What is the Beef with British Born Players?

[Carib-Briton]

My parents are not trini so doh kill me.
But after small magicans post on the JA Coach (which was slightly funny)
what is the beef you guys doh like us British Born Peeps? 
or is a joke?

[JDB]

I feel like giving yuh a steups but I'll try to explain.

First off Big magic's post was REAL FUNNY, not just a bit.

Secondly, his use fo the Reggaebrits was a joke, generally nobody has anything against british born people or people from any other country (generally).

The reggae brits situation is one where Jamaica went and got a lot of players who were English to reperesent Jamaica and qualify for a WC.

Some of these players identified with their JA heritage, otheres I am sure did not, a few never even played for them after the WC.

So right now there is always the debate about:
where a player's loyalty really is when he is "imported"
whether loyalty is even an issue when it comes to football
how does importation affect the development of local born players

Because they have had much more migration than us and have used many more imports we does pound them and give them talk because more of our players are locally developed.

Also even in JA there are people who would rather see a young Jamaican than an Englishman who was not good enough for England.

[Carib-Briton]

Riggghttt. I just see it comes up alot that its not even funny no more. ok I take the point.
By the Black People born in Britain are Black British Caribbean or Black British African. not English

[JDB]

Riggghttt. I just see it comes up alot that its not even funny no more.

Not funny to you.

If I wrote a joke about a punjab and a pakistani a man from Egypt might not get it but it does not make it any less funny.

All of us who read the post and understood where Magician was coming from thought it was hilarious.

By the Black People born in Britain are Black British Caribbean or Black British African. not English

As for this part you miss the point by a good bit.

[Carib-Briton]

Not funny to you.

If I wrote a joke about a punjab and a pakistani a man from Egypt might not get it but it does not make it any less funny.

I was talking about the British Born Ting come up in various threads previously. Not the joke Generally.
When something comes up again & again doesnt it become boring?

All of us who read the post and understood where Magician was coming from thought it was hilarious.

Good for you but just because one finds something funny everyone must find it hilarious I said slightly funny.

As for this part you miss the point by a good bit.

Didnt miss the point atall. I just telling you the correct terms. ok? you could of said homegrown instead of forgien born?

[Jahyouth]

Futbol, this is a cultural thing.  You just may never get it.  Are your parents West Indian?  And if so, how much of the culture have they imparted on you and your siblings in your everyday lives?

There is nothing "wrong" with foreign-born players, just that people are right to question their real motives and where their loyalties lie.  You may want to revisit the threads on Bobby Zamora versus J'Lloyd Samuel when you get a chance to see what I am talking about.

[JDB]

I was talking about the British Born Ting come up in various threads previously. Not the joke Generally.
When something comes up again & again doesnt it become boring?

This will always be a matter of taste. You are sensitive about it being born in Britain and so enough is too much. Many other forumites are not and they are less likely to find it tiresome.

Didnt miss the point atall. I just telling you the correct terms. ok? you could of said homegrown instead of forgien born?

Well the point was that the "local born" Jamaicans do not see "foreign born" players as being Caribbean, they see them as being English i.e. not really Jamaican. I used Englsihman to highlight the difference between the two not as a hard and fast definition of any social group.

When the man on the street is griping he is not going to say that a local born lost out to a "foreign born black british caribbean", he will say "a Englishman (or maybe a f***ing English)

[warmonga]

My parents are not trini so doh kill me.
But after small magicans post on the JA Coach (which was slightly funny)
what is the beef you guys doh like us British Born Peeps? 
or is a joke?

I will tell yu since I do not see it like many other Trini's..Jamaicans a proud no matter what part of de world dey born to represent there country of Jamaica while Trinidadians a f**ked up seriously dem cya wait to change the citizenship when dem cum a fareign..Once dem cum a fareign dem forget all about TNT..I have many cousin of Trini parentage who was born Innah de U.S and they completely failed to Reconise they are Trini's.. On my Mudda side everyone who was born a fareign still says dat they are Jamaicans even though dey neva even been to Jamaica..Look at the players dat TNT football staff is suckin there dicks to cum aboard one of dem was actually born in Trinidad and he told dem f**k off..sum Trini's are simply Mad with Jamaican fareign born because they gave strength to de Jamaican National football team and a always willing to represent There country..
Look at that one guy who wants to represent TNT ..he is about 30+ in age and just found out dat his mudda is a Trini..do you blame him?.I dont I blame he flicking mudda....Will dat ever happen to a yardie hell flickin no!!!!!!!! He mudda go tell him inside a she belly trus mi!!!!!!!!!!!
Big up man like Birchall he didnt even think twice to represent TNT he was ready from de first day he was asked..
warmonga..
"de difference between war and anyother person is I dont care who it hurts I sey it as I see it.."
Big Up all fareign Born who willing to accept there roots"

[truetrini]

wey you come from futbol?  Listen....in T&T  we have cars dat are foreign used.  In England allyuh does refer to people as foreigners.

If yuh born outside ah T&T yuh foreign born..yuh feel is only englishborn people we refer to as foreign born?

Stop it. doh get yuh knickers in a know aight?

Look at Birchall and think about hios situtaion before yuh bump yuh gums anymore.

Those English born Queen respecting chappies suddenly decided that they are of aTrini heritage now dat we going do de world cup.

when we were courting dem dey didnt have time fuh we.

some even jes find out dat de y mum's have trini passports.

yuh comprende now..snce yuh name is futbol and thought ah should add ah little espanyol.

BESIDES A MORE APPROPRIATE QUESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN:  "WHAT'S THE STEAK AND KIDNEY PIE WITH BRITISH BORN PLAYERS?

[Carib-Briton]

Futbol, this is a cultural thing.  You just may never get it.  Are your parents West Indian?  And if so, how much of the culture have they imparted on you and your siblings in your everyday lives?

There is nothing "wrong" with foreign-born players, just that people are right to question their real motives and where their loyalties lie.  You may want to revisit the threads on Bobby Zamora versus J'Lloyd Samuel when you get a chance to see what I am talking about.

Yes, My Parents are West Indian. I just wanted to find out thats all but its been taken a bit out of context.
Yes they have impacted alot of West Indian Culture on such not just parents aunties uncles etc etc.

The Bobby Zee and Samuel threads is what i was refering to.

[JDB]

Warmonga you are wrong if you believe that the players representing Jamaica are doing so because they have a stronger identification with their Jamaican roots.

I will agree that the JA Diaspora is much more connected to things Jamaican than Trinidad and Tobago's but that has little to do with the guys that choose to represent JA.

In footballing terms these guys are English until is suits them to be otherwise. Being Jamaican doesn't help them get accepted at a club and it does not help them progress.

Also for all the talk about "proud to be a Jamaican" if they could make a bigger side they will.

So Barnes could not have played for JA.
RF say that Sol Campbell and four other England players are Jamaican (Me ent know where he get them from). Why did they choose England and not Jamaica?
Even Clinton Morrison choose Ireland over JA

So come better than that. Yes Jamaicans are a proud people with a vibrant international community but that is not why the Reggaebrits play for Jamaica.

They play because they cannot make bigger sides.

[Jahyouth]

My parents are not trini so doh kill me.
But after small magicans post on the JA Coach (which was slightly funny)
what is the beef you guys doh like us British Born Peeps? 
or is a joke?

I will tell yu since I do not see it like many other Trini's..Jamaicans a proud no matter what part of de world dey born to represent there country of Jamaica while Trinidadians a f**ked up seriously dem cya wait to change the citizenship when dem cum a fareign..Once dem cum a fareign dem forget all about TNT..I have many cousin of Trini parentage who was born Innah de U.S and they completely failed to Reconise they are Trini's.. On my Mudda side everyone who was born a fareign still says dat they are Jamaicans even though dey neva even been to Jamaica..Look at the players dat TNT football staff is suckin there dicks to cum aboard one of dem was actually born in Trinidad and he told dem f**k off..sum Trini's are simply Mad with Jamaican fareign born because they gave strength to de Jamaican National football team and a always willing to represent There country..
Look at that one guy who wants to represent TNT ..he is about 30+ in age and just found out dat his mudda is a Trini..do you blame him?.I dont I blame he flicking mudda....Will dat ever happen to a yardie hell flickin no!!!!!!!! He mudda go tell him inside a she belly trus mi!!!!!!!!!!!
Big up man like Birchall he didnt even think twice to represent TNT he was ready from de first day he was asked..
warmonga..
"de difference between war and anyother person is I dont care who it hurts I sey it as I see it.."
Big Up all fareign Born who willing to accept there roots"

warmonga is years you talking siht on this site and rileing up people and I never say nuttin.  But you cross the line there.  

What SHIT you talking here this morning?

Boy Trinis all over the world love to big up they culture.  Funny thing is that Trinis at home find that Trinis in foreign real hype about Trinidad.  So there alone I doh know what assness you talking.  When last you went a soca fete?  And not just in NY but anywhere in the world?  Trinidad ALWAYS representing and luving they culture boy.  What you feel NY Labour Day is?  Eh?  Is Trinis start that and other islands jump on board.  Look even Jamaica import the whole of Trini Carnival (masqueraders and all) and Jacans loving it too.

Cyah lie.  This have to one of the most stupid posts you have ever made warmonga.  And that in itself is an achievement.

[Reggaefan]

I feel like giving yuh a steups but I'll try to explain.

First off Big magic's post was REAL FUNNY, not just a bit.

Secondly, his use fo the Reggaebrits was a joke, generally nobody has anything against british born people or people from any other country (generally).

The reggae brits situation is one where Jamaica went and got a lot of players who were English to reperesent Jamaica and qualify for a WC.

Some of these players identified with their JA heritage, otheres I am sure did not, a few never even played for them after the WC.

So right now there is always the debate about:
where a player's loyalty really is when he is "imported"
whether loyalty is even an issue when it comes to football
how does importation affect the development of local born players

Because they have had much more migration than us and have used many more imports we does pound them and give them talk because more of our players are locally developed.

Also even in JA there are people who would rather see a young Jamaican than an Englishman who was not good enough for England.

JDB, with all due respect, you know nothing about Jamaica's football, so you are therefore not qualified to inform this poster about Jamaica's football. 3 English based players helped Jamaica to qualify for the world cup....3 out of a squad of 25. The English based players who didnt represent Jamaica after teh world cup were simply not selected by the coach. You may know motre about T&T's situation, so thats where you should be focusing your attention. There are many many more UK based players waiting to suit up for Jamaica and T&T to a lesser extent. Jamaica for one has given the UK a number of Footballers and track athletes....so nothing wrong with either T&T or Jamaica calling on teh offsprings of our nationals living in the diaspora.

[Carib-Briton]

This will always be a matter of taste. You are sensitive about it being born in Britain and so enough is too much. Many other forumites are not and they are less likely to find it tiresome.

You know wha.t This was meant to be nice discussion but now your assuming things and taking them the wrong way. I am not sensitive about being born in the Britain. because my parents came here with good intentions for their family and other family members who were born here or brought here.
If anything I embrace the fact i was born here because I see the postives why I was born in the UK. My cousin was born here too otherwise he might of died(long story) so I am POSITIVE about being born in the UK
Do you realise that you were wrong to say that now?

Well the point was that the "local born" Jamaicans do not see "foreign born" players as being Caribbean, they see them as being English i.e. not really Jamaican. I used Englsihman to highlight the difference between the two not as a hard and fast definition of any social group.

When the man on the street is griping he is not going to say that a local born lost out to a "foreign born black british caribbean", he will say "a Englishman (or maybe a f***ing English)

I get your point and know that already but I was telling you something not arguing. Did you know about the term before I told you? I was just englighten you not mocking your terms used, right?

[Carib-Briton]

By the Way JDB if i was sensitive about a issue I would of put people on BLAST from the beginning. Not ask a question.
Whether you belief it or not most people born here consider them self as the saying goes British by paper(if they dont have a Caricom passport) Caribbean by Nature.

[Carib-Briton]

BESIDES A MORE APPROPRIATE QUESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN:  "WHAT'S THE STEAK AND KIDNEY PIE WITH BRITISH BORN PLAYERS?

[JDB]

JDB, with all due respect, you know nothing about Jamaica's football, so you are therefore not qualified to inform this poster about Jamaica's football. 3 English based players helped Jamaica to qualify for the world cup....3 out of a squad of 25. The English based players who didnt represent Jamaica after teh world cup were simply not selected by the coach. You may know motre about T&T's situation, so thats where you should be focusing your attention. There are many many more UK based players waiting to suit up for Jamaica and T&T to a lesser extent. Jamaica for one has given the UK a number of Footballers and track athletes....so nothing wrong with either T&T or Jamaica calling on teh offsprings of our nationals living in the diaspora.

Did I try to tell him about JA football?.

Did you hear me say that there is anything wrong with importinig players?

Do you know my personal opinion on the matter?

I was giving a history of the situation and why it comes up on the board.

What was factually inaccurate about what I said?

5 players out of every team that played in the world cup is "a lot of players".

Saying 3 out of 25 does not give a true description of the impact that the Reggaebrits have had on JA football. How many points did they have before they joined. How many in th ethree matches right after they joined. Saying 3 out of 25 is an attempt to downplay their significance.

Were all the players who never played again "simply not selected" by the coach? Was it really as Simple as that.

[JDB]

This will always be a matter of taste. You are sensitive about it being born in Britain and so enough is too much. Many other forumites are not and they are less likely to find it tiresome.

You know wha.t This was meant to be nice discussion but now your assuming things and taking them the wrong way. I am not sensitive about being born in the Britain. because my parents came here with good intentions for their family and other family members who were born here or brought here.
If anything I embrace the fact i was born here because I see the postives why I was born in the UK. My cousin was born here too otherwise he might of died(long story) so I am POSITIVE about being born in the UK
Do you realise that you were wrong to say that now?

I did not say that you were sensitive about being born in Britain.

Okay.

Include a comma in the sentence (or think about the use of the word "it") that you quoted and it means that you are sensitive about us making the joke and/or have less tolerance for the joke and/or find the joke less funny because your are British (and like everyone else very proud and positive about it).

I never meant to imply that you had a complex about being British born in fact I assumed the opposite (that you are positive about being British born) and figured that that is why you would be sensitive about a topic that deals with British born people vs Caribbean born people.

By the Way JDB if i was sensitive about a issue I would of put people on BLAST from the beginning. Not ask a question.

Again a question of taste. personally when a touchy subject comes up on the board I DO ask a question to promote discussion and get a point across rather than put peoiple on blast.

If you don't find the constant jokes and comments a touchy subject then I apologize.

[Carib-Briton]

Again a question of taste. personally when a touchy subject comes up on the board I DO ask a question to promote discussion and get a point across rather than put peoiple on blast.

If you don't find the constant jokes and comments a touchy subject then I apologize.

WOW My Eyes.lol Next Time quote properly
As for you last post I didnt find that joke OTT funny. It had nothing to do with being born in a back seat of a car or a dustbin. You need to stop assuming tings I was not sensitive about It. I just picked up on something and decided to ask a question? ok

you didnt answer my question did you? Did you know about the Black British Caribbean Term before?

Also another point sometimes its not always to with certain people dont want to play for their country of origin unless you have worked in a football club(I havent but I know people) You would know certain tings happen. My someone whom I know through a friend for instance got called up for Jamaica Under 21's
but his manager said if you go I wont pick you again, and hes a young guy trying to break into a professional side, so what he is supposed to do? risk his chances and end up playing in Non-League Football Next season? I think not. and this is not the first time I know this has happened to some one, many times in fact second from last case just happend to guy whos father comes from Ghana and he just broke into his first team this season.Hes only 17 is he going to risk his chances? no I dont think so because with no football there is not international football

[JDB]

This really is my fault.

here we go gain...

If you don't find the constant jokes and comments (to be a) touchy subject (for you) then I apoplogize (for assuming that you did [find them to be a touchy subject to you] )

I am not trying to be pissy but I really want to clarify my statement.

As for the rest of your post that information is not new.

I just told Warmonga that it is not in the best interests of a young players career to identify himself as a Jamaican and not British. I know that it gives him more hurdles and makes things more difficult.

I have also never questioned anybody's decision when it comes to this. It is not my concern. In my mind everybody has to do what makes them happy.

I was merely describing the general situation, not giving my own personal opinion so there is no need to defend or explain the choices of foreign born players to me.

And yes I did know the terminology.

[Big Magician]

  I have no "beef" with british born players...none at all....just say yes when you asked.....come in de trenches and dog fight your way to the world cup...like birchall..cox...austin....mauge....right....i not on this "" well its every players dream to play in the world cup" bullshit.....come and fight with me....FOREVER

TNT TNT TNT TNT TNT

[Trini _2026]

I feel like giving yuh a steups but I'll try to explain.

First off Big magic's post was REAL FUNNY, not just a bit.

Secondly, his use fo the Reggaebrits was a joke, generally nobody has anything against british born people or people from any other country (generally).

The reggae brits situation is one where Jamaica went and got a lot of players who were English to reperesent Jamaica and qualify for a WC.

Some of these players identified with their JA heritage, otheres I am sure did not, a few never even played for them after the WC.

So right now there is always the debate about:
where a player's loyalty really is when he is "imported"
whether loyalty is even an issue when it comes to football
how does importation affect the development of local born players

Because they have had much more migration than us and have used many more imports we does pound them and give them talk because more of our players are locally developed.

Also even in JA there are people who would rather see a young Jamaican than an Englishman who was not good enough for England.

JDB, with all due respect, you know nothing about Jamaica's football, so you are therefore not qualified to inform this poster about Jamaica's football. 3 English based players helped Jamaica to qualify for the world cup....3 out of a squad of 25. The English based players who didnt represent Jamaica after teh world cup were simply not selected by the coach. You may know motre about T&T's situation, so thats where you should be focusing your attention. There are many many more UK based players waiting to suit up for Jamaica and T&T to a lesser extent. Jamaica for one has given the UK a number of Footballers and track athletes....so nothing wrong with either T&T or Jamaica calling on teh offsprings of our nationals living in the diaspora.

I agree with you right there RF there. The canadian team that won the 4*100 in the 1996 olympics was a west indian born team two jamaican a hatian and trini.the were all born.  I think charmine hooper was born or is ofguyanaese parantage there , the deguzman brother mom is jamaican (i think jamaica ignored deguzman when he showed interest). So basically if a player request to play for trinidad or jamaica why  be angry and screw if he is think about his career the americans did not blast kerron clement and sanya richards for running for them plus both of them thought about rep thier birth countires but changed thier mind.

[warmonga]

My parents are not trini so doh kill me.
But after small magicans post on the JA Coach (which was slightly funny)
what is the beef you guys doh like us British Born Peeps? 
or is a joke?

I will tell yu since I do not see it like many other Trini's..Jamaicans a proud no matter what part of de world dey born to represent there country of Jamaica while Trinidadians a f**ked up seriously dem cya wait to change the citizenship when dem cum a fareign..Once dem cum a fareign dem forget all about TNT..I have many cousin of Trini parentage who was born Innah de U.S and they completely failed to Reconise they are Trini's.. On my Mudda side everyone who was born a fareign still says dat they are Jamaicans even though dey neva even been to Jamaica..Look at the players dat TNT football staff is suckin there dicks to cum aboard one of dem was actually born in Trinidad and he told dem f**k off..sum Trini's are simply Mad with Jamaican fareign born because they gave strength to de Jamaican National football team and a always willing to represent There country..
Look at that one guy who wants to represent TNT ..he is about 30+ in age and just found out dat his mudda is a Trini..do you blame him?.I dont I blame he flicking mudda....Will dat ever happen to a yardie hell flickin no!!!!!!!! He mudda go tell him inside a she belly trus mi!!!!!!!!!!!
Big up man like Birchall he didnt even think twice to represent TNT he was ready from de first day he was asked..
warmonga..
"de difference between war and anyother person is I dont care who it hurts I sey it as I see it.."
Big Up all fareign Born who willing to accept there roots"

warmonga is years you talking siht on this site and rileing up people and I never say nuttin.  But you cross the line there.  

What SHIT you talking here this morning?

Boy Trinis all over the world love to big up they culture.  Funny thing is that Trinis at home find that Trinis in foreign real hype about Trinidad.  So there alone I doh know what assness you talking.  When last you went a soca fete?  And not just in NY but anywhere in the world?  Trinidad ALWAYS representing and luving they culture boy.  What you feel NY Labour Day is?  Eh?  Is Trinis start that and other islands jump on board.  Look even Jamaica import the whole of Trini Carnival (masqueraders and all) and Jacans loving it too.

Cyah lie.  This have to one of the most stupid posts you have ever made warmonga.  And that in itself is an achievement.

Jah when is de last time I went to a scoa fete?.. Find out about mi in Chicago ..Mi a de wickedest soca  MIC man innah de world.. Come a chicago anytime we will vibes it up ..I will ink yu up wid mi Bredda sentinel.. Some guys here bout mi ..see mi on de forum but dey aint know nothin but warmonga..cum a chicago .. On de zNew York issue..I really dontlike New York been there many times wid my former sound System "T.S Soundz".. No disrespect to Newyorkers but If i had to live in New york I will go back a yard..New York to dutty fi mi..Mi love Chicago Mi love it!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk yu talk bredda but as I say before mi a big man and mi na deal wid personal attaks..
respect ..Warmonga..

[Filho]

Fact is....it is real bullshit   to be talking about foreign born players playing for TnT, JA etc...why draw the line there?....we were not going to the WC without or dutch coaching staff...they are just as integral to the team as the players. oh yeah...lewwe ignore that.....

I have no "beef" with british born players...none at all....just say yes when you asked.....come in de trenches and dog fight your way to the world cup...like birchall..cox...austin....mauge....right....i not on this "" well its every players dream to play in the world cup" bullshit.....come and fight with me....FOREVER

TNT TNT TNT TNT TNT

so you doh like Shaka den?

[Big Magician]

CHECK YUH BIZNESS FILHO.....SHAKA FATHER HAD A BIG DISPUTE WITH THE TTFF AT THE TIME.....THAT WAS A BIG PART OF SHAKA HOLDING OUT ON TNT....CHECK IT OUT....DONT FORGET SHAKA IS A TNT YOUTH PLAYER....HE FADDER WAS STUDING LAW IN ENGLAND.....SHAKA IS TNT...

[Carib-Briton]

  I have no "beef" with british born players...none at all....just say yes when you asked.....come in de trenches and dog fight your way to the world cup...like birchall..cox...austin....mauge....right....i not on this "" well its every players dream to play in the world cup" bullshit.....come and fight with me....FOREVER

TNT TNT TNT TNT TNT

Well I agree wid that. That my whole point of this thread because I know lots of players/people like the ones youve mentioned

[Pointman]

Futbol, plain and simple as Big Magican says "come fight with we in the trenches" not jump on the bandwaggon when tings looking rosey. That's our beef with "foriegn" born players.

 Having said that, I do understand that there is a lot of pressure on these young player to choose between a chance at a professional career and representing the country of your parents or maybe grandparents(your "roots" so to speak).

[truetrini]

I feel like giving yuh a steups but I'll try to explain.

First off Big magic's post was REAL FUNNY, not just a bit.

Secondly, his use fo the Reggaebrits was a joke, generally nobody has anything against british born people or people from any other country (generally).

The reggae brits situation is one where Jamaica went and got a lot of players who were English to reperesent Jamaica and qualify for a WC.

Some of these players identified with their JA heritage, otheres I am sure did not, a few never even played for them after the WC.

So right now there is always the debate about:
where a player's loyalty really is when he is "imported"
whether loyalty is even an issue when it comes to football
how does importation affect the development of local born players

Because they have had much more migration than us and have used many more imports we does pound them and give them talk because more of our players are locally developed.

Also even in JA there are people who would rather see a young Jamaican than an Englishman who was not good enough for England.

JDB, with all due respect, you know nothing about Jamaica's football, so you are therefore not qualified to inform this poster about Jamaica's football. 3 English based players helped Jamaica to qualify for the world cup....3 out of a squad of 25. The English based players who didnt represent Jamaica after teh world cup were simply not selected by the coach. You may know motre about T&T's situation, so thats where you should be focusing your attention. There are many many more UK based players waiting to suit up for Jamaica and T&T to a lesser extent. Jamaica for one has given the UK a number of Footballers and track athletes....so nothing wrong with either T&T or Jamaica calling on teh offsprings of our nationals living in the diaspora.

RF right..why yuh bringing school boy ball inna big man sporting talk.

f**k YOU RF!

you qualified tuh talk bout T&T football doh.

go tackle yuh mammy!

[kicker]

Futbol:

No one has an issue with British-born peeps.

BM's interview was just poking fun at Jamaica's use of British-born players to improve their team.....it's Caribbean picong and ole talk. It was clearly a joke and exaggerated to be funny....so everyone on this thread needs to relax and not give this issue more words than it deserves.

[capodetutticapi]

fellas ah tink dis site need some senna.ah good purge.too much shit.