobody else except when TMZ came out with MJ news first.
But farseness hit me just now and I went into Foxnews.com just to hear what them maccomere men saying
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572448,00.html
The Army psychiatrist suspected of being the lone gunman in a horrific massacre at Fort Hood in Texas took a "very calm and measured approach" to carrying out the mass shooting, the commanding general said Friday.
Survivors of the rampage that killed 13 and wounded 30 said the suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great!" in Arabic — before opening fire, base commander Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said.
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People will forget that all of this is just speculation, especially those who still have Sept 11th fresh in their minds - those who still seeking revenge for the killing of the innocent, ain't really care that this man is a born american citizen. "He's a terrorist!" and all hell will break loose!
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Allyuh bear with me eh, but I'm one for CNN and nobody else except when TMZ came out with MJ news first.
But farseness hit me just now and I went into Foxnews.com just to hear what them maccomere men saying
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572448,00.html
The Army psychiatrist suspected of being the lone gunman in a horrific massacre at Fort Hood in Texas took a "very calm and measured approach" to carrying out the mass shooting, the commanding general said Friday.
Survivors of the rampage that killed 13 and wounded 30 said the suspect, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great!" in Arabic — before opening fire, base commander Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said.
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People will forget that all of this is just speculation, especially those who still have Sept 11th fresh in their minds - those who still seeking revenge for the killing of the innocent, ain't really care that this man is a born american citizen. "He's a terrorist!" and all hell will break loose!
Doh get domestic CNN and since I eh gone digital yet I watch MSNBC dey want 2 say y he eh call a teroist yet. D family say he was being tauted 4 bein a muslim so it is a 911 spin 4 sure.
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Kimberly Munley praised for ending Fort Hood rampage
Police officer confronted gunman and shot him four times despite being wounded herself
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/6/1257519540583/Kimberley-Munley--police--001.jpg)
Kimberly Munley, the police officer who shot the Fort Hood gunman, with the country singer Dierks Bentley. Photograph: Twitter
The civilian police officer who shot and "subdued" the gunman responsible for the Fort Hood killings was today hailed as a hero.
Sergeant Kimberly Munley was praised for her "amazing and aggressive performance" by the top commander at Fort Hood, Lieutenant General Bob Cone, who credited her with stopping the shooting rampage that killed 13 people at the Texas post. Munley shot the gunman four times despite being wounded herself.
Cone said Munley and her partner responded within three minutes of reported gunfireyesterday afternoon. Munley had been directing traffic moments before she confronted the gunman, the New York Daily News reported.
Munley, who had been trained in active-response tactics, rushed into the building and confronted the shooter as he was turning a corner, Cone said.
"It was an amazing and an aggressive performance by this police officer," Cone said.
Munley was only a few feet from army psychiatrist Major Nidal Malik Hasan when she opened fire.
Munley was reported to be in a stable condition at a local hospital.
She was well enough to spend last night phoning fellow officers to find out about casualties in the attack, the New York Daily News reported.
Cone said Munley's aggressive response training taught her that "if you act aggressively to take out a shooter you will have less fatalities".
"She walked up and engaged him," he said. He praised her as "one of our most impressive young police officers".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/06/kimberly-munley-fort-hood
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on npr they were mentioning too that in the army there are not many people who counsel the counselors..this man has heard all sorts of traumatic experiences recounted god knows how he feels inside. i also heard that supposedly he gave a lecture a few years ago about islam in which he spouted some real hardcore beliefs and one of the guys afterwards told his colleagues "is this guy gonna go postal some day". again we dont know what set this man off but somehow i feel this kinda ting could happen any time any place, is not like the army is extremely selective about who it accepts.
Nah, yuh wrong about dat one there... he went de Officer route he was never just some enlisted man, where they take any and everybody... no disrespect to the enlisted servicemen. Officer Candidate School is a very rigorous process used to weed out those who not up to par. Plus you have to consider his medical training (in Psychiatry no less... one of the harder professions). No amount of pre-screening woulda ketch he if he made it this far. Likely this was something that wasn't latent, but which manifested itself later on in his career as the disgust with the war and trepidation about deployment became more real.
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I curious as to how civilian police responded so fast (how about the fact that they were involved at all?) instead of the Military Police.
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i hear what u saying bredda...but reports say his record wasn't sterling, he got bad performance reviews in the past... and some sources claimed he was 'lazy". also supposedly since he was an intern he had problems that required counseling and extra supervision. anyhoo, we ent know all the facts yet so i guess all we can do is speculate. real sad story though.
kudos to that police woman, me ent know if i coulda be a hero like she nah.
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Baked you go sour vomit boy.... whey sah, Yuh is ah pest.
Well, I'm no biologist but I'm pretty sure that "pest" is still somewhere higher up the evolutionary chain than "nannyhole"... your idea of stimulating interaction is giving yuhself de finger, so worry more about yuhself than me.
Hahaha WikiBakes :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
You is the only person who could build and argument on assumptions while trying to belittle another person for the same thing. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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'Cop Killer' Gun Used In Ft. Hood Shooting, Officials Said
Suspected Massacre Weapon Purchased Legally At 'Guns Galore' Shop in Texas
By MATTHEW COLE, PIERRE THOMAS, JASON RYAN, and RICHARD ESPOSITO
Nov. 6, 2009 —
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/cop-killer-gun-thought-ft-hood-shooting/story?id=9019521
The gun thought to be used in the Fort Hood massacre packs so much firepower, it's known as 'the Cop Killer,' federal law enforcement officials said.
Major Nidal Malik Hasan allegedly packed a FN Herstal Five-seveN tactical pistol, which according to federal law enforcement officials, was legally purchased from the "Guns Galore" shop in Killeen, Texas in Aug. 2009. The store's manager, David Cheadle, said that particular firearm can hold 20 rounds in a standard clip and take a ten round clip extension. Cheadle said with one clip and one round in the chamber, one could fire 31 rounds before reloading.
Hasan may have used an expanded clip in the shooting.
On FN Herstal's webpage, the benefits of the Five-seveN pistol note that it can "defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action."
The second gun he had with him was a .357 S&W Magnum revolver, federal law enforcement officials tell ABC News. Ballistics are still being run to determine if he used the revolver in the shooting.
Federal agents, military investigators and Texas Rangers had been investigating whether the gun allegedly used by Hasan was purchased at "Guns Galare," Cheadle told ABC News.
"They called last night and asked about a specific name and gun purchase, but the name was not Hasan," said Cheadle.
Three investigators, including one wearing a Texas Rangers badge, were seen entering the store just before noon Friday. The manager said they were interviewing all of the store employees.
They declined to comment as they left Guns Galore in a car with Department of Defense markings.
The manager said he recognized a photo shown to him of Major Nidal Malik Hasan, identified by authorities as the suspect shooter at Fort Hood. But he said Hasan would have had to show identification if he had bought the gun in his name.
Cheadle said the agents were interested in a FN pistol that uses 5.7 caliber ammunition.
Click Here for the Blotter Homepage.
Copyright © 2009 ABC News Internet Ventures
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Wonder if this swine flu vaccine driving ppl crazy .I just give birth to a monster conspiracy theory lol.
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Wonder if this swine flu vaccine driving ppl crazy .I just give birth to a monster conspiracy theory lol.
:rotfl:
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apparently dis eh de 1st mass shooting in kileen, texas. in 1991 george hennard kill 23 people with a pair of handguns. wtf.
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:-X
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Weary 1969 yuh know yuh do have an agenda! first off, you iz one of the ppl who feel that yuh could compare TNT wid the good ole US of A, and BTW good luck wid that comparison, BC there is so much land, life styles and culture to cover, that it's mind boggling.
while TNT is just ah small town wid oil campared to the hundreds of thousands of square miles where the culture could change drastically from city to city , town to town , state to state here in the USA where there is so much diversity. to me it's a crazy idea to campare the two.
believe it or not, legal guns in the U.S. barely kill anyone, it's the illegal ones that do. so a citizens right to bare arms has very little effect on gun crime,it's the guns that slip through the cracks that does be responsible for gun violence and street crimes.
in most major cities in the united states, to own ah gun legally is damn near to impossible, places like houston dallas forth worth, oklahoma city, billings and saltlake city might be the exception, but in big cities up north, perchasing ah gun for the average joe is like getting ah loan wid no collateral, no job and bad credit.
right there in TNT there is ah gun culture growing slowly but surely! and yuh want tuh know something, just like the U.S. the guns that's responsible for street crimes and lost of life, is not on account of the legal fire arms, but the illegal ones.
i remember when i was ah yute, my dad had ah gun, ah don't know if it was legal, but i remember it well, and he used tuh rub shoulders wid nuff white ppl there in trini and them fellas had they guns and they used tuh go to the target range and practice regularly.
same for barbados, when i go there i does visit the range and indulge in recreational shooting, if yuh could only see the unsuspecting, skeet shooting and target shooting, yuh would never know bados have so much ppl who own guns.
my point is, gun does barley kill ppl, but ppl do. i believe in gun control, and i believe guns should be left in the hands of responsible ppl, and even sometimes responsible ppl does trip and ignore their responsibilities and abuse the trust that was bestowed on them.
the countless police officers world wide who does lose it and kill their significant other is testemony to that. let me ask yuh this, would you blame that on the countries gun laws, or on the unfortunate inevitability that occurs, when law enforcemant agents betray their trust, which happens to occur now and sometimes then ?
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Weary 1969 yuh know yuh do have an agenda! first off, you iz one of the ppl who feel that yuh could compare TNT wid the good ole US of A, and BTW good luck wid that comparison, BC there is so much land, life styles and culture to cover, that it's mind boggling.
while TNT is just ah small town wid oil campared to the hundreds of thousands of square miles where the culture could change drastically from city to city , town to town , state to state here in the USA where there is so much diversity. to me it's a crazy idea to campare the two.
believe it or not, legal guns in the U.S. barely kill anyone, it's the illegal ones that do. so a citizens right to bare arms has very little effect on gun crime,it's the guns that slip through the cracks that does be responsible for gun violence and street crimes.
in most major cities in the united states, to own ah gun legally is damn near to impossible, places like houston dallas forth worth, oklahoma city, billings and saltlake city might be the exception, but in big cities up north, perchasing ah gun for the average joe is like getting ah loan wid no collateral, no job and bad credit.
right there in TNT there is ah gun culture growing slowly but surely! and yuh want tuh know something, just like the U.S. the guns that's responsible for street crimes and lost of life, is not on account of the legal fire arms, but the illegal ones.
i remember when i was ah yute, my dad had ah gun, ah don't know if it was legal, but i remember it well, and he used tuh rub shoulders wid nuff white ppl there in trini and them fellas had they guns and they used tuh go to the target range and practice regularly.
same for barbados, when i go there i does visit the range and indulge in recreational shooting, if yuh could only see the unsuspecting, skeet shooting and target shooting, yuh would never know bados have so much ppl who own guns.
my point is, gun does barley kill ppl, but ppl do. i believe in gun control, and i believe guns should be left in the hands of responsible ppl, and even sometimes responsible ppl does trip and ignore their responsibilities and abuse the trust that was bestowed on them.
the countless police officers world wide who does lose it and kill their significant other is testemony to that. let me ask yuh this, would you blame that on the countries gun laws, or on the unfortunate inevitability that occurs, when law enforcemant agents betray their trust, which happens to occur now and sometimes then ?
[/quote
Where I compare USA 2 TNT. All I am sayin d fact dat your country of residence constitution say all yuh could own a gun if u want to. D British constitution which eh written and other so call 1st world countries constitution doh say so. When compared the amt of incidents that happen thu and fri in d US is minimal in d others. Is it merely a coincidence dat all yuh peeps does go postal while yuh fellow 1st worlders don't.
I say it eh a coincidence neva do a psycholgical study because guess what it eh a psychology class in UWI is a General Discussion page in a football forum. I doh need to come here to show how much I know or don't know. My emplyer pays me for my knowledge.
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I still waitin 4 your expert conclusion dat y is only in d USA that such a problem exist where peeps does go postal and shoot up d place.
yuh go wait a long time for an answer. de statistic doh lie - america gun violence is off the charts with respect to the rest of the world. maybe is cause michael moore discuss this in bowling for columbine that man pretend it eh so. if it eh on fox and come from o'reily mouth, it eh true.
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I still waitin 4 your expert conclusion dat y is only in d USA that such a problem exist where peeps does go postal and shoot up d place.
yuh go wait a long time for an answer. de statistic doh lie - america gun violence is off the charts with respect to the rest of the world. maybe is cause michael moore discuss this in bowling for columbine that man pretend it eh so. if it eh on fox and come from o'reily mouth, it eh true.
Nah dis 1 doh count because d fella eh buy d guns in a gun show.
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I still waitin 4 your expert conclusion dat y is only in d USA that such a problem exist where peeps does go postal and shoot up d place.
yuh go wait a long time for an answer. de statistic doh lie - america gun violence is off the charts with respect to the rest of the world. maybe is cause michael moore discuss this in bowling for columbine that man pretend it eh so. if it eh on fox and come from o'reily mouth, it eh true.
No worst than these countries.
jamaica.
columbia
venezuela
pakistan
brazil
trinidad and tobago
pueto rico
mexico
afganistan.
russia
czhech rep.
bagdad. and i'm sure there are other places that i forgot to mention, i still maintain the notion that guns in the wrong hands iz ah recipe for disaster, which in turn creates plenty havoc.
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I still waitin 4 your expert conclusion dat y is only in d USA that such a problem exist where peeps does go postal and shoot up d place.
yuh go wait a long time for an answer. de statistic doh lie - america gun violence is off the charts with respect to the rest of the world. maybe is cause michael moore discuss this in bowling for columbine that man pretend it eh so. if it eh on fox and come from o'reily mouth, it eh true.
No worst than these countries.
jamaica.
columbia
venezuela
pakistan
brazil
trinidad and tobago
pueto rico
mexico
afganistan.
russia
czhech rep.
bagdad. and i'm sure there are other places that i forgot to mention, i still maintain the notion that guns in the wrong hands iz ah recipe for disaster, which in turn creates plenty havoc.
So America worst or no worst than 3 rd Worlds countries
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So America worst or no worst than 3 rd Worlds countries
The point isn't whether America is better or worse than these countries... from the sheer number of incidents it's pretty clear that the problem is severe in America. The issue is whether this could attributable to the 2nd Amendment as that dumbass Weary trying to assert. If the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is the cause of gun violence in the US how do you explain the gun violence that we see in some of these "third world" countries that just cool list? Dumbass weary sheself say none of these other countries have the right to bear arms written into their constitutions... but people bearing arms anyways, why?
People using illegal handguns to kill each other in these countries and only using legal handguns to kill in the US... clearly only an idiot would assert that, but then again, Weary is well-qualified as such.
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The right to bear arms ,The home of brave and the land of the free baby .Gotta love it ,the second best Country in the World after Canada.whooooo
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on npr they were mentioning too that in the army there are not many people who counsel the counselors..this man has heard all sorts of traumatic experiences recounted god knows how he feels inside. i also heard that supposedly he gave a lecture a few years ago about islam in which he spouted some real hardcore beliefs and one of the guys afterwards told his colleagues "is this guy gonna go postal some day". again we dont know what set this man off but somehow i feel this kinda ting could happen any time any place, is not like the army is extremely selective about who it accepts.
Nah, yuh wrong about dat one there... he went de Officer route he was never just some enlisted man, where they take any and everybody... no disrespect to the enlisted servicemen. Officer Candidate School is a very rigorous process used to weed out those who not up to par. Plus you have to consider his medical training (in Psychiatry no less... one of the harder professions). No amount of pre-screening woulda ketch he if he made it this far. Likely this was something that wasn't latent, but which manifested itself later on in his career as the disgust with the war and trepidation about deployment became more real.
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I curious as to how civilian police responded so fast (how about the fact that they were involved at all?) instead of the Military Police.
Bakes, from what I understand they were in the area already for something else. There's several different versions of just why they were in the area, The partner of PO Kimberly Munley said in an interview that they were pulling up near that building just around the time that the shootings began, some other news reports claim that she was outside directing traffic when the shootings began, and I've just read a report that they were in the car on the way to the repair shop which was nearby, when they got the call about the shootings. It was just a matter of luck, being in the right place at the right time I guess. Also want to re-emphasize something that you said, which is that this man was a Major and that is not a title that is handed out overnight to just any and anybody. Also as some have mentioned, just because you are on a military base, doesnt mean you automatically are allowed to have guns, or even access to them. This man bought these outside, brought them back onto the base for this specific purpose.
Now a question. Yes the gun problem in the US is severe. But when you break it down and crunch the numbers, is it really as severe as some make it out to be? Or is it because there is a larger population? Do you have a statistic somewhere along the lines of per 100 gun-related deaths or something like that that can be compared to a 3rd world country? I would be interested in seeing the breakdown, and I know you might have that kind of info.
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VC1 yeah... I subsequently read that these are actually police stationed on the base. I'm not sure why they are there to augment the MP force, but this is a civilian force stationed on the base.
As for handgun related deaths here are some stats:
Total gun-related deaths (including suicide) per 100,000 people in 1994 by country were as follows:
•U.S.A. 14.24
•Brazil 12.95
•Mexico 12.69
•Estonia 12.26
•Argentina 8.93
•Northern Ireland 6.63
•Finland 6.46
•Switzerland 5.31
•France 5.15
•Canada 4.31
•Norway 3.82
•Austria 3.70
•Portugal 3.20
•Israel 2.91
•Belgium 2.90
•Australia 2.65
•Slovenia 2.60
•Italy 2.44
•New Zealand 2.38
•Denmark 2.09
•Sweden 1.92
•Kuwait 1.84
•Greece 1.29
•Germany 1.24
•Hungary 1.11
•Ireland 0.97
•Spain 0.78
•Netherlands 0.70
•Scotland 0.54
•England and Wales 0.41
•Taiwan 0.37
•Singapore 0.21
•Mauritius 0.19
•Hong Kong 0.14
•South Korea 0.12
•Japan 0.05
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166
This list is gun-related murders:
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 31,918
# 2 Colombia: 21,898
# 3 Thailand: 20,032
# 4 United States: 9,369
# 5 Philippines: 7,708
# 6 Mexico: 2,606
# 7 Slovakia: 2,356
# 8 El Salvador: 1,441
# 9 Zimbabwe: 598
# 10 Peru: 442
# 11 Germany: 269
# 12 Czech Republic: 181
# 13 Ukraine: 173
# 14 Canada: 144
# 15 Albania: 135
# 16 Costa Rica: 131
# 17 Azerbaijan: 120
# 18 Poland: 111
# 19 Uruguay: 109
# 20 Spain: 97
# 21 Portugal: 90
# 22 Croatia: 76
# 23 Switzerland: 68
# 24 Bulgaria: 63
# 25 Australia: 59
# 26 Sweden: 58
# 27 Bolivia: 52
# 28 Japan: 47
# 29 Slovenia: 39
= 30 Hungary: 38
= 30 Belarus: 38
# 32 Latvia: 28
# 33 Burma: 27
# 34 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 26
# 35 Austria: 25
# 36 Estonia: 21
# 37 Moldova: 20
# 38 Lithuania: 16
= 39 United Kingdom: 14
= 39 Denmark: 14
# 41 Ireland: 12
# 42 New Zealand: 10
# 43 Chile: 9
# 44 Cyprus: 4
# 45 Morocco: 1
= 46 Iceland: 0
= 46 Luxembourg: 0
= 46 Oman: 0
Total: 100,693
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms
This one (below) is very interesting... as it shows several European countries ahead of the US... but of course, you never read about their stories.
Interesting that 50% of households in Finland own guns... not sure if the rate of legal gun ownership is that high in the US. The one caveat I have with this site is that it is a pro-gun ownership site... but that said, not sure what that means for the stats.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
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Thanks much, I knew you would come through with the info ;D
SO essentially, while the US had ( in 94 anyway) the highest total gun related deaths, there weren't as many murders as there were suicides. And If I'm not mistaken, suicide by firearms is the no 1. method in the us even to this day isnt it?
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So America worst or no worst than 3 rd Worlds countries
The point isn't whether America is better or worse than these countries... from the sheer number of incidents it's pretty clear that the problem is severe in America. The issue is whether this could attributable to the 2nd Amendment as that dumbass Weary trying to assert. If the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is the cause of gun violence in the US how do you explain the gun violence that we see in some of these "third world" countries that just cool list? Dumbass weary sheself say none of these other countries have the right to bear arms written into their constitutions... but people bearing arms anyways, why?
People using illegal handguns to kill each other in these countries and only using legal handguns to kill in the US... clearly only an idiot would assert that, but then again, Weary is well-qualified as such.
When dis become an issue of legal and illegal guns. D issue is y yankees luv 2 go postal. We neva was talkin bout gun violence every country have an issue wit gun violence. But the good ole USA is the place where a man loose he wuk and 2 yrs later go shoot up d place stop changing the goal post. D gun use in Fort Hood as legal as dey come. But would a Canadian muslim in d same situation do the same ting. U are d intellectual what is d answer.
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So America worst or no worst than 3 rd Worlds countries
The point isn't whether America is better or worse than these countries... from the sheer number of incidents it's pretty clear that the problem is severe in America. The issue is whether this could attributable to the 2nd Amendment as that dumbass Weary trying to assert. If the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is the cause of gun violence in the US how do you explain the gun violence that we see in some of these "third world" countries that just cool list? Dumbass weary sheself say none of these other countries have the right to bear arms written into their constitutions... but people bearing arms anyways, why?
People using illegal handguns to kill each other in these countries and only using legal handguns to kill in the US... clearly only an idiot would assert that, but then again, Weary is well-qualified as such.
That is not a fair argument. Weary was referring to this type of event and not attributing the 2nd ammendment as The Cause of all gun violence in teh US. The "causes" for high rate of gun violence will be multiple and can (and most likely will) be different for each country. Clearly a lot of US gun violence is crime related and committed using illegal weapons. However the rate of crime and lawlessness in these “embattled” countries like Jamaica, Colombia, Trinidad and Brazil is a lot higher than in the US. So the question would be why is the US even in the same neighbourhood with those countries in terms of numbers.
More to the point though, comparing total gun-related murders conceals the phenomenon surrounding this particular type of crime where a disturbed, heretofore, non-criminal individual legally purchases semi-automatic weapons, weapons whose only purpose is to be as deadly as possible. It is reasonable to suggest that those types of killings can be curtailed by better gun control.
To question the effect of gun control on US gun violence a better comparison for the US would be similarly developed, affluent countries like Canada and other G7 nations that do have stronger gun control. Even accounting for economic differences and general crime statistics the comparison is stark from the numbers you posted below. The US is 3 times the rate of Canada and France, 7 times that of Italy and more than ten times that of Germany.
However you guys want to parse it weary was not too far off. Her statement was about the gun culture in the US facilitating these types of tragedies and that the cost of life has to be borne by the society that “loves their guns”. Such a society cannot have it both ways. Just as the parent whose child discharges a family weapon, accidentally or on purpose, has to bear responsibility. In this instance this was a weapon obtained as a civilian.
There will be disturbed people everywhere but these cases will always be more prevalent and more costly when there is easy access to weapons that do the most damage in the least amount of time. I would think that with the litany of similar incidents people would not be questioning the role of legalizing and promoting these weapons in these events.
On a sidenote it would be interesting to know whether this weapon could have been as easily obtained in MD/VA.
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When dis become an issue of legal and illegal guns. D issue is y yankees luv 2 go postal. We neva was talkin bout gun violence every country have an issue wit gun violence. But the good ole USA is the place where a man loose he wuk and 2 yrs later go shoot up d place stop changing the goal post. D gun use in Fort Hood as legal as dey come. But would a Canadian muslim in d same situation do the same ting. U are d intellectual what is d answer.
Wait... is NOT YOU who start with de 2nd Amendment talk??? The Second Amendment refers to the right to legally own guns. YOU attributed this shooting to the Second Amendment right... your very first comment in factessentially said Americans love they right to bear arms to this is the result. Now you saying is about "y yankees luv 2 go postal"... and yet you have the cheek to talk about me changing goalpost? Look yuh even bringing "Canadian muslim" into the talk as if the man religion had anything to do with him shooting these people. I am sure it have people in Canada who shoot up their workplace as well but incidents like that don't make international news. For good or bad American media is globally pervasive, so anything that happens here becomes readily available around the world. Everyone around the world knows of CNN, FOX and MSNBC... and readily go there for 'news'. Ask those same people to name international news sources on par with these from other countries and the most they'll volunteer is the BBC or Al-Jazeera. It takes something exceptional happening in other countries to make news internationally, but if America only fart people like you could not only describe the smell, but diagnose what America had fuh lunch as well.
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That is not a fair argument. Weary was referring to this type of event and not attributing the 2nd ammendment as The Cause of all gun violence in teh US.
Have you been following the discussion?I have to ask because there's no way you could have read her initial statements and say that she wasn't attributing workplace violence to the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.
Well Texas is d wild wild west so d showin it. D want d right 2 bear arms so bear this is d effect.
D culture of wild wild west is dat whether d shootin happen on an army base is insignificant. So it may have been easier 2 get d gun in dis instance. D fact is dat compare to other developed countries especially their colleagues in Europe where dey eh have d right to bare arms d number of these instances are far less. I am sure you would have read about it in your extensive readings.
The quotes are there plain as day for all to read... there is a clear link being made between workplace shootings like these and "the right to bear arms". If you have some alternate interpretation as to the meaning inherent in the bolded statements then I'm more than willing to hear it.
The "causes" for high rate of gun violence will be multiple and can (and most likely will) be different for each country. Clearly a lot of US gun violence is crime related and committed using illegal weapons. However the rate of crime and lawlessness in these “embattled” countries like Jamaica, Colombia, Trinidad and Brazil is a lot higher than in the US. So the question would be why is the US even in the same neighbourhood with those countries in terms of numbers.
The U.S. has over 300 million people... Colombia 45 million. In fact of the countries you mentioned only Brazil remotely comes close with just under 200 million inhabitants...it's understandable why the incidence of gun violence in the US will be disproportionately high. As a matter of fact, if you discount the numbers living in the Amazon and other sparsely populated areas where presumably people aren't shooting each other as much, the true incidence of gun violence in these countries would dwarf anything seen in the US.
More to the point though, comparing total gun-related murders conceals the phenomenon surrounding this particular type of crime where a disturbed, heretofore, non-criminal individual legally purchases semi-automatic weapons, weapons whose only purpose is to be as deadly as possible. It is reasonable to suggest that those types of killings can be curtailed by better gun control.
Really how? Particularly in light of the fact that the individual has no prior history of criminality? In 1976 Washington DC instituted a virtual ban on handgun ownership. Between 1976 and 1991 DC's murder rate rose 200% while the US in general experienced a 12% increase. I don't have the figures readily at hand, but I can guarantee you that the vast number of these murders involved handgun. Want to make the argument that better gun control would prevent handgun violence again? The percentage of homes with guns in the US is roughly 49%. In Finland it's 50%... why is it that the Finns have more lax gun control (legally-owned weapons more widely available) yet they don't come nearly as close to the US in the incidence of gun violence? Is the problem really "better gun control"?
I am all in favor of gun control, having never owned a gun and having little desire to do so. It is entirely reasonable to ask if better gun control would have made a difference in cases such as these. It is plain silly however to simplistically attribute crimes such as these to the Constitutional right to bear arms, or to blame them on insufficient gun control. Gun control legislation only affects the availability of legal guns. An individual like this who is hell-bent on mayhem likely isn't goint to be hindered by some gun law... if he's intent on killing he'll find some way legal or illegal to get a gun. Focusing the debate on gun control ignores the larger reality that the problem lies with the individual and not with gun laws.
To question the effect of gun control on US gun violence a better comparison for the US would be similarly developed, affluent countries like Canada and other G7 nations that do have stronger gun control. Even accounting for economic differences and general crime statistics the comparison is stark from the numbers you posted below. The US is 3 times the rate of Canada and France, 7 times that of Italy and more than ten times that of Germany.
To begin with you simply cannot separate the overall incidence of crime from any discussion of gun violence. For a number of reasons the US has a higher rate of criminality, much of which is tied to the drug trade. Much of the world's production of narcotics come from South America, with a smaller trade coming from Asian countries such as Afghanistan and the former Soviet Republics. A disproportionate amount of the global narcotic output ends up in the US, simply because it's easier to get the drugs from SA to North American markets than it is to send it to Europe. Demand analysis aside, the supply to Canada would also be affected by the fact that market in the US is so lucrative.... consequently there is more narcotics here in the US than probably anywhere else outside of South America. The correlation between gun violence and the incidence of illegal drugs is one any urban child could make... and is routinely noted by criminologists here in the US. Withouth going into it much further, drug-related crime is the prime reason why the US has a disproportionate inciddence of gun-related violence.
However you guys want to parse it weary was not too far off. Her statement was about the gun culture in the US facilitating these types of tragedies and that the cost of life has to be borne by the society that “loves their guns”. Such a society cannot have it both ways. Just as the parent whose child discharges a family weapon, accidentally or on purpose, has to bear responsibility. In this instance this was a weapon obtained as a civilian.
It is shocking to me that someone who has lived here (presumably) as long as you have, and seemingly as intelligent as you are would endorse statements as unintelligent as these. The sheer volume and polarizing nature of the debate over gun-control would seemingly nullify any talk about this being a gun-loving society. For all her claims about being familiar with the US Constitution, as specious a claim as that might be, it is clear that Weary fails to appreciate the context within which the 2nd Amendment came about, and why it hasn't yet been repealed. This is a society that was borne of distrust of government. One tool used by the British rulers was to prevent colonial residents from owning arms... making it that much easier to control a restive population. Therefore written into the Constitution was a prohibition against government establishing an absolute ban on gun-ownership. It had nothing to do with "loving guns" then... it has nothing to do with "loving guns" now.
The true "gun-loving" population is fairly small. A larger percent of opponents to gun-control simply don't want government to interfere with their right to own a gun, should they so desire to own a gun. It's an irrational stance no different from that of many opponents to the current proposed healthcare overhaul... they don't want government involvement in what they see as their private affairs... it's not that they "love" not having health insurance. And then separate from these nut-jobs, is a number of people who favor gun ownership because they see it as a necessity in a society riddled by crime. The long and the short of it being that the gun debate is hardly as black and white as the two of you are trying to make it. It's not about people "loving their guns". This is important because it is the "gun-loving culture" (mentality) that is being implicated here, when in fact such 'culture' or mentality is hardly pervasive. Such a simplistic attribution if often made by people who don't live here and who still see American society as being homogenous, when in fact there is no ONE American society, and no ONE American culture. It varies by region among other things.
There will be disturbed people everywhere but these cases will always be more prevalent and more costly when there is easy access to weapons that do the most damage in the least amount of time. I would think that with the litany of similar incidents people would not be questioning the role of legalizing and promoting these weapons in these events.
On a sidenote it would be interesting to know whether this weapon could have been as easily obtained in MD/VA.
You do realize that this man used handguns and not assault rifles... right? I have to confess that even I find this surprising, because I couldn't fathom someone shooting up a military base with handguns. In my mind there will be other armed soldiers nearby who would be able to take out the shooter before he could shoot as many people as this man did. The assumption was that this had to be some quick strike act. It was only later that I came to realize how this became possible, since as the Colonel said... that is their home, they don't walk around there strapped.
As for the last question, I don't know how the laws relate to Texas, but MD and VA likely only require a photo ID, clean criminal history and a three-day wait... as is the case in most states.
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Thanks much, I knew you would come through with the info ;D
SO essentially, while the US had ( in 94 anyway) the highest total gun related deaths, there weren't as many murders as there were suicides. And If I'm not mistaken, suicide by firearms is the no 1. method in the us even to this day isnt it?
Yeah I saw a stat somewhere where suicide by gun is by far the preferred method. Incidentally... as this chart shows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Of all gun-related deaths in the US over 70% are suicides, with homicide constituting just under a third.... in other words, when people kill, they are more than twice as likely to use a gun on themselves than to kill someone else.
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All Large military and even semi large military bases have civilian police ..simply called base police.
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When dis become an issue of legal and illegal guns. D issue is y yankees luv 2 go postal. We neva was talkin bout gun violence every country have an issue wit gun violence. But the good ole USA is the place where a man loose he wuk and 2 yrs later go shoot up d place stop changing the goal post. D gun use in Fort Hood as legal as dey come. But would a Canadian muslim in d same situation do the same ting. U are d intellectual what is d answer.
Wait... is NOT YOU who start with de 2nd Amendment talk??? The Second Amendment refers to the right to legally own guns. YOU attributed this shooting to the Second Amendment right... your very first comment in factessentially said Americans love they right to bear arms to this is the result. Now you saying is about "y yankees luv 2 go postal"... and yet you have the cheek to talk about me changing goalpost? Look yuh even bringing "Canadian muslim" into the talk as if the man religion had anything to do with him shooting these people. I am sure it have people in Canada who shoot up their workplace as well but incidents like that don't make international news. For good or bad American media is globally pervasive, so anything that happens here becomes readily available around the world. Everyone around the world knows of CNN, FOX and MSNBC... and readily go there for 'news'. Ask those same people to name international news sources on par with these from other countries and the most they'll volunteer is the BBC or Al-Jazeera. It takes something exceptional happening in other countries to make news internationally, but if America only fart people like you could not only describe the smell, but diagnose what America had fuh lunch as well.
Is not u who strt the gun violence talk? I was talkin bout d fact that is u right 2 bear arms mean like u have d right 2 use it when u get vex. U and Jc went on bout gun violence.
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
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So guns make them react so? And what is norm al as it pertains to crime? steups
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
My hypothesis ihas been clearly stated but d null hypothesis rambling on and onSo guns make them react so? And what is norm al as it pertains to crime? steups
U tell we
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Is not u who strt the gun violence talk? I was talkin bout d fact that is u right 2 bear arms mean like u have d right 2 use it when u get vex. U and Jc went on bout gun violence.
Where did you EVER say that?
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Is not u who strt the gun violence talk? I was talkin bout d fact that is u right 2 bear arms mean like u have d right 2 use it when u get vex. U and Jc went on bout gun violence.
Where did you EVER say that?
Well it was implied but I guess yuh eh get it.
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
No wonder you sporting ah gyul name like "elan", because yuh's ah f**king c**t... ah walking, breathing festering c**t. Up to now Weary ent talk about the man frustrations... the most she alluded to more than a day later into the discussion is the talk about people going postal and why that happens more in the US than other places. Even so none of what she suggested was anything to do with the individual motivation or psychological reasons. All she keep harping on was Second Amendment talk. How de f**k Second Amendment talk all of a sudden turn into "why d yankees does go postal"??
If that is what she did say from jump it wouldna have no setta long talk because it is apparent that the problem of workplace violence is more acute here than elsewhere. I have no issues with that... that is a fact that people with more degrees behind dey name dan me can't figure out. My entire opposition to her comment centers on the tenuous link she tried to establish between this shooting and 2nd Amendment rights. It shouldn't be too hard to recognize dat... but de uneducated dunce that you are it is understandable that you would struggle to recognize that... especially when yuh so busy sizing yuh head to fit up next man ass.
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UPDATE: Hasan is awake and able to talk. According to reports, the hospital spokesman announced it this morning and it is likely investigators will start their questioning immediately. Hasan was shot in the torso by a police officer. His motive is not yet clear whether it was a shooting spree or a terroristic attack.
"This is a modest tribute to those who lost their lives even as many were preparing to risk their lives for their country," Obama said in remarks delivered at the White House, which also will fly its flag at half-staff. "And it's also a recognition of the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to protect our safety and uphold our values."
Thirteen people died either at the Army base's Soldier Readiness Center or in area hospitals of injuries they sustained after being shot by alleged gunman Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, who began firing on soldiers as they prepared to deploy, Col. John Rossi, deputy commanding general at Fort Hood, said Friday during an early morning news conference.
Of the 30 people injured, 28 remained hospitalized, Rossi said. One civilian was among the 13 who died and several civilians were among the injured, he said.
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
No wonder you sporting ah gyul name like "elan", because yuh's ah f**king c**t... ah walking, breathing festering c**t. Up to now Weary ent talk about the man frustrations... the most she alluded to more than a day later into the discussion is the talk about people going postal and why that happens more in the US than other places. Even so none of what she suggested was anything to do with the individual motivation or psychological reasons. All she keep harping on was Second Amendment talk. How de f**k Second Amendment talk all of a sudden turn into "why d yankees does go postal"??
If that is what she did say from jump it wouldna have no setta long talk because it is apparent that the problem of workplace violence is more acute here than elsewhere. I have no issues with that... that is a fact that people with more degrees behind dey name dan me can't figure out. My entire opposition to her comment centers on the tenuous link she tried to establish between this shooting and 2nd Amendment rights. It shouldn't be too hard to recognize dat... but de uneducated dunce that you are it is understandable that you would struggle to recognize that... especially when yuh so busy sizing yuh head to fit up next man ass.
So once yuh frustrated is aok. Nobody else doh b frustrated.
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another impact of the 2nd amendment is that it guaranteed a market for guns (for civilians). check the subsequent growth of the civilian firearms industry and rise of the gun lobby. that's a fundamental change to the big picture. de usa woulda coulda been a very different society.
lots of innovation in that industry as well. the gun hassan had is called "the cop killer" - designed to go through kevlar. deer doh wear kevlar so draw your own conclusions.
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another impact of the 2nd amendment is that it guaranteed a market for guns (for civilians). check the subsequent growth of the civilian firearms industry and rise of the gun lobby. that's a fundamental change to the big picture. de usa woulda coulda been a very different society.
lots of innovation in that industry as well. the gun hassan had is called "the cop killer" - designed to go through kevlar. deer doh wear kevlar so draw your own conclusions.
Nah none ah dem significant d fella was frustrated
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So once yuh frustrated is aok. Nobody else doh b frustrated.
Where did I ever suggest that it was ok??
Nah none ah dem significant d fella was frustrated
That should answer the apologists who run in here saying how yuh was really questioning "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?"
It also betrays your true agenda as one more oriented to implicating the availability of guns itself... and not whether said availability makes people feel like they have a right to use it.
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When dis become an issue of legal and illegal guns. D issue is y yankees luv 2 go postal. We neva was talkin bout gun violence every country have an issue wit gun violence. But the good ole USA is the place where a man loose he wuk and 2 yrs later go shoot up d place stop changing the goal post. D gun use in Fort Hood as legal as dey come. But would a Canadian muslim in d same situation do the same ting. U are d intellectual what is d answer.
... I am sure it have people in Canada who shoot up their workplace as well but incidents like that don't make international news.
Workplace shootings in Canada are very rare .. they do happen but not to the extent as they do in the US, even when measured on a per capita scale. In 2004, there were 184 firearm fatalities and most were not workplace related.
Here are some stats on the worst mass-workplace killing in Canada from recent years. Note how how infrequent it is. Or maybe they eh reporting the one-off shooting because they doh count as mass murder ..
December 1989: 14 women killed by anti-feminist Marc Lepine at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique engineering school. Lepine wounded another 9 women and 4 men and fatally shot himself.
1975: 13 people die after being herded into a storage room in Montreal's Gargantua nightclub. Some were shot but most suffocated when the building was set on fire in what was believed to be an underworld contract hit.
September, 1992: 9 miners killed by deliberately set blast in Yellowknife's Giant Mine. Roger Warren, a striking miner, sentenced to life in prison for setting the bomb during a bitter strike-lockout.
April 1999: 4 employees killed at OC Transport transit garage in Ottawa by co-worker, Pierre Lebrun. Lebrun, who had complained of ongoing harassment in the workplace, then killed himself.
1992: 4 members of engineering faculty at Concordia University in Montreal gunned down by a disgruntled colleague-- sentenced to life in prison.
1984: 3 people killed by wild machine-gun fire when Canadian Forces Cpl. Denis Lortie invades the Quebec legislature.
1992: 3 people killed and a fourth was injured after a botched robbery at a McDonald's restaurant in Sydney River, N.S. Three men were handed life sentences for the triple-slaying.
1992: 3 shot to death at Ontario Glove, a plant in Waterloo, by co-worker Patrick Dombroskie. He then drove to nearby Cambridge and surrendered.
There have also been school shootings in Canada. 14 women were killed by a madman/sicko in Montreal in '89 (see list above) The fatalities are in the last column (to the right of the year) in the table below
Altona schoolhouse shooting Altona, Manitoba, Canada October 10 1902. 2 killed
Centennial Secondary School shooting Brampton, Ontario Canada May 28 1975 . 2 killed
St Pius X High School School Ottawa, Ontario, Canada October 27 1975. 1 killed
École Polytechnique Massacre Montreal, Quebec, Canada December 6 1989. 14 killed
Concordia University massacre Montreal, Quebec, Canada August 24 1992. 4 killed
W. R. Myers High School shooting Taber, Alberta, Canada April 28 1999 . 1 killed
Dawson College shooting Montreal, Quebec, Canada September 13 2006 . 1 killed
C. W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooting Toronto, Ontario, Canada May 23 , 2007. 1 killed
Bendale Business and Technical Institute shooting Toronto, Ontario, Canada September 16 , 2008 0 killed
That is a total of 26 fatalities in over a century.
Here is an article from 2007 on US gun fatalities in 2004
Dr. Z’s Medical Report
Ed Zimney, MD
Health and Medical News You Can Use
April 24, 2007
Firearm Fatalities – The Awful Toll
The tragic murders of 32 innocent people at Virginia Tech on April 16 should be a wakeup call to the shocking fact that, on average, and in some macabre coincidence, 32 people are murdered by firearms every single day in the United States. This is based on data from 2004 (the most recent figures available) in which there were 11,624 firearm-related murders. That’s in comparison to a total of 184 firearm murders in Canada in 2004, 73 in England and Wales, 56 in Australia, 37 in Sweden, and 5 in New Zealand.
In 2004, there were 29,569 total firearm fatalities, including 16,750 suicides, 649 accidents and 235 with unknown intent. That’s 81 firearm-related deaths every single day in the United States.
The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home and raises the risk of suicide fivefold. There are approximately 194 million privately owned firearms in the U.S., including 65 million handguns. In 1998, licensed firearm dealers sold an estimated 4.4 million guns, of which 1.7 million were handguns.
In 2004, nearly 8 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under, were killed by guns every single day. Each year during 1993-1997, an average of 1,621 murderers were under the age of 18 when they took someone’s life with a gun.
The tragedy at Virginia Tech is grievously played out every day in the United States.
How many deaths will it take…
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
No wonder you sporting ah gyul name like "elan", because yuh's ah f**king c**t... ah walking, breathing festering c**t. Up to now Weary ent talk about the man frustrations... the most she alluded to more than a day later into the discussion is the talk about people going postal and why that happens more in the US than other places. Even so none of what she suggested was anything to do with the individual motivation or psychological reasons. All she keep harping on was Second Amendment talk. How de f**k Second Amendment talk all of a sudden turn into "why d yankees does go postal"??
If that is what she did say from jump it wouldna have no setta long talk because it is apparent that the problem of workplace violence is more acute here than elsewhere. I have no issues with that... that is a fact that people with more degrees behind dey name dan me can't figure out. My entire opposition to her comment centers on the tenuous link she tried to establish between this shooting and 2nd Amendment rights. It shouldn't be too hard to recognize dat... but de uneducated dunce that you are it is understandable that you would struggle to recognize that... especially when yuh so busy sizing yuh head to fit up next man ass.
WikiBakes, yuh never disappoint.
I guess you reading and taking what yuh want, is the same as me not being able to understand your myopic point of view. As well your boyish attempts at insult will go before.
My name is girlish, and you live up to yours, a powdery scavenger.
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Alyuh knowWikiBakes will try to convince ah orange that it is an apple.
Up to now he eh address the crux of the matter that Weary address, "what is the motivation for Americans to use guns to deal with frustrations, disappointments, etc?" Though you can argue that every country have it's share of gun crimes, the simplicity of killing random people because you lost your job or your wife divorce you or you are being placed in a situtation you don't want to be is absolutely dumb. This shows an inability to deal with emotions and rectify differences amicably. Remember most of these type crimes are committed by "educated" people who hold are normally valued members of the community.
In T&T, they killing people (gang wars, attempted robberies, kidnapping, crimes within the "norm" of crimes). I remember my friend getting fired and when he was going too the HR office, the HR ask for him to be escorted. The reason being, when people are fired they tend to react violently.
So as Weary ask, what is the reason these people choose this type of response to stressful situations?
No wonder you sporting ah gyul name like "elan", because yuh's ah f**king c**t... ah walking, breathing festering c**t. Up to now Weary ent talk about the man frustrations... the most she alluded to more than a day later into the discussion is the talk about people going postal and why that happens more in the US than other places. Even so none of what she suggested was anything to do with the individual motivation or psychological reasons. All she keep harping on was Second Amendment talk. How de f**k Second Amendment talk all of a sudden turn into "why d yankees does go postal"??
If that is what she did say from jump it wouldna have no setta long talk because it is apparent that the problem of workplace violence is more acute here than elsewhere. I have no issues with that... that is a fact that people with more degrees behind dey name dan me can't figure out. My entire opposition to her comment centers on the tenuous link she tried to establish between this shooting and 2nd Amendment rights. It shouldn't be too hard to recognize dat... but de uneducated dunce that you are it is understandable that you would struggle to recognize that... especially when yuh so busy sizing yuh head to fit up next man ass.
WikiBakes, yuh never disappoint.
I guess you reading and taking what yuh want, is the same as me not being able to understand your myopic point of view. As well your boyish attempts at insult will go before.
My name is girlish, and you live up to yours, a powdery scavenger.
The use of 'Social filters' is the underlying phenomenon at play here. He doh have any (i.e not knowing how to interact in a socially acceptable fashion). Or maybe he confusing that with fatigue and picong. :-\
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WikiBakes, yuh never disappoint.
I guess you reading and taking what yuh want, is the same as me not being able to understand your myopic point of view. As well your boyish attempts at insult will go before.
My name is girlish, and you live up to yours, a powdery scavenger.
Weary come back and ridicule the same "frustration" point yuh claim she was making yuh illiterate c**t. Yuh doh even f**king know what it is sheself arguing but yuh running tuh throw yuh frame in de conversation say yuh trying to "explain" what she mean. Damn ass.
btw... a shark is a predator yuh tun tun hole... not a scavenger. Ah even one ah dem li'l schoogirls yuh claim tuh be coaching coulda tell yuh dat, big f**king dunce like you.
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another impact of the 2nd amendment is that it guaranteed a market for guns (for civilians). check the subsequent growth of the civilian firearms industry and rise of the gun lobby. that's a fundamental change to the big picture. de usa woulda coulda been a very different society.
lots of innovation in that industry as well. the gun hassan had is called "the cop killer" - designed to go through kevlar. deer doh wear kevlar so draw your own conclusions.
Nah none ah dem significant d fella was frustrated
Weary girl, you know I wouldnt step on you toes for anything, but you have to explain this one to me. Your statement as written, makes it seem like you are excusing his actions because he was frustrated. I see big red flags everywhere as far as this man was concerned, and none of his actions strike me as that of a man who was frustrated. Crazy, perhaps, insane, most likely, but not frustrated.
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WikiBakes, yuh never disappoint.
I guess you reading and taking what yuh want, is the same as me not being able to understand your myopic point of view. As well your boyish attempts at insult will go before.
My name is girlish, and you live up to yours, a powdery scavenger.
Weary come back and ridicule the same "frustration" point yuh claim she was making yuh illiterate c**t. Yuh doh even f**king know what it is sheself arguing but yuh running tuh throw yuh frame in de conversation say yuh trying to "explain" what she mean. Damn ass.
btw... a shark is a predator yuh tun tun hole... not a scavenger. Ah even one ah dem li'l schoogirls yuh claim tuh be coaching coulda tell yuh dat, big f**king dunce like you.
Hahahhaaaa
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WikiBakes, yuh never disappoint.
I guess you reading and taking what yuh want, is the same as me not being able to understand your myopic point of view. As well your boyish attempts at insult will go before.
My name is girlish, and you live up to yours, a powdery scavenger.
Weary come back and ridicule the same "frustration" point yuh claim she was making yuh illiterate c**t. Yuh doh even f**king know what it is sheself arguing but yuh running tuh throw yuh frame in de conversation say yuh trying to "explain" what she mean. Damn ass.
btw... a shark is a predator yuh tun tun hole... not a scavenger. Ah even one ah dem li'l schoogirls yuh claim tuh be coaching coulda tell yuh dat, big f**king dunce like you.
WikiBakes..... and you calling me a dunce. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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another impact of the 2nd amendment is that it guaranteed a market for guns (for civilians). check the subsequent growth of the civilian firearms industry and rise of the gun lobby. that's a fundamental change to the big picture. de usa woulda coulda been a very different society.
lots of innovation in that industry as well. the gun hassan had is called "the cop killer" - designed to go through kevlar. deer doh wear kevlar so draw your own conclusions.
Nah none ah dem significant d fella was frustrated
Weary girl, you know I wouldnt step on you toes for anything, but you have to explain this one to me. Your statement as written, makes it seem like you are excusing his actions because he was frustrated. I see big red flags everywhere as far as this man was concerned, and none of his actions strike me as that of a man who was frustrated. Crazy, perhaps, insane, most likely, but not frustrated.
Cute my hypothesis is dat u yanks go postal because u have d right 2 bear arms. By extension if u have it u go use it. D bright ones among us u c I went 2 school in august say I dotish etc and I neva take d man frustrations into consideration. That is d only reason d frustations was mentioned.
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Cute my hypothesis is dat u yanks go postal because u have d right 2 bear arms. By extension if u have it u go use it. D bright ones among us u c I went 2 school in august say I dotish etc and I neva take d man frustrations into consideration. That is d only reason d frustations was mentioned.
Can you point to where anyone said you never took his frustrations into consideration? Matter of fact doh bother, I'm beginning to sense it will just be a further waste of time.
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Cute my hypothesis is dat u yanks go postal because u have d right 2 bear arms. By extension if u have it u go use it. D bright ones among us u c I went 2 school in august say I dotish etc and I neva take d man frustrations into consideration. That is d only reason d frustations was mentioned.
Can you point to where anyone said you never took his frustrations into consideration? Matter of fact doh bother, I'm beginning to sense it will just be a further waste of time.
U bring up d issue of frustration dat is yuh dependant variable. I simply stated a hypothesis.
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U bring up d issue of frustration dat is yuh dependant variable. I simply stated a hypothesis.
Oh really? Where did I bring up frustration?
...and while yuh at it show me where I said you never brought up frustration.
I am convinced some ah allyuh does be reading and not understanding what allyuh reading.
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OK Weary I think I see your point but... I respectfully disagree. Just because you have it or are allowed to, doesnt mean you will use it. For every idiot that uses their registered gun to commit mass murder or murder in general, there are hundreds more that don't. And you ignoring the multiple shootings that are committed by illegal weapons where something like the right to bear, just doesnt count.
Wasnt there a shooting recently in trinidad where an officer was gunned down? It seems like almost once a week if not more, someone dies from a shooting in Trinidad and arent all these guns illegal? What about that man, the murder suspect who was shot in the court yard? Were those hitmen carrying licensed guns? What will you blame those murders on?
You Saying that "we yanks" go postal because we have the right to bear arms, what are you going to say about the ever increasing gun related murders in Trinidad? Or doesnt it count because in the US, most of the time when some idiot takes out a firearm, they take down more than one person? Are we willing to overlook gun related crime in Trinidad because we only taking people out one at a time?
Guns, whether legal or illegal, kill people. That is a fact.
Guns kill people in several countries all over the world. That is a fact.
Guns kill people in Trinidad. That is a fact.
There are more gun related deaths in the US than anywhere else. That is a fact. However you need to take out the suicides and accidental shootings and look at just the pure murder, then break that down into legal guns and illegal guns before you make any type of judgement about Right to Bear and going postal.
Gun related crimes are on the rise. That is another fact.
High instances of firearm related death in the US can be attributed to the right to bear arms is a hypothesis. But you've already said you were just formulating a hypothesis. However in the same way people say do not equate this incident with terrorism until we have solid proof, show me your data that says specifically that R2b is the reason "we" go postal. Because you know and I know that if I formulated a hypothesis like "Trinidadians has become a cesspool of crime where the innocent are held captive and robbed of their hard earned valuables,where people are afraid to go about their normal lives for fear of being the target of a vicious crime" Or if I formulated a hypothesis like "There has to be an underground slave trade flourishing in Trinidad due to the number of missing people in trinidad every year" If I formulated any hypothesis such as these based strictly on what I read in the express or what I heard from some people living at home, you know damn well plenty people on this board would be hanging me out to dry. Let us not deal in hypothesis and supposition, let us deal with facts. And the only thing we know for sure is that some idiot shot a bunch of people on an army base. We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
Personally I believe that the media has created the environment where it is almost acceptable to go postal. Back in 98 or 99, I think, where there were several shooting instances in schools one after the other, and multiple killings, kids saw other kids, rejects acting out against their perceived abuse. The media did everything but write a handbook for these troubled teens. If you were already borderline before and you have this article telling you that so and so took out almost his entire class with a gun he bought over the internet... well there's your copycat. Psychos watch this stuff and refine their plans based on what they observed in other situations. Nothing to do with R2B. Just some follow fashions.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
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OK Weary I think I see your point but... I respectfully disagree. Just because you have it or are allowed to, doesnt mean you will use it. For every idiot that uses their registered gun to commit mass murder or murder in general, there are hundreds more that don't. And you ignoring the multiple shootings that are committed by illegal weapons where something like the right to bear, just doesnt count.
Wasnt there a shooting recently in trinidad where an officer was gunned down? It seems like almost once a week if not more, someone dies from a shooting in Trinidad and arent all these guns illegal? What about that man, the murder suspect who was shot in the court yard? Were those hitmen carrying licensed guns? What will you blame those murders on?
You Saying that "we yanks" go postal because we have the right to bear arms, what are you going to say about the ever increasing gun related murders in Trinidad? Or doesnt it count because in the US, most of the time when some idiot takes out a firearm, they take down more than one person? Are we willing to overlook gun related crime in Trinidad because we only taking people out one at a time?
Guns, whether legal or illegal, kill people. That is a fact.
Guns kill people in several countries all over the world. That is a fact.
Guns kill people in Trinidad. That is a fact.
There are more gun related deaths in the US than anywhere else. That is a fact. However you need to take out the suicides and accidental shootings and look at just the pure murder, then break that down into legal guns and illegal guns before you make any type of judgement about Right to Bear and going postal.
Gun related crimes are on the rise. That is another fact.
High instances of firearm related death in the US can be attributed to the right to bear arms is a hypothesis. But you've already said you were just formulating a hypothesis. However in the same way people say do not equate this incident with terrorism until we have solid proof, show me your data that says specifically that R2b is the reason "we" go postal. Because you know and I know that if I formulated a hypothesis like "Trinidadians has become a cesspool of crime where the innocent are held captive and robbed of their hard earned valuables,where people are afraid to go about their normal lives for fear of being the target of a vicious crime" Or if I formulated a hypothesis like "There has to be an underground slave trade flourishing in Trinidad due to the number of missing people in trinidad every year" If I formulated any hypothesis such as these based strictly on what I read in the express or what I heard from some people living at home, you know damn well plenty people on this board would be hanging me out to dry. Let us not deal in hypothesis and supposition, let us deal with facts. And the only thing we know for sure is that some idiot shot a bunch of people on an army base. We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
Personally I believe that the media has created the environment where it is almost acceptable to go postal. Back in 98 or 99, I think, where there were several shooting instances in schools one after the other, and multiple killings, kids saw other kids, rejects acting out against their perceived abuse. The media did everything but write a handbook for these troubled teens. If you were already borderline before and you have this article telling you that so and so took out almost his entire class with a gun he bought over the internet... well there's your copycat. Psychos watch this stuff and refine their plans based on what they observed in other situations. Nothing to do with R2B. Just some follow fashions.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
Agree that crime is eveywhere but I was linkin d number of of goin postal shootings in d US as compare 2 other so call ist world countries. My hypothesis is at since it is common in d US because u have a right 2 bear arms. I eh talkin crime in particular I eh say d media eh play a role etc. I just wondering y in d US a shrink can go postal. Again I say if a Canadian was in d same situation would there be d same result?
Me eh say meh hypothesis right but I blieve I have a right to have d hypothesis even thou I went 2 school in august.
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very interesting!
http://www.guninformation.org/
MYTH: Keeping guns in the home increases personal protection.
TRUTH: Obviously, self defense is not a good argument against gun control since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide. Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) (source) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide (source). Guns make it more likely that a suicide attempt will be successful than if other means were used such as sleeping pills.
MYTH:"Guns don't kill, people kill people" is a good argument against gun control.
TRUTH: This pro-gun argument makes about as much sense as claiming that "glasses don't see, eyes see" is a good argument against wearing glasses. Glasses are a tool which help people to see just as guns are a tool that help people to kill and injure others. Empirical research indicates that firearms increase the chances that a crime will turn deadly. A study done by the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence reported that a victim is about five times more likely to survive if an attacker is armed with a knife rather than a gun (source). Furthermore, The International Crime Victim Survey concluded that there is a correlation between gun ownership and an increase in both homicide and suicide. "The present study, based on a sample of eighteen countries, confirms the result of previous work based on the 14 countries surveyed during the first International Crime Survey. Substantial correlations were found between gun ownership and gun-related as well as total homicide and suicide rates. Widespread gun ownership has not been found to reduce the likelihood of fatal events committed with other means. Thus, people do not turn to knives and other potentially lethal weapons less often when more guns are available, but more guns usually means more victims of homicide and suicide." (source- PDF File).
MYTH: Guns are used defensively 2.5 million times each year in the US.
TRUTH: Gary Kleck conducted a survey which concluded that 2.5 million people in the US each year use guns to defend themselves. One percent of the US population is between 2 and 3 million. So if only one percent of the survey respondents had answered the survey dishonestly that would make the results of the survey inaccurate by millions. According to the NCVS (National Crime Victim Survey) guns are used defensively less than 100,000 times each year (source). The NCVS surveyed over 90,000 people. In contrast, Kleck only surveyed about 5,000 people. Thus it would be reasonable to conclude that the NCVS provides a more reliable estimate of the number of defensive gun uses in the US. An article published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern)87 (1997): 1430 revealed that using methods similiar to Kleck's, it could be concluded that nearly 20 million Americans have seen aircraft from another planet and that one million Americans have had contact with aliens.
"Since a small percentage of people may report virtually anything on a telephone survey, there are serious risks of overestimation in using such surveys to measure rare events. The problem becomes particularly severe when the issue has even a remote possibility of positive social desirability response bias. Consider the responses to a national random-digit-dial telephone survey of over 1500 adults conducted in May 1994 by ABC News and the Washington Post. [34] One question asked: 'Have you yourself ever seen anything that you believe was a spacecraft from another planet?' [Page 1438] Ten percent of respondents answered in the affirmative. These 150 individuals were then asked, 'Have you personally ever been in contact with aliens from another planet or not?' and 6% answered 'Yes.'By extrapolating to the national population, we might conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen spacecraft from another planet, and over a million have been in personal contact with aliens from other planets. That more than a million Americans had contact with aliens would be incredible news--but not the kind actively publicized by reputable scientists."(source)
MYTH: A decrease in crime in Kennesaw, Georgia after it passed a law which required people to keep a firearm in their homes shows that guns reduce crime.
TRUTH: Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig explain, "The case of Kennesaw, Georgia, which adopted an ordinance in 1982 requiring every household to keep a gun, has been prominent. There have been several published analyses of the burglary trends in Kennesaw around the time of the ordinance, with contradictory results. In any event, this is not a good test of the deterrence hypothesis, since the ordinance was purely symbolic. Most homes in Kennesaw already had a gun before the ordinance, and it seems unlikely the ordinance had any effect on prevalence since there was no penalty specified in the law for refusal to comply." ("Guns and Burglary", Evaluating Gun Policy, pages 81-82)
The gun ownership rate of Kennesaw could have actually decreased because there has been a big increase in the population of Kennesaw since 1982, and it's not certain how many of the new residents abide by the ordinance. Nationwide the gun ownership rate has decreased according to the General Social Survey. So if Kennesaw has followed nationwide trends the gun ownership rate in Kennesaw would have also declined.
MYTH: People in Switzerland are heavily armed. There is an assault weapon in every Swiss home.
TRUTH: It's true that Swiss soldiers are required to keep their assault rifles at home. How big is the Swiss Army? 400,000 (source). There are about 3 million Swiss households (source- PDF file). 400,000/3,000,000= 0.133. Therefore, there is a military assault rifle in about 13% of Swiss homes. Switzerland also has rather strict gun control laws. In Switzerland a permit is required in order to purchase a weapon (The permit shows that you are at least 18 and don't have a criminal record). A permit is also required to carrry a weapon. Such a permit is mostly issued to people who work in security-type occupations. To obtain this permit, you have to demonstrate that you need to carry a weapon and that you know how to handle a gun safely and have knowledge of the law regarding firearms use (source). Soldiers in the Swiss Army are required to store their military weapons at home under lock and key and to undergo regular training. Strict gun laws in Switzerland minimize the dangers of gun ownership. However, such dangers can not be completely eliminated as illustrated by the case of Friedrich Leibacher who rushed into a session of parliament in the Swiss town of Zug. He used his Swiss Army assault rifle and a grenade to murder fourteen people. Eleven of these people were lawmakers (source) .
MYTH: The 1976 handgun ban in Washington D.C. caused an increase in crime.
TRUTH: The handgun ban has prevented 47 deaths each year (source) Gun control has saved lives. Let's look at a graph that displays information about the homicide rate in the District of Columbia a decade before the ban and a decade after. There are random fluctuations in the crime rate from year to year so it's best to look at homicide data from many years. In the decade preceding the ban, the homicide rate exceeded 35 per 100,000 4 times. In the decade following the ban this happened only once. The average homicide rate of the ten years that followed the ban was lower than the homicide rate of the previous decade. Was this part of a general decrease in homicide that would have happened without the ban? If that were so you would expect the non-gun homicide rate to have declined as well as the gun homicide rate. However, there was only a statistically significant decrease in the number of homicides that involved firearms.
MYTH: If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.
TRUTH: If you outlaw guns, very few criminals will have guns. In America guns start out legal. Then they enter the black market one way or the other (source). So if you have less legal guns then there will less guns entering the black market and consequently less outlaws owning guns. Think about it. Nations with very strict gun control laws such as the UK, Australia, and Japan have much lower gun crime rates than the US. The most probable explanation for this is that criminals in the US have much greater access to guns due to less gun control. Saying "If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns" is very misleading and completely absurd. If you outlaw guns, less outlaws will have guns. Would you rather have more or less outlaws owning guns? The answer is obvious.
MYTH:Gun ownership is a protection against political tyranny.
TRUTH: Private ownership of guns was very common under Saddam Hussein's regime (source).It certainly didn't protect the Iraqi people against political tyranny. Gun ownership was legalized in Germany in 1928, five years before Hitler rose to power. Despite the claims of pro-gun activists, gun ownership did nothing to stop a tyrant like Hitler from seizing power. In 1938, Germany's gun laws were relaxed except in the case of Jews. Although the gun lobby has tried to associate racism with gun control, white supremacists have often praised the Nazis for being pro-gun and have opposed gun control. An example of that is this quote: "If you register your gun with anybody, you're a nut! When the conspiracy comes for your firearm, give it to 'em like this grand dragon is going to - right between the eyes." -Klu Klux Klan (Richmond Times- Dispatch, July 5, 1967)
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We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
imagine de military have hassan consoling soldiers coming back from tours, listening to their horror stories and then they promote him to major and send him to the same hell-on-earth he hearing about.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
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funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
^^^ the same could be said of any weapon.
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We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
imagine de military have hassan consoling soldiers coming back from tours, listening to their horror stories and then they promote him to major and send him to the same hell-on-earth he hearing about.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
His job was never to console anyone! he is a psychiatrist!
He cannot have been such a bad soldier as they are portraying him to be, the US system is based on meritocracy and not seniority. One letter of reprimand or inadequate performance evaluations would have (should have) stopped him dead in his promotional tracks! especially for an officer where the bar is held much higher. Something about that does not add up to me.
You don't promote a man to Major who is unsuitable for command! medial corps or otherwise.
Soldiers are treated for the single purpose of reading them for return to the front lines.
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We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
imagine de military have hassan consoling soldiers coming back from tours, listening to their horror stories and then they promote him to major and send him to the same hell-on-earth he hearing about.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
Ribbit, as the wife of an ex-army who saw a lot of things, I am not discounting PTSD you understand? I am saying that we DON"T know. We have friends who went through hell, some of them served alongside my husband and there are things that they do not talk about. My husband got out of the army several years ago. But they came to our door four years ago and wanted him to come back and he almost did it. After all that he had seen, he almost went back in. I asked him why and the best that he could come up with was that it was his job.
I have seen first hand what PTSD is. But I saw it in people who were there. On the frontlines, taking heat. A friend of ours fell out of a helicopter in the field and to this day cringes when a medivac flies over the hospital. Another friend, pilot, got out and nurses his nightmares with pot. These people lived the hell that some of us can barely imagine. But they didnt go out and shoot up a base. And one thing that came through from talking to some of these people is that most of them, not all, most of them would have gone back to the hell hole again, if they were asked. SO jumping to conclusions saying the man might have some type of stress disorder that was triggered because he heard about war and nightmares and conditions day in and day out and then get told he going there, in my opinion, I don't buy that argument. I could be wrong though.
It takes a certain type of mentality to enlist and stay in. Stay in and work your way up the ranks. Major Hassan had something to him, that kept him in and got him promoted each time. Somewhere along the lines, someone felt he earned his promotions. And all this crap about him and his reprimands and all the negative stuff we hear, the army isnt a union, you dont get promoted cause you've been in long enough. What we are seeing now is just people covering their asses because no one wants to admit that they missed warning flags that were right in front their faces.
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November 13, 2009
Second Officer Gives an Account of the Shooting at Ft. Hood
By JAMES C. McKINLEY Jr.
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/12/us/12hood03_ready/articleLarge.jpg)
Senior Sgt. Mark Todd, of the Killeen Police Department, was outside the visitors center at Fort Hood on Thursday morning.
KILLEEN, Tex. — Sgt. Kimberly D. Munley has been applauded as a hero across the nation for shooting down Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan during the bloody rampage at Fort Hood last week. The account of heroism, given by the authorities, attracted the attention of newspapers, the networks and television talk shows.
But the initial story of how she and the accused gunman went down in an exchange of gunfire now appears to be inaccurate.
Another officer, Senior Sgt. Mark Todd, 42, said in an interview Thursday that he fired the shots that brought down the gunman after Sergeant Munley was seriously wounded. A witness confirmed Sergeant Todd’s account.
In the interview, Sergeant Todd said he and Sergeant Munley had pulled up to the scene in separate cars at the same time. He said they began running up a small hill toward the building that held the processing center where unarmed soldiers reported for check-ups and vaccinations before deployment. The gunman was already outside, Sergeant Todd recalled.
“That’s when the bystanders were pointing in his direction,” he said. “And when we popped up, he was standing there, and we shouted our commands — ‘Police, drop your weapons!’ — and he just opened fire on us.”
Sergeant Todd said he was slightly in front of Sergeant Munley on the hill. “Once we took fire, she broke right and I broke left,” he said.
Sergeant Todd said he did not see Sergeant Munley get shot. He said he started to circle around the building, but then backtracked as panicked bystanders told him of the gunman’s movements.
“As it unfolded, I went a different direction and he went a different direction, and we met up in the front of the building,” he said.
Sergeant Todd said he then saw Sergeant Munley on the ground, wounded. He shouted again at the gunman to drop his weapon.
“Once I came around the front of the building, I caught his attention again, started shouting commands, and then he opened up a second time,” Sergeant Todd said. “And that’s when I returned fire, neutralized him and secured him.”
Citing the ongoing investigation, Sergeant Todd declined to give more details about the precise positions of Major Hasan, Sergeant Munley and himself during the gunfight. He also would not say how many times he shot Major Hasan with his 9 mm pistol, or what Major Hasan was doing. The whole encounter lasted only 45 seconds, he said.
Sergeant Todd’s account agrees with that of a witness who was at the processing center when the shooting occurred.
The witness, who asked not to be identified, said Major Hasan wheeled on Sergeant Munley as she rounded the corner of a building and shot her. Then Major Hasan turned his back and started putting another magazine into his semiautomatic pistol.
Sergeant Todd then rounded another corner of the building, found Major Hasan fumbling with his weapon and shot him, the witness said.
How the authorities came to issue the original version of the story, which made Sergeant Munley a national hero for several days and obscured Sergeant Todd’s role, remains unclear. (Military officials also said for several hours after the shooting that Major Hasan had been killed; he survived.)
Six days after the shooting, the military has yet to put out a full account of what happened.
On Thursday, Christopher Grey, a spokesman for Army Criminal Investigation Command, told reporters that Sergeants Todd and Munley both “engaged the armed suspect.”
“I would caution you from drawing final conclusions until all the evidence is analyzed,” Mr. Grey said at a news conference at Fort Hood, where he announced that Major Hasan had been charged in a military court with 13 counts of premeditated murder.
On Wednesday, Lt. Col. John Rossi, the fort’s deputy commander, refused to take questions about who shot Major Hasan or why the initial reports said it had been Sergeant Munley rather than Sergeant Todd.
“These questions are specific to the investigation, and I am not going to address that,” Colonel Rossi said.
Public affairs officials also declined to make Chuck Medley, the director of emergency services at the post, available. It was Mr. Medley, who oversees the post’s civilian police and fire departments, who gave the first account of how Sergeant Munley stopped the gunman.
On Tuesday night, Lt. Col. Lee Packnett, an Army spokesman, declined to say whether it was Sergeant Todd who had shot Major Hasan. “It could have been, but the final outcome will be determined by the results of the ballistics tests.” Colonel Lee said.
On Wednesday, Sergeant Todd’s wife, Lisa, said her husband had asked the Army to protect his identity immediately after the shootings.
Asked in the interview whether he had asked to be kept out of the limelight, Sergeant Todd said: “Initially I wanted to stay pretty low key. This is a tragic event. I don’t think the attention should be on me. The medics are the ones who saved everybody’s life.”
Sergeant Todd and Sergeant Munley offered their first public comments on the shooting Wednesday on the “Oprah Winfrey Show.” They did not give a detailed chronology of what happened, nor did they say who had fired and hit the suspect.
Both are members of the civilian police force at Fort Hood.
Sergeant Todd said on the talk show that after he had fired at the suspect, he kicked his weapon away and placed him in handcuffs. He said it was the first time in his 25 years in law enforcement and the military that he had used his weapon.
“I just relied back on my training,” Sergeant Todd said. “We’re trained to shoot until there is no longer a threat. And once he was laying down on his back, his weapon just fell into his hand and I’m, like, ‘O.K., now’s the time to rush him and secure him.’ “
The confusion over what happened and the quickness of the military to label someone a hero seemed reminiscent of the case of Pfc. Jessica Lynch in 2003, when the Army initially reported that Private Lynch had been captured in Iraq after a Rambo-like performance in which she emptied her weapon and was wounded in battle. It was later learned she had been badly hurt in a vehicle accident during an ambush and was being well cared for by the Iraqis.
On Friday, the day after the Fort Hood shooting, Mr. Medley said Sergeant Munley had encountered Major Hasan, pistol in hand, chasing down a bleeding soldier. She fired at him, he turned, they rushed at each other firing and both fell, Mr. Medley said.
“He turned and charged her rapidly firing, and she did what she was trained to do,” Mr. Medley said that day. He added, “She is absolutely a hero.”
Several hours later, Colonel Rossi expanded upon the story slightly in speaking to reporters. He said Sergeant Todd had arrived at the scene in the middle of the gunfight and had also fired his weapon.
The witness, however, offered a detailed account. He said he was walking in a roadway between the main building, known as the Sportsdome, and five smaller buildings. Major Hasan was headed toward the main building, the witness said, when Sergeant Munley came around the corner of a smaller building. Major Hasan wheeled on her and shot her several times, the witness said. It was unclear whether she squeezed off a shot or not, but she fell over backward, with wounds in her legs and her wrist, the witness said.
Major Hasan then turned his back and began to shove another magazine into his pistol. He did not appear wounded, the witness said. A few seconds later, Sergeant Todd came around another corner of the same building, raised his weapon and fired several times at Major Hasan, who pitched over backward and stopped moving.
“He shot her, turned away from her and was reloading when he was shot,” said the witness, who was nearby.
On the Winfrey show, Sergeant Munley, 35, said the incident was confusing and chaotic. “There were many people outside pointing to where this individual was apparently located,” she said. “When I got out of my vehicle and ran up the hill, that’s when it started getting bad and we started encountering fire.”
Sergeant Todd, a native of San Diego, has spent most of his adult life as a military police officer in the Army. A specialist in training police dogs, he left the military police in 2007, after 25 years, to join the civilian force at Fort Hood. He has served at four bases in the United States and two in Germany. Joining the civilian force at Fort Hood was supposed to be a second, quieter career for him, he said in the interview.
He said he was not troubled about having shot Major Hasan, whose pistol, he said, ”looked like a howitzer” in his hand.
“There is a certain amount of fear, but you have to control it,” Sergeant Todd said. “You rely on your training, and your training takes over.”
Liz Robbins and Jonathan Miles contributed reporting from New York.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us/13hood.html
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Feel free to draw your own conclusions...
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What conclusions Mr. Bakes??
Well IMHO here's the most obvious one some people will dwell on. For the past several days the country has sung the praises of the white female officer who took down the big bad Major, only now to discover that it may have been a fellow black officer who at first glance seems to be very humble about the whole thing. Will we see Sgt. Todd fist-bumping the president and hi-fiving the first lady at thanksgiving dinner? Or will we just pray that it all blows over soon? After all who wants to admit that they might have erronously celebrated the wrong hero?
Or what about the glaring fact that once again the army cant get the facts right. Or are they just feeding the public info on a need to know basis.... changing the stories when it suits them. Are we really sure Hassan is alive? I haven't seen any leaked pictures of him in a hospital bed have you? Nope he seems to be more heavily guarded than Fort Hood. Which I just realized was a really bad comparison.
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I see elements of both... you can question the motives of the army in rushing to celebrate Sgt. Mumley.
or..
You can question the forthrightness of the military brass and their ability to get and disseminate accurate info.
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http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=171919257479 and it have a facebook group with over 20,000 member "Sgt. Kimberly Munley: A Real American Hero!" but she aint shoot the man lol.
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http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=171919257479 and it have a facebook group with over 20,000 member "Sgt. Kimberly Munley: A Real American Hero!" but she aint shoot the man lol.
Doh matter she get she 15 min
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We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
imagine de military have hassan consoling soldiers coming back from tours, listening to their horror stories and then they promote him to major and send him to the same hell-on-earth he hearing about.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
His job was never to console anyone! he is a psychiatrist!
He cannot have been such a bad soldier as they are portraying him to be, the US system is based on meritocracy and not seniority. One letter of reprimand or inadequate performance evaluations would have (should have) stopped him dead in his promotional tracks! especially for an officer where the bar is held much higher. Something about that does not add up to me.
You don't promote a man to Major who is unsuitable for command! medial corps or otherwise.
Soldiers are treated for the single purpose of reading them for return to the front lines.
We dont know if he frustrated, we dont know if he have some kind of PTSD.
imagine de military have hassan consoling soldiers coming back from tours, listening to their horror stories and then they promote him to major and send him to the same hell-on-earth he hearing about.
Here's something else to think about. Guns, legal guns (and sometime illegal ones) are used to save lives, to ward off would be attackers, to scare off burglers, sometimes without taking any lives at all. And guns probably save more lives per year than they take. Why don't we hear about that in the media?
funny how an absence of guns does save lives too. here's another thing a gun does. a gun indirectly puts a price on life; especially those guns designed specifically for humans.
Ribbit, as the wife of an ex-army who saw a lot of things, I am not discounting PTSD you understand? I am saying that we DON"T know. We have friends who went through hell, some of them served alongside my husband and there are things that they do not talk about. My husband got out of the army several years ago. But they came to our door four years ago and wanted him to come back and he almost did it. After all that he had seen, he almost went back in. I asked him why and the best that he could come up with was that it was his job.
I have seen first hand what PTSD is. But I saw it in people who were there. On the frontlines, taking heat. A friend of ours fell out of a helicopter in the field and to this day cringes when a medivac flies over the hospital. Another friend, pilot, got out and nurses his nightmares with pot. These people lived the hell that some of us can barely imagine. But they didnt go out and shoot up a base. And one thing that came through from talking to some of these people is that most of them, not all, most of them would have gone back to the hell hole again, if they were asked. SO jumping to conclusions saying the man might have some type of stress disorder that was triggered because he heard about war and nightmares and conditions day in and day out and then get told he going there, in my opinion, I don't buy that argument. I could be wrong though.
It takes a certain type of mentality to enlist and stay in. Stay in and work your way up the ranks. Major Hassan had something to him, that kept him in and got him promoted each time. Somewhere along the lines, someone felt he earned his promotions. And all this crap about him and his reprimands and all the negative stuff we hear, the army isnt a union, you dont get promoted cause you've been in long enough. What we are seeing now is just people covering their asses because no one wants to admit that they missed warning flags that were right in front their faces.
fact is, some near to the action and some far. major hasan clearly wasn't ready for de front lines.