Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
Sports => Football => Topic started by: SWF Reporter on October 03, 2014, 02:00:00 AM
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Five T&T U-20s set for Europe; but Central braces for tug-of-war over Levi
By Lasana Liburd (Wired868.com)
Trinidad and Tobago national under-20 footballers Levi Garcia, Kadeem Corbin, Neveal Hackshaw, Jesus Perez and Kishun Seecharan were awarded European entry visas yesterday and are expected to travel to the Netherlands within the coming week en route to trials with undisclosed clubs in Europe.
The parent clubs for 18-year-old Corbin, 19-year-old Hackshaw and 19-year-old Perez agreed verbally to the valuation of the players by Dutch agent Humphry Nijman while 18-year-old Seecharan, who is registered with Defence Force, will be allowed to move on without a transfer fee.
But the football future of 16-year-old Garcia is less certain with Nijman and the teenager’s employer, Central FC, at loggerheads over a deal for the talented winger. Central has so refused Nijman’s offer for the teenaged “Soca Warrior” while the agent, for now, is not prepared to make a new one as the fight seems destined for the courts.
Garcia, who is a Form Five student at Shiva Boys Hindu College, has never represented Central in a competitive match and only joined the club in March on a two-year deal. The national under-20 player supposedly indicated his intention to quit school and turn professional with the “Couva Sharks” in July.
However, Garcia’s sparkling performances at the Under-20 Caribbean Cup tournament and an approach from Nijman and his local assistant, Dion Sosa, during the competition, changed his flight path considerably.
Sosa and Nijman were responsible for moving Sheldon Bateau, Robert Primus and the now deceased Akeem Adams to Europe where they settled at top flight clubs in Belgium, Kazakhstan and Hungary respectively.
Sosa told Wired868 their plan for the five players.
“They are going to meet with their agent (Njiman) who is based in Amsterdam,” said Sosa. “From there, they will branch off to various clubs for three week trials. We will be looking for an academy for Levi because he is under age (to turn pro as a foreigner in Europe); but we are looking at first team football for the rest.
“We are opening a door for them now and their lives can change. It can be good for them, their families and Trinidad football; because the environment they will be exposed to and the teams they will be training with they can only get better.”
However, Central FC managing director Brent Sancho, a 2006 World Cup player with Trinidad and Tobago, insists that the Sharks do not need help in developing their players or finding them foreign opportunities.
Sancho said that Central signed Yugoslav-born coach Zoran Vranes—to replace the departed Englishman Terry Fenwick—specifically because of his experience in working with youngsters. Vranes was head coach when the national under-20 team booked its place at the 2009 World Youth Cup, which was the last FIFA time that the two island republic qualified for a FIFA competition.
“One of the reasons we went for Vranes as our coach is because we saw we had good young talent coming through,” said Sancho, “and Vranes is renowned for not only developing young players but also playing them… But they are filling up the boy’s head with all kind of things.
“I have a trial lined up for Levi with Racing Genk (Belgium) and with Toronto (Canada). So it is not as if we are trying to hold him back… But the little boy doesn’t train with us anymore so obviously they turned his head and put his family against the club.”
Fellow Pro League clubs St Ann’s Rangers and North East Stars took a different view to Central with regards to Nijman’s offer.
Sancho claimed that Rangers accepted US$15,000 for Corbin, which was supposedly much less than the offer for Garcia. However, neither Rangers club chairman Fakoory nor Sosa confirmed that figure.
Fakoory told Wired868 that he did not want to stand in the way of his talented striker, who was named as the MVP of the Under-20 Caribbean Cup.
“They talked to me and made me an offer,” said Fakoory. “And since the under-20 tournament, Kadeem hasn’t showed up at practice once. So what could I do?
“Yes, I came to an agreement to send him on a trial. I had no choice but to let him go for the betterment of the club and to give him an opportunity to further himself.”
Stars coach Angus Eve was reluctant to say much on his club’s deal with Nijman, which will see Hackshaw and Perez move to Europe for trials.
“I just want the boys to get an opportunity,” Eve told Wired868. “I had experience dealing with these agents before with (Sheldon) Bateau while I was at Jabloteh, so I knew what to expect.”
But Sancho insisted that Central would not budge and he accused Nijman of underhand tactics and a contradictory approach to FIFA’s current efforts to outlaw third party ownership.
Sancho said that he is happy for Nijman to take Garcia on trial and be paid for his work in negotiating personal terms. However, he is adamant that the matter of a transfer fee must only be discussed between the buying and selling clubs while he also insisted a sell-on clause would be inserted into any agreed deal.
“I find it strange that the agents are trying to buy-out the player and I am not indulging in that kind of practice of selling a player to an agent,” said Sancho. “Their problem is that, whatever deal is happening, we want a sell-on clause just like there was for Kenwyne Jones and Khaleem Hyland and the agent said he is not doing it. They want everything for themselves.”
His stance was supported by DIRECTV W Connection president David John Williams, who pocketed well over $1 million when Kenwyne Jones moved from Southampton to Premiership club Sunderland due to a sell-on clause.
“If the player is under contract, why do you want to buy out the contract to move them?” asked Williams. “So the (Pro League) club doesn’t make any money? When they buy out the contract, they get a big signing-on bonus and they make the money or get their own clauses in the deal.”
But Sosa called Sancho’s demand ridiculous, particularly as Garcia never played a game for Central and spent less than three months training at the club
“Why should a (European) club pay, house, develop and take care of Levi and, three years down the line, be forced to give Central money for doing absolutely nothing?” asked Sosa. “That is unfair to the (new) club because they are taking all the risk… Why should (Central) get 10 percent for a player they never developed in the first place?
“We made them an offer that is way beyond the player’s market value. But Central’s demands were not reasonable and we have decided not to give into those demands.”
Sosa warned that Central could lose Garcia for nothing as the agents are set to challenge the validity of its contract with the player. Garcia’s elder brother, Daniel, accompanied the young man when he signed his professional contract with Central and not his parents.
In a previous interview with the TTFA Media, Garcia credited his brother, Daniel, for being a key motivator in his career
“He’s always there for me,” said Garcia. “If I have to go training or to a game he will get the taxi or rent a car for me to get there. He pushes me all the time to do better.”
But Sosa is certain that Daniel is no position to sign as his younger brother’s guardian.
“It is an agreement which was entered into without the consent of his parent and that by itself is illegal,” said Sosa. “No minor anywhere in the free world can enter into a contract without the written consent of his parent; and neither his mother nor his father’s names are on the contract.
“They took Daniel and had him sign as a legal guardian when both (Levi’s) parents are alive. And then they want to turn around and play wrong and strong.”
Garcia’s mother, Judith Garcia, confirmed that she did not sign an agreement with Central.
“My big son, Daniel, signed it,” she said. “I do not want to get into any confusion… But I spoke to Brent Sancho and I told him that I want Levi to go to Europe.”
Central director of operations, Kevin Harrison, acknowledged that Garcia’s parents did not sign their son’s contract but explained why he felt the Sharks still had a claim on the boy’s future.
“(Levi) brought an adult to meet us who wasn’t a minor and who understood everything (about the contract),” said Harrison. “His parents sat in our office several times after that and they never said they didn’t want him to play with us. So if they are trying to say they didn’t give us permission they would be lying.
“In fact, everything was great until Humphrey showed up… I have already told (the parents) that no matter what he promises you, Levi isn’t going anywhere until we make an arrangement with that (buying) club.”
But Sosa believes Central’s attitude can only harm the player and is ultimately counter-productive.
“Between his parents and ourselves, we are trying to sort it out in a cordial manner,” he said. “And, if not, we will do what we have to. Levi does not want to play with Central.
“These boys—all five of them—are going to a first class, professional environment for the first time, which can only help their development.”
Garcia’s present teammates at Shiva would be happy to win the Secondary Schools Football League (SSL) Premier title while his classmates are preparing themselves for CXC examinations next May.
Meanwhile, Garcia is enduring a tumultuous start to his life as a professional sportsman. It is not the sort of tug of war that most footballers are exposed to at the age of 16.
Almost certainly, Garcia’s impasse with Central has already cost him the chance of an international senior debut during next week’s Caribbean Cup qualifiers as head coach Stephen Hart was unimpressed by his decision to represent Shiva in the SSFL rather than Central in the Pro League.
Garcia will hope to make up for that in Europe; providing that Sancho and Nijman come to an agreement.
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... 18-year-old Seecharan, who is registered with Defence Force, will be allowed to move on without a transfer fee.
Why?
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Fire bun anything but a sell-on clause.
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Let me clarify Central F.C.'s position here.
We have been tracking both Levi and Nathanial Garcia for some time. They clearly are exceptional talents. This is what professional clubs are supposed to do: identify and develop young talent to enhance their squad and/or to move the players on to create income.
Levi signed a contract with Central F.C. His brother, Daniel, acted as his guardian and witnessed the contract. Daniel is well known in South football and is a responsible adult. We were happy that this was done with Levi's parents blessing. At no point in the last 6 months has Levi's parents in any way contested this contract. We have met with both parents on several occasions and had (until Mr Sosa became Levi's agent) a very cordial relationship. They have had several meetings in our office to discuss both Levi and Nathanial's careers.
Mr Sosa has stated: “It is an agreement which was entered into without the consent of his parent and that by itself is illegal,” said Sosa. “No minor anywhere in the free world can enter into a contract without the written consent of his parent; and neither his mother nor his father’s names are on the contract.
“They took Daniel and had him sign as a legal guardian when both (Levi’s) parents are alive. And then they want to turn around and play wrong and strong.”
This is clearly not the case. If Levi's parents were so against this, why were they happy for Nathanial to join us?
Meanwhile, Mr Sosa wants to sign these young players to a third party, a practice that is already frowned upon in world football and will be banned by FIFA in the next 3 - 4 years (see below)
Mr Sosa did attempt to negotiate to buy out Levi's contract. He offered US$40,000. I find this strange considering he believes the contract is illegal. We told him we would agree to sell Levi if he wishes to join a club overseas, but we would negotiate directly with the club, as is our right. Any international transfer has to have both clubs commitment and is completed via the FIFA TMS system. Our main financial interest, as with the recent sale of Rundell Winchester, is not an upfront fee, but a sell on clause. Worryingly, Mr Sosa said that European clubs won't agree to sell on fees, yet we had just agreed one!
Mr Sosa is a football agent and his role is to look after a player's interests. If the player is a free agent, he may approach clubs to arrange a deal. But he is well aware that a contracted player cannot be transferred without the permission of the club that holds his registration. That is the fact and everything else is just smoke and mirrors to make Central F.C. appear to be the bad guys. I am confident that Central F.C. will have the backing of TT Pro League, TTFA, CFU, CONCACAF & FIFA. Even if this case goes to a FIFA tribunal, Central F.C. will receive a fee. My concern in all of this is Levi. He will be dragged all over the place with this and it will be unsettling for him. I really hope it does not set his career back. Already we have seen him return to school football against the rules of his contract and this has also caused him a possible place in the Men's National Team squad (although I don't believe he would have made the final squad, I do believe Hart has Levi in his future plans). I cannot see how Mr Sosa can believe that a brute force snatch and grab approach can help Levi's career. The only reason I can see for this is $$$$ and plenty of them, which will be lost to T&T football.
Fifa has agreed to ban the third-party ownership (TPO) of players.
BBC Sport 26th September 2014
Already banned in Britain, TPO is common in Europe and South America, where investment companies take a stake in the economic rights of players.
Fifa president Sepp Blatter said there will be a "transitional period" before the ban comes into effect.
Manchester City's £32m purchase of Eliaquim Mangala from Porto was one of four major deals that went through in England this past summer involving TPO.
English clubs who wish to buy players co-owned by an investor and a team are already required to buy out the contract rights from all parties retaining a financial interest.
Fifa says TPO threatens the integrity of the sport and creates conflicts of interest.
Supporters of the practice argue it allows clubs to buy players they could not otherwise afford.
Fifa secretary general Jerome Valcke said a working group set up to implement the ban would decide how long the transitional period would be - which could be up to four years.
The working group will submit a proposal to the next Fifa executive committee meeting in December.
"The ban cannot be implemented immediately and we are discussing the number of transfer windows we have to wait for this ban to come in," Valcke said.
"It's a matter of whether we are talking about six transfer windows, meaning three years, or eight, meaning four years, this is what we will be discussing in this working group."
Fifa's decision comes after pressure from Uefa, who want to introduce new rules to clamp down on TPO from as early as next season.
Earlier this year Uefa's general secretary Gianni Infantino warned that they would take action on the issue if Fifa failed to act.
A decision to ban the practice could have far-reaching consequences for many leagues where TPO is rife and clubs rely heavily on outside investors to assist them in purchasing players.
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Let me clarify Central F.C.'s position here.
We have been tracking both Levi and Nathanial Garcia for some time. They clearly are exceptional talents. This is what professional clubs are supposed to do: identify and develop young talent to enhance their squad and/or to move the players on to create income.
Levi signed a contract with Central F.C. His brother, Daniel, acted as his guardian and witnessed the contract. Daniel is well known in South football and is a responsible adult. We were happy that this was done with Levi's parents blessing. At no point in the last 6 months has Levi's parents in any way contested this contract. We have met with both parents on several occasions and had (until Mr Sosa became Levi's agent) a very cordial relationship. They have had several meetings in our office to discuss both Levi and Nathanial's careers.
Mr Sosa has stated: “It is an agreement which was entered into without the consent of his parent and that by itself is illegal,” said Sosa. “No minor anywhere in the free world can enter into a contract without the written consent of his parent; and neither his mother nor his father’s names are on the contract.
“They took Daniel and had him sign as a legal guardian when both (Levi’s) parents are alive. And then they want to turn around and play wrong and strong.”
This is clearly not the case. If Levi's parents were so against this, why were they happy for Nathanial to join us?
Meanwhile, Mr Sosa wants to sign these young players to a third party, a practice that is already frowned upon in world football and will be banned by FIFA in the next 3 - 4 years (see below)
Mr Sosa did attempt to negotiate to buy out Levi's contract. He offered US$40,000. I find this strange considering he believes the contract is illegal. We told him we would agree to sell Levi if he wishes to join a club overseas, but we would negotiate directly with the club, as is our right. Any international transfer has to have both clubs commitment and is completed via the FIFA TMS system. Our main financial interest, as with the recent sale of Rundell Winchester, is not an upfront fee, but a sell on clause. Worryingly, Mr Sosa said that European clubs won't agree to sell on fees, yet we had just agreed one!
Mr Sosa is a football agent and his role is to look after a player's interests. If the player is a free agent, he may approach clubs to arrange a deal. But he is well aware that a contracted player cannot be transferred without the permission of the club that holds his registration. That is the fact and everything else is just smoke and mirrors to make Central F.C. appear to be the bad guys. I am confident that Central F.C. will have the backing of TT Pro League, TTFA, CFU, CONCACAF & FIFA.
Fifa has agreed to ban the third-party ownership (TPO) of players.
BBC Sport 26th September 2014
Already banned in Britain, TPO is common in Europe and South America, where investment companies take a stake in the economic rights of players.
Fifa president Sepp Blatter said there will be a "transitional period" before the ban comes into effect.
Manchester City's £32m purchase of Eliaquim Mangala from Porto was one of four major deals that went through in England this past summer involving TPO.
English clubs who wish to buy players co-owned by an investor and a team are already required to buy out the contract rights from all parties retaining a financial interest.
Fifa says TPO threatens the integrity of the sport and creates conflicts of interest.
Supporters of the practice argue it allows clubs to buy players they could not otherwise afford.
Fifa secretary general Jerome Valcke said a working group set up to implement the ban would decide how long the transitional period would be - which could be up to four years.
The working group will submit a proposal to the next Fifa executive committee meeting in December.
"The ban cannot be implemented immediately and we are discussing the number of transfer windows we have to wait for this ban to come in," Valcke said.
"It's a matter of whether we are talking about six transfer windows, meaning three years, or eight, meaning four years, this is what we will be discussing in this working group."
Fifa's decision comes after pressure from Uefa, who want to introduce new rules to clamp down on TPO from as early as next season.
Earlier this year Uefa's general secretary Gianni Infantino warned that they would take action on the issue if Fifa failed to act.
A decision to ban the practice could have far-reaching consequences for many leagues where TPO is rife and clubs rely heavily on outside investors to assist them in purchasing players.
Agreed.... Sosa is a smart man.
If I were in your position I would send Levi out on trials to clubs you have already lined up..such as Genk and TFC as Sancho said.
I also would suggest get on the phone with big Dennis and line up a trial with one of Everton, Swansea and Wigan where Dennis has alot of links and contacts. 2 weeks at each club. I am certain he can impress at least one and be part of their academy as he is of age. Insert a sell on clause and you are in business.
Most importantly it will prove to young players that Central FC can line up good trials and offers from some very good clubs..
Also this is a 16 year old kid, his head was turned. I hope nobody holds a grudge against him and his parents etc... he is under contract. He is at the perfect age to join a foreign club in their academy..Football is a BUSINESS now... watch the big picture.
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A bunch of money hungry f00ckers and dotish players.
Sancho is right, Central FC have the rights for Levi, they rightfully sign the player why is people going under their backs to thief players.
And Levi is a f00cking idiot for making man thieve he head, I know he wants to move on, and Sancho will not stand in his way, but things must be done right and he must be grateful to Central FC to, maybe a sell on clause might be good to.
Ungrateful mudda f00ckers.
The Under 20 team will suffer now.
They better becareful, because de same man they stepping on is de same man they might need one day.
I guess, de dog came back and bite Sancho too, for Winchester and Plaza. :rotfl:
Is who cock bigger in T&T.
One good thing about this is, we really seeing a decent bunch come along in a long time.
We need to find some good defence and goalkeeper now.
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On another note I am very happy for the other 4 ... Hope they enjoy it and can land contracts at decent clubs. The more players we have in Europe in a pro environment the better for T&T football but it has to be done well... I fully understand Central FC situation.
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... doh let Fakoory escape scrutiny.
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Very disappointed in Central FC here....perhaps they have some moral ground to stand on, but legally, one CANNOT sign a 16 year old to any contract without his parent/guardian's permission. "Daniel is well known in south football and is a responsible adult".....Really? Is that the basis under which the contract was signed?
I could be wrong, but I do sincerely believe that Central would have been better for the player for his development both as a player and as a person, but Central ought to have been more professional and legally aware than this.
I don't know Mr Sosa well enough to say whether or not he's a smart man. But unless some middle ground could be arrived at between the two parties, Central will not profit in any way.
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... doh let Fakoory escape scrutiny.
:beermug:
That man yes.. Rangers are a joke, they have no business plan..I am shocked they are operational.
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I could be wrong.
But you cannot sign a 16 year old player and school student to a professional contract.
Levi Garcia might be a free agent. Central FC cannot stop him, this will not hold up in court.
I just hope, both can benefit though, cause Central FC came forward and help out the youth and he should show some gratitude.
His brother is still with the club, he has to consider that Central came in when T&TEC folded.
On another note, we need to widen our scouting program, a lot of talent in South.
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Coach Stephen Hart has named his 20 man squad .....an interesting looking team ... check the squad list on de trini football federation site.!!
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In good faith i do hope all the parties involved will reach an amicable solution as it can only be of benefit to all ....... i do believe central f.c has its players interest at heart .. !!
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I could be wrong.
But you cannot sign a 16 year old player and school student to a professional contract.
Levi Garcia might be a free agent. Central FC cannot stop him, this will not hold up in court.
I just hope, both can benefit though, cause Central FC came forward and help out the youth and he should show some gratitude.
His brother is still with the club, he has to consider that Central came in when T&TEC folded.
On another note, we need to widen our scouting program, a lot of talent in South.
So all these academies around the world who spending thousands of $ on kids just winging it and hoping players stay faithful when they get good?
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Very disappointed in Central FC here....perhaps they have some moral ground to stand on, but legally, one CANNOT sign a 16 year old to any contract without his parent/guardian's permission. "Daniel is well known in south football and is a responsible adult".....Really? Is that the basis under which the contract was signed?
I could be wrong, but I do sincerely believe that Central would have been better for the player for his development both as a player and as a person, but Central ought to have been more professional and legally aware than this.
I don't know Mr Sosa well enough to say whether or not he's a smart man. But unless some middle ground could be arrived at between the two parties, Central will not profit in any way.
Actually, a 16 year old can be signed to a professional contract providing you also obtain the signature of a parent or guardian. Daniel was designated by his parents because they felt that he would understand the contract better. A club cannot tell a parent that their chosen family member cannot represent the player. Also, if they were unhappy, they had since March to raise any objections. Don't hurt yuh head, Central will not lose out!
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... 18-year-old Seecharan, who is registered with Defence Force, will be allowed to move on without a transfer fee.
Why?
Probably because of the particular situation that is Defense Force... a public/quasi-public entity and not a true professional, for profit organization.
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Let me clarify Central F.C.'s position here.
We have been tracking both Levi and Nathanial Garcia for some time. They clearly are exceptional talents. This is what professional clubs are supposed to do: identify and develop young talent to enhance their squad and/or to move the players on to create income.
Levi signed a contract with Central F.C. His brother, Daniel, acted as his guardian and witnessed the contract. Daniel is well known in South football and is a responsible adult. We were happy that this was done with Levi's parents blessing. At no point in the last 6 months has Levi's parents in any way contested this contract. We have met with both parents on several occasions and had (until Mr Sosa became Levi's agent) a very cordial relationship. They have had several meetings in our office to discuss both Levi and Nathanial's careers.
Mr Sosa has stated: “It is an agreement which was entered into without the consent of his parent and that by itself is illegal,” said Sosa. “No minor anywhere in the free world can enter into a contract without the written consent of his parent; and neither his mother nor his father’s names are on the contract.
“They took Daniel and had him sign as a legal guardian when both (Levi’s) parents are alive. And then they want to turn around and play wrong and strong.”
This is clearly not the case. If Levi's parents were so against this, why were they happy for Nathanial to join us?
Meanwhile, Mr Sosa wants to sign these young players to a third party, a practice that is already frowned upon in world football and will be banned by FIFA in the next 3 - 4 years (see below)
Mr Sosa did attempt to negotiate to buy out Levi's contract. He offered US$40,000. I find this strange considering he believes the contract is illegal. We told him we would agree to sell Levi if he wishes to join a club overseas, but we would negotiate directly with the club, as is our right. Any international transfer has to have both clubs commitment and is completed via the FIFA TMS system. Our main financial interest, as with the recent sale of Rundell Winchester, is not an upfront fee, but a sell on clause. Worryingly, Mr Sosa said that European clubs won't agree to sell on fees, yet we had just agreed one!
Mr Sosa is a football agent and his role is to look after a player's interests. If the player is a free agent, he may approach clubs to arrange a deal. But he is well aware that a contracted player cannot be transferred without the permission of the club that holds his registration. That is the fact and everything else is just smoke and mirrors to make Central F.C. appear to be the bad guys. I am confident that Central F.C. will have the backing of TT Pro League, TTFA, CFU, CONCACAF & FIFA. Even if this case goes to a FIFA tribunal, Central F.C. will receive a fee. My concern in all of this is Levi. He will be dragged all over the place with this and it will be unsettling for him. I really hope it does not set his career back. Already we have seen him return to school football against the rules of his contract and this has also caused him a possible place in the Men's National Team squad (although I don't believe he would have made the final squad, I do believe Hart has Levi in his future plans). I cannot see how Mr Sosa can believe that a brute force snatch and grab approach can help Levi's career. The only reason I can see for this is $$$$ and plenty of them, which will be lost to T&T football.
Truth is often stranger than fiction. I don't know who Central has advising them on their legal dealings, but Sosa is entirely correct. Daniel cannot "act" as Guardian for Levi, not when his natural parents are still alive and possessing the capacity to fulfill their responsibilities to him. I don't know, as Sosa alleges, that Central went and "get" Daniel to sign stuff, but the first question Central should have asked is "where are his parents" and why aren't they here to sign for Levi. Your concern in all of this might be Levi, but clearly he's not Central's concern... otherwise Central wouldn't be holding out for more money. How does that benefit Levi? Right, it only benefits Central F.C. I can't say that I disagree with Central's stance, but I can tell you that I don't see how your organization would have any legs to stand on. The contract isn't illegal, it is per se invalid and Central will rue having rejected the $40,000 USD offer.
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... 18-year-old Seecharan, who is registered with Defence Force, will be allowed to move on without a transfer fee.
Why?
Probably because of the particular situation that is Defense Force... a public/quasi-public entity and not a true professional, for profit organization.
My longstanding view is that DF should reap from the seeds they've sown ...
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Let me clarify Central F.C.'s position here.
We have been tracking both Levi and Nathanial Garcia for some time. They clearly are exceptional talents. This is what professional clubs are supposed to do: identify and develop young talent to enhance their squad and/or to move the players on to create income.
Levi signed a contract with Central F.C. His brother, Daniel, acted as his guardian and witnessed the contract. Daniel is well known in South football and is a responsible adult. We were happy that this was done with Levi's parents blessing. At no point in the last 6 months has Levi's parents in any way contested this contract. We have met with both parents on several occasions and had (until Mr Sosa became Levi's agent) a very cordial relationship. They have had several meetings in our office to discuss both Levi and Nathanial's careers.
Mr Sosa has stated: “It is an agreement which was entered into without the consent of his parent and that by itself is illegal,” said Sosa. “No minor anywhere in the free world can enter into a contract without the written consent of his parent; and neither his mother nor his father’s names are on the contract.
“They took Daniel and had him sign as a legal guardian when both (Levi’s) parents are alive. And then they want to turn around and play wrong and strong.”
This is clearly not the case. If Levi's parents were so against this, why were they happy for Nathanial to join us?
Meanwhile, Mr Sosa wants to sign these young players to a third party, a practice that is already frowned upon in world football and will be banned by FIFA in the next 3 - 4 years (see below)
Mr Sosa did attempt to negotiate to buy out Levi's contract. He offered US$40,000. I find this strange considering he believes the contract is illegal. We told him we would agree to sell Levi if he wishes to join a club overseas, but we would negotiate directly with the club, as is our right. Any international transfer has to have both clubs commitment and is completed via the FIFA TMS system. Our main financial interest, as with the recent sale of Rundell Winchester, is not an upfront fee, but a sell on clause. Worryingly, Mr Sosa said that European clubs won't agree to sell on fees, yet we had just agreed one!
Mr Sosa is a football agent and his role is to look after a player's interests. If the player is a free agent, he may approach clubs to arrange a deal. But he is well aware that a contracted player cannot be transferred without the permission of the club that holds his registration. That is the fact and everything else is just smoke and mirrors to make Central F.C. appear to be the bad guys. I am confident that Central F.C. will have the backing of TT Pro League, TTFA, CFU, CONCACAF & FIFA. Even if this case goes to a FIFA tribunal, Central F.C. will receive a fee. My concern in all of this is Levi. He will be dragged all over the place with this and it will be unsettling for him. I really hope it does not set his career back. Already we have seen him return to school football against the rules of his contract and this has also caused him a possible place in the Men's National Team squad (although I don't believe he would have made the final squad, I do believe Hart has Levi in his future plans). I cannot see how Mr Sosa can believe that a brute force snatch and grab approach can help Levi's career. The only reason I can see for this is $$$$ and plenty of them, which will be lost to T&T football.
Truth is often stranger than fiction. I don't know who Central has advising them on their legal dealings, but Sosa is entirely correct. Daniel cannot "act" as Guardian for Levi, not when his natural parents are still alive and possessing the capacity to fulfill their responsibilities to him. I don't know, as Sosa alleges, that Central went and "get" Daniel to sign stuff, but the first question Central should have asked is "where are his parents" and why aren't they here to sign for Levi. Your concern in all of this might be Levi, but clearly he's not Central's concern... otherwise Central wouldn't be holding out for more money. How does that benefit Levi? Right, it only benefits Central F.C. I can't say that I disagree with Central's stance, but I can tell you that I don't see how your organization would have any legs to stand on. The contract isn't illegal, it is per se invalid and Central will rue having rejected the $40,000 USD offer.
I have no doubt that the legitimacy of any contract may be challenged. In this case, Levi's parents elected for Daniel to attend the contract talks and act on their behalf. It may be the case that Pro League contracts are not water tight and may need a clause inserted stating something like "I have full authority of .... to witness this contract etc" Central have used the same system that has been used within the league for years. This may be the "Bosman" moment in T&T football that causes sea changes in player contracts. The questions that Bakes asked, were asked. In fact, I do believe that when we spoke to Levi's parents to set up the meeting, we were told that Daniel would be attending to represent them. I can see no moral wrong taking place here, but, as Bakes has pointed out, there may be a technicality that can be challenged.
Meanwhile, Sosa, who had the option to sign up Levi last March too, but clearly could not recognise talent, was not anywhere near the meeting, so how he can make such fanciful statements is beyond me.
Criticising Central for wanting to retain or benefit financially from talented players is ridiculous. This is how every club in the world works. You may as well say Central shouldn't use leather footballs! Every club searches for young talent to profit either by his talent or his resale value. There is nothing dastardly in Central's position. Alternatively, is it your view that Sosa is only concerned about Levi's contract because it may not be 100% legally watertight? Levi, and his brother Nathanial for that matter, have been perfectly happy at Central F.C. until Sosa came along. Or is it that Sosa is looking for a loophole to allow him to own Levi and personally profit? Are you seriously saying that Levi isn't "Central's concern... otherwise Central wouldn't be holding out for more money. How does that benefit Levi?" Yet Sosa is doing all of this without any interest in making money? The man had no connection with Levi until 3 weeks ago and now he's Levi's best friend and protector and Central is the wicked witch?
I understand that you don't disagree with our stance and that you feel that the contract could be the cause of our problems, and I agree with you. But I can say that US$40,000 will not be missed. It's not even a months running costs. What is being missed is Levi's talent. He was going to be a key player in our first team, because he is that good. And what also would be missed is the potential multi million $$ that Central believed they would receive from a sell on fee. That is our pot of gold. No T&T club has received a huge transfer fee. We all know that won't happen. So players move for free or for a token sum, but a sell on fee is inserted (like with Kenwyne Jones). This is a standard practice. We told Sosa that the sell on fee was the most important element if Levi found a club. He said that sell on fees don't exist, which is totally untrue. We also said we would be happy to deal with a club directly, but again, Sosa refused. He said we had to sell Levi to him for US$40,000 or he would just take the player. No club should do business on those terms. And it won't just be Central that lose out if Sosa wins this battle. FIFA have a player passport system so that clubs like Siparia Spurs, Levi's previous club, would receive a percentage of any transfer fee. That does not apply if an agent is a third party owner, another reason why TPO will be banned by 2018.
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... 18-year-old Seecharan, who is registered with Defence Force, will be allowed to move on without a transfer fee.
Why?
Probably because of the particular situation that is Defense Force... a public/quasi-public entity and not a true professional, for profit organization.
I believe if he was in the DF, they could get compensation. He is not a soldier as far as I know. He just play for their affiliated community youth club. Correct me!!
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And Levi is a f00cking idiot for making man thieve he head
Geez, Sam, I know how you feeling, but give the kid a pass nah man. he is only 16. Tell which 16 yr old who would not be bamboozled in a situation like this. It have older and much more mature men who do worse than him. He is at the same age as Dwight, when Dwight was in school.
I sorry he get caught in this contractual triangle. But potential footballers in particular have to get their thinking cap on when they are in demand by local and foreign clubs. I particularly feel for some of the parents who have little knowledge of the legal implications when they sign or give verbal agreements for their sons to go abroad to a club.
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Are you this whiny in person FS? Geez...
1. Since you're quoting me, I'll assume you're responding to me:
-I never accused Central of any "moral wrong."
-I never criticised Central "for wanting to retain or benefit financially from talented players."
-I never accused them of anything "dastardly."
-Not only did I not "disagree" with Central's stance, I offered no personal opinion on Central's stance... save for the legal merits (or lack thereof) as I see them.
2. Are you seriously saying that Levi isn't "Central's concern... otherwise Central wouldn't be holding out for more money. How does that benefit Levi?"
Yes, I'm seriously saying that the sincerity of your concern for Levi personally... is a bit difficult to believe. You pretty much validate the skepticism with the following comment:
What is being missed is Levi's talent. He was going to be a key player in our first team, because he is that good. And what also would be missed is the potential multi million $$ that Central believed they would receive from a sell on fee. That is our pot of gold. No T&T club has received a huge transfer fee.
Your 'concern' in all of this is that you see Jack attempting to abscond down the Beanstalk with your Golden Goose tucked neatly under his arm. Nothing wrong with that, just don't try and pass it off as concern for the kid.
3. You've gone from expressing utter confidence that Central would prevail in any dispute, to whistling in the wind, talking about challenges to the legitimacy of any contract; describing what I say as a "technicality"; that the contract could be the cause of your concerns. Look, you don't have to accept anything I have to say, Central needs to hire its own counsel anyways. Maybe when s/he says it to Sancho then you'll accept it. Just be happy that the $40,000 wouldn't be missed. :beermug:
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Are you this whiny in person FS? Geez...
1. Since you're quoting me, I'll assume you're responding to me:
-I never accused Central of any "moral wrong."
-I never criticised Central "for wanting to retain or benefit financially from talented players."
-I never accused them of anything "dastardly."
-Not only did I not "disagree" with Central's stance, I offered no personal opinion on Central's stance... save for the legal merits (or lack thereof) as I see them.
2. Are you seriously saying that Levi isn't "Central's concern... otherwise Central wouldn't be holding out for more money. How does that benefit Levi?"
Yes, I'm seriously saying that the sincerity of your concern for Levi personally... is a bit difficult to believe. You pretty much validate the skepticism with the following comment:
What is being missed is Levi's talent. He was going to be a key player in our first team, because he is that good. And what also would be missed is the potential multi million $$ that Central believed they would receive from a sell on fee. That is our pot of gold. No T&T club has received a huge transfer fee.
Your 'concern' in all of this is that you see Jack attempting to abscond down the Beanstalk with your Golden Goose tucked neatly under his arm. Nothing wrong with that, just don't try and pass it off as concern for the kid.
3. You've gone from expressing utter confidence that Central would prevail in any dispute, to whistling in the wind, talking about challenges to the legitimacy of any contract; describing what I say as a "technicality"; that the contract could be the cause of your concerns. Look, you don't have to accept anything I have to say, Central needs to hire its own counsel anyways. Maybe when s/he says it to Sancho then you'll accept it. Just be happy that the $40,000 wouldn't be missed. :beermug:
Thanks for your comments, but if you check again, I didn't accuse you of anything, however, I did make reference to your comments as I understood them. My point about this being Central's concern was to highlight the concept that the agent who has represented Levi for 3 weeks has no more concern for Levi than Central. If we are looking at this purely as a cold blooded financial transaction, then Central certainly have more concern for the player than the agent. It's worth noting that Central had no plans to transfer Levi until at least next Summer, unless an offer came along that Levi wanted to accept.
Your example of Jack and the Beanstalk is pretty much spot on (except I'm sure you didn't mean that Central is a sleeping giant (a sleeping dwarf-perhaps!!)
I am very confident that Central will prevail, but I wanted to acknowledge that your highlighting of certain legal technicalities are noted (and should be adopted in the future,)
And, for the record, Levi is a nice lad and I can state quite openly that myself, Brent and the other CFC staff do have concerns about what could go wrong for the boy. Many youngsters have become homesick and returned home (including Levi's brother). I have first hand experience of players being stranded and abandoned overseas, so does Brent because it actually happened to him. Finally, a young players mind can easily be distracted from football. Sending him on trial with this bacchanal is not the best preparation. You could say that we are contributing to this unsettling, but remember, as far as we are concerned, we are the party that has been wronged and we will fight our corner. Plenty of agents work in the system without encouraging players to breach their contracts.
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How could one 'breach' a non-existent contract? I'm not trying to beat up on your organization but you guys went about it wrong, about to seemingly get burned, and now you're crying foul. I for one don't believe Sosa is doing any of this out of the goodness of his heart, or concern for Levi's personal well-being, so not even sure why there's this comparative assessment of who has the kid's best interest at heart. That's an argument you need to be making to his parents. It seems as though your trust in them has been misplaced... that's life. Central will just have to learn from this and move on.
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How could one 'breach' a non-existent contract? I'm not trying to beat up on your organization but you guys went about it wrong, about to seemingly get burned, and now you're crying foul. I for one don't believe Sosa is doing any of this out of the goodness of his heart, or concern for Levi's personal well-being, so not even sure why there's this comparative assessment of who has the kid's best interest at heart. That's an argument you need to be making to his parents. It seems as though your trust in them has been misplaced... that's life. Central will just have to learn from this and move on.
The contract certainly exists. As mentioned, it was signed by both Levi and his parents elected representative/guardian/family representative (call him what you will). The contract has been in existence for 6 months and the player has received the stipulated salary.
I can find no FIFA rule stating that we should do anything different.
FIFA does state:
Players under the age of 18 may not sign a professional contract for a term longer than three years. Any clause referring to a longer period shall not be recognised. (Article 18)
International transfers of players are only permitted if the player is over the age of 18.
The following three exceptions to this rule apply:
a) The player’s parents move to the country in which the new club is located for reasons not linked to football;
b) The transfer takes place within the territory of the European Union (EU) or European Economic Area (EEA) and the player is aged between 16 and 18.
c) The player lives no further than 50km from a national border and the club with which the player wishes to be registered in the neighbouring association is also within 50km of that border. The maximum distance between the player’s domicile and the club’s headquarters shall be 100km. In such cases, the player must continue to live at home and the two associations concerned must give their explicit consent. (Article 19)
How, exactly did we go about this wrong? We can't force the parents to attend meetings instead of their elected representative. What if the parents were illiterate? Then we would be accused of taking advantage. Levi's parents sent their eldest son to represent their interests. I really can't see the issue other than Sosa trying to find some kind of fantasy to terminate the contract.
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Right, well how can my experience and expertise compete with your internet lawyering? None so blind as those who will not see :beermug:
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I fully support Central Fc on this one.
Football is a business.
Why didnt any other club, or Mr Sosa himself see it fit to sign the player before Central? Surely he was good then also.
This is a very dangerous precedence that could be set here, as agents could just come in and coax players into walking out on their contracts.
And who the hell is advising these u20 guys? SSFL really? they should be looking to strike the iron while its hot. Get a few Pro League games in and look to move somewhere in January. And FS is totally right. Some of these guys have no interest in academics. They hardly need to train to play.
While other 16 year olds are grinding and some will make it with half the talent as these guys down here.
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Right, well how can my experience and expertise compete with your internet lawyering? None so blind as those who will not see :beermug:
Bakes, I'm not challenging your legal knowledge. But a contract does exist. The content of the contract is exactly the same as every other player. The problem, if I understand your point, is that the contract may not be legal because Daniel Garcia is not a court appointed guardian?
Ok, that may be the point of law. However, am I right in saying that points of law can be challenged? Isn't this how new laws are made or old ones refined?
I believe we acted with the full consent of the Garcia family. I feel that we can prove this. The question is, can such a defence stand up in court? There may be thousands of similar "non -existent" contracts world wide that could be challenged if this is allowed to happen here. There are many scenarios where parents cannot afford to appoint a legal guardian so they sign a contract that they don't understand.
I understand the need to protect the minor, but in some instances, this point of law could have the opposite effect.
We believed we were acting correctly, and perhaps we may find that we were wrong legally, but Mr Sosa cannot be allowed to act against the spirit of the various rules and regulations without being contested because of any naivety on the part of the family or club.
And, yes, I understand that saying that "it's not fair" is not a credible defence.
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Garcia has big football dreams.
By Shaun Fuentes (TTFA)
Garcia comes from a family of three brothers and two sisters and credits his 26 year old brother Daniel for pushing him to success.
I now reading this part... this makes it even harder to justify. Daniel barely mature enough to be making such a big decision... even if he might be more sophisticated than his parents. And yes, even in Trinidad, especially if the parents are alive he'd have to be court-appointed. Of course Central could challenge whatever allyuh like, doesn't mean it will get anywhere. That same $40,000 USD yuh scoffing at allyuh might end up spending that in legal fees and see no end-product in return.
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The parents are still in a positon to assist the outcome ... might be the best way to proceed.
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Next time you guys need to get in a car and drive to the parents house when recruiting lol.
Collages in the states fly across country to sign players .
Levi parents must've said Wayne you go and do it , to far for all of us to go lol.
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So what about school levi will be missing some classes ...
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
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Next time you guys need to get in a car and drive to the parents house when recruiting lol.
Collages in the states fly across country to sign players .
Levi parents must've said Wayne you go and do it , to far for all of us to go lol.
With Winchester, Brent flew over to Tobago several time to meet the Mother, also the same with Daryl Trim. In this instance, the parents felt that Daniel would better understand the contract etc. Obviously, at age 26, Daniel is a mature adult, so if that was the family's option, then we felt we would go along with their wishes. Clearly, from now on, we would insist on a parent. Of course, if that parent can barely write their name, it's actually a huge disadvantage for the minor!
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
KD, I saw nothing in the video that suggested Central took advantage. The boy wanted to play football. The parents wanted him to play football. He chose to come to Central and we developed a 12-18 month plan that would see him move overseas in July 2015 or Dec 2015.
The only reason this is an issue is because an agent came along who wants to move Levi now (too soon, in our opinion) and not just represent him, but OWN him so he gets 100% of any transfer fee. No money will go to Shiva Boys or Siparia Spurs.
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Garcia has big football dreams.
By Shaun Fuentes (TTFA)
Garcia comes from a family of three brothers and two sisters and credits his 26 year old brother Daniel for pushing him to success.
I now reading this part... this makes it even harder to justify. Daniel barely mature enough to be making such a big decision... even if he might be more sophisticated than his parents. And yes, even in Trinidad, especially if the parents are alive he'd have to be court-appointed. Of course Central could challenge whatever allyuh like, doesn't mean it will get anywhere. That same $40,000 USD yuh scoffing at allyuh might end up spending that in legal fees and see no end-product in return.
26 is barely mature ??? and people start family before 25. Shocking :o
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
What was wrong with the woman demeanor in the video? What did she say or not say that make you question her intelligence?
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
KD, I saw nothing in the video that suggested Central took advantage. The boy wanted to play football. The parents wanted him to play football. He chose to come to Central and we developed a 12-18 month plan that would see him move overseas in July 2015 or Dec 2015.
The only reason this is an issue is because an agent came along who wants to move Levi now (too soon, in our opinion) and not just represent him, but OWN him so he gets 100% of any transfer fee. No money will go to Shiva Boys or Siparia Spurs.
FS I don't know why you keep explaining yuhself. It have men here who secretly want to see Central Sharks fail (moreso Sancho). Parents (I have personally seen in the US) give other adults permission to represent their children with out any lawyer or court document. Maybe the parents could lie and say they did not give 26 years old grown ass man permission to represent they younger son. But things like this happen all the time all over the world.
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
What was wrong with the woman demeanor in the video? What did she say or not say that make you question her intelligence?
Judit Garcia is a very pleasant lady who takes much interest in her sons careers. Mr Garcia is equally attentive. While they may not be too familiar with football contracts, they certainly are not illiterate in my understanding of the term. They are not attention seekers and being in the spoplight is not comfortable for Judit. I am certain that they are not at all comfortable with this tug of war situation as we had a very cordial relationship until the agent came onto the scene.
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
KD, I saw nothing in the video that suggested Central took advantage. The boy wanted to play football. The parents wanted him to play football. He chose to come to Central and we developed a 12-18 month plan that would see him move overseas in July 2015 or Dec 2015.
The only reason this is an issue is because an agent came along who wants to move Levi now (too soon, in our opinion) and not just represent him, but OWN him so he gets 100% of any transfer fee. No money will go to Shiva Boys or Siparia Spurs.
FS I don't know why you keep explaining yuhself. It have men here who secretly want to see Central Sharks fail (moreso Sancho). Parents (I have personally seen in the US) give other adults permission to represent their children with out any lawyer or court document. Maybe the parents could lie and say they did not give 26 years old grown ass man permission to represent they younger son. But things like this happen all the time all over the world.
Elan, this too is my experience. However, I think Bakes is pointing out that this may be fine when everything is rosy, but when the proverbial s**t hits the fan, you have no protection. As Bakes has pointed out, perhaps it would be wise going forward to get the parents signatures!
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
What was wrong with the woman demeanor in the video? What did she say or not say that make you question her intelligence?
Nothing is wrong with the lady and ppl should hold there tongue about the young mans family .
Just watched the vid ,one thing she did say is that she wants Levi is go abroad ,and I think it's that lure and bait by Keyser Sosa that hook them.
Central didn't promise them riches and glory maybe Sosa did.
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
What was wrong with the woman demeanor in the video? What did she say or not say that make you question her intelligence?
Agreed. Nothing of the sort manifested.
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Garcia has big football dreams.
By Shaun Fuentes (TTFA)
Garcia comes from a family of three brothers and two sisters and credits his 26 year old brother Daniel for pushing him to success.
I now reading this part... this makes it even harder to justify. Daniel barely mature enough to be making such a big decision... even if he might be more sophisticated than his parents. And yes, even in Trinidad, especially if the parents are alive he'd have to be court-appointed. Of course Central could challenge whatever allyuh like, doesn't mean it will get anywhere. That same $40,000 USD yuh scoffing at allyuh might end up spending that in legal fees and see no end-product in return.
26 is barely mature ??? and people start family before 25. Shocking :o
Correct. It's an overstatement.
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
KD, I saw nothing in the video that suggested Central took advantage. The boy wanted to play football. The parents wanted him to play football. He chose to come to Central and we developed a 12-18 month plan that would see him move overseas in July 2015 or Dec 2015.
The only reason this is an issue is because an agent came along who wants to move Levi now (too soon, in our opinion) and not just represent him, but OWN him so he gets 100% of any transfer fee. No money will go to Shiva Boys or Siparia Spurs.
FS I don't know why you keep explaining yuhself. It have men here who secretly want to see Central Sharks fail (moreso Sancho). Parents (I have personally seen in the US) give other adults permission to represent their children with out any lawyer or court document. Maybe the parents could lie and say they did not give 26 years old grown ass man permission to represent they younger son. But things like this happen all the time all over the world.
Elan, this too is my experience. However, I think Bakes is pointing out that this may be fine when everything is rosy, but when the proverbial s**t hits the fan, you have no protection. As Bakes has pointed out, perhaps it would be wise going forward to get the parents signatures!
And Bakes is correct, you all need to cover alyuh backside going forward.
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...
FS I don't know why you keep explaining yuhself. It have men here who secretly want to see Central Sharks fail (moreso Sancho).Parents (I have personally seen in the US) give other adults permission to represent their children with out any lawyer or court document. Maybe the parents could lie and say they did not give 26 years old grown ass man permission to represent they younger son. But things like this happen all the time all over the world.
Say it isn't so. I would hope not.
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What seems disturbing to me is: who is really looking out for the best interest of this young man and others like him?
Who is guiding him to make decisions that would impact his future? Who has asked him to consider completing school? an athlete's career is sometimes short lived and one injury away from ending. The glory is not a guarantee.
The club has an agenda, agents have agendas and others may be also self seeking but who is truly acting out of the good will for these young players?
If all parties acknowledged that mistakes were made and that blame could be put aside for awhile and focus on what is best for this young man, the process could probably move forward and all would walk away with lessons learned. However if opposing parties continue to work in ways for their pound of flesh-a stalemate will prevail.
The young moves on is released from his contract with the proviso that should he sign a foreign contract and procure employment all said monies that were paid to him locally be reimbursed and that the local club receive just compensation. If the player does not procure a contract, his local club gets first rights to sign him up with the parents and their adviser in attendance.
The ' finger pointing ' ought to stop and people ought to consider what is best for this young player at this time. Two wrongs eh go make this right. Let's say that one party negotiated in good faith and had all the best intentions= now another opportunity came along and one party wanted a divorce proceedings, what ought to occur so that both parties can relinquish ties and have an amicable agreement?
IMHO
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This situation reminds me of the beef between McComie and Fenwick that prevented Hyland, Guerra, and Peltier from fullfilling their dreams sooner rather than later.
After watching that short clip of Mrs. Garcia in Amwood's video clip, you have to wonder about her demeanor, her intelligence level and her naivete. Wow, Football Supporter, that short clip of this woman says a lot about things behind this fiasco.
Say it ain't so, partner. You didn't take advantage of this family. Did you?
What was wrong with the woman demeanor in the video? What did she say or not say that make you question her intelligence?
Nothing is wrong with the lady and ppl should hold there tongue about the young mans family .
Just watched the vid ,one thing she did say is that she wants Levi is go abroad ,and I think it's that lure and bait by Keyser Sosa that hook them.
Central didn't promise them riches and glory maybe Sosa did.
100% inaccurate! Central F.C. discussed Levi's career with the family. First, we asked about school and Levi was adamant that he wanted to play professional football. We suggested a year in the Pro League and Caribbean Club Championship would greatly aid his development and allow him to prepare for going overseas. We felt he would secure a place on the National team. We explained all of the pitfalls of moving overseas to the wrong club at so young an age, but agreed that if any serious inquiries came in, we would allow Levi to go on trial if he wished. We wanted to send him to Europe for two weeks to experience overseas professionalism and would also place him with a European club due to visit T&T in July for 10 days. Then we would actively push to move him overseas.
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26 is barely mature ??? and people start family before 25. Shocking :o
Correct. It's an overstatement.
It is "shocking" and an "overstatement" only if one fails to appreciate the context in which the statement was made. Were it an absolute statement on legal/mental capacity, then sure it would be a gross overstatement, as is the case with most absolute statements. However in this particular context you have a 26-year old who has usurped the authority of the natural parents, and by extension, of the minor himself and proceeded to bargain on the minor's behalf. All of this without authority, or where the authority is in question... his age and level of sophistication will absolutely factor into the rationale when the contract is eventually invalidated. You don't have to take my word for it.
And btw... the fact that people are mature enough to start families before 25 means very little. The age of consent in Trinidad is 17 (as it is in many US jurisdictions, where it even dips as low as 16), so a 17-year old is 'mature' enough to have sex and start a family, mature enough to hold a drivers license (in some cases), yet not mature enough to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol or vote in an election. Point being, it is folly to examine comments in isolation without regard to the context in which they're being made.
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26 is barely mature ??? and people start family before 25. Shocking :o
Correct. It's an overstatement.
It is "shocking" and an "overstatement" only if one fails to appreciate the context in which the statement was made. Were it an absolute statement on legal/mental capacity, then sure it would be a gross overstatement, as is the case with most absolute statements. However in this particular context you have a 26-year old who has usurped the authority of the natural parents, and by extension, of the minor himself and proceeded to bargain on the minor's behalf. All of this without authority, or where the authority is in question... his age and level of sophistication will absolutely factor into the rationale when the contract is eventually invalidated. You don't have to take my word for it.
And btw... the fact that people are mature enough to start families before 25 means very little. The age of consent in Trinidad is 17 (as it is in many US jurisdictions, where it even dips as low as 16), so a 17-year old is 'mature' enough to have sex and start a family, mature enough to hold a drivers license (in some cases), yet not mature enough to smoke tobacco, drink alcohol or vote in an election. Point being, it is folly to examine comments in isolation without regard to the context in which they're being made.
I have to question your statement: However in this particular context you have a 26-year old who has usurped the authority of the natural parents, and by extension, of the minor himself and proceeded to bargain on the minor's behalf. All of this without authority, or where the authority is in question Bakes, the man was nominated and sent by his parents. No one has denied this. The only issue was that there is no legal document appointing him as guardian. He usurped nobody.
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With Winchester, Brent flew over to Tobago several time to meet the Mother, also the same with Daryl Trim. In this instance, the parents felt that Daniel would better understand the contract etc. Obviously, at age 26, Daniel is a mature adult, so if that was the family's option, then we felt we would go along with their wishes. Clearly, from now on, we would insist on a parent. Of course, if that parent can barely write their name, it's actually a huge disadvantage for the minor!
Not at all, in such a situation you just petition the court to appoint a guardian ad litem to act on the behalf of the child, otherwise any club negotiating with an illiterate or barely literate parent would risk the contract similarly being invalidated. elan says stuff like this happens "all the time" but what he and the public doesn't see is what happens when the parties fall out and the situation ends up in court. "It happens all the time" hardly ever works as a defense in court.
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No money will go to Shiva Boys or Siparia Spurs.
Shiva Boys is a public school... why would/should they get any money??
I have to question your statement: However in this particular context you have a 26-year old who has usurped the authority of the natural parents, and by extension, of the minor himself and proceeded to bargain on the minor's behalf. All of this without authority, or where the authority is in question Bakes, the man was nominated and sent by his parents. No one has denied this. The only issue was that there is no legal document appointing him as guardian. He usurped nobody.
Sure, question it all you want. I wasn't there when whatever was said, but looking on objectively that is what the parents are tacitly claiming. The legal presumption is on their side, unfortunately for Central F.C.
Elan, this too is my experience. However, I think Bakes is pointing out that this may be fine when everything is rosy, but when the proverbial s**t hits the fan, you have no protection. As Bakes has pointed out, perhaps it would be wise going forward to get the parents signatures!
Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with a handshake deal (the proverbial "gentleman's agreement") but that presumes that you're dealing with 'gentlemen.' Assume nothing, and prepare for the worst.
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26 is barely mature ??? and people start family before 25. Shocking :o
Correct. It's an overstatement.
It is "shocking" and an "overstatement" only if one fails to appreciate the context in which the statement was made. Were it an absolute statement on legal/mental capacity, then sure it would be a gross overstatement, as is the case with most absolute statements. However in this particular context you have a 26-year old who has usurped the authority of the natural parents, and by extension, of the minor himself and proceeded to bargain on the minor's behalf. All of this without authority, or where the authority is in question... his age and level of sophistication will absolutely factor into the rationale when the contract is eventually invalidated. You don't have to take my word for it.
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I won't dwell on your second paragraph (redacted) because it is dedicated to content to which my comment was not addressed. That stated, we both know that "barely mature" is not the applicable standard.
Regarding your comment in bold (and the response to FS' query regarding it ...) ... Seriously?
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I won't dwell on your second paragraph (redacted) because it is dedicated to content to which my comment was not addressed. That stated, we both know that "barely mature" is not the applicable standard.
Regarding your comment in bold (and the response to FS' query regarding it ...) ... Seriously?
Since you apparently missed it the first time, I'll redirect you to my earlier comment, I made no reference to any 'applicable standard', so no need to waste any further time going back and forth on that with you. As for the latter comment, yes "seriously"... not something I need to debate either. This is precisely how the other side will present the issue to a court, and as I said, they have the benefit of the legal presumption. The significance of that apparently being lost on you, this means that it will be up to Central FC's lawyers to convince the court that the parents are lying, that Daniel did not have the authority to act as Levi's guardian. It's a very difficult burden to meet, even under the best of circumstances.
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I won't dwell on your second paragraph (redacted) because it is dedicated to content to which my comment was not addressed. That stated, we both know that "barely mature" is not the applicable standard.
Regarding your comment in bold (and the response to FS' query regarding it ...) ... Seriously?
Since you apparently missed it the first time, I'll redirect you to my earlier comment, I made no reference to any 'applicable standard', so no need to waste any further time going back and forth on that with you. As for the latter comment, yes "seriously"... not something I need to debate either. This is precisely how the other side will present the issue to a court, and as I said, they have the benefit of the legal presumption. The significance of that apparently being lost on you, this means that it will be up to Central FC's lawyers to convince the court that the parents are lying, that Daniel did not have the authority to act as Levi's guardian. It's a very difficult burden to meet, even under the best of circumstances.
That's a 'better' statement than the conclusive one you rendered previously. Hence, my incredulity ...
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That's a 'better' statement than the conclusive one you rendered previously. Hence, my incredulity ...
The one I "rendered previously" was already explained here to FS earlier...
Sure, question it all you want. I wasn't there when whatever was said, but looking on objectively that is what the parents are tacitly claiming. The legal presumption is on their side, unfortunately for Central F.C.
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work it out folks...
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Woulda like to see Aikim Andrews and Kevon Goddard go on trial to, them fellas ok.
So we 2 possible number 10 (Woo Ling and Fortune) drop form?
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Woulda like to see Aikim Andrews and Kevon Goddard go on trial to, them fellas ok.
So we 2 possible number 10 (Woo Ling and Fortune) drop form?
Sam, Goddard will get his chance. European clubs just laugh when you tell them a guy is playing school football. It's a children's game over there. These guys must get professional games under their belt. You will see Goddard in our first team squads this year.
Check out how many of England's schoolboy internationals make the top flight. Not many. A superstar at 16 isn't always going to be a quality adult player.
I strongly believe that talented 14 years olds should be in a residential & educational football academy. Maybe then, 16 would be ok to go overseas. But I prefer to send them at around age 18.
How many people here would be willing to send their 16 year old son half way around the world - different climate, customs, food, language - with a guy you have known for 2 weeks?
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(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll314/Chunkycj/Club_zps245fbc34.png) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/Chunkycj/media/Club_zps245fbc34.png.html)
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(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll314/Chunkycj/Club_zps245fbc34.png) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/Chunkycj/media/Club_zps245fbc34.png.html)
Thanks, Elan. However, I do believe that young players (particularly one as talented as Levi) are very capable of playing professional football and represent T&T. My concern is sending players overseas before they are mature enough to deal with the massive changes. Even for kids to move away inside their own country is very disorientating. I have spoken to England internationals who moved from North of England to London at age 16 and nearly gave up because they were homesick. Do not forget that these kids can be bullied or even victims of racism from other kids.
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(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll314/Chunkycj/Club_zps245fbc34.png) (http://s291.photobucket.com/user/Chunkycj/media/Club_zps245fbc34.png.html)
Thanks, Elan. However, I do believe that young players (particularly one as talented as Levi) are very capable of playing professional football and represent T&T. My concern is sending players overseas before they are mature enough to deal with the massive changes. Even for kids to move away inside their own country is very disorientating. I have spoken to England internationals who moved from North of England to London at age 16 and nearly gave up because they were homesick. Do not forget that these kids can be bullied or even victims of racism from other kids.
I like that comment because these agents don’t accommodate these youngster when they go overseas a lot of them cannot and mean cannot handle themselves overseas if the adult players find it difficult just imagine the young ones. Also these guys don’t understand what a contract is, they could be dealing with one agent if a next man come and say I have a trial for you they gone. Also Trinidad players have a bad name out there a lot of agents wouldn’t touch them.
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Also Trinidad players have a bad name out there a lot of agents wouldn’t touch them.
How is this so? give an example.
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can't give names however there is a reason some not going Europe and have to go Asia that’s all I could say.
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Central will lose in this matter regarding Garcia! I am not questioning their intent when initiating the contract in any way. However from an objective standpoint, without the brother having being legally appointed as guardian or given legal power of attorney for the parents this contract will not stand in a court of law. Sosa ketch allyuh wid allyuh pants dong!! Sorry CFC but this will be a necessary lesson so as to avoid any such issues in the future.
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Central will lose in this matter regarding Garcia! I am not questioning their intent when initiating the contract in any way. However from an objective standpoint, without the brother having being legally appointed as guardian or given legal power of attorney for the parents this contract will not stand in a court of law. Sosa ketch allyuh wid allyuh pants dong!! Sorry CFC but this will be a necessary lesson so as to avoid any such issues in the future.
Lessons will be learned by all parties. Lot's of people have spoken about employing minors, appointing guardians etc, but nobody, not one person, has yet to show me a law, rule, regulation that says otherwise.
The 2005 T&T Child Labour Review says : Trinidad and Tobago, after consultation with the social partners, has determined a minimum age for admission to employment or work at age 16. I cannot find any amendment to this law. There is no FIFA rules been broken and no Pro League rules. Regarding guardians (if it is even applicable) there are no Pro League or FIFA rules and the T&T 2012 Childrens Act says : Guardian – any person who has, in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child, responsibility for the child. I'm willing, if it reaches that far, to go to court for someone to prove that Daniel Garcia had no cognizance of Levi's situation.
But, it is clear that the TTFA need to look at this situation and make suitable adjustments to ensure all parties are suitably protected.
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Central will lose in this matter regarding Garcia! I am not questioning their intent when initiating the contract in any way. However from an objective standpoint, without the brother having being legally appointed as guardian or given legal power of attorney for the parents this contract will not stand in a court of law. Sosa ketch allyuh wid allyuh pants dong!! Sorry CFC but this will be a necessary lesson so as to avoid any such issues in the future.
Lessons will be learned by all parties. Lot's of people have spoken about employing minors, appointing guardians etc, but nobody, not one person, has yet to show me a law, rule, regulation that says otherwise.
The 2005 T&T Child Labour Review says : Trinidad and Tobago, after consultation with the social partners, has determined a minimum age for admission to employment or work at age 16. I cannot find any amendment to this law. There is no FIFA rules been broken and no Pro League rules. Regarding guardians (if it is even applicable) there are no Pro League or FIFA rules and the T&T 2012 Childrens Act says : Guardian – any person who has, in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child, responsibility for the child. I'm willing, if it reaches that far, to go to court for someone to prove that Daniel Garcia had no cognizance of Levi's situation.
But, it is clear that the TTFA need to look at this situation and make suitable adjustments to ensure all parties are suitably protected.
That responsible for the child part is de sword that will dice allyuh up. The question that the court will have to address is how can anyone outside of the child's 2 living parents be deemed "legally" responsible for said child? Do you all have any tangible proof of the parents giving Daniel the power to endorse the agreement on their behalf? If not I imagine the judge will say something along the lines of "the document needed to be endorsed by the parents. Having a more experienced family member look at it to make sure it was a legitimate document isn't an issue but without legal power to do so, their signature does not render the agreement valid"
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Central will lose in this matter regarding Garcia! I am not questioning their intent when initiating the contract in any way. However from an objective standpoint, without the brother having being legally appointed as guardian or given legal power of attorney for the parents this contract will not stand in a court of law. Sosa ketch allyuh wid allyuh pants dong!! Sorry CFC but this will be a necessary lesson so as to avoid any such issues in the future.
Lessons will be learned by all parties. Lot's of people have spoken about employing minors, appointing guardians etc, but nobody, not one person, has yet to show me a law, rule, regulation that says otherwise.
The 2005 T&T Child Labour Review says : Trinidad and Tobago, after consultation with the social partners, has determined a minimum age for admission to employment or work at age 16. I cannot find any amendment to this law. There is no FIFA rules been broken and no Pro League rules. Regarding guardians (if it is even applicable) there are no Pro League or FIFA rules and the T&T 2012 Childrens Act says : Guardian – any person who has, in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child, responsibility for the child. I'm willing, if it reaches that far, to go to court for someone to prove that Daniel Garcia had no cognizance of Levi's situation.
But, it is clear that the TTFA need to look at this situation and make suitable adjustments to ensure all parties are suitably protected.
That responsible for the child part is de sword that will dice allyuh up. The question that the court will have to address is how can anyone outside of the child's 2 living parents be deemed "legally" responsible for said child? Do you all have any tangible proof of the parents giving Daniel the power to endorse the agreement on their behalf? If not I imagine the judge will say something along the lines of "the document needed to be endorsed by the parents. Having a more experienced family member look at it to make sure it was a legitimate document isn't an issue but without legal power to do so, their signature does not render the agreement valid"
It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken. It's a moot point anyway, because as far as I can discover, a 16 year old can take employment without his parents permission.
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It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken. It's a moot point anyway, because as far as I can discover, a 16 year old can take employment without his parents permission.
Dude you really typed that? So any family member could say "I is X person guardian and witness them sign a contract even if parents alive? You seriously believe than nonsense? And wasn't you the one who said as long as a parent or guardian consent a contract can be entered with a 16 year old? So which is it you believe they are emancipated and don't need the parents or guardian or it it what you stated before? I eh goin in no more long talk nah because unless the parents willing to admit in court that they expressly gave their permision for Daniel to act on their behalf that K eh carryin no weight. Sancho shoulda call he lawyer padna and ax ah question because I sure no sensible lawyer was advising allyuh on that.
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Central will lose in this matter regarding Garcia! I am not questioning their intent when initiating the contract in any way. However from an objective standpoint, without the brother having being legally appointed as guardian or given legal power of attorney for the parents this contract will not stand in a court of law. Sosa ketch allyuh wid allyuh pants dong!! Sorry CFC but this will be a necessary lesson so as to avoid any such issues in the future.
Lessons will be learned by all parties. Lot's of people have spoken about employing minors, appointing guardians etc, but nobody, not one person, has yet to show me a law, rule, regulation that says otherwise.
The 2005 T&T Child Labour Review says : Trinidad and Tobago, after consultation with the social partners, has determined a minimum age for admission to employment or work at age 16. I cannot find any amendment to this law. There is no FIFA rules been broken and no Pro League rules. Regarding guardians (if it is even applicable) there are no Pro League or FIFA rules and the T&T 2012 Childrens Act says : Guardian – any person who has, in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child, responsibility for the child. I'm willing, if it reaches that far, to go to court for someone to prove that Daniel Garcia had no cognizance of Levi's situation.
But, it is clear that the TTFA need to look at this situation and make suitable adjustments to ensure all parties are suitably protected.
The TTFA has no say on this matter... similarly, this isn't a "labor" issue, it is contractual. The inability for minors to enter into a contract (other than for necessities) is settled law. It's not for me or anybody else to show or convince you otherwise... at the end of the day nobody here, but Central FC and it's representatives, and Levi Garcia and his representatives, have any dog in this fight. The only way for a minor to enter into a contract not for necessities, is with the intercession of a parent/guardian. Such guardianship isn't made by agreement between the parent and putative guardian because it's not the parent's right to bargain away. The right belongs to the minor and courts are fiercely vigilant of protecting the rights of minors. A guardian has to be examined by the court before consent is granted. You seem to want conclusive proof of this in writing... well that's what you pay a lawyer for, and and sure s/he will render his/her expert opinion accordingly. This isn't me being dismissive of your concerns, but rather me telling you that if you harbor such strong doubts, this isn't the proper forum (no pun intended) to have them answered.
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It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken. It's a moot point anyway, because as far as I can discover, a 16 year old can take employment without his parents permission.
LOL... really? Okay.
And no, a child cannot take employment without his parents permission, the parents have the right to determine what is best for the child, and if the parent thinks employment is against the best interest of the child then the parent can prohibit it. The age requirement simply means that a child under the age of 12 cannot be employed under any circumstance, and then only in certain activities until the age of 18. But again, you are looking at this thru the wrong prism, this isn't a labor dispute, it's a contractual issue, specifically whether the contract is binding on Levi Garcia.
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It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken. It's a moot point anyway, because as far as I can discover, a 16 year old can take employment without his parents permission.
LOL... really? Okay.
And no, a child cannot take employment without his parents permission, the parents have the right to determine what is best for the child, and if the parent thinks employment is against the best interest of the child then the parent can prohibit it. The age requirement simply means that a child under the age of 12 cannot be employed under any circumstance, and then only in certain activities until the age of 18. But again, you are looking at this thru the wrong prism, this isn't a labor dispute, it's a contractual issue, specifically whether the contract is binding on Levi Garcia.
I appreciate your input, I really do, but I guess my lack of understanding is because nobody can show me the laws or rules that apply. All I'm asking for is something like "Child Labour Act, 2012 section 4.3" or whatever the relevant section is. Contracts of professional football clubs can, of course, be challenged. However, the contract and the rules of the relevant leagues and football associations (including FIFA) have a due process. In this instance, no Pro League, TTFA or FIFA rules have been broken by Central F.C. If Levi attempts to join another club without the agreement of Central F.C., it will be he who is in violation of various rules.
However, TTFA, as the governing body of T&T football does have a say in the matter. They, if you like, are the highest football court in the land. If Levi Garcia cannot solve his grievance with Central F.C. he can then apply to the Pro League. If he still is not happy, his next step is to apply to TTFA to hear the case. Wherever possible, football matters are supposed to be settled through football bodies such as FIFA's Player Status Committee. As we saw with the SocaWarriors and with Bosman, arbitration does not always work, so it ends up in court.
I quoted the only labour laws that I can find relating to minors. If, as you have said, it is contract law, well that's something I know little about (which, as you rightfully pointed out, is why we pay lawyers).
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It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken. It's a moot point anyway, because as far as I can discover, a 16 year old can take employment without his parents permission.
Dude you really typed that? So any family member could say "I is X person guardian and witness them sign a contract even if parents alive? You seriously believe than nonsense? And wasn't you the one who said as long as a parent or guardian consent a contract can be entered with a 16 year old? So which is it you believe they are emancipated and don't need the parents or guardian or it it what you stated before? I eh goin in no more long talk nah because unless the parents willing to admit in court that they expressly gave their permision for Daniel to act on their behalf that K eh carryin no weight. Sancho shoulda call he lawyer padna and ax ah question because I sure no sensible lawyer was advising allyuh on that.
Actually, no I didn't type that. I typed: It does not ask for legal responsibility, it says in the opinion of a court, having cognizance of any case in relation to the child The courts opinion is not based on any laws, because none (to my knowledge) have been broken.
We have several different points here. To my knowledge, a contract with a 16 year old can be entered into if a parent or guardian give their consent.
I then quoted further information from the Child Labour Review and the Children's Act. I didn't make these up! Whatever you may believe, I feel that a court may form an opinion that a 26 year old former professional footballer may have cognizance in this case in relation to his younger brother. Of course, the court may feel differently. But, if the contract is a document used several hundred times per year and there appears to be no rule in global football preventing Daniel from witnessing the signing, the court may decide to uphold the contract. It could also be argued that Levi had far superior expert advice frome his brother than could be provided by the majority of parents in this matter.
This whole thing will be settled by lawyers. I'm just trying to be open about the issue.
To me, the case is simple. We signed a player within the rules of the sport, as has happened numerous times before, we paid the player, we would not agree to sell the player to a Third Party Operation, the TPO encouraged the player to breach his contract.
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I appreciate your input, I really do, but I guess my lack of understanding is because nobody can show me the laws or rules that apply. All I'm asking for is something like "Child Labour Act, 2012 section 4.3" or whatever the relevant section is. Contracts of professional football clubs can, of course, be challenged. However, the contract and the rules of the relevant leagues and football associations (including FIFA) have a due process. In this instance, no Pro League, TTFA or FIFA rules have been broken by Central F.C. If Levi attempts to join another club without the agreement of Central F.C., it will be he who is in violation of various rules.
However, TTFA, as the governing body of T&T football does have a say in the matter. They, if you like, are the highest football court in the land. If Levi Garcia cannot solve his grievance with Central F.C. he can then apply to the Pro League. If he still is not happy, his next step is to apply to TTFA to hear the case. Wherever possible, football matters are supposed to be settled through football bodies such as FIFA's Player Status Committee. As we saw with the SocaWarriors and with Bosman, arbitration does not always work, so it ends up in court.
I quoted the only labour laws that I can find relating to minors. If, as you have said, it is contract law, well that's something I know little about (which, as you rightfully pointed out, is why we pay lawyers).
Right, you're looking for some "statutory" provision, and I'm sure it exists... somewhere. I can find some statutes by searching online, but I don't always have that kind of time to search. A local lawyer should know how to more efficiently access the relevant statutes. More importantly, Trinidad is a common law jurisdiction, meaning many of the laws on the books aren't passed by Act of Parliament ("statutory") but rather arise out of cases in the courts. It is settled in common law that minors lack the capacity to enter contracts... as noted. So what you're looking for would quicker be found in the common law ("in Applesby v. Gigglesby" etc.) rather than in some "Act".
The TTFA has no say in this situation... TTFA procedures and regulations don't trump the common law.
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I appreciate your input, I really do, but I guess my lack of understanding is because nobody can show me the laws or rules that apply. All I'm asking for is something like "Child Labour Act, 2012 section 4.3" or whatever the relevant section is. Contracts of professional football clubs can, of course, be challenged. However, the contract and the rules of the relevant leagues and football associations (including FIFA) have a due process. In this instance, no Pro League, TTFA or FIFA rules have been broken by Central F.C. If Levi attempts to join another club without the agreement of Central F.C., it will be he who is in violation of various rules.
However, TTFA, as the governing body of T&T football does have a say in the matter. They, if you like, are the highest football court in the land. If Levi Garcia cannot solve his grievance with Central F.C. he can then apply to the Pro League. If he still is not happy, his next step is to apply to TTFA to hear the case. Wherever possible, football matters are supposed to be settled through football bodies such as FIFA's Player Status Committee. As we saw with the SocaWarriors and with Bosman, arbitration does not always work, so it ends up in court.
I quoted the only labour laws that I can find relating to minors. If, as you have said, it is contract law, well that's something I know little about (which, as you rightfully pointed out, is why we pay lawyers).
Right, you're looking for some "statutory" provision, and I'm sure it exists... somewhere. I can find some statutes by searching online, but I don't always have that kind of time to search. A local lawyer should know how to more efficiently access the relevant statutes. More importantly, Trinidad is a common law jurisdiction, meaning many of the laws on the books aren't passed by Act of Parliament ("statutory") but rather arise out of cases in the courts. It is settled in common law that minors lack the capacity to enter contracts... as noted. So what you're looking for would quicker be found in the common law ("in Applesby v. Gigglesby" etc.) rather than in some "Act".
The TTFA has no say in this situation... TTFA procedures and regulations don't trump the common law.
OK, thanks, I now understand your meaning.
Your comment about TTFA is another situation. For example, if I worked for KFC, I could quit today and start work for Church's chicken tomorrow. Footballers can't do this, as professional football is accepted as being unique. In order to protect the financial integrity of the clubs and leagues, there is a very different concept of employment rights. Some people have likened it to slavery as a club, literally, owns a player through the term of his contract and can trade him or sell him.
This uniqueness can be tested in a court of law, just like the Bosman case and it could lead to new rules within football. But at this time, if a player tries to join a club in another country, it has to be done through FIFA's TMS (Transfer Management System). The player's last club has to agree to the transfer and complete documentation. If the club does not agree with the transfer, it's football association must refuse to issue an ITC (International Transfer Certificate) pending a decision by FIFA. As long as all rules concerning the registration of the player by the club have been followed, TTFA would have a duty to protect it's member. So, whatever the common law situation concerning the signing of a player under 18, the ownership of the player's registration would need to be challenged. It could become a case that affects clubs around the world, just like Bosman. But it could take years to resolve. But, I believe that no club would sign the player. FIFA article 17.4 states: any club signing a professional who has terminated his contract without just cause has induced that professional to commit a breach. The club shall be banned from registering any new players, either nationally or internationally, for two registration periods.
As mentioned, perhaps the common law that you mentioned could be proved, but that could take years. Meanwhile, no FIFA rules have been broken, so any transfer would probably be blocked. A purchasing club would not want to risk a 12 month transfer ban.
Of course, this is just my opinion based on my understanding.
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OK, thanks, I now understand your meaning.
Your comment about TTFA is another situation. For example, if I worked for KFC, I could quit today and start work for Church's chicken tomorrow. Footballers can't do this, as professional football is accepted as being unique. In order to protect the financial integrity of the clubs and leagues, there is a very different concept of employment rights. Some people have likened it to slavery as a club, literally, owns a player through the term of his contract and can trade him or sell him.
This uniqueness can be tested in a court of law, just like the Bosman case and it could lead to new rules within football. But at this time, if a player tries to join a club in another country, it has to be done through FIFA's TMS (Transfer Management System). The player's last club has to agree to the transfer and complete documentation. If the club does not agree with the transfer, it's football association must refuse to issue an ITC (International Transfer Certificate) pending a decision by FIFA. As long as all rules concerning the registration of the player by the club have been followed, TTFA would have a duty to protect it's member. So, whatever the common law situation concerning the signing of a player under 18, the ownership of the player's registration would need to be challenged. It could become a case that affects clubs around the world, just like Bosman. But it could take years to resolve. But, I believe that no club would sign the player. FIFA article 17.4 states: any club signing a professional who has terminated his contract without just cause has induced that professional to commit a breach. The club shall be banned from registering any new players, either nationally or internationally, for two registration periods.
As mentioned, perhaps the common law that you mentioned could be proved, but that could take years. Meanwhile, no FIFA rules have been broken, so any transfer would probably be blocked. A purchasing club would not want to risk a 12 month transfer ban.
Of course, this is just my opinion based on my understanding.
Not really... everything you say is premised on the existence of a valid contract (blue highlights). And it's not at all unique to football, it is true of every professional sport. A player under contract to play basketball in Europe can't just come to the US and sign with an NBA team without the consent of the team to which he's already under contract. In fact this isn't even unique to sports, any contract where the services contracted for is done so on an exclusive basis, meaning you can't off the same service to another party during the duration of the contract, then there would be such a prohibition. Of course in sports there is mutual agreement across the board that no one hires a player already under contract, whereas in the rest of the contract world somebody would breach and go to court.
Now that being said, Levi is still underaged so there's no question that the contract was signed while he was a minor. The onus ("burden of persuasion") is on your club to prove the validity of the contract, not the other way around. The parents' signatures are not on the contract and Daniel lacked the authority to sign on Levi's behalf. Now there's an outside chance your lawyer could argue "apparent authority" and hope a court agrees, but again, where as here a minor's rights are concerned, courts are inclined to protect the rights of the minor, which is to say, in all likelihood they'll side with him. Until then, believe it or not, Levi is a free agent. If he signs with another club during the pendency of this case and the courts side with Central, then Central would just be entitled to compensation, not his services. Any club signing him in the mean time would not be at risk of sanction from FIFA because as it stands, it is not established that he IS under contract. You won't agree with this, and that is fine, but I'm pretty confident about what I'm saying.
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OK, thanks, I now understand your meaning.
Your comment about TTFA is another situation. For example, if I worked for KFC, I could quit today and start work for Church's chicken tomorrow. Footballers can't do this, as professional football is accepted as being unique. In order to protect the financial integrity of the clubs and leagues, there is a very different concept of employment rights. Some people have likened it to slavery as a club, literally, owns a player through the term of his contract and can trade him or sell him.
This uniqueness can be tested in a court of law, just like the Bosman case and it could lead to new rules within football. But at this time, if a player tries to join a club in another country, it has to be done through FIFA's TMS (Transfer Management System). The player's last club has to agree to the transfer and complete documentation. If the club does not agree with the transfer, it's football association must refuse to issue an ITC (International Transfer Certificate) pending a decision by FIFA. As long as all rules concerning the registration of the player by the club have been followed, TTFA would have a duty to protect it's member. So, whatever the common law situation concerning the signing of a player under 18, the ownership of the player's registration would need to be challenged. It could become a case that affects clubs around the world, just like Bosman. But it could take years to resolve. But, I believe that no club would sign the player. FIFA article 17.4 states: any club signing a professional who has terminated his contract without just cause has induced that professional to commit a breach. The club shall be banned from registering any new players, either nationally or internationally, for two registration periods.
As mentioned, perhaps the common law that you mentioned could be proved, but that could take years. Meanwhile, no FIFA rules have been broken, so any transfer would probably be blocked. A purchasing club would not want to risk a 12 month transfer ban.
Of course, this is just my opinion based on my understanding.
Not really... everything you say is premised on the existence of a valid contract (blue highlights). And it's not at all unique to football, it is true of every professional sport. A player under contract to play basketball in Europe can't just come to the US and sign with an NBA team without the consent of the team to which he's already under contract. In fact this isn't even unique to sports, any contract where the services contracted for is done so on an exclusive basis, meaning you can't off the same service to another party during the duration of the contract, then there would be such a prohibition. Of course in sports there is mutual agreement across the board that no one hires a player already under contract, whereas in the rest of the contract world somebody would breach and go to court.
Now that being said, Levi is still underaged so there's no question that the contract was signed while he was a minor. The onus ("burden of persuasion") is on your club to prove the validity of the contract, not the other way around. The parents' signatures are not on the contract and Daniel lacked the authority to sign on Levi's behalf. Now there's an outside chance your lawyer could argue "apparent authority" and hope a court agrees, but again, where as here a minor's rights are concerned, courts are inclined to protect the rights of the minor, which is to say, in all likelihood they'll side with him. Until then, believe it or not, Levi is a free agent. If he signs with another club during the pendency of this case and the courts side with Central, then Central would just be entitled to compensation, not his services. Any club signing him in the mean time would not be at risk of sanction from FIFA because as it stands, it is not established that he IS under contract. You won't agree with this, and that is fine, but I'm pretty confident about what I'm saying.
Looks pretty grim for us then! But we will continue to contest this situation. I'm sure many feel that Central should let the boy be owned by a management company and sold overseas, but to me, if we've followed all of the Pro League and FIFA rules, we should not lose the player. So, maybe we'll have to rely on the "boo hoo, it's not fair" defence!
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Get a lawyer who could look into the local laws... or talk to the family and try to resolve this. No sense demonizing Sosa for doing what any smart person in his situation would have done.
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https://www.youtube.com/v/ODa9mZ9XjkI
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Using Facebook to bounty-hunt football's 'disappeared' players (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/17/sport/football/football-facebook-teixeira/)
(CNN) -- European football's summer months are dominated by back-page headlines of glamorous transfers involving the game's most prestigious players, with Arsenal's Robin van Persie the most notable example this last few weeks as he ponders whether to stay with the London club after saying he will not renew his contract.
But at the bottom of the football pyramid -- a world that receives little attention from the global media -- there are many deals that involve young players who are just starting their careers, the clubs that have trained them, and those that are interested in signing them in the hope that they might be the next Lionel Messi.
The story of Messi's early years in Argentina and his signing by Barcelona has been retold countless times. Of how, diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency, the kid who would become the world's best player went to Spain after Barcelona offered to pay his medical bills.
What is less well known is that Barcelona did not immediately pay his former club Newell's Old Boys the training compensation fee that the Argentine team was due.
Newell's Old Boys did claim $42,867 in reparation, but had to go all the way to FIFA's Dispute Resolution Chamber to get the payment.
It takes time and money for clubs to develop players, but the rewards can be enormous given the voracious appetite of ambitious teams looking for new talent.
But this talent trawl leaves casualties and an academic study in 2009 estimated as many as 20,000 African boys are living in the streets of Europe after failing to secure contracts with European clubs following their trials.
Under rules established by football's international governing body FIFA, those clubs seeking that new talent agree to pay the team that nurtured the youngster a "training compensation" fee.
FIFA has a cash formula that is designed to compensate the "training club" for the years spent developing players up to the age of 23, when they sign their first professional contract.
However, sports agent Paulo Teixeira says some European teams do not always play ball in agreeing these compensation fees.
Teixeira, who has worked as a player agent and once represented former Brazil international Roberto Carlos, has taken to posting about training compensation on Facebook., pointing to the way social media was used during the Arab Spring as a motivation in raising publicity over the issue.
"It's a matter of culture," Teixeira writes on Facebook, recounting what he says he was told by an executive of a European team ahead of the Champions League final in Munich back in May.
"European clubs are ready to pay millions on transfer fees, but when it comes to settling training compensation to African or South Americans clubs, it becomes a problem.
"Clubs know that they will have to pay once the cases reach FIFA, but until then they buy time."
The Brazilian agent is football's equivalent of a bounty hunter, taking a hefty commission from the teams he represents in cases he takes before FIFA to claim training compensation from larger clubs.
Teixeira details his disputes with a number of those European clubs on Facebook, claiming they failed to pay the true cost of training a player to the development club, based on FIFA's formula.
Unhappy about these Facebook postings, at least two of those clubs -- Italy's AC Milan and Anderlecht of Belgium -- have complained to FIFA about what they claim is "defamation and calumny".
"FIFA can confirm that AC Milan and Anderlecht have lodged complaints against the agent Paulo Teixeira and that FIFA has opened a case," FIFA told CNN.
"However, as the investigations are currently ongoing we cannot comment or speculate at this stage."
But as well referencing the Arab Spring, Teixeira quotes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- "everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression" -- as justification for his campaign.
In one of the cases Teixeira posts about, he claims AC Milan owes Botafogo FC of Ribeirao Preto compensation involving its training of the player Sergio Ceregatti.
He says the claim is based on the calculation that Ceregatti was with the Brazilian club for four years before moving to Italy.
Ceregatti initially joined Ancona and then signed for Milan, with Botafogo not compensated for those formative years of training as per FIFA's rules.
"At this stage, I just can tell you that the player gave three different declarations (one of them signed by his father, when Ceregatti was still a minor) about the duration of his registration to Botafogo -- nine months; 24 months; 48 months circa," said Leandro Cantamessa, the lawyer acting for AC Milan.
"AC Milan immediately paid on May 2011 the amount requested by Teixeira pursuant to the first player's declaration and moreover in conformity with Botafogo's records, as collected by Brazilian Federation (CBF) in the so-called sport passport, duly attached to the first Teixeira claim.
"The last declaration has been released by Ceregatti in Brazil, in January 2012, after his escape from Italy and from contractual obligations with AC Milan."
Texeira tells a very different story, insisting he has full the support of Ceregatti, who recently returned to Brazil after signing with Vasco da Gama, and that the Brazilian footballer confirms he had been at Botafogo for four years since the age of 12 from 2004.
"The claim is for Botafogo and has nothing to do with Ceregatti," added Teixeira, after CNN asked to interview the player.
As for Anderlecht, general manager Hermann van Holsbeeck refused to comment on Teixeira's $122,822 compensation claim on behalf of DR Congo club CS Aigles Verts relating to one of their players, but added: "We have introduced a file against Teixeira by FIFA. We will defend our position at the court."
Teixeira works closely with the Brazilian National Amateur League manager Jose Tobaldini, who keeps track of 140,000 players on a computer database and believes hundreds of young players literally "disappear" from their clubs -- lured away by agents and scouts.
"I know they've all gone to Europe, most of them have the possibility of acquiring dual citizenship," says Tobaldini.
Teixeira claims on Facebook that "a generation of dozens of young Brazilian and African players were literally taken away from their original clubs by dubious agents and brought to Italy under the so-called primo tesseramento (first contract)."
Often smaller clubs in Brazil and Africa do not have the financial resources to find out what has happened to their players after they have left, presumably for Europe -- which means they are often left without compensation. That is where Teixeira steps in.
After a player has turned professional, Teixeira -- with the help of Tobaldini -- tracks down the development club to see if there are compensation issues and then begins the administrative process of demanding what he says is the correct sum to be paid by the European clubs.
"In the beginning I was approaching the clubs, but now more and more I am approached by clubs," said Teixeira. "All due to the internet, as you can imagine. Some African agents have sent me messages saying I've become an icon."
In an arrangement that is reminiscent of the kind of fees "uplift" that successful personal injury lawyers use to get paid if and when a dispute is resolved, Teixeria would receive a 20% commission of the amount of the claim.
So in the cases he lists on Facebook, the potential compensation amount is close to $2.4 million, which would net Teixeira approximately $480,000 if he is successful.
"Big clubs are always challenging the conformity of training compensation with EU law," said Argentine lawyer Ariel Reck, who also has experience with of this area and it is a view supported by British lawyer Guy Thomas.
"The Jean-Marc Bosman case may have increased player power," said Thomas, referring to the landmark judgment allowing players to move for free at the end of their contract, "but ongoing uncertainty over the best way to calculate compensation still allows clubs the chance to push back or delay payment."
"This is also a business for sports lawyers, I have to confess. Not only South American but also big European firms (mostly Spanish due to language issues) offer clubs the services to claim and collect such compensations. Fees can be as high as 30% of the amount," he said.
Gravy train or not, this issue may also be an administrative headache for FIFA, which says it receives 3,500 complaints a year -- though not all of these relate to training compensation cases.
"FIFA's normal procedure says that a case should be opened within three to five weeks after the claim is lodged," said lawyer Fernando Lamar, who works with Teixeira.
"FIFA says that an ordinary case would take six to 12 months to be solved. However, we have cases in progress for almost two years and we're not halfway through.
"You cannot imagine the time and energy spent trying to reach a FIFA officer to have information about the claims. It is almost a lost battle; the most common responses we get are, 'We are overloaded,' 'We have no time.' "
In a statement to CNN, FIFA said: "Cases are normally opened within a couple of weeks following the receipt of the relevant complaint.
"As to the duration of a specific procedure, we need to emphasize that many factors influence the advancement of the investigation phase and the decision-making process: the cooperation of the parties, the complexity of the matter, the extent of the documentation provided, the availability of the deciding body -- just to name a few.
"Consequently, we are really not in a position to comment on an estimated timescale ."
In a recent edition of the Sports Law Bulletin, a doctoral researcher at England's University of Westminster came up with an idea to help protect the treatment of minors in football.
"A possible solution to prevent such circumstances could be introduction of a form of authorization for trials via the transfer matching system, albeit trials cannot be deemed as a transfer, " wrote Serhat Yilmaz, referring to FIFA's governing body electronic method of conducting transfers.
So as the lawyers, agents and administrators argue, does Tobaldini have any advice for parents considering letting their offspring move to European clubs?
"First you should build the athlete up, maintain his focus on school and look for an agent -- properly accredited -- with the goal of taking care of his professional career."
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
One of them already has a contract!!!
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
One of them already has a contract!!!
Who? how long? which team?
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
One of them already has a contract!!!
Who? how long? which team?
Levi Garcia, Central F.C. until May 2016
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
One of them already has a contract!!!
Who? how long? which team?
Levi Garcia, Central F.C. until May 2016
Ah FS ........... this will be plenty Bacchanal
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Has any of the 5 U20 players earned a contract yet ?
One of them already has a contract!!!
Who? how long? which team?
Levi Garcia, Central F.C. until May 2016
Touché... Not surprised by this answer tbh. Classic :rotfl: :rotfl: :beermug:
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Makes me now wonder how much private payment did Harrison and Sancho made on Levi?
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Makes me now wonder how much private payment did Harrison and Sancho made on Levi?
ENT