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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tallman on August 18, 2011, 10:36:03 AM

Title: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Tallman on August 18, 2011, 10:36:03 AM
‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
By Reshma Ragoonath (T&T Guardian)

 
Mark Jackman, a CEPEP worker, was warned yesterday to restrict his hands to his female companion and leave all other women in society “alone” after he pleaded guilty to indecent assault. Jackman, 23, a father of one, admitted he touched a woman’s breast while they were waiting in line at an Automated Teller Machine (ATM) on Tuesday morning. Jackman was placed on a $5,000 bond to keep the peace for two years, in default he will return to court for sentence and conviction. San Fernando Second Court Magistrate Lisa Ramsumair-Hinds, in passing sentence on Jackman, advised him to “learn self-control in public and to respect a woman’s body.”

She advised him to restrict his actions to women whose “affection” he had earned and “as for the women in society who do not know you or care to know you, leave them alone.” The magistrate, while agreeing with defence lawyer Mewahlal Chatoor that Jackman’s act was on the lower end of spectrum in the criminal justice system, said: “it does not change the fact that it is offensive, highly offensive. “What troubles me most is it was not done in private. It was done in public. The woman was carrying about her business and was violated. I wonder what you could have done in private.” Chatoor had contended that what Jackman did was “simple touching” and no “great offence was intended. He is sorry. It was a mistake.”

He added that Jackman had learnt his lesson. The magistrate dismissed that statement. She said what Jackman did was a “violation of privacy,” since he touched the unsuspecting woman on a part of her body that was considered to be “very, very private.” Jackman was arrested by San Fernando City Woman Police Pierre. Police prosecutor Ramdath Phillip told the court around 5 am the victim was in the Republic Bank ATM on Mucurapo Street, San Fernando, when Jackman entered. He added: “He told the woman ‘family you looking nice’ and touched her on her right breast.” The woman left the ATM, it was stated, and made a report to Pierre who was on foot patrol at the time. Jackman was held a short distance away.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: sammy on August 18, 2011, 10:41:26 AM
so now he free to go around and interfere with other ppl  >:(
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: lefty on August 18, 2011, 11:13:27 AM
so now he free to go around and interfere with other ppl  >:(

 he didn't seem to "at least from d info given" invade the woman's personal space in a way dat was consider threatening to life and limb dais d only justification for dat light sentence.................but d fact of d matter remains dat he invaded she space non the less and at 23 it have plenty room for escalation on he part................six a one half a dozen ah d other
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 18, 2011, 12:05:21 PM
Family!! hahaha

Solider get real carried away and deserved to be punished but to do a jail sentence for this is kinda harsh in my opinion.  No disrespect to the victim but I'd be surprised if the sense of violation felt by the victim is commensurate with a jail sentence. Make him look the woman in her eye and apologize, do some community service and pay a fine and close the book...
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Bakes on August 18, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
Family!! hahaha

Solider get real carried away and deserved to be punished but to do a jail sentence for this is kinda harsh in my opinion.  No disrespect to the victim but I'd be surprised if the sense of violation felt by the victim is commensurate with a jail sentence. Make him look the woman in her eye and apologize, do some community service and pay a fine and close the book...

No jail for sexual assault?
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 18, 2011, 01:39:25 PM
No jail for sexual assault?

I suppose...It just hard to think of a man doing hard time behind bars for the degree of assault we dealin' wid here...


Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: pecan on August 18, 2011, 02:13:55 PM
No jail for sexual assault?

I suppose...It just hard to think of a man doing hard time behind bars for the degree of assault we dealin' wid here...




Did he get jail time?  What does this mean"

"Jackman was placed on a $5,000 bond to keep the peace for two years, in default he will return to court for sentence and conviction."

that doh sound like jail time to me. He get off easy.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Dutty on August 18, 2011, 02:25:20 PM
family yuh lookin nice??.....no wonder he hadda grab ppl daughter, wha woman go study dem kinda primary school talk
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 18, 2011, 02:33:53 PM
Did he get jail time?  What does this mean"

"Jackman was placed on a $5,000 bond to keep the peace for two years, in default he will return to court for sentence and conviction."

that doh sound like jail time to me. He get off easy.

I read another article where it says he could face up to 5 years in prison - that's why I equated "sentencing" with some kind of jail time...
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: TriniCana on August 18, 2011, 03:43:24 PM
$5,000 and community service for a sexual assault!
Since no penetration, no jail time.... hmmm okay judge!!

What about 5 lashes from a cat-o-nine your honor?
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: soccerman on August 18, 2011, 03:54:24 PM
Well that was a brave move on his part. So while standing in line at the ATM saddess just decide to grab family boobs just like that? That man had to be desperate and couldn't resist....Luckily he didn't get jail in he A$$.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Socapro on August 18, 2011, 06:07:24 PM
Travelling on the London underground the other day during rush hour (most train carriages were full!)

Some tall big boobs older black woman pushed herself into the train carriage I was in which only had a little standing room and pushed her boobs right into my face!

There was not much room & I was almost suffocating but I was too embarrassed to complain & say anything!!
Lucky thing I was coming off next stop or else I could have suffocated!!  :whew:

Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: TriniCana on August 18, 2011, 06:15:33 PM
Travelling on the London underground the other day during rush hour (most train carriages were full!)

Some tall big boobs older black woman pushed herself into the train carriage I was in which only had a little standing room and pushed her boobs right into my face!

There was not much room & I was almost suffocating but I was too embarrassed to complain & say anything!!
Lucky thing I was coming off next stop or else I could have suffocated!!  :whew:

Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Then is your fault!  Matter of life and death and you embarrass?  You ain't like yourself nuh!!  ;D
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Socapro on August 18, 2011, 06:26:27 PM
Travelling on the London underground the other day during rush hour (most train carriages were full!)

Some tall big boobs older black woman pushed herself into the train carriage I was in which only had a little standing room and pushed her boobs right into my face!

There was not much room & I was almost suffocating but I was too embarrassed to complain & say anything!!
Lucky thing I was coming off next stop or else I could have suffocated!!  :whew:

Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Then is your fault!  Matter of life and death and you embarrass?  You ain't like yourself nuh!!  ;D

I was coming off the next stop otherwise I probably would have said something!
Since she knew what she was doing but didn’t care, don't you feel that could be ranked as sexual assault?!  ;)
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Bakes on August 18, 2011, 06:26:36 PM
Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Sexual assault... in fact any assault has to be intentional (intent to touch in a manner that a reasonable person would find objectionable).  It would do people well to try and not belittle what is a serious offense.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: soccerman on August 18, 2011, 06:27:44 PM
Travelling on the London underground the other day during rush hour (most train carriages were full!)

Some tall big boobs older black woman pushed herself into the train carriage I was in which only had a little standing room and pushed her boobs right into my face!

There was not much room & I was almost suffocating but I was too embarrassed to complain & say anything!!
Lucky thing I was coming off next stop or else I could have suffocated!!  :whew:

Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Then is your fault!  Matter of life and death and you embarrass?  You ain't like yourself nuh!!  ;D

Doh study she nah...you shoulda go file ah police report :drool:
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Socapro on August 18, 2011, 06:34:47 PM
Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Sexual assault... in fact any assault has to be intentional (intent to touch in a manner that a reasonable person would find objectionable).  It would do people well to try and not belittle what is a serious offense.

Yes Bakes it was intentional, in that she knew what she was doing was wrong but she just did not care!!

Thanks for the advice! If it ever happens again then I will know what to do if I am not enjoying it!! :beermug:
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Brownsugar on August 19, 2011, 05:46:14 AM
I surprised to hear de woman eh buss ah slap in he arse!!.....if was me, we woulda have it out in dat ABM..... >:( >:(
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 19, 2011, 08:13:57 AM
Since no penetration, no jail time.... hmmm okay judge!!

That's not what I said or implied.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 19, 2011, 08:28:15 AM
What about all the sexual assault that takes place during carnival - nuff man tryin' tuh tief a wine from women they don't even know and pushin' up their mid section on their behinds normal normal...the worst dey getting is a stern look...Why do people accept that?...In many cases in which I've seen it, the response to it is a laugh...I guess if you're a tusty, sexually assaulting criminal, yuh have to pick your moments wisely...

I doh mean to belittle the crime in question here but it seems like sexual assault is a pretty broad umbrella with some offenses being less threatening or harmful than others - based on the article it seems like this one is on the lowest end of the scale (if there is a scale), and to think of a fella doing up to 5 years in jail (as I read elsewhere) for this I find it harsh- no disrepect to anyone. 
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Jumbie on August 19, 2011, 09:01:51 AM
shims.. I got 5 strokes from the principal for touching a girls luscious ass. Thing is I I didn't do it then. I take the licks, cry.. then went and really grab the girls ass. eh heh.. ms always had a sweeteye for meh after that.



btw Pro you is a buck? how that woman tot torts in yuh face fracomen so?



Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Bakes on August 19, 2011, 09:29:38 AM
Yes Bakes it was intentional, in that she knew what she was doing was wrong but she just did not care!!

Thanks for the advice! If it ever happens again then I will know what to do if I am not enjoying it!! :beermug:

A woman pushing her way onto a crowded train and her breasts happen to end up in your face is unlikely to be assault.  Unless it is your contention that she intentionally shoved her breasts in your face, which no reasonable person would read intent into that situation as you describe it.

What about all the sexual assault that takes place during carnival - nuff man tryin' tuh tief a wine from women they don't even know and pushin' up their mid section on their behinds normal normal...the worst dey getting is a stern look...Why do people accept that?...In many cases in which I've seen it, the response to it is a laugh...I guess if you're a tusty, sexually assaulting criminal, yuh have to pick your moments wisely...

I doh mean to belittle the crime in question here but it seems like sexual assault is a pretty broad umbrella with some offenses being less threatening or harmful than others - based on the article it seems like this one is on the lowest end of the scale (if there is a scale), and to think of a fella doing up to 5 years in jail (as I read elsewhere) for this I find it harsh- no disrepect to anyone. 

De Carnival scenes is a completely different circumstance... "implied consent" will be read into that situation, meaning that a woman knows what goes on on the road during Carnival, strangers will come up and try to thief ah wine.  By still going on de road for a jump she is impliedly consenting to strangers to come up and try to thief ah wine.  But that consent is limited, strangers are only allowed to come and try, they are not entitled to a wine, so if they push up and she rejects them they can't force themselves on her, or they risk being charged with assault.  If they touch her in a sexual way (and the statute would spell that out) then it's sexual assault.  The other limitation to the implied consent defense is that all you're allowed to do is try to thief a wine... you can't go grab she breast or crotch and then bawl "but yuh Honor... is CARNIVAL!"

As I said, the context is completely different... and if people want to argue that the lines between what kind of touching is allowable from what isn't... then the obvious answer is to not go around touching strangers (or anybody for that matter) in a manner that might be offensive... in other words, exercise some common sense.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 19, 2011, 10:03:42 AM

you can't go grab she breast or crotch and then bawl "but yuh Honor... is CARNIVAL!"


 :rotfl: :rotfl:  Hoss yuh kill meh wid this one lol

At the end of the day too, no matter how hard I try, I can't put myself in the shoes of the victim...so hard luck breast man, tek yuh jail...

...that aside I think we generally underestimate how annoying that tiefing a wine scene is for women....Alotta girls (that I know) do NOT like that and in fact do feel violated by strangers trying to rub their crotch up on their behind....the attitude that that's what is to be expected in Carnival and as such there is implied consent is definitely derived from a male perspective, and in itself is a belittling... 

End of day, boob toucher  hadda take whatever coming to him... (ah notice the characterization change tuh grabbing- which connotes a more violent or threatening act...Did he touch? or did he grab?....wateva)
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Dutty on August 19, 2011, 10:07:32 AM
btw Pro you is a buck? how that woman tot torts in yuh face fracomen so?


ent,, either dat is dais ah BIG gyirl....one yuh doh want to give too much talk...just enjoy de areola in yuh ears
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Bakes on August 19, 2011, 01:39:03 PM

you can't go grab she breast or crotch and then bawl "but yuh Honor... is CARNIVAL!"


 :rotfl: :rotfl:  Hoss yuh kill meh wid this one lol

At the end of the day too, no matter how hard I try, I can't put myself in the shoes of the victim...so hard luck breast man, tek yuh jail...

...that aside I think we generally underestimate how annoying that tiefing a wine scene is for women....Alotta girls (that I know) do NOT like that and in fact do feel violated by strangers trying to rub their crotch up on their behind....the attitude that that's what is to be expected in Carnival and as such there is implied consent is definitely derived from a male perspective, and in itself is a belittling... 

End of day, boob toucher  hadda take whatever coming to him... (ah notice the characterization change tuh grabbing- which connotes a more violent or threatening act...Did he touch? or did he grab?....wateva)

Not at all... to either point.  I don't think either you or I (since is we on the Carnival talk) underestimating how annoying it is... with my implied consent talk I'm not saying that women like it or should like it.  I'm saying it comes with the territory... no different from going to a club and getting hit on, you're free to decline the advances but yuh can't get vex at man fuh trying.  I think the vast majority of Trinis would agree that a woman would be unreasonable if she was to go on the road and EXPECT that nobody would approach her fuh ah wine. 

Note I didn't say she's unreasonable to not consent... unreasonable to not at least expect to be approached.  I don't think this is a male perspective, I think this is a Trini perspective.  Of course we could get into how that perspective has been shaped by a traditionally patriarchal society... but as it stands I think most men AND women would say "yeah, is ah Trini thing, if yuh go on de road some man bound to come up behind yuh."
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Touches on August 19, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
So what if it was a WOMAN who touch a man gorgon or eggs?

Would she get a $5000 charge

I mean is d same ting.

It is here the double stds and gender equality gap comes into play...or would they say the man is a macomehman for reporting it in the first place.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: STEUPS!! on August 19, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
So what if it was a WOMAN who touch a man gorgon or eggs?

Would she get a $5000 charge

I mean is d same ting.

It is here the double stds and gender equality gap comes into play...or would they say the man is a macomehman for reporting it in the first place.


Interesting point Touches. I was listening to the 96.7 with JW and Blaze a couple days ago and JW brought up that same point of the double standards

blaze and the majority of the callers (most them being male) said the breast grabber should have gotten some jail time but if the same occurred with them, most likely they would not even report the incident to the police.

the thing is the lady reported the incident and the sexual assault calls for jail time


but i believe the magistrate took into account the incident being his first offence (im guessing the first one reported by the victim) and the fact that the prisons are just crowded.

 if i put myself in the ladies shows i could only imagine how violated and afraid she was at the time of the assault and afterwards and what probably making it worse is how he get off easy easy

Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 19, 2011, 02:19:39 PM
So what if it was a WOMAN who touch a man gorgon or eggs?

Would she get a $5000 charge

I mean is d same ting.

It is here the double stds and gender equality gap comes into play...or would they say the man is a macomehman for reporting it in the first place.


I think it has to be viewed from the perspective of the victim.  If the victim feels threatened or violated then it should be the same regardless of the sex...Given the power dynamic that "naturally" exists between men and women, the average man doesn't feel threatened or violated by unwanted female advances - so while it's an interesting conversation theoretically, it's not really an apples to apples comparison in the real world.... that's kinda just how it is... 
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Dutty on August 19, 2011, 02:40:19 PM
the average man doesn't feel threatened or violated by unwanted female advances - so while it's an interesting conversation theoretically, it's not really an apples to apples comparison in the real world.... that's kinda just how it is... 
[/quote]

I could kinda see your point...but I fully disagree with with that...especially if the woman is your boss
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Bakes on August 19, 2011, 02:50:11 PM
So what if it was a WOMAN who touch a man gorgon or eggs?

Would she get a $5000 charge

I mean is d same ting.

It is here the double stds and gender equality gap comes into play...or would they say the man is a macomehman for reporting it in the first place.


I think it has to be viewed from the perspective of the victim.  If the victim feels threatened or violated then it should be the same regardless of the sex...Given the power dynamic that "naturally" exists between men and women, the average man doesn't feel threatened or violated by unwanted female advances - so while it's an interesting conversation theoretically, it's not really an apples to apples comparison in the real world.... that's kinda just how it is... 

I agree completely.  I think the only thing that might change would be pressure from society... yeah some might make him feel like ah maccomeh man, and some magistrate might be tempted to throw out the case.  Any judge worth their salt would uphold the charge though.  Note I diffrentiated between "magistrate" and "judge"... in TnT we tend to use them interchangeably, but they not one in the same.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kicker on August 19, 2011, 03:34:54 PM
I could kinda see your point...but I fully disagree with with that...especially if the woman is your boss

Yeah well superior-to-subordinate power dynamics in the work environment can present specialized scenarios of harrassment which defy the power dynamics that exist outside of the workplace...I agree with that.  I was more talking about dynamics which are independent of institutional hierarchy.  The same woman, if not your boss, would very likely not be threatening....



Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kaliman2006 on August 21, 2011, 10:15:42 AM
Well that was a brave move on his part. So while standing in line at the ATM saddess just decide to grab family boobs just like that? That man had to be desperate and couldn't resist....Luckily he didn't get jail in he A$$.

The sad thing is if de man approached her in the right way, he mighta get through eventually (assuming the woman is available).

Many of my female friends tell me that when guys that they are interested in do that, it becomes an instant turn off and kills whatever interest they had.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: kaliman2006 on August 21, 2011, 10:26:33 AM
Should I have gotten annoyed and reported that big boobs black woman to the railway police for sexual assault or should I have just tried to enjoy the ordeal and count my blessings!?  :-\

Sexual assault... in fact any assault has to be intentional (intent to touch in a manner that a reasonable person would find objectionable).  It would do people well to try and not belittle what is a serious offense.

Yes Bakes it was intentional, in that she knew what she was doing was wrong but she just did not care!!

Thanks for the advice! If it ever happens again then I will know what to do if I am not enjoying it!! :beermug:

Well you were there, so you know what happened. I could also give my own story. In my younger clubbing days (I still young eh, but I have long outgrown the club scene), some drunk  females grabbed my buttocks as I was going up to the dance floor with my friends.

It felt strange, but I did not feel violated because I did not feel physically threatened by these women. They were about a foot shorter and at fifty pounds lighter than me.

I agree with Kicker's point regarding the male-female power dynamic. In a situation where the male is the perpetrator, it is more traumatic for the female because there is the added element of physical intimidation involved.

With regards to Dutty, if the woman is your boss, then that changes things completely because the woman has the power to fire you.
Title: Re: ‘Breast-toucher’ on $5,000 bond
Post by: Touches on August 21, 2011, 08:42:55 PM
I think if the female is a ugly ting yuh ent like yuh will dig a horrors.

If is a bess ting the normal man would like deyself.

Now..if its a youth man and is a older woman...I could see the violation coming into play

Same way if is a boss employee relationship.

Now..hear this one...If the man Gay and he not on woman...and a woman touch him...den that is assault same way ent?