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Offline Football supporter

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #930 on: June 21, 2011, 09:22:15 PM »
The British need to get a f**king life.  What does Jack Warner's FIFA pension have to do with anything?  steups

Well, some people may consider this a travesty. Imagine, if you will, that there was mitigating evidence against Warner and FIFA offered him a deal: resign and we will drop the investigation. Now in this imaginary scenario, this would mean that Warner is being rewarded to the tune of a possible £23,000 p.a. for being found guilty.

Now this is all supposition, but it would be typical of FIFA to do this.

From the viewpoint of transparency, FIFA should have continued their investigation. Whether the person under investigation resigns or not, if they believed an investigation was required, that investigation should continue.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out with bin Hammam still being investigated, along with the CFU members. However, as I have commented all along, I don't think there will be any evidence against Jack, unless someone specifically names him.

It's a sick obsession... is what it is.   Regardless as to whether Jack is guilty or not, that has nothing to do with his pension.  Unless FIFA has some policy which says "an ethical finding of guilt will result in forfeiture of pension" then the one one has nothing to do with the other.  And mind you, that would be the case within an transparent and ethical organization... let alone FIFA.  You know better than I that the British sporting media has a fixation with Jack Warner.  I am far from being some anglophobe, but to hear the British tell it their shit don't stink... just everyone else's.

Again, we seem to have totally opposing views (and clear understanding of the subject). In most major organisations a dismissal for financial irregularities would usually mean loss of all benefits. This includes in Britain, MP's, civil servents (including police) judges etc. You never heard of the armed services court marshalling someone and they lose their pension? Again, and I'm getting real tired of this now, I never said Warner was guilty of anything. However I do believe that usual practices are not being followed. A) I still maintain a financial crime may have been comitted in T&T and as this is in the public forum there should be an investigation and if need be, people should be charged, b) FIFA began an investigation and regardless of anyone resigning, it should continue investigating all parties it originally deemed worthy of such an investigation.

Offline elan

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #931 on: June 21, 2011, 09:30:34 PM »
The British need to get a f**king life.  What does Jack Warner's FIFA pension have to do with anything?  steups

Well, some people may consider this a travesty. Imagine, if you will, that there was mitigating evidence against Warner and FIFA offered him a deal: resign and we will drop the investigation. Now in this imaginary scenario, this would mean that Warner is being rewarded to the tune of a possible £23,000 p.a. for being found guilty.

Now this is all supposition, but it would be typical of FIFA to do this.

From the viewpoint of transparency, FIFA should have continued their investigation. Whether the person under investigation resigns or not, if they believed an investigation was required, that investigation should continue.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out with bin Hammam still being investigated, along with the CFU members. However, as I have commented all along, I don't think there will be any evidence against Jack, unless someone specifically names him.

It's a sick obsession... is what it is.   Regardless as to whether Jack is guilty or not, that has nothing to do with his pension.  Unless FIFA has some policy which says "an ethical finding of guilt will result in forfeiture of pension" then the one one has nothing to do with the other.  And mind you, that would be the case within an transparent and ethical organization... let alone FIFA.  You know better than I that the British sporting media has a fixation with Jack Warner.  I am far from being some anglophobe, but to hear the British tell it their shit don't stink... just everyone else's.

Again, we seem to have totally opposing views (and clear understanding of the subject). In most major organisations a dismissal for financial irregularities would usually mean loss of all benefits. This includes in Britain, MP's, civil servents (including police) judges etc. You never heard of the armed services court marshalling someone and they lose their pension? Again, and I'm getting real tired of this now, I never said Warner was guilty of anything. However I do believe that usual practices are not being followed. A) I still maintain a financial crime may have been comitted in T&T and as this is in the public forum there should be an investigation and if need be, people should be charged, b) FIFA began an investigation and regardless of anyone resigning, it should continue investigating all parties it originally deemed worthy of such an investigation.

When they charge Warner son (ticket or leave it, for those who forgot) was he a part of FIFA? So how come now that JW resign they cannot investigate him? How in one instance they can investigate and charge someone not invovled in FIFA, but on the other hand they cannot.  :bs:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline Bourbon

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #932 on: June 21, 2011, 09:37:29 PM »
People who feel dis is hang jack wrong. If anyting he save it.
The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus ;with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #933 on: June 21, 2011, 09:58:29 PM »
The British need to get a f**king life.  What does Jack Warner's FIFA pension have to do with anything?  steups

Well, some people may consider this a travesty. Imagine, if you will, that there was mitigating evidence against Warner and FIFA offered him a deal: resign and we will drop the investigation. Now in this imaginary scenario, this would mean that Warner is being rewarded to the tune of a possible £23,000 p.a. for being found guilty.

Now this is all supposition, but it would be typical of FIFA to do this.

From the viewpoint of transparency, FIFA should have continued their investigation. Whether the person under investigation resigns or not, if they believed an investigation was required, that investigation should continue.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out with bin Hammam still being investigated, along with the CFU members. However, as I have commented all along, I don't think there will be any evidence against Jack, unless someone specifically names him.

It's a sick obsession... is what it is.   Regardless as to whether Jack is guilty or not, that has nothing to do with his pension.  Unless FIFA has some policy which says "an ethical finding of guilt will result in forfeiture of pension" then the one one has nothing to do with the other.  And mind you, that would be the case within an transparent and ethical organization... let alone FIFA.  You know better than I that the British sporting media has a fixation with Jack Warner.  I am far from being some anglophobe, but to hear the British tell it their shit don't stink... just everyone else's.

Again, we seem to have totally opposing views (and clear understanding of the subject). In most major organisations a dismissal for financial irregularities would usually mean loss of all benefits. This includes in Britain, MP's, civil servents (including police) judges etc. You never heard of the armed services court marshalling someone and they lose their pension? Again, and I'm getting real tired of this now, I never said Warner was guilty of anything. However I do believe that usual practices are not being followed. A) I still maintain a financial crime may have been comitted in T&T and as this is in the public forum there should be an investigation and if need be, people should be charged, b) FIFA began an investigation and regardless of anyone resigning, it should continue investigating all parties it originally deemed worthy of such an investigation.

When they charge Warner son (ticket or leave it, for those who forgot) was he a part of FIFA? So how come now that JW resign they cannot investigate him? How in one instance they can investigate and charge someone not invovled in FIFA, but on the other hand they cannot.  :bs:

Nice work Holmes!!  ;)
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #934 on: June 21, 2011, 10:07:33 PM »
Again, we seem to have totally opposing views (and clear understanding of the subject). In most major organisations a dismissal for financial irregularities would usually mean loss of all benefits. This includes in Britain, MP's, civil servents (including police) judges etc. You never heard of the armed services court marshalling someone and they lose their pension? Again, and I'm getting real tired of this now, I never said Warner was guilty of anything. However I do believe that usual practices are not being followed. A) I still maintain a financial crime may have been comitted in T&T and as this is in the public forum there should be an investigation and if need be, people should be charged, b) FIFA began an investigation and regardless of anyone resigning, it should continue investigating all parties it originally deemed worthy of such an investigation.

Yes our understanding is certainly different and apparently YOU'RE not very clear... all the examples you cite are public or government positions.  Being accused of bribery or financial impropriety is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE when you're a public employee... this was explained to you two weeks ago when you didn't even know that bribery was not a crime.  FIFA is a private organization and short of committing a crime... and unless provided for in the terms of employment, being accused of an ethical issue will normally not cost you your pension.  

You also fail to understand that FIFA has no jurisdiction over Jack Warner once he resigned.  They can go thru the motions and investigate but without having him there cooperating by answering questions it will be a waste of time.  Even if they DO investigate him and find him guilty of an ethical violation... what is the end result... banning him after he's already resigned? You're now claiming that this took place "in a public forum"... since when is a private meeting at a private hotel, by private parties equal a "public forum"?  You and others are on a mission to get Jack by any means necessary, no matter how you back away from it.  If that means a waste of public resources by Gibbs, or a waste of private resources by FIFA it doesn't matter to you... as long as they investigate.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:11:16 PM by Bakes »

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #935 on: June 21, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
When they charge Warner son (ticket or leave it, for those who forgot) was he a part of FIFA? So how come now that JW resign they cannot investigate him? How in one instance they can investigate and charge someone not invovled in FIFA, but on the other hand they cannot.  :bs:

That situation was as different as night and day.  Obviously they had leverage over Simpaul because Jack Warner was involved... if his son didn't cooperate Jack would have had to pay with either money or his position.  Additionally, it was FIFA tickets that was illegally resold... it was either he pay or they could have taken him to court.  Here FIFA has no leverage over Jack.  It really not that difficult to understand how that situation different from this one.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:43:39 PM by Bakes »

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #936 on: June 21, 2011, 11:21:41 PM »
Again, we seem to have totally opposing views (and clear understanding of the subject). In most major organisations a dismissal for financial irregularities would usually mean loss of all benefits. This includes in Britain, MP's, civil servents (including police) judges etc. You never heard of the armed services court marshalling someone and they lose their pension? Again, and I'm getting real tired of this now, I never said Warner was guilty of anything. However I do believe that usual practices are not being followed. A) I still maintain a financial crime may have been comitted in T&T and as this is in the public forum there should be an investigation and if need be, people should be charged, b) FIFA began an investigation and regardless of anyone resigning, it should continue investigating all parties it originally deemed worthy of such an investigation.

Yes our understanding is certainly different and apparently YOU'RE not very clear... all the examples you cite are public or government positions.  Being accused of bribery or financial impropriety is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE when you're a public employee... this was explained to you two weeks ago when you didn't even know that bribery was not a crime.  FIFA is a private organization and short of committing a crime... and unless provided for in the terms of employment, being accused of an ethical issue will normally not cost you your pension.  

You also fail to understand that FIFA has no jurisdiction over Jack Warner once he resigned.  They can go thru the motions and investigate but without having him there cooperating by answering questions it will be a waste of time.  Even if they DO investigate him and find him guilty of an ethical violation... what is the end result... banning him after he's already resigned? You're now claiming that this took place "in a public forum"... since when is a private meeting at a private hotel, by private parties equal a "public forum"?  You and others are on a mission to get Jack by any means necessary, no matter how you back away from it.  If that means a waste of public resources by Gibbs, or a waste of private resources by FIFA it doesn't matter to you... as long as they investigate.

You see, again mate, you're either misreading or choosing to twist words. Look above, I said "as this is in the public forum" in other words it is in the newspapers. I also said "in most major organisations AND THIS INCLUDES etc etc"

And silly old me believed that IF FIFA carried on investigating and IF FIFA found a criminal offence had taken place, they have a duty to report this to the relevent authorities along with any evidence. You see, in the real world, you cannot avoid the law just by saying I resign, otherwise I'm sure Madof would have thought of that little loophole. Now, in reality, its very unlikely that FIFA would have the balls to do this if they did find evidence.

Oh yes, and as for this comment of yours: "Being accused of bribery or financial impropriety is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE when you're a public employee... this was explained to you two weeks ago when you didn't even know that bribery was not a crime." Maybe you haven't been keeping up, but Jack Warner is a public employee. Just because the alleged offence wasn't to do with his political role, its still counts my friend. Especially if he used his Ministerial position to steer people through customs with undeclared funds. I know this is no big deal to you, but to me its abuse of power. But I'm prepared to let this go on the understanding that next time you enter T&T you bring US$40,000 through Piarco without declaring it. After all, it don't matter, right?

And finally, Keith Rowley continually refers to the bribery as a crime. You may be right and he may be wrong, but after 2 weeks, not one lawyer, including Om Lalla, has said this is not a crime.

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #937 on: June 22, 2011, 12:03:44 AM »

You see, again mate, you're either misreading or choosing to twist words. Look above, I said "as this is in the public forum" in other words it is in the newspapers. I also said "in most major organisations AND THIS INCLUDES etc etc"1


And silly old me believed that IF FIFA carried on investigating and IF FIFA found a criminal offence had taken place, they have a duty to report this to the relevent authorities along with any evidence. 2You see, in the real world, you cannot avoid the law 3just by saying I resign, otherwise I'm sure Madof would have thought of that little loophole. Now, in reality, its very unlikely that FIFA would have the balls to do this if they did find evidence.

Oh yes, and as for this comment of yours: "Being accused of bribery or financial impropriety is a CRIMINAL OFFENSE when you're a public employee... this was explained to you two weeks ago when you didn't even know that bribery was not a crime." Maybe you haven't been keeping up, but Jack Warner is a public employee. 4Just because the alleged offence wasn't to do with his political role, its still counts my friend. Especially if he used his Ministerial position to steer people through customs with undeclared funds.5 I know this is no big deal to you, but to me its abuse of power. But I'm prepared to let this go on the understanding that next time you enter T&T you bring US$40,000 through Piarco without declaring it. After all, it don't matter, right?

And finally, Keith Rowley continually refers to the bribery as a crime. You may be right and he may be wrong, but after 2 weeks, not one lawyer, including Om Lalla, has said this is not a crime.6

1Can you name some of these "major organizations"?  Because I get the distinct feeling that you're fishing here... not that you would have any way of knowing what the HR policies of "most major organizations" would be.  I can tell you though that to terminate an employee for a non-criminal offense would be perfectly legal.  To deny him his pension, on the basis of such... would be to invite litigation.  If in your experience you've personally seen this policies or experienced anything like this... then I stand to be corrected.

2 So you believe that FIFA should investigate, not for themselves (because it won't benefit them any), but in the oft chance that they can help the TnT police figure out if TnT laws were broken?  Righto.  Good luck with that one.

3  What "law" is Jack avoiding?  We're talking about Jack, right?  Because I don't want to wrongly accuse you of fixating on Jack.

4 Actually I am keeping up... better than you think.  You don't have to take my word for it, but again as explained before... bribery is not a crime, unless it applies to public employees acting in their public capacity.  But you already knew that is what I was referring to.  8)

5 Agreed... if he used his Ministerial office to assist in the commission of a crime.  However this forum is the only place I've heard this allegation (unless I missed something)... I'm curious though, if that were the case then why is Gibbs writing to FIFA and not asking questions of Customs?... how would FIFA know this?  At any rate, this is the first and only legitimate grounds you have raised (as I see it) with regards to Jack possibly having committed a crime.

6  I must have missed where Rowley referred to bribery as a crime... because it certainly isn't anywhere to be found in the laws of TnT.  Contrary to what you may think, I'm not just talking out my ass here.  Ultimately I may be wrong... but I certainly haven't found anything yet to indicate that I am. 

Additionally Rowley is asking Gibbs to investigate if currency laws were broken... I haven't heard him specifically talk about the bribery allegations, whether it's a crime or whether Jack was involved... Rowley knows better than to expose himself like that.  Lalla hasn't specifically come out and say that bribery is not a crime because that would be a silly statement for him to make... it could easily be construed as him saying bribery is okay and implicate Warner by association ("my client has done nothing wrong, all they accuse him of is bribery... but bribery is not a crime").  What Lalla has said is that Gibbs can't investigate much.

Quote
"Gibbs has done the best and only thing that he could do, which is to write to FIFA. He cannot really do anything else at this point," Lalla said

The implication is clear that (in his mind) Gibbs' hands are tied probably because  no laws were broken.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 12:05:22 AM by Bakes »

Offline davidephraim

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Re: Fifa vice-president Jack Warner resigns
« Reply #938 on: June 22, 2011, 12:08:02 AM »
Nope. Unless they specifically name Jack, he is not guilty by association. He can just say how disapointed he is in them and then give them jobs in Min of W&T.

OH Larrdddoooooo!  :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Warren N. Boucaud

Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #939 on: June 22, 2011, 12:31:28 AM »
Allyuh eh find that Jack look like a Calypsonian on the site Home page?!

Flex should also run a Caption that competition with that picture!  8)
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Football supporter

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #940 on: June 22, 2011, 12:32:36 AM »
I will try to find where I thought Rowley referred to bribery, but in the meantime on one of the other threads there is a news report in which they say Gibbs has written to FIFA requesting their files concerning the bribery allegations, so I assume that means bribery is illegal. If, as you say, bribery is not illegal in T&T, then I will accept your word, so if I give you some cash, perhaps we can forget all about this?  :rotfl:

Regarding pension rules, from what I can recall, dismissal due to serious misconduct including financial irregularities can result in your removal from a company or group pension scheme where the company has contributed. You are, however, entitled to a refund of your contributions. I certainly cannot state that this is a fact for every large organisation, though its my understanding that this is a fairly standard clause. As a financial adviser working with high net worth clients in the City of London and Canary Wharf areas, I had access to many of the largest employers pension schemes including banks, supermarkets, traders etc. I personally had two Deutche Bank Vice Presidents as clients. And, yes, you are correct, this is open to litigation, but this is usually attached to wrongful dismissal actions. I have never had a client sacked for a criminal offence so I cannot comment on the outcome of such an action.

But out of curiosity (and this is not to pick another fight with you) would you honestly attempt to bring a large amount of undeclared cash through customs?

Offline Bakes

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #941 on: June 22, 2011, 01:06:33 AM »
I will try to find where I thought Rowley referred to bribery, but in the meantime on one of the other threads there is a news report in which they say Gibbs has written to FIFA requesting their files concerning the bribery allegations, so I assume that means bribery is illegal. If, as you say, bribery is not illegal in T&T, then I will accept your word, so if I give you some cash, perhaps we can forget all about this?  :rotfl:

Regarding pension rules, from what I can recall, dismissal due to serious misconduct including financial irregularities can result in your removal from a company or group pension scheme where the company has contributed. You are, however, entitled to a refund of your contributions. I certainly cannot state that this is a fact for every large organisation, though its my understanding that this is a fairly standard clause. As a financial adviser working with high net worth clients in the City of London and Canary Wharf areas, I had access to many of the largest employers pension schemes including banks, supermarkets, traders etc. I personally had two Deutche Bank Vice Presidents as clients. And, yes, you are correct, this is open to litigation, but this is usually attached to wrongful dismissal actions. I have never had a client sacked for a criminal offence so I cannot comment on the outcome of such an action.

But out of curiosity (and this is not to pick another fight with you) would you honestly attempt to bring a large amount of undeclared cash through customs?

You don't have to worry about that... never mind the verbal sparring, I know is nutten personal  :beermug:

Would I try and bring cash thru Customs without declaring it... nah, no chance.  I wouldn't want to risk walking around with large sums, and if is some fly-by-night customs you never know who will want to "seize" it... even if you're bringing it thru legally.  If I knew it was against the law I definitely wouldn't chance it... unless I have somebody to call or something  ;D

As for the pension... I can definitely see removal as a possibility for a non-criminal offense.  But to essentially seize someone's pension after it's vested... and I don't know when Jack's would have vested, he's been an ExCo member for 21 years though... I don't know on what legal basis they can do it.  It's no different than going into your bank account and garnishing funds... you'd better be damn sure you know what you're doing.

As for Rowley... I read him mentioning the Exchange Control Act and the Customs Act as possibly being violated, I didn't see him say "investigate b/c bribery may have been commited".  Bribery laws are usually drawn very narrowly (such as is the case with public employees/officials), otherwise the net would be so wide as to ensnare a lot of "innocent" people.  Stop and think about it for a minute and it will make sense... any enticement the average Joe gives another to get something done... other than pure quid pro quo... can be construed as a bribe.  So for a legislator... what specific activities do you apply the law to?  What financial limits constitute a bribe?  What circumstances?

Not saying you specifically... but the public gets too much of it's education from TV/Hollywood, and a there are things we think are crimes that are not... and worse, things we take for granted that are actually criminal.

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Fifa vice-president Jack Warner resigns
« Reply #942 on: June 22, 2011, 04:47:47 AM »
I feel Brown Sugar will suffer the most in this debacle because ah don't think we goin Brasil anymore.. ;D ;D and so the mantra has died!

Nah, nah, nah......I was always going Brazil boss so the new mantra is

I GOING BRAZIL!!!!


 :devil: :devil: ;D
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #943 on: June 22, 2011, 04:58:02 AM »
FIFA release Jack Warner Q&A

Trinidad Guardian Published: Tue, 2011-06-21 16:09 

FIFA have released the following Q&A detailing some key issues surrounding vice president Jack Warner's resignation.


Q. Does Mr Warner's resignation mean he won't now be investigated by the FIFA ethics committee?

A. He will be investigated as a witness but not as an accused party. He has offered his support to the ethics committee in their continued investigation.   ??? ???

Q. Please could you expand on the reason(s) for the FIFA ethics committee procedures against Jack Warner being dropped?

A. Please see article one of the FIFA code of ethics which says "this code applies to all officials". According to Swiss association law, FIFA only has jurisdiction on its affiliated members. If a person leaves or resigns from an association, FIFA has no jurisdiction on that person anymore. Hence the ethics committee had legally no other option than to close the proceedings. However, should that person come back to football, the investigation would be automatically re-opened.

Q. Will FIFA examine Mr Warner's role in the affair, if as he says, he intends to continue to help FIFA with its inquiries?

A. Yes.   ???

Q. Has he been offered some kind of immunity?

A. No.  Eh??  ???


Q. Are the investigations completed in the case of Mr Bin Hammam and Mr Warner?

A. Please note that the current investigation launched by the FIFA ethics committee is still ongoing and the provisional suspension of Mr Bin Hammam is still in place. We cannot speculate on the outcome of the main procedures.

However, as mentioned in today's FIFA media release: "As a consequence of Mr Warner's self-determined resignation, all ethics committee procedures against him have been closed and the presumption of innocence is maintained." However, Mr Warner will be heard as a witness.

Q. What does "the presumption of innocence is maintained" mean?

A. If a person was not found guilty and such a decision became final and binding, the presumption of innocence is maintained. This is a basic principle in law.

Well ah understand this part....



I eh so bright sometimes, so anybody else confused??.....
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Flex

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #944 on: June 22, 2011, 05:23:13 AM »
Jack now FIFA 'witness' but refuses to meet with ex-FBI director
By Renuka Singh (Express).


I'D RATHER DIE FIRST

Works Minister Jack Warner said he would rather "die first" than meet with former Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) director Louis Freeh, who has been retained by FIFA to investigate allegations of bribery within the organisation.

Warner has refused to meet with the former director, citing his (Freeh's) American nationality and his possible link and friendship with fellow American and whistleblower Chuck Blazer. Warner blamed Blazer for the controversial allegations, saying he (Blazer) sought to undermine Warner's 30-year association with FIFA.

Warner said he would cooperate with the on-going investigations into bribery allegations against Qatari Mohamed bin Hammam and Caribbean Football Union's executive coordinator Jason Sylvester and assistant to the general secretary, Debbie Minguell, but would not meet with Freeh.

Om Lalla, Warner's local lawyer and "legal mouthpiece", yesterday confirmed that Warner was contacted by FIFA's ethics committee, but said Warner would not be attending the meeting.

"He has been contacted, but the hearing is at the end of June and Mr Warner would be unavailable to attend at this stage, " Lalla said in a telephone interview yesterday.

This was at odds with a media statement sent by FIFA yesterday, which confirmed that Warner was willing to "appear as a witness in the continuing ethics committee investigation into bribery claims".

The release said Warner would be investigated as a witness "but not as an accused party," adding that Warner "offered his support to the ethics committee".

After Warner resigned on Monday, FIFA released a statement saying that "as a consequence of Mr Warner's resignation, all ethics committee procedures against him have been closed and the presumption of innocence is maintained". FIFA also said Warner would continue to be "involved as a witness in the continuing investigation into the allegations against Bin Hammam and the Caribbean associations".

When asked if Warner did not want to attend the meetings because of his refusal to meet with Freeh, Lalla would only say, "Mr Warner would not be meeting with anyone."

Lalla also dismissed the calls from the Opposition for Commissioner of Police Dwayne Gibbs to pursue the local investigation into Warner's bribery allegations.

"Gibbs has done the best and only thing that he could do, which is to write to FIFA. He cannot really do anything else at this point," Lalla said.

A source yesterday revealed that Warner was asked to be in Zurich, Switzerland, from June 22 to 24, but told the ethics committee that he was unavailable on those dates and for the month of July.

"The committee can push back the hearing to accommodate Warner's schedule or can proceed with the hearing without his contribution. This move though could push the hearing outside of Warner's suspension and any extension that FIFA may impose though, so only FIFA knows what they are going to do after that," he said.
The real measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out.

Offline Flex

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #945 on: June 22, 2011, 05:26:48 AM »
Warner: CONCACAF needs to rally behind Austin
T&T Express Reports.


Jack Warner, who resigned on Monday as one of the most powerful figures in world football, has thrown his support behind embattled Barbadian Lisle Austin to head CONCACAF.

Austin was appointed acting president following Warner's suspension by FIFA's ethics committee earlier this month, but has been involved in a struggle to hold on to the reins of power in the strife-torn confederation.

As he departed football's stage on Monday, Warner affirmed Austin as the man to lead CONCACAF out of its current mire.

"It is my sincere hope that CONCACAF will achieve unity under its established statutes, beginning with formal recognition of Lisle Austin as acting president. We will only succeed if we are governed by rules and laws and not by grudges," Warner said in a statement.

"It is essential that all Caribbean nations and others within CONCACAF stand up to ensure that we preserve, in Mr. Austin, a strong voice for reform and for the interests of the Caribbean Football Union (CFU)."

In the face of continuing corruption allegations, Warner resigned as a vice-president of FIFA and as head of CONCACAF, the continental governing body for football in North, Central America and the Caribbean.

The development follows his suspension from both bodies as FIFA's ethics committee mounted a probe into allegations that he and former FIFA presidential candidate Mohamed Bin Hammam offered US$40,000 to Caribbean Football Union members at a meeting in Port of Spain last month in return for their votes in the FIFA presidential election on June 1.

Austin, a senior CONCACAF vice-president, assumed the role of acting president but was suspended after the majority of the executive committee met and decided he had violated the organisation's statues.

The matter subsequently headed to court with Austin receiving an injunction in the Bahamas to overturn the decision.

In a recent statement, FIFA said they recognised Honduran Alfredo Hawit as the rightful head of CONCACAF.

–CMC
The real measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out.

Offline Flex

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #946 on: June 22, 2011, 05:38:49 AM »
Transparency Institute not satisfied with FIFA approach
By Raphael John-Lall (Guardian).


The Trinidad and Tobago Transparency Institute (TTTI) regrets that world football governing body, FIFA has apparently closed the investigation into bribery allegations against Jack Warner without formally clearing his name.

TTTI’s media release yesterday followed a statement from FIFA which said it had closed all investigations involving Warner after he declared that he had resigned from all international football positions he held.

Last month, Warner was suspended pending an investigation into claims that he and a FIFA presidential challenger Mohamed Bin Hammam had offered financial incentives to members of the Caribbean Football Union (CFU). On May 29, the FIFA Ethics Committee had stated that Warner and Hammam would be initially suspended for 30 days.

TTTI said that it was “unsatisfactory” that the reputation of a senior minister in the Trinidad and Tobago Government has been called into question by accusations reported extensively in the international media and that investigations have been ended without these accusations having been withdrawn or found false.

TTTI recommends that in the absence of any public withdrawal of the accusations, an independent investigation be undertaken with the objective of clearing the Minister’s name as it is important that the Trinidad and Tobago Government not be seen with any form of corruption whether proven or implied.

“The code of conduct of ministers and parliamentarians should be reviewed in the light of this matter so that the lessons learned be used to clarify and improve them. Other investigations still underway into whether the laws of Trinidad and Tobago have been broken should be completed and appropriate action taken to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion,” the release stated.
The real measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out.

Offline Football supporter

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #947 on: June 22, 2011, 06:56:07 AM »
I'm confused.com!!  "The committee can push back the hearing to accommodate Warner's schedule or can proceed with the hearing without his contribution. This move though could push the hearing outside of Warner's suspension" How can the suspension still be relevant if he's resigned? So why does it matter if Warner can't attend until August? Unless they are referring to bin Hammams suspension?

Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #948 on: June 22, 2011, 06:59:29 AM »
“The code of conduct of ministers and parliamentarians should be reviewed in the light of this matter so that the lessons learned be used to clarify and improve them. Other investigations still underway into whether the laws of Trinidad and Tobago have been broken should be completed and appropriate action taken to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion,” the release stated.

 :beermug:
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline weary1969

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #949 on: June 22, 2011, 07:32:57 AM »
“The code of conduct of ministers and parliamentarians should be reviewed in the light of this matter so that the lessons learned be used to clarify and improve them. Other investigations still underway into whether the laws of Trinidad and Tobago have been broken should be completed and appropriate action taken to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion,” the release stated.

 :beermug:

No need to change d code of ethics because is only Jack would have been allowed 2 keep dem 2 wuk in d 1st place.
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline jai john

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #950 on: June 22, 2011, 07:34:52 AM »
just a quick question to those legal minds out there ... if warner remains a member of any football grouping under the umbrella of FIFA can be not be investigated by FIFA ? Or is it that he is only to be investigated if he holds the position of vice president of Fifa and concacaf boss ?
Has he resigned his position as a member of the east zone of the TTFF ? any org. under the authority of the TTFF is under the authority of the parent body( FIFA) as far as my layman understanding goes ...correct me if I am wrong. he may have resigned from the east zone ...I am just asking ...
This question has implications for the any investigation that may require FIFA's help.
I am sure most folks would want closure on this matter and not just have it dismissed because warner resigned his big posts.

Offline weary1969

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Re: Fifa vice-president Jack Warner resigns
« Reply #951 on: June 22, 2011, 07:38:35 AM »
I feel Brown Sugar will suffer the most in this debacle because ah don't think we goin Brasil anymore.. ;D ;D and so the mantra has died!

Nah, nah, nah......I was always going Brazil boss so the new mantra is

I GOING BRAZIL!!!!


 :devil: :devil: ;D

It was always wit or witout d socawarriors.
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #952 on: June 22, 2011, 07:39:36 AM »
just a quick question to those legal minds out there ... if warner remains a member of any football grouping under the umbrella of FIFA can be not be investigated by FIFA ? Or is it that he is only to be investigated if he holds the position of vice president of Fifa and concacaf boss ?
Has he resigned his position as a member of the east zone of the TTFF ? any org. under the authority of the TTFF is under the authority of the parent body( FIFA) as far as my layman understanding goes ...correct me if I am wrong. he may have resigned from the east zone ...I am just asking ...
This question has implications for the any investigation that may require FIFA's help.
I am sure most folks would want closure on this matter and not just have it dismissed because warner resigned his big posts.

Good questions that I am sure Warner is not going to answer if asked!

Another one is, Are you still officially Special Advisor to the TTFF?
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline royal

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #953 on: June 22, 2011, 08:00:23 AM »
Requiem for a Heavyweight

Posted Today at 09:29 AM by Bill Archer

The irony in all of this is so rich that it could easily be a retired schoolteacher from Trinidad who decided to get involved in football administration.

That's because the FIFA Soccer News Topics Ethics Committee - the same one which has just forced Jack Warner, The Pirate of the Caribbean, to quit international soccer forever - was originally established specifically to protect Warner from being punished for his many and varied nefarious deeds.


You will recall that in the aftermath of the 2006 World Cup, FIFA's own auditors presented evidence that Warner had used his official position to gobble up over 5000 prime tickets (which he still, to the best of anyones' knowledge, has never paid for), packaged them with overpriced airfare and hotel rooms through his Simpaul Travel agency and peddled them on the open market in direct violation of about a dozen very specific FIFA regulations.

The worlds' football media was in an uproar. Nobody knew for sure how much money he had cleared with this scam

but professional estimates started at US$ 5,000,000 and went up from there and, as was typical for Warner, the whole thing was so thinly veiled and grossly corrupt that even Sepp Blatter Soccer News Topics couldn't ignore it.

So in response to the torrent of complaints, Blatter announced the formation of a new "Ethics Committee" which would have virtually unlimited authority to look into abuses, rule violations and corrupt practices within FIFA.

Blatter touted this as the cure for all the foul misdeeds that people were accusing him of tolerating and the worlds' footballing media dutifully parroted the company line: "FIFA FInally Gets Serious About Ethics" was the theme of the day.

The thing that pretty much everyone failed to notice at the time was that the committees' investigative powers were, by statute, not retroactive. That is to say, nothing that happened prior to the establishment of the Ethics Committee in late 2006 could be considered, a clause which effectively closed the door on any and all of Jack Warners' kleptomaniacal acts.


Warner kept the money which FIFA knew he had illegally gained - the auditors' report was quite specific - and walked away with Blatters' blessing. When asked about the situation, Blatter blithely told reporters that Warner "has been forgiven".

So the Ethics Committee which was created in response to Jack Warners' ethical lapses was constitutionally prevented from investigating Jack Warners' ethics. A neat, slick, Sepp Blatterish trick if ever there was one.


Now for most of us the lesson we'd take away from having so narrowly dodged a bullet would be that we'd need to start being a lot more careful.

But in his case, Jack being Jack, the lesson he took away was that Sepp Blatter would find a way to cover for him no matter what he did. No reason to change a thing.

So when that Norwegian newspaper came up with documents last Fall proving that Warner had conspired to peddle hundreds of World Cup 2010 Soccer News Topics tickets on the black market, the news shouldn't have been as stunning as it was. Everyone scratched their heads and said "How on Earth can this guy be doing the same damn stuff he almost got nailed for back in 06?"

But the answer was really quite simple: he was Jack Warner, and he could get away with anything; Blatter had his back and, particularly in the middle of an election campaign, he could get away with anything.

Which is how we got to the T&T meeting.

Chuck Blazer, his oldest and closest ally for all those years, the man who had put him in office to begin with - even the idea of Warner running for President of CONCACAF as a replacement for an ancient, deaf Mexican guy, was originally Blazers' - warned him not to do it, telling him that it was stretching the rules farther than FIFA could ignore.

Jack didn't care. There was $350,000 worth of business for Simpaul, the travel agency which he told FIFA he no longer owns but which public papers reveal he most certainly does. There was probably some other cash as well. Maybe a lot of it. We'll never know for sure.

And Jack Warner knows as well as anyone that if FIFA has just one hard and fast rule it's that cash gifts are very specifically prohibited for any federation, at any time, for any reason. If someone flies into town and hands you a big sack of money and tells you it's for a soccer program for blind, deaf, mute, paraplegic orphans with AIDS, it doesn't matter. FIFA rules prohibit you from accepting it. You can't take cash. Ever.

Warner didn't care. When someone asked him what Blatter would say if he found out, Warner told him "He wouldn't care" and, based on his experience, he had every reason to believe that it was true.

How reckless it all seems now, how foolish. Teflon Jack, the guy who amassed a personal fortune estimated at US$100,000,000 on a schoolteachers' pension - he apparently clips coupons and reuses coffee filters - is brought down because of a lousy 40 grand being handed to some guy from the Bahamas who nobody had ever heard of.


Now he's claimingthat Sepp brought him down, that Chuck stabbed him in the back, that John Collins Soccer News Topics, the lawyer who had served as his widely feared hatchet man for lo these many years has turned on him and all of it is a power play by vengeful Americans who want to wrest control of CONCACAF away from the CFU and punish him for not getting them the World Cup and who the hell knows what else.

The truth is, I'm not entirely certain that Warner really knows, even now, what really happened; that Sepp put his own ass on the line back in 2006 when he should have been thrown to the wolves, that Blazer refused to throw his own career down the crapper where he was sure Warner had just sent his own.

Not this time.


Offline Socapro

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #954 on: June 22, 2011, 08:49:55 AM »
Requiem for a Heavyweight


That's the title for a David Rudder Tribute song right there!!

Come on Rudder, this is your territory and ah know you is the man to document this one properly in song!!  :P
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 08:52:07 AM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Socapro

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Re: Fifa vice-president Jack Warner resigns
« Reply #955 on: June 22, 2011, 09:29:26 AM »
Warner: My new role is problems of T&T.
By: Yvonne Baboolal (Guardian).


A better heading would have been:

Warner: My new role is problems of T&T prisions.

 :devil:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 12:08:54 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline KND2

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #956 on: June 22, 2011, 09:35:45 AM »
For some people is not the outcome of the hunt it is the thrill of the chase.

jack does things things not because of the result but rather for the thrill of getting away with it.

it is not rational thinking but rather an emotional impluse.

I dont see him stopping but rather trying the same thing with Trinidad money instead of FIFA money.

Jack wants to be the boss!

he want to do what he wants when he wants and how he wants and not answer to anyone.

Offline Cocorite

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #957 on: June 22, 2011, 10:14:08 AM »
And I was just going to wonder out loud if this man doh get tired of being under investigation and living in the courts?
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Offline royal

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #958 on: June 22, 2011, 10:21:22 AM »
And I was just going to wonder out loud if this man doh get tired of being under investigation and living in the courts?


that's a cabinet minister in the Trinidad and Tobago government yuh talking 'bout.

Offline NYtriniwhiteboy..

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Re: The Jack Warner Thread.
« Reply #959 on: June 22, 2011, 10:36:49 AM »
from soccernet.com
Overwhelming' evidence of corruption

There is ''comprehensive, convincing and overwhelming'' evidence that FIFA member Mohamed Bin Hammam tried to bribe officials during his presidential campaign and that Jack Warner was ''an accessory to corruption'', according to a secret report by FIFA's ethics committee.


GettyImages
Bin Hammam: Suspended by FIFA
• Highlights from the report

FIFA announced on Monday that Warner had resigned as FIFA vice-president and quit all football activities, and the world governing body said they had dropped all investigations into him and that ''the presumption of innocence is maintained''.

But the full report of the ethics committee headed by Namibian judge Petrus Damaseb which provisionally suspended Warner and Bin Hammam on May 29 says there was ''prima facie'' evidence that bribes had been paid to officials to support Bin Hammam's campaign for the FIFA presidency, and that Warner had facilitated this.

The pair - two of the three most powerful men in world football - were suspended last month pending a full inquiry. Bin Hammam withdrew as a candidate against Sepp Blatter on the morning of his ethics committee hearing on May 29. Both he and Warner have consistently denied any wrongdoing.

The 17-page ethics committee document setting out their decision was faxed to Warner last week, on June 14, and three days later he informed FIFA he was resigning.

It concludes that there was ''compelling'' evidence that Bin Hammam and Warner arranged a special meeting of the 25 members of the Caribbean Football Union (CFU) on May 10 and 11 in Trinidad and that, with their knowledge, cash gifts were handed over.

Statements from witnesses, described as ''credible and correspondent'' in the report, said they were handed brown envelopes each containing 40,000 US dollars. One of the witnesses, Fred Lunn from the Bahamas, photographed the cash before returning it.

Four witnesses stated that Warner told the CFU delegates on May 11 that the ''money for the 'gifts' allegedly distributed the day before had been apparently provided by Mr Bin Hammam'', the document states.

Warner's evidence to the May 29 hearing is described as ''mere self-serving declarations'' and that he ''failed to provide the FIFA ethics committee with a plausible explanation''.

The report states: ''The comprehensive, convincing and overwhelming evidence permits to conclude prima facie that the accused [Warner] has initiated and arranged a special meeting of the CFU member associations for Mr Bin Hammam.

''Furthermore on the occasion of this meeting it seems Mr Bin Hammam offered, at least indirectly and under the pledge of secrecy, to each of the member associations an envelope containing USD 40,000.

''The FIFA ethics committee is of the primary opinion that the accused [Warner] had knowledge of the respective payments and condoned them.

''It seems quite likely that the accused [Warner] contributed himself to the relevant actions, thereby acting as an accessory to corruption.''

The report adds: ''The committee is also of the opinion that the respective money gifts can probably only be explained if they are associated with the FIFA presidential elections of 1 June 2011.

''Therefore it appears rather compelling to consider the actions of Mr Bin Hammam constitute prima facie an act of bribery, or at least an attempt to commit bribery.

''It appears prima facie impossible, in the opinion of the FIFA ethics committee, that the accused [Warner] could have considered the money distributed... as legally or ethically proper and without any connection to the upcoming FIFA presidential election.

''Consequently, the accused would at least be considered as an accessory to the aforementioned violations.''

The ethics committee report goes on to say that the facts ''eventually lead to the primary conclusion that Mr Bin Hammam appears to have intended to influence the voting behaviour of the CFU member associations on the occasion of the FIFA presidential elections in his favour.''

The revelations contained in the secret report have provoked a call for FIFA to re-open the case against Warner.

Damian Collins, the Tory MP who is campaigning for a reform of FIFA, said: ''This makes FIFA's claim that Jack Warner can be presumed innocent absolutely incredible. I believe Jack Warner should be made to answer these charges - it's not enough just for him to resign.

''This shows it was a big error of judgement by Sepp Blatter to call off the inquiry and cover this up.

''FIFA should also confirm that Mohamed Bin Hammam should not similarly be allowed to resign in return for having the investigation dropped.''

There have been reports that Warner is entitled to around £20,000 a year as pension from FIFA and Collins also called for the organisation to state that he is not eligible for such payments.

Bin Hammam said in a statement: ''There is nothing I can say more than I deny the allegations and insist that I have not done anything wrong during the special Congress at Trinidad.''
Back in Trini...

 

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