May 23, 2024, 04:50:22 AM

Author Topic: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?  (Read 3293 times)

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Offline Touches

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Forumites,

I was reading over Lower St Johns post about the pro league and the promotion of players. I do not believe a league has to market a player for them to become successful but the establishment of a league does put a player in the shop window.

Also many of us have stated that a good local league and the use of locals is what is needed for a successful team.

Also many experts...coaches and armchair critics alike state that our talent pool and population is too small to provide adequate players.

After putting some thought into it I would like some forumites opinions and I want Lower St John, Jai John and Alberta Trini in particular to put in their two cents.

What do you think of Australia's Football side and their success or lackthereof.

They have only now started a Professional league yet look at the number of quality players they have at their disposal. How do you think this was done? Is it they are that talented or did they export their talent at a young age, let the clubs mould the players and they are now reaping the benefits.

Is it the past English connection gives them an edge?

Why do they consistently make it to Junior World Cups and then when its the Seniors turn not overcome the 5th place S.American team?....(however this has changed since  2006)

Does the WC qualifying route historically not have them prepared to make the next step and go against the big guns...and if they were in a more competitive zone they would have been a powerhouse? (NB Australia has now moved to Asia)

Is it because they have a larger population pool and can churn out more players?

Is it because the country is well off financially and thus they have the money to put proper sports programmes in place?

Right now Australia can match and beat most teams in the world in Football......the Soca Warriors included

How did Australia get all these players abroad in these clubs playing in a jokey WCQ group and never making it to a WC pre 2006?

Watch the firepower they have playing abroad

Here is their Germany 2006 Squad

No.    Pos.    Player    DoB/Age    Caps    Club


1    GK    Mark Schwarzer    6 October 1972    37    England Middlesbrough
2    DF    Lucas Neill    9 March 1978    22    England Blackburn Rovers
3    DF    Craig Moore    12 December 1975    32    England Newcastle United
4    MF    Tim Cahill    6 December 1979    14    England Everton
5    MF    Jason Čulina    5 August 1980    11    Netherlands PSV
6    DF    Tony Popović    4 July 1973    56    England Crystal Palace [53]
7    MF    Brett Emerton    22 February 1979    50    England Blackburn Rovers
8    MF    Josip Skoko    10 December 1975    45    England Wigan Athletic [54]
9    FW    Mark Viduka (c)    9 October 1975    33    England Middlesbrough
10    FW    Harry Kewell    22 September 1978    20    England Liverpool
11    MF    Stan Lazaridis    16 August 1972    68    England Birmingham [55]
12    GK    Ante Čović    13 June 1975    1    Sweden Hammarby
13    MF    Vince Grella    5 October 1979    18    Italy Parma
14    MF    Scott Chipperfield    30 December 1975    44    Switzerland Basel
15    FW    John Aloisi    5 February 1976    40    Spain Alavés
16    DF    Michael Beauchamp    8 March 1981    1    AustraliaCentral Coast Mariners [56]
17    FW    Archie Thompson    23 October 1978    17    Australia Melbourne Victory [57]
18    GK    Željko Kalac    16 December 1972    53    Italy A.C.Milan
19    FW    Joshua Kennedy    20 August 1982    0    Germany Dynamo Dresden [58]
20    MF    Luke Wilkshire    2 October 1981    7    England Bristol City
21    MF    Mile Sterjovski    27 May 1979    19    Switzerland Basel
22    DF    Mark Milligan    4 August 1985    0    Australia Sydney FC
23    MF    Mark Bresciano    11 February 1980    22    Italy Parma

Now here are other foreign based players at their disposal

Goalkeepers

GK    Ante Čović */***/****    June 13, 1975    1    0    Sweden Hammarby IF
GK    Michael Petkovic *    July 16, 1976    4    0    Turkey Sivasspor

Defenders
No.    Pos.    Player    DoB/Age    Caps    Goals    Club

DF    Scott Chipperfield ***/****    December 30, 1975    52    11    Switzerland FC Basel
DF    Michael Thwaite *    May 2, 1983    2    0    Poland Wisła Kraków
DF    Ljubo Milicevic ***    February 13, 1981    6    0    Switzerland BSC Young Boys
DF    Michael Beauchamp */***/****    March 8, 1981    5    0    Germany 1. FC Nürnberg
DF    Patrick Kisnorbo ***    March 24, 1981    7    0    England Leicester City
DF    Jonathan McKain */***    September 21, 1982    12    0    Romania FCU Politehnica Timişoara

Midfielders
No.    Pos.    Player    DoB/Age    Caps    Goals    Club

MF    Luke Wilkshire */***    October 2, 1981    12    0    Netherlands FC Twente
MF    Ahmad Elrich */***    May 30, 1981    17    5    England Fulham F.C.
MF    Mark Bresciano ****    February 11, 1980    30    8    Italy U.S. Cittŕ di Palermo
MF    Mile Sterjovski ***/****    May 27, 1979    27    4    Switzerland FC Basel
MF    Nick Ward */***    March 24, 1972    0    0    England QPR
MF    Carl Valeri *    August 14, 1984    0    0    Italy Grosseto
MF    Jacob Burns ***    January 21, 1978    2    0    Poland Wisła Kraków

Strikers
No.    Pos.    Player    DoB/Age    Caps    Goals    Club
FW    Brett Holman */***    March 27, 1984    2    0    Netherlands NEC Nijmegen
FW    Scott McDonald */***    August 21, 1983    2    0    Scotland Motherwell F.C.
FW    Ryan Griffiths ***    August 10, 1981    1    0    Romania Rapid Bucureşti


Notable former players

    * Stan Lazaridis
    * Tony Vidmar
    * Paul Okon
    * Ned Zelić
    * Mark Bosnich
    * Frank Farina
    * Graham Arnold
    * Aurelio Vidmar

   

    * Robbie Slater
    * Damian Mori
    * Paul Trimboli
    * Alex Tobin
    * Paul Wade
    * Charlie Yankos
    * David Mitchell
    * Mike Petersen

   

    * Ray Baartz
    * Alan Davidson
    * Milan Ivanović
    * Johnny Warren
    * Harry Williams
    * Peter Wilson
    * Manfred Schaefer
    * Joe Marston

Player drain to other countries

One frustrating fact for the Socceroos is that some promising players end up playing for other nations. As many Australians have roots in Europe and qualify for European passports, they are eligible to play for non-Australian national teams. Australian-born players who have chosen other national teams are:

    * Joey Didulica - Croatia
    * Tony Dorigo - England
    * Saša Ilić - Serbia and Montenegro
    * Anthony Šerić - Croatia
    * Josip Šimunić - Croatia

As of October 2006, two of the above players remain active in international football; Šerić and Šimunić, for Croatia.

The following players were eligible to play for Australia but chose other national teams:

    * Christian Vieri - Italy. Vieri was born in Bologna, but partly raised in Australia, and was eligible for both.
    * Craig Johnston - England. Johnston was born in South Africa to Australian parents and grew up in Australia. He played for England at the Under-21 level, but did not earn a senior cap despite a callup late in his career.
    * Ivan Ergić - Serbia and Montenegro. Born in Croatia, raised in Australia.
    * Georgios Samaras - Greece. His father was born in Australia. "My father was born here in Melbourne … I had the opportunity to do that (play for Australia), but I preferred Greece," he said. "It was a possibility and I was close to doing it." [31]

As of October 2006, Ivan Ergić remains active in international football, playing for the newly-formed Serbian football team.


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Offline Remie

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2006, 04:38:21 PM »
I think it is the mentality of an Australian footballer that sets them aside from other countries like football. In the last 10 or so years the only really top class technically gifted players that they have produced are Kewell and Viduka. We have produced Yorke and Latapy.

But when you start to look at the other players like Cahill and Emerton, imagine the amount of hard work those guys put in. And its not just the players in the squad that have that mentality, their league is probably full of players with that hard working attitude.The amount of drive, determination and dedication they put into their football can now be seen by the results. I just dont believe the mentality of T&T football is like that.

Admitedly they have a population 20 times the size of ours, but they are a great example of what can be done with the right attitude. The drive, determination and dedication.

Offline PantherX

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2006, 04:57:51 PM »
Australia does have excellent sports infrastructure but they have benefitted from immigration as well with large numbers of Croats and Italians (among many others) settling there.

A large number of their players are eligible to play for other nations...actually 2 members ot the Croatian team are Aussie citizens.

Offline Tenorsaw

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2006, 05:07:16 PM »
Australia has, in my opinion, always had a solid player pool. I thnk that their coaching is lagging behind, hence the reason why they kept losing the playoff with the fifth-placed Conmebol team.  In my book, Kewell (when healthy), Schwarzer, Cahill, Bresciano, and Aloisi are capable of playing on many other good national teams.  If you ask me, we are some ways behind them, in terms of producing players.  Their coaching needs to catch up to speed though, because Australian players do not have the confidence in their local coaches, and they always voice this.

Offline palos

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 05:35:18 PM »
Australia is a sporting nation.  Sport is NOT viewed as recreation by the government but rather some thing as part of the holistic development of Australians in general as well as a vehicle for pride and nationalism in Australia.

Not many nations can boast of the same.
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Offline Socafan

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2006, 09:18:47 PM »
Exactly...Palos hit de nail on de head. The early leaders of the nation, and this includes the current crop of Government because our nation is still very young, seem to have missed the boat entirely when it comes to National Pride, sport, and it's importance in Nation Building. International Sport has replaced wars (for the most part). Nothing builds National Pride more than war between nations or Sport.

For our Local league to improve, with our Cultural Heritage, there MUST be massive financial backing for things such as, player development, talent scouting, SPORT PSYCHOLOGY (very important for us), infrastructure and all the attendant pre-requisites of successful Sport. Our league cannot, just like that, develop into what we want without money, and the only entity in OUR country that will have the ability and willingness to fund it properly is Government....not direct funding for player salaries and such, this must remain the domain of the private enterprise (Teams), but nurturing the environment so that private enterprise can thrive. Australia has done an excellent job of this and we have done a piss poor job of it. We still clueless, with no end in sight.

Australia has done well IN SPITE OF a Cultural bias to sports other than Football. Rugby is really their sport (their version anyway), not to mention Cricket, but really, competing in sport on the whole is so ingrained into that Nation's psyche, that their recent serious advents into Football is quickly producing good players and teams. They are doing it right. If Football was their National pastime I believe they would be right up there, like Cricket and Rugby. Are they "punching above their weight"? Could be.. a little..but then they working it so they are getting the results they deserve.

With all that said, despite our complaints, it is obvious that WE, TNT, are punching WAAAAAAYYY above our weight in Football, and even some other Sports, and have been doing so for some decades. What was our population in the '70's, 500,000!? ; and they had to tief we to keep we out de Worldcup back then? 1989 again we come within a hhuummmp again, and really should have been in like Flynn. Now finally 2006 with still only 1.2 million people; and we ourselves could even argue that football just may not be our national sport. Is population size really that important? How come such a small nation always buzzing round and having at times some spectacular success on an International Level (Crawford comes to mind)? Where is Australia's 100m winner? Isn't the 100m the World's premier Track event? Where is China's or India's for that matter. IS POPULATION SIZE REALLY THAT IMPORTANT!!? Could it be that Culture and environment is really what makes a man, and by extension, his achievement in Sport?

What is needed before a CONSISTENTLY successful team is truly a successful local league. For a successful local league the pre-requisite must be youth, player, and administrative development. For this to happen, our local environment must change to nurture and foster development. It takes money and organization. Football in TNT, any Sport for that matter, needs to move from mere leisure, to include connotations of personal and National Pride and achievement, not to mention a way to make a good living.The catalyst for this in our particular Culture, in our young Nation,  as in Australia's, could only be Government. What the EF does the Ministry of Sport, Culture and Youth Affairs really do? By their name, this is right up their Alley.

And people like Jack hah to go. He good fuh the short run, dah is how he does operate. He stifling development. The TTFF is a broken organization in many ways. They cyar nurture nothing.

NOTE : Ah say government must NURTURE the environment eh, NOT PAY MAN SALARY. Private enterprise must take care of that.
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Offline trinbago

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2006, 09:44:22 PM »
Excellent discussion all arouind!!

So here is the question: Why are we Trini's like that? why ???  are we programmed that way or we just born without it...? Why can't we pursue sports like other nations with the level of determination to see it succeed???  A governement should not have to sanction determination from its people....
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Offline fatman

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 05:24:08 AM »
 PALOS IS CORRECT IN HIS ASSESSMENT OF AUSTRALIA sport is more than a national pastime it is national policy they fully understand what a country can get out of sport, from saving their health system money, to international glory .as it stands now we like sport ,we play sport, but we do not fully comprehend what can be gained from it.

Offline superoli

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2006, 05:37:50 AM »
Australian devotes large resources to sport and its facitlities and their youth development is second to none. I lived there for 5 months and the facilties are world class, imagine football is a fifth sport after Cricket, Rugby league, Rugby Union and Australian rules football yet the pitches are top notch and the youth programs are world class. Also they have this belief that they should win everything and losing is not an option. Before the WC I kept telling people that Australia would do well in the world cup, remember they lost to the winners by 1 goal (a controversial penalty).
The Australian Football federation is run by professionals and run like a business not a half ass jokey organization for filling your own pockets.
Untill Trinidad revamps the TTFF and starts a serious youth program we will be sentenced to years of talking on this forum about what could have and should have been.

in fact if you all have any sense


Superoli for President of TTFF
I have one promise............A professional organization for professional players
Superoli for President of TTFF
I have one promise...........
A professional organization for professional players

Offline Bourbon

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 05:45:41 AM »
Excellent discussion all arouind!!

So here is the question: Why are we Trini's like that? why ???  are we programmed that way or we just born without it...? Why can't we pursue sports like other nations with the level of determination to see it succeed???  A governement should not have to sanction determination from its people....

Answer: Lack of general seriousness all round. Really and truly the laid back attitude that a lot of us have is what makes us loveable.....but keeps us underachieving at the same time. It affects all aspects of our life not just sports. Even if a youth system is non existant, how many youths take it upon themselves to work hard individually? How many seniors attempt to hone the raw talent into something productive? For example, most teams in the world convert many of the free kicks they get around the 18 as almost second nature. That did not come from luck and chance. From a tender age, footballers practice hitting those from that range, not just in a structured coaching environment, but on their own. The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary. We need to realise that.
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Offline Observer

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2006, 10:09:08 AM »
Touches Australia had a pro league / semi pro for years since 1977. It was however, fragmented and largely ethnic based for example Melbourne Knights were Melbourne Croatia. In the arly 90's the made clubs drop the ethnic name. Anyway these clubs along with the Sports Institute (Academy) have been producing players for years. Cristian Vieri came out of that program and left for Italy at 15 yrs old. I believe his brother plays for Australia
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Offline dinho

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2006, 11:18:52 AM »
dem australians is a different die hard breed too eh.. in most sports they achieve success through hard work rather than skill... a look down the list of aussie players posted there will show 95% are not skillful players, moreless tireless work horses which will give 110% everyday...

To quote a statement from the cricket matchcast on cricinfo from the ICC champions trophy final:

"John Arlott had written about it in 1948 at the end of a successful tour of England by Don Bradman's men. ""Australianism," wrote Arlott, "means single-minded determination to win - to win within the laws but, if necessary, to the last limit within them. It means where the 'impossible' is within the realm of what the human body can do, there are Australians who believe that they can do it - and who have succeeded often enough to make us wonder if anything is impossible to them. It means they have never lost a match - particularly a Test match - until the last run is scored or their last wicket down."

But in a kinda way is a different coast knowing that from a nation of 1.2 million, we are so skilled that we could be laid back, lazy, playing sports for fun and still churn out world class athletes without 10% of the effort other countries put into their infrastructure and development...  almost like we walk off the beach onto a world cup or olympics, no sweat..

how many countries can bost of a Lara, Yorke, Ato, Bovell and Soca Warriors from such a small pool to pluck from? Does that not give an even great sense of pride and put a big underline on our achievements as a nation?

         

Offline palos

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2006, 11:25:24 AM »
how many countries can bost of a Lara, Yorke, Ato, Bovell and Soca Warriors from such a small pool to pluck from? Does that not give an even great sense of pride and put a big underline on our achievements as a nation?

Jamaica comes to mind.

However, you rightly say that their achievements bring pride to the Nation but did the Nation REALLY achieve it?  Ah mean.....All dem people you call dey save Lara hone their skills OUTSIDE of T&T.  This is not to overlook the contribution of the people at home who helped them to achieve their notoriety, but I say their achievements were gained IN SPITE OF the challenges they faced locally.  Could you imagine how many more Lara's, Yorke's, Latapy's, Ato's & Soca Warriors their could have been if we had governments that invested in sport as a tool for Nation Building?  Governments that were proactive where sports are concerned instead of reactive?
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Offline dinho

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2006, 11:38:06 AM »
all of the world's top athletes hone and perfect their skills outside in the best leagues.. we still have to take pips..

George Weah is still Liberia's son of the soil, for a man who had to buy boots and gears for his side, who could face more challenges than him??
         

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2006, 11:57:56 AM »
dem Aussies are able to produce an amazing amount of athletes compared to their population base.
an Jamaica has produced a larger amount of Olympic athletes compared to the rest of the Caribbean.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 12:01:35 PM by RedHowler »
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Offline Bourbon

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Re: Australia...talent, proper infrastructure or punching above their weight?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2006, 06:32:56 AM »
Quote
an Jamaica has produced a larger amount of Olympic athletes compared to the rest of the Caribbean.

I more feel that it ingrained in the jamacian psyche that when yuh hear a gunshot.....run as fast as yuh could.
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