Soca Warriors Online Discussion Forum
Sports => Football => Topic started by: KND2 on December 20, 2005, 08:56:35 AM
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Playing to come out of a group is an art in it of itself
It is a lot different than playing Head to head or playing in the hex.
Our performance in the Gold Cup was poor and we could not recover to come out of the group even though we had great expectations.
Our limited experience in group type play will hurt us.
Unless we are able to start strong and beat sweeden we will have problems because chasing the game will not help our defensive situation against paraguary or England.
Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
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if scotty didnt have any problems then we woulda been better
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So wait nah..we first three games is not group play?
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So wait nah..the hex wasn't a group?
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I think the point he is trying to make is that you have more games to recover from a bad start in a group of 6 playing home and away with 3 and a half positions to advance than a group of 4 with just one off games with two advancing positions. Yea i kinda agree, we must try to come out as strong as possible from the onset.
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duh
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so in group pla yuh doh do de same thing? come out strong get points early, qualify first and put de pressure on de odder teams?
SHIT TALK!
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dis post is mess
d hex is a group
we were in a group b4 dat
and we play in plenty gold cups, and therefore plenty group-type situations
so i eh know where dis man comin from
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Playing to come out of a group is an art in it of itself
It is a lot different than playing Head to head or playing in the hex.
Our performance in the Gold Cup was poor and we could not recover to come out of the group even though we had great expectations.
Our limited experience in group type play will hurt us.
Unless we are able to start strong and beat sweeden we will have problems because chasing the game will not help our defensive situation against paraguary or England.
Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
You're making a decent point, but you have it all back to front.
First of all, the Hex was a group. In fact, it is more of a group than the first round of the world cup
The times when we performed well in the Hex were the times when the games were almost identical to straight elimination games.
The world cup however is an elimination tournament. It is not a league, where the number of points determines your position at the end of the "season". The first round affords each team 3 games to avoid elimination.....after that it's single match elimination. The points system in the first round gives teams a little leverage to be able to play for a draw if need be, but for the most part, teams play for as many points as possible to minimize their chances of elimination. In very very very rare cases, a very tactical team may "intentionally" aim at 2nd place in a group to avoid meeting x or y....but that is an exception.
For teams like Trinidad, in the World Cup there is very little difference between group play and straight elimination. Every game for us will be like an elimination game. I don't think we're strong enough or tactically experienced enough to play for ties or position in our group.
The games that Trinidad played well in in the HEX, were do or die games which were almost identical to straight elimination games.......The argument that we're not tactically strong enough to do well in group play might be justified therefore the nature of the World Cup (all rounds) may actually work in our favour.
Our failure in the Gold Cup had nothing to do with our lack of group play experience. It had to do with our inability to play creative football without some of our key players.
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Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
if we have to start strong than the most important matches are sweden and england, not sweden and paraguay, right?
in fact, if we doh pick up points against sweden and england, it will not matter what happens with paraguay. that is why beenhakker is focussing on european friendlies. if we doh make a result against sweden and england than we out.
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Call it straight elmination or Group play or what ever
The point is
If you win your first game you are half way there
Your tactics can be safe and sound and wait for chances to score on the break
If you loose your first game you have to go forward and win the second game which will leave us open in the back and may result in easy goals.
We have to play from infront and defend the points we already have,
if we have 3 pts and we play the 2nd game a tie will be taken 2 pts away from opponent as must as gaining 1 point.
But we need the 3 pts to defend in the first place
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Playing to come out of a group is an art in it of itself
It is a lot different than playing Head to head or playing in the hex.
Our performance in the Gold Cup was poor and we could not recover to come out of the group even though we had great expectations.
Our limited experience in group type play will hurt us.
Unless we are able to start strong and beat sweeden we will have problems because chasing the game will not help our defensive situation against paraguary or England.
Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
The man making a valid point and everyone ready to cut the man throat. What the man is saying is its hard to recover from just playing 3 games than it is to recover when you know you have six games to play. Losing one game could pretty much end all hopes. As I stated before, defense is the area T&T need to focus on in order to stand anychance of advancing. you should start all game with a defensive mindset. that way you have a better chance of ending the game with the one point you start out with. ever heard the saying Defence wins tournaments?
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Playing to come out of a group is an art in it of itself
It is a lot different than playing Head to head or playing in the hex.
Our performance in the Gold Cup was poor and we could not recover to come out of the group even though we had great expectations.
Our limited experience in group type play will hurt us.
Unless we are able to start strong and beat sweeden we will have problems because chasing the game will not help our defensive situation against paraguary or England.
Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
The man making a valid point and everyone ready to cut the man throat. What the man is saying is its hard to recover from just playing 3 games than it is to recover when you know you have six games to play. Losing one game could pretty much end all hopes. As I stated before, defense is the area T&T need to focus on in order to stand anychance of advancing. you should start all game with a defensive mindset. that way you have a better chance of ending the game with the one point you start out with. ever heard the saying Defence wins tournaments?
Defence wins tournaments I concur,but equally the best defence is a great offence.
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Ever heard the saying Defence wins tournaments?
It's "Defense wins Championships"....and it's just a cliche.....not a verse from the bible.......there's no one formula for doing well in the W.C....and the teams with the best defense do NOT always win the W.C.......
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was the gold cup really that poor?
1. if colin samuel's shot didnt hit the post against hounduras then we would have won that game.
2. if marvin andrews header didnt hit the post against panama then we would have won that game.
we had one really bad game against columbia.
that would have put us at 6pts and into the quarter finals, and who knows what would have happened after that!
i firmly believe that if nos 1 and 2 took place, all of us would have been pleased with our Gold cup tourny!
ps: KND or KND2, is the gold cup proof that panama can handle group play?? what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!
ah love it!!
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was the gold cup really that poor?
1. if colin samuel's shot didnt hit the post against hounduras then we would have won that game.
2. if marvin andrews header didnt hit the post against panama then we would have won that game.
we had one really bad game against columbia.
that would have put us at 6pts and into the quarter finals, and who knows what would have happened after that!
i firmly believe that if nos 1 and 2 took place, all of us would have been pleased with our Gold cup tourny!
ps: KND or KND2, is the gold cup proof that panama can handle group play?? what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!
ah love it!!
I think the Gold Cup was really bad because we didn't play good football. (especially in the 3rd game). If with a little better luck, we had achieved the results that you spoke about, unless our standard of play improved going forward, it would have just masked how bad the Gold Cup really was.
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Ever heard the saying Defence wins tournaments?
It's "Defense wins Championships"....and it's just a cliche.....not a verse from the bible.......there's no one formula for doing well in the W.C....and the teams with the best defense do NOT always win the W.C.......
I did say it was a "saying" didnt I. who said it was gospel? try going into a game without your defenders and golaie and see what happens.
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was the gold cup really that poor?
1. if colin samuel's shot didnt hit the post against hounduras then we would have won that game.
2. if marvin andrews header didnt hit the post against panama then we would have won that game.
we had one really bad game against columbia.
that would have put us at 6pts and into the quarter finals, and who knows what would have happened after that!
i firmly believe that if nos 1 and 2 took place, all of us would have been pleased with our Gold cup tourny!
ps: KND or KND2, is the gold cup proof that panama can handle group play?? what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!
ah love it!!
I agree with this. Further, Gold Cup was basically a try-out as Beenie was working with most of the foreign-based for the first time.
Yorke was unavailable, Carlos was injured, Latas was still in retirement. Whitley get injured at some point if I remember correctly. Whole different team.
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Goal cup we looked terrible
we never played anything resembling good football
Defense is very important but not the be all and end all
Was Brazil's defense THAT great in 02?
didn't think so
That entire comment about playin without defenders and a goalie is just dumb
Try playin with JUST a goalie and defenders and see what happens
Goal in yuh ass that is what would happen
steups
dumb statement man
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I did say it was a "saying" didnt I. who said it was gospel? try going into a game without your defenders and golaie and see what happens.
You are so rediculous. geez !! You take everything so literally and you're so sensitive to anything that is said in response to you. Are you a politician ? You want a podium and a rah rah crowd to cheer everything you say ? I wasn't starting a debate with you. I was just saying that it's not as simple as "Defense wins Championships"
Everyone knows that good balance in a team is huge asset especially in modern day football......... tournament or not.
Who are you preaching to ? What you want a pat on your back ? Then go look for some snotty nose lil children in short pants and checkered shirts, and tell them that "Defense wins Championships"....then puff up your chest because they think you're a genius for uttering the one of the most common cliches that they themselves have heard a million times....happy ?
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I did say it was a "saying" didnt I. who said it was gospel? try going into a game without your defenders and golaie and see what happens.
You are so rediculous. geez !! You take everything so literally and you're so sensitive to anything that is said in response to you. Are you a politician ? You want a podium and a rah rah crowd to cheer everything you say ? I wasn't starting a debate with you. I was just saying that it's not as simple as "Defense wins Championships"
Everyone knows that good balance in a team is huge asset especially in modern day football tournament or not.
Who are you preaching to ? What you want a pat on your back ? Then go look for some snotty nose lil children in short pants and checkered shirts, and tell them that "Defense wins Championships"....then puff up your chest because they think you're a genius for uttering the one of the most common cliches that they themselves have heard a million times....happy ?
Calm down fella. who is being sensitive, me or you? You agree with me that defense is the most important aspect of soccer? yes or no? stick to the point.
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I did say it was a "saying" didnt I. who said it was gospel? try going into a game without your defenders and golaie and see what happens.
You are so rediculous. geez !! You take everything so literally and you're so sensitive to anything that is said in response to you. Are you a politician ? You want a podium and a rah rah crowd to cheer everything you say ? I wasn't starting a debate with you. I was just saying that it's not as simple as "Defense wins Championships"
Everyone knows that good balance in a team is huge asset especially in modern day football tournament or not.
Who are you preaching to ? What you want a pat on your back ? Then go look for some snotty nose lil children in short pants and checkered shirts, and tell them that "Defense wins Championships"....then puff up your chest because they think you're a genius for uttering the one of the most common cliches that they themselves have heard a million times....happy ?
calm down fella. you are falling in teh trap. you accuse me of being sensitive....and being ultar sensitive in doing so. You agree with me that defense is the most important aspect of soccer? yes or no?
You should check the definition of sensitive....I was appeasing you because you act like a girl all the time.....and no I don't agree that defense is the most important aspect of soccer. I think offense is equally if not more jmportant......tactics are also important....and many many other aspects of the game are as important as solid defensive ability.
most importantly no aspect of the game is mutually exclusive of the other.....
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I know hat he trying to say is the getting of points is essential in group play and he is correct,I think we aim to play relatively balanced under Leo and in a four team group points is essential,but some how I sensing negative vibes and ah strong but yet sublime smell of shit in this post........I could be wrong but........................ :devil:
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Goal cup we looked terrible
we never played anything resembling good football
Defense is very important but not the be all and end all
Was Brazil's defense THAT great in 02?
didn't think so
That entire comment about playin without defenders and a goalie is just dumb
Try playin with JUST a goalie and defenders and see what happens
Goal in yuh ass that is what would happen
steups
dumb statement man
that statement is just to highlight the importance of defence. Dont take it too literally
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Goal cup we looked terrible
we never played anything resembling good football
Defense is very important but not the be all and end all
Was Brazil's defense THAT great in 02?
didn't think so
That entire comment about playin without defenders and a goalie is just dumb
Try playin with JUST a goalie and defenders and see what happens
Goal in yuh ass that is what would happen
steups
dumb statement man
RF doh seem too bright.....doh study it.
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I did say it was a "saying" didnt I. who said it was gospel? try going into a game without your defenders and golaie and see what happens.
You are so rediculous. geez !! You take everything so literally and you're so sensitive to anything that is said in response to you. Are you a politician ? You want a podium and a rah rah crowd to cheer everything you say ? I wasn't starting a debate with you. I was just saying that it's not as simple as "Defense wins Championships"
Everyone knows that good balance in a team is huge asset especially in modern day football tournament or not.
Who are you preaching to ? What you want a pat on your back ? Then go look for some snotty nose lil children in short pants and checkered shirts, and tell them that "Defense wins Championships"....then puff up your chest because they think you're a genius for uttering the one of the most common cliches that they themselves have heard a million times....happy ?
calm down fella. you are falling in teh trap. you accuse me of being sensitive....and being ultar sensitive in doing so. You agree with me that defense is the most important aspect of soccer? yes or no?
You should check the definition of sensitive....I was appeasing you because you act like a girl all the time.....and no I don't agree that defense is the most important aspect of soccer.
KND started the initial topic, I made a follow up comment, sunndenly, everyone is atacking RF. And I'm th eone who is sensitive?
Regarding defence....you strat out each and every tournament game with one point. You can only lose that one point if your defence is breached. The opposing team CANNOT get more than one point if they cant beat your defence. They could have a million Thiery Henrys, they cannot win teh points if your defense plays true to form. Any coach worth his keeps will tell you that!
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Goal cup we looked terrible
we never played anything resembling good football
Defense is very important but not the be all and end all
Was Brazil's defense THAT great in 02?
didn't think so
That entire comment about playin without defenders and a goalie is just dumb
Try playin with JUST a goalie and defenders and see what happens
Goal in yuh ass that is what would happen
steups
dumb statement man
RF doh seem too bright.....doh study it.
I may very wel be brighter than you from where I sit. I bet you will agree with me that Sam is bright...simply by virtue of the fact that he thinks T&T will win teh world cup. ;D
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KND started the initial topic, I made a follow up comment, sunndenly, everyone is atacking RF. And I'm th eone who is sensitive?
Regarding defence....you strat out each and every tournament game with one point. You can only lose that one point if your defence is breached. The opposing team CANNOT get more than one point if they cant beat your defence. They could have a million Thiery Henrys, they cannot win teh points if your defense plays true to form. Any coach worth his keeps will tell you that!
Nobody was attacking you. If someone says something in response to you that is not in full support of your idea, you take it as an attack. There will always be some tongue and cheek in a contradictory response, but that is all in the spirit of argument..stop being so sensitive. It's like it's always that time of the month for you man........the same way you disagree with someone's point of view, someone will disagree with yours....stop being so paranoid.
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was the gold cup really that poor?
1. if colin samuel's shot didnt hit the post against hounduras then we would have won that game.
2. if marvin andrews header didnt hit the post against panama then we would have won that game.
we had one really bad game against columbia.
that would have put us at 6pts and into the quarter finals, and who knows what would have happened after that!
i firmly believe that if nos 1 and 2 took place, all of us would have been pleased with our Gold cup tourny!
ps: KND or KND2, is the gold cup proof that panama can handle group play?? what is good for the goose is good for the gander!!
ah love it!!
Our performance aat the Gold Cup WAS Poor Andre. No gettin around that.
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KND started the initial topic, I made a follow up comment, sunndenly, everyone is atacking RF. And I'm th eone who is sensitive?
Regarding defence....you strat out each and every tournament game with one point. You can only lose that one point if your defence is breached. The opposing team CANNOT get more than one point if they cant beat your defence. They could have a million Thiery Henrys, they cannot win teh points if your defense plays true to form. Any coach worth his keeps will tell you that!
Nobody was attacking you. If someone says something in response to you that is not in full support of your idea, you take it as an attack. There will always be some tongue and cheek in a contradictory response, but that is all in the spirit of argument..stop being so sensitive. It's like it's always that time of the month for you man........the same way you disagree with someone's point of view, someone will disagree with yours....stop being so paranoid.
I think you have it twisted...the truth is if I make a comment about T&T football that is not a popular comment, men get all riled up. One kid even started a post yesterday about banning me for the messsage board A 14 year old kid. talk about being sensitive. And by teh way, has anyone here ever agreed with my point of view? surely not you!
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I think you have it twisted...the truth is if I make a comment about T&T football that is not a popular comment, men get all riled up. One kid even started a post yesterday about banning me for the messsage board A 14 year old kid. talk about being sensitive.
ok man. I have it twisted........
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I dont understand this post, what does the gold cup group have to do with our world cup group besides the fact that its 3 games u have to play. football is football u play to win and when the situation come where a draw is good enuff u adjust. i think the fact that we have never been in a world cup before will hurt us more than our performance at a 3rd rate cup which really people dont care about. and the team playing in the world cup wont exactly be the same team running out v england will it? Concacaf just play the ass anyway, our gold cup is a joke. friggin 12 teams 3rd places goin tru, japanese and south africans takin part where else in di world u does see dat shit.
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Dred in the Gold CUp we play against shitty teams and look like mess.
We didn't have half of our side for the gold cup. So the gold cup really gives no indication of what we can produce in the cup
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exactly so men does act like they aint kno football yet, game by game, win loose draw anyting happends trinidad could play brazil 1000 times and win 1 but that 1 might come in the world cup, and i think paraguay is the hardest game for us not england and probly more important, if hopefully england beat sweden and paraguay
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As far as I see it, the Gold Cup was Beenie's first true tournament to really evaluate the talent, skill level, and mindset of the players that were available. The tournament, although we were there to win it, served as a good barometer of where we were at that time.
What we also need to remember, is that to a lesser extent in the end we realized that our group in the Gold Cup was trully the group of death. Hondurus threatened to make the finals, and lowly Panama, played like giants, and actually made the finals...and threatened to beat the US until the very end.
And lastly, under Don Leo, where we were in some tournament in June of 2005, would be nothing compared where we would be in a tournament in June 2006 --- we will improve, because we have nowhere else to go but up.
And that's my 2 cents.
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As the topic of DEFENCE come up ah had to jump in....Mih contacts close to the team was saying that the Beenieman first mission when he took over was to straighten out the defence. As a matter of fact he was saying that the defence was in a mess and the rest of the team was not gelling.
His first order of business was to play with a defensive tactic, just in order to stem the set of cheap goals we were conceding. That is why he would always just use Stern alone in the front. That is why when Stern wasn't scoring and everybody calling for his head, de Beenie didn't drop him. As a matter of fact Beenie big him up in an interview and said he had remarkable qualities as a striker...he knew that it would have been difficult for Stern to score goals under those conditions. That is also why Cornell Glenn was off the team as well...too much strikers for the strategy.
As the strategy started to work and the team began to gel, Stern's scoring touch came back. That was also in direct conjunction with Latapy and Carlos coming back into the side (the latter from injury). There was now providers for Stern and also someone to take some of the attention from the opposing defenders. That is when we get some good runs against Guatemala, Panama and Mexico.
The strategy had to change when we went to Bahrain because we HAD to score goals, hence two strikers...Stern and Jones...starting the game. Latas had a major role in organsing the team on the the field as well. As a matter of fact Beenie gave him the authority to use the energy on the field accordingly for we to get the win.
Apparently the Beenie big on training as well. He like a very intense training session, and the players who show good attitude and high intensity during training sessions are usually the ones who start the games. That is one reason why Jack is the first string keeper. When Beenie just took over the team he was heard telling one of the local trainers that the players intensity in training was very low for a national team. He said usually when training a national side he would have to tell the players to go easy, for fear of damaging their teammates, but with this bunch he have to keep shouting to them "pick it up, pick it up !". Yorke made some similiar comments before the Bahrain game as well.
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KND started the initial topic, I made a follow up comment, sunndenly, everyone is atacking RF. And I'm th eone who is sensitive?
Regarding defence....you strat out each and every tournament game with one point. You can only lose that one point if your defence is breached. The opposing team CANNOT get more than one point if they cant beat your defence. They could have a million Thiery Henrys, they cannot win teh points if your defense plays true to form. Any coach worth his keeps will tell you that!
Nobody was attacking you. If someone says something in response to you that is not in full support of your idea, you take it as an attack. There will always be some tongue and cheek in a contradictory response, but that is all in the spirit of argument..stop being so sensitive. It's like it's always that time of the month for you man........the same way you disagree with someone's point of view, someone will disagree with yours....stop being so paranoid.
I think you have it twisted...the truth is if I make a comment about T&T football that is not a popular comment, men get all riled up. One kid even started a post yesterday about banning me for the messsage board A 14 year old kid. talk about being sensitive. And by teh way, has anyone here ever agreed with my point of view? surely not you!
RF, u are coming off like an idiot....go back and read the posts and see you were the first to cry when someone responded to your posts. it was not even argumentative or derogatory and you started a hissy fit. calm down RF. not everyone is out to get you. just calm down man...you are a big man...so relax and talk football. don't use nstances in the past when men cry you down to think every response to your posts that doh agree fully is a verbal attack.
KND is staing the obvious...but I have to agree with Kicker about the elimination aspect of the WC, even during the group stages.
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As the topic of DEFENCE come up ah had to jump in....Mih contacts close to the team was saying that the Beenieman first mission when he took over was to straighten out the defence. As a matter of fact he was saying that the defence was in a mess and the rest of the team was not gelling.
His first order of business was to play with a defensive tactic, just in order to stem the set of cheap goals we were conceding.
That does not mean that defense is more important than attack.
That says two things:
1. either it means in Beenhakker's opinion defense is more important than attack
or
2. relative to our attacking play or defensive play was lacking more and hence needed more immediate attention
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As the topic of DEFENCE come up ah had to jump in....Mih contacts close to the team was saying that the Beenieman first mission when he took over was to straighten out the defence. As a matter of fact he was saying that the defence was in a mess and the rest of the team was not gelling.
His first order of business was to play with a defensive tactic, just in order to stem the set of cheap goals we were conceding.
That does not mean that defense is more important than attack.
That says two things:
1. either it means in Beenhakker's opinion defense is more important than attack
or
2. relative to our attacking play or defensive play was lacking more and hence needed more immediate attention
I don't think he was trying to say that defense is the more important than offense. I think he was just giving us the low down of how things went in the Gold Cup, from someone who was close to the team.
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As the topic of DEFENCE come up ah had to jump in....Mih contacts close to the team was saying that the Beenieman first mission when he took over was to straighten out the defence. As a matter of fact he was saying that the defence was in a mess and the rest of the team was not gelling.
His first order of business was to play with a defensive tactic, just in order to stem the set of cheap goals we were conceding.
That does not mean that defense is more important than attack.
That says two things:
1. either it means in Beenhakker's opinion defense is more important than attack
or
2. relative to our attacking play or defensive play was lacking more and hence needed more immediate attention
I don't think he was trying to say that defense is the more important than offense. I think he was just giving us the low down of how things went in the Gold Cup, from someone who was close to the team.
Seen
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OUR PERFORMANCE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF:
1.DWIGHT WAS DERE
2.LATAS WAS DERE
TWO VERY IMPORTANT FACTORS
TYHAT GOLD CUP WAS JUST AN EXPERIMENTATION OF OUR NON-REGULAR PLAYERS TO GET A CHANCE TO SHOW THAT THEY DESERVED TO BE IN THE STARTING LINE UP
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KND's reasoning about the approach to the first round is good.
The problem is the title of the thread.
The Gold Cup was an experimental tournament for us. The team was not our best and appeared disjointed at times.
I do agree that our team defense was our achilles heel. So far the team has been doing a better job of increasing the pressure on teams and we still have some ways to go improving that aspect of our game.
Having said that, I would vehemently agree with a complete defensive approach to the games. Jamaica tried that and got nowhere. In fact all of the African teams that got anywhere, plus S. Korea, did not use this approach. What we need is discipline, a la the US approach. We need to attack and defend as a team.
The disciplined team approach is Beenie's best lesson to our team.
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Playing to come out of a group is an art in it of itself
It is a lot different than playing Head to head or playing in the hex.
Our performance in the Gold Cup was poor and we could not recover to come out of the group even though we had great expectations.
Our limited experience in group type play will hurt us.
Unless we are able to start strong and beat sweeden we will have problems because chasing the game will not help our defensive situation against paraguary or England.
Our Entire focus must be to find a way to pick up points against Sweeden and paraguary.
for group play you have to play from in front
We cannot come on strong like we did in the Hex
if we dont start strong it will be impossible to recover.
:bs: :puking: :yapping: :banginghead:...these pretty much sum-up my thoughts on this thread
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this thread is
B S
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