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Author Topic: The Jack Warner Thread.  (Read 427159 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1020 on: June 29, 2011, 12:58:21 PM »
Bakes yuh twisting it, the argument started out about getting JW, but quickly went into can they investigate or not leaving out the part about convicting or locking him up. Since then the entire thread has been about whether they can investigate or not to see IF any wrong doing occured.

You's ah imps or what?  Did I ever say they cannot investigate?  I said it was not a priority in light of everything Trinidad have to deal with.  FS and others then start arguing about how they must investigate.  Everything else I pointed out was about the difficulty in pursuing any investigation... especially one that would yield fruit.  How I "twisting it"... yuh can't f**king comprehend or what?

Offline elan

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1021 on: June 29, 2011, 05:07:00 PM »
Bakes yuh twisting it, the argument started out about getting JW, but quickly went into can they investigate or not leaving out the part about convicting or locking him up. Since then the entire thread has been about whether they can investigate or not to see IF any wrong doing occured.

You's ah imps or what?  Did I ever say they cannot investigate?  I said it was not a priority in light of everything Trinidad have to deal with.  FS and others then start arguing about how they must investigate.  Everything else I pointed out was about the difficulty in pursuing any investigation... especially one that would yield fruit.  How I "twisting it"... yuh can't f**king comprehend or what?

lol
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Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1022 on: June 29, 2011, 05:56:48 PM »
What that Gibbs is wasting his precious time with this investigation but is unwillingly going along with it to get Rowley & crew off his back?!
Okay right! And the earth is flat!  ;D

Nah Bakes..........

First of all Socapro... how you go even try an clown me and you don't even understand what the f**k it is yuh reading?  Or is it that yuh didn't understand the conversation between FS and I?  And Elan you self bawling "I knew you could do that." Do what... use the FIU to get into his banking records?  You realize that the FIU laws is Trinidad version of the Anti-Money Laundering (aka AML) laws FS and I was talking about earlier, right?  Apparently not.

Now try and follow along... Socapro I know you really need crayons, but pretty colors is the best ah could do:

(From the Bin Hammam thread...)

Did anyone see Burrell or Austin for instance (or their delegates) sneak the cash out?  Minus an eyewitness account you have nothing.  You can't even go ask their banks anything because TnT police cannot force foreign banks to disclose information about foreign citizens.  So what's left... get the police/governments in the foreign jurisdictions to launch an investigation for you?  Satan will sooner sprout wings and play harps in Heaven before anybody put that atop their list of priorities.

Now to Jack... if he is the one who allegedly "transferred sums illegally"... on what basis?  Because he allegedly distributed large sums of cash in TnT?  There just doesn't seem any rhyme or reason to this incessant drumbeat for an investigation.  Sure, it would be nice... but where do you start?  On what basis?  Jack isn't suspected or any criminal activity... let alone money laundering, so there's no basis for using AML regulations to get into his finances... and even then, all it will tell you (if anything) is that he withdrew large sums of cash from his accounts.  If it doesn't tell you that, then you can speculate and say "aha... then he MUST have brought in the cash."  Okay... but where's the proof that HE did?

Now from the "expert":

Quote
The T&T Guardian understands that AG Anand Ramlogan, could have requested information from other Commonwealth and non-Commonwealth countries through the Central Authority, a unit within his ministry that deals with mutual legal assistance requests and extradition matters. This power, the T&T Guardian learned, is to be found in the Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act, 1997 (as amended) Chapter 11:24 of the Laws of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Section 3 (1) states: “Subject to sub-section (2), the Attorney General shall be Central Authority.” A letter of request from T&T’s Central Authority can be transmitted to a Central Authority in another jurisdiction which has the same legislation. the Guardian was informed. Section 7 of the same Act, titled Requests by Trinidad and Tobago to Commonwealth Countries for Assistance. gives either the AG or Gibbs power to pursue investigations of Warner beyond T&T shores to international countries, if need be.

Me: Gibbs could ask the foreign police/governments to interview the CFU officials, but good luck getting anybody to make that a priority.

Expert: The Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters Act allows Ramlogan to send a request to the Central Authority in another Commonwealth Country and request assistance in the investigation.

Analysis: Aside from me saying Gibbs and the expert saying "Ramlogan or Gibbs"... the only difference is that the "a legal source" (not sure if is the same "expert") making it seem like they could just walk into St. Lucia and start asking FA president Patrick Mathurin questions (“This Act gives Commissioner Gibbs the authority to interview any members of the CFU if he wants. He doesn’t have to wait on FIFA correspondence or a FIFA report, he can be proactive,” a legal source explained to the T&T Guardian."), an assertion which is grossly misleading if not flat out wrong.


Now as to Jack's finances:

Quote
When it comes to exploring where the US currency was obtained for bin Hammam’s $40,000 cash payout to CFU members from local banks, provisions are made under Section 3 (1) of the Financial Intelligence Unit of Trinidad and Tobago Regulations, 2011.

It allows the Director of the FIU to request financial information from a financial institution or listed business by written request. “Where the director makes a request under sub-regulation (1), the financial institution or listed business shall respond to the request within seven working days of the receipt of the request for information,” states Section 3(2). The T&T Guardian understands the FIU could have sought assistance of the local banks in obtaining the bank records of Warner before May 10.
In addition, under the Integrity in Public Life Act, Warner was expected to list all his accounts to the Integrity Commission, which should make access easier, the T&T Guardian was informed. If the money didn’t come from T&T, then it can be assumed that it came into T&T,” a source explained. Warner resigned from FIFA and as president of CONCACAF and the Caribbean Football Union (CFU) on June 20 and was officially stripped of the tranport part of his ministerial portfolio last Sunday. Dr Rowley has called for Gibbs to press on with investigating whether the laws of T&T were broken despite Warner’s resignation and his leaving FIFA “presumed innocent.”

Me: (see the red highlighted part of my comments at the top) Police can't just go looking into Jack's private financial affairs unless they suspect him of committing a crime.  AML laws specifically target "irregular or suspicious financial transactions" which the banks are obligated to report.

Expert: FIU Director can send a request to get Jack Warner's bank records prior to May 10.

Analysis: FIU laws and AML laws are the same thing, but don't take my word for it, look up "Financial Intelligence Unit of Trinidad and Tobago Regulations, 2011" and look at the AML laws link I posted in the Bin Hammam thread (or look it up online) and see fuh allyuh self.  The difference is that I say they must suspect him of being involved in criminal activity, and specifically, that he used the banks services as part of the criminal scheme.  This "expert" seems to say that even without suspicion the FIU Director could just ketch ah vaps and send a request to the bank/s.  I stand by my disagreement with that interpretation because that is not what the law says.  

Furthermore I even conceded that even if they were able to get his banking records all it would show is whether the money was withdrawn from his account in TnT.  If it doesn't show that then they could say the money was brought in thru Customs... but then they wouldn't know that he was the one (as opposed to Bin Hammam or one of his people) who brought the money thru Customs.  The Guardian "understands" all kinda misleading conclusions that they draw on their own separate to what was explained to them.  Show me anywhere in that article where the expert says they can go into non-Commonwealth countries (the Guardian says it, not this "expert") or where s/he says "There are laws to get ‘goods’ on Warner" himself... as opposed to finding out how the money was brought into TnT.

This man good yes!! If allyuh need a good lawyer I think allyuh should hire Bakes if allyuh could afford him!

Quite enjoyed the line about me needing crayons to help me undestand! That was a good one!  :rotfl:
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline dreamer

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1023 on: June 29, 2011, 08:05:42 PM »
Recommended plan for tomorrow's court session:

Ignore Jackula. Laser focus on Scampito. The agenda is open de accounting books and answer the judge's question of "whey de money went?!!! Zero tolerance fuh BS answers. Take TTFF to de cleaners and let TTFF make Scamps de only scapegoat, forcing KLL to rally troops to request resignation of Scampito and Rodent as TTFF declares bankruptcy. Then let the presumed trail of "missing" dullahs in de acounts lead to a stash of brown envelopes and cartons hidden away by de stutterer. So go ahead and light de fire and doh let Jackula try to intimidate you again wit' any robber talk aabout Tsunami comin' again. Let de international and local coyotes in hiding do de job of finishin' off Jackula and his minions. Then collect de additional millions coming your way from de legal ruling as international pressure mounts in perfect timing. The world is watching. Crossroads moment. You are no longer alone. Ride de wave.

Good luck my Warriors. Hol' it dong Sancho, Kelvin, Shaka, Stern, Kenwyne, Wolfman, Cyd, Wiseman and de rest ah de crew. Keep yuh cool and doh blink. God bless.

Niceness. Respec'.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 08:43:52 PM by dreamer »
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truetrini

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1024 on: June 30, 2011, 06:53:02 AM »
CAPTION THIS... - Jack and Jill ?....  :devil:



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Offline Flex

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1025 on: June 30, 2011, 09:15:47 AM »
FIFA tells Gibbs wait till bribery probe ends
By NALINEE SEELAL (Newsday).
Thursday, June 30 2011


Eighteen days after writing an official letter to international football body FIFA seeking information regarding allegations that undeclared sums of US currency entered Trinidad and Tobago (TT) sometime in May, Police Commissioner Dwayne Gibbs yesterday received a response to his letter.

Newsday understands that in an email response to Gibbs, FIFA stated it could not reveal any information on the allegations because FIFA’s Ethics Committee was still in the process of receiving key information and it could not prejudice the probe by revealing any details.

According to the letter, FIFA claimed it was bound by certain laws which has to be adhered to, and pending the outcome of the probe, which is centred around former FIFA presidential candidate Mohamed bin Hammam, FIFA may consider sending information to the TT Police Service.

FIFA is probing bribery allegations against bin Hammam, the suspended Asian Football Confederation president, stemming from a meeting of Caribbean Football Union officials at the Hyatt Regency, Port-of-Spain last May. The claims are bribes were paid for CFU votes for his candidacy for FIFA president, which he withdrew from when suspended, which cleared the way for Sepp Blatter to be re-elected unopposed.

Works Minister Jack Warner had been suspended as FIFA vice-president over the claims pending an investigation but resigned from international football earlier this month, which led FIFA to declare that he was no longer the subject of any investigation, adding Warner was presumed to be innocent.

Attempts by Newsday to reach Gibbs proved unsuccessful yesterday, since he was reported to be in several meetings.

However, sources revealed Gibbs has taken a decision to await further information from FIFA before making public statements on whether officers will be mandated to carry out a probe on the allegations.

Senior officers of the TT Customs and Excise Division also confirmed that no probe into the FIFA allegations is taking place at this time.

Gibbs sent FIFA a letter on June 12, following a call by Opposition Leader Dr Keith Rowley for the police to probe allegations that large sums of US currency were brought into the country in relation to the bribery claims.

Earlier this month, the Police Service said Gibbs was not guilty of dereliction of duty for not initiating a probe into the bribery allegations and indicated FIFA would be written about whether it had information on any alleged illegal activity in this country.
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Offline Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1026 on: June 30, 2011, 09:41:58 AM »
FIFA tells Gibbs wait till bribery probe ends
By NALINEE SEELAL (Newsday).
Thursday, June 30 2011


Eighteen days after writing an official letter to international football body FIFA seeking information regarding allegations that undeclared sums of US currency entered Trinidad and Tobago (TT) sometime in May, Police Commissioner Dwayne Gibbs yesterday received a response to his letter.

Newsday understands that in an email response to Gibbs, FIFA stated it could not reveal any information on the allegations because FIFA’s Ethics Committee was still in the process of receiving key information and it could not prejudice the probe by revealing any details.

According to the letter, FIFA claimed it was bound by certain laws which has to be adhered to, and pending the outcome of the probe, which is centred around former FIFA presidential candidate Mohamed bin Hammam, FIFA may consider sending information to the TT Police Service.

FIFA is probing bribery allegations against bin Hammam, the suspended Asian Football Confederation president, stemming from a meeting of Caribbean Football Union officials at the Hyatt Regency, Port-of-Spain last May. The claims are bribes were paid for CFU votes for his candidacy for FIFA president, which he withdrew from when suspended, which cleared the way for Sepp Blatter to be re-elected unopposed.

Works Minister Jack Warner had been suspended as FIFA vice-president over the claims pending an investigation but resigned from international football earlier this month, which led FIFA to declare that he was no longer the subject of any investigation, adding Warner was presumed to be innocent.

Attempts by Newsday to reach Gibbs proved unsuccessful yesterday, since he was reported to be in several meetings.

However, sources revealed Gibbs has taken a decision to await further information from FIFA before making public statements on whether officers will be mandated to carry out a probe on the allegations.

Senior officers of the TT Customs and Excise Division also confirmed that no probe into the FIFA allegations is taking place at this time.

Gibbs sent FIFA a letter on June 12, following a call by Opposition Leader Dr Keith Rowley for the police to probe allegations that large sums of US currency were brought into the country in relation to the bribery claims.

Earlier this month, the Police Service said Gibbs was not guilty of dereliction of duty for not initiating a probe into the bribery allegations and indicated FIFA would be written about whether it had information on any alleged illegal activity in this country.

They very well MAY decide not to as well.  Then where does the calls for investigation turn it's focus?

Offline weary1969

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1027 on: June 30, 2011, 09:54:17 AM »
I await  Anand Ramlogan  has to say now ...
If u plan 2 hold yuh breath make sure yuh insurance paid up so dat yuh beneficiary will benefit because yuh go dead waitin.
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Offline Cocorite

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1028 on: June 30, 2011, 03:55:15 PM »
CAPTION THIS... - Jack and Jill ?....  :devil:



Kamla: Jack yuh right yuh know. . .dese schupid people go believe anyting yuh tell dem, oui.
Jack: Yuh ain't see wah ah tell yuh awa. . .all yuh ha tuh do is wave an' flash bling
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Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1029 on: June 30, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »
I await  Anand Ramlogan  has to say now ...
If u plan 2 hold yuh breath make sure yuh insurance paid up so dat yuh beneficiary will benefit because yuh go dead waitin.
:rotfl:
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline dreamer

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1030 on: July 05, 2011, 05:48:12 PM »
Remember Warriors:

1. Take them to de cleaners.
2. Focus on Scamps and Rodent for de trail of the lost money and absence of TTFF accounts.
3. Doh study Jackulito and de robbertalk.
4. When Scamps stutters "Yuh honour we eh have no money ... an' an' an' I eh know whey it went sah", force the TTFF to take a massive hit, that they must take out a megaloan to pay as the judge orders.
5. Let Scamps be forced to resign as KLL and the others mutiny and try to protect their jobs and the treasured gravy train.
6. With Scamps gone, a whole wave of events will be triggered as people will feel safer to talk.

Don't settle fuh peanuts if Jaclkula tries again to do some behind de scenes divide and conquer.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:26:24 PM by dreamer »
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Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1031 on: July 05, 2011, 05:57:30 PM »
Remember Warriors:

1. Take them to de cleaners.
2. Focus on Scamps and Rodent for de trail of the lost money and absence of TTF acounts.
3. Doh study Jackulito and de robbertalk.
4. When Scamps stutters "Yuh honour we eh have no money ... an' an' an' I eh know whey it went sah", force the TTFF to take a massive hit, that they must take out a megaloan to pay as the judge orders.
5. Let Scamps be forced to resign as KLL and the others mutiny and try to protect their jobs and the treasured gravy train.
6. With Scamps gone, a whole wave of events will be triggered as people will feel safer to talk.

Don't settle fuh peanuts if Jaclkula tries again to do some behind de scenes divide and conquer.

 :thumbsup:
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Football supporter

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1032 on: July 05, 2011, 07:31:44 PM »
"force the TTFF to take a massive hit, that they must take out a megaloan to pay as the judge orders."

Problem with that is the next evoloution of TTFF will inherit a debt and this will stifle football in T&T.

What should happen (and I'm waiting for Bakes to correct me on my legal understanding!) is that once the cupboard is bare,(i.e. TTFF are forced to declare bankruptcy) an investigation into TTFF accounts should take place (on the grounds that certain known items such as 1 million swiss francs, which, I believe, was the FIFA qualification award is unaccounted for). Once any financial mis appropriation is discovered, Camps, as TTFF President, and Warner as the Chairman of 2006 LOC should be held responsible and their personal assets seized to pay the players whatever figure the judge deems fair.

Warner was ultimately responsible for all income and expenditure relating to 2006 as 2006 LOC was the appointed agent of TTFF. Camps is ultimately responsible because he should have been overseeing 2006 LOC affairs and ensured that suitable checks and balances were in place.

Camps & Warner may well blame other people such as Roden, but as I understand it, it is their ultimate responsibility as they were in such positions to ensure mis appropriation did not take place.

Offline dreamer

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1033 on: July 05, 2011, 07:54:57 PM »
"force the TTFF to take a massive hit, that they must take out a megaloan to pay as the judge orders."

Problem with that is the next evoloution of TTFF will inherit a debt and this will stifle football in T&T.

What should happen (and I'm waiting for Bakes to correct me on my legal understanding!) is that once the cupboard is bare,(i.e. TTFF are forced to declare bankruptcy) an investigation into TTFF accounts should take place (on the grounds that certain known items such as 1 million swiss francs, which, I believe, was the FIFA qualification award is unaccounted for). Once any financial mis appropriation is discovered, Camps, as TTFF President, and Warner as the Chairman of 2006 LOC should be held responsible and their personal assets seized to pay the players whatever figure the judge deems fair.

Warner was ultimately responsible for all income and expenditure relating to 2006 as 2006 LOC was the appointed agent of TTFF. Camps is ultimately responsible because he should have been overseeing 2006 LOC affairs and ensured that suitable checks and balances were in place.

Camps & Warner may well blame other people such as Roden, but as I understand it, it is their ultimate responsibility as they were in such positions to ensure mis appropriation did not take place.


I see your point but "small ting" really. To get Jackulito, get Scamps first and de whole deck of cards will fall
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 08:16:28 PM by dreamer »
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Offline Tallman

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For the Love of Jack
« Reply #1034 on: July 06, 2011, 01:55:53 PM »
For the Love of Jack
By Dr. Selwyn R. Cudjoe (trinicenter.com)


I have had mixed feelings about Jack's fall from grace. I have not been able to garner the venom that some have displayed toward him nor the delight others have taken in his departure from FIFA. I am yet to see how Jack's actions have so maligned Trinidad and Tobago that I have to hang my head in shame when I am in the outside world. Few Americans hang their heads in shame in light of Madoff's shenanigans.

My association with Jack goes back to the first time we met at the Tacarigua Anglican School in 1976 at a meeting of the Eddie Hart League in which, if memory serves me correctly, he was trying to take over the League or become more involved in it. The Eddie Hart League, the most popular football league at that time in which more than one hundred teams participate, was graced by the presence of football greats such as Ulric "Buggie" Haynes, Keith Aqui, Everett Gally Cummings, Jerry Brown and Leroy de Leon.

Later I got to know more about Jack's humble beginnings and followed his meteoric rise to the top of the soccer world. I admired his tenacity, intellectual prowess and sheer dogmatism that got him to where he had arrived. Jack remained the same Jack no matter how high he climbed: approachable, generous and cantankerous but a Trini in every essential sense of the term. Even at the height of his power, Jack had no problem dropping by the hotel at which we stayed in Germany and bringing tickets for a few of us to see the USA vs. Italy game during World Cup 2006. And, he wined and dined us as though we were kings.

Jack also did a lot for Caribbean football. During his reign two teams from the smallest island nations in the world (Trinidad and Tobago and Jamaica) made it to the World Cup, a feat that was unprecedented. Because of Jack several Caribbean footballers now play in the top football leagues around the world. One observer notes: "Let's see what happens to Caribbean football in the next ten years now that Jack is gone."

Jack was also generous. One could always turn to Jack if one's organization had a problem and needed help. He kept his little book, it is true, but it was not as if he made his money, by fair means and/or foul, and kept it for himself. It was almost as though he was playing the Robin Hood role in black skin: liberating goods from the rich to ease the sufferings of the poor.

I am not here to commend Jack's behavior nor to set him up as the ultimate champion of ethics (although I am sure he had an ethics of his own) or morality in pubic affairs. Jack worked for FIFA which many have described as a mafia-styled organization. No one expected him to act as a choir boy in such an organization when its ethics demanded that one acted otherwise. And so he played the part to the hilt.

As in everything else, fame and fortune prevent one from seeing what is possible and what constitutes over-reacting. Sometimes, one forgets at one's peril that no matter how high a black man gets in any organization he still remains a black man or worse an appellation that begins with the infamous "n" word. You do not insult kings and presidents; prime ministers and chancellors and believe that one can get away scotch free.

And then he became much too flamboyant. He challenged Step Blatter, invited Ben Hamman to Port of Spain, and participated (so it is alleged) in giving out of funds without regard to its consequences. He threw caution to the wind; bet on the wrong horse and lost. My mother used to say, "You do and do until yo' overdo." Eventually, Jack over did.

A spectacular chapter of Jack's life has come to an end and now his career is on the decline. But who is willing to forget the excitement the nation felt when we saw our colors flying at the World Cup in 2006. Who would forget-I certainly can't forget-the playing of the British national anthem followed by our national anthem as we faced Britain in the first round of the qualifying matches? On that day, more than any other, I felt as an authentic Trini, bereft of the negations that centuries of English colonialism had imbibed within us.

One cannot be proud of how Jack treated the players who brought such glory to our country. They should not have had to go to court to get their just due. That remains a blemish on Jack's outstanding stewardship. Nor can one be proud of the many persons who felt victimized because they were not in Jack's camp. The stories of discarded coaches, maligned players and wronged officials fill our ears with sadness. This is a side of Jack that he might regret one day.

But Jack had another side of which we can all be proud. Garth Crooks, a former Tottenham Hotspurs footballer and broadcaster for the BBC, put it best when I spoke with him in London on Sunday. He said: "Whatever else you think of Jack Warner, you have to respect what he achieved for Caribbean football on the world stage and that is glory he enough." Crooks should know. He represented England in soccer and knows the working of FIFA well.

Jacks is 68 years old, a man at the beginning of old age. He should take comfort in the affection that many of us hold for him. On his seventieth birthday, Rubindranath Tagore, one of India's greatest poets and statesmen, reflected on the adulation that was bestowed on him and said: "We offer someone our devotion according to the measure of his greatness, our respect according to the measure of his competence; but affection uses no rule of measurement. When love begins its homage it gives itself entire."

Jack participation in national politics remains a challenging issue. Undoubtedly, I will say something about this in the future. For now, I acknowledge my affection for him and offer him my homage. There is much about him of which the nation should be proud.
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Offline Dutty

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1035 on: July 06, 2011, 02:19:31 PM »
Cudjoe musbe get wined and dined extensively to come out wit da one
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1036 on: July 06, 2011, 03:05:23 PM »
Ah coulda overlook de "Step Blatter" and de "Ben Hamman" if he wasn't talking so much shit otherwise.  Jack responsible for Caribbean footballers having a chance to kick ball overseas? Dat's only half as dotish as the comparison to Madoff.  America known for a lot of things, in the grand scheme of things the Bernie Madoff scandal pales by comparison... limited to affecting only the US, and the rich in the US at that.  No one sees that as a reflection on "America".  But what is Trinidad most known for right at this moment?  The most corrupt man in all of corrupt FIFA being forced to resign in shame... and go back to his TnT Government job.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1037 on: July 06, 2011, 07:32:18 PM »
Ah coulda overlook de "Step Blatter" and de "Ben Hamman" if he wasn't talking so much shit otherwise.  Jack responsible for Caribbean footballers having a chance to kick ball overseas? Dat's only half as dotish as the comparison to Madoff.  America known for a lot of things, in the grand scheme of things the Bernie Madoff scandal pales by comparison... limited to affecting only the US, and the rich in the US at that.  No one sees that as a reflection on "America".  But what is Trinidad most known for right at this moment?  The most corrupt man in all of corrupt FIFA being forced to resign in shame... and go back to his TnT Government job.

Yeah, and I was willing to overlook the cock up about "playing Britain" and "English colonialism". He tried to be balanced, but really, how does it sound when he's telling stories about Jack bringing tickets and being wined & dined like kings? I very much doubt if that was Jacks money being spent.

I do believe Jack is generous, and I do believe he has put his own money into football. However, I feel because of that, he looked to regain the funds in other ways, and theres the issue. I'm sure Jack & TTFF's, CFU's and CONCACAF's funds are so entwined that money has been spent incorrectly. Whether or not it was meant in an honest way, its still wrong.

Offline elan

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1038 on: July 06, 2011, 07:47:12 PM »
So if a good man in an organization that does pillage and plunder innocent people then we should expect him to do the same. I always thought that a good person walk away from and exposed such underhandedness. No  ???  #notsosure
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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1039 on: July 07, 2011, 07:03:27 AM »
So if a good man in an organization that does pillage and plunder innocent people then we should expect him to do the same. I always thought that a good person walk away from and exposed such underhandedness. No  ???  #notsosure

But then, if a good man is a whistle blower, he is disrespected and his motives are questioned!! Look how people here saying the countries who confirmed they received brown envelopes just did it as part of a US/Mexico conspiricy!!

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1040 on: July 07, 2011, 09:31:35 AM »
So if a good man in an organization that does pillage and plunder innocent people then we should expect him to do the same. I always thought that a good person walk away from and exposed such underhandedness. No  ???  #notsosure

But then, if a good man is a whistle blower, he is disrespected and his motives are questioned!! Look how people here saying the countries who confirmed they received brown envelopes just did it as part of a US/Mexico conspiricy!!

Do you know for fact that any of those men are indeed "good"? 


This is the thing that disgusts me most about this whole situation... everyone knows how corrupt Jack is.  EVERYONE knows for fact how corrupt FIFA is.  Allyuh really want intelligent folks to believe that this is the first time something like this ever happened??  Why all the "whistleblowing" NOW... of all times?

Give me a frigging break.  People finding courage when it's convenient for them to do so and otherwise smart people tripping all over themselves to congratulate them for their acts of 'honesty'.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 08:51:16 PM by Bakes »

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1041 on: July 07, 2011, 12:12:25 PM »
So if a good man in an organization that does pillage and plunder innocent people then we should expect him to do the same. I always thought that a good person walk away from and exposed such underhandedness. No  ???  #notsosure

But then, if a good man is a whistle blower, he is disrespected and his motives are questioned!! Look how people here saying the countries who confirmed they received brown envelopes just did it as part of a US/Mexico conspiricy!!

I just dealing with the part of the article that talk about  - paraphrasing here " we know the type of mafia organization that FIFA is.....". I was not calling anyone in particular a good man. Just questioning as to how things operate in these fellas head when they rationalizing.
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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1042 on: July 07, 2011, 12:54:49 PM »
Bakes, I agree there are no innocent parties in this sordid mess. However, I would disagree that the people who are chirping and finding the "courage" to speak out are doing so out of mere convenience. I would say fuel that has powered their whistleblowing is "opportunity". Never before has the opportunity existed to make a charge stick.

Before the FIFA election and 2018/22 World Cup announcements, the opportunity to act upon Jack's numerous infractions (alleged) simply did not exist because he held too much power. Once Blatter stated this would be his last term as FIFA president and World Cups for the next two cycles have been selected, Jack's leverage and ultimate power significantly diminished. People who have held numerous grievances against Jack have been lining up for years and now is their time to act.



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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1043 on: July 07, 2011, 01:13:37 PM »
Bakes, I agree there are no innocent parties in this sordid mess. However, I would disagree that the people who are chirping and finding the "courage" to speak out are doing so out of mere convenience. I would say fuel that has powered their whistleblowing is "opportunity". Never before has the opportunity existed to make a charge stick.

Before the FIFA election and 2018/22 World Cup announcements, the opportunity to act upon Jack's numerous infractions (alleged) simply did not exist because he held too much power. Once Blatter stated this would be his last term as FIFA president and World Cups for the next two cycles have been selected, Jack's leverage and ultimate power significantly diminished. People who have held numerous grievances against Jack have been lining up for years and now is their time to act.




So....

Explain to me the difference between "convenience" as I have termed it, and "opportunity" as you have defined it?  I think we can both agree that any difference is mere semantic rather than substantive.  It is a fair assumption that some of these self-same "good" men saw corruption taking place before and turned a blind eye to it.  Whether that was because they sanctioned the corruption or because they felt impotent to act against it, that is just a rationalization of the degree of moral equivocating in which they engaged.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1044 on: July 07, 2011, 03:25:25 PM »
The motivation of the whistleblowers should not indicate whether or not they are not "good". The "goodness" of the people is almost irrelevant.

In fact, the difference between "convenience" and "opportunity" is that one is based on self-service while the other one is not. The CFU countries that turned on Jack may or may not benefit from his fall. In many ways, they may end up as regional pariahs for years to come. However, they saw the opportunity to speak up without worrying Warner's influence would cause them to be hung out to dry by the people they entrusted. Whereas, it is convenient for the British press to go out of their way to destroy Jack because they felt personally aggrieved and want satisfaction.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1045 on: July 07, 2011, 03:57:35 PM »
The motivation of the whistleblowers should not indicate whether or not they are not "good". The "goodness" of the people is almost irrelevant.

In fact, the difference between "convenience" and "opportunity" is that one is based on self-service while the other one is not. The CFU countries that turned on Jack may or may not benefit from his fall. In many ways, they may end up as regional pariahs for years to come. However, they saw the opportunity to speak up without worrying Warner's influence would cause them to be hung out to dry by the people they entrusted. Whereas, it is convenient for the British press to go out of their way to destroy Jack because they felt personally aggrieved and want satisfaction.

So in short, the "opportunity" to act has always been there (assuming this isn't the first time they've been aware of a bribe), it just wasn't convenient for them to do so before.  Your own take on the matter confirms as much, when they thought they would be "hung out to dry" they lacked (ignored) the opportunity to act.  Once they felt it was 'safe' to act without fearing Jack they suddenly found the opportunity... if that isn't "self service" then I don't know what is.

It is convenient for them to act now because they sensed that Jack was vulnerable.  Thanks for making my point.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1046 on: July 07, 2011, 04:38:49 PM »
No. Try to imagine that you could be wrong every once in a while and take this into consideration. The five CFU country representattives who blew the whistle seized upon the opportunity to stop Jack from continuing his errant ways EVEN THOUGH to do so may not have been convenient because their actions may come with a steep price to their own careers. Now, if I still haven't lost you; the English press acting on a purely self-serving level, find it convenient to initiate investigations against Jack because of his supposed role in the world cup fiasco.

So it is not about semantics, it's about context. Convenience and Opportunity are two distinct items. To make it CONVENIENT for you, check out dictionary.com then take the OPPORTUNITY to at least acknowledge that you aren't an obnoxious know it all.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 04:54:01 PM by tempo »

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1047 on: July 07, 2011, 04:55:23 PM »
No. Try to imagine that you could be wrong every once in a while and take this into consideration. The five CFU country representattives who blew the whistle seized upon the opportunity to stop Jack from continuing his errant ways EVEN THOUGH to do so may not have been convenient because their actions may come with a steep price to their own careers. Now, if I still haven't lost you; the English press acting on a purely self-serving level, find it convenient to initiate investigations against Jack because of his supposed role in the world cup fiasco.

So it is not about semantics, it's about context. Convenience and Opportunity are two distinct items. To make it CONVENIENT for you, check out dictionary.com then take the OPPORTUNITY to indicate that you aren't an obnoxious know it all.

Even my own sometimes vivid imagination cannot conjure up a scenario under which I am wrong on this one.  You're wasting your time with your errant barbs about consulting dictionary, so try yuh best.  All this other talk about the English press is what's known as a red herring, since yuh have yuh dictionary close at hand try looking it up.  Whether I come off to you as an "obnoxious know it all" matters as much to me as does the depth to which you normally insert your head up your ass... whatever makes you happy run with it.

If you any grasp of reading comprehension you'd note that I never said that there is no difference between "convenience" and "opportunity", but thanks for trying to explain... I'm sure somebody will find that useful.  What I did say is that there is no substantive difference between what I termed "convenience" and what you termed "opportunity"... if I haven't lost you, you should be able to appreciate that the focus of the "semantics" isn't on the terms themselves but rather on the substance of the two perspectives. 

Quote
Before the FIFA election and 2018/22 World Cup announcements, the opportunity to act upon Jack's numerous infractions (alleged) simply did not exist because he held too much power.

Assuming that they have witnessed corruption before (the premise upon which the entire discussion is founded) then the gist of your argument is that the CFU officials now have an "opportunity" to stand up to Jack because he's not as powerful as he has been in the past... to which I counter that they are merely acting now since it it convenient for them to do so, precisely because there are no recriminations to be felt.  You now try to switch tack to argue that they are acting even though there might be a penalty to pay.... quite different from your initial statement, but nice try.  The fact is that substantively the two viewpoints are the same, even if you fail to acknowledge that.  Now if that's still hard for you to follow then have the 5-year old next to you in class explain it for you.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:01:17 PM by Bakes »

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1048 on: July 07, 2011, 06:53:34 PM »
Ahh Bakes, you're off your meds again. The only red herring being offered is located in your absolutely stupid response.

You claim to have "never said" there is no difference between "convenience" and "opportunity" but then you go ahead and state there is "no substantive difference between what I termed "convenience" and what you(me) termed "opportunity".

You can compare my reading comprehension to a five year old all you want but you're just plain wrong on that piece of tata you wrote. 

Your original statement seemed to say that those who have recently decided to speak out against Jack are less than virtuous and are only chirping because it is convenient to do so. I disagreed and said the opportunity to speak out and get results availed itself, whether it was convenient or not. Jack can still hurt a number of people through his influence. That is the gist of my argument and why I think your belief on their motives is misplaced. The terms we favor are not interchangeable nor is your viewpoint the same as mine. In fact, I didn't even state your initial viewpoint was wrong; I just disagreed. But you are wrong about there not being a (substantive) difference between opportunity and convenience. Since it seems beneath you to refer to the dictionary here are the two definitions. Please read once you've taken your head out of your ass.

A. op·por·tu·ni·ty
   /ˌɒpərˈtunɪti, -ˈtyu-/ Show Spelled[op-er-too-ni-tee, -tyoo-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.an appropriate or favorable time or occasion: Their meeting afforded an opportunity to exchange views.
2.a situation or condition favorable for attainment of a goal.
3.a good position, chance, or prospect, as for advancement or success.

B.con·ven·ience
   /kənˈvinyəns/ Show Spelled[kuhn-veen-yuhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.the quality of being convenient;  suitability.
2.anything that saves or simplifies work, adds to one's ease or comfort, etc., as an appliance, utensil, or the like.
3.a convenient  situation or time: at your convenience.

There is nothing convenient about whistleblowing on a very powerful figure who still has friends.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #1049 on: July 07, 2011, 08:29:02 PM »
Bin Hammam hopes for a fair Fifa ethics hearing
Press Association
Jul 7, 2011 
The National

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/football/bin-hammam-hopes-for-a-fair-fifa-ethics-hearing


Mohamed Bin Hammam has expressed his hope that he will receive a fair hearing when he appears before Fifa's ethics committee on bribery charges later this month.

The 62-year-old Qatari has been suspended since May 29 while an investigation into the claims that he organised cash gifts totalling US million (Dh3.67m) to Caribbean Football Union (CFU) officials while campaigning for the Fifa presidency.

Bin Hammam said he was disappointed by continuous leaks of confidential information and hopes that the investigation has identified whether there had been attempts — directly or indirectly — by him to buy votes.

"I am still looking for and hoping to receive a fair hearing — one which will not be influenced by any political agenda or motivation," he said on his website.

"I hope that the decision will be made solely by the members of this committee and based solely on the facts presented and not based on assumptions or the wishes of people outside the committee."

Bin Hammam also repeated his earlier claim that "there has been a bias against me".

Fifa's ethics committee will meet on July 22 and 23 to hear the case against Bin Hammam, who had been the Asian Football Confederation president until his suspension.

The investigations by the committee has been completed and their report has been sent to the Qatari.

The ethics committee will also hear the cases of Debbie Minguell and Jason Sylvester, the two CFU officials who were also suspended along with the Fifa vice-president Jack Warner.

Warner is no longer under investigation following his resignation from football-related activities.

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