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Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #150 on: June 09, 2008, 10:35:51 PM »
Pro..fessional thief
Con..vict in the making





:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotf: :rotfl:

It does take me a very, very long time to open any jackula thread, but this was very well worth it. I cyah stop laughing! This has to be one of the funniest, most original and precise descriptions of dat stinkin' man that I have ever seen or heard!!   


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #151 on: June 09, 2008, 10:45:19 PM »
If yuh uncle take yuh in, feed yuh, clothe yuh, send yuh to skool, Does that mean  he can bull yuh too ?

I ask this question in response to dis..

The biggest problem with this set-up, oconnorg, is that we as a people know that jack bullin we, yet we steady cockin' up we ass to take de jammin' EVERY TIME. 


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline oconnorg

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2008, 11:31:50 PM »
If yuh uncle take yuh in, feed yuh, clothe yuh, send yuh to skool, Does that mean  he can bull yuh too ?

I ask this question in response to dis..

The biggest problem with this set-up, oconnorg, is that we as a people know that jack bullin we, yet we steady cockin' up we ass to take de jammin' EVERY TIME. 

And we even handing him de greeease to bull we too..

Ah boy eh!!
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Offline Blue

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #153 on: June 10, 2008, 01:14:10 AM »
Pros:

- Negotiated a 4th place playoff against Asia. Otherwise we would never have made World Cup.
- Nuff Trini players got work permits in England d last time England was bidding (for WC 2006).
- England friendly in Trinidad. Would never have happened without Jack.

Cons:

- D usual

Offline kentsoulman

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #154 on: June 10, 2008, 04:18:08 AM »
I'm trying to put this whole thing in perspective.

If you took 2 policemen in the USA.

The local traders depend on these cops to protect their businesses.

Both are great cops and make loads of arrests, and everyone feels safe.

Cop no 1 stops for breakfast at Dunkin Donuts every day. When he goes to pay, the owner says "this is on me, because you're doing a great job"

Cop no 2 gets a drive thru McDs and stops outside the BMW dealership. He tells the owner that he can take special care of him. He can patrol more regularly. The problem is, that the Ford dealer has just offered him a 50% discount on a new car. So, Mr BMW offers the cop the same deal.

Cop No 1 has lunch at the diner. They always give him a free dessert and coffee.

Cop No 2 doesn't eat lunch. He has a cold beer at the 5* restaurant up the road. Their exclusive clientel get trouble from the local gang hanging around in the evening. Cop No 2 says he knows these kids. He'll put a lot of pressure on them and move them down the road where the other posh restaurant is. But he'll need to give them a financial persuader. So the restaurant owner agrees to give the cop $500 per month "to buy off the gang" Cop2 says, "I'll be passing by with my wife for a meal once a month on the house. I'll collect the money then"

You can continue with this scenario into infinity. The point is this:

Everybody gets a little sweetner now and again. Whether  its in gratitude for a job well done (like a tip) or its an incentive to get good service. Technically its corruption, but in reality people don't mind as long as its deserved and reasonable.

Obviously, Jack has gone the route of the 2nd cop. People get greedy.

Jack has done great things for T&T, the Caribbean and CONCACAF. But he now thinks he can take whatever he wants and he doesn't even need to hide it!

If the whole administration was removed, it would be hard for a while. But I bet that the govt would throw themselves behind the new administration. Sponsors would come on board. There would be more money, because its not being syphoned off.

And, you never know, when world football sees the sacrifices T&T have made to rid the world of Mr Warner, you may even see a few major countries offer a B international as a reward.     

Offline andre samuel

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #155 on: June 10, 2008, 05:53:41 AM »
I want to be honest here and state that at this moment, we would not be better off without jack warner.

Jack has done alot for Trinidad and Tobago football.  He is corrupt and deceitful, but he has contributed to our game in more ways than any player can.

Without Jack Warner, we would have had no chance to go to any world cup, or see a world cup (U17) hosted in our country.

Concacaf has 3.5 World Cup spots because of jack warner because we certainly do not deserve it.  Concacaf never even had a semi finalist. 

Imagine the Concacaf team in 2006 qualifying had to travel to Asia while the South American team had to travel to Oceania.  That was all Jack Warner and it was done to give TnT its best chance to qualify.

Love him or hate him, Leo Benhakker, Ian Potterfield, Renee Simoes etc would have never come to these shores if it was left up to the Govt.

Men of integrity in high positions are few and far between and JWarner isnt one of them, but at least i can say that our football has benefited from him.

He paid for the tours for all our women's teams and our U17 teams during their world cup qualification.  Where was the govt?  It is because the response of the govt in these sporting matters make me realise that we NEED him and need him badly.

He is a villan, but we would not even be sure to beat Bermuda without him!!

ah love it!!

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Offline Giggsy's Chestwig

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #156 on: June 10, 2008, 07:09:13 AM »
Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

How dare you debase Jack Warner like that !! True there are many corrupt officials in a corrupt organisation, but Jack is top of the class eh. Doh get tie up.
Only Sepp could rival Jack in terms of his power...

And his rantings are a clear representation of his power and his corruption. He could say what he want, when he want, where he want, to who he want no matter how bizarre.

U seeing other FIFA officials doing that? Nope...cause they not in Jack class.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what? He make less money than "Jack's son" did eh...
but he get punished.

Jack is no mere villian padna...
 


So now we're going to have a pissing contest as to who's the bigger villain and who is the most corrupt?

You seem proud of the fact that Jack Warner is as bent as they come.

Quote
U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what?

And rightly so.

Yet Warner is still there even after everything he did with regards to Simpaul etc.

And we're arguing as to whether FIFA are corrupt or not? Jack went unpunished purely because of his position. But you seem to be one of those with that Trini mentality where a Trini in a high position has to be better than everyone at anything even in terms of corruptions and shady dealings.

I'm sure you're proud.

You juss reach pardna...yuh might want to siddung and learn a couple of the forum personalities before yuh start taking everybody post so literal.

So this forum has its fair share of idiots also? Ok, point taken.

Offline dinho

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #157 on: June 10, 2008, 07:21:48 AM »
Warner merely a corrupt official of an extremely corrupt organisation.

There are a hundred Jack Warners at FIFA.

He also needs to keep his mouth shut, a lot of his rantings border on the bizarre.

How dare you debase Jack Warner like that !! True there are many corrupt officials in a corrupt organisation, but Jack is top of the class eh. Doh get tie up.
Only Sepp could rival Jack in terms of his power...

And his rantings are a clear representation of his power and his corruption. He could say what he want, when he want, where he want, to who he want no matter how bizarre.

U seeing other FIFA officials doing that? Nope...cause they not in Jack class.

U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what? He make less money than "Jack's son" did eh...
but he get punished.

Jack is no mere villian padna...
 


So now we're going to have a pissing contest as to who's the bigger villain and who is the most corrupt?

You seem proud of the fact that Jack Warner is as bent as they come.

Quote
U didn hear about the African president who get kick out of FIFA for the ticket scandal in the last world cup or what?

And rightly so.

Yet Warner is still there even after everything he did with regards to Simpaul etc.

And we're arguing as to whether FIFA are corrupt or not? Jack went unpunished purely because of his position. But you seem to be one of those with that Trini mentality where a Trini in a high position has to be better than everyone at anything even in terms of corruptions and shady dealings.

I'm sure you're proud.

You juss reach pardna...yuh might want to siddung and learn a couple of the forum personalities before yuh start taking everybody post so literal.

So this forum has its fair share of idiots also? Ok, point taken.

 :rotfl:  you learning fast.
         

Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #158 on: June 10, 2008, 07:30:03 AM »
I want to be honest here and state that at this moment, we would not be better off without jack warner.

Jack has done alot for Trinidad and Tobago football.  He is corrupt and deceitful, but he has contributed to our game in more ways than any player can.

Without Jack Warner, we would have had no chance to go to any world cup, or see a world cup (U17) hosted in our country.

Concacaf has 3.5 World Cup spots because of jack warner because we certainly do not deserve it.  Concacaf never even had a semi finalist. 

Imagine the Concacaf team in 2006 qualifying had to travel to Asia while the South American team had to travel to Oceania.  That was all Jack Warner and it was done to give TnT its best chance to qualify.

Love him or hate him, Leo Benhakker, Ian Potterfield, Renee Simoes etc would have never come to these shores if it was left up to the Govt.

Men of integrity in high positions are few and far between and JWarner isnt one of them, but at least i can say that our football has benefited from him.

He paid for the tours for all our women's teams and our U17 teams during their world cup qualification.  Where was the govt?  It is because the response of the govt in these sporting matters make me realise that we NEED him and need him badly.

He is a villan, but we would not even be sure to beat Bermuda without him!!

ah love it!!



Andre... the only thing I disagree with is you depositing the responsibility for these things at the doorstep of the government.  Look at other FIFA nations, football isn't the responsibility of the respective local governments it is the responsibility of the local federation.  So yeah, give Jack credit if yuh want but yuh cyah really say he picking up some slack that the government let go...Jack pick up de slack dat he own TTFF let go.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 07:34:58 AM by Bake n Shark »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #159 on: June 10, 2008, 07:34:07 AM »
So this forum has its fair share of idiots also? Ok, point taken.
Lol...nah dred, it simply means that some men (in this case Spidey) have an understated sense of sarcasm that might be lost on many, especially the unfamiliar.

Offline superoli

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2008, 07:35:08 AM »
I find a lot of people also ignore what copuld have been done for T&T had we had a fair and honest rep at Concacaf.
Imagine if we had a proper youth academy and development program since 1989 ? I know these are what ifs but I think people should recognise Jack does mostly everything for his own pocket and sometmes a little for the nation.

We could have been so much better now as well .....but I guess we will never know
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Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2008, 08:33:45 AM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti  made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

All we needed before was passion for the game on the part of players and fans. The players have passion but when the powers that be make changes to bring the fans back the game we will  make WCs without Jacks help.
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Offline trinikev

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2008, 08:51:20 AM »
I want to be honest here and state that at this moment, we would not be better off without jack warner.

Jack has done alot for Trinidad and Tobago football.  He is corrupt and deceitful, but he has contributed to our game in more ways than any player can.

Without Jack Warner, we would have had no chance to go to any world cup, or see a world cup (U17) hosted in our country.

Concacaf has 3.5 World Cup spots because of jack warner because we certainly do not deserve it.  Concacaf never even had a semi finalist. 

Imagine the Concacaf team in 2006 qualifying had to travel to Asia while the South American team had to travel to Oceania.  That was all Jack Warner and it was done to give TnT its best chance to qualify.

Love him or hate him, Leo Benhakker, Ian Potterfield, Renee Simoes etc would have never come to these shores if it was left up to the Govt.

Men of integrity in high positions are few and far between and JWarner isnt one of them, but at least i can say that our football has benefited from him.

He paid for the tours for all our women's teams and our U17 teams during their world cup qualification.  Where was the govt?  It is because the response of the govt in these sporting matters make me realise that we NEED him and need him badly.

He is a villan, but we would not even be sure to beat Bermuda without him!!

ah love it!!



Andre... the only thing I disagree with is you depositing the responsibility for these things at the doorstep of the government.  Look at other FIFA nations, football isn't the responsibility of the respective local governments it is the responsibility of the local federation.  So yeah, give Jack credit if yuh want but yuh cyah really say he picking up some slack that the government let go...Jack pick up de slack dat he own TTFF let go.

True, also i believe it is against FIFA regulations for there to be gov't influence in the football federation, as it is supposed to be a private entity. The gov't has absolutely no responsibility in this case, it is all on the TTFF.
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Offline superoli

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2008, 09:12:57 AM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

thanks people forget how far we went without that tiefing good for nothing.
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Offline WestCoast

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #164 on: June 10, 2008, 09:46:40 AM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti  made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

All we needed before was passion for the game on the part of players and fans. The players have passion but when the powers that be make changes to bring the fans back the game we will  make WCs without Jacks help.
See Post...................DAT is Post
Good points Zandoh

in fact some argue that
1) Jack and he predecessors may have hindered our chances in 73
2) Jack DEFINITELY HINDERED our chances in 89
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:01:10 AM by WestCoast »
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Offline Socafan

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2008, 10:03:34 AM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti  made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

All we needed before was passion for the game on the part of players and fans. The players have passion but when the powers that be make changes to bring the fans back the game we will  make WCs without Jacks help.

EXACTLY.... I think people who saying Jack has been good for our football either mixing up wider CONCACAF matters with local football, or just relatively recently start following the national team and local ball.

I always say, Jack has done CONCACAF the world of good. Before under dem Mexican it was just only all about Mexico. Look at CONCACAF  now. Other people in the world actually know what CONCACAF is. I would say he has helped there. He could keep that.

But he need to eff off of Trini football. While CONCACAF has improved, Trini football has NEVER BEEN AS BAD AS IT HAS BEEN UNDER SO MUCH DIRECT INFLUENCE OF JACK WARNER AND TTFF. Some men just eh know the size and kinds of crowds that use to come out to see football. The passion for the North/South Classic. The proleague is a joke compared to past club rivalry. The TTFF has discouraged rather than encouraged, local active participation in football by so many players, fans and coaches it is ridiculous. The lack of professionalism is downright embarrassing.

All who supporting Jack Warner as being good for Trinidad football consider this, The TTFF is to Trinidad what the USSF is to the USA. In the same time frame from 1989 to now(cause ah realize apparently dais when nuff man start following the national team), compare the progress of both federations regarding the sport in their respective countries and see if you still believe Warner is good for TNT ball.

I'll give you a hint, nobody is calling the USSF a "Tinpot outfit"
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:08:02 AM by Socafan »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2008, 10:13:03 AM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti  made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

All we needed before was passion for the game on the part of players and fans. The players have passion but when the powers that be make changes to bring the fans back the game we will  make WCs without Jacks help.

Is it really that hard to follow???


Without Jack CONCACAF would still only have 1...possibly two spots.  Without Jack there would have been no 3rd spot for Jamaica to get in 98...and no 4th spot for TnT to get in 2006.  SO..... unless TnT became a better team than either the US or Mexico, there is no way we would have gotten to the WC, and by every objective measure those two teams VERY LIKELY would have progressed to the point that they're now at inspite of whatever other progress we made.  Think of it this way...three cars racing down the track, each at 100 mph.  Cars 1 and 2 have a two- car lead on car three.  Unless car three travels faster than the other two cars it's not going to catch, let alone pass the two leaders.  If there are only two prizes (WC berths) then car three will never get a prize unless it finishes ahead of the two leaders.

Another way is to create a third...and even a fourth prize, that way even though car three still finishes behind the other two, it too gets a prize.  Guess who created that third/fourth prize?  Unless you're realistically arguing that Jack held back our development to the point that he prevented us from passing the US/Mexico...we were never going to the World Cup.

Not that hard.

Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2008, 10:50:39 AM »
NOBODY knows what T&T football would have been like without jackula.  Some of us are just a little more willing to take whatever shaft jack is willing to give for the sake of some short term enjoyment.  As if England coming to T&T is really going to do for T&T football what a few well placed developmental programs could not have done for it already.I really like the kinda logic allyuh football intelectuals does put forth for the sake of arguing.  Men will watch jackula treat us and our players like shit, treat so many of our coaches like shit, misappropriate all the funds that T&T football produces, and be happy to go in a nice brand new beat-up stadium to watch Enland lollygag while they on vacation.  Talk about progress. 

  The World Cup Tournament has grown over the years, and If I am not mistaken, at one point it was only a 16-nation tournament that has now expanded to 32.  The inevitability of more berths for all of the federations seems apparent to me.  T&T is a nation that has produced the likes of Warren Archibald, Earl Carter, Steve Joseph and many, many more men who can hold their own at the international level without the benefit of a proper youth development program in our country.  I can only imagine how many more players like them we would have produced and how well we would be competing for that THIRD SPOT (fack a tree point 5)
if we DID have one.  jackula ain't de only one who holding T&T football ransom, but I will gladly gamble with what we could have had going for us without jack.  My ass woulda STILL be in Germany having a good time in '06! 


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline Lower St. John

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2008, 10:52:23 AM »
Without Jack CONCACAF would still only have 1...possibly two spots.  Without Jack there would have been no 3rd spot for Jamaica to get in 98...and no 4th spot for TnT to get in 2006.  SO..... unless TnT became a better team than either the US or Mexico, there is no way we would have gotten to the WC, and by every objective measure those two teams VERY LIKELY would have progressed to the point that they're now at inspite of whatever other progress we made. 

You are assuming that Jack is not a major factor in the fact that Mexico and the United States have advanced to the point that they are considered automatic qualifiers from Concacaf.  Not so much in that they have advanced but we have not.  Why?  Blame the players, the coaches, the government?  But don't blame the administration headed by Jack. We have shown at different times that we can play with Mexico.  Jack was at the forefront of our football when the US rose to be a football power in Concacaf.  Many would argue that player personell wise in the 80's and 90's, the crop of players from T&T were not far behind and even on par with the US players but we never truly improved.

Just another way of looking at your argument.

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Offline WestCoast

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2008, 10:55:16 AM »
NOBODY knows what T&T football would have been like without jackula.  Some of us are just a little more willing to take whatever shaft jack is willing to give for the sake of some short term enjoyment.  As if England coming to T&T is really going to do for T&T football what a few well placed developmental programs could not have done for it already.I really like the kinda logic allyuh football intelectuals does put forth for the sake of arguing.  Men will watch jackula treat us and our players like shit, treat so many of our coaches like shit, misappropriate all the funds that T&T football produces, and be happy to go in a nice brand new beat-up stadium to watch Enland lollygag while they on vacation.  Talk about progress. 

  The World Cup Tournament has grown over the years, and If I am not mistaken, at one point it was only a 16-nation tournament that has now expanded to 32.  The inevitability of more berths for all of the federations seems apparent to me.  T&T is a nation that has produced the likes of Warren Archibald, Earl Carter, Steve Joseph and many, many more men who can hold their own at the international level without the benefit of a proper youth development program in our country.  I can only imagine how many more players like them we would have produced and how well we would be competing for that THIRD SPOT (fack a tree point 5)
if we DID have one.  jackula ain't de only one who holding T&T football ransom, but I will gladly gamble with what we could have had going for us without jack.  My ass woulda STILL be in Germany having a good time in '06! 
Chow
ALL you say there is MIND BOGGLING when one is inclined to digest it with an open mind.
we sure as hell had the TALENT to take us to EVERY WC since 73...........ah lie?
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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Offline weary1969

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2008, 11:12:30 AM »
Talent 4 sure structure no way
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2008, 11:56:47 AM »
Without Jack CONCACAF would still only have 1...possibly two spots.  Without Jack there would have been no 3rd spot for Jamaica to get in 98...and no 4th spot for TnT to get in 2006.  SO..... unless TnT became a better team than either the US or Mexico, there is no way we would have gotten to the WC, and by every objective measure those two teams VERY LIKELY would have progressed to the point that they're now at inspite of whatever other progress we made. 

You are assuming that Jack is not a major factor in the fact that Mexico and the United States have advanced to the point that they are considered automatic qualifiers from Concacaf.  Not so much in that they have advanced but we have not.  Why?  Blame the players, the coaches, the government?  But don't blame the administration headed by Jack. We have shown at different times that we can play with Mexico.  Jack was at the forefront of our football when the US rose to be a football power in Concacaf.  Many would argue that player personell wise in the 80's and 90's, the crop of players from T&T were not far behind and even on par with the US players but we never truly improved.

Just another way of looking at your argument.

Blessings

LSJ...nah I considered that, however the assumption is reversed.  Like others before you, you too are arguing a variant of the same position...that without Jack Trinidad's position would have been far advanced beyond where we are now.  Even if I were to concede that point is there any rational basis to conclude that we would be ahead of either the US or Mexico?  Hardly.  Most seem ready to concede that we'd be behind Mexico, but are less gracious in conceding the lead to the US. 

Many seem deceived by the notion that the US Soccer program came out of nowhere when in fact soccer has been in the US for over 160 yrs, dating back to the times of the US Civil War.  The USSF in fact is only five years younger than the TTFF (I believe the TTFF was founded in 1908...with this whole centennial talk), and for all the ole talk without a doubt soccer has enjoyed greater participation (if not popularity) in the US, than it has in TnT...just looking at the numbers of people playing it.  Now the percentage of US soccer fans relative to the entire US population...that percentage might be lower than in TnT, but that doesn't affect how widespread or popular the sport is...this is what most fail to understand when they look at the US as some just come on the soccer stage.  The USSF was one of the earliest member federations in FIFA, and the US has had good showings at the earlier WC finals.

The thing is that they fell off the international football map until 1990, but that game in 1990 did not mark the rebirth of "soccer" in the US.  You have to go back to the 1984 Olympic Games for that...and one man in particular, Alan Rothenberg, former USSF President.  He was in charge of the soccer part of the olympics, and he was shrewd when it comes to marketing sports thru his involvement with the LA Lakers among other teams, and his prior involvement with NASL soccer.  From that base in 1984 he put forth a ten year plan to secure the Olympics in 1994, which they did.  He then used that as a launch pad for a new domestic soccer league, MLS in 1996.  See it wasn't just luck, but mapping out small achieveable goals one building upon the other, to slowly make soccer a major player in the US.  This is what people don't give the Americans credit for.  The interest was there, but you needed a catalyst to design a plan and put it into play.  American soccer was going to develop whether they beat us in 1990 or not because they were well on their way to hosting the 94 Cup by then.

So...even if you take Jack out the TnT picture, how were we to compete with all that?  You could argue that having a more dedicated, smarter, innovative etc. TTFF leadership...but still, none of that would have guaranteed that we have surpassed the US or Mexico by now.  So that still leaves the top two spots accounted for, and w/o Jack there likely would be no third or fourth spot because no third or fourth team has shown the type of consistency (against the top two) or enjoyed the type of results against non-CONCACAF opponents (at the WC for instance) to merit our region getting another spot. 

So as for the speculative argument put forth by Mango Chow that we "inevitably" would have gotten more spots for CONCACAF is laughable.  Even if the WC was expanded, more likely to get those additional spots would be the more competitive Federations such as Europe, Africa, South America and even Asia. All of them (excepting perhaps Asia) deserve another spot ahead of CONCACAF based on the performance of their teams.  All of them developing 10 Drogbas and Edgar Davids for ever Warren Archibald we develop.  If not for Jack's influence we ent smelling ah third spot, let alone a fourth.  Without those two additional spots it would have been near impossible for TnT to qualify ahead of either the US or Mexico.

Offline Blue

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2008, 12:04:25 PM »
Why do people assume that we could not have made a world cup without Jack Warner? Jamaica and Haiti  made the World Cup so why couldn't we?, ? They have never had anything in football near the likes of JW.

We came VERY close in '73 WITHOUT Jack pulling strings and we were within a hairs breath in 1989 by the merit of our players alone, not by Jack running roughshod all over CONCACAF. In fact some talk is that Jack negatively affected the morale of the 1989 players.

All we needed before was passion for the game on the part of players and fans. The players have passion but when the powers that be make changes to bring the fans back the game we will  make WCs without Jacks help.

Is it really that hard to follow???


Without Jack CONCACAF would still only have 1...possibly two spots.  Without Jack there would have been no 3rd spot for Jamaica to get in 98...and no 4th spot for TnT to get in 2006.  SO..... unless TnT became a better team than either the US or Mexico, there is no way we would have gotten to the WC, and by every objective measure those two teams VERY LIKELY would have progressed to the point that they're now at inspite of whatever other progress we made.  Think of it this way...three cars racing down the track, each at 100 mph.  Cars 1 and 2 have a two- car lead on car three.  Unless car three travels faster than the other two cars it's not going to catch, let alone pass the two leaders.  If there are only two prizes (WC berths) then car three will never get a prize unless it finishes ahead of the two leaders.

Another way is to create a third...and even a fourth prize, that way even though car three still finishes behind the other two, it too gets a prize.  Guess who created that third/fourth prize?  Unless you're realistically arguing that Jack held back our development to the point that he prevented us from passing the US/Mexico...we were never going to the World Cup.

Not that hard.

Bakes, thats probably not true. WC went from 24 to 32 teams in 98 - every confederation got more places.

By the way (and this isnt directed at you Bakes), this thread has way too many analogies!!! Why men can just argue d pros and cons, we all know who and what we talkin bout here ;D

Offline FF

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2008, 12:09:22 PM »
So wait nah bake and shark... concacaf get them extra spots becasue the president was a trini....

that is real toots...

Jack Warner get them spots for Trinidad.. or for Concacaf? I think it would be incumbent upon ANY concacaf president to seek the best interests of the region...

so anyhowz

BnS in your opinion... do you believe all football in Trinidad has been better off or worse with Jack at the helm?
or do you believe it is impossible to make such a judgement with the knowledge at hand?
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2008, 12:36:40 PM »

Bakes, thats probably not true. WC went from 24 to 32 teams in 98 - every confederation got more places.

By the way (and this isnt directed at you Bakes), this thread has way too many analogies!!! Why men can just argue d pros and cons, we all know who and what we talkin bout here ;D

I could concede that...an argument could be made that we'd perenially be in contention for one of the top three spots without Jack.  Speculation could be made to counter that that Jack had a hand in the expansion from 24 to 32 specifically to benefit CONCACAF....that would be pure speculation though.


So wait nah bake and shark... concacaf get them extra spots becasue the president was a trini....

that is real toots...

Jack Warner get them spots for Trinidad.. or for Concacaf? I think it would be incumbent upon ANY concacaf president to seek the best interests of the region...

Of course he would seek the best interest of the region... but I don't think we should fool ourselves to ignore that Jack pushes the interests of CONCACAF generally... but the interest of TnT football specifically.  Any gains made by a CONCACAF nation under his watch benefits his legacy.  Any gains made by TnT football under his CONCACAF watch benefits not only his legacy, but benefits him personally since Jack and the TTFF are synonymous with each other.

so anyhowz

BnS in your opinion... do you believe all football in Trinidad has been better off or worse with Jack at the helm?
or do you believe it is impossible to make such a judgement with the knowledge at hand?

I do believe we have been better with him at the helm.

I don't believe it's impossible to conclude that, because it's easier to quantify tangible gains under his watch, than it is to measure speculative gains that we could have made/been making under someone else's watch.

It would be wrong to attribute all those "gains" to him...but even if we were to give him credit for just one or two...that is still more concrete than any hypothetical alternate scenario...saying "yeah but, under somebody else who knows what we would have had".  That's precisely the problem, we don't know.  Just as we don't know just how good we'd be if he wasn't so corrupt, petty...etc. etc.

Offline trinikev

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #175 on: June 10, 2008, 01:02:36 PM »

Bakes, thats probably not true. WC went from 24 to 32 teams in 98 - every confederation got more places.

By the way (and this isnt directed at you Bakes), this thread has way too many analogies!!! Why men can just argue d pros and cons, we all know who and what we talkin bout here ;D

I could concede that...an argument could be made that we'd perenially be in contention for one of the top three spots without Jack.  Speculation could be made to counter that that Jack had a hand in the expansion from 24 to 32 specifically to benefit CONCACAF....that would be pure speculation though.


So wait nah bake and shark... concacaf get them extra spots becasue the president was a trini....

that is real toots...

Jack Warner get them spots for Trinidad.. or for Concacaf? I think it would be incumbent upon ANY concacaf president to seek the best interests of the region...

Of course he would seek the best interest of the region... but I don't think we should fool ourselves to ignore that Jack pushes the interests of CONCACAF generally... but the interest of TnT football specifically.  Any gains made by a CONCACAF nation under his watch benefits his legacy.  Any gains made by TnT football under his CONCACAF watch benefits not only his legacy, but benefits him personally since Jack and the TTFF are synonymous with each other.




I have a slight disagreement to that statement i bolded there. Yes I believe he pushes the best interest of CONCACAF generally, and the region has benefitted with the extra WC place/s. However I believe for the most part that he pushes his own interests whenever he does anything for T&T football. It's always about how HE can profit. I mean, he took something as amazing and joyous as our qualification for the WC, and somehow made it the onset of a downward spiral for our football. Instead of using it as a platform to move our football forward, he made us an embarrassment to the football world. Nobody who want the best for our football would do something like that.

Then again, what chupidness i saying, is the damn players' fault for not bending over and taking the bull, like good puppets, ent??
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Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #176 on: June 10, 2008, 01:05:15 PM »
Without Jack CONCACAF would still only have 1...possibly two spots.  Without Jack there would have been no 3rd spot for Jamaica to get in 98...and no 4th spot for TnT to get in 2006.  SO..... unless TnT became a better team than either the US or Mexico, there is no way we would have gotten to the WC, and by every objective measure those two teams VERY LIKELY would have progressed to the point that they're now at inspite of whatever other progress we made. 

You are assuming that Jack is not a major factor in the fact that Mexico and the United States have advanced to the point that they are considered automatic qualifiers from Concacaf.  Not so much in that they have advanced but we have not.  Why?  Blame the players, the coaches, the government?  But don't blame the administration headed by Jack. We have shown at different times that we can play with Mexico.  Jack was at the forefront of our football when the US rose to be a football power in Concacaf.  Many would argue that player personell wise in the 80's and 90's, the crop of players from T&T were not far behind and even on par with the US players but we never truly improved.

Just another way of looking at your argument.

Blessings

LSJ...nah I considered that, however the assumption is reversed.  Like others before you, you too are arguing a variant of the same position...that without Jack Trinidad's position would have been far advanced beyond where we are now.  Even if I were to concede that point is there any rational basis to conclude that we would be ahead of either the US or Mexico?  Hardly.  Most seem ready to concede that we'd be behind Mexico, but are less gracious in conceding the lead to the US. 

Many seem deceived by the notion that the US Soccer program came out of nowhere when in fact soccer has been in the US for over 160 yrs, dating back to the times of the US Civil War.  The USSF in fact is only five years younger than the TTFF (I believe the TTFF was founded in 1908...with this whole centennial talk), and for all the ole talk without a doubt soccer has enjoyed greater participation (if not popularity) in the US, than it has in TnT...just looking at the numbers of people playing it.  Now the percentage of US soccer fans relative to the entire US population...that percentage might be lower than in TnT, but that doesn't affect how widespread or popular the sport is...this is what most fail to understand when they look at the US as some just come on the soccer stage.  The USSF was one of the earliest member federations in FIFA, and the US has had good showings at the earlier WC finals.

The thing is that they fell off the international football map until 1990, but that game in 1990 did not mark the rebirth of "soccer" in the US.  You have to go back to the 1984 Olympic Games for that...and one man in particular, Alan Rothenberg, former USSF President.  He was in charge of the soccer part of the olympics, and he was shrewd when it comes to marketing sports thru his involvement with the LA Lakers among other teams, and his prior involvement with NASL soccer.  From that base in 1984 he put forth a ten year plan to secure the Olympics in 1994, which they did.  He then used that as a launch pad for a new domestic soccer league, MLS in 1996.  See it wasn't just luck, but mapping out small achieveable goals one building upon the other, to slowly make soccer a major player in the US.  This is what people don't give the Americans credit for.  The interest was there, but you needed a catalyst to design a plan and put it into play.  American soccer was going to develop whether they beat us in 1990 or not because they were well on their way to hosting the 94 Cup by then.

So...even if you take Jack out the TnT picture, how were we to compete with all that?  You could argue that having a more dedicated, smarter, innovative etc. TTFF leadership...but still, none of that would have guaranteed that we have surpassed the US or Mexico by now.  So that still leaves the top two spots accounted for, and w/o Jack there likely would be no third or fourth spot because no third or fourth team has shown the type of consistency (against the top two) or enjoyed the type of results against non-CONCACAF opponents (at the WC for instance) to merit our region getting another spot. 

So as for the speculative argument put forth by Mango Chow that we "inevitably" would have gotten more spots for CONCACAF is laughable.  Even if the WC was expanded, more likely to get those additional spots would be the more competitive Federations such as Europe, Africa, South America and even Asia. All of them (excepting perhaps Asia) deserve another spot ahead of CONCACAF based on the performance of their teams.  All of them developing 10 Drogbas and Edgar Davids for ever Warren Archibald we develop.  If not for Jack's influence we ent smelling ah third spot, let alone a fourth.  Without those two additional spots it would have been near impossible for TnT to qualify ahead of either the US or Mexico.

  Boy I tell yuh. You read book and don't know chapter.  You want to throw out the words like  "laughable" and "speculative" and yet YOU cannot tell me who would have gotten those extra spots that JH campained fifa for........I will give you time to do the math.....ahhh, sorry, the research.    

Yuh regurgitating out all the research you went to perform and you are yet to acknowledge that, for all that work that Alan Rothenberg performed, he understood that usa soccer wasn't going anywhere at the senior level, unless they properly developed their YOUTHS. I'm sure you, the omnipotent one, was at the Hasely Crawford that fateul night back in '83 to see for yourself.  You is the kinda man who could tell people all what Roger Milla and Cameroun was doing in Italy in 1990 don't have a CLUE (well, now you do, thanks to google) what strides them African Nations were making and the impact they were having at the youth Tournaments that would eventally,  or, dare I say "inevitably" spill over into their performances at the senior level.  

What jackula has done "for" T&T football, as you want to put it has all been self serving and counter productive and for all the money he has stolen, he could have kept on stealing as far as I am concerned, it's just that some of it could have been better appropriated towards a better cause for our football.    
I dare say that proper investment in our youth development would have taken us many, many strides ahead of where we are now.            


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Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #177 on: June 10, 2008, 01:15:41 PM »
So wait nah bake and shark... concacaf get them extra spots becasue the president was a trini....

that is real toots...

Jack Warner get them spots for Trinidad.. or for Concacaf? I think it would be incumbent upon ANY concacaf president to seek the best interests of the region...

so anyhowz

BnS in your opinion... do you believe all football in Trinidad has been better off or worse with Jack at the helm?
or do you believe it is impossible to make such a judgement with the knowledge at hand?

It real obvious that the global popularity and financial opportunities of football have grown exponentially, INDEPENDENT of CONCACAF. Seems to me that Warner was exploiting this trend in expanding the spots in our region more than he was actually creating demand from nothing. As such I totally agree that it would be incumbent on ANY person in that position to do exactly as Jack did. His ties to Blatter and personal qualities have no doubt greased his way a little but anyone with a 1/2 clue could see the potential for power and financial rewards in expansion.

After all the talk done the question to ask is this. Will the continuing tenure of Jack Warner as ruler of CONCACAF produce a net benefit to the game in the near to long term future?

 I say no. Seems to me he is no longer driven by IDEAS or INNOVATIVE thinking, assuming that was once a motivating factor in his prseidency.

Perhaps it might be fitting to suggest that Jack initially created benefits, but his presence in his current capacity is detrimental to the game in the long term.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:30:25 PM by ZANDOLIE »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
I have a slight disagreement to that statement i bolded there. Yes I believe he pushes the best interest of CONCACAF generally, and the region has benefitted with the extra WC place/s. However I believe for the most part that he pushes his own interests whenever he does anything for T&T football. It's always about how HE can profit. I mean, he took something as amazing and joyous as our qualification for the WC, and somehow made it the onset of a downward spiral for our football. Instead of using it as a platform to move our football forward, he made us an embarrassment to the football world. Nobody who want the best for our football would do something like that.

Then again, what chupidness i saying, is the damn players' fault for not bending over and taking the bull, like good puppets, ent??

How is that different from anything I have said?

"Any gains made by TnT football under his CONCACAF watch benefits not only his legacy, but benefits him personally since Jack and the TTFF are synonymous with each other."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 02:09:16 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Jack Warner - Pro's and Con's
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2008, 02:08:09 PM »
 Boy I tell yuh. You read book and don't know chapter.  You want to throw out the words like  "laughable" and "speculative" and yet YOU cannot tell me who would have gotten those extra spots that JH campained fifa for........I will give you time to do the math.....ahhh, sorry, the research.    

Yuh regurgitating out all the research you went to perform and you are yet to acknowledge that, for all that work that Alan Rothenberg performed, he understood that usa soccer wasn't going anywhere at the senior level, unless they properly developed their YOUTHS. I'm sure you, the omnipotent one, was at the Hasely Crawford that fateul night back in '83 to see for yourself.  You is the kinda man who could tell people all what Roger Milla and Cameroun was doing in Italy in 1990 don't have a CLUE (well, now you do, thanks to google) what strides them African Nations were making and the impact they were having at the youth Tournaments that would eventally,  or, dare I say "inevitably" spill over into their performances at the senior level.  

What jackula has done "for" T&T football, as you want to put it has all been self serving and counter productive and for all the money he has stolen, he could have kept on stealing as far as I am concerned, it's just that some of it could have been better appropriated towards a better cause for our football.    
I dare say that proper investment in our youth development would have taken us many, many strides ahead of where we are now.            

You sound bitter.  Come back when yuh making some sense.

 

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