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Author Topic: See what we missing?  (Read 10784 times)

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Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2010, 11:50:08 AM »
i believe that is an excellent analysis of it  :beermug:

I really would like to see it changed, and it must start with indo-Trini yutes being encouraged to play more football.  Active encouragement by coaches, family, friends etc... and "passive" encouragement by seeing more footballers of Indo-Trini... or just Indian descent, period.  Needless to say the lack of role models makes the problem self-fulfilling and unlikely to change on account of just that one factor.  We therefore need to do more to actively encourage the yutes.

For me the issue has personal resonance... I had a pardna in school who wasn't anything special, but the man was nice on de field, pace, touch, vision.  All without one ounce ah formalized instruction.  By Form Four the man flamed out both on the field and off it, as his mother died and he started drinking.  I'm not trying to suggest that his experience is typical among other would be Indo-Trini footballers, but the same problem that other yutes, Afro- and Indo-Trini... when you dealing with the (relatively) low numbers of Indo-Trinis participating in the sport to begin with, those problems make it that much more difficult for Indo-Trinis to break into the national footballing spotlight.

some great points. the grassroots programs need to be started within the communities and greater participation is needed of course. it will encourage more scouts to come out and see the talent. what would be interesting is to see how much programs and leagues are already in the areas where there is a large concentration of indo trinis.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2010, 03:58:10 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation in professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 08:41:39 PM by Jah Gol »

Offline weary1969

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2010, 04:30:26 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

LOUDDDDDDD STEUPSSSSSSSSS

Sat go say dey busy studyin 2 get scholarship and sport not impt until d gov't give a lil million to players then it go b discrimination.
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Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2010, 07:51:11 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2010, 09:06:27 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2010, 10:22:46 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 10:31:00 PM by Controversial »

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2010, 10:47:50 AM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2010, 12:08:38 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?





Offline Jah Gol

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2010, 12:46:45 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?

I can ask the same of you. It so subjective it eh funny. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't take the word of a few individuals to discount the overwhelming evidence in numerous sports.

Offline Bakes

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2010, 02:22:07 PM »
are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?






Jah Gol's point is the same point I made earlier... even if we are to assume the individuals are honest about the discrimination they faced, you can't take these isolated examples and offer them as proof of systematic discrimination.  The only way such isolated discrimination would have any impact on the national pool is if it happens far enough along in the selection process... like final cuts.  Otherwise one man getting blank in Mayaro, ah next one in Talparo and another in Penal on account of their race don't equal sytematic discrimination.

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2010, 02:28:54 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?

I can ask the same of you. It so subjective it eh funny. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't take the word of a few individuals to discount the overwhelming evidence in numerous sports.

your comprehension is poor my friend, where did i state i thought this was across the board? I said I am going by people who have spoken to me, earlier i stated i never said this was the vast majority. so what the hell are you talking about, you are trying to down cry my statement as if I'm talking garbage.

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2010, 02:35:53 PM »
are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?






Jah Gol's point is the same point I made earlier... even if we are to assume the individuals are honest about the discrimination they faced, you can't take these isolated examples and offer them as proof of systematic discrimination.  The only way such isolated discrimination would have any impact on the national pool is if it happens far enough along in the selection process... like final cuts.  Otherwise one man getting blank in Mayaro, ah next one in Talparo and another in Penal on account of their race don't equal sytematic discrimination.

not really, jah gol stated in his opening sentence, " Anecdotal accounts from individuals" as if my statements were untrustworthy. Instead he should have asked or even stated, these may be isolated incidents that you have encountered from individual experiences. However he didn't say that, he came right out and discredited what I heard from individuals and myself.

I agree with you that it doesn't show systemic discrimination because of a few conversations I had but it showed to me that it exists and that it existed on different levels of tt football. Is it systemic, I don't think so, I agree with you.

The approach at which jah gol came at me was disrespectful.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 02:39:27 PM by Controversial »

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2010, 02:38:01 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?

I can ask the same of you. It so subjective it eh funny. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't take the word of a few individuals to discount the overwhelming evidence in numerous sports.

except the fact you were not there to hear the stories and you have none to present, so how can you be in the position to ask me anything, after your opening sentence was aimed at discrediting me before you even heard the story to begin with.

Offline Bakes

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2010, 02:41:31 PM »
not really, jah gol stated in his opening sentence, " Anecdotal accounts from individuals" as if my statements were untrustworthy. Instead he should have asked or even stated, these may be isolated incidents that you have encountered from individual experiences. However he didn't say that, he came right out and discredited what I heard from individuals and myself.

I agree with you that it doesn't show systemic discrimination because of a few conversations I had but it showed to me that it exists and that it existed on different levels of tt football. Is it systemic, I don't think so, I agree with you.

The approach at which jah gol came at was disrespectful.

I read your response last night and decided to leave it alone until Jah Gol could respond.  I read it again today and I don't know where you coming from which this "discrediting" or "untrustworthy" talk.  Anecdotal means there's no evidence to back it up only word of mouth.  It doesn't mean that the information isn't accurate, just that it isn't independently verifiable.  It is the subjective report of the person offering the story.

His point is clear if you read the words in the context of the entire sentence

Quote
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport

He doesn't have to further state that he was criticizing their weight because they are isolated... because that is implicit from the fact that he said you can't take the experiences of these individuals as being representative of systematic oppression.  I'm not sure what's so disrespectful about what he said... from my observation, that's not even his style.  So again, I'm not sure why you interpreted it that way.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?

I can ask the same of you. It so subjective it eh funny. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't take the word of a few individuals to discount the overwhelming evidence in numerous sports.

your comprehension is poor my friend, where did i state i thought this was across the board? I said I am going by people who have spoken to me, earlier i stated i never said this was the vast majority. so what the hell are you talking about, you are trying to down cry my statement as if I'm talking garbage.
There is nothing wrong with my comprehension. Don't try to pull out of what you said . You asserted that discrimination was part of the reason why East Indians do not play take up football as a profession .

the indo-trini community in trinidad do play football, i know plenty of them myself, however many have told me stories of discrimination and alienation

I posited that similar patterns of disparity in rates participation exist in several 'professional' sports in T&T and at every level of organised football in T&T. If we use your rationale it means that there is discrimination at u14 ,u16 InterCol, minor league etc. of football in T&T.

I just don't want you to try skew the issue. The other day I traveled in a maxi driven by a Chinese man. It was  real strange. Chinese people don't normally choose that profession just like as I said with the exception of cricket, Indo-Trinis do not choose a career in professional sports. I'm not trying to be disrespectful I just don't like when people cry wolf willy-nilly.

Offline Controversial

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Re: See what we missing?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2010, 04:00:53 PM »
Apart from cricket Indo participation is professional sport is limited.Just look at the Olympic delegation we send. Watch rugby, hockey , netball, volleyball , Athletics etc. You see better participation in minority sports like Triathlon events and martial arts. We don't have a discrimination problem we have a participation problem.

you are mostly right but tell that to the individuals i spoke to, they would tell you differently.
Anecdotal accounts from individuals you spoke to do not signify a systematic attempt to exclude persons of a certain ethnic group from participating in sport. If you believe what those people say then it means all the teams in the Pro League , Super League and even the Secondary School football league are discriminating on race. That's unfathomable. Ultimately its unfortunate that we do not have full participation in sport. We are missing out on a larger more talented player pool but let us never lose sight of the reason why.

i highly doubt you can label it as untrustworthy accounts from individuals unless you meet them yourself, unless you are bringing into question my credibility. I have no ambitions to lie or push a controversial topic of this nature. In fact i wish it didn't exist in tt, I am merely reiterating statements made by players who were sincere in their comments. They never came out willingly and spoke about it but eventually stated the reasons they believed were at the root. neither am I saying this is vast majority of what occurs, I am basing it on footballers who I have spoken to, who have voiced their experiences.

I do agree that more participation is needed, as I also agreed with bake and shark and his suggestions. But then you must also examine the leagues and the head coaches and see if there is a substantial indo trini presence in management and coaches. which was a valid point which bake and shark brought up in his previous post.
 
Do you care to elaborate on their experiences ?

are you the judge of discrimination? or do you want to pull out abstract criticisms from the example I post?

I can ask the same of you. It so subjective it eh funny. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't take the word of a few individuals to discount the overwhelming evidence in numerous sports.

your comprehension is poor my friend, where did i state i thought this was across the board? I said I am going by people who have spoken to me, earlier i stated i never said this was the vast majority. so what the hell are you talking about, you are trying to down cry my statement as if I'm talking garbage.
There is nothing wrong with my comprehension. Don't try to pull out of what you said . You asserted that discrimination was part of the reason why East Indians do not play take up football as a profession .

the indo-trini community in trinidad do play football, i know plenty of them myself, however many have told me stories of discrimination and alienation

I posited that similar patterns of disparity in rates participation exist in several 'professional' sports in T&T and at every level of organised football in T&T. If we use your rationale it means that there is discrimination at u14 ,u16 InterCol, minor league etc. of football in T&T.

I just don't want you to try skew the issue. The other day I traveled in a maxi driven by a Chinese man. It was  real strange. Chinese people don't normally choose that profession just like as I said with the exception of cricket, Indo-Trinis do not choose a career in professional sports. I'm not trying to be disrespectful I just don't like when people cry wolf willy-nilly.

once again your comprehension is brought into question once more. Don't get over exuberant over  misinterpretation by yourself. I pointed out what many have said to me, where did I endorse systemic discrimination at all levels? Please refer to that in my previous posts before you accuse me of denial.

I agree participation rates are lower than what they should be, however I notice your avoidance of your disrespect towards me in your initial posts, who is the one really in denial or avoiding what was said before? not I sah.

Just because I made reference to stories told to me, doesnt mean I am propagating systemic discrimination at all levels of tt football and I repeated it once again for you to read, you need to show me proof of me referring to that or endorsing it, otherwise your blowing hot air.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 04:02:34 PM by Controversial »

 

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