The Jack Warner Thread.

[MEP]

take a look at U.S. soccer....there might be some nepotism but as far as corruption there doesn't seem to be any....

[ZANDOLIE]

in a similar vein..

Is an uncorrupt football federation a realistic possibility

i am just throwing this out for discussion..

we all know jack warner is ah blatant ole tief.

we all know he is an unsavoury character and there is no need to rehash the never ending examples of his shameful and corrupt ways.

But what i want to know is whether there is another federation on earth (or political organization for that matter) that operates devoid of the corruption that we so despise.

Do you guys think a football administration really function, stand and prosper without that element of corruption and conduct all their affairs above board?

If you look at the way business is conducted in the football world, corruption has a prominent place. Look at the gift giving, borderline bribery and shady backroom deals that takes place around every World Cup bid. Look at the way clubs and agents conduct their affairs. Right here at home, look at the monetary benefits continuously given to us because of the votes we hold sway over. Even England's presence in Trinidad in less than a week reeks of corruption.
Alot of talk going around about the money the TTFF (and Jack by extension) stands to make off this game, and it seems like the prevailing sentiment is that the less money TTFF make the better. But money makes the world go round not so? Thats why some people have no problem with Jack tiefing he portion once we get our historic, high profile game and some money into our coffers as a plus.

Ever the optimist, I personally think its entirely possible to have a legit and above board Federation and FPATT injects hope for this.

But what do you guys think?

Excelent perspective, Great post. But the FIFA ethos itself with its poor accountability, transparency, governance and monopolistic big contract schemes encourages the emergence of the worst kind of greed and avarice. In a way FIFA made Jack because its  structures allowed him to find opportunities to feed the less savoury aspects of his character. And for all the Vampire and Soucouyant talk, I wonder how many of us would succumb to the same temptations FIFA has given Jack.

In fact to refuse all that easy money would be indicative either of a Christ-like character or extreme stupidity. And Jack is neither of those things. Under the current global football regimen only the smaller federations with no/little in money to make are likely to act in an ethical manner.

IMO the only way to get FIFA or its major participating federations to be "above board" is to cut out the prospect of big $$$ profiteering. But that would require a return to community/amateur based football, and that horse done bolt from the gate long time.

take a look at U.S. soccer....there might be some nepotism but as far as corruption there doesn't seem to be any....

The US has a long heritage of stakeholder participation in most aspects of sport and politics and the governance systems in general are stronger. That is my guess as to why we may not hear about corruption there.

BUT U.S. soccer  is overseen by CONCACAF which is ruled by Jack. So likely SOMETHING have to be going on. It might be just that the US may be well versed at keeping respectable appearences.

[MEP]

Don't get it wrong..Jack does not control the U.S. or Mexico....as long as they are happy he can do whatever he wants. The U.S. has invested millions and the day they don't qualify for the world cup look for jack to be gone.....

[Quags]

in a similar vein..

Is an uncorrupt football federation a realistic possibility

i am just throwing this out for discussion..

we all know jack warner is ah blatant ole tief.

we all know he is an unsavoury character and there is no need to rehash the never ending examples of his shameful and corrupt ways.

But what i want to know is whether there is another federation on earth (or political organization for that matter) that operates devoid of the corruption that we so despise.

Do you guys think a football administration really function, stand and prosper without that element of corruption and conduct all their affairs above board?

If you look at the way business is conducted in the football world, corruption has a prominent place. Look at the gift giving, borderline bribery and shady backroom deals that takes place around every World Cup bid. Look at the way clubs and agents conduct their affairs. Right here at home, look at the monetary benefits continuously given to us because of the votes we hold sway over. Even England's presence in Trinidad in less than a week reeks of corruption.

Alot of talk going around about the money the TTFF (and Jack by extension) stands to make off this game, and it seems like the prevailing sentiment is that the less money TTFF make the better. But money makes the world go round not so?  Thats why some people have no problem with Jack tiefing he portion once we get our historic, high profile game and some money into our coffers as a plus.

Ever the optimist, I personally think its entirely possible to have a legit and above board Federation and FPATT injects hope for this.

But what do you guys think?

It might have all those shinanigans going on  in all sports ....BUT nothing like what going orn in trini .I prefer to have anyone of the leaders of any other carribbean federation incharge of our football than Jack .Jack all about Jack and his wallet,and he uses and abuses our talent cause he know we ave more coming ,even doh he does nothing to develop it .But he atleast expose how corrupt Fifa is ,to still have him so protected.
 Jack is just a gloried promoter of games ,he does nothing to help develop the game or young players .I surprise he didn t get like Don King and start an agency,for our players .
Actually jack smarter than Don King cause king dumb enough to pay his players , Jack over come this obsticle by draping his company with the flag ,so is an honour really ,it really is the perfect scam ,he really is a pro fessional Con artist.

[andre samuel]

If yuh uncle take yuh in, feed yuh, clothe yuh, send yuh to skool, Does that mean  he can bull yuh too ?

I ask this question in response to dis..

Hmmmm, that is an toughy!! lol

Is it brand name clothes, a top class university and plenty nice food?

What are the options?  I only getting bull once every four years? I wouldnt have to eat anyting otherwise?

We should do a anonymous poll..........lol

ah love it!!

ps, good one gilbert!!

[spideybuff]

Pro's  ??

[Giggsy's Chestwig]

Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

[weary1969]

Yez but wit a size of TNT 1 iz 2 much

[spideybuff]

Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

How dare you debase Jack Warner like that !! True there are many corrupt officials in a corrupt organisation, but Jack is top of the class eh. Doh get tie up.
Only Sepp could rival Jack in terms of his power...

And his rantings are a clear representation of his power and his corruption. He could say what he want, when he want, where he want, to who he want no matter how bizarre.

U seeing other FIFA officials doing that? Nope...cause they not in Jack class.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what? He make less money than "Jack's son" did eh...
but he get punished.

Jack is no mere villian padna...
 

[weary1969]

Spidey d man is d top of d mountain it is alleged dat he teach Havelange d ropes

[marcus]

If yuh uncle take yuh in, feed yuh, clothe yuh, send yuh to skool, Does that mean  he can bull yuh too ?

I ask this question in response to dis..

Hmmmm, that is an toughy!! lol

Is it brand name clothes, a top class university and plenty nice food?

What are the options?  I only getting bull once every four years? I wouldnt have to eat anyting otherwise?

We should do a anonymous poll..........lol

ah love it!!

ps, good one gilbert!!

Ah all men is kicks yes... Andre actually rationalizing! haha
thanks for the replies fellas

It seems the general consensus implied by the majority of replies is that Jack is bad, done deal we know, but many have not tackled the actual question...  are we better off with him or without him? and why?

[Giggsy's Chestwig]

Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

How dare you debase Jack Warner like that !! True there are many corrupt officials in a corrupt organisation, but Jack is top of the class eh. Doh get tie up.
Only Sepp could rival Jack in terms of his power...

And his rantings are a clear representation of his power and his corruption. He could say what he want, when he want, where he want, to who he want no matter how bizarre.

U seeing other FIFA officials doing that? Nope...cause they not in Jack class.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what? He make less money than "Jack's son" did eh...
but he get punished.

Jack is no mere villian padna...
 

So now we're going to have a pissing contest as to who's the bigger villain and who is the most corrupt?

You seem proud of the fact that Jack Warner is as bent as they come.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what?

And rightly so.

Yet Warner is still there even after everything he did with regards to Simpaul etc.

And we're arguing as to whether FIFA are corrupt or not? Jack went unpunished purely because of his position. But you seem to be one of those with that Trini mentality where a Trini in a high position has to be better than everyone at anything even in terms of corruptions and shady dealings.

I'm sure you're proud.

[WestCoast]

aye Venerable One, I feel that SpideyBuff was just pointing out how powerful jackula has become in FIFA and I also believe that Sepp is only just barely more powerful than jackula.
dont forget he cut his teeth under Dr. João Havelange, the man who made curruption in FIFA a science.

[Andre]

some people like jack.

http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=36598.0

[ttcom]

Pro: He's Trinidadian.

Cons: Total Jack ASS

[Bakes]

BUT U.S. soccer  is overseen by CONCACAF which is ruled by Jack. So likely SOMETHING have to be going on. It might be just that the US may be well versed at keeping respectable appearences.

US soccer is NOT overseen by CONCACAF.  Unlike TnT there is greater transparency in their football and the USSF is completely independent of CONCACAF.  Doesn't mean that Blazer isn't pulling strings to benefit the US, but saying that CONCACAF oversees them is an overstatement.  I sense that that's not quite what you meant to say.

[Bakes]

Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

How dare you debase Jack Warner like that !! True there are many corrupt officials in a corrupt organisation, but Jack is top of the class eh. Doh get tie up.
Only Sepp could rival Jack in terms of his power...

And his rantings are a clear representation of his power and his corruption. He could say what he want, when he want, where he want, to who he want no matter how bizarre.

U seeing other FIFA officials doing that? Nope...cause they not in Jack class.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what? He make less money than "Jack's son" did eh...
but he get punished.

Jack is no mere villian padna...
 

So now we're going to have a pissing contest as to who's the bigger villain and who is the most corrupt?

You seem proud of the fact that Jack Warner is as bent as they come.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what?

And rightly so.

Yet Warner is still there even after everything he did with regards to Simpaul etc.

And we're arguing as to whether FIFA are corrupt or not? Jack went unpunished purely because of his position. But you seem to be one of those with that Trini mentality where a Trini in a high position has to be better than everyone at anything even in terms of corruptions and shady dealings.

I'm sure you're proud.

You juss reach pardna...yuh might want to siddung and learn a couple of the forum personalities before yuh start taking everybody post so literal.

[Bakes]

take a look at U.S. soccer....there might be some nepotism but as far as corruption there doesn't seem to be any....

'Seem' being the operative word... Chuck Blazer is, after all Jack's close confidante w/in CONCACAF. Jack brings and has brought a lot of good to local football...don't ask me to enumerate and don't ask me to justify.  I don't care to go into it.

Suffice to say there's a lot of good and plenty bad where Jack is concerned.

[pardners]

I say we better off without Jack.

I see all them other CONCACAF teams doing pretty well without Jack and no doubt we could do the same.

I think is because of Jack we in the situation we are in at present.  Look how we feeling, that for England to come here is a big thing, when that shouldn't be.  That eh no biggy in the US or Mexico.  As a matter of fact...right now if the US or Mexico come here is a big thing for we...why ?

Yuh have to remember that whilst Jack uses his clout...Camps have none, possibly because he is being stifled by Jack at all corners.  He probably like it so too, because his name doh really get call in any bachanal, mainly Jack's, so that working for him.  The point I trying to make is that maybe if TTFF had a boss with balls, he mighta be able to rounds up Italy to come and play here.

Once we get rid of Jack and his administration, and a new vibrant and working admin take over, our team will make a natural progression to be amongst the ranks of USA and Mexico et al, within a couple years time.  By then games against England and the likes will become the norm, and we will not feel like is a handout or that we 'boss' doing a good thing for we.

We would get a chance to see accountability and monies going towards the development programs for which it was intended.  The best coaches coming and picking the teams they want to, not what is told to them.  You will not see one 'football family' controlling national teams and benefitting of player contracts.  You will always see the best NT on display at all times.

The country will unite like never before, we will always be in the WCs and...and...and...just the dream making me feel to 

[dreamer]

Well put together points pardners with a fresh perspective. Dah one register good. 

[Saywha]

I didn't even want to open this thread. . .

If the Devil give you a present is he good??? Is it okay to work with him???

We don't negotiate with terrorists, nor devils.

Marcus, i understand you are trying to ask a legit question and was hoping for unbaised viewpoints, but I really like how Cocorite and O'connorg (even tho quite descriptive) put it because in the end this is what matters.

"If the Devil give you a present is he good??? Is it okay to work with him???"

True because of Jack we were able to experience certain things and if there is no more Jack in Fifa we probably will have to fight very hard to reach another WC. But it is not an impossible task to reach WC with hard work, dedication and real skill on our part without Uncle Jack. 

I rather a fair, uncorrupt person with some bit of integrity any day to help us get to many WCs than a corrupt person taking all that he could get for heself and mamaguying the people of T&T.
Look at dem fellas like Birche (who did not have to represent us) , Sancho and others who were blatantly disregarded just because they were fighting to get THEIR money that THEY rightly deserved.

 Now anybody who thinks Jack is good put yourself in their position and think how you would feel if you were screwed over by someone who did so much good for the country that in de end he only studying to fill he pocket and keep everyone else under him.
If your answer to Cocorite and O'connorg question is "yes", then you may be in de same boat as Jack.

So my viewpoint is - outside with Jack!

 

[Brownsugar]

Camps have none, possibly because he is being stifled by Jack at all corners.  He probably like it so too, because his name doh really get call in any bachanal, mainly Jack's, so that working for him.  The point I trying to make is that maybe if TTFF had a boss with balls, he mighta be able to rounds up Italy to come and play here.

Look one man who go answer Oconnorg question in de affirmative....

As for de original question....Jack throw yuh frame!!!....

[MEP]

take a look at U.S. soccer....there might be some nepotism but as far as corruption there doesn't seem to be any....

'Seem' being the operative word... Chuck Blazer is, after all Jack's close confidante w/in CONCACAF. Jack brings and has brought a lot of good to local football...don't ask me to enumerate and don't ask me to justify.  I don't care to go into it.

Suffice to say there's a lot of good and plenty bad where Jack is concerned.

What good has he brought to TnT soccer? Compare the development of US soccer and TnT soccer since 90 where at the time we had a better national structure...and after you do that tell me how much good has he done for our game...

[ZANDOLIE]

BUT U.S. soccer  is overseen by CONCACAF which is ruled by Jack. So likely SOMETHING have to be going on. It might be just that the US may be well versed at keeping respectable appearences.

US soccer is NOT overseen by CONCACAF.  Unlike TnT there is greater transparency in their football and the USSF is completely independent of CONCACAF.  Doesn't mean that Blazer isn't pulling strings to benefit the US, but saying that CONCACAF oversees them is an overstatement.  I sense that that's not quite what you meant to say.

The term "operates under the umbrella of CONCACAF" was my intended meaning. Coming from an uninformed T&T perspective I automatically link CONCACAF more strongly to its memeber federations because of Warner's long reach into the affairs of the TTFF and his bullying of the Dominican federation.

Come to think of it has Jack been implicated in shady deals with other feds like Panama or Mexico?

[Bakes]

I say we better off without Jack.

I see all them other CONCACAF teams doing pretty well without Jack and no doubt we could do the same.

I think is because of Jack we in the situation we are in at present.  Look how we feeling, that for England to come here is a big thing, when that shouldn't be.  That eh no biggy in the US or Mexico.  As a matter of fact...right now if the US or Mexico come here is a big thing for we...why ?

Yuh have to remember that whilst Jack uses his clout...Camps have none, possibly because he is being stifled by Jack at all corners.  He probably like it so too, because his name doh really get call in any bachanal, mainly Jack's, so that working for him.  The point I trying to make is that maybe if TTFF had a boss with balls, he mighta be able to rounds up Italy to come and play here.

Once we get rid of Jack and his administration, and a new vibrant and working admin take over, our team will make a natural progression to be amongst the ranks of USA and Mexico et al, within a couple years time.  By then games against England and the likes will become the norm, and we will not feel like is a handout or that we 'boss' doing a good thing for we.

We would get a chance to see accountability and monies going towards the development programs for which it was intended.  The best coaches coming and picking the teams they want to, not what is told to them.  You will not see one 'football family' controlling national teams and benefitting of player contracts.  You will always see the best NT on display at all times.

The country will unite like never before, we will always be in the WCs and...and...and...just the dream making me feel to 

Pardners, you make some good points...but even the Devil needs an advocate at times so I'll step up b/c I like how the discussion going.

1. To say that all the other CONCACAF teams are doing well w/o a "Jack" and so we also will do well is beyond speculative.  The only CONCACAF teams doing even remotely "well" are Mexico and the US...at least with any basis of consistency.  Remove Jack from the local scenario and it is unlikely that we'd come even within spitting distance of matching the type of consistency and success that those two teams enjoy.  They've been blessed with resources (manpower and capital) the likes of which have are unseen anywhere else in CONCACAF.

2. To imply that England playing TnT should be no biggie is to lose sight of the fact that England playing anyone else in CONCACAF would be a huge deal.  Simply put, CONCACAF outside of the US and Mexico is barely worth global mention.  Your argument seems premised on the notion that it should be a given that TnT is up there with Mexico, that is entirely too presumptive a position to seriously merit consideration.

3. Camps has no clout...but outside of Europe, which domestic Federation head enjoys any real kinda clout?  Even within Europe not too many Federation heads are known...let alone to the extent as to grant them 'clout'.  Even if we had a different administration there's no guarantee we could pull ah team like Italy...I mean, how often they even play friendlies against non-European foes?

4. With or without Jack we'd we guaranteed nothing.  To say that we'd be perennial CONCACAF powers (to the point that we always in World Cups)... well I dunno where you'd even start with that.  To begin with w/o Jack CONCACAF might still only have one sure spot...let alone 3 1/2- 4 spots we enjoy now.  So unless your position is that w/o Jack we'd consistently be ahead of the US and Mexico then your argument is unpursuasive.

5. Where we would agree is that there LIKELY would be greater transparency and more money for youth development etc.  You also won't have a dictatorship situation (again, "likely" must be the preface here) where one family controlling local football as you put it...and coaches may have greater autonomy.

[Bakes]

take a look at U.S. soccer....there might be some nepotism but as far as corruption there doesn't seem to be any....

'Seem' being the operative word... Chuck Blazer is, after all Jack's close confidante w/in CONCACAF. Jack brings and has brought a lot of good to local football...don't ask me to enumerate and don't ask me to justify.  I don't care to go into it.

Suffice to say there's a lot of good and plenty bad where Jack is concerned.

What good has he brought to TnT soccer? Compare the development of US soccer and TnT soccer since 90 where at the time we had a better national structure...and after you do that tell me how much good has he done for our game...

Where was our football before Jack? 

I'm not saying he's 100% responsible for our success to date, but neither is he 100% responsible for our lack of success to date.  From a tangible standpoint he has brought a heightened global awareness to TnT football (most of it in a positive way, some negative), in part from positioning us thru his influence, to host events like the Under-17 World Cup. 

Had it not been for his influence we still would be w/o a World Cup appearance to our names...without a doubt that has raised our global profile, and an England coming to Trinidad to play a game wouldn't be quite as ludicrous as some around the world are making it seem.  In other words, if you think the outcry regarding this trip has been loud...imagine the outcry had England come play a nothing TnT team w/o a WC to it's resume.

Like Pardners, you make the comparison to the US...seemingly positing the notion that us being better than the US is somehow a birthright, stolen from us by Warner.  I'm not sure what your rationale is for such a presumption...if it's just the usual blind jealousy/hatred for US Soccer that frequently rears its head on this board...or if there's something more substantial behind your argument.  The talent pool that the US is drawing from is infinitely larger than ours...and please don't come with the talk that the US is not a footballing nation.  Per capita that may be true compared to many other countries...but in terms of sheer numbers, the interest in the sport in the US renders that argument baseless.

So the US passing us in terms of footballing success is hardly Jack's fault, chances are that there superior resources would have led to them surpassing us regardless.  I would readily concede that had more been put into development of our football that we'd be better than we are currently, but even a 'better' TnT national program does not carry with it any guarantee that we'd be anywhere ahead of either the US or Mexico.

[Bakes]

BUT U.S. soccer  is overseen by CONCACAF which is ruled by Jack. So likely SOMETHING have to be going on. It might be just that the US may be well versed at keeping respectable appearences.

US soccer is NOT overseen by CONCACAF.  Unlike TnT there is greater transparency in their football and the USSF is completely independent of CONCACAF.  Doesn't mean that Blazer isn't pulling strings to benefit the US, but saying that CONCACAF oversees them is an overstatement.  I sense that that's not quite what you meant to say.

The term "operates under the umbrella of CONCACAF" was my intended meaning. Coming from an uninformed T&T perspective I automatically link CONCACAF more strongly to its memeber federations because of Warner's long reach into the affairs of the TTFF and his bullying of the Dominican federation.

Come to think of it has Jack been implicated in shady deals with other feds like Panama or Mexico?

Still not sure that I follow you.

[ZANDOLIE]

Basically I did not realize that the USSF was completely independent of CONCACAF. I thought that Warner would be the puppet master in that federation just as he is in TTFF, just to a lesser extent.

The question I had asked was whether Warner has ever been implicated in bobol in other federations? I recall a discussion on this board about him negotiating TV rights to Mexico/T&T games at exorbitant profit.

[Bakes]

Basically I did not realize that the USSF was completely independent of CONCACAF. I thought that Warner would be the puppet master in that federation just as he is in TTFF, just to a lesser extent.

The question I had asked was whether Warner has ever been implicated in bobol in other federations? I recall a discussion on this board about him negotiating TV rights to Mexico/T&T games at exorbitant profit.

Oho...nah, Bob Gansler is in charge of the USSF and they doh really have much to do with Warner.  All that is done thru Chuck Blazer the US rep to CONCACAF.

Not sure of the answer to the other part of your question though.

[MEP]

There is a symbiotic relationship between the USSF and Blazer.....the USSF grew because they got help from Blazer but they are at a point where his replacement would not affect their growth and output. It's a business relationship that although tenuous works well for the most part.