Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: truetrini on November 26, 2009, 08:55:15 PM
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Irish Catholic Church apologises for abuse by priests
Cardinal Sean Brady
Cardinal Brady said children's welfare was now a priority
The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland has said he is deeply sorry and ashamed about the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests.
Cardinal Sean Brady also apologised for the way the Church covered up the abuse, which happened in Dublin.
He spoke after an Irish government report revealed abuse over decades, a systematic cover-up by the Church, and a lack of action by the Irish police.
The Church put its own reputation ahead of the welfare of children, it found.
The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin covered a period from 1975 to 2004.
No-one is above the law in this country
Cardinal Sean Brady
Some offending priests were shifted from parish to parish, leaving them free to abuse again.
Cardinal Brady apologised to the victims and their families.
"I am deeply sorry and I am ashamed," he said.
The report also said that state authorities facilitated the cover-up by allowing the Church to operate outside the law.
Cardinal Brady extended his apology to all the people of Ireland for the lack of action by the Church.
"No-one is above the law in this country.
"Every Catholic should comply fully with their obligations to the civil law and co-operate with the Gardai in the reporting and investigation of any crime."
He said children's welfare was now a priority for the Church. (before dat was rapist priests)
'Sorrow and shame'
The Irish government also immediately apologised.
Victim Marie Collins: "This is the end of a very long road"
"Whatever the historical and societal reasons for this, the government... apologises, without reservation or equivocation, for failures by the agencies of the state in dealing with this issue," a government statement said.
The report investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests made by 320 children. Eleven priests were convicted of sexual assaults on children.
Irish Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern vowed to bring those who had carried out the abuse to justice, regardless of the amount of time that had passed.
Cardinal Brady's words were echoed by the current Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, who said he offered "to each and every survivor, my apology, my sorrow and my shame for what happened to them".
Archbishops of Dublin, clockwise from top left: John Charles McQuaid, Dermot Ryan, Desmond Connell and Kevin McNamara
Four archbishops turned a blind eye to child abuse
The report found that four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.
The report states that senior members of the police regarded priests as being outside their remit and it claims some police officers reported abuse complaints to Church authorities instead of carrying out their own investigation.
The commissioner of the Irish police, Fachtna Murphy, apologised for the police failure to protect victims.
The Commission said all complaints of clerical child sexual abuse are now reported to police.
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NOT FAR ENOUGH
just a few Short years ago they sent a Fowl f**king Priest here to Victoria.
The WHOLE church is ROTTEN to the core and their MEMBERS, every single one, are complicit
I only talking about the RC Church here
every priest should have their member and two sons REMOVED.....and the Pope charged ;).......this is a pipe dream
so.....anyone ever read this
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn13/forgottenroots.htm
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Why yuh doh make ah thread bout what polpot, starlin, lennin, mow ste tong, kim in north korea, cruchkev, the fella from chzec rep( ah forgot his name) and all the atheist leaders who practice nepotism over the yrs and were responsible for the annihilation of hundreds of millions peasants!!!
is shame yuh doh have so??! like the atheist leaders was any better!
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Why yuh doh make ah thread bout what polpot, starlin, lennin, mow ste tong, kim in north korea, cruchkev, the fella from chzec rep( ah forgot his name) and all the atheist leaders who practice nepotism over the yrs and were responsible for annihilation of hundreds of millions peasant!!!
is shame yuh doh have so??! like the atheist leaders was any better!
Well said JC.
The issue here is power and control not religion per se. No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior. It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.
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Well said JC!
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f**keries JC! And the rest ah followers.
Those leaders are not spreading the Gospel of love and forgiveness they were brytal despotic rulers, such was expected of them.
Are you saying that Christians are not diffferent from Communist leaders?
wELL i AGREE....AS MANY OF THE rOMAN cATHOLIC LEADERS WERE COMMUNIST OR MURDERERS.
gO FACK ALLYUH SELF.
There is a GREAT difference between those who claim to be purveyors of love. The ENTIRS Roman Catholic Organization is full of shit. Hiding child abusers for years, transferring them to continue their rape of innocents and claim God loves you while they are doing it.
We know what to expect from killers and those who want power....those baby rapers are more reprehensible any day!
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Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
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Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
Anger and hate?
You speculated and thats what you unearthed?
lol
Don't flatter yourself.
IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....
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Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
Anger and hate?
You speculated and thats what you unearthed?
lol
Don't flatter yourself.
IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....
now where did I ever say it was OK? And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself? You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.
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Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
Anger and hate?
You speculated and thats what you unearthed?
lol
Don't flatter yourself.
IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....
now where did I ever say it was OK? And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself? You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.
I read and I understood. I am not consumed by hate, just the facking hypocrisy.
So what of Pol Pot and Stalin et all murdered?
Did they claim to be havens for the down trodden? A place where children are supposed to be safe?
NOPE!
The Church is supposed to exactly that.. a place where children are nutured and safe, yet them nasty modder c**ts were raping and covering it up, and you have the gall to talk to me about hate?
lol
As I said don't flatter yourself, you cannot claim to know if I am consumed by hate....I am not, yet I hate those f**kers good and proper.
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Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
Anger and hate?
You speculated and thats what you unearthed?
lol
Don't flatter yourself.
IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....
now where did I ever say it was OK? And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself? You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.
I read and I understood. I am not consumed by hate, just the facking hypocrisy.
So what of Pol Pot and Stalin et all murdered?
Did they claim to be havens for the down trodden? A place where children are supposed to be safe?
NOPE!
The Church is supposed to exactly that.. a place where children are nutured and safe, yet them nasty modder c**ts were raping and covering it up, and you have the gall to talk to me about hate?
.
lol
As I said don't flatter yourself, you cannot claim to know if I am consumed by hate....I am not, yet I hate those f**kers good and proper.
awright ... the operative word I used is "Appear". I can only go by the angry and hateful rants in you posts that are full of expletives. So if you dont want me to comment on them, then doh post them. If you dont want people to assume that you are full of anger and hate then tone down your posts. If if you dont want to tone them down, then doh get worked up when people conclude otherwise.
Glad you clarified your position so I now know that you are NOT consumed by hate. Because your posts that attack religion at every opportunity are tiresome and annoying.
I also agree that the church is supposed to be built on love and many individuals in the church have abused the trust given to them. NO question. But to tar and feather all of Christianity (as the sarcasm in the name of your thread implies), is misleading.
And as far as those other despots go, they also abused the trust of the people in their nations. Their approach was different. They use a terror and violence to exercise their control. These recent bad priests use duplicity.
But I have to admit, you does make this board lively at times. ;)
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LOL listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.
The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.
They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.
They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.
They are an evil f**king empire.
You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all
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LOL listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.
The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.
They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.
They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.
They are an evil f**king empire.
You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all
WDMC i readin!. you is d same one who does be quick to judge and fight down anybody who post suggest dey believe in God, den yuh does turn around same speed an bombard d thread wid yuh atheist beliefs. wat kinda hypocrite ting is dat ???
so is only u allowed to have an opinion on someting? nobody cyah judge your statements but u cud judge everybody own. ::)
STEUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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LOL listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.
The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.
They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.
They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.
They are an evil f**king empire.
You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all
WDMC i readin!. you is d same one who does be quick to judge and fight down anybody who post suggest dey believe in God, den yuh does turn around same speed an bombard d thread wid yuh atheist beliefs. wat kinda hypocrite ting is dat ???
so is only u allowed to have an opinion on someting? nobody cyah judge your statements but u cud judge everybody own. ::)
STEUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What you smoking? Where did I say people can't have their beliefs?
Comprehension elude you or what?
have any belief you want, judgment is something totally different, but ah guess dat pass you by?
I don't judge anyone. I make my comments if yuh disagree den good, dais yuh right.
wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.
WHEEL AND COME AGAIN....
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wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.
They are an evil f**king empire.
Yuh got to love it. "They are an evil f**king empire" sound more like opinion that fact. I tink you reading too much Dan Brown.
btw, Angels and Demons is on DVD this week. You should rent it and keep quite for a while.
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What you smoking? Where did I say people can't have their beliefs?
Comprehension elude you or what?
have any belief you want, judgment is something totally different, but ah guess dat pass you by?
I don't judge anyone. I make my comments if yuh disagree den good, dais yuh right.
wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.
WHEEL AND COME AGAIN....
Except there's nothing in any of your posts here that even has to do with religion. The abuse in Ireland has as much to do with "religion" as the campaign of the Khmer Rouge had to do with politics. just cool in his own way had it right, and whether you want to admit it or not, pecan also pegged you right on the "anger" issue as well. Call it what you will but there's a lot of latent hostility in your words when it comes to the Catholic church... and religion on the whole. From the profanity, to the caps... to the typos... it all belies your emotion and I'm pretty sure that emotion isn't love or happiness.
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wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.
They are an evil f**king empire.
Yuh got to love it. "They are an evil f**king empire" sound more like opinion that fact. I tink you reading too much Dan Brown.
btw, Angels and Demons is on DVD this week. You should rent it and keep quite for a while.
I am sure you know that they are nothing but an evil empire. hey raped and molested many children for years and covered it up. They created purgatory to sell salvation.
They started wars in the name of Jesus to conquer and subjugate.
The caps were hit by accident when I was typing, and I did not correct it, it beleis nothing!
If you look you wills ee that I even hit shift to capitalize and it did the opposite.
I hate the roman catholic church with EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING! Yes I admit it, they are evil bastard s who hide behind frocks while they destroy young lives and covered it up for centuries.
So what if the despots started wars and murdered? They were not purveyors of God's love, they were not supposed to provide succor to children. Never did they set out to do anything else but rule with a heavy hand.
I feel that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gets less flack than me when he denied the holocaust. I denounce the Catholic Church I get castigated as a hate monger. Well call it how you want to call it.
I hate Hitler, Stalin Pol Pot etc. but they are all dead and were condemned by every decent human, and I put the catholic Church in the same vein as those f**kers. So don't try to separate the church into pockets of decency versus indecency. That is NOT truthful.
From the head to the foot, that so-called Church has raped children. Right in Trinidad and Tobago we allowed them to molest and then run back to Ireland and England.
I am profane dealing with the profane. I am anger and my anger is righteous indignation.
If you are part of a commission of inquiry into the role the Catholic Church played in the long term systematic abuse of children I find it hard for any logical thinking human to find them anything BUT evil!
The abuse in Ireland has everything to do with religion as far as I am concerned, as the abuse was perpetrated by and covered up by religious men within the boundaries of a religious organization. When Cardinals, with the tacit approval of the Vatican cover up crimes within the Church for money and image, how can it not be religious? Their callous actions were taken to protect the church.
If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?
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If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?
Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to? Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?
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If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?
Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to? Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?
But, what made them feel secure in that position of authority to do what they did?
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If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?
Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to? Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
Isee your point and I acquiesce.
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Isee your point and I acquiesce.
Doh worry... God forgive yuh.
He say tuh call him...
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today
and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today
and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"
I don't think that anyone posting in this thread so far would argue that the MANY in the Christian denominations have not abused their power. From the RC church to the televangelists, so many members of the clergy have not acted morally. (and I suppose this has been the crux of TC's argument - that somehow, their sexual crimes are worse that outright despotic actions because we expect despots to be evil but we do not expect priests to be evil).
Perhaps a problem with organized religion is that it does not take into account the inherent weaknesses in its organizational structure and the lack of appropriate checks and balances. As a result, those who are already inclined to prey on the vulnerable, are attracted to religious institutions because within that structure, they can get away with it. They use the cloak of religion to trap their prey. So it is not religion per se (as I attempted to articulate earlier) that is at fault. Rather, it is the nature of the structure that attracts the bad individuals and the failure of its leaders to effectively eliminate the problem.
While much bad has been done in the name of religion, the converse is also true. Much good has also been done in the name of religion.
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The simple truth is that people are people... good or bad. Wherever there are people, you will find those that are good, and some that are bad. Added to which, I'm a firm believer that the closer you try to get to God the harder the Devil goes to work... so if some well-intentioned people enter seminary in search of (truth, understanding, purpose, some higher calling)... whatever, Satan will go to work on their weaknesses and unless they are strong enough many will fail.
Then of course one should never discount the possibility that some people are just inherent bad actors, collar or no collar.
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Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.
The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.
I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.
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Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.
The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.
I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.
"endorsed pedophilia" yuh say? Okay.
Got proof? Links? Anything?
Not that yuh have to convince me, I have no dog in this fight... but I prefer hard evidence to word of mouth or speculation, especially when it concerns claims as damning as this.
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today
and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"
I don't think that anyone posting in this thread so far would argue that the MANY in the Christian denominations have not abused their power. From the RC church to the televangelists, so many members of the clergy have not acted morally. (and I suppose this has been the crux of TC's argument - that somehow, their sexual crimes are worse that outright despotic actions because we expect despots to be evil but we do not expect priests to be evil).
Perhaps a problem with organized religion is that it does not take into account the inherent weaknesses in its organizational structure and the lack of appropriate checks and balances. As a result, those who are already inclined to prey on the vulnerable, are attracted to religious institutions because within that structure, they can get away with it. They use the cloak of religion to trap their prey. So it is not religion per se (as I attempted to articulate earlier) that is at fault. Rather, it is the nature of the structure that attracts the bad individuals and the failure of its leaders to effectively eliminate the problem.
While much bad has been done in the name of religion, the converse is also true. Much good has also been done in the name of religion.
That is exactly my point
Ever since that Roman Emperor took control of the church they have been run like a business
The teachings of Jesus have been thrown by the wayside...................but they ARE the largest Catholic Church in the world
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Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.
The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.
I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.
"endorsed pedophilia" yuh say? Okay.
Got proof? Links? Anything?
Not that yuh have to convince me, I have no dog in this fight... but I prefer hard evidence to word of mouth or speculation, especially when it concerns claims as damning as this.
Bakes when you allow admitted pedophiles to hide in the Vatican, when you allow the wholesale protection of those who engaged of pedophilia...come on man.
I don't give too much credence to this book, book it alludes to as much: "Windswept House: A Vatican Novel". By a well renowned renown Jesuit Priest Malachi Martin.
The Church goes as far as excommunicating priests who ordain women yet allow those who rape children to remain in?
You stated that the Bishops were responsible for keeping the offending pedophiles in the Proesthood, but who do those self same Bishops get their orders from? Are they not subordinate to the cardianls in Rome and the Pope?
If they are the ones responsiblke for keeping the raping priests in the church, why aren't those Bishops reprimanded and Punished? In fact these same Bishops are later promoted to cardinal!
The talk has been for decades that the Catholic Church is NOT in a position to do anything meaningful about the homosexuals and pedophiles i the church simple because MANY of those making the decisions are homos and pedos. The church would then do irreparable damage to itself.
Priests are often sent for "spiritual therapy" after being found to be pedophiles and MOST face no legal charges. Families are then paid off to keep quiet. These men are directed by the Vatican! http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=3.0.3976881520
The Vatican in issued statements stated that pedophile priests were ONLY a problem in the US....! Well at least we does prosecute them here..maybe why they could make such a staement.
Look at this: http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/09 This was in Octobe eh..../30/Vatican__Ephebophilia,_Not_Pedophilia/
Vatican: Ephebophilia, Not Pedophilia
By Julie Bolcer
Vatican X390 (Getty) | Advocate.com
The Vatican has suggested that instances of sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests would be more accurately described as ephebophilia -- attraction to mid to late adolescents -- rather than pedophilia.
Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican’s permanent observer to the United Nations, argued for the change in terminology in a statement following a meeting of the U.N. human rights council in Geneva.
"Of all priests involved in the abuses, 80 to 90 percent belong to this sexual orientation minority which is sexually engaged with adolescent boys between the ages of 11 and 17,” said Tomasi, according to London's The Guardian newspaper.
In the statement, Tomasi also attempted to deflect criticism of the Vatican’s handling of sexual abuse scandals by pointing a finger at other church bodies, reported The Guardian.
Tomasi cited statistics to argue that no more than 5% of Catholic clergy were involved in sexual abuse, claiming that the majority of American churches struggling with abuse allegations were Protestant.
FinallyZ:
From the old Pope to the new Pope:
http://www.skeptictank.org/gen4/gen02339.htm
The Vatican has come up with new guidelines for the Roman Catholic Church to handle pedophilia accusations against priests, ordering church officials worldwide to inform it swiftly of such cases and declaring them subject to secrecy.
Promoted by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the rules were approved by Pope John Paul II, who in the past has expressed solidarity with the victims of sexual abuse by clergy.
The guidelines, which are apparently aimed at centralizing Vatican control over such cases, are intended for use by Catholic dioceses and religious institutions and do not apply to government inquiries or prosecutions.
Written in Latin and prepared several months ago, the church rules were quietly published in the Holy See's official gazette. They surfaced Tuesday in the newly printed 2001 yearbook of Vatican documents.
Pedophilia cases have been a major headache for the Catholic church. Besides the sting of moral scandal, dioceses in the United States and other countries have had to deal with expensive claims for financial damages.
The new guidelines came as a letter by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a close aide of John Paul and the guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy. Ent this is de new Pope now?
He wrote that pedophile cases were subject to pontifical secrecy. Only priests should handle such cases, including those serving as judges, prosecutor or defense advocate in church tribunals. Keep it house man!
http://www.teachthefacts.org/2009/10/vatican-wants-to-stop-calling-it.html
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De Catholic Church eh Christian....it's Catholic. There's a difference. Throughout the Dark Ages, that institution has shed more Christian blood claiming them to be heretics than any other. Again...due to an abuse of power. This is just another example. To anyone understanding the nature of the Church and its role in the world...especially today....things like this is no surprise. As it is...this is just more fodder for persons who try to class all Christians as hypocrites.
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De Catholic Church eh Christian....it's Catholic. There's a difference. Throughout the Dark Ages, that institution has shed more Christian blood claiming them to be heretics than any other. Again...due to an abuse of power. This is just another example. To anyone understanding the nature of the Church and its role in the world...especially today....things like this is no surprise. As it is...this is just more fodder for persons who try to class all Christians as hypocrites.
What's the difference? What theological or doctrinal difference is there between Christian theology and Roman Catholic theology? The Church is responsible for many egregious acts over millenia, no one's arguing that, however I don't understand how that changes the Christian underpinings.
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TC I hear you... in your mind it amounted to a tacit endorsement of the abuse by the Church hierarchy. I wouldn't go that far but certainly, as I said earlier, there is much complicity there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/world/europe/27ireland.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=priest%20abuse&st=cse
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De Catholic Church eh Christian....it's Catholic. There's a difference. Throughout the Dark Ages, that institution has shed more Christian blood claiming them to be heretics than any other. Again...due to an abuse of power. This is just another example. To anyone understanding the nature of the Church and its role in the world...especially today....things like this is no surprise. As it is...this is just more fodder for persons who try to class all Christians as hypocrites.
What's the difference? What theological or doctrinal difference is there between Christian theology and Roman Catholic theology? The Church is responsible for many egregious acts over millenia, no one's arguing that, however I don't understand how that changes the Christian underpinings.
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TC I hear you... in your mind it amounted to a tacit endorsement of the abuse by the Church hierarchy. I wouldn't go that far but certainly, as I said earlier, there is much complicity there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/world/europe/27ireland.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=priest%20abuse&st=cse
When Emperor Constantine joined the church....the roman religion was assimilated into the Christian church making it into what it is today. Several doctrinal changes happened, for example priests being seen as the mediator between God and man in the place of Christ, the doctrine of purgatory, indulgences, etc. Its a whole lot. I know you a man like information with sources and ting...so i go compile dem and get back to you. But the Catholic Church persecuted Christians for years. And the abuses of power that occurred unfortunately give a skewed view of what Christ is supposed to be.
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I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles. And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?
The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.
They have admitted as much!
...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today
and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"
I don't think that anyone posting in this thread so far would argue that the MANY in the Christian denominations have not abused their power. From the RC church to the televangelists, so many members of the clergy have not acted morally. (and I suppose this has been the crux of TC's argument - that somehow, their sexual crimes are worse that outright despotic actions because we expect despots to be evil but we do not expect priests to be evil).
Perhaps a problem with organized religion is that it does not take into account the inherent weaknesses in its organizational structure and the lack of appropriate checks and balances. As a result, those who are already inclined to prey on the vulnerable, are attracted to religious institutions because within that structure, they can get away with it. They use the cloak of religion to trap their prey. So it is not religion per se (as I attempted to articulate earlier) that is at fault. Rather, it is the nature of the structure that attracts the bad individuals and the failure of its leaders to effectively eliminate the problem.
While much bad has been done in the name of religion, the converse is also true. Much good has also been done in the name of religion.
I don;t think that there is any organization in the blue world that is as ORGANIZED as the Catholic Church. What makes you think that people who like to prey find a secure haven in a church? ONLY in teh Catholic Church where they cover up, hide, and give safe haven to pedophiles for centuries.
Dat is no real church fella. That is organized crime! Catholics are the ones who make claim to holding special relationship with God, they say ALL other denominations are not really christians and are really cursed. YES read their doctrine dey say that! They claim that they are the Universal church of Jesus, the real deal....protestants are usless and apostate. DEY do say that.
They had more nazi war criminals as cardinals and priests it eh funny. If the hierachy of the Church for centuries have been covering up their crimes, making canonical law to protect dem, how dat is not religion at work?
If Manning make Smelter come to pass is de PNM dat fail, when de Pope cover up, is Trinity Cross who have a problem with religion, I prefer my stance any day.
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When Emperor Constantine joined the church....the roman religion was assimilated into the Christian church making it into what it is today. Several doctrinal changes happened, for example priests being seen as the mediator between God and man in the place of Christ, the doctrine of purgatory, indulgences, etc. Its a whole lot. I know you a man like information with sources and ting...so i go compile dem and get back to you. But the Catholic Church persecuted Christians for years. And the abuses of power that occurred unfortunately give a skewed view of what Christ is supposed to be.
The pre-Christian Roman Empire persecuted Christians, no argument there. However, starting with Constantine's adoption of Christianity as the official state religion Christians were no longer persecuted by the Church. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD brought some ecumenical changes, chief of which being the recognition of the Divinity of Christ... essentially recognizing Christ as being God incarnate. Prior to this the Church had never before officially adopted that position, and even so had to overcome a serious challenge by a rival factor led by Arius in what was known as the Arian Heresy.
There is much more that I could get into but I don't think it's necessary. All of that other stuff you mentioned, like indulgences, intercessory prayer is small thing. The Church doesn't proffer priests as mediators in the place of Christ... but they see them as alternative mediators. Subtle difference but an important difference. Not that I agree with any of it.
None of those theological deviations are sufficient to cast Catholicism as being a separate religion from Chrisitanity. If that's the case then what would you call the Eastern Orthodox Church? What about the Lutherans/Anglicans (aka the "E.C." or English Catholic church)? What about Seventh Day Adventists... doh even leh we get started on dem and doctrinal differences... same for Jehovah Witnesses. Yuh could bring yuh links, but this is not an argument that's new to me.
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When Emperor Constantine joined the church....the roman religion was assimilated into the Christian church making it into what it is today. Several doctrinal changes happened, for example priests being seen as the mediator between God and man in the place of Christ, the doctrine of purgatory, indulgences, etc. Its a whole lot. I know you a man like information with sources and ting...so i go compile dem and get back to you. But the Catholic Church persecuted Christians for years. And the abuses of power that occurred unfortunately give a skewed view of what Christ is supposed to be.
The pre-Christian Roman Empire persecuted Christians, no argument there. However, starting with Constantine's adoption of Christianity as the official state religion Christians were no longer persecuted by the Church. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD brought some ecumenical changes, chief of which being the recognition of the Divinity of Christ... essentially recognizing Christ as being God incarnate. Prior to this the Church had never before officially adopted that position, and even so had to overcome a serious challenge by a rival factor led by Arius in what was known as the Arian Heresy.
And after Constantine's so called adoption of Christianity....anything that did not comply to the church were considered heretics and persecuted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition
The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Roman Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular Catharism and Waldensians in southern France and northern Italy. These were the first inquisition movements of many that would follow.
Like the waldenses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
So much went on that Pope John Paul II apologised for many of these grievances......in an effort to re-unite protestantism with the so called mother church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologies_by_Pope_John_Paul_II
And..as time unfolds...you'll see how important this is.
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^^^ okay, so the Church suppressed what it considered heretical movements. Is this your argument that they persecuted Christians? Is this why you're saying that Roman Catholics aren't Christians?
Because I'm missing something.
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
JC, unless TT aka TC is built like Ron Jeremy, he will have much difficulty performing one of the acts you suggested.
But I think I kinda understand where he coming from. He is saying that at least with the despots, you expect that atrocious behaviour from them. But with those 'god fearing' RC, they disguised their predilections with peace and love and then pounced on the unsuspecting victims. That act of disguise i suspect is what he hates. I think he is misguided but c'est la vie.
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
And from a God fearing man, I accept your Godly benediction to go f**k myself....I know both my parents, your mohther needs to hold a lottery to find your Catholic priest father. It is amazing that peopleike you who have that Godly predisposition to know right from wrong, who have de love of jesus, Allah, Mary, and Mohammed could denigrate so easily and blightly...lol yuh stink fowl f**king BASTARD...yuh modder sucking me no need to suck myself, her lips tatoo on my toti.
Amen yuh dunce c**t
And pecan you are absolutely correct, s then how is that misguided if it is true?
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
And from a God fearing man, I accept your Godly benediction to go f**k myself....I know both my parents, your mohther needs to hold a lottery to find your Catholic priest father. It is amazing that peopleike you who have that Godly predisposition to know right from wrong, who have de love of jesus, Allah, Mary, and Mohammed could denigrate so easily and blightly...lol yuh stink fowl f**king BASTARD...yuh modder sucking me no need to suck myself, her lips tatoo on my toti.
Amen yuh dunce c**t
And pecan you are absolutely correct, s then how is that misguided if it is true?
correct about the Ron Jeremy quip or the other? If the latter, then you are misguided in the sense that despots' evil behaviour is inherently less evil that the Christian's form of evil behaviour. I think that regardless of form, they are equally evil.
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you are misguided one ...
I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
I put them on the same level...no separation from me..all de same.
as for the Ron Jeremy quip..ask JC modder about de size ah my dick..she have stretch marks on she cheeks from it! he jes want me to give he modder facial muscles ah reprieve hence his statement to suck myself.
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Ok guys no need to let the discussion dissolve into a full on cuss and diss war, because it is what it is A DISCUSSION and not an argument. JC those are his beliefs on this matter so by getting angry and cussin you are not going to do anything to change them. So you need to just chill a bit mayn lol use a different approach. Mr T I respect you for having your own beliefs and opinions and not being afraid to air them and I would like to see less cussin too. I just hope one day you can fight for God.
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saying that at least with the despots, you expect that atrocious behaviour from them. But with those 'god fearing' RC, they disguised their predilections with peace and love and then pounced on the unsuspecting victims. That act of disguise i suspect is what he hates. I think he is misguided but c'est la vie.
so
I doh understand how it is misguided
but then again ever since that Roman Emperor took the church under his wing the teachings of Christ are nowhere to be seen so the problem imho is that the CLAIM to be STILL a church since then has FAILED immensely.............so therefore imho they DO NOT represent who they claim to
my main problem is with those who do stick with them as THE sole representation of Christ here on Earth when their Actions prove otherwise.........I say again that they are NOT CHRISTLIKE and i am saddened by those who say otherwise ;)
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Ok guys no need to let the discussion dissolve into a full on cuss and diss war, because it is what it is A DISCUSSION and not an argument. JC those are his beliefs on this matter so by getting angry and cussin you are not going to do anything to change them. So you need to just chill a bit mayn lol use a different approach. Mr T I respect you for having your own beliefs and opinions and not being afraid to air them and I would like to see less cussin too. I just hope one day you can fight for God.
yuh beating yuh head against a wall. Some, including myself, have tried to get people to tone down the cussing and swearing, to no avail. But in between the cussing, some good arguments and discussions do prevail.
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saying that at least with the despots, you expect that atrocious behaviour from them. But with those 'god fearing' RC, they disguised their predilections with peace and love and then pounced on the unsuspecting victims. That act of disguise i suspect is what he hates. I think he is misguided but c'est la vie.
so
I doh understand how it is misguided
but then again ever since that Roman Emperor took the church under his wing the teachings of Christ are nowhere to be seen so the problem imho is that the CLAIM to be STILL a church since then has FAILED immensely.............so therefore imho they DO NOT represent who they claim to
my main problem is with those who do stick with them as THE sole representation of Christ here on Earth when their Actions prove otherwise.........I say again that they are NOT CHRISTLIKE and i am saddened by those who say otherwise ;)
perhaps misguided is the wrong word. What I trying to say is that TC's emphasis on one over the other seems misplaced. All a dem bad. Nobody have a monopoly on bad.
But I think it safe to safe to say that we agree that many Christians are not Christ-like and certainly do not act in a fashion that suggest they have read what Jesus preached.
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saying that at least with the despots, you expect that atrocious behaviour from them. But with those 'god fearing' RC, they disguised their predilections with peace and love and then pounced on the unsuspecting victims. That act of disguise i suspect is what he hates. I think he is misguided but c'est la vie.
so
I doh understand how it is misguided
but then again ever since that Roman Emperor took the church under his wing the teachings of Christ are nowhere to be seen so the problem imho is that the CLAIM to be STILL a church since then has FAILED immensely.............so therefore imho they DO NOT represent who they claim to
my main problem is with those who do stick with them as THE sole representation of Christ here on Earth when their Actions prove otherwise.........I say again that they are NOT CHRISTLIKE and i am saddened by those who say otherwise ;)
perhaps misguided is the wrong word. What I trying to say is that TC's emphasis on one over the other seems misplaced. All a dem bad. Nobody have a monopoly on bad.
But I think it safe to safe to say that we agree that many Christians are not Christ-like and certainly do not act in a fashion that suggest they have read what Jesus preached.
OK cool
I doh have a major problem with the "man on the street" who fall short, what does grind me are the LEADERS who literrally screw the people of the church, then expect reverence because they are the Leaders
Is very strange to me
The members of the church are taught that people who act a certain way are Damned to Hell but when their RC Church Leaders act in that same manner they GLORIFY them
VERY VERY starnge to me
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I make no separation nor emphasis...I make posts here all the time, just the ones on religion garner the most controversy..say what..Religion is as man made as is God.
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saying that at least with the despots, you expect that atrocious behaviour from them. But with those 'god fearing' RC, they disguised their predilections with peace and love and then pounced on the unsuspecting victims. That act of disguise i suspect is what he hates. I think he is misguided but c'est la vie.
so
I doh understand how it is misguided
but then again ever since that Roman Emperor took the church under his wing the teachings of Christ are nowhere to be seen so the problem imho is that the CLAIM to be STILL a church since then has FAILED immensely.............so therefore imho they DO NOT represent who they claim to
my main problem is with those who do stick with them as THE sole representation of Christ here on Earth when their Actions prove otherwise.........I say again that they are NOT CHRISTLIKE and i am saddened by those who say otherwise ;)
perhaps misguided is the wrong word. What I trying to say is that TC's emphasis on one over the other seems misplaced. All a dem bad. Nobody have a monopoly on bad.
But I think it safe to safe to say that we agree that many Christians are not Christ-like and certainly do not act in a fashion that suggest they have read what Jesus preached.
OK cool
I doh have a major problem with the "man on the street" who fall short, what does grind me are the LEADERS who literrally screw the people of the church, then expect reverence because they are the Leaders
Is very strange to me
The members of the church are taught that people who act a certain way are Damned to Hell but when their RC Church Leaders act in that same manner they GLORIFY them
VERY VERY starnge to me
West Coast that so-called Church ahs been literally f**king people for centuries, now they added little children....it is not God like, it does not repesent anything that is good, it is a war machine, run like a military and is no facking good
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I make no separation nor emphasis...I make posts here all the time, just the ones on religion garner the most controversy..say what..Religion is as man made as is God.
OK, I concede on the first two points and will continue to disagree on the last one. You do make posts all the time but you are right - the religion ones tend to take on a life of it own because it speaks to the core values of many on the forum.
And yes religion is man made. No question.
But prove to me that God is man-made or does not exist.
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I make no separation nor emphasis...I make posts here all the time, just the ones on religion garner the most controversy..say what..Religion is as man made as is God.
OK, I concede on the first two points and will continue to disagree on the last one. You do make posts all the time but you are right - the religion ones tend to take on a life of it own because it speaks to the core values of many on the forum.
And yes religion is man made. No question.
But prove to me that God is man-made or does not exist.
lol prove to me that He is real. lol I like you fella always have..I never try to convert people like de beh beh man said. I state my opinion and people take offense, their facking troubles.
Man tell me conscience invisible and cannot be proven...(science he want now) yet he wants me to believe in an invisible, gos he or nobody else could prove...steups
I make posts on evil people here all the time, once the evil involves Christian love I get hammered by assholes. Do I take a certain glee in posting christian evil... ;) maybe...but then again maybe it is becasue i like the discourse, not the assholery from JC though. He makes NO cogent arguments at all, internet shit from religious nuts...without backing or evidence and yet he wants to say conscience is not measurable, unseen and that good and bad is a religious concept..ka-ka hole
He could bad talk T&T government and the police for doing de same ting de christian church doing yet if I say Christian he want to be all over me like white on rice..de bamsee
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
And from a God fearing man, I accept your Godly benediction to go f**k myself....I know both my parents, your mohther needs to hold a lottery to find your Catholic priest father. It is amazing that peopleike you who have that Godly predisposition to know right from wrong, who have de love of jesus, Allah, Mary, and Mohammed could denigrate so easily and blightly...lol yuh stink fowl f**king BASTARD...yuh modder sucking me no need to suck myself, her lips tatoo on my toti.
Amen yuh dunce c**t
And pecan you are absolutely correct, s then how is that misguided if it is true?
I don't know what you calling denigate, but get a load of this you miserable turd!! every day for almost ah year ppl have tuh listen to your rambling on about some priest who ruptured yuh anus some 40yrs ago, and how much yuh hate religion. TBH it's gotten old and heavy on ppl's last nerve. we hear yuh already. now who's the arch denigrator??
it's like you does sleep wid that shyte on yuh mind and could hardly wait tuh open yuh sewer for ah mouth on the ppl wid yuh beefin.
big sunday and yuh dun post like about 5 times runnin off @ the mouth, yuh eh have no family tuh go by and enjoy ah sunday meal? yuh hermitt mudda facker! ah guess no body eh want yuh around dem? and let me guess why, BC yuhs ah forkin nuisance ningning fly.
i doh give ah fat monkey's ass if you hate every thing and eh believe in yuh own existence, is just that ppl doh want tuh hear it every forkinnnnn DAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!! IF IT BOTHERS YUH SOOOOO MUCH THEN GO SEE AH FORKIN THERAPIST!!! and leave ppl's ears alone!
as for my mudda, battyhole GET AH LIFE!!! i wouldn't even indulge you in that lewd behavior. imagine ah grown ass man acting like ah ten yr old, bout mudda dis and mudda that! is true i mention yuh mudda and yuh fadder, but not in that context you classless hooligan!!
and for the record . if i want tuh cuss mudda dis and mudda dat, i'm sure i could do ah much better job of it! is that all you got lame brain? remember battyhole , iz EDR i from and i could reaalll forkin cuss!! but i too grown for dat nonsense so i would leave you wid the low life title!
keep on cussing my mudda yuh sick bastard! don't stop!!! see if i care. :devil:
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Fellas this is some real good dialog going on here. :beermug: I really really had to wrestle with my view on Roman Catholicism. My personal belief is that Satan used the gov't of Rome to try to erase Christianity from the world by killing it's followers. Christianity keep growing and growing. When Constantine claimed to be Christian I believe it was a matter "If you can't beat them then join them." In making Christianity the state religion Satan now had the influence to pollute what God had planned. Rules and regulations were added that was not part of early Christianity, idol worship continued (Venus statue became Mary statue, pray for the dead, Baal worship (Sun God/Glow around the head, etc)
Anyways, my take is that Roman Catholics can be Christians (believing in Jesus Christ as their savior) However, The Roman Catholic Religion is in my opinion not a Christian organization in the truest sense.
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Roman Catholics are Christians but have gone to extreme measures and licentious acts to force their beliefs on others as was previously mentioned by bourbon whom i share the same beliefs with. I agreed with JC in that Mr. Trinity Cross you seem to stress faults in religion but not the others as JC mentioned, aren't Roman Catholics human too so they are not exempt from committing these acts which i am not justifying in any way. I don't mind the fact that you are an atheist and strongly profess that fact because you are entitled to your own beliefs and opinions but I would like to see an unbiased approach concerning these matters in the future. As time goes on we will only see the Roman Catholic Church grow stronger and more forceful than ever before. Watch the movement of the pope closely in coming times as he goes on strengthening ties with world leaders etc Im very curious as to his next move- be watchful friends.
Breds, despots are know for their cruelty, Christians for love and nurturing..so when they killing, f**king little children, I am supposed to put them on the same level as mass murderers? Well I am guy!
Mudda facker, atheist killed far more ppl than christians, and in ah short space of time too! so if yuh want someone tuh blame for yuh misserable life then write ah letter tuh yuh mudda cussin she out for forkin yuh fardder some fifty something yrs ago which resulted in your misserable existence, yuh disgruntled c@cksucker!!! and leave ppl's brains alone wid yuh beefin already!!!!!!!! go suck yuh self or get ah life ! which ever comes first!!!!!! mudda facker!
And from a God fearing man, I accept your Godly benediction to go f**k myself....I know both my parents, your mohther needs to hold a lottery to find your Catholic priest father. It is amazing that peopleike you who have that Godly predisposition to know right from wrong, who have de love of jesus, Allah, Mary, and Mohammed could denigrate so easily and blightly...lol yuh stink fowl f**king BASTARD...yuh modder sucking me no need to suck myself, her lips tatoo on my toti.
Amen yuh dunce c**t
And pecan you are absolutely correct, s then how is that misguided if it is true?
I don't know what you calling denigate, but get a load of this you miserable turd!! every day for almost ah year ppl have tuh listen to your rambling on about some priest who ruptured yuh anus some 40yrs ago, and how much yuh hate religion. TBH it's gotten old and heavy on ppl's last nerve. we hear yuh already. now who's the arch denigrator??
it's like you does sleep wid that shyte on yuh mind and could hardly wait tuh open yuh sewer for ah mouth on the ppl wid yuh beefin.
big sunday and yuh dun post like about 5 times runnin off @ the mouth, yuh eh have no family tuh go by and enjoy ah sunday meal? yuh hermitt mudda facker! ah guess no body eh want yuh around dem? and let me guess why, BC yuhs ah forkin nuisance ningning fly.
i doh give ah fat monkey's ass if you hate every thing and eh believe in yuh own existence, is just that ppl doh want tuh hear it every forkinnnnn DAAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!! IF IT BOTHERS YUH SOOOOO MUCH THEN GO SEE AH FORKIN THERAPIST!!! and leave ppl's ears alone!
as for my mudda, battyhole GET AH LIFE!!! i wouldn't even indulge you in that lewd behavior. imagine ah grown ass man acting like ah ten yr old, bout mudda dis and mudda that! is true i mention yuh mudda and yuh fadder, but not in that context you classless hooligan!!
and for the record . if i want tuh cuss mudda dis and mudda dat, i'm sure i could do ah much better job of it! is that all you got lame brain? remember battyhole , iz EDR i from and i could reaalll forkin cuss!! but i too grown for dat nonsense so i would leave you wid the low life title!
keep on cussing my mudda yuh sick bastard! don't stop!!! see if i care. :devil:
I make anti religious posts everyday? I started cussing your mother without provacation..who mention mother first?
I ever said a priest ruptured my anus? Is that your only logical God given assessment?
You with your degree in Biology, your degree in Politics, your degree in psychology...your degtree in Islamic Studies,a nd Christian studies.
You who have God in you, acting like a 42nd street biatch..I thought Giuliani ran you whores out of his town> Maybe you jes relocate?
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Oh gorm!!!!! come nah fellas. Overs the small talk.
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I make no separation nor emphasis...I make posts here all the time, just the ones on religion garner the most controversy..say what..Religion is as man made as is God.
OK, I concede on the first two points and will continue to disagree on the last one. You do make posts all the time but you are right - the religion ones tend to take on a life of it own because it speaks to the core values of many on the forum.
And yes religion is man made. No question.
But prove to me that God is man-made or does not exist.
lol prove to me that He is real. lol
I don't have proof. I have faith. The foundation of my belief is faith, which by it's nature, cannot have proof.
I have taking the philosophical leap forward with Faith.
Perhaps you will get there one day, perhaps not. The decision to make that journey is yours alone.
I chose to believe and this is a personal decision that I have made in this journey we call life.
The right or wrong of the decision manifests in how we behave and treat other people as a result of our decision.
There are good atheist and bad atheists
There are good Christians and bad Christians
:beermug:
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I make no separation nor emphasis...I make posts here all the time, just the ones on religion garner the most controversy..say what..Religion is as man made as is God.
OK, I concede on the first two points and will continue to disagree on the last one. You do make posts all the time but you are right - the religion ones tend to take on a life of it own because it speaks to the core values of many on the forum.
And yes religion is man made. No question.
But prove to me that God is man-made or does not exist.
lol prove to me that He is real. lol
I don't have proof. I have faith. The foundation of my belief is faith, which by it's nature, cannot have proof.
I have taking the philosophical leap forward with Faith.
Perhaps you will get there one day, perhaps not. The decision to make that journey is yours alone.
I chose to believe and this is a personal decision that I have made in this journey we call life.
The right or wrong of the decision manifests in how we behave and treat other people as a result of our decision.
There are good atheist and bad atheists
There are good Christians and bad Christians
:beermug:
I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing. I never said faith was not good or un-required. I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc. I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.
SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing. I never said faith was not good or un-required. I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc. I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.
SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?
Where did I say you didn't have faith?
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Well said JC.
The issue here is power and control not religion per se. No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior. It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.
It's the stronger perception of hyocrisy that sounds the alarm bells and creates a different level of shock when abuse is carried out by religious bodies.
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.
"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.
"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."
She grow up under de Ayatollah... yuh blame she fuh not having faith? lol
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...and I'm not denying any of that. But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals. The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese. You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault. However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally. so that points to an institutional problem.
All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
Good point- but complicated. You're commenting on the doctrine (the set of beliefs, teachings). TT is commenting on the institution (including the church and those who administer it)- two very different things. So the key question is: Is 'religion' merely limited to a doctrine? Do the actions of the institution infringe on the official documented teachings of the doctrine?
You can argue that til the end of time.
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
An excerpt from an essay by Ayaan Hirsi Ali came into mind when I read this.
"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."
She grow up under de Ayatollah... yuh blame she fuh not having faith? lol
Yeah she went through a lot of painful cultural processes (She is Somali, ex-Muslim) but apart from dat she real have it in for Islam in its purest form and apparently later on she shrugged off God after living in the Netherlands and reading Enlightenment thinkers. I think I was fascinated how a true believer could do dat. I've read her books; she have an intriguing perspective
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TT it's called a belief because you can't prove it.
If you could prove it then it wouldn't be a belief, it would just be a fact.
People believe in the unknown and unproven every day....... it's called the future.
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Good point- but complicated. You're commenting on the doctrine (the set of beliefs, teachings). TT is commenting on the institution (including the church and those who administer it)- two very different things. So the key question is: Is 'religion' merely limited to a doctrine? Do the actions of the institution infringe on the official documented teachings of the doctrine?
You can argue that til the end of time.
I really don't see it as being complicated at all... his condemnation wasn't limited to the Roman Catholic church, nor was it even limited to Roman Catholic dogma... his attack was on Christianity itself. Sniping with a shotgun.
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Grande, my bad I was thinking of the Iranian Nobel Laureate (Shirin Ebadi, ah had to go check). Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now that you mention her Somali heritage and the "Netherlands"... she's the one who was a minister in the Dutch parliament, right? If in fact she was influenced by "Enlightenment" writers then I could understand her atheism as they saw religion a cloth used to stifle thinking and oppression...which at the time it was. But their undoing to me is that they failed to look at it universally, rather than from the confines of their own experience. To them man is supposed to free himself from 'servitude' (my word) to God in order for him to achieve his full potential.
So to her I could see, given her dissatisfaction with Islam, how their anti-religious rhetoric could find resonance with her. While a member of the Dutch Parliament wasn't she also opposed to increased immigration? Kinda ironic, if not hypocritical (assuming I have that factoid straight).
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TT it's called a belief because you can't prove it.
If you could prove it then it wouldn't be a belief, it would just be a fact.
People believe in the unknown and unproven every day....... it's called the future.
You have me all wrong...Bakes is meh rel boy in trute he always have meh thinking. lol de f**ker bright too bad.
I said i chose not to believe. I feel religion is man made and so are gods. That is my belief. I have seen scientific studies that make me marvel at the power of faith. Simply saying see you tomorrow is a matter of faith. Havinmg a doctor prescribe meds is faith based Understood.
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Bakes in the context of this argument, I was strictly bastardizing the Catholic church, You stated that it was not the fault of the institution itself, I disagreed,as even you acknowledged that the abuse has been widespread, pandemic and institution wide.
I hold less contempt for other forms of Christianity, and equal contempt for those who would push youngsters to strap bombs on their bodies and Proclaim God is great while blowing innocents to bits.
Additionally, I will acknowledge tat my "sniping" does get rabid at times. You do understand my point of view even if you disagree with it.
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Grande, my bad I was thinking of the Iranian Nobel Laureate (Shirin Ebadi, ah had to go check). Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now that you mention her Somali heritage and the "Netherlands"... she's the one who was a minister in the Dutch parliament, right? If in fact she was influenced by "Enlightenment" writers then I could understand her atheism as they saw religion a cloth used to stifle thinking and oppression...which at the time it was. But their undoing to me is that they failed to look at it universally, rather than from the confines of their own experience. To them man is supposed to free himself from 'servitude' (my word) to God in order for him to achieve his full potential.
So to her I could see, given her dissatisfaction with Islam, how their anti-religious rhetoric could find resonance with her. While a member of the Dutch Parliament wasn't she also opposed to increased immigration? Kinda ironic, if not hypocritical (assuming I have that factoid straight).
Yes Bakes she was the Dutch minister you were thinking about.
She say the major cataylst for her shedding Islam was Sept. 11 and how all what bin laden was saying/doing etc was emulating the Quran and life of Muhummad.
She have ah engaging debate with Tariq Ramadan on youtube if yuh ever get the chance.
Not sure if she was opposed to increased immigration. She had a serious issue with the Dutch concept of multiculturalism, where it lets communities of immigrants just 'be', letting them preserve their traditions and values without criticizing or questioning it especially when it is to the detriment of women, children, homosexuals etc. Accepting the differences without really scrutinizing what makes them/us different. By accepting the perceived injustices, one only perpetuates it and doesn't force the people within the communities to look inwardly and challenge their own values.
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Life is ah hell of ah thing, and i believe man with their limited knowledge and understanding, will find it hard tuh grasp the harsh realities that life could bring, and equally, put it in prospective.
some ppl react negatively too ah bad experience, while others rise to the occasion and stay within the confines of reality never losing sight of it.
as far as this woman or anyone else fitting her description, they had very bad experiences with religious ppl/ organizations/ family, and i don't blame them for reacting to the abuse, but i do blame them for holding ah crusade against the faith it self!
little boys get victimized in the seminaries, young women get abused by unscrupulous misogynistic middleastern men, ppl's been getting forked up in the name of religion from time in memorium, but there is a but, if we examine the precepts it self of the faiths in question, then i'm pretty sure there would be some serious contradictions on the part of the most popular religious ideas and the ppl who promote them.
the thing that most bothers me about these ppl is that, they have very limited knowledge of the west and it's values, and some ppl amongst them seem tuh hold western values in high esteem, as the ultimate in all social and political ideals, while ignoring the inefficiencies that plagues the west, far more so than anywhere else.
i just think ppl see what they want tuh see, while singling out other for ridicule, while the values that they promote might be open to the same type of scrutiny.
all in all, every single sane human being lives by some set of ideals, and in most cases, there is always something foul in the pot in regard to every man's ideals.
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Well said JC.
The issue here is power and control not religion per se. No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior. It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.
It's the stronger perception of hypocrisy that sounds the alarm bells and creates a different level of shock when abuse is carried out by religious bodies.
yeah .. I understand that. But as you said, they key word is "perception" and the perception that TT aka TC left us with was an inherent tendency to attack all religion more than he targets atheistic ne'er-do-wells. TC has sinced address that perception.
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I choose not to have faith in invisible Gods. But I have no problem with your faith. Faith is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
It's a rather unintellectual position to limit one's faith only to that which one can see. Must be a very stunted existence to live without faith in "love", "happiness", "beauty"... "the future". Indeed, what is "faith" if it's only invested in the tangible? The concept seems inherently oxymoronic... but if that's your choice, then that is your choice.
Bakes, I choose not to have faith in an invisible God , I stated that faith is a good thing. I never said faith was not good or un-required. I have faith whenever I get on a plane, when I go to sleep, etc. I CHOOSE not to believe in an invisible God.
SO I don't know where you got the idea that I don't have faith?
Where did I say you didn't have faith?
my son just IM'ed me the following:
Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.
The following sequence describes a justified believer.
1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief
But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.
And here is where atheists and theists have something in common
Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists lol
The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge
Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification. But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.
I now have a headache
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And here is where atheists and theists have something in common
Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists lol
Bravo Pecan Bravo :D
now the retort to this will be very Interesting indeed ;D
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And here is where atheists and theists have something in common
Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists lol
Bravo Pecan Bravo :D
now the retort to this will be very Interesting indeed ;D
Ed Zachery !!
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
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You have me all wrong...Bakes is meh rel boy in trute he always have meh thinking. lol de f**ker bright too bad.
I said i chose not to believe. I feel religion is man made and so are gods. That is my belief. I have seen scientific studies that make me marvel at the power of faith. Simply saying see you tomorrow is a matter of faith. Havinmg a doctor prescribe meds is faith based Understood.
Kicker pick up on mih point though... faith is belief absent of proof. If all you believe in are things of which you have proof then that is belief born of knowledge and not faith. Your "faith" that gravity will keep you grounded isn't faith but knowledge. Which is why I mentioned "faith" in only that which you can see as not being faith... if you can see, feel touch it etc.
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my son just IM'ed me the following:
Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.
The following sequence describes a justified believer.
1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief
But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.
And here is where atheists and theists have something in common
Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists lol
The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge
Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification. But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.
I now have a headache
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in, but that's a very common rhetorical fallacy... create a false dichotomy, break down that dichotomy to arrive at a pre-determined point thereby justifying to yourself and the unsophisticated that your point is correct. I'm speaking here of the author of this tautology not of you yourself.
"belief" and "faith" as posited above are mutually exclusive and as such there is no such thing as justified or unjustified belief ---> "false dichotomy".
Faith isn't a rational stance hence stating that agnosticism is the only rational position is a bit of stating the obvious... which kinda goes back to the opening quote.
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as far as this woman or anyone else fitting her description, they had very bad experiences with religious ppl/ organizations/ family, and i don't blame them for reacting to the abuse, but i do blame them for holding ah crusade against the faith it self!
Well Ayaan has lived and breathed her faith well into her adulthood. She has 100 % immersion in the holy sources of the faith and has lived in one of the countries where she believes the faith is practiced in its purest form (Saudi Arabia).
I understand the anger at the 'crusades' of men like Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens but when someone like Ayaan, or others from deep within the faith themselves - culture aside - speak out about it and make such ah leap to nonbelief, yuh can't help but have a listen.
I hear yuh on the rest of yuh post doh - about every single sane human being.
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my son just IM'ed me the following:
Epistemically speaking, faith is unjustified belief, where 'unjustified' is technical language with no judgment within it.
The following sequence describes a justified believer.
1) It is true
2) You believe it is true
3) You are justified in your belief
But since I do not know for sure that #1) is true when it comes to the existence of God, I am an unjustified believer because #2 describes me. And that is what Faith is.
And here is where atheists and theists have something in common
Their beliefs are both FAITH-based as neither know if God exists or does not exists lol
The only rational position is agnosticism: "I believe that a god could exist, but I do not know if one does exist", which is just admitting to not having knowledge
Now, the atheists will say empirical evidence suggests that God does not exist and they might have some justification. But it is an unrestricted negative as current technology does not allow us to test every possible case. We would have to test the past, present and future to concluded 100% that God never has and never will exist.
I now have a headache
"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in, but that's a very common rhetorical fallacy... create a false dichotomy, break down that dichotomy to arrive at a pre-determined point thereby justifying to yourself and the unsophisticated that your point is correct. I'm speaking here of the author of this tautology not of you yourself.
"belief" and "faith" as posited above are mutually exclusive and as such there is no such thing as justified or unjustified belief ---> "false dichotomy".
Faith isn't a rational stance hence stating that agnosticism is the only rational position is a bit of stating the obvious... which kinda goes back to the opening quote.
Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief
This is but one definition of knowledge and like any hypothesis, it is subject to challenge (and has been challenged).
But within the context that I used it, "belief" and "faith" are not mutually exclusive nor do I see the basis for your argument that there is “no such thing as justified or unjustified belief”. In fact, one can argue the opposite. Beliefs can be based on empirical evidence i.e. they are justified or they can be unjustified as religious Faith tends to be.
Religious Faith describes a belief of something without adequate reason or justification. In this context, ‘Justification’ is just a reason for holding a belief and should not be viewed as a word loaded with judgment.
To answer you comment about “ 'I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in' the concept of a 'justified believer’ is related to the posts on Faith and is not a non sequitur.
The use of the JTB to analyze Faith leads to the humorous conclusion (IMO) that atheists and non-atheists have much in common if this logic is applied equally to both beliefs. This is not a comment on the accuracy of the concept of JTB. Hence it is not a “false dichotomy” nor "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
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I hold less contempt for other forms of Christianity, and equal contempt for those who would push youngsters to strap bombs on their bodies and Proclaim God is great while blowing innocents to bits.
Additionally, I will acknowledge tat my "sniping" does get rabid at times. You do understand my point of view even if you disagree with it.
Look at the Anglicans Now
Newfoundland Anglican priest faces child porn charges
Posted: December 09, 2009, 7:10 PM by Ron Nurwisah
Charles Lewis, Anglican Church
By Charles Lewis
A highly respected Anglican priest in Newfoundland has been charged with possession and distribution of child pornography that included online images and videos of babies, police said on Wednesday.
Reverend Robin Barrett, 52, of the parish of New Hope near St. John’s, was arrested on Tuesday in Newfoundland. He is in custody and is expected to have a bail hearing on Wednesday.
Detective Paul Krawczyk of the Toronto police child exploitation unit said his group opened an investigation last month.
“This was an undercover investigation. We came upon a person on the Internet that we became concerned about because of what was being said and what was being shared,” said Det. Krawczyk. “We made contact with this person, in an undercover capacity, and during that time received child pornography from this person.
“We’re alleging the images and videos he passed were extremely young, as young as babies.”
Det. Krawczyk said the child exploitation section constantly monitors the Internet for these kind of images.
“A lot of our arrests these days are from us being proactive online,” he said. “They don’t all end up in our own backyard. The reality of the Internet is you end up in other places.”
He said the information was then passed on to the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, which made the arrest on Wednesday. Newfoundland police recently created a child exploitation unit to specifically deal with trafficking of child pornography.
Both police forces are now trying to figure out where the images were made and by whom.
None of the charges have been proven in court.
“News of the arrest brought shock, surprise, disappointment. All of those emotions, obviously,” said Elizabeth Barnes, executive officer of the Diocese of Eastern Newfound and Labrador.
“I’ve worked with him directly. I always found him a genuine, caring individual and his call to social causes is exemplary of the kind of man he is.”
Rev. Barrett, who is now suspended with pay from his duties, has been involved with ecumenical groups and groups pushing for social justice in the province.
Ms. Barnes said that he is well known for his compassion for those in the province who have been marginalized.
In November 2003, Rev. Barrett, who was then married with three children, announced publicly that he was gay.
“At the time we had to wrestle with that,” Ms. Barnes said. “The Anglican Communion has been wrestling with the issue of homosexuality so it was a big issue then.
But I believe a lot of our people have made peace with it and accepted him and worked with him on his merits as a priest and a man and his sexuality became no more of an issue than yours or mine.”
She added: “This is really not a gay issue. Child porn is not connected with homosexuality, but people will bring it up.”
In September, Raymond Lahey, 69, the Catholic bishop of the Diocese of Antigonish was charged by Ottawa police with possession and importation of child pornography after his computer was searched at the Ottawa airport.
And this week a British Columbia pastor, Larry Robert Collins, 45, was sentenced to 15 months in jail after he admitted making an explicit video that simulated the rape of a young teenager.
Det. Krawczyk said in his experience many people who are caught have public positions of responsibility and yet they still believe their activities are invisible.
“You and I find it hard to believe, but we don’t have an [sexual] interest in kids. But I don’t think it’s an addiction. You take this away and they don’t have the signs of withdrawal that you would have with a typical addiction. The reality is these people are so interested in this, and want to obtain material, they’re willing to take the chance they do. And that is really telling. They have a lot to lose and they’re still doing it.”
National Post
clewis@nationalpost.com
Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/12/09/newfoundland-anglican-priest-faces-child-porn-charges.aspx#ixzz0ZK1RmwES
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
:rotfl:
Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la . When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good). And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends. That is all I hope for.
But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
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Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.
I'm busy the rest of the week... will get back to you next week.
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
:rotfl:
Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la . When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good). And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends. That is all I hope for.
But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
:rotfl:
Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la . When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good). And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends. That is all I hope for.
But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.
I am enjoying my life ...plus I do derive some enjoyment out of these discussions. All part of the journey my friend.
Plus, look at my signature ;)
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
:rotfl:
Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la . When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good). And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends. That is all I hope for.
But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.
you mean like how you do?
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When I walk I have faith that gravity will not cause me to hurl into out of space. When I go to bed I have faith In will awake in the mroning. I have faith, just not in a God..or gods.
Check out Hume's Induction Problem
Problem of induction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge. That is, what is the justification for either:
1. generalising about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
2. presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold).
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method. Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later. A more recent, probability-based extension is the "no-free-lunch theorem for supervised learning" of Wolpert and Macready.
So, maybe tomorrow morning, gravity will fail and you will be hurled into space ;D
And maybe when you die you will sprout some wings and ascend into some spiritual shangri-la in the heavens?
from a nut to a butterfly...ain't evoultion wonderful?
:rotfl:
Actually, you know I doh believe in that spiritual shangri-la . When I die, my organs going to someone who could use them (if they still good). And hopefully, I will live on as fond memories of my relatives and friends. That is all I hope for.
But the nut to butterfly concept pretty funny
So why you wasting time arguing about existence of God or Gods..yuh should jes live.....and enjoy life...to the fullest.
you mean like how you do?
Show me where I ague about the existence of God..I state my opinion on his NON EXISTENCE
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
I eh go lie, yuh real live up tuh yuh name in this post here breddren. on another note, there's one verse in the bible and the quran that does set this atheistic view straight. yuh can't make the def tuh hear nor the blind tuh see, so leave them in their darkness, deaf dumb and blindly wondering on, they will soon come tuh know" !
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
Well, actually, is a atheist who start this thread. Not JC.
Just shows how the world unfolds according to set of arcane rules that may or may not have been created by God.
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
preacher, where you get that chain upaccount about voltaire on his death bed? they say the same thing about darwin - how he had a death bed conversion. is some priest come up with that.
ah find this belief in god based on very selective vision and hearing. belief that is based on cherry-picking evidence to suit a preconceived claim doh meet the test of reason. this is the same logicial flaw with creationism - e.g. the proof that god exists is that god exists. but yuh won't learn logic or reason from a religious text. yet some believer would tell yuh ALL yuh need to know is in de bible/koran/etc.. i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
preacher, tell me why it is that yuh ask 100 believers what they think God is and yuh will find disagreement amongst them? ironically, dis confusion doh affect non-believers.
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Okay I have a window of time to respond in some depth...
Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief
This is but one definition of knowledge and like any hypothesis, it is subject to challenge (and has been challenged).
As I said=> False dichotomy. To begin with you're using a definition of KNOWLEDGE... albeit one singular definition by your own admission. Religion isn't derived from "KNOW-ledge" because by definition faith and knowledge (synonymous in this regard with "belief" above) are mutually exclusive. Either the belief is derived by faith or it's based on knowledge one or the other, it can't be both. We have FAITH precisely because we don't KNOW for fact. This is why I said that faith and belief in the context you offer are incompatible. Just as you cannot hope to contain the infinite (a thorough understanding of God) within the finite (the human mind), similarly you cannot fit faith into any knowledge derived mold because inevitably "faith" fails the definition and what you end up with is either a conclusion that it's irrational, or that it is flawed. Again, a false dichotomy. Using night as the baseline to describe day, conclude that day is not night and therefore day is false (or illogical) for not being night, thereby arriving at a pre-determined conclusion.
But within the context that I used it, "belief" and "faith" are not mutually exclusive nor do I see the basis for your argument that there is “no such thing as justified or unjustified belief”. In fact, one can argue the opposite. Beliefs can be based on empirical evidence i.e. they are justified or they can be unjustified as religious Faith tends to be.
Of course they are... as I described above. Your contextual use of "belief" is one derived by empirical evidence, as you yourself say. There is no way to rationalize, gauge, measure or calibrate the process by which we derive our faith. It is neither quantifiable nor qualifiable and you cannot insist on forcing it into a discursive mold which it cannot fit... only to then pronounce it broken for not having fit the limited mold you started with. More below...
Religious Faith describes a belief of something without adequate reason or justification. In this context, ‘Justification’ is just a reason for holding a belief and should not be viewed as a word loaded with judgment.
Again.... according to YOUR limited definition. If you limit the definition of faith to some subjective standard as "something without adequate reason or justification" then of course you end up with a flawed conclusion. It's no different than European anthropologists insisting during the early 20th Century, that the mark of an intelligent civilization is the development of a written language. They then used that limited definition to advance their own agenda in pronouncing African civilization as primitive, for having fallen short of their stinted criteria. By that definition African civilization was doomed to fail their test... just as by limiting "belief" along some "knowledge" tautology dooms it to fail that stinted standard.
To answer you comment about “ 'I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in' the concept of a 'justified believer’ is related to the posts on Faith and is not a non sequitur.
Continuing from above... and addressing this statement directly... speak to any Christian and they will likely be able to articulate for you a justification (or "just reason") for their faith. If however you base acceptance of that justification on some arbitrary "adequate" standard, then by definition you subjectively reserve the right to denounce faith as being not adequate enough. You cannot assert proprietary rights to the application of "adequate justification" and then apply circular logic to then pronounce "faith" as being "unjustified". By starting with that subjective, arbitrary standard you establish the false dichotomy from the onset.
The use of the JTB to analyze Faith leads to the humorous conclusion (IMO) that atheists and non-atheists have much in common if this logic is applied equally to both beliefs. This is not a comment on the accuracy of the concept of JTB. Hence it is not a “false dichotomy” nor "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
Of course you can claim the night is really day and day is really night, the evidence notwithstanding... that is your right. The incongruity of your logic has been dissected with as much detail as I can spare at this time, but if you insist that it still makes sense then who am I to argue with you?
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Okay I have a window of time to respond in some depth...
Hmmm . . I don’t share your conclusion that the concept of a Justified True Belief (JTB) is a false dichotomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justified_true_belief
This is but one definition of knowledge and like any hypothesis, it is subject to challenge (and has been challenged).
As I said=> False dichotomy. To begin with you're using a definition of KNOWLEDGE... albeit one singular definition by your own admission. Religion isn't derived from "KNOW-ledge" because by definition faith and knowledge (synonymous in this regard with "belief" above) are mutually exclusive. Either the belief is derived by faith or it's based on knowledge one or the other, it can't be both. We have FAITH precisely because we don't KNOW for fact. This is why I said that faith and belief in the context you offer are incompatible. Just as you cannot hope to contain the infinite (a thorough understanding of God) within the finite (the human mind), similarly you cannot fit faith into any knowledge derived mold because inevitably "faith" fails the definition and what you end up with is either a conclusion that it's irrational, or that it is flawed. Again, a false dichotomy. Using night as the baseline to describe day, conclude that day is not night and therefore day is false (or illogical) for not being night, thereby arriving at a pre-determined conclusion.
But within the context that I used it, "belief" and "faith" are not mutually exclusive nor do I see the basis for your argument that there is “no such thing as justified or unjustified belief”. In fact, one can argue the opposite. Beliefs can be based on empirical evidence i.e. they are justified or they can be unjustified as religious Faith tends to be.
Of course they are... as I described above. Your contextual use of "belief" is one derived by empirical evidence, as you yourself say. There is no way to rationalize, gauge, measure or calibrate the process by which we derive our faith. It is neither quantifiable nor qualifiable and you cannot insist on forcing it into a discursive mold which it cannot fit... only to then pronounce it broken for not having fit the limited mold you started with. More below...
Religious Faith describes a belief of something without adequate reason or justification. In this context, ‘Justification’ is just a reason for holding a belief and should not be viewed as a word loaded with judgment.
Again.... according to YOUR limited definition. If you limit the definition of faith to some subjective standard as "something without adequate reason or justification" then of course you end up with a flawed conclusion. It's no different than European anthropologists insisting during the early 20th Century, that the mark of an intelligent civilization is the development of a written language. They then used that limited definition to advance their own agenda in pronouncing African civilization as primitive, for having fallen short of their stinted criteria. By that definition African civilization was doomed to fail their test... just as by limiting "belief" along some "knowledge" tautology dooms it to fail that stinted standard.
To answer you comment about “ 'I'm not sure where all that "justified believer" talk come in' the concept of a 'justified believer’ is related to the posts on Faith and is not a non sequitur.
Continuing from above... and addressing this statement directly... speak to any Christian and they will likely be able to articulate for you a justification (or "just reason") for their faith. If however you base acceptance of that justification on some arbitrary "adequate" standard, then by definition you subjectively reserve the right to denounce faith as being not adequate enough. You cannot assert proprietary rights to the application of "adequate justification" and then apply circular logic to then pronounce "faith" as being "unjustified". By starting with that subjective, arbitrary standard you establish the false dichotomy from the onset.
The use of the JTB to analyze Faith leads to the humorous conclusion (IMO) that atheists and non-atheists have much in common if this logic is applied equally to both beliefs. This is not a comment on the accuracy of the concept of JTB. Hence it is not a “false dichotomy” nor "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"...
Of course you can claim the night is really day and day is really night, the evidence notwithstanding... that is your right. The incongruity of your logic has been dissected with as much detail as I can spare at this time, but if you insist that it still makes sense then who am I to argue with you?
I do appreciate your response because it is a well thought out argument which causes me to examine my line of reasoning. :beermug: Thanks for your insight and taking the time to reply. Appreciated.
I don’t disagree with your logic as hinged on what I infer to be your definition of the word "justification". But here is where I think we diverge. I am using the word justification in a strictly technical sense (which I have repeatably stated up front). But when I read your response I have to conclude that you have attached moral and judgmental attributes to my use of the word “justification’ which naturally leads you to the erroneous conclusion that I have pronounced religious faith 'broken' and that my argument is incongruous.
Consider Hebrews 11:1-3
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible."
That quote says it all.
I am not limiting my definition of Faith to an arbitrary standard as you state. Faith is what it is: assurance of things unseen (unproven, unseen i.e unjustified). And that is not a condemnation of Faith. Rather, that is an elevation of the concept of Faith. Faith is to be cherished, not denounced. To believe in something when you have no justification, to have complete trust without question, without doubt, without a construct to lean on, is what I call religious Faith. That is the absolute definition of faith. No justification, but you still believe in an absolute being who loves you. (this is where I disagree with Preacher as it takes more courage to believe in the absence of proof that it takes to believe in the presence of proof).
So you and I will agree to disagree. :beermug:
btw, I did speak with some Christians about “just reason” for their faith and contrary to what you though they might have said, they did not give me justification for their faith. Rather, they gave explanations (not justifications and there is a difference between the two words). And the two I spoke to today both said, paraphrasing, there is no need to justify my faith. It just is, but here are some explanations as to why I have faith ....
The day we justify our religious Faith is the day when God manifests on earth in a physical and quantifiable manner. And when we justify faith, it no longer become faith but a Natural Law.
Of course you can claim the night is really day and day is really night, the evidence notwithstanding... that is your right. The incongruity of your logic has been dissected with as much detail as I can spare at this time, but if you insist that it still makes sense then who am I to argue with you?
Do you really want me to answer that question? ;)
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
preacher, where you get that chain upaccount about voltaire on his death bed? they say the same thing about darwin - how he had a death bed conversion. is some priest come up with that.
ah find this belief in god based on very selective vision and hearing. belief that is based on cherry-picking evidence to suit a preconceived claim doh meet the test of reason. this is the same logicial flaw with creationism - e.g. the proof that god exists is that god exists. but yuh won't learn logic or reason from a religious text. yet some believer would tell yuh ALL yuh need to know is in de bible/koran/etc.. i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
preacher, tell me why it is that yuh ask 100 believers what they think God is and yuh will find disagreement amongst them? ironically, dis confusion doh affect non-believers.
Have you ever heard of ah book called, :the bible the quran and science " by maurice bucaille ? i think you need tuh do some reading before making such a bold statement.
in this book there are a lot of scientific references made and compared with modern day scientific findings, you could also goggle another lecturer call DR. zakir naik.
some of the earliest great scientific minds came out of bagdad post islamic era when the west was in their dark ages, and most of them were great islamic scholars as well, plus in the earliest days of european scientific beginnings, the church spear headed a lot scientific research.
in the quran, ppl are urged to disprove it, even in the purity of the grammar it appears to be miraculous,and over the centuries nuff ppl were challenged tuh put forth ah single verse like it, many sceptics has tried and all failed just to produce one verse with the eloquence and profound meaning.
there are so many books written on this very subject, bias and unbiased. one of the most disheartening thing about the religious and atheistic position is the bold way in which they invoke and negate the existence of divinity.
one of the most memorable thing i've heard was, "some ppl can't even understand the wall street journal, but they expect tuh understand divinity".
with our little 5 % brain capacity, we barely could stand tuh unravel metaphysics, let alone the universe, or even our own planet, but they want tuh understand and solve something greater than them all. good luck human kind with allyuh bold position taking, i believe if man had access to their full cerebral capacity then nothing in life would longer be a mystery, and all would be known.
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Apologies in advance for the length of the response... but I did promise that I'd have more time at the end of the week, lol
I do appreciate your response because it is a well thought out argument which causes me to examine my line of reasoning. :beermug: Thanks for your insight and taking the time to reply. Appreciated.
I don’t disagree with your logic as hinged on what I infer to be your definition of the word "justification". But here is where I think we diverge. I am using the word justification in a strictly technical sense (which I have repeatably stated up front). But when I read your response I have to conclude that you have attached moral and judgmental attributes to my use of the word “justification’ which naturally leads you to the erroneous conclusion that I have pronounced religious faith 'broken' and that my argument is incongruous.
Why would you conclude assume that I have "attached moral and judgmental attributes" to your use of "justification"? All I did was address what you wrote... not what I thought was going on in your head as you wrote it, that's a fool's game to impute intent where there is none, oftentimes it's a process that only serves to reveal our own subconscious influences rather than those we impute them to.
Mind you, I never offered any definition of "justification" so it probably wouldn't be wise to "infer" something that doesn't exist and base the sum of your response on that non-existent factoid. You offered that "justification" is some inadequate REASON for holding a belief. You also offered that faith is having that belief without adequate justification. Lest we get hung up on your misunderstanding of my understanding of YOUR use of justification, let us substitute "reason" instead.
YOU claim that faith is having a belief w/o adequate "reason". Again I must ask... where did you get that definition? Using the very tautology you offered,
1. this limited definition of "faith" is true
2. You believe it is true
3. you are justified in your belief that "faith" by definition is adoption of a belief system absent adequate justification reason
My entire point to you is that you don't get to set the parameters and restrict the definition to suit a model more conducive to your conclusion. I was never concerned with any moral or judgmental undercurrents to your statements
Consider Hebrews 11:1-3
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible."
That quote says it all.
I am not limiting my definition of Faith to an arbitrary standard as you state. Faith is what it is: assurance of things unseen (unproven, unseen i.e unjustified). And that is not a condemnation of Faith. Rather, that is an elevation of the concept of Faith. Faith is to be cherished, not denounced.
To believe in something when you have no justification, to have complete trust without question, without doubt, without a construct to lean on, is what I call religious Faith. That is the absolute definition of faith. No justification, but you still believe in an absolute being who loves you. (this is where I disagree with Preacher as it takes more courage to believe in the absence of proof that it takes to believe in the presence of proof).
I'm curious as to why you think that the verse from Hebrews is a "definition" and not an explanation? If I explain to you what a dog is have I defined it? The anonymous author of the Book of Hebrew was exhorting believers to remain true to their belief and have hope that their troubles were not going by unheeded by God. By no means can either of us impute an intent to limit faith to just that "definition".
You claim that you're not limiting your definition to an arbitrary standard and to an extent you're right... you offer malleable standards, one of which is arbitrary "belief w/o reason/justification". If it's not arbitrary then perhaps you could explain how you came about the definition? What is its source?
As for the bolded "To believe in something when you have no justification..." again with the justification, lol. You'd have to define justification so that I could better respond without being accused of misunderstanding your usage. Let's use "reason" instead... are you using reason in the sense of "rationality"? That is to say, "faith" is irrational? From a scientific standpoint I agree... but by necessity if you try to use science (a methodology derived from observation, calculation, documentation etc.) then how does that not guarantee that one would arrive at any other conclusion but that faith is "irrational" or without "reason" as you put it?
Again though, reason does exist for faith just not in some quantifiable scientific sense that you insist (by limiting it to a scientific definition). Same too you attribute to faith a characteristic of acceptance without question... a failed puritanical ideal. Of course my personal belief is that an intelligent God didn't creat intelligent beings in his own image, only for them to unintelligently just accept their lot w/out question. By that definition then Job was not a man of faith... was he? He certainly seemed to question why certain things were happening to him. As did David... in the Book of Psalms.
I could go on and on deconstructing your definitions... but I'd like to believe that my point is sufficiently proved that once more, you can't limit the definition of faith only to then turn around and apply circular logic to say, "faith doesn't meet the definition, therefore..."
So you and I will agree to disagree. :beermug:
btw, I did speak with some Christians about “just reason” for their faith and contrary to what you though they might have said, they did not give me justification for their faith. Rather, they gave explanations (not justifications and there is a difference between the two words). And the two I spoke to today both said, paraphrasing, there is no need to justify my faith. It just is, but here are some explanations as to why I have faith ....
The day we justify our religious Faith is the day when God manifests on earth in a physical and quantifiable manner. And when we justify faith, it no longer become faith but a Natural Law.
Lol... why would you think I'd expect any particular answer? Christians are not homogenous in thought friend, I simply said "speak to any Christian and they would likely be able to justify their belief for you".
Some people simply have never given it any thought they just go with their 'feelings'. Faith makes them feel comfortable, secure and imparts a sense of belonging... among other things. So they never took time to question it. Indeed... they were thought to NOT question, merely accept. Not so?
Do you really want me to answer that question? ;)
Sure, why not?
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
preacher, where you get that chain upaccount about voltaire on his death bed? they say the same thing about darwin - how he had a death bed conversion. is some priest come up with that.
ah find this belief in god based on very selective vision and hearing. belief that is based on cherry-picking evidence to suit a preconceived claim doh meet the test of reason. this is the same logicial flaw with creationism - e.g. the proof that god exists is that god exists. but yuh won't learn logic or reason from a religious text. yet some believer would tell yuh ALL yuh need to know is in de bible/koran/etc.. i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
preacher, tell me why it is that yuh ask 100 believers what they think God is and yuh will find disagreement amongst them? ironically, dis confusion doh affect non-believers.
i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
Brother the bible is not against science. But let me break this thing down. Were you and your parents born in T&T? Because if your grand mother saw you write this "what value is a faith that is not tested?" You would be in trouble. But let's just assume that your wisdom is beyond the generation before you. What about the thousands of generations before them and the billions of people on this planet that have come and gone believing in a greater Being? You don't think faith has been tested? Maybe you have found something new under the sun. ;D Let me ask you this. Do you believe in the spirit world? To be consistent your answer should be no. If so, then you must also assume that you don't have a spirit or a soul because those things can't be measured by science. If that is the case where to you get your moral compass from? Oh yes aristotle or descartes.
I have tested faith and found God is real. I can't share my findings with you because there is no scientifically controlled environment that God could fit in. I would say that He has changed me in my spirit and soul. But wait...you don't have those......let me see. I wrote a song about it. Wanna hear it? Hear it goes.
V2
Check this thing look...I know the man real
To succeed you need more than just zeal
Drop upon yuh knees and me say tell Him how yuh feel
He never miss a thing He hears every appeal
Just open yuh heart and let Him come eeeen
Listen to meh chat and me say hear me styleeeen
No man can stand against the Supreme Beiiiiiin
If yuh die in yuh sin you'll no what I meeeaan
Somebody even post on youtube for yuh :beermug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGE1fpKNL_I&feature=related
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Apologies in advance for the length of the response... but I did promise that I'd have more time at the end of the week, lol
Let me ponder your post. Well articulated but I need to absorb it and I dont have time this weekend
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Apologies in advance for the length of the response... but I did promise that I'd have more time at the end of the week, lol
Let me ponder your post. Well articulated but I need to absorb it and I dont have time this weekend
Yeah man... no rush.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5SRwuo3fOk
Look at the whole video...was she justified? Please look at the video in its entirety.
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She's obviously upset with the policies of the RC Church. Lucky for her it wasn't a picture representing Muhammad or some great Islamic Cleric. ;D All Sinead did was take an influential platform given to her and use it to stir up people's thought. That's the right of any artist and I respect her for it.
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TC check this. ;D Look she singing ah religious song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FJYXad_J7k&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_stronger_r2-2r-5-HM
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TC thanks for starting this thread. Much respect to every post and every view.
While reading this thing I thought it amazing that we can even attempt to separate faith from God regardless of religion. Faith is what I would call the "God gene." It's in everyone. The same way God created the world is the same way we create our worlds and interact with it. It's all by faith. It actually takes more faith to not believe in a heavenly Father than to believe. To not believe in God takes a lot of doing, considering that we all believe in something bigger than ourselves. There is ALWAYS something. Some ideology, theory or thesis.
The funny thing is though, those that claim there is no God suddenly find him in the midst of peril. Without thinking they quickly abandon their views and call to heaven. "OH GOD!!!!" They call as if they new Him all along. The call is as pure and sincere as a child calling for the help of a father, whom he/she "believes" can do something to help their situation.
There was a french philosopher called Voltaire. Voltaire was very proud of his atheism. One time during a debate he boldly claimed that in 50 years the bible would be just another book if in print at all. Voltaire was a very intelligent and respected philosopher. On the night Voltaire died he laid in bed tied like an animal. His friends tried to relieve his torment by getting him drunk but to no avail. He kept screaming about things coming for him. At the end he sat up in bed and said, "I am damned, I am damned." His maid said all the money in the world is not worth watching an infidel die. Today his house is owned by the bible society. The bible is still here and he is not.
There aren't any atheists on the front lines of war either. Being confronted with our mortally releases true reality. It "prepares us to meet our marker" so to speak. At the end, all men believe. For many it's to late to put any action to the faith we had all along. And that's the damn misery of it. :(
preacher, where you get that chain upaccount about voltaire on his death bed? they say the same thing about darwin - how he had a death bed conversion. is some priest come up with that.
ah find this belief in god based on very selective vision and hearing. belief that is based on cherry-picking evidence to suit a preconceived claim doh meet the test of reason. this is the same logicial flaw with creationism - e.g. the proof that god exists is that god exists. but yuh won't learn logic or reason from a religious text. yet some believer would tell yuh ALL yuh need to know is in de bible/koran/etc.. i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
preacher, tell me why it is that yuh ask 100 believers what they think God is and yuh will find disagreement amongst them? ironically, dis confusion doh affect non-believers.
i.e. doh bother with anything else. better yuh learn to recite de bible backwards before yuh open a book on aristotle or descartes. what value is a faith that is not tested? ???
Brother the bible is not against science. But let me break this thing down. Were you and your parents born in T&T? Because if your grand mother saw you write this "what value is a faith that is not tested?" You would be in trouble. But let's just assume that your wisdom is beyond the generation before you. What about the thousands of generations before them and the billions of people on this planet that have come and gone believing in a greater Being? You don't think faith has been tested? Maybe you have found something new under the sun. ;D Let me ask you this. Do you believe in the spirit world? To be consistent your answer should be no. If so, then you must also assume that you don't have a spirit or a soul because those things can't be measured by science. If that is the case where to you get your moral compass from? Oh yes aristotle or descartes.
I have tested faith and found God is real. I can't share my findings with you because there is no scientifically controlled environment that God could fit in. I would say that He has changed me in my spirit and soul. But wait...you don't have those......let me see. I wrote a song about it. Wanna hear it? Hear it goes.
V2
Check this thing look...I know the man real
To succeed you need more than just zeal
Drop upon yuh knees and me say tell Him how yuh feel
He never miss a thing He hears every appeal
Just open yuh heart and let Him come eeeen
Listen to meh chat and me say hear me styleeeen
No man can stand against the Supreme Beiiiiiin
If yuh die in yuh sin you'll no what I meeeaan
Somebody even post on youtube for yuh :beermug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGE1fpKNL_I&feature=related
preacher, what yuh saying here? it sound like yuh giving your 2 cents on my and my family's life experiences with faith based on your own experience and expecting me to meekly agree that you know better than my own two eye. STEUPS. that is typical preacher talk because allyuh only know de standard religious paradigm of interaction: leader and follower and de followers blindly obeying de leaders. i eh built for that. yuh duck my question.
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Irish bishop Donal Murray resigns over abuse report
Dr Donal Murray has resigned as Bishop of Limerick
Dr Donal Murray has resigned as Bishop of Limerick
An Irish bishop has resigned, weeks after his handling of child sex abuse allegations was severely criticised.
A report on abuse by priests in the Dublin Archdiocese found Donal Murray's handling of one case while an auxiliary bishop in the 1980s was "inexcusable".
The Vatican said the Pope had accepted his resignation as bishop of Limerick.
Dr Murray said: "I know full well my resignation cannot undo the pain that survivors of abuse have suffered in the past and continue to suffer each day."
The Murphy report into abuse in the Dublin Archdiocese from 1975 to 2004 was highly critical of the Catholic church hierarchy's handling of priests suspected of being child abusers.
To all survivors of abuse, I repeat that my primary concern is to assist in every way that I can on their journey towards finding closure and serenity
Dr Donal Murray
Q&A: Bishop's resignation
The report said many bishops were more concerned with preserving the reputation of the church rather than protecting children.
It found that during Dr Murray's time as an auxiliary bishop in Dublin from 1982 to 1996, he was dismissive of complaints about a priest who went on to abuse again.
Dr Murray said on Thursday he had taken time to study the report in full before deciding to resign.
"I humbly apologise once again to all who were abused as little children," he said.
"To all survivors of abuse, I repeat that my primary concern is to assist in every way that I can on their journey towards finding closure and serenity.
"I asked the Holy Father to allow me to resign and to appoint a new bishop to the diocese because I believe that my presence will create difficulties for some of the survivors who must have first place in our thoughts and prayers."
Dr Murray held talks about his future with the Pope in the Vatican last week.
He said Pope Benedict had accepted his resignation on Monday but agreed that Dr Murray should return to Limerick to allow him to be in his diocese when the announcement was made.
'Inexcusable'
The Murphy report said Bishop Murray did not deal properly with the suspicions and concerns that were expressed to him in relation to one priest, Fr Tom Naughton in 1983.
A short time later, factual evidence of Naughton's abusing emerged in another parish.
The Murphy report found Bishop Murray's failure to reinvestigate the earlier suspicions was "inexcusable".
In May 1998, Naughton pleaded guilty to six counts of indecently assaulting three boys in 1985 and 1986. He was jailed for three years, reduced on appeal to two-and-a-half years.
On Wednesday, Naughton was jailed again - this time for three years for sexually abusing an altar boy between 1982 and 1984.
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Archbishops at centre of cover-up
Four Catholic archbishops of Dublin have been criticised for covering-up clerical child abuse in a damning report into how the crimes were handled by the Dublin diocese.
The archbishops were in charge of the area from the outbreak of the World War II- known as the Emergency in the Republic of Ireland - through to Vatican II and the rise of the "Celtic Tiger".
They presided over a period of unprecedented social, religious and economic change in the country.
Throughout the decades however, the four men appear to have taken a very similar approach to tackling the issue of clerical child abuse - an issue which would eventually bring down a government and rock the Irish Catholic Church to its very foundations.
Only one of the four, the former Cardinal Desmond Connell, is still alive to witness how their actions have been assessed by Thursday's report.
John Charles McQuaid (Archbishop of Dublin 1940-1972)
Archbishop John Charles McQuaid
Archbishop John Charles McQuaid
Born in Cavan in 1895, his term of office saw the Catholic population of Dublin grow from approximately 630,000 to over 800,000 people while the number of clergy and religious increased by over 50%.
He created over 60 new parishes, built more than 80 new churches and around 350 schools.
He was described as a powerful and conservative figure who wielded much influence in all aspects of Irish society.
His opinion was sought on the wording of the Irish constitution and he was said to have heavily influenced the Republic's founding father and first Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera.
Dermot Ryan (Archbishop of Dublin 1972-1984)
Archbishop Dermot Ryan
Archbishop Dermot Ryan
Viewed as more approachable than his predecessor, Archbishop Ryan continued with the established policy of moving rather than removing those accused of abusing children.
The high point in his term of office was the visit of Pope John Paul II to the Republic of Ireland in 1979.
After his death, the pope said of both him and his successor that the Lord had called them to himself too quickly.
"Both were moved in their service of the Church by a profound sense of personal accountability to Christ," the pope said.
Archbishop Ryan gifted land at Dublin's affluent Merrion Square, which had been ear-marked for a new church, to the people of the city.
Kevin McNamara (Archbishop of Dublin 1985-1987)
Archbishop Kevin McNamara
Archbishop Kevin McNamara
An outspoken figure against divorce and abortion, he was co-consecrated as Bishop of Kerry by the now disgraced Bishop Eamon Casey, who he succeeded in the role in 1976.
The Irish charity One in Four, which supports victims of sexual violence, has alleged that as Archbishop of Dublin, Kevin McNamara sought legal advice about how to deal with allegations of clerical abuse.
He is said to have taken out an insurance policy to protect church finances from compensation claims.
His period in office was short-lived though and he died suddenly in April 1987.
Cardinal Desmond Connell (Archbishop of Dublin 1988-2004)
Cardinal Desmond Connell
Cardinal Desmond Connell
The former head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Dr Connell was in office when the first, very public clerical child abuse scandal broke.
It involved the Northern Ireland-born priest Fr Brendan Smyth who was convicted of over more than 90 charges of child sexual abuse.
The civil authorities' failure to take action over Fr Smyth eventually brought down the government and redefined the relationship between church and state.
The high-profile coverage of the case opened the flood gates, as hundreds of other victims of clerical abuse who had stayed silent for years finally contacted the authorities.
In the years of furore that followed, Desmond Connell repeated the mistakes of his predecessors by opting for internal inquiries as opposed to passing on details of the allegations to the Irish police.
In 1995 he finally handed over the names of 17 suspects to civil authorities, a figure which must be seen in context with the hundreds of complaints identified by his successor, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin.
Before his retirement in 2004, Dr Connell publicly asked for forgiveness from all those he had offended.
At the time, his successor said history would recognise that Dr Connell had acted in accordance with his conscience when handling clerical sex abuse scandals.
The two are said to have strongly disagreed last year, however, when Dr Connell caused outrage by mounting a High Court action to block the child abuse inquiry getting access to thousands of church files on clerical abuse.
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Vatican 'snubbed Ireland church abuse inquiry'
A church congregation
The handling of allegations of child sex abuse in Dublin was investigated
The inquiry into sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland has disclosed that the Vatican ignored formal requests for information.
The inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the Vatican by the Dublin archdiocese in 2006.
The Vatican did not reply but told the Irish Foreign Affairs department the request "had not gone through appropriate diplomatic channels".
The inquiry condemned church leaders for covering-up abuse for decades.
The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, which was published on Thursday, covered a period from 1975 to 2004.
The commission said it was independent of the government and therefore did not regard it as appropriate to use diplomatic channels when seeking information.
A request for information from the Papal Nuncio also was ignored.
In February 2007, the commission wrote to the Dublin-based Papal Nuncio asking him to forward all relevant documents in his possession.
It also requested that he confirm whether he had any such documents but the Papal Nuncio did not reply.
Ashamed
Earlier this year, the commission again failed to receive a reply after sending the Papal Nuncio extracts from its draft report which referred to him and his office, as it was required to do.
The Vatican told The Irish Times it "was a matter for the local church involved".
A senior Vatican spokesman said diplomatic practice required that outside requests made to the governance of the Vatican pass through diplomatic channels, in this case the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin and the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in Rome.
The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland has said he is deeply sorry and ashamed by the child abuse the report had revealed.
Cardinal Sean Brady also apologised for the way the Church covered-up the crimes.
The report also found that on occasions senior police officers colluded in the cover-up.
The commissioner of the Irish police, Fachtna Murphy, apologised for the police failure to protect victims.
Victims groups are now calling for a similar inquiry to take place in every diocese in Ireland.
However, the Auxiliary Bishop of Dublin Eamonn Walsh has said he does not believe that should happen.
He said it would be better for the Church to use its "time, energy and money" to improve child protection measures.
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Any articles on the atheistic murderous russians, chzecks and north koreans?? what about an article on the countless murders of women and children from behind the atheistic iron curtain?
what about the women who was raped by atheistic communist soldiers over the yrs?? what about russia, who enslaved their nieghbors for yrs while trying tuh add afghanistan to their collection and collected instead ah memorable cutarse??
what about you who keep posting all these annoying articles tuh rile up the board?? while most of them are missrepresentations. why yuh doh get ah real life?? :puking: :loser:
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Any articles on the atheistic murderous russians, chzecks and north koreans?? what about an article on the countless murders of women and children from behind the atheistic iron curtain?
what about the women who was raped by atheistic communist soldiers over the yrs?? what about russia, who enslaved their nieghbors for yrs while trying tuh add afghanistan to their collection and collected instead ah memorable cutarse??
what about you who keep posting all these annoying articles tuh rile up the board?? while most of them are missrepresentations. why yuh doh get ah real life?? :puking: :loser:
you is ah real tun-tun.
annoying articles to rile up which board is only you getting riled up yuh fowl f**ker lol yuh acting like I write the articles I posting...steups
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so far the talk on the forum on belief and faith has been centred on the belief/faith in [a] God.
what about belief/faith in religious prophecy?
alot of de main religions have prophecies.
jews in israel trying to birth a red heifer.
people through history called napoleon, hitler, stalin, etc.. de antichrist.
cults claiming de end of de world on such and such a date - mass suicide.
so far, none of de prophecies happen.
do de believers *really* believe in dese prophecies?
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
waiz yuh point? ???
steups!
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
waiz yuh point? ???
steups!
Why don't you ask the people who put Biblical verses on munitions? Why don't you ask Yahoo why they posted the article for the entire world to see?
wHY NOT ASK abc WHY THEY CARRIED SUCH A STORY?
I MADE A POST, THAT WAS MY POINT.
steups.
Like you fall and hit yuh facking head in Morvant? Steups again. Look at the clip and see what my point is.
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
WWJD? Wait and see soon you'll get to ask Him yourself. Hopefully it's on this side of eternity. :beermug:
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
WWJD? Wait and see soon you'll get to ask Him yourself. Hopefully it's on this side of eternity. :beermug:
I was asking what would jack do.....
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http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
Well yes!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha WWJD?
WWJD? Wait and see soon you'll get to ask Him yourself. Hopefully it's on this side of eternity. :beermug:
I was asking what would jack do.....
What Jack would do, he already did it. :devil: ;D
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Well said JC!
:applause: :applause: :applause:
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L.A. cardinal deposed for 5 hours in abuse lawsuit
By Drew Griffin, CNN Special Investigations Unit
February 1, 2010 7:32 p.m. EST
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/CRIME/02/01/california.cardinal.deposition/story.roger.mahony.afp.gi.jpg)
Cardinal Roger Mahony was deposed in a civil suit focusing on a priest who was convicted of molestation, sources say.
(CNN) -- The head of the largest Catholic archdiocese in the United States faced a grueling five-hour deposition last month, answering questions about his knowledge of abusive priests and his attempts to prevent the information from reaching police.
A spokesman for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, California, would not answer further questions about Cardinal Roger Mahony's deposition in a civil lawsuit.
"A transcript has not been made available to the archdiocese," spokesman Tod Tamberg said. "When the transcript is made available to the public, you [CNN] may resubmit your questions."
CNN reported last year that the U.S. attorney in Los Angeles had launched a federal grand jury investigation to determine if Mahony violated the law in his response to the molestation of children by priests.
Tamberg said the archdiocese's attorneys "have been told that Cardinal Mahony is not a target of the investigation."
Sources close to the investigation said both the federal investigation and the civil lawsuit focus on one priest in particular -- Michael Baker, who was defrocked and is serving a 10-year prison term for molesting three children.
Baker, who confessed to Mahony in 1986, has twice appeared before the federal grand jury, sources tell CNN.
Mahony failed to disclose Baker's self-reported crimes to police on several occasions and instead allowed Baker to seek treatment options while moving him from parish to parish, sources close to the investigation said.
In a deposition released last year, Monsignor Richard Loomis, the former vicar of clergy for the archdiocese, said under oath that he wrote a memo in 2000 advocating that the archdiocese inform police about allegations of sexual abuse against Baker. Mahony, Loomis testified, directed him not to report the allegations.
The Archdiocese of Los Angeles released information about Baker to the police in March 2002. Baker was convicted in 2007.
The archdiocese, with 288 parishes in 120 cities throughout southern California, serves more than 4 million Catholics, according to its Web site.
Mahony has dealt with accusations he covered up sex-abuse cases for years. Three years ago, the archdiocese agreed to pay $660 million to 508 people who claimed they were victims of abuse by priests.
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de catholic church need some RICO charges.
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The Leaders of the Catholic from Pope on down should be charged with aiding and abetting and harboring criminals....simple
But the Prosecutors are also Catholic....so no dice there
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This is in today's guardian. Married men becomes Deacons.
http://guardian.co.tt/news/general/2010/02/07/married-men-become-deacons
Married men become deacons
...Crazy catholic among 20 ordained at RC Church
Anika Gumbs-Sandiford
Published: 7 Feb 2010
Twenty permanent deacons prostrate at the front of the
altar of the Cathedral of Immaculate Conception in
Port-of-Spain yesterday during their ordination. It was a
historic occasion as their ordination marked the first of
its kind in the local Roman Catholic Church.
Photo: Shirley Bahadur
Anika Gumbs-Sandiford
History has been created at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Port-of-Spain with the ordination of 20 permanent deacons into the local Roman Catholic Church. The deacons, many of them married, accepted their vows before a packed congregation yesterday after undergoing a three-year diaconate programme. The diaconate is the first Sacrament of Orders in the Catholic Church. To be ordained a permanent deacon, married men must get consent from their wives before receiving the vocation. Unlike priests who are allowed to share in the governing office of the church, the vocation of a permanent deacon is to witness to evangelistic servanthood.
The vocation allows the permanent deacons to perform various services at the parish level such as baptism, funeral and assisting in marriages, however, they are not allowed to conduct the Holy Mass. As hundreds witnessed the historic event, many were moved to tears as the 20 men prostrated at the front of the altar as they accepted their vocation. Among them was comedian Sheldon Narine aka Crazy Catholic. In delivering the homily, Archbishop Edward J Gilbert urged the permanent deacons not be egotistical and let their vocation constantly reflect in their lives.
“In the past deacons had become too powerful. You must spread the word of the church. Use the ministry to unify and not divide the church. Do the will of God from your heart so you will be firmly rooted and grounded in faith,” Gilbert said. He also advised the deacons to ensure that their new responsibility is surrounded around their wives and families. “Your ministry has to be centred around them because they are the most important people in your lives.” Meanwhile, Gilbert also took the opportunity to applaud members of the faith who contributed to donations for Haiti following the catastrophic earthquake that struck three weeks ago. Gilbert said the church raised close to $2 million and counting.
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The Leaders of the Catholic from Pope on down should be charged with aiding and abetting and harboring criminals....simple
AMEN ... .ah mean cosign.
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more inaction. ah mean this feigned concern is worst than disgusting. why no censure from de catholic church? is funny (strange) de kind of people de catholic church ready to excommunicate (mother of 9-year old in brazil (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7930380.stm)). like dey cyah clean up dey own yard with de same kokeyea broom ?
==
Pope condemns child abuse as 'heinous crime'
(http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/02/16/pope.church.child.abuse/index.html)
Rome, Italy (CNN) -- The sexual abuse of children is not just a "heinous crime" but a "grave sin" that offends God and wounds human dignity, Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday after a two-day meeting with Irish Catholic bishops at the Vatican.
The weakening of faith has also been a "significant contributing factor" in the sexual abuse of minors, the pope said, adding that "current painful situation will not be resolved quickly."
The pope's comments came in a written Vatican statement at the end of the meeting, the largest one yet about the scandal that has rocked the church from Ireland to the Vatican and beyond.
A damning report by an independent Irish commission in November found the Catholic Church in Ireland had covered up the "widespread" abuse of children from 1975 to 2004.
It led to the resignation of four Irish bishops late last year and prompted the pope to say at the time he was "deeply disturbed and distressed" by the report's findings.
There was no discussion at the latest meeting about further resignations, said papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi.
Those at the meeting this week "recognized that this grave crisis has led to a breakdown in trust in the church's leadership and has damaged (the church's) witness to the gospel and its moral teaching," the Vatican statement said.
"The bishops spoke frankly of the sense of pain and anger, betrayal, scandal and shame expressed to them on numerous occasions by those who had been abused," it said.
It said "significant measures have now been taken" to ensure the safety of children in the church.
"For his part, the Holy Father observed that the sexual abuse of children and young people is not only a heinous crime, but also a grave sin which offends God and wounds the dignity of the human person created in his image," the statement said.
The pope challenged the bishops to address past problems with "determination and resolve" and to face the current crisis with "honesty and courage."
"The Holy Father also pointed to the more general crisis of faith affecting the church and he linked that to the lack of respect for the human person, and how the weakening of faith has been a significant contributing factor in the phenomenon of the sexual abuse of minors," the statement said.
"He stressed the need for a deeper theological reflection on the whole issue, and called for an improved human, spiritual, academic and pastoral preparation both of candidates for the priesthood and religious life and of those already ordained and professed."
The pope wrote a pastoral letter to Irish Catholics to be issued during Lent, the 40-day period between Ash Wednesday, which happens tomorrow, and Easter, the Vatican said.
"The Holy Father has asked that this Lent be set aside as a time for imploring an outpouring of God's mercy and the holy spirit's gifts of holiness and strength upon the church in Ireland," the statement said.
At a Mass in Rome on Monday before meeting the pope, the Irish Catholic bishops prayed for the victims of the abuse in Ireland, said their spokesman, Martin Long.
One of the bishops said Sunday that the church in Ireland had been badly damaged by the revelations of abuse and cover-up.
"I would admit quite frankly what everybody else knows, shouted from house tops, that the church has been seriously wounded," Bishop Joseph Duffy said in Rome.
"This has done an immense damage to the authority of the church as the mouthpiece of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Of that there is no doubt," he said.
The pope already met in December with senior Irish bishops about the report, produced by the Dublin Archdiocese Commission of Investigation. The Irish government created the commission in 2006 to examine abuse allegations.
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Wife of televangelist Benny Hinn files for divorce
AP
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FILE - This Jan. 11, 2002 picture shows evangelist Benny Hinn during a service AP – FILE - This Jan. 11, 2002 picture shows evangelist Benny Hinn during a service at the Blaisdell Concert …
By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 11 mins ago
ORANGE, Calif. – The wife of televangelist Benny Hinn has filed for divorce in Southern California.
Suzanne Hinn filed the papers in Orange County Superior Court on Feb. 1, citing irreconcilable differences, after more than 30 years of marriage. The papers note the two separated on Jan. 26 and that Hinn has been living in Dana Point, a wealthy coastal community in southern Orange County.
Hinn is one of the best known advocates of the prosperity gospel, which teaches that Christians who are right with God will be rewarded with wealth and health in this lifetime.
His TV broadcasts on the Trinity Broadcast Network, a Pentecostal broadcasting juggernaut, and other TV networks are seen by millions of people around the world nearly every day. He travels the globe in his ministry's plane, named Dove One, holding events he calls "Miracle Crusades" that include spiritual healings.
Hinn has never fully publicly disclosed how he spends the money he raises, but his vast ministry is believed to be a multimillion-dollar operation. There was no mention of finances in the court filing, which listed three recent Southern California addresses for the family.
Over the years, Hinn has been the target of intense criticism from fellow Christians and watchdog groups who call his teachings false and accuse him of raising money only to enrich himself.
He is one of six televangelists under investigation by Sen. Charles Grassley, the Iowa Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, over whether he complied with IRS rules for nonprofits. Hinn has said on his Web site that external auditors ensure his compliance with IRS regulations and that in 2008, 88 percent of the money he collected was spent on ministry.
Benny Hinn Ministries is based in Grapevine, Texas, and operates a church and television studio in Aliso Viejo in California's Orange County, according to its Web site.
Sorrell Trope, the attorney listed on Suzanne Hinn's court filing, did not immediately return a call for comment.
J. Lee Grady, contributing editor of Charisma, a news magazine on the Pentecostal community, said Hinn's divorce is the latest in a string of high-profile ministry divorces and moral failures among the Pentecostal leaders, beginning with Ted Haggard's fall from grace in 2006.
He said Hinn's followers will want an explanation because of the high profile the couple had.
"It will be devastating to the people who have supported Benny Hinn's evangelistic work around the world," Grady said.
"Obviously because their ministry has been very public (and) they will need to issue a statement to their supporters to explain how this happened," he said.
____
Associated Press Religion Writer Rachel Zoll in New York contributed to this report.
-
Wife of televangelist Benny Hinn files for divorce
AP
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FILE - This Jan. 11, 2002 picture shows evangelist Benny Hinn during a service AP – FILE - This Jan. 11, 2002 picture shows evangelist Benny Hinn during a service at the Blaisdell Concert …
By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 11 mins ago
ORANGE, Calif. – The wife of televangelist Benny Hinn has filed for divorce in Southern California.
Suzanne Hinn filed the papers in Orange County Superior Court on Feb. 1, citing irreconcilable differences, after more than 30 years of marriage. The papers note the two separated on Jan. 26 and that Hinn has been living in Dana Point, a wealthy coastal community in southern Orange County.
Hinn is one of the best known advocates of the prosperity gospel, which teaches that Christians who are right with God will be rewarded with wealth and health in this lifetime.
His TV broadcasts on the Trinity Broadcast Network, a Pentecostal broadcasting juggernaut, and other TV networks are seen by millions of people around the world nearly every day. He travels the globe in his ministry's plane, named Dove One, holding events he calls "Miracle Crusades" that include spiritual healings.
Hinn has never fully publicly disclosed how he spends the money he raises, but his vast ministry is believed to be a multimillion-dollar operation. There was no mention of finances in the court filing, which listed three recent Southern California addresses for the family.
Over the years, Hinn has been the target of intense criticism from fellow Christians and watchdog groups who call his teachings false and accuse him of raising money only to enrich himself.
He is one of six televangelists under investigation by Sen. Charles Grassley, the Iowa Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, over whether he complied with IRS rules for nonprofits. Hinn has said on his Web site that external auditors ensure his compliance with IRS regulations and that in 2008, 88 percent of the money he collected was spent on ministry.
Benny Hinn Ministries is based in Grapevine, Texas, and operates a church and television studio in Aliso Viejo in California's Orange County, according to its Web site.
Sorrell Trope, the attorney listed on Suzanne Hinn's court filing, did not immediately return a call for comment.
J. Lee Grady, contributing editor of Charisma, a news magazine on the Pentecostal community, said Hinn's divorce is the latest in a string of high-profile ministry divorces and moral failures among the Pentecostal leaders, beginning with Ted Haggard's fall from grace in 2006.
He said Hinn's followers will want an explanation because of the high profile the couple had.
"It will be devastating to the people who have supported Benny Hinn's evangelistic work around the world," Grady said.
"Obviously because their ministry has been very public (and) they will need to issue a statement to their supporters to explain how this happened," he said.
____
Associated Press Religion Writer Rachel Zoll in New York contributed to this report.
maybe he should ask God to heal his marriage
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oouuucchhhhhh!!!!!!!! Talk about a slam Pecan. What is that a triple reverse?
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oouuucchhhhhh!!!!!!!! Talk about a slam Pecan. What is that a triple reverse?
the man is a charlatan and gives believers a bad rap.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=35955785�
More Catholic loving....NO f**kING APOLOGIES FOR THE TITLE EITHER!
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Pope apologizes in letter to Irish sex abuse victims
Philip Pullella, Reuters
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.nationalpost.com/0320-pope.jpg Peter Muhly/AFP/Getty Images
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict on Saturday apologized to victims of child sexual abuse by clergy in Ireland and announced a formal Vatican investigation of Irish Roman Catholic dioceses and seminaries hit by the abuse scandal.
In recent weeks, the Vatican has been trying to contain damage as a string of scandals over sexual abuse of children by priests has hit Ireland, Germany, Austria and the Netherlands.
"You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry ... I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel," he said in an unprecedented letter covering sexual abuse of minors by clergy in Ireland.
The letter, addressed to the people, bishops, priests and victims of abuse in the overwhelmingly Catholic country, did not make any specific reference to the scandals rocking Churches in other countries, particularly the pope's native Germany.
"I can only share in the dismay and sense of betrayal that so many of you have experienced on learning of these sinful and criminal acts and the way the Church authorities in Ireland dealt with them," he said.
But the pope did not address widespread calls in Ireland for a radical restructuring of the church there nor did he say that bishops implicated in the scandal should resign.
The pope announced what is known as an "apostolic visitation" of "certain" dioceses, seminaries and religious orders in Ireland.
An apostolic visitation is an inquiry in which inspectors meet bishops, seminary or convent directors and local church officials to review the way matters were handled in the past, to suggest changes and decide possible disciplinary action.
The pope said details of the investigation would be announced "in due course".
Benedict singled out Irish bishops for criticism of their handling of abuse cases in the past.
"It must be admitted that grave errors of judgment were made and failures of leadership occurred. All this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness," he said.
He added: "Only decisive action carried out with complete honesty and transparency will restore the respect and goodwill of the Irish people towards the Church to which we have consecrated our lives," he said.
The letter, the first papal document devoted exclusively to paedophilia, follows a damning Irish government report on widespread child abuse by priests in the Dublin archdiocese.
The Murphy Report, published in November, said the church in Ireland had "obsessively" concealed child abuse in the Dublin archdiocese from 1975 to 2004, and operated a policy of "don't ask, don't tell".
The latest scandal in Germany is especially delicate for German-born Benedict, Munich's bishop from 1977 to 1981.
With public opinion in Germany boiling as more cases of abuse emerge, the vice president of the Bundestag lower house, Wolfgang Thierse, called for him to apologise on behalf of those responsible. Last week the head of Germany's Catholic Church apologised to victims of child abuse by priests when he came to Rome for a routine visit that was transformed into a crisis management meeting.
Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, head of the German Bishops' Conference, briefed Benedict about the situation in Germany, where more than 100 reports have emerged of abuse at Catholic institutions, including one linked to the prestigious Regensburg choir run by the pope's brother from 1964 to 1994.
© Thomson Reuters 2010
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Here is the letter from the Pope
Source - The Vatican (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html)
PASTORAL LETTER
OF THE HOLY FATHER
POPE BENEDICT XVI
TO THE CATHOLICS OF IRELAND
(http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/img/stemma_bxvi.jpg)
1. Dear Brothers and Sisters of the Church in Ireland, it is with great concern that I write to you as Pastor of the universal Church. Like yourselves, I have been deeply disturbed by the information which has come to light regarding the abuse of children and vulnerable young people by members of the Church in Ireland, particularly by priests and religious. I can only share in the dismay and the sense of betrayal that so many of you have experienced on learning of these sinful and criminal acts and the way Church authorities in Ireland dealt with them.
As you know, I recently invited the Irish bishops to a meeting here in Rome to give an account of their handling of these matters in the past and to outline the steps they have taken to respond to this grave situation. Together with senior officials of the Roman Curia, I listened to what they had to say, both individually and as a group, as they offered an analysis of mistakes made and lessons learned, and a description of the programmes and protocols now in place. Our discussions were frank and constructive. I am confident that, as a result, the bishops will now be in a stronger position to carry forward the work of repairing past injustices and confronting the broader issues associated with the abuse of minors in a way consonant with the demands of justice and the teachings of the Gospel.
2. For my part, considering the gravity of these offences, and the often inadequate response to them on the part of the ecclesiastical authorities in your country, I have decided to write this Pastoral Letter to express my closeness to you and to propose a path of healing, renewal and reparation.
It is true, as many in your country have pointed out, that the problem of child abuse is peculiar neither to Ireland nor to the Church. Nevertheless, the task you now face is to address the problem of abuse that has occurred within the Irish Catholic community, and to do so with courage and determination. No one imagines that this painful situation will be resolved swiftly. Real progress has been made, yet much more remains to be done. Perseverance and prayer are needed, with great trust in the healing power of God’s grace.
At the same time, I must also express my conviction that, in order to recover from this grievous wound, the Church in Ireland must first acknowledge before the Lord and before others the serious sins committed against defenceless children. Such an acknowledgement, accompanied by sincere sorrow for the damage caused to these victims and their families, must lead to a concerted effort to ensure the protection of children from similar crimes in the future.
As you take up the challenges of this hour, I ask you to remember “the rock from which you were hewn” (Is 51:1). Reflect upon the generous, often heroic, contributions made by past generations of Irish men and women to the Church and to humanity as a whole, and let this provide the impetus for honest self-examination and a committed programme of ecclesial and individual renewal. It is my prayer that, assisted by the intercession of her many saints and purified through penance, the Church in Ireland will overcome the present crisis and become once more a convincing witness to the truth and the goodness of Almighty God, made manifest in his Son Jesus Christ.
3. Historically, the Catholics of Ireland have proved an enormous force for good at home and abroad. Celtic monks like Saint Columbanus spread the Gospel in Western Europe and laid the foundations of medieval monastic culture. The ideals of holiness, charity and transcendent wisdom born of the Christian faith found expression in the building of churches and monasteries and the establishment of schools, libraries and hospitals, all of which helped to consolidate the spiritual identity of Europe. Those Irish missionaries drew their strength and inspiration from the firm faith, strong leadership and upright morals of the Church in their native land.
From the sixteenth century on, Catholics in Ireland endured a long period of persecution, during which they struggled to keep the flame of faith alive in dangerous and difficult circumstances. Saint Oliver Plunkett, the martyred Archbishop of Armagh, is the most famous example of a host of courageous sons and daughters of Ireland who were willing to lay down their lives out of fidelity to the Gospel. After Catholic Emancipation, the Church was free to grow once more. Families and countless individuals who had preserved the faith in times of trial became the catalyst for the great resurgence of Irish Catholicism in the nineteenth century. The Church provided education, especially for the poor, and this was to make a major contribution to Irish society. Among the fruits of the new Catholic schools was a rise in vocations: generations of missionary priests, sisters and brothers left their homeland to serve in every continent, especially in the English-speaking world. They were remarkable not only for their great numbers, but for the strength of their faith and the steadfastness of their pastoral commitment. Many dioceses, especially in Africa, America and Australia, benefited from the presence of Irish clergy and religious who preached the Gospel and established parishes, schools and universities, clinics and hospitals that served both Catholics and the community at large, with particular attention to the needs of the poor.
In almost every family in Ireland, there has been someone – a son or a daughter, an aunt or an uncle – who has given his or her life to the Church. Irish families rightly esteem and cherish their loved ones who have dedicated their lives to Christ, sharing the gift of faith with others, and putting that faith into action in loving service of God and neighbour.
4. In recent decades, however, the Church in your country has had to confront new and serious challenges to the faith arising from the rapid transformation and secularization of Irish society. Fast-paced social change has occurred, often adversely affecting people’s traditional adherence to Catholic teaching and values. All too often, the sacramental and devotional practices that sustain faith and enable it to grow, such as frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected. Significant too was the tendency during this period, also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. The programme of renewal proposed by the Second Vatican Council was sometimes misinterpreted and indeed, in the light of the profound social changes that were taking place, it was far from easy to know how best to implement it. In particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings.
Only by examining carefully the many elements that gave rise to the present crisis can a clear-sighted diagnosis of its causes be undertaken and effective remedies be found. Certainly, among the contributing factors we can include: inadequate procedures for determining the suitability of candidates for the priesthood and the religious life; insufficient human, moral, intellectual and spiritual formation in seminaries and novitiates; a tendency in society to favour the clergy and other authority figures; and a misplaced concern for the reputation of the Church and the avoidance of scandal, resulting in failure to apply existing canonical penalties and to safeguard the dignity of every person. Urgent action is needed to address these factors, which have had such tragic consequences in the lives of victims and their families, and have obscured the light of the Gospel to a degree that not even centuries of persecution succeeded in doing.
5. On several occasions since my election to the See of Peter, I have met with victims of sexual abuse, as indeed I am ready to do in the future. I have sat with them, I have listened to their stories, I have acknowledged their suffering, and I have prayed with them and for them. Earlier in my pontificate, in my concern to address this matter, I asked the bishops of Ireland, “to establish the truth of what happened in the past, to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent it from occurring again, to ensure that the principles of justice are fully respected, and above all, to bring healing to the victims and to all those affected by these egregious crimes” (Address to the Bishops of Ireland, 28 October 2006).
With this Letter, I wish to exhort all of you, as God’s people in Ireland, to reflect on the wounds inflicted on Christ’s body, the sometimes painful remedies needed to bind and heal them, and the need for unity, charity and mutual support in the long-term process of restoration and ecclesial renewal. I now turn to you with words that come from my heart, and I wish to speak to each of you individually and to all of you as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
6. To the victims of abuse and their families
You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen. Those of you who were abused in residential institutions must have felt that there was no escape from your sufferings. It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel. At the same time, I ask you not to lose hope. It is in the communion of the Church that we encounter the person of Jesus Christ, who was himself a victim of injustice and sin. Like you, he still bears the wounds of his own unjust suffering. He understands the depths of your pain and its enduring effect upon your lives and your relationships, including your relationship with the Church. I know some of you find it difficult even to enter the doors of a church after all that has occurred. Yet Christ’s own wounds, transformed by his redemptive sufferings, are the very means by which the power of evil is broken and we are reborn to life and hope. I believe deeply in the healing power of his self-sacrificing love – even in the darkest and most hopeless situations – to bring liberation and the promise of a new beginning.
Speaking to you as a pastor concerned for the good of all God’s children, I humbly ask you to consider what I have said. I pray that, by drawing nearer to Christ and by participating in the life of his Church – a Church purified by penance and renewed in pastoral charity – you will come to rediscover Christ’s infinite love for each one of you. I am confident that in this way you will be able to find reconciliation, deep inner healing and peace.
7. To priests and religious who have abused children
You betrayed the trust that was placed in you by innocent young people and their parents, and you must answer for it before Almighty God and before properly constituted tribunals. You have forfeited the esteem of the people of Ireland and brought shame and dishonour upon your confreres. Those of you who are priests violated the sanctity of the sacrament of Holy Orders in which Christ makes himself present in us and in our actions. Together with the immense harm done to victims, great damage has been done to the Church and to the public perception of the priesthood and religious life.
I urge you to examine your conscience, take responsibility for the sins you have committed, and humbly express your sorrow. Sincere repentance opens the door to God’s forgiveness and the grace of true amendment. By offering prayers and penances for those you have wronged, you should seek to atone personally for your actions. Christ’s redeeming sacrifice has the power to forgive even the gravest of sins, and to bring forth good from even the most terrible evil. At the same time, God’s justice summons us to give an account of our actions and to conceal nothing. Openly acknowledge your guilt, submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God’s mercy.
8. To parents
You have been deeply shocked to learn of the terrible things that took place in what ought to be the safest and most secure environment of all. In today’s world it is not easy to build a home and to bring up children. They deserve to grow up in security, loved and cherished, with a strong sense of their identity and worth. They have a right to be educated in authentic moral values rooted in the dignity of the human person, to be inspired by the truth of our Catholic faith and to learn ways of behaving and acting that lead to healthy self-esteem and lasting happiness. This noble but demanding task is entrusted in the first place to you, their parents. I urge you to play your part in ensuring the best possible care of children, both at home and in society as a whole, while the Church, for her part, continues to implement the measures adopted in recent years to protect young people in parish and school environments. As you carry out your vital responsibilities, be assured that I remain close to you and I offer you the support of my prayers.
9. To the children and young people of Ireland
I wish to offer you a particular word of encouragement. Your experience of the Church is very different from that of your parents and grandparents. The world has changed greatly since they were your age. Yet all people, in every generation, are called to travel the same path through life, whatever their circumstances may be. We are all scandalized by the sins and failures of some of the Church's members, particularly those who were chosen especially to guide and serve young people. But it is in the Church that you will find Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today and for ever (cf. Heb 13:8). He loves you and he has offered himself on the cross for you. Seek a personal relationship with him within the communion of his Church, for he will never betray your trust! He alone can satisfy your deepest longings and give your lives their fullest meaning by directing them to the service of others. Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus and his goodness, and shelter the flame of faith in your heart. Together with your fellow Catholics in Ireland, I look to you to be faithful disciples of our Lord and to bring your much-needed enthusiasm and idealism to the rebuilding and renewal of our beloved Church.
10. To the priests and religious of Ireland
All of us are suffering as a result of the sins of our confreres who betrayed a sacred trust or failed to deal justly and responsibly with allegations of abuse. In view of the outrage and indignation which this has provoked, not only among the lay faithful but among yourselves and your religious communities, many of you feel personally discouraged, even abandoned. I am also aware that in some people’s eyes you are tainted by association, and viewed as if you were somehow responsible for the misdeeds of others. At this painful time, I want to acknowledge the dedication of your priestly and religious lives and apostolates, and I invite you to reaffirm your faith in Christ, your love of his Church and your confidence in the Gospel's promise of redemption, forgiveness and interior renewal. In this way, you will demonstrate for all to see that where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more (cf. Rom 5:20).
I know that many of you are disappointed, bewildered and angered by the way these matters have been handled by some of your superiors. Yet, it is essential that you cooperate closely with those in authority and help to ensure that the measures adopted to respond to the crisis will be truly evangelical, just and effective. Above all, I urge you to become ever more clearly men and women of prayer, courageously following the path of conversion, purification and reconciliation. In this way, the Church in Ireland will draw new life and vitality from your witness to the Lord's redeeming power made visible in your lives.
11. To my brother bishops
It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse. Serious mistakes were made in responding to allegations. I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgement were made and failures of leadership occurred. All this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness. I appreciate the efforts you have made to remedy past mistakes and to guarantee that they do not happen again. Besides fully implementing the norms of canon law in addressing cases of child abuse, continue to cooperate with the civil authorities in their area of competence. Clearly, religious superiors should do likewise. They too have taken part in recent discussions here in Rome with a view to establishing a clear and consistent approach to these matters. It is imperative that the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland be continually revised and updated and that they be applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law.
Only decisive action carried out with complete honesty and transparency will restore the respect and good will of the Irish people towards the Church to which we have consecrated our lives. This must arise, first and foremost, from your own self-examination, inner purification and spiritual renewal. The Irish people rightly expect you to be men of God, to be holy, to live simply, to pursue personal conversion daily. For them, in the words of Saint Augustine, you are a bishop; yet with them you are called to be a follower of Christ (cf. Sermon 340, 1). I therefore exhort you to renew your sense of accountability before God, to grow in solidarity with your people and to deepen your pastoral concern for all the members of your flock. In particular, I ask you to be attentive to the spiritual and moral lives of each one of your priests. Set them an example by your own lives, be close to them, listen to their concerns, offer them encouragement at this difficult time and stir up the flame of their love for Christ and their commitment to the service of their brothers and sisters.
The lay faithful, too, should be encouraged to play their proper part in the life of the Church. See that they are formed in such a way that they can offer an articulate and convincing account of the Gospel in the midst of modern society (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and cooperate more fully in the Church’s life and mission. This in turn will help you once again become credible leaders and witnesses to the redeeming truth of Christ.
12. To all the faithful of Ireland
A young person’s experience of the Church should always bear fruit in a personal and life-giving encounter with Jesus Christ within a loving, nourishing community. In this environment, young people should be encouraged to grow to their full human and spiritual stature, to aspire to high ideals of holiness, charity and truth, and to draw inspiration from the riches of a great religious and cultural tradition. In our increasingly secularized society, where even we Christians often find it difficult to speak of the transcendent dimension of our existence, we need to find new ways to pass on to young people the beauty and richness of friendship with Jesus Christ in the communion of his Church. In confronting the present crisis, measures to deal justly with individual crimes are essential, yet on their own they are not enough: a new vision is needed, to inspire present and future generations to treasure the gift of our common faith. By treading the path marked out by the Gospel, by observing the commandments and by conforming your lives ever more closely to the figure of Jesus Christ, you will surely experience the profound renewal that is so urgently needed at this time. I invite you all to persevere along this path.
13. Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, it is out of deep concern for all of you at this painful time in which the fragility of the human condition has been so starkly revealed that I have wished to offer these words of encouragement and support. I hope that you will receive them as a sign of my spiritual closeness and my confidence in your ability to respond to the challenges of the present hour by drawing renewed inspiration and strength from Ireland’s noble traditions of fidelity to the Gospel, perseverance in the faith and steadfastness in the pursuit of holiness.In solidarity with all of you, I am praying earnestly that, by God’s grace, the wounds afflicting so many individuals and families may be healed and that the Church in Ireland may experience a season of rebirth and spiritual renewal.
14. I now wish to propose to you some concrete initiatives to address the situation.
At the conclusion of my meeting with the Irish bishops, I asked that Lent this year be set aside as a time to pray for an outpouring of God’s mercy and the Holy Spirit’s gifts of holiness and strength upon the Church in your country. I now invite all of you to devote your Friday penances, for a period of one year, between now and Easter 2011, to this intention. I ask you to offer up your fasting, your prayer, your reading of Scripture and your works of mercy in order to obtain the grace of healing and renewal for the Church in Ireland. I encourage you to discover anew the sacrament of Reconciliation and to avail yourselves more frequently of the transforming power of its grace.
Particular attention should also be given to Eucharistic adoration, and in every diocese there should be churches or chapels specifically devoted to this purpose. I ask parishes, seminaries, religious houses and monasteries to organize periods of Eucharistic adoration, so that all have an opportunity to take part. Through intense prayer before the real presence of the Lord, you can make reparation for the sins of abuse that have done so much harm, at the same time imploring the grace of renewed strength and a deeper sense of mission on the part of all bishops, priests, religious and lay faithful.
I am confident that this programme will lead to a rebirth of the Church in Ireland in the fullness of God’s own truth, for it is the truth that sets us free (cf. Jn 8:32).
Furthermore, having consulted and prayed about the matter, I intend to hold an Apostolic Visitation of certain dioceses in Ireland, as well as seminaries and religious congregations. Arrangements for the Visitation, which is intended to assist the local Church on her path of renewal, will be made in cooperation with the competent offices of the Roman Curia and the Irish Episcopal Conference. The details will be announced in due course.
I also propose that a nationwide Mission be held for all bishops, priests and religious. It is my hope that, by drawing on the expertise of experienced preachers and retreat-givers from Ireland and from elsewhere, and by exploring anew the conciliar documents, the liturgical rites of ordination and profession, and recent pontifical teaching, you will come to a more profound appreciation of your respective vocations, so as to rediscover the roots of your faith in Jesus Christ and to drink deeply from the springs of living water that he offers you through his Church.
In this Year for Priests, I commend to you most particularly the figure of Saint John Mary Vianney, who had such a rich understanding of the mystery of the priesthood. “The priest”, he wrote, “holds the key to the treasures of heaven: it is he who opens the door: he is the steward of the good Lord; the administrator of his goods.” The Curé d’Ars understood well how greatly blessed a community is when served by a good and holy priest: “A good shepherd, a pastor after God’s heart, is the greatest treasure which the good Lord can grant to a parish, and one of the most precious gifts of divine mercy.” Through the intercession of Saint John Mary Vianney, may the priesthood in Ireland be revitalized, and may the whole Church in Ireland grow in appreciation for the great gift of the priestly ministry.
I take this opportunity to thank in anticipation all those who will be involved in the work of organizing the Apostolic Visitation and the Mission, as well as the many men and women throughout Ireland already working for the safety of children in church environments. Since the time when the gravity and extent of the problem of child sexual abuse in Catholic institutions first began to be fully grasped, the Church has done an immense amount of work in many parts of the world in order to address and remedy it. While no effort should be spared in improving and updating existing procedures, I am encouraged by the fact that the current safeguarding practices adopted by local Churches are being seen, in some parts of the world, as a model for other institutions to follow.
I wish to conclude this Letter with a special Prayer for the Church in Ireland, which I send to you with the care of a father for his children and with the affection of a fellow Christian, scandalized and hurt by what has occurred in our beloved Church. As you make use of this prayer in your families, parishes and communities, may the Blessed Virgin Mary protect and guide each of you to a closer union with her Son, crucified and risen. With great affection and unswerving confidence in God’s promises, I cordially impart to all of you my Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of strength and peace in the Lord.
From the Vatican, 19 March 2010, on the Solemnity of Saint Joseph
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
Prayer for the Church in Ireland
God of our fathers,
renew us in the faith which is our life and salvation,
the hope which promises forgiveness and interior renewal,
the charity which purifies and opens our hearts
to love you, and in you, each of our brothers and sisters.
Lord Jesus Christ,
may the Church in Ireland renew her age-old commitment
to the education of our young people in the way of truth and goodness, holiness and generous service to society.
Holy Spirit, comforter, advocate and guide,
inspire a new springtime of holiness and apostolic zeal
for the Church in Ireland.
May our sorrow and our tears,
our sincere effort to redress past wrongs,
and our firm purpose of amendment
bear an abundant harvest of grace
for the deepening of the faith
in our families, parishes, schools and communities,
for the spiritual progress of Irish society,
and the growth of charity, justice, joy and peace
within the whole human family.
To you, Triune God,
confident in the loving protection of Mary,
Queen of Ireland, our Mother,
and of Saint Patrick, Saint Brigid and all the saints,
do we entrust ourselves, our children,
and the needs of the Church in Ireland.
Amen.
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Here is what Christopher Hitchens have to say about the issue
Source - slate.com (http://www.slate.com/id/2247861/)
On March 10, the chief exorcist of the Vatican, the Rev. Gabriele Amorth (who has held this demanding post for 25 years), was quoted as saying that “the Devil is at work inside the Vatican,” and that “when one speaks of ‘the smoke of Satan’ in the holy rooms, it is all true — including these latest stories of violence and pedophilia.” This can perhaps be taken as confirmation that something horrible has indeed been going on in the holy precincts, though most inquiries show it to have a perfectly good material explanation.
Pope Benedict led the Church department in 2001 that investigated allegations of child rape by priests.
Concerning the most recent revelations about the steady complicity of the Vatican in the ongoing — indeed endless — scandal of child rape, a few days later a spokesman for the Holy See made a concession in the guise of a denial. It was clear, said the Rev. Federico Lombardi, that an attempt was being made “to find elements to involve the Holy Father personally in issues of abuse.” He stupidly went on to say that “those efforts have failed.”
He was wrong twice. In the first place, nobody has had to strive to find such evidence: It has surfaced, as it was bound to do. In the second place, this extension of the awful scandal to the topmost level of the Roman Catholic Church is a process that has only just begun. Yet it became in a sense inevitable when the College of Cardinals elected, as the vicar of Christ on Earth, the man chiefly responsible for the original cover-up. (One of the sanctified voters in that “election” was Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, a man who had already found the jurisdiction of Massachusetts a bit too warm for his liking.)
There are two separate but related matters here: First, the individual responsibility of the Pope in one instance of this moral nightmare and, second, his more general and institutional responsibility for the wider lawbreaking and for the shame and disgrace that goes with it. The first story is easily told, and it is not denied by anybody. In 1979, an 11-year-old German boy identified as Wilfried F. was taken on a vacation trip to the mountains by a priest. After that, he was administered alcohol, locked in his bedroom, stripped naked and forced to suck the penis of his confessor. (Why do we limit ourselves to calling this sort of thing “abuse”?) The offending cleric was transferred from Essen to Munich for “therapy” by a decision of then-Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, and assurances were given that he would no longer have children in his care. But it took no time for Ratzinger’s deputy, Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, to return him to “pastoral” work, where he soon enough resumed his career of sexual assault.
It is, of course, claimed, and it will no doubt later be partially un-claimed, that Ratzinger himself knew nothing of this second outrage. I quote, here, from the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a former employee of the Vatican Embassy in Washington and an early critic of the Catholic Church’s sloth in responding to child-rape allegations. “Nonsense,” he says. “Pope Benedict is a micro-manager. He’s the old style. Anything like that would necessarily have been brought to his attention. Tell the vicar general to find a better line. What he’s trying to do, obviously, is protect the Pope.”
This is common or garden stuff, very familiar to American and Australian and Irish Catholics whose children’s rape and torture, and the cover-up of same by the tactic of moving rapists and torturers from parish to parish, has been painstakingly and comprehensively exposed. It’s on a level with the recent belated admission by the Pope’s brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, that while he knew nothing about sexual assault at the choir school he ran between 1964 and 1994, now that he remembers it, he is sorry for his practice of slapping the boys around.
Very much more serious is the role of Joseph Ratzinger, before the church decided to make him supreme leader, in obstructing justice on a global scale. After his promotion to cardinal, he was put in charge of the so-called “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith” (formerly known as the Inquisition). In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.” Nobody has yet been excommunicated for the rape and torture of children, but exposing the offence could get you into serious trouble. And this is the church that warns us against moral relativism! (See, for more on this appalling document, two reports in the London Observer of April 24, 2005, by Jamie Doward.)
Not content with shielding its own priests from the law, Ratzinger’s office even wrote its own private statute of limitations. The church’s jurisdiction, claimed Ratzinger, “begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age” and then lasts for 10 more years. Daniel Shea, the attorney for two victims who sued Ratzinger and a church in Texas, correctly describes that latter stipulation as an obstruction of justice. “You can’t investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10, the priest will get away with it.”
The next item on this grisly docket will be the revival of the long-standing allegations against the Rev. Marcial Maciel, founder of the ultra-reactionary Legion of Christ, in which sexual assault seems to have been almost part of the liturgy. Senior ex-members of this secretive order found their complaints ignored and overridden by Ratzinger during the 1990s, if only because Father Maciel had been praised by the then-Pope John Paul II as an “efficacious guide to youth.” And now behold the harvest of this long campaign of obfuscation. The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime. Ratzinger himself may be banal, but his whole career has the stench of evil — a clinging and systematic evil that is beyond the power of exorcism to dispel. What is needed is not medieval incantation but the application of justice — and speedily at that.
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That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
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That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
I cannot disagree with you. They knew and covered up.
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That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Why? BC you opposed! stueps! it have better places tuh put yuh energy my friend! religion doh hurt ppl, is ppl who does hurt ppl by not having enough sense tuh differentiate fiction from reality.
i would rather see you go on ah serious campaign to oust , guns, liqour, cigarette, genetically modified foods, reduce chemical engineering, abolish fossil fuel and push hard for renewable energy, since these things actually cause millions of death every yrs.
religion eh killin no body in trinidad! as ah matter of fact, iz BC we grandmudda and grand farrder used tuh push religious values down we throat, kept us from being as disrespectful of human life like this new religiousless crack baby generation, who killing ppl like foul in TNT.
as you said , is time for the world tuh open their eyes yes, but not so much against religion, but more-so @ the BS norms that is destroying us/ health wise from the floor up in this new world society!
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That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Why? BC you opposed! stueps! it have better places tuh put yuh energy my friend! religion doh hurt ppl, is ppl who does hurt ppl by not having enough sense tuh differentiate fiction from reality.
i would rather see you go on ah serious campaign to oust , guns, liqour, cigarette, genetically modified foods, reduce chemical engineering, abolish fossil fuel and push hard for renewable energy, since these things actually cause millions of death every yrs.
religion eh killin no body in trinidad! as ah matter of fact, iz BC we grandmudda and grand farrder used tuh push religious values down we throat, kept us from being as disrespectful of human life like this new religiousless crack baby generation, who killing ppl like foul in TNT.
as you said , is time for the world tuh open their eyes yes, but not so much against religion, but more-so @ the BS norms that is destroying us/ health wise from the floor up in this new world society!
boss f**k re;ligion and f**k de stinking nasty catholic church even more
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Swiss Catholic Church investigating 10 abuse cases
Reuters
A general view shows Basel's bishop's palace in Solothurn Reuters – A general view shows Basel's bishop's palace, the St.Ursen Cathedral in Solothurn, March 20, …
2 hrs 20 mins ago
ZURICH (Reuters) – The Swiss Catholic Church is investigating around 10 allegations of abuse by clergy, including some acts committed since 2001, making Switzerland the latest country to be hit by a wave of scandal sweeping Europe.
In a pastoral letter on Saturday, Pope Benedict apologized to victims of child sex abuse by clergy in Ireland and ordered an official inquiry there.
The Swiss Bishops' Conference said the Pope's letter confirmed the church in Switzerland had acted correctly in dealing with cases of abuse, and added that it had already worked together with victims to report abuse to the authorities.
"The letter supports the guidelines that the Church introduced for cases of sexual abuse in 2002," said Conference spokesman Walter Mueller.
The Diocese of Chur, in eastern Switzerland, said it was investigating around 10 complaints of abuse. "Our primary goal now is to help the victims," the bishop's representative, Christoph Casetti, told national Swiss television station SF1.
The abbot of a monastery in the diocese said at least three of the 77 monks at Einsiedeln had committed acts of abuse since he took up office in December 2001, but no legal action had been taken in any of the cases.
"The victims or their representatives said expressly that they did not want it," Abbot Martin Werlen told SF1. There had also been two cases of abuse at the monastery school in the 1970s, resulting in one monk being moved to another post.
Last week, a priest resigned from his post at a parish church in Chur diocese after admitting abusing a child 40 years ago, when he worked in a different country.
Casetti said none of the cases under investigation was in connection to this priest. One of the priests involved had since died and the diocese was trying to get an overview of cases of abuse over the past 50 years, he said.
The leader of Germany's Roman Catholic Church said on Saturday that the Pope's apology was also clearly an admonition to bishops in his country.
Archbishop Robert Zollitsch also apologized for mistakes he made in failing to turn over a case of suspected abuse by a priest to state prosecutors when he was in charge of human resources in the Freiburg diocese years ago.
(Reporting by Jason Rhodes; editing by David Stamp)
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That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Why? BC you opposed! stueps! it have better places tuh put yuh energy my friend! religion doh hurt ppl, is ppl who does hurt ppl by not having enough sense tuh differentiate fiction from reality.
i would rather see you go on ah serious campaign to oust , guns, liqour, cigarette, genetically modified foods, reduce chemical engineering, abolish fossil fuel and push hard for renewable energy, since these things actually cause millions of death every yrs.
religion eh killin no body in trinidad! as ah matter of fact, iz BC we grandmudda and grand farrder used tuh push religious values down we throat, kept us from being as disrespectful of human life like this new religiousless crack baby generation, who killing ppl like foul in TNT.
as you said , is time for the world tuh open their eyes yes, but not so much against religion, but more-so @ the BS norms that is destroying us/ health wise from the floor up in this new world society!
boss f**k re;ligion and f**k de stinking nasty catholic church even more
I was expecting some feed back, that's the best you could do?
-
That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Why? BC you opposed! stueps! it have better places tuh put yuh energy my friend! religion doh hurt ppl, is ppl who does hurt ppl by not having enough sense tuh differentiate fiction from reality.
i would rather see you go on ah serious campaign to oust , guns, liqour, cigarette, genetically modified foods, reduce chemical engineering, abolish fossil fuel and push hard for renewable energy, since these things actually cause millions of death every yrs.
religion eh killin no body in trinidad! as ah matter of fact, iz BC we grandmudda and grand farrder used tuh push religious values down we throat, kept us from being as disrespectful of human life like this new religiousless crack baby generation, who killing ppl like foul in TNT.
as you said , is time for the world tuh open their eyes yes, but not so much against religion, but more-so @ the BS norms that is destroying us/ health wise from the floor up in this new world society!
boss f**k re;ligion and f**k de stinking nasty catholic church even more
guns doh hurt people, is people who does use guns to hurt people. same way they using religion to rape little children.
you know dem criminals religious-less? same ting with cigarettes food etc.
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I have said it before and I will say it again
That knowing the facts over the last many many years, It is just amazing that The Leaders of the Catholic Church from Pope on down have never been charged, not one of them, with aiding and abetting and harboring these criminals.
Maybe now that information has surfaced in Germany (http://thisblksistaspage.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/the-pope-linked-to-pedophile-cleric-in-germany/), this may change, but I am not holding my breath as it seems that those leaders are held to a higher standard and rise above being charged.
a quote from this article (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/now-pope-linked-to-child-abuse--coverup-2098327.html)
"as criticism mounted over a 2001 Vatican directive he penned instructing bishops to keep abuse cases secret."
der Teufel
This refers to the current Pope and I have read similar comments about previous Popes
Its a Crazy mixed up world we live in
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MAn advocating gun control, and not a peep about dese child rapers When I say people should open their eyes and leave that so-called religion he take me to task and bring up gun control...lol
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I know what it is
all dem Leaders have to do is say
2 hail marys and 5 our faddas and day good to BULL some More........simple....all is forgiven..........ENT ??
der Teufel
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I know what it is
all dem Leaders have to do is say
2 hail marys and 5 our faddas and day good to BULL some More........simple....all is forgiven..........ENT ??
der Teufel
God is love fella, and dem is He pussonal spokespersons here on earth
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MAn advocating gun control, and not a peep about dese child rapers When I say people should open their eyes and leave that so-called religion he take me to task and bring up gun control...lol
I don't see no where in the catholic creed where it says that it's OK tuh molest children!!! you on the other hand want ppl tuh abandon their religion BC of ah few miscreants, and i find that to be extremely simple, not to mention shallow and malicious!
the thing with you iz, since i came on this site, you've been ranting on about religion and religious figures alike, and despite tons and tons of rebuttal, which you seem to often ignore, we always wind up in this same place, square one!!
which leaves me to conclude that you're not about truth, but rather ah serious WITCH HUNT my friend!! there is no other way to describe it!
as for the guns in comparison with religion? there are ways to compare religion in the context that you described it, to the use of guns and chemicals that caused an alarming rate of cancer since their introduction, which in turn contribute to the most lost of life annually world wide! now isn't that ah greater cause for concern?
IF YOUR CONCERN IZ TRULY ABOUT THE HUMAN CONDITION, then there's bigger fish to fry, and bigger culprits to be had other than unscrupulous religious figures.
start wid the alcohol, fire arms and tobacco industry! then scoot over to the agricultural sector, that should keep yuh busy for @ least another decade! and yes it's that serious!
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JC, I eh presuming to speak on behalf of TC, but the problem with the Roman Catholic church is more that just "ah few miscreants". Time and time again, the priests who abused and mistreated the vulnerable in their congregation were simply shuffled to another Parish to repeat their sins, all with the knowledge of the hierarchy.
So the sins have long reaching tentacles that go all the way to the top.
Where TC and I disagree is that religion is bad. The problem is with the people who practice the religion. Some get it right and many get it wrong.
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JUST COOL ON A CRUSADE WITH ME, HE FEELS IN HIS HEAD THAT i AM AN EASY TARGET...LOL wrong!
The Catholic Church for f**king centuries has been RAPING children, always with the TACIT consent and approval of the Church's heirachy!
There is no way they can say that they have not been complicit in the substantial abuse of children ALL over the world. this translates into me having problems with them lol Well fella you too should have great trouble with them and the ABUSE of children.
All your rebuttal has been shit! ALL!!!!!
The Catholic Church has given succour and support to priests, Cardinals, Nazi war criminals and Communists who have killed many people.
The damn Pope was a member of Hitler's Nazi Youth Arm. He defended and hid MANY clergy who raped children. He prevented the arrest of those who harmed little children. He is a f**king apostate!
In Ireland, the head of the Catholic Church, Cardinal Sean Brady, has admitted that he was present at meetings in the 1970s when children who were abused by a pedophile priest were forced, there and then, to sign a vow of silence. Look at that! He reports to who again? Nasty f**kers..and you call thema few? Is de whole f**king Church breds!
That "Church" does still make beleive that all de baby rapers they have disguised as men of God are probably, on de whole, ah bad thing, they are not half as Satanic as stuff like condoms, socialism and gender equality. hahahahahaha Boy f**k dem and anyone who trying to defend that ka-ka hole organization eh.
Well,breds the sins of the FATHERS haunting the cyat to lick church!
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JUST COOL ON A CRUSADE WITH ME, HE FEELS IN HIS HEAD THAT i AM AN EASY TARGET...LOL wrong!
The Catholic Church for f**king centuries has been RAPING children, always with the TACIT consent and approval of the Church's heirachy!
There is no way they can say that they have not been complicit in the substantial abuse of children ALL over the world. this translates into me having problems with them lol Well fella you too should have great trouble with them and the ABUSE of children.
All your rebuttal has been shit! ALL!!!!!
The Catholic Church has given succour and support to priests, Cardinals, Nazi war criminals and Communists who have killed many people.
The damn Pope was a member of Hitler's Nazi Youth Arm. He defended and hid MANY clergy who raped children. He prevented the arrest of those who harmed little children. He is a f**king apostate!
In Ireland, the head of the Catholic Church, Cardinal Sean Brady, has admitted that he was present at meetings in the 1970s when children who were abused by a pedophile priest were forced, there and then, to sign a vow of silence. Look at that! He reports to who again? Nasty f**kers..and you call thema few? Is de whole f**king Church breds!
That "Church" does still make beleive that all de baby rapers they have disguised as men of God are probably, on de whole, ah bad thing, they are not half as Satanic as stuff like condoms, socialism and gender equality. hahahahahaha Boy f**k dem and anyone who trying to defend that ka-ka hole organization eh.
Well,breds the sins of the FATHERS haunting the cyat to lick church!
Breds, yuh still didn't answer my Q. i will repeat, where in the catholic creed does it state that it's OK to sodomize/ victimize children?
i doh have no beef wid you saying that the "CHURCH" does condone attacks on it's parishoners without very little repramand, yes, with that i'm in full agreement, but tuh say the whole religion is @ fault, iz just not fair.
lemme ask yuh this, did jesus molest children? BC jesus is the one who these ppl( church goers) claim too follow, not the clergy. and if you show me conclusive proof of misconduct on his path, then feel free tuh continue without any opposition from me,
but if yuh can't produce that evidence, then yuh should leave the religion out of it and place all yuh attention on the church and the clergy it self.
so unless you could show where jesus christ played with little children inappropriately, leave christianity be! but i know you can't do that , BC yuh just like yuh master, an accuser of the breddren! and if yuh can't find something ill about one religion, then no doubt you will jump on another.
your problem is not really wid the church or religion, your problem iz with God, and the possible existence of ah god! and the more you could air the dirt of any faith, the more yuh justify your disbelief to your self.
breds in truth , you don't need tuh go through all that to convince your self, just do you , who cares what ppl think, after all it's your life. just live and let live.
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lol..I doh believe it have ah God, so when people trying to say that they is the true faith and then rape chirren f**k dem. HYPOCRITES!
It does not say that slavery was wrong in the constitution either, so what if the church doh say it all right to f**k kiddies?
The fact is dey know it wrong and dey hide it, so if they hiding it and not prosecuting the offendin child molesters what does dat say?
If yuh doing crime yuh eh go advertise it. FACT IS MANY pedophiles know where to find chirren to rape, they become catholic priests, dey know dey go get away with it, the church go use it significant influence and might to hide dem and forgive dem and den reward dem by placing dem in new places to get new chirren!
I do not pretend to have a serious problem with religion, as I doh see it serving any real useful purpose other than to subjugate mankind.
IF you walk around saying dat raping children is a sin and wrong yet yuh continously hiding child rapers, protecting dem from the law, and then moving dem to places where they can readily abuse again...tell me what does that say about you? ANd is not a few yuh hiding, is not a short time yuh doing it, is since yuh start yuh church from all accords.
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JC, I eh presuming to speak on behalf of TC, but the problem with the Roman Catholic church is more that just "ah few miscreants". Time and time again, the priests who abused and mistreated the vulnerable in their congregation were simply shuffled to another Parish to repeat their sins, all with the knowledge of the hierarchy.
So the sins have long reaching tentacles that go all the way to the top.
Where TC and I disagree is that religion is bad. The problem is with the people who practice the religion. Some get it right and many get it wrong.
well said Pecan
Just Cool when the Leaders of any church, continually aid, abet, and harbor these criminals, it is the leaders who should be then charged....it is MANY years this goin on eh
But because it is The largest Christian Religion these leaders are not charged by the International Police.
Hear nuh, there was a priest who was sent here to the west coast about 5 years ago, Only 5 years ago, to teach in a Grade school....lemme repeat..........a GRADE SCHOOL
when a reporter started to investigate why a priest from the east coast of the USA was sent here, he Suddenly disappeared. The reporter continued her investigation and found out the the American and Canadian leaders of the RC Church kept his RECORD hidden and never informed the people here on the west coast....what you say about ALL them RC Leaders who made his move here possible
eh....what do you have to say
I really doh mean to single you out...I apologise
it is geared more to the SHEEP of that organisation who just ACCEPT what is going on and say NOTHING
Millions and Millions of members of the RC church MUST be right...ent??
You support the Ideology of the church, BUT the leaders of that same church do not follow their leader Jesus Christ
Where did christ say to do what they did during the spanish inquisition
where did Christ say to do what they did to "natives" of the new worlds when they cut off hands, legs and killed "natives" when they refused to "convert" to christianity.
Did christ preach what they did during the crusades.....killing innocent muslims
Did christ preach covering up the terrible things that priests have done to children
Did christ preach any of these things ???
NO ?? well then it is the Leadership of the church over the years, ever since Constantine took the religion under his care, that have failed.....yet no leader does what is right...not one
But I will say that they LOVE their religion steeped in ceremony and pomp.......it is just that all this distracts from the true preachings of their leader "JC"
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like allyuh cyar forkin read or what!! where in the fack did i side with the church on this issue? all i said was leave religion out of it, if yuh want tuh blame the clergy and the church then fine , but the religion itself have zilch tuh do wid the church and the clergy! allyuh cyar see allyuh preachin to the choir!
BTW, since when allyuh in agreement wid ah man who on ah obvious witch hunt against religion? don't you know this man have his priorities backward!
this same man would not dear go near the secret society dogs who mashing up the world in the name of progress! but he always on religion, when politicians is far more dangerous than clergymen could ever be
if allyuh think them raperman priest bad, allyuh better get ah load of them skulls and bones, building bergs, and Rosicrucian order dogs who's been killing foreign opposition, raping the wealth of impoverished countries and manipulation the world's resources for yrs!
and the bad part about it iz, he eh have nutten tuh say bout them, but he studying the bullerman priest dem. that's what yuh call having yuh priorities zig zag
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yuh too f**king lie! I told people to open they eye and leave de Catholic church and yuh say why.cuz I say so...and there the talk went on.
Get it straight, I starting tuh feel yuh is ah Priest
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this same man would not dear go near the secret society dogs who mashing up the world in the name of progress! but he always on religion, when politicians is far more dangerous than clergymen could ever be
if allyuh think them raperman priest bad, allyuh better get ah load of them skulls and bones, building bergs, and Rosicrucian order dogs who's been killing foreign opposition, raping the wealthy of impoverished countries and manipulation the world's resources for yrs!
:devil:
Ya know he cyar stand by and read what people have to say about the GREAT USA and their foreign policy Henchmen, the CIA.........at least that is who I think you reffering too there ;)
dais why it so...................but EVERY single Colonial power has acted that way over the centuries, so he shouldnt feel too bad
maybe you should read the website "the new american century (http://The Project for the New American Century/)"
daddy and baby Bush and their pardnas in dat
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yuh too f**king lie! I told people to open they eye and leave de Catholic church and yuh say why.cuz I say so...and there the talk went on.
Get it straight, I starting tuh feel yuh is ah Priest
I lie??!!, i feel yuhs some kinda mad fella yes! breds is ah good thing this discussion iz not verbal, and we could actually go back collect the statement and reproduce it to the author.
That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Now here's the evidence for which you deemed me ah lair, and i quoted " time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that sh!t RELIGION." not church, but RELIGION! NOW WHO'S THE LAIR??
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yuh too f**king lie! I told people to open they eye and leave de Catholic church and yuh say why.cuz I say so...and there the talk went on.
Get it straight, I starting tuh feel yuh is ah Priest
I lie??!!, i feel yuhs some kinda mad fella yes! breds is ah good thing this discussion iz not verbal, and we could actually go back collect the statement and reproduce it to the author.
That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Now here's the evidence for which you deemed me ah lair, and i quoted " time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that sh!t RELIGION." not church, but RELIGION! NOW WHO'S THE LAIR??
FELLA, YUH DON'T KNOW NHOW TO TAKE THINGS IN CONTEXT OR WHAT?
"That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!"
wHATW AS i TALKING ABOUT/ tHE cATHOLIC cHURCH LOL
i WAS TALKING ABOUT THE cATHOLIC CHURCH..i WOULD give you a lesson in English but me eh have time now.
But quickly, see the word THAT[/]....ok use whatever left of yuh brain stem to work it out...see that I was talking about the catholic church and I stated that people should open their eyes and leave THAT religion...now I know yuh want to discredit science, but like yuh looking for ah Dave/Jenny award too or wha?
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this is one sad thread for a number of reasons..
not the least of which is the laughable sight of this imps reach to telling people they should leave their religion....
just imagine i wasting my time fighting up and missing out on unbridled bliss when all the long trinity cross had the answers... lol
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this is one sad thread for a number of reasons..
not the least of which is the laughable sight of this imps reach to telling people they should leave their religion....
just imagine i wasting my time fighting up and missing out on unbridled bliss when all the long trinity cross had the answers... lol
Father have de answers alter boy.
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yuh too f**king lie! I told people to open they eye and leave de Catholic church and yuh say why.cuz I say so...and there the talk went on.
Get it straight, I starting tuh feel yuh is ah Priest
I lie??!!, i feel yuhs some kinda mad fella yes! breds is ah good thing this discussion iz not verbal, and we could actually go back collect the statement and reproduce it to the author.
That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!
Now here's the evidence for which you deemed me ah lair, and i quoted " time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that sh!t RELIGION." not church, but RELIGION! NOW WHO'S THE LAIR??
FELLA, YUH DON'T KNOW NHOW TO TAKE THINGS IN CONTEXT OR WHAT?
"That whole so-called Church endorsed illicit and illegal behaviors and actions by its priests' for agaes.
That is ah f**king hell hole.
time for the world to open their eyes and all sensible people leave that shit religion!"
wHATW AS i TALKING ABOUT/ tHE cATHOLIC cHURCH LOL
i WAS TALKING ABOUT THE cATHOLIC CHURCH..i WOULD give you a lesson in English but me eh have time now.
But quickly, see the word THAT[/]....ok use whatever left of yuh brain stem to work it out...see that I was talking about the catholic church and I stated that people should open their eyes and leave THAT religion...now I know yuh want to discredit science, but like yuh looking for ah Dave/Jenny award too or wha?
Well if it was written in it's proper context, then i wouldn't have any reason to take it out of context. and as far as the english lessons go, i think i'll pass on that since you need it much more than me!
PS: sir jack union! since when religion mean church and church mean religion? i coulda swear the catholic church BELONGED to the christian religion.
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shut up, it was written in proper context. You in yuh haste made an error not a biggie.
Anyone staying in an organization that harbors and tacitly endorses child abuse needs to have their f**king head examined!
Jesus Himself was reported to have said if anyone harms these little ones (Children) it would be better if a millstone were hung around his next and he be dropped into the ocean (my memory of the quote and it may not be exact)
But I is ah imps for advocating the shutting down ah dat f**king hellish so-called religion of baby rapers and others who hide and protect them.
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shut up, it was written in proper context. You in yuh haste made an error not a biggie.
Anyone staying in an organization that harbors and tacitly endorses child abuse needs to have their f**king head examined!
Jesus Himself was reported to have said if anyone harms these little ones (Children) it would be better if a millstone were hung around his next and he be dropped into the ocean (my memory of the quote and it may not be exact)
But I is ah imps for advocating the shutting down ah dat f**king hellish so-called religion of baby rapers and others who hide and protect them.
Why yuh doh just be honest and stop playing forkin games!!! your beef iz not only wid the catholic church, but rather all religion, hek even god himself!!!
is there any religion that yuh approve @ all?? why yuh doh go beyond the catholic church and just blow out full blast @ all religion! BC i think that's where yuh really want tuh go!
BTW, since atheism cause sooooo much death and destruction on the planet, why yuh doh follow yuh own advice and leave that forkin philosophy ah forkinlone!!!!!! openhiemer and all those other eastern communist scientist were atheist, and yuh see the kinda forkup ting they make tuh kill ppl, things that would make ah priest givin ah blow job to ah kid seem like nursery rhymes.
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
aye Just Cool
you is kicks man :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
good discussion indeed
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
Man STOP trying to get me to join up with your little group "The Walmart Boys"
you ent see I BLOCK you from sending me PM's since a few weeks after coming on this forum
Ya doh give up
what happen??? ya tiring of the current crop of "Walmart Boys" or what :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
Man STOP trying to get me to join up with your little group "The Walmart Boys"
you ent see I stop you from sending me PM's or what
Yuh eh notice that everyone does call you a little bitch? Try and figure that out nah...jes a little try and yuh should figure it out.
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
Man STOP trying to get me to join up with your little group "The Walmart Boys"
you ent see I stop you from sending me PM's or what
Yuh eh notice that everyone does call you a little bitch? Try and figure that out nah...jes a little try and yuh should figure it out.
Blah balh balh balh balh
all ya little Walmart Boys does be so happy when ever you does
Cuss up peoiple on here
especially the women
Then ya does THREATEN people
Question for all ah allya forumites......Can anyone on here imagine what it takes to get a Walmart Boy so mad with another person on a social networkin site that they feel compelled to THREATEN someone
AND the Walmart Boys go `Gee GEE GEE in their little worlds
You so ba you does put the Stink in Distinct
You so bad ya walmart boys does look up to you like you is ALTON from the Blind Side
Yoyu so bad ya just might make me LEAK ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Go along little Walmart Boy
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I does only cuss you, so yuh right I cussing women on here. I threaten no one...so go back to being the little bitch you are...ask all the women here and they will tell you that you are a BITCH!
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somebody, enlighten me. Who or what is The Walmart Boys?
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
2010 Superbowl commercial
All the give and take between you and JC looked like a lovers' spat. Made me remember the commercial.
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allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
2010 Superbowl commercial
All the give and take between you and JC looked like a lovers' spat. Made me remember the commercial.
yuh he remember a cage fighting match, a hockey game a boxing match, yuh remember a gay website?
Nah........!
-
somebody, enlighten me. Who or what is The Walmart Boys?
I have no idea either, AXE de BC buller...
-
allyuh beginning to repeat your selves
blah ..blah ...blah
Easter approaches so I suppose pelting stones is not out of context.
So you bring something new then! so wait, you think ppl on here tuh entertain you??!! weh yuh think, this iz access hollywood?
nah man. I tort it was This Site (http://mancrunch.com/) based on the exchanges between you and TC :devil:
How you know where to find a site like dat? Steups, to each their own, if you into gay dating sites, jes keep me out of it. Like you liming with WestCoast dese days?
2010 Superbowl commercial
All the give and take between you and JC looked like a lovers' spat. Made me remember the commercial.
yuh he remember a cage fighting match, a hockey game a boxing match, yuh remember a gay website?
Nah........!
lol
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AP
Vatican Accused of Coverup Play Video ABC News – Vatican Accused of Coverup
* Pope's letter disappoints victims Play Video Video:Pope's letter disappoints victims Reuters
* Vatican on Defensive Over Scandal Allegations Play Video Video:Vatican on Defensive Over Scandal Allegations ABC News
Members of the SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) , display a photo of Pope Benedict XVI when he was cardinal during a press conferen AP – Members of the SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) , display a photo of Pope Benedict …
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 8 mins ago
VATICAN CITY – Revelations that the Vatican halted the investigation of a Wisconsin priest accused of molesting some 200 deaf boys have eerie echoes in Italy, where 67 deaf men and women accused two dozen priests of raping and molesting children for years.
Only now — a year after the Italian case became public — is the Vatican directing the diocese to interview the victims to hear their testimony about the accusations, The Associated Press learned Thursday.
The two cases are the latest in a burgeoning abuse scandal on both sides of the Atlantic that now threatens to tarnish the papacy itself. The office charged with disciplining clergy was long led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, and a church prosecution in the Wisconsin case was stopped after an appeal to Ratzinger.
The Vatican strongly defended Benedict on Thursday and denounced what it said was a concerted campaign to smear him and his aides for a problem that Rome insists is not unique to the Catholic Church.
Benedict's actions have been marked by "transparency, firmness and severity in shedding light on the various cases of sexual abuse committed by priests and clergymen," the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said in a front-page article.
It lashed out at what it said was a "prevailing trend in the media" to ignore facts and spread an image of the Catholic Church "as if it were the only one responsible for sexual abuses — an image that does not correspond to reality."
The Vatican was responding to the release of documents, first reported by The New York Times, that showed how the pope's former office told a Wisconsin bishop to shut down a church trial against the Rev. Lawrence Murphy, a Milwaukee priest accused of molesting some 200 deaf boys from 1950 to 1975.
Murphy died in 1998, two years after Ratzinger first learned of the accusations, and more than 20 years after they came to the attention of the Milwaukee diocese.
While the Vatican has not directly addressed the Italian abuse case, first reported as part of an AP investigation last September, it bears marked similarities to the allegations brought in Wisconsin.
Both involve some of society's most vulnerable: deaf children for whom the admonition "never tell" is easy to enforce because they have difficulty communicating. And in both, the major priority of church officials grappling with how or whether to discipline accused predators appeared to be protecting the church from scandal.
In a signed statement last year, the 67 former pupils at a school for the deaf in Verona described sexual abuse, pedophilia and corporal punishment from the 1950s to the 1980s. They named 24 priests, brothers and lay religious men at the Antonio Provolo Institute for the Deaf.
While not all acknowledged being victims, 14 of the 67 wrote sworn statements and made videotapes, detailing abuse, some for years, at the hands of priests and brothers of the Congregation for the Company of Mary.
One victim, Alessandro Vantini, told the AP last year that priests sodomized him so relentlessly he came to feel "as if I were dead."
"How could I tell my papa that a priest had sex with me?" Vantini, 59, said through a sign-language interpreter. "You couldn't tell your parents because the priests would beat you."
The bishop of Verona, Monsignor Giuseppe Zenti, initially accused the former students of lying. However, after one of the accused lay religious men admitted to sexual relations with students, the bishop ordered an internal investigation. It found some abuse occurred, albeit a fraction of what had been alleged.
Advocates for the victims, however, said the diocese investigation was fatally flawed because no one interviewed the former students.
Last summer, the diocese forwarded its files to the Vatican office that prosecutes sex crimes by clergy, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It was headed for years by Ratzinger, who issued a 2001 directive that requires bishops to report suspected clerical abuse cases to the Vatican, but makes no mention of calling police.
The Vatican studied the file but took no action until Feb. 15, when Cardinal William Levada instructed Zenti to interview the former students to determine if any action should be taken against the priests, diocesan spokesman the Rev. Bruno Fasani told the AP.
In his letter to the Verona church authorities, Levada said Ratzinger's old office, which he now heads, had reviewed the files about the alleged abuse and "considers it opportune to proceed" with interviews of the former students.
Fasani said the diocese maintained that it did not interview the alleged victims because they never made a formal complaint to the bishop. The diocese also said it didn't know how to contact them, even though they are all members of a Verona deaf association with ties to the church-run school.
Marco Lodi Rizzini, a spokesman for the accusers, scoffed at the suggestion that the diocese didn't know how to reach the former students. He said he spoke with Zenti twice about the accusations and sent the victims' testimonies about the abuse to the diocese last year.
He said the former students were more than happy to speak to investigators. "Better late than never."
Fasani said the diocese was now forming a team to conduct the interviews after receiving instructions from Levada.
"This is a shameful thing. We never received a formal complaint," he insisted. "It was never formally presented to us."
Vantini and other alleged Verona victims are due to appear on state-run RAI television on Friday to tell their stories.
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AP
Vatican Accused of Coverup Play Video ABC News – Vatican Accused of Coverup
* Pope's letter disappoints victims Play Video Video:Pope's letter disappoints victims Reuters
* Vatican on Defensive Over Scandal Allegations Play Video Video:Vatican on Defensive Over Scandal Allegations ABC News
Members of the SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) , display a photo of Pope Benedict XVI when he was cardinal during a press conferen AP – Members of the SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) , display a photo of Pope Benedict …
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – 8 mins ago
this is 4king sick. they running a pedophile network owa? ah hear christopher hitchens calling for them to arrest the pope. the catholic church is INCAPABLE of policing itself - is high time to brings these sick hypocrites to heel. they shoulda round all of them up and their unquestioning supporters and burn them all like they do in rwanda.
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The Pope at Palm Sunday Mass in Vatican City
The Pope is under pressure over abuse allegations in the Catholic Church
The Pope has spoken of the need not to be intimidated by critics, in a veiled reference to anger at the Catholic Church over past sex abuse scandals.
At a mass in Rome's St Peter's Square, he said his faith would help give him the courage to deflect "petty gossip".
The Pope has been accused of failing to act over the case of a US priest alleged to have abused 200 deaf boys.
But the Archbishop of Westminster defended the Pope, saying he had introduced rules to protect children.
'Swamp of sin'
At the Palm Sunday service, Pope Benedict, 82, did not directly mention the wider scandal - involving the abuse of children by priests in several countries.
But he told the tens of thousands of people gathered to hear him that God helped lead "towards the courage of not allowing oneself to be intimidated by the petty gossip of dominant opinion".
The buck stops with [the Pope] and he should resign
Activist Peter Tatchell
He also said man sometimes fell to the "lowest, vulgar levels" and sunk "into the swamp of sin and dishonesty".
The most senior Catholic in England and Wales, Archbishop of Westminster Vincent Nichols, said just one case of child abuse was enough to create "justifiable anger".
He said the "anger and dismay" over the alleged cover up by some Catholic clergy was "proper".
However he added allegations about the Pope's involvement were unfounded.
Vatican denial
He told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "He [the Pope] pushed forward for example a fast-track to defrock priests who have committed abuse. He changed the statute of limitations in Church law.
"He changed the law so that sexual offences committed with anyone under the age of 18 would be a crime in Church law."
The Pope has been accused of failing to act over complaints during the 1990s about a, Fr Lawrence Murphy, who was alleged to have abused some 200 deaf boys in Milwaukee.
A placard held by protesters at Westminster Cathedral
Protesters at Westminster Cathedral call for the Pope to step down
As head of the Vatican office dealing with sex abuses, the Pope - then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger - allegedly did not respond to letters about the case from a archbishop concerned about the abuse.
The Pope's intervention, following a plea by the priest concerned, is also said to have resulted in the halting of a church trial.
The Vatican newspaper denied this, calling the claims a "smear" attempt.
Meanwhile on Sunday, members of Westminster Cathedral's congregation clashed with placard-carrying protesters calling for the Pope to resign.
The Protest the Pope coalition said he should go because he failed to ensure priests who abused young people were reported to police.
Human rights campaigner, Peter Tatchell, alleged the pontiff ordered a cover-up in a 2001 edict to Catholic Bishops worldwide.
Mr Tatchell said: "The buck stops with him and he should resign."
The Pope has apologised to victims of abuse before and recently said sorry to them in a pastoral letter to Irish Catholics.
He said he acknowledged the sense of betrayal in the Church felt by victims and their families.
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You doh understand how it all works Cross .Sex with young boys is old ,from Michelangelo to other painters the cherub was one of the favs to paint .Stretching back to your pagan men when the Roman church took over from the Roman Gods .Is them old Romans help build the Roman church ,so you should like it cause it has nothing to do with God but the Devil .Is one of the greatest running jokes in hell .
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You doh understand how it all works Cross .Sex with young boys is old ,from Michelangelo to other painters the cherub was one of the favs to paint .Stretching back to your pagan men when the Roman church took over from the Roman Gods .Is them old Romans help build the Roman church ,so you should like it cause it has nothing to do with God but the Devil .Is one of the greatest running jokes in hell .
yuh damn right I doh know how it works! I doh bull boys, old or young.
Thansk for telling me though.
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No problem ,that why child abuse getting so rampant and not much is being done about it .aparently its ancient and a lot of law makers into it :-\. So I hear it so I sell it .
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March 31, 2010
As the faithful fill churches during Holy Week, a wave of clerical sex abuse revelations is sweeping Europe. The latest allegations come from Italy, just outside Vatican walls.
As the scandal mounts, Pope Benedict XVI is under increasing pressure to give a more forceful response to the most serious crisis of his papacy.
Following weeks of media coverage of sex abuse by priests in the United States, Ireland and Germany, three deaf men from Italy appeared on national TV last week.
Gianni Bisoli, 61, entered a Catholic institute for the deaf in Verona at age 9. He described how he was subjected to three years of sexual abuse. And he listed the abusers' first names — many of whom are still serving as priests.
Bisoli described how he was often taken to the home of the local bishop, who used him as a sexual toy. The network bleeped out the bishop's last name. A total of 67 former students of the same institute for the deaf had signed similar affidavits last year.
Their story was briefly in the news but was quickly swept under the rug.
Robert Mickens, Vatican correspondent for the British Catholic weekly The Tablet, says that was possible thanks to a long entrenched code of silence.
Opinions On Abuse In The Church
Should The Pope Stay? March 30, 2010
Should The Pope Step Down? March 30, 2010
"Up until now, the hierarchy in this country has been very powerful with the press, with the courts, in society in general," Mickens says. "They only had to flex their authority, and their friends would help this go away."
In the past decade, 80 Italian priests have been found guilty of sex abuse, but analysts think the real number is much higher and that the latest allegations might trigger more revelations.
The diocese of Bolzano, where other cases emerged this month, has set up a hot line to allow more victims to come forward. It's the first such initiative in Italy, where associations of victims of sex abuse by priests are just being formed.
Roberto Mirabile, president of an association that works on behalf of victims of pedophilia, says cases of sex abuse by priests are known to have occurred in at least 30 Italian towns.
But he acknowledges that victims hesitate to go public because they do not feel protected by civil authorities.
"Apologies are not sufficient," Mirabile said. "The church has to admit that the real problem is the code of silence and hypocrisy, not the individual pedophile priest." The problem "is the silence of those bishops who transferred priests to other parishes to save the church's reputation."
The Vatican has gone on the defensive. Its official daily newspaper accused the international media of waging a smear campaign against the pope.
During his Palm Sunday Mass, Benedict made no direct mention of the crisis but said cryptically that Jesus Christ guides the faithful "toward the courage that doesn't let us be intimidated by petty gossip."
Emboldened by the new European revelations of clerical sex abuse and scrutiny of Benedict's handling of past cases, lawsuits in Oregon and Kentucky are seeking to depose the pope and his closest aides. They want to show that U.S. bishops are employees of the Holy See and that the Vatican is therefore responsible for their failure to report abuse to civil authorities.
The plaintiffs' lawyers point to a 1962 Vatican document that describes how bishops should deal with abuse of minors by priests and how abusers can be forgiven.
Texas lawyer Daniel Shea first learned of the document when it was referred to in a letter written by the future Pope Benedict.
"We have obstruction of justice," Shea said. "This demonstrates with absolute certainty that the church considers the absolution of the priest who has abused a child, to be part of the course and scope of the bishop's employment. These are crimes against humanity."
Vatican lawyers plan to argue that Pope Benedict has immunity as a head of state. But lawyers of sex abuse victims from Germany to Australia have said they also will cite the Vatican documents in similar court cases in their countries.
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if they decide to throw the book at the Pope, will it be the Bible?
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Dead Marine's father ordered to pay protesters' legal costs
By Emanuella Grinberg, CNN
March 30, 2010 11:06 p.m. EDT
(CNN) -- The father of a Marine whose funeral was picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church says an order to pay the protesters' legal costs in a civil claim is nothing less than a "slap in the face."
"By the court making this decision, they're not only telling me that they're taking their side, but I have to pay them money to do this to more soldiers and their families," said Albert Snyder, whose son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, was killed in action in Iraq in 2006.
Members of the fundamentalist church based in Topeka, Kansas, appeared outside Snyder's funeral in 2006 in Westminster, Maryland, carrying signs reading "You're going to hell," "God hates you" and "Thank God for dead soldiers."
Among the teachings of the church, which was founded in 1955 by pastor Fred Phelps, is the belief that God is punishing the United States for "the sin of homosexuality" through events such as soldiers' deaths.
Margie Phelps, the daughter of Fred Phelps and the attorney representing the church in its appeals, also said the money that the church receives from Snyder will be used to finance demonstrations. But she also said that the order was a consequence of his decision to sue the church over the demonstration.
"Mr. Snyder and his attorneys have engaged the legal system; there are some rules to that legal engagement," said Phelps, a member of Westboro who says she has participated in more than 150 protests of military funerals.
"They wanted to shut down the picketing so now they're going to finance it," she said.
The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday ordered that Snyder pay more than $16,000 in costs requested by Westboro for copies of motions, briefs and appendices, according to court documents.
In a motion filed in October, Snyder's lawyer, who is representing him for free, asked the court to dismiss the bill of costs, or, alternatively, reduce the 50-cent fee per page or charge Snyder only for copies that were necessary to make their arguments on appeal.
"We objected based upon ability to pay and the fairness of the situation," Sean Summers said.
The mostly pro-forma ruling is the latest chapter in an ongoing legal saga that pits privacy rights of grieving families against the free speech rights of demonstrators, however disturbing and provocative their message.
Snyder's family sued the church and went to trial in 2007 alleging privacy invasion, intentional infliction of emotional distress and civil conspiracy. A jury awarded the family $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $8 million in punitive damages, which were reduced to $5 million.
Westboro in 2008 appealed the case to the 4th District, which reversed the judgments a year later, siding with the church's claims that its First Amendment rights had been violated.
"The protest was confined to a public area under supervision and regulation of local law enforcement and did not disrupt the church service," the circuit court opinion said. "Although reasonable people may disagree about the appropriateness of the Phelps' protest, this conduct simply does not satisfy the heavy burden required for the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress under Maryland law."
The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case to address issues of laws designed to protect the "sanctity and dignity of memorial and funeral services" as well as the privacy of family and friends of the deceased.
The justices will be asked to address how far states and private entities such as cemeteries and churches can go to justify picket-free zones and the use of "floating buffers" to silence or restrict speech or movements of demonstrators exercising their constitutional rights in a funeral setting.
Both Phelps and Snyder's attorney said they were surprised that the 4th District chose to weigh in on the issue of legal costs when they could have waited until after the Supreme Court hearing.
Phelps believes the ruling bodes well for her side.
"It is a good harbinger of the fact that the Supreme Court will remind this nation that you don't have mob rule. The fact that so many people hate these words does not mean you can silence or penalize them. That's supposed to be the great liberty that we congratulate ourselves on protecting in this nation. We strut all around the world forcing people to give all the liberties we supposedly have," she said.
Phelps anticipated that a Supreme Court ruling in the church's favor would be unpopular, but she said Westboro's members viewed the potential outcome in Biblical terms.
"When the Supreme Court unanimously upholds the 4th Circuit, it's going to put this country in a rage, and we will be expelled," she said. "But whenever it was time for an epic event in the Bible, the thing that happened right before is the prophets were removed from the land, and that's what's going to happen to us. ... We're going to sprint to the end of this race."
Snyder claims he is unable to pay any legal costs in the case and is attempting to raise funds on his son's site, http://www.matthewsnyder.org/. He is equally optimistic that he will prevail before the Supreme Court.
"The American people keep my spirits lifted a lot and give me hope. I think most of the country is on my side on this issue," he said. "Too many people have died to protect our rights and freedoms to have them degraded and spit upon like this church does."
CNN's Bill Mears contributed to this report.
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that christian group needs to be spayed and neutered... as a prior service man... I real pissed at that shyte >:(
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A woman who described herself as a former stripper in Miami has filed a petition for a restraining order against a South Florida priest, who she now claims fathered her baby.
The woman, Beatrice Hernandez, told CBS4 News that she was a dancer at a Miami strip club, Porky's. She said she met Father David Dueppen at that strip club and started a relationship shortly thereafter.
Early this year, Hernandez had a baby and demanded Dueppen take DNA paternity tests, according to court documents obtained by CBS4 News. But, in the restraining order petition, Hernandez said that after several attempts for a DNA test, "the [priest's] rage escalated as he attacked [Hernandez], grabbing her by the throat and choking her."
"I'm afraid. I'm on the street. I'm running from people," Hernandez told CBS4's Jim DeFede over the phone. "David said to me that if I go to the media, he would make me disappear and take my baby."
Dueppen last served as an associate priest at St. Maximilian Kolbe Church in Pembroke Pines. He has been on administrative leave for one month, according to Miami Archdiocese spokeswoman Mary Ross Agosta.
"It was a leave he requested. He is not assigned a parish right now," Agosta told CBS4 News. She said Dueppen asked for the leave "for personal reasons."
Agosta also confirmed that Dueppen was once the pastor at the same church in Miami Beach recently led by Father Alberto Cutié, the popular television personality who paparazzi cameras caught in an embrace with a woman on the beach.
Dueppen has also been in the news before. In 2006, The Miami Herald printed an article stating that a woman said she was abused in 2005 by Dueppen. It's unclear whether that woman is Hernandez, but the Archdiocese did confirm that a financial payment was made to Beatrice Hernandez in 2006.
"It was not hush money. There was a relationship that was an inappropriate relationship between Ms. Hernandez and Father Dueppen," said Agosta.
Asked if it was a sexual relationship, Agosta said: it was "a breach of a fiduciary relationship."
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He had concerns about removing Calif. cleric who molested children
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/2010/April/100408/100409-ratzinger-signature.hmedium.jpg)
Image: A detail of a 1985 letter obtained by the Associated Press signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
A 1985 letter signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then-head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, indicates he resisted defrocking a California priest who had a record of sexually molesting children.
By GILLIAN FLACCUS
updated 1:58 p.m. ET, Fri., April 9, 2010
LOS ANGELES - The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including "the good of the universal church," according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.
The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican's insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church's doctrinal watchdog office.
The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the Diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle.
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The Vatican confirmed Friday that it was Ratzinger's signature. "The press office doesn't believe it is necessary to respond to every single document taken out of context regarding particular legal situations," the Rev. Federico Lombardi said.
Another spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini, said the letter showed no attempt at a cover-up. "The then-Cardinal Ratzinger didn't cover up the case, but as the letter clearly shows, made clear the need to study the case with more attention, taking into account the good of all involved."
The diocese recommended removing Kiesle from the priesthood in 1981, the year Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican office that shared responsibility for disciplining abusive priests.
The case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins. It was two more years before Kiesle was removed.
For the good of the church
In the November 1985 letter, Ratzinger says the arguments for removing Kiesle are of "grave significance" but added that such actions required very careful review and more time. He also urged the bishop to provide Kiesle with "as much paternal care as possible" while awaiting the decision, according to a translation for AP by Professor Thomas Habinek, chairman of the University of Southern California Classics Department.
But the future pope also noted that any decision to defrock Kiesle must take into account the "good of the universal church" and the "detriment that granting the dispensation can provoke within the community of Christ's faithful, particularly considering the young age." Kiesle was 38 at the time.
(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/2010/April/100408/100409-kiesle-vmed-1115a.standard.jpg)
Image: Stephen Kiesle
AP
This 2002 photo shows former priest Stephen Kiesle, who had a record of sexually molesting children.
Kiesle had been sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory.
As his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him.
In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers.
"It is my conviction that there would be no scandal if this petition were granted and that as a matter of fact, given the nature of the case, there might be greater scandal to the community if Father Kiesle were allowed to return to the active ministry," Cummins wrote in 1982.
While papers obtained by the AP include only one letter with Ratzinger's signature, correspondence and internal memos from the diocese refer to a letter dated Nov. 17, 1981, from the then-cardinal to the bishop. Ratzinger was appointed to head the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith a week later.
Fear of scandal
California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case. At one point, a Vatican official wrote to say the file may have been lost and suggested resubmitting materials.
Diocese officials considered writing Ratzinger again after they received his 1985 response to impress upon him that leaving Kiesle in the ministry would harm the church, Rev. George Mockel wrote in a memo to the Oakland bishop.
"My own reading of this letter is that basically they are going to sit on it until Steve gets quite a bit older," the memo said. "Despite his young age, the particular and unique circumstances of this case would seem to make it a greater scandal if he were not laicized."
Irwin Zalkin, an attorney representing some of the victims, said he was familiar with the correspondence but wouldn't provide documents to AP.
"Cardinal Ratzinger was more concerned about the avoidance of scandal than he was about protecting children," Zalkin said in a phone interview. "That was a central theme."
As Kiesle's fate was being weighed in Rome, the priest returned to suburban Pinole to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, where he had served as associate pastor from 1972 to 1975.
Kiesle was ultimately stripped of his priestly powers in 1987, though the documents do not indicate when, how or why. They also don't indicate what role — if any — Ratzinger had in the decision.
Kiesle continued to volunteer with children, according to Maurine Behrend, who worked in the Oakland diocese's youth ministry office in the 1980s. After learning of his history, Behrend complained to church officials. When nothing was done she wrote a letter, which she showed to the AP.
"Obviously nothing has been done after EIGHT months of repeated notifications," she wrote. "How are we supposed to have confidence in the system when nothing is done? A simple phone call to the pastor from the bishop is all it would take."
She eventually confronted Cummins at a confirmation and Kiesle was gone a short time later, Behrend said.
Kiesle, who married after leaving the priesthood, was arrested and charged in 2002 with 13 counts of child molestation from the 1970s. All but two were thrown out after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a California law extending the statute of limitations.
He pleaded no contest in 2004 to a felony for molesting a young girl in his Truckee home in 1995 and was sentenced to six years in state prison.
Kiesle, now 63 and a registered sex offender, lives in a Walnut Creek gated community, according to his address listed on the Megan's Law sex registry. An AP reporter was turned away when attempting to reach him for comment.
William Gagen, an attorney who represented Kiesle in 2002, did not return a call for comment.
Pied Piper
More than a half-dozen victims reached a settlement in 2005 with the Oakland diocese alleging Kiesle had molested them as young children.
"He admitted molesting many children and bragged that he was the Pied Piper and said he tried to molest every child that sat on his lap," said Lewis VanBlois, an attorney for six Kiesle victims who interviewed the former priest in prison. "When asked how many children he had molested over the years, he said 'tons.'"
Cummins, 82 and now retired, initially told the AP he did not recall writing to Ratzinger about Kiesle, but he remembered when shown the letter with his signature on Friday. He said things had changed over the past quarter century.
"When he (Ratzinger) took over I think he was following what was the practice of the time, that Pope John Paul was slowing these things down. You didn't just walk out of the priesthood then," Cummins said.
"These things were slow and their idea of thoroughness was a little more than ours. We were in a situation that was hands-on, with personal reaction."
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Documents obtained by the AP last week revealed similar instances of Vatican stalling in cases involving two Arizona clergy.
In one case, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.
In the second, the bishop called Msgr. Robert Trupia a "major risk factor" in a letter to Ratzinger. There is no indication in those files that Ratzinger responded.
The Vatican has called the accusations "absolutely groundless" and said the facts were being misrepresented.
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Predator priests shuffled around globe
Victim: Transfer of abusive clerics was called ‘the geographical cure’
Image: Rev. Mario Pezzotti stands with Kayapo Indian children in Brazil
Bresciani Missionaries / AP
In this undated photo from a 2008 newsletter by the Bresciani missionaries, the Rev. Mario Pezzotti stands with Kayapo Indian children in Brazil. His was among 30 cases uncovered by the AP of priests accused of abuse who were transferred or moved abroad.
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - There he was, five decades later, the priest who had raped Joe Callander in Massachusetts. The photo in the Roman Catholic newsletter showed him with a smile across his wrinkled face, near-naked Amazon Indian children in his arms and at his feet.
The Rev. Mario Pezzotti was working with children and supervising other priests in Brazil.
It's not an isolated example.
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In an investigation spanning 21 countries across six continents, The Associated Press found 30 cases of priests accused of abuse who were transferred or moved abroad. Some escaped police investigations. Many had access to children in another country, and some abused again.
A priest who admitted to abuse in Los Angeles went to the Philippines, where U.S. church officials mailed him checks and advised him not to reveal their source. A priest in Canada was convicted of sexual abuse and then moved to France, where he was convicted of abuse again in 2005. Another priest was moved back and forth between Ireland and England, despite being diagnosed as a pederast, a man who commits sodomy with boys.
"The pattern is if a priest gets into trouble and it's close to becoming a scandal or if the law might get involved, they send them to the missions abroad," said Richard Sipe, a former Benedictine monk and critic of what he says is a practice of international transfers of accused and admitted priest child abusers. "Anything to avoid a scandal."
Church officials say that in some cases, the priests themselves moved to another country and the new parish might not have been aware of past allegations. In other cases, church officials said they did not believe the allegations, or that the priest had served his time and reformed.
'I overcame it'
Callander says he was 14 when he was raped three times and abused on other occasions in 1959 at the now-closed Xaverian Missionary Faith High School in Holliston, Mass. The Xaverians settled the case for $175,000 in 1993. At least two other accusations of sexual abuse were leveled against Pezzotti in the Boston area.
In the meantime, from 1970 to 2003, Pezzotti was in Brazil, where he worked with the Kayapo Indians.
In a handwritten note of apology to Callander in January 1993, Pezzotti said he had cured himself in the jungle.
"I asked to leave Holliston and go to Brazil to change my life and begin a new life. Upon arrival in Brazil, confiding in God's mercy, I owned up to the problem," Pezzotti wrote. "With divine help, I overcame it."
There is no evidence that Pezzotti, now 75, abused children in Brazil, which has more Catholics than any other nation. Brazilian law enforcement officials said they were unaware of any complaints about him.
The Rev. Robert Maloney, provincial of the Xaverians who worked closely on Callander's settlement, said Pezzotti was allowed to stay in Brazil for another decade and work with children after a psychological evaluation. He added that a Xaverian investigation into Pezzotti and his work in Brazil turned up nothing.
After Pezzotti returned to Italy in 2003, "he was constantly being asked for by Brazil and by the people he worked with," Maloney added.
In 2008, Pezzotti returned to Brazil. A few months later, Callander saw the photos of him on the Internet and complained to the church. The priest was quickly sent back to Italy.
The Xaverian vicar general, Rev. Luigi Menegazzo, said Pezzotti works at Xaverian headquarters in Parma tending to sick and elderly priests. Asked if Pezzotti had any contact with children or public parish work, he said, "Absolutely in no way."
Reached by telephone, Pezzotti said only: "I don't see why I have to talk about it. Everything was resolved and I don't feel like talking."
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'Please Father, help us'
Father Vijay Vhaskr Godugunuru was forced to return to India and then was transferred to Italy after pleading no contest to assaulting a 15-year-old girl while visiting friends in Bonifay, Fla. He now ministers to a parish in a medieval town of about 4,000 in Tuscany, where he hears confessions, celebrates Mass and works with children.
The bishops supervising him said they were aware of the case but believed he was innocent.
"The evidence that has been given does not support the accusation," Monsignor Rodolfo Cetoloni, the bishop of the Montepulciano diocese, told the AP last week.
Cetoloni said he saw no reason for any restrictions. Godugunuru, now 40, "enjoys the esteem of everybody," he said.
Godugunuru had been charged with fondling a parishioner in her family's van on June 23, 2006. The priest, visiting from India's diocese of Cuddapah, had been allowed to assist at the Blessed Trinity Catholic Church in Bonifay.
The girl, now 19, told police in a sworn statement that Godugunuru "fondled her breasts and penetrated her vagina with his fingers." In his own interview with police, Godugunuru said the girl "had taken his hand and placed it between her legs." He denied intentionally touching her.
The priest was arrested the next month for lewd or lascivious battery on a minor. He faced up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine but in exchange for his no contest plea was required to return to India, undergo counseling, not supervise minors for a year and not return to the United States.
The girl's mother brought the case to the attention of Pope Benedict XVI.
"My family and others have been forced out of our church," she wrote in an Aug. 23, 2006, e-mail obtained by the AP. "Just when our faith and our faith in our church were tested most, our Priest chose the side of silence. ... To make matters worse, it was my daughter who was the one being attacked and he just sat back and watched. ...
"This is the biggest problem my family has ever dealt with," she continued. "Please Father, help us. Remember us in your prayers, especially for the speedy healing of my daughter."
The e-mail also said she had contacted the bishop of Cuddapah, the Most Rev. Doraboina Moses Prakasam, and asked if there had been any past accusations of sexual improprieties against Godugunuru. "I have not heard back from him and I don't expect to," she said.
The pope never answered.
Prakasam told the AP he was under the impression that Godugunuru had been absolved of the charges.
"What I was told by the people looking after that case was that he was cleared and ... he was allowed to come back to India," he said.
He said he told the Italian bishop of the case when Godugunuru moved to Tuscany.
The priest of San Lorenzo parish told the AP by phone last week that Godugunuru works as his deputy. He refused further comment, except to say that Godugunuru "does what all deputy parish priests do" and "helps the parish priest."
Godugunuru declined to be interviewed by the AP.
Claiming propaganda
Clodoveo Piazza is an Italian Jesuit who ran a homeless shelter for street children and worked in Brazil for 30 years. In 2005, he was awarded $600,000 from Brazil's national development bank to set up four facilities in the northeastern city of Salvador.
Last August, prosecutors said at least eight boys and young men had come forward to say either that they were abused by Piazza or that he allowed visiting foreigners to sexually abuse boys. Brazilian police are seeking his arrest.
Piazza now works in Mozambique, according to the Catholic nonprofit Organizzazione di Aiuto Fraterno, and the church has come to his defense.
"The Italian Jesuits express their solidarity with the brother and father Piazza," reads one note on the religious order's Web site. The nonprofit adds that "the slander against missionaries is becoming an increasingly popular game."
Brazilian prosecutors say Piazza, a naturalized Brazilian, has refused to respond to the charges of sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of children.
Interviewed in Maputo, Mozambique, this week, Piazza said the charges were false and part of a campaign to blackmail him by "political circles" in Brazil that he did not identify. He said he had been acquitted of the charges twice in Brazil, and that there is no evidence against him.
A spokeswoman with Bahia state's Public Ministry said there were no records of Piazza ever being tried or acquitted and that the case against him is still open. She spoke on condition of anonymity, in keeping with department policy.
"This is propaganda in order to earn money," Piazza told the AP, saying people in Brazil had asked him for money, which he could not pay.
He said he has been living in a Jesuit residence in Maputo for about seven months. He said he was working with Italy's Turino University on "economic projects" and was not working with children.
Joseph was a 26-year-old student at St. John Provincial Seminary in Detroit, Mich., in 1988 when he was convicted of sexual misconduct with a 15-year-old boy. He was given three years' probation and dismissed from his seminary.
Two decades later, he lives in the Philippines, where he was ordained a priest and now serves as parochial vicar of the St. Vincent Ferrer parish in the remote town of Calape, according to the diocese directory. He is also a popular gospel singer in the heavily Catholic country.
Reached on his cell phone, Skelton declined comment.
He finished his seminary studies in Manila, the capital, and was ordained in 2001 in the diocese of Tagbilaran in Bohol province.
The bishop who ordained Skelton said he wouldn't have made him a priest if he had known about the criminal conviction.
"I ordained him because, while there was some talk about his effeminate ways, there was no case against him," Bishop Leopoldo S. Tumulak said.
Tumulak, who has since stepped down, said it would be up to his successor to reopen the case.
"The priest is trying to live well," Tumulak said. "If he has really changed, the heart of the church is compassionate — although in America, Europe, they have different ways of looking at it. Not the church, but the government, the people. In the Philippines, it's a little bit different."
The archdiocese of Detroit, after learning Skelton had been ordained, sent a letter about his conviction to the Tagbilaran diocese in early 2003. Tumulak, the former bishop, said he doesn't remember if he received the letter, and in any case it would have been too late.
Informed of the case, current Bishop Leonardo Medroso said he would investigate. But he added:
"The case has been judged already. He was convicted and that means to say he has served already the conviction. So what obstacle can there be if he has already served his punishment or penalty?"
'Geograpical cure'
Transferring abusive priests was called "the geographical cure," according to Terry Carter, a New Zealand victim. Carter won $32,000 in compensation from the Society of Mary, which oversees the Catholic boarding school outside Wellington where he was abused by the Rev. Allan Woodcock.
Woodcock molested at least 11 boys at four church facilities in New Zealand before being sent by the church to Ireland. He was extradited to New Zealand in 2004, pleaded guilty to 21 sexual abuse charges involving 11 victims and was sentenced to seven years in jail. He was paroled in September 2009.
"They whipped him out of the country to Ireland," Carter said. "They took him out of New Zealand after years of offending in different locations."
Society of Mary spokeswoman Lyndsay Freer told the AP that some families of Woodcock's victims asked that he be sent offshore.
"He was sent to Ireland for intensive psychotherapy. He had no permission to exercise his ministry or to be involved with youth," she said.
Woodcock was suspended from his ministry in the New Zealand branch of the Society of Mary in 1987, according to Freer. He was removed from the priesthood in 2001, she said.
Freer noted that even 20 years ago, it was accepted belief that "pedophilia could be cured," often with intensive psychotherapy. "Pedophilia is now seen as recidivist," she said.
Woodcock is believed to be living in New Zealand's North Island coastal city of Wanganui. A woman who gave her name as Catherine Woodcock and described herself as "a relative" said she didn't think he would want to make any comment to the media. Asked why, she replied: "It is not appropriate at this stage."
Coming forward
Back in Windsor, Vermont, Callander lives a quiet life with Sandi, his wife of 35 years. It was only last week that he told his siblings about the abuse.
Callander says he is coming forward now because the Xaverians failed to keep their promise that Pezzotti would not be around children. He wants the church to change by defrocking or isolating priests who admit abuse so they cannot work in the same positions again — anywhere in the world.
"All I want is for the church to do what is right for once," Callander said. "To end the facade that a man like that should have the right to call himself a Catholic priest."
Rizzo reported from Rome. Also contributing to this story were AP writers Daniel Woolls in Spain, Fran d'Emilio and Nicole Winfield in Italy, Angela Charlton in France, Bob Barr in Ireland, Eliane Engeler in Switzerland, Veronika Oleksyn in Austria, Matt Sedensky in Miami, Gillian Flaccus and Raquel Dillon in Los Angeles, David Runk in Detroit, Sean Farrell in Montreal, Rob Gillies in Toronto, Bill Kaczor in Tallahassee, Fla., Pat Condon in Minneapolis, Emanuel Camillo in Mozambique, Alan Clendenning in Brazil, Ian James in Venezuela, Olga Rodriguez in Mexico, Vivian Sequera and Libardo Cardona in Colombia, Michael Warren in Argentina, Eva Vergara, Federico Quilodran and Brad Haynes in Chile, Ravi Nessman in India, Hrvoje Hranjski and Teresa Cerojano in the Phillippines, and Ray Lilley in New Zealand.
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NOW we talking GOOD Sense
Arresting the Pope might be the right thing to do
By Janet Bagnall, Montreal GazetteApril 22, 2010
News that two atheists -- British author and biologist Richard Dawkins and commentator Christopher Hitchens -- have asked lawyers to lay out grounds for the arrest of Pope Benedict XVI for complicity in covering up the sexual abuse of children has been greeted as a kind of low-minded folly.
It is anything but.
Strip away the religion and you have in the Roman Catholic Church an institution that allowed pedophiles unparalleled access to children and then, in too many cases, covered up their crimes. When they were uncovered as sexual predators, the church sent them to new parishes where they could strike again.
As this pattern of coverup has come under fire, the church has gone on the offensive, calling the abuse of children the fault of homosexuals, the ignominy heaped on the church the media's doing, and the insistence on justice a personal attack on the Pope.
It was only last week that the Vatican issued orders in plain language on the Internet, telling church authorities they are to refer cases of sexual assault or molestation of children to civil authorities.
This change comes after decades of the church trying to keep allegations of child sexual assault within the confines of the institution.
It's a change that comes too late. For too long the church has stood between men and women who were abused as children and their chance to hold their assailants to account and now many will never be able to exercise that right.
In Ireland, thousands of children were abused in Roman Catholic schools and orphanages from the 1930s to the 1990s, the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse reported last year. Commission chairperson Judge Sean Ryan said the church responded to evidence of sexual abuse by moving sex offenders elsewhere, the Daily Mail reported.
No prosecutions resulted from the report, the Daily Mail wrote, because the Christian Brothers who for the most part ran the institutions secured a ruling that guaranteed that its members would not be named.
But as the Associated Press reported last week, even priests who were criminally convicted were allowed to continue working with children. :o
Former Quebecer Denis Vadeboncoeur is one such priest, according to AP. Vadeboncoeur was sentenced in Quebec in 1985 to 20 months after pleading guilty to sodomizing teenage boys.
After he was released, Vadeboncoeur continued in the priesthood, in France. This week, Jacques Gaillot, a former bishop of Evreux in France, said in an interview with Le Parisien that he was sorry he agreed to a request by church officials in Quebec to take in Vadeboncoeur, a request the Quebecers are reported to have denied making.
It's hardly surprising no one wants to take responsibility for Vadeboncoeur: He was sentenced in France in 2005 to 12 years in prison for raping a number of minors between 1989 and 1992.
Most recently, the culture of coverup was brought home to the Pope himself.
The Associated Press and the New York Times reported that a letter signed in 1985 by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, as the Pope was then, shows that Ratzinger urged that the interests of the church be placed above those of two boys who had been tied up and sexually molested by a California priest, Stephen Kiesle.
According to the reports, then-Oakland bishop John Cummins wrote to the Vatican in 1981, urging the church to agree to Kiesle's request for laicization. Ratzinger replied that a decision to defrock Kiesle had to take into account "the good of the Universal Church."
Kiesle was left in the priesthood another six years.
The question Richard Dawkins wants answered is why the church has been allowed to "get away with it."
"Suppose," he wrote in the Guardian, "the British secretary of state for schools received, from a local education authority, a reliable report of a teacher tying up his pupils and raping them.
"Imagine that, instead of turning the matter over to the police, he had simply moved the offender from school to school, where he repeatedly raped other children."
In a world where the rights of children and the rule of law take precedence over the reputation of an institution, however steeped in other-worldliness, such behaviour is unimaginable, or should be.
If crimes have been committed, there must be an accounting. And if it takes the arrest of Benedict as the head of the church, so be it.
jbagnall@thegazette.canwest.com
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist
http://www.timescolonist.com/health/Arresting+Pope+might+right+thing/2937628/story.html
CHOP off ALL ah dem willywonkers....ALLL
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Arresting the Pope might be the right thing to do
By Janet Bagnall, Montreal GazetteApril 22, 2010
News that two atheists -- British author and biologist Richard Dawkins and commentator Christopher Hitchens -- have asked lawyers to lay out grounds for the arrest of Pope Benedict XVI for complicity in covering up the sexual abuse of children has been greeted as a kind of low-minded folly.
It is anything but.
Strip away the religion and you have in the Roman Catholic Church an institution that allowed pedophiles unparalleled access to children and then, in too many cases, covered up their crimes. When they were uncovered as sexual predators, the church sent them to new parishes where they could strike again.
As this pattern of coverup has come under fire, the church has gone on the offensive, calling the abuse of children the fault of homosexuals, the ignominy heaped on the church the media's doing, and the insistence on justice a personal attack on the Pope.
- it's too bad that of all people is dawkins and hitchens have to be suggesting this. but those religious types stick together.
- for the church, if worse comes to worst, the pope will take the hit, but the problem remains a systemic one. the church will always attract pedophile just like politics attract tief.
- the pope is a head of state and vatican city has its own sovereignty. even if a charge is forthcoming, the pope have a place to hide. that also means no public inquiry of the church itself.
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Arresting the Pope might be the right thing to do
By Janet Bagnall, Montreal GazetteApril 22, 2010
News that two atheists -- British author and biologist Richard Dawkins and commentator Christopher Hitchens -- have asked lawyers to lay out grounds for the arrest of Pope Benedict XVI for complicity in covering up the sexual abuse of children has been greeted as a kind of low-minded folly.
It is anything but.
Strip away the religion and you have in the Roman Catholic Church an institution that allowed pedophiles unparalleled access to children and then, in too many cases, covered up their crimes. When they were uncovered as sexual predators, the church sent them to new parishes where they could strike again.
As this pattern of coverup has come under fire, the church has gone on the offensive, calling the abuse of children the fault of homosexuals, the ignominy heaped on the church the media's doing, and the insistence on justice a personal attack on the Pope.
- it's too bad that of all people is dawkins and hitchens have to be suggesting this. but those religious types stick together.
- for the church, if worse comes to worst, the pope will take the hit, but the problem remains a systemic one. the church will always attract pedophile just like politics attract tief.
- the pope is a head of state and vatican city has its own sovereignty. even if a charge is forthcoming, the pope have a place to hide. that also means no public inquiry of the church itself.
Hear nuh
I completely forgot all ah that ya mention there
Oh well
Diplomatic Immunity in ya wire :devil:
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http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/05/1810373/uf-muslims-fear-koran-burning.html
UF Muslims fear Koran burning may spark violence
.A church's plans to observe 9/11 by burning Korans have students fearful of violence.
Photos
BY JAWEED KALEEM
jkaleem@MiamiHerald.com
GAINESVILLE -- Before she left her Miami home to return to the University of Florida this fall, Wajiha Akhtar's parents gave her some unusual advice: stay indoors as much as possible and, whatever happens, don't go near the Koran burners.
``I was fearful,'' says Akhtar, 24, a graduate student in epidemiology who says she never had any concerns as a Muslim here until recently. ``Will we get singled out?''
Far from Ground Zero, where debate over a proposed Islamic center is still roiling, a Gainesville church has aroused anger and tension among Florida's growing Muslim community and caught the world's attention -- from international headlines to rallies in Indonesia and India -- because of its pistol-toting pastor's plan to ignite a bonfire of Korans on 9/11 to protest what he calls a religion ``of the devil.''
Fearing violence, some Muslims are leaving town on the Sept. 11 weekend to avoid problems.
Last week in South Florida, 13 mosque leaders issued a call to the region's Muslims for nonviolence in anticipation of high emotions over the desecration of Islam's holy book. At UF, administrators have said they're afraid the protest at the small Dove World Outreach Center will mar the school's image, while international students and prospective foreign applicants have also expressed concern.
``Things have escalated,'' says Ismail ibn Ali, president of the university's Islam on Campus student organization, which serves about 600 Muslim students in this city with 1,500 Muslims, a population that's slowly grown over the last 30 years.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/09/05/1810373/uf-muslims-fear-koran-burning.html#ixzz0ylceDoL5
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Bishop Eddie Long Accused of Coercion
Posted By - Duffie Dixon
Posted By - Eve Chen
Last Updated On: 9/22/2010 7:15:20 AM
LITHONIA, GA -- Two men are accusing Bishop Eddie Long of exploiting his role as pastor of an Atlanta-area megachurch to coerce them into sexual relationships.
Maurice Robinson, 20, and Anthony Flagg, 21, had been members of Long's New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia.
They say they were only 17 and 18 when Long abused his spiritual authority to seduce them with cars, money, clothes, jewelry, international trips and access to celebrities.
Each filed a civil lawsuit Tuesday. Their attorney, B.J. Bernstein, held a press conference shortly afterward.
Bernstein described the young men's enrollment into the Longfellow Youth Academy where they ascended to the elite group of young men known as Bishop Longs "Spiritual Sons".
According to Robinson's written complaint "...Long typically engages in a private spiritual ceremony described as a 'covenant' between himself and each young Spiritual Son..."
"[Bishop Long] would use biblical stories to talk about how important it was to follow your leader and master and let them know that the acts they were engaging in did not mean they were homosexual," Bernstein said.
She added that Bishop Long told them he was simply "releasing his passion and his love."
Robinson and Flagg detailed numerous alleged incidents where Long engaged in sexual acts with them when he took them on trips across state lines and in a church owned apartment near New Birth.
In Flagg's case, when he turned 17 he was having trouble getting along with his mom. He says Long set him up in a house on Golod Way in Lithonia--known to church members as the "Golod House". He said that's where Long slowly developed a close relationship with him that led to numerous sexual acts.
Both Bishop Eddie Long's attorney and parishioners aren't convinced of the allegations.
"Bishop Eddie Long adamantly denies these allegations," Long's attorney Craig Gillen said in a statement.
"We find it unfortunate that these two young men chose to take this course of action," Gillen said. "We will be reviewing the complaints and will respond accordingly."
Bernstein acknowledged that at least one of her clients, Maurice Robinson, was arrested for breaking into New Birth Missionary Baptist Church June 13, 2010 and stealing property. She said Robinson was lashing out after he learned Bishop Long had other relationships with other "Spiritual Sons".
The lawsuits also name New Birth and the Longfellow Youth Academy as defendants because Bernstein believes some church members and employees were well aware of Long's alleged actions.
She said her clients are not making any on camera appearances until they can tell their stories in depositions and before a judge.
(The Associated Press contributed to this report.)
Source Here (http://www.11alive.com/rss/rss_story.aspx?storyid=155072)
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Fifteen-year search for pedophile Canadian priest ends — with him going free
Published On Sun Oct 03 2010
By Mary Ormsby Feature Writer
The bearded man stares steadily from Interpol’s “wanted” poster, his hooded winter parka unzipped, large tinted glasses shading his eyes. Canadian Eric Dejaeger was a code red fugitive, the international police organization’s highest alert.
Dejaeger’s offences were listed in capital letters: CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN.
What wasn’t listed was his profession: Roman Catholic priest.
The RCMP’s pursuit of Dejaeger, who left footprints in the Canadian Arctic, at Lourdes’ holy grotto and around a quiet Flemish Oblate house, was a fruitless 15-year hunt. The case appeared dormant. Then, on Sept. 13, the 63-year-old surrendered to Belgian police in the city of Leuven where he was interviewed — and, stunningly, released.
Belgian federal authorities said they could not begin extradition proceedings against Dejaeger — who in 1990 pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting eight children in the Northwest Territories, and who was later charged with assaults in Igloolik, Nunavut — because Canada’s Justice Department hadn’t filed a formal extradition request.
“Why? Why? Why? I just keep asking ‘Why?’” said Igloolik Mayor Lucassie Ivalu. He and others in the remote village of about 1,700 in the Northwest Passage, were unaware Dejaeger was living and working freely in Europe and that the outstanding charges had not been tried.
Source and more ... (http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/869928--fifteen-year-search-for-pedophile-canadian-priest-ends-with-him-going-free)
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what do you guys have against good christian catholics?
steups..ah forking tired ah allyuh agenda....is jes some littel boys....dey was not even white!
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what do you guys have against good christian catholics?
steups..ah forking tired ah allyuh agenda....is jes some littel boys....dey was not even white!
I guess he was just a little Inuit in to it.
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that was a groaner...lol
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http://news.yahoo.com/pa-monsignor-gets-3-6-years-sex-abuse-154117156.html
(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/VFf.iD5N98mhAsg3jKP6Ug--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTc2MTtjcj0xO2N3PTI2NDM7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTEyNztxPTg1O3c9MTkw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/6e547d37bbd64814160f6a7067002c87.jpg)
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — The first U.S. church official convicted of covering up sex-abuse claims against Roman Catholic priests was sentenced Tuesday to three to six years in prison by a judge who said he "enabled monsters in clerical garb ... to destroy the souls of children."
Monsignor William Lynn, the former secretary for clergy at the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, "helped many but also failed many" in his 36-year church career, Common Pleas Judge M. Teresa Sarmina said.
Lynn, who handled priest assignments and child sexual assault complaints from 1992 to 2004, was convicted last month of felony child endangerment for his oversight of now-defrocked priest Edward Avery. Avery is serving a 2½- to five-year sentence for sexually assaulting an altar boy in church in 1999.
"I did not intend any harm to come to (Avery's victim). The fact is, my best was not good enough to stop that harm," Lynn said. "I am a parish priest. I should have stayed (one)."
Lynn's lawyers had sought probation, arguing that few Pennsylvanians serve long prison terms for child endangerment and that their client shouldn't serve more time than abusers like Avery. They plan to appeal the landmark conviction and seek bail while the lengthy appeals process unfolds.
The judge said Lynn enabled "monsters in clerical garb ... to destroy the souls of children, to whom you turned a hard heart."
She believed he initially hoped to address the sex abuse problem and perhaps drafted a 1994 list of accused priests for that reason. But when Cardinal Anthony Bevilacqua instead had the list destroyed, Lynn chose to remain in the job and obey his bishop — by keeping quiet — as children suffered, she said.
"You knew full well what was right, Monsignor Lynn, but you chose wrong," Sarmina said.
The 61-year-old Lynn was acquitted last month of conspiracy and a second endangerment count involving a co-defendant, the Rev. James Brennan. The jury deadlocked on a 1996 abuse charge against Brennan, and prosecutors said Monday that they would retry him.
In 1992, a doctor told Lynn's office that Avery had abused him years earlier. Lynn met with the doctor and sent Avery for treatment — but the church-run facility diagnosed an alcohol problem, not a sexual disorder. Avery was returned to ministry and sent to live at the northeast Philadelphia parish where the altar boy was assaulted in 1999.
Prosecutors who spent a decade investigating sex abuse complaints kept in secret files at the archdiocese and issued two damning grand jury reports argue that Lynn and unindicted co-conspirators in the church hierarchy kept children in danger and the public in the dark.
"He locked away in a vault the names of pedophile priests. He locked in a vault the names of men that he knew had abused children. He now will be locked away for a fraction of the time he kept that secret vault," District Attorney Seth Williams said of Lynn.
Defense lawyers have long argued that the state's child endangerment statute, revised in 2007 to include those who supervise abusers, should not apply to Lynn since he left office in 2004. They also insist he did more than anyone at the archdiocese to meet with victims, get pedophile priests into treatment and send recommendations to the cardinal.
"He did the best he could under absolute awful circumstances," lawyer Thomas Bergstrom said after the hearing. "If he wanted to play the game, he wouldn't have met with them at all."
Lynn was the first U.S. church official convicted for his handling of abuse claims in the sex scandal that's rocked the Catholic church for more than a decade. But he might not be the last.
Bishop Robert Finn and the Kansas City diocese face a misdemeanor charge of failing to report suspected child sexual abuse. Both Finn and the diocese have pleaded not guilty and are set to go on trial next month.
"Protecting children has to be first and foremost," said Barbara Blaine, founder of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. "We're extremely grateful that the judge and the prosecutors did not give Monsignor Lynn special treatment because of his priestly status."
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Associated Press writer JoAnn Loviglio in Philadelphia contributed to this report.
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like TT fund this study lol :rotfl:
Study Finds People Who Believe In Heaven Commit More Crimes
http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2012/06/22/study-finds-people-who-believe-in-heaven-commit-more-crimes/
SEATTLE (CBS Seattle) — Believing if you are on a “highway to hell” could impact whether or not if you commit a crime.
A study published in the scientific journal PLoS One by University of Oregon’s Azim Shariff and University of Kansas’s Mijke Rhemtulla finds that people who believe in hell are less likely to commit a crime while people who believe in heaven more likely are to get in trouble with the law.
The two professors collected data for belief in hell, heaven and God from the World and European Values Surveys that were conducted between 1981 until 2007 with 143,197 participants based in 67 countries. They compared the data to the mean standardized crime rate in those countries based on homicides, robberies, rapes, kidnappings, assaults, thefts, auto thefts, drug crimes, burglaries and human trafficking.
“[R]ates of belief in heaven and hell had significant, unique, and opposing effects on crime rates,” Shariff and Rhemtulla found in the study. “Belief in hell predicted lower crime rates … whereas belief in heaven predicted higher crime rates.”
They also found that a recent social psychological experiment found that Christian participants who believe in a forgiving God gave themselves more money for the study.
“Participants in the punishing God and both human conditions overpaid themselves less than 50 cents more than what they deserved for their anagrams, and did not statistically differ from the neutral condition, those who wrote about a forgiving God overpaid themselves significantly more-nearly two dollars,” the study found.
Shariff and Rhemtulla believe that the study raises “important questions about the potential impact of religious beliefs on global crime.”
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What a seriously weird study. I would have thought that people who believe in Heaven also believe in hell?