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Author Topic: The Jack Warner Thread.  (Read 345544 times)

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Offline FF

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He cover heself dey in a sense. He appealed to the need for solidarity...said if yuh doh want it fine.

Interestingly this is one time you could argue he was looking out for CFU interest without him gaining in a major way.

Where de TnT $40,000?  :devil:

Camps on record saying he ent get no money and he ent know nothing bout that
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$

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Will he do the right thing and resign??

yeah right....

EDIT: I now take in de video...  :rotfl: dey need subtitles for Jack yes...
plenty times they put inaudible and is just Jack stuttering and stammering lol

FALL ON YOUR SWORD JACK.... this is very embarrassing to the country!

I actually disagree with your take... the deeper we get into this thing the more hypocritical FIFA seems, and the more sympathetic they make Jack appear.  Clearly the recording was done surreptitiously, implying that the person was either planted there to get the 'evidence', or that Jack was otherwise set up for a fall.

And what does the "evidence" show?  According to Jack, Bin Hamman was going to bring some silver plaques and other trinkets for distribution. Jack told him to put a price on it and make the gift cash instead (for good reason).  According to Jack (I have to keep saying that, because all we have is his words) he told Bin Hamman that he will not guarantee any votes and from the clip he makes it clear to the CFU members that they were under no obligation to vote for Bin Hamman or anyone else... in fact they didn't even have to tell him (Warner) how they intended to vote... so exactly how was this supposed to be 'buying votes' by Bin Hamman?
Jack instead make a very cogent argument for the CFU to vote as a bloc, b/c they could control the fate of the next President that way rather than by splintering the vote... a very solid argument.  He is lukewarm about another 4 years of Blatter, and clearly apprehensive of Platini succeeding Blatter, as is currently the plan.  I don't know much about Platini's politics or why Jack see him as such a threat... but on everything else I fully agree with Jack.  It is clear that this meeting wasn't to buy anyone's vote or to bribe officials. Yes by giving them cash some crooked individuals could keep it for themselves, but Jack made it clear that they could (should?) use if for their local FA ("development, pay salaries") and at no point is it implied that this was a personal gift to the individual.

In any other forum this meeting and what was discussed would seem reasonable, but clearly FIFA (and the other 10 CONCACAF members) saw this as a threat to the status quo, saw it as a chance to break up the CFU as a bloc, and since they could make up their own laws, they decided that this was a bribe thing, and a breach of ethics.  Sadly the rest of the world, and some ah allyuh fall fuh it.

Hoss I lissenin the words and waiting to hear this is in exchange for your vote.  People like dey mad or maybe is de legal eye dat ha me an you seeing this similarly because that is far far from a smoking gun.  In fact that proves that what Jack has said in public is no different than what he told CFU members.  FIFA and the media playing on people's ignorance and hatred fuh Jack.  Me eh go ever say de man clean but so far is smoke and mirrors and funhouse magic dey usin to make it seem like he do something worth investigating.

Offline Sam

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This news is disturbing me a lot.

You guys are so amazing here its a shame.

Jack tried to form a Caribbean unity.

Give Caribbean people a voice.

Fight for CFU instead of being run by a European who have no interest in Caribbean football.

You wouldn't believe the benefits CFU would have had if Bin Hammam had won election.

Do you believe Platini or Blatter would do a better job.

These white men does not give a rats behind about CFU.

Jack fought hard for Concacaf, we had two places before ladies and gentlemen, he got us 3.5, no one else would have done the same.

Now Platini will inherit FIFA and CFU and Concacaf is doomed.

Be careful what you wish for.

Europeans laugh at us guys. They are slave drivers, especially the French.

The Mexicans and Guatemalans are for themselves.

USA is Chuck Blazer's world, and believe you me, he have no respect for small island people, a typical American.

Can you guys see the benefits and favouritism European countries gets comepare to the others.

We need a minority in FIFA who have us at heart.

Who ever taped this will soon feel the pinch, I am surprise one of our own sold us for pennies.

Jack will be laughing soon. !!!!!!!

Ask yourself why the T&T Gov cut Jack from transportation minister, he buy 5 babagreen machines and give he son de big contracts to fix all the roads in T&T.

De point is, he to dam greedy and deserve what he get.

Take some nah, but not all....
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Offline ZURITRESS

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Benefits of evil is still wrong(Jack Warner
« Reply #1173 on: October 12, 2011, 02:02:18 PM »
There are people on here saying how Jack do alot of good with his bad. Jack Warner never did anything that he did not benefit from. Usually that meant financially, it was and always will be about money for him. People who have anything good to say about jack needs to understand even the devil does advertise and it always looks good but is or will it last.

Offline Football supporter

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This news is disturbing me a lot.

You guys are so amazing here its a shame.

Jack tried to form a Caribbean unity.

Give Caribbean people a voice.

Fight for CFU instead of being run by a European who have no interest in Caribbean football.

You wouldn't believe the benefits CFU would have had if Bin Hammam had won election.

Do you believe Platini or Blatter would do a better job.

These white men does not give a rats behind about CFU.

Jack fought hard for Concacaf, we had two places before ladies and gentlemen, he got us 3.5, no one else would have done the same.

Now Platini will inherit FIFA and CFU and Concacaf is doomed.

Be careful what you wish for.

Europeans laugh at us guys. They are slave drivers, especially the French.

The Mexicans and Guatemalans are for themselves.

USA is Chuck Blazer's world, and believe you me, he have no respect for small island people, a typical American.

Can you guys see the benefits and favouritism European countries gets comepare to the others.

We need a minority in FIFA who have us at heart.

Who ever taped this will soon feel the pinch, I am surprise one of our own sold us for pennies.

Jack will be laughing soon. !!!!!!!

Sunshine, we've all put up with your nonsense because its kinda amusing. But at this point, you need to start being serious or go away. I understand your xenophobia about Europeans, and I agree to some extent that CFU should work together. But that should not mean breaking laws, gerrymandering elections and encouraging the rest of the world to view the CFU as a bunch of corruptable crooks.

"Europeans laugh at us guys."  Of course they do. Look at how Warner keeps involving himself in controversy, some of it very close to illegal, yet CFU keep him in place. Why do you think bin Hamman set his sights on the CFU? Because, as everyone knows, it is corruptable. Warner has engineered a bunch of yes men into powerful positions.

Its time that he stops tarnishing the good names of the citizens of the Caribbean. Gibbs wanted evidence, now he has it. I don't know if its admissible in court, but this video confirms that over half a million US dollars appeared in T&T. If it was brought into the country in cash, Warner is an accessory after the fact. He certainly condoned the offering of cash gifts to a person seeking election. That may not be a crime, but it is immoral and directly goes against the principle on which he and the PP were elected. Where's the honesty, the transparency and the punishing of those involved in corruption?

If Warner stays, what message are we sending to the rest of the world and our young people? The fact that he is involved in a court case surrounding missing millions and his apparent act of perjury by submitting innaccurate accounts should be enough for him to resign. And now this.   
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 02:15:07 PM by Football supporter »

Offline Bourbon

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He cover heself dey in a sense. He appealed to the need for solidarity...said if yuh doh want it fine.

Interestingly this is one time you could argue he was looking out for CFU interest without him gaining in a major way.

Where de TnT $40,000?  :devil:

Camps on record saying he ent get no money and he ent know nothing bout that

Dahs de ting. He say..if yuh doh want it..return it..and i go carry it back. Do the maths.
The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus ;with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

Offline weary1969

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He cover heself dey in a sense. He appealed to the need for solidarity...said if yuh doh want it fine.

Interestingly this is one time you could argue he was looking out for CFU interest without him gaining in a major way.

Where de TnT $40,000?  :devil:



Camps on record saying he ent get no money and he ent know nothing bout that

Dahs de ting. He say..if yuh doh want it..return it..and i go carry it back. Do the maths.


No need 2 bribe Jack he already had his vote so dey eh get no money
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Tallman

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Jack Warner's statement on release of CFU meeting tape
« Reply #1177 on: October 12, 2011, 02:23:34 PM »
Jack Warner's statement on release of CFU meeting tape
ctntworld.com


It is rather interesting that on the very day that Caribbean Football Union (CFU) delegates are to appear before the disciplinary committee of FIFA that a video tape of this nature is released for international viewing on the World Wide Web.
 
The release of this video is tantamount to contempt because it seeks to influence international opinion against what is clearly a conspiracy against the delegates of the Caribbean Football Union. Moreover there are lot more questions which the FIFA should answer from this convenient revelation.
 
The Caribbean delegates are currently in Zurich and are actively involved in disciplinary proceedings established by the FIFA so this leak is clearly sub judicious and contrary to the very principles of law and justice.
 
Regretfully, this is what defines the FIFA; a perceived right to do all in its power, right or wrong, to defend its own.
 
The Caribbean Football Union delegates must be found guilty if Sepp Blatter is to appear as an honourable man weeding out corruption from the FIFA. So the tiny Union in the Caribbean must be the scapegoat; and a team of officials, all Swiss and strategically located along the FIFA's hierarchical strata is in place to ensure that their Swiss brother, Sepp Blatter, emerges with his integrity intact.
 
As Chuck Blazer has just "found out", it is not a matter of coincidence that the Chairman of the FIFA Ethics Committee, Claudio Sulser, is Swiss. It is not a matter of chance that the Chairman of the Disciplinary Committee, Marcel Mathier, also happens to be Swiss. It is not through any democratic process that the same Marcel Mathier happened to have been Sepp Blatter's Swiss lawyer. It is therefore not uncanny that Bin Hammam was charged with corruption prior to the FIFA elections to protect the interest of another Swiss, the unopposed President of FIFA.
 
Clearly, the Swiss seems to have a morality of its own.
 
Gentlemen permit me a few more moments of blissful silence. In the near future, all will be revealed. FIFA cannot be allowed to continue tarnishing the images and characters of good men. For it is clear that the FIFA is determined to stop at nothing as they seek to destroy, to extirpate those they have defined as their enemies from any sphere of influence.
 
However, truth crushed to the ground will rise again. At the end of the day, the truth will prevail. In time, truth will always arise.
 
It is informative to note that :
- never before has a covert video been made, let alone been published, in the history of CFU
- it is clear that those who recorded the meeting and subsequently made certain that the video went global, are engaged in entrapment
- it is therefore not paranoia nor mindless talk to speak of a conspiracy by those who had an agenda: the one to weaken the CONCACAF through its largest voting bloc, the CFU, and thus ascertain that Caribbean men and women are excluded from the decision-making process in CONCACAF and FIFA in the future.
 
Respectfully submitted
Jack Warner
Former FIFA Vice President
The Conquering Lion of Judah shall break every chain.

Offline weary1969

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I wished he di also sign former MP and Former Minister

But Jack timing is evrything he eh learn dat yet?
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Football supporter

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"This "bribe" as allyuh insist on painting it, is as improper as the bribe by the British to help develop facilities in Trinidad, as improper as them coming to TnT to play a meaningless friendly, as improper as Beckham holding a clinic for local kids... all clearly meant to influence Warner's support of the English WC bid. All of this was done in the open... why didn't FIFA charge Warner... and Lord Triesman et al over that?   The answer clearly is hypocrisy."

Bakes, I find so much in this statement of yours that is shocking. First of all, you put bribe in inverted commas, but FIFA have found bin Hamman guilty of offering the bribe. Now I know he is appealing, but as a man of the law, even if you think the decision is wrong, it is now a fact until proven otherwise.

There is a system in place to allow bidding countries to make gifts. I don't agree with this, but it is clearly there to prevent corruption as much as possible. I guess we all believe corruption and bribery is still rife within FIFA, but those gifts that you describe are legal by FIFA guidelines and they were all done in the open. There is no hypocrisy there.

Jacks "crime", if there is one - and I believe there is- is both against FIFA and the laws of T&T. He admitted on the video that he told bin Hamman to bring cash. He knew bin Hamman was flying into T&T and therefore he encouraged him to break T&T laws regarding currency transportation. As a Govt Minister, once bin Hamman delivered the cash to Jack, he is compelled, by not only his sworn oath to uphold the laws of T&T as a member of parliament, but also as a member of the Peoples Partnership which promised to rid T&T of corruption and to act with honesty, transparency and integrity, to hand over the funds to the authorities and identify the perpetrator.

Finally, Jack was the person who acted as conduit between bin Hamman and CFU when distributing funds. Why didn't bin Hamman just distribute it if there was nothing wrong? Why did delegates have to go into a private room? Why wasn't the money just transferred to the Federations individual accounts? The answer is because bin Hamman wanted no evidence. But if there was nothing wrong with giving a gift, why the secrecy?

Any way you look at this, it was immoral. It was a secret transaction.

The naivety is to say there was no attempt at buying votes. If you don't want it to appear so, you bring a silver tray with a camel engraved on it and "Greetings from Dubai". That's a nice gesture and practically worthless financially. Or you send cheques for the setting up of the bin Hamman coaching school in each country.

Since Eve charged Adam a dollar for a bite of her apple, cash is the chief currency of corruption and if you want to remain clear of bribery allegations, you do not smuggle (and it was smuggling) cash into a foreign country and distribute it individually behind closed doors through a third party.

Offline Babalawo

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it good for the facka. now bury him tnt. oh wait hes running the country  :pissedoff:

Offline Socapro

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I can agree with Jack in most of what he has said there in that ststement!

However if the Honourable Minister knew that FIFA is so corrupt in its operational practices all these years then why did he stay with them so long and became FIFA's longest serving executive member before he was forced to resign?

He suddenly knows that they are corrupt to the core now but did not know this while he was a VP?

Anyway at least Jack is now willing to speak out on FIFA corruption at some stage so we still eagerly await his promised tsunami!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:43:39 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Football supporter

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Surely this is wrong:  "However, truth crushed to the ground will rise again"  Shouldn't that read "raise again"?  :rotfl:

"it is clear that those who recorded the meeting and subsequently made certain that the video went global, are engaged in entrapment" Of course its entrapment. You can't go on for ever pissing people off and expect no revenge. But what Jack fails to point out is that you can't be trapped unless you're doing something wrong. You can't take the moral high ground when you've been caught.

This statement is disgusting. Where's the apology to the citizens of T&T for tarnishing the country all over the world? Any righteous person would apologise, say he made an error of judgement, but for the right reasons, and resign from public life. 

Offline College

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Surely this is wrong:  "However, truth crushed to the ground will rise again"  Shouldn't that read "raise again"?  :rotfl:

"it is clear that those who recorded the meeting and subsequently made certain that the video went global, are engaged in entrapment" Of course its entrapment. You can't go on for ever pissing people off and expect no revenge. But what Jack fails to point out is that you can't be trapped unless you're doing something wrong. You can't take the moral high ground when you've been caught.

This statement is disgusting. Where's the apology to the citizens of T&T for tarnishing the country all over the world? Any righteous person would apologise, say he made an error of judgement, but for the right reasons, and resign from public life. 

Agree with you 100%, but the reality is Jack in not going to make an apology (too late now imo) and the only way he would 'resign' is if the people put pressure on the Government.  This is unlikely to happen since  apathy and indifference is very much alive in T&T. The average citizen will forget about it , the media is too lazy to do what is necessary and have seemingly forgotten their roles in a democratic T&T.

Offline Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$

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FS like u have ah dread cockstan fuh Jack hoss.  U honestly see something incriminating in da video guy? 

Offline Football supporter

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FS like u have ah dread cockstan fuh Jack hoss.  U honestly see something incriminating in da video guy? 

Not incriminating in that Jack actually broke the law. But that he was aware laws were being possibly broken and that he was an accessory. He did act as the conduit between bin Hamman and the delegates, which is suspect. He also, by his own admission, told bin Hamman to bring cash, when he should have been aware that this volume of cash has to be declared at the airport which he controls. Once the money arrived undeclared, it is his DUTY to inform the authorities. You can't just take off your M.P.s hat and put on your CFU, CONCACAF or FIFA hat. You must wear them all, at all times, with his governmental role always taking precedence.

Look at the outcry about Kamla staying at the GoPaul house, then a year later he wins a contract. That was all probably innocent, but it caused outrage. On the other hand, the whole world knows that Jack helped bin Hamman secretly distribute cash  that was smuggled in (and out) of the country in defiance of T&T laws.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 03:52:11 PM by Football supporter »

Offline Bakes

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"This "bribe" as allyuh insist on painting it, is as improper as the bribe by the British to help develop facilities in Trinidad, as improper as them coming to TnT to play a meaningless friendly, as improper as Beckham holding a clinic for local kids... all clearly meant to influence Warner's support of the English WC bid. All of this was done in the open... why didn't FIFA charge Warner... and Lord Triesman et al over that?   The answer clearly is hypocrisy."

Bakes, I find so much in this statement of yours that is shocking. First of all, you put bribe in inverted commas, but FIFA have found bin Hamman guilty of offering the bribe. Now I know he is appealing, but as a man of the law, even if you think the decision is wrong, it is now a fact until proven otherwise. 1

There is a system in place to allow bidding countries to make gifts. I don't agree with this, but it is clearly there to prevent corruption as much as possible. I guess we all believe corruption and bribery is still rife within FIFA, but those gifts that you describe are legal by FIFA guidelines and they were all done in the open. There is no hypocrisy there. 2

Jacks "crime", if there is one - and I believe there is- is both against FIFA and the laws of T&T. He admitted on the video that he told bin Hamman to bring cash. He knew bin Hamman was flying into T&T and therefore he encouraged him to break T&T laws regarding currency transportation. As a Govt Minister, once bin Hamman delivered the cash to Jack, he is compelled, by not only his sworn oath to uphold the laws of T&T as a member of parliament, but also as a member of the Peoples Partnership which promised to rid T&T of corruption and to act with honesty, transparency and integrity, to hand over the funds to the authorities and identify the perpetrator. 3

Finally, Jack was the person who acted as conduit between bin Hamman and CFU when distributing funds. Why didn't bin Hamman just distribute it if there was nothing wrong? Why did delegates have to go into a private room? Why wasn't the money just transferred to the Federations individual accounts? The answer is because bin Hamman wanted no evidence. But if there was nothing wrong with giving a gift, why the secrecy? 4

Any way you look at this, it was immoral. It was a secret transaction.

The naivety is to say there was no attempt at buying votes. If you don't want it to appear so, you bring a silver tray with a camel engraved on it and "Greetings from Dubai". That's a nice gesture and practically worthless financially. Or you send cheques for the setting up of the bin Hamman coaching school in each country. 5

Since Eve charged Adam a dollar for a bite of her apple, cash is the chief currency of corruption and if you want to remain clear of bribery allegations, you do not smuggle (and it was smuggling) cash into a foreign country and distribute it individually behind closed doors through a third party. 6

1You have to be naive or dotish to be really making the argument that because FIFA say there was a bribe, that their assertion makes it fact.  FIFA have also said that Blatter's conduct in office is beyond reproach, and that prior to this Jack was clean (save for the "ticket or leave it" fiasco)... I suppose we can take these to the bank as well, right?  I can't believe you of all people would even be trying to make an argument founded on anything coming out of FIFA. This is what is really "shocking".  The reason for "bribe" being in quotes is because people are using this as an argument that Jack broke the law... clearly where this "bribe" is concerned no laws were broken.  This is the reason for the quotes... it really not that hard to understand.

2 "There is a system in place to allow bidding countries to make gifts. I don't agree with this, but it is clearly there to prevent corruption as much as possible."

Pardon me while I regain my composure from laughing at this nonsense.  If you don't see the hypocrisy it's because you don't want to see it.

3 There is so much that is ridiculous about this paragraph that I almost don't know where to begin.  Because Jack knew that BH was bringing cash into the country or encouraged him to bring cash into the country that means that Jack broke the law?  Whose law... yours?  What compels him to hand over the cash BH intended for the CFU... your words?  Your sense of what's right or wrong?  steups..

4  Jack stated why he thought it would be wiser to act as the "conduit" rather than have BH hand over the money himself.  It's hardly the big conspiracy you're so desperate (and have always been desperate) to spin it into.

5 "Immoral"??  Really?  I hope you realize there is a difference between "immoral" and "unethical" behavior... and it's even arguable whether what he did is unethical. If what's on the tape is to believed then Jack acted in the best interest of the CFU.  I tickles me to no end listening to you, the English press and some of the others here carrying on like  is child prostitutes Jack was trafficking in.  How would BH sending "cheques for setting up coaching schools in each country" be different from cash payments?  Or is it only a bribe when you feel like calling it that?

6 I won't even bother responding to this nonsense.

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: Benefits of evil is still wrong(Jack Warner
« Reply #1187 on: October 12, 2011, 05:37:58 PM »
 ??? ???

Just so??  Out of the blue??  uuuuummm thanks but a whole new thread to say this??  How long you been on this forum??   :-\
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Football supporter

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Bakes, thanks for your input, but as usual with you and I, we see things completely differently. I do actually feel very disappointed that you fail to agree (not that you have to!) with some of my points, because from my view they are so obvious. I also am disappointed with your general tone and lack of respect. You have the linguistic ability to argue against my points without resorting to sarcasm, ridicule and condescension.  However, as much as I want to avoid another one of our marathon discussions, I can't let this one go:

"Immoral"??  Really?  I hope you realize there is a difference between "immoral" and "unethical" behavior... and it's even arguable whether what he did is unethical. If what's on the tape is to believed then Jack acted in the best interest of the CFU.  I tickles me to no end listening to you, the English press and some of the others here carrying on like  is child prostitutes Jack was trafficking in." 

Bakes, I've seen you stating on the General Discussion thread all sorts of reasons why this is wrong or this is right etc. But unless I'm greatly mistaken, the above statement is condoning lawbreaking because its just a minor law. Is that what you meant by "carrying on like  is child prostitutes Jack was trafficking in."? Maybe if we were talking about Camps, I could understand (but not agree with) your point. But how can you give a bligh to a Cabinet Minister who turns a blind eye to illegal activity in his own country? Are you one of the people who think policemen should not be prosecuted for drunk driving, or Ministers not being fined for speeding or driving while banned? After all, they're not trafficking in child prostitutes. Where does this ignoring laws end? What about letting off some young kids who only had 3 small bags of cocaine or a guy who was just carrying a small knife? Hey, lets help out Duprey, coz no one got hurt, right?

While I would admit to preying that if I ever got stopped on the highway and was slightly over the limit the cops would give me a bligh, this is a government minister who had prior knowledge of a financial transaction that is required by T&T law to be declared. He failed to defend the laws that he swore he would uphold, before, during and after, and then turned another blind eye to a further 24 such incidents.

Or do we just ignore the "big fish"? Warner's govt is locking up people everyday, many on very thin evidence and in some cases, for fairly insignificant crimes. Yet its ok for Jack? Come on Bakes, you criticised me before because there was no evidence for Gibbs to launch an investigation, now we have it in his own words, which he has admitted was him speaking.

You know perfectly well that the law states you must make a declaration if you are bringing more than a specified amount of foreign currency in or out of the country. I don't understand why you will not admit this. You also know that if somebody has knowledge of such an incidence and fails to report it, they can be accused of conspiracy or being an accessory (I think you lawyers say before and after the fact?). I'm sure you will know the correct term. And we musn't forget the testimony that reported that delegates were given a cell phone number to call if they had trouble taking the money out of the country (although this was not investigated, so its just an allegation at this point.)
So, these are not my laws, but the laws of T&T, unless I'm mistaken.

Offline Brownsugar

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However, as much as I want to avoid another one of our marathon discussions,

Lawd knows I never even got around to reading the last one......  :devil: ;D
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Bakes

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Bakes, thanks for your input, but as usual with you and I, we see things completely differently. I do actually feel very disappointed that you fail to agree (not that you have to!) with some of my points, because from my view they are so obvious. I also am disappointed with your general tone and lack of respect. You have the linguistic ability to argue against my points without resorting to sarcasm, ridicule and condescension.  However, as much as I want to avoid another one of our marathon discussions, I can't let this one go:

"Immoral"??  Really?  I hope you realize there is a difference between "immoral" and "unethical" behavior... and it's even arguable whether what he did is unethical. If what's on the tape is to believed then Jack acted in the best interest of the CFU.  I tickles me to no end listening to you, the English press and some of the others here carrying on like  is child prostitutes Jack was trafficking in." 

Bakes, I've seen you stating on the General Discussion thread all sorts of reasons why this is wrong or this is right etc. But unless I'm greatly mistaken, the above statement is condoning lawbreaking because its just a minor law. Is that what you meant by "carrying on like  is child prostitutes Jack was trafficking in."? Maybe if we were talking about Camps, I could understand (but not agree with) your point. But how can you give a bligh to a Cabinet Minister who turns a blind eye to illegal activity in his own country? Are you one of the people who think policemen should not be prosecuted for drunk driving, or Ministers not being fined for speeding or driving while banned? After all, they're not trafficking in child prostitutes. Where does this ignoring laws end? What about letting off some young kids who only had 3 small bags of cocaine or a guy who was just carrying a small knife? Hey, lets help out Duprey, coz no one got hurt, right?

While I would admit to preying that if I ever got stopped on the highway and was slightly over the limit the cops would give me a bligh, this is a government minister who had prior knowledge of a financial transaction that is required by T&T law to be declared. He failed to defend the laws that he swore he would uphold, before, during and after, and then turned another blind eye to a further 24 such incidents.

Or do we just ignore the "big fish"? Warner's govt is locking up people everyday, many on very thin evidence and in some cases, for fairly insignificant crimes. Yet its ok for Jack? Come on Bakes, you criticised me before because there was no evidence for Gibbs to launch an investigation, now we have it in his own words, which he has admitted was him speaking.

You know perfectly well that the law states you must make a declaration if you are bringing more than a specified amount of foreign currency in or out of the country. I don't understand why you will not admit this. You also know that if somebody has knowledge of such an incidence and fails to report it, they can be accused of conspiracy or being an accessory (I think you lawyers say before and after the fact?). I'm sure you will know the correct term. And we musn't forget the testimony that reported that delegates were given a cell phone number to call if they had trouble taking the money out of the country (although this was not investigated, so its just an allegation at this point.)
So, these are not my laws, but the laws of T&T, unless I'm mistaken.

I'm sorry, but I am not the most patient person... and you've been making the same irrational arguments ever since this broke in May.

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But unless I'm greatly mistaken, the above statement is condoning lawbreaking because its just a minor law.

You are greatly mistaken... I was not referring to any lawbreaking but to the alleged bribes, and I made that pretty clear by referencing what was on the tape and the CFU benefiting.  The rest of what you type in that paragraph about Ministers speeding and policemen drinking is unnecessarily tangential.

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this is a government minister who had prior knowledge of a financial transaction that is required by T&T law to be declared. He failed to defend the laws that he swore he would uphold, before, during and after, and then turned another blind eye to a further 24 such incidents.

So let me get this straight... you're saying Jack should have 1) called customs to let them know BH was coming into the country with cash; 2) After BH met him at the Hyatt he should have asked him whether he declared the cash; 3) While or after BH was here Jack should have called customs to let them know he didn't declare the cash.  This is your argument?  Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds... seriously?

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Come on Bakes, you criticised me before because there was no evidence for Gibbs to launch an investigation, now we have it in his own words, which he has admitted was him speaking.

Now you're coming with this "evidence" talk... what evidence is there? Does the tape reveal that Jack Warner told Bin Hamman "don't worry about declaring the money, I will take care of that"?  Please elaborate on the evidence that Gibbs now supposedly has.

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You know perfectly well that the law states you must make a declaration if you are bringing more than a specified amount of foreign currency in or out of the country. I don't understand why you will not admit this.

Wtf are you talking about me not admitting this... I posted the facking law back in that other "Bin Hamman" thread months ago. How am I not admitting what the law states?

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You also know that if somebody has knowledge of such an incidence and fails to report it, they can be accused of conspiracy or being an accessory

Actually I know no such thing.  If YOU know a man is setting up to rob a store and you don't go to the police, does that mean that you have conspired with the bank robber? Do you really think about what you're saying before posting it?  Then you get upset when I use words like "ridiculous" and "nonsense" to describe it.  That's exactly what this line of thinking is... ridiculous.

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And we musn't forget the testimony that reported that delegates were given a cell phone number to call if they had trouble taking the money out of the country (although this was not investigated, so its just an allegation at this point.)

Lol... "testimony"... okay.  Since you concede this is just an "allegation" then I don't think we need to dwell on it any further.

Offline royal

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I ain't know legal person but to me that video is a waste of time.It ain't say anything to hang Jack.FIFA pass IOC as the most corrupt international sporting body.

Offline Football supporter

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"So let me get this straight... you're saying Jack should have 1) called customs to let them know BH was coming into the country with cash; 2) After BH met him at the Hyatt he should have asked him whether he declared the cash; 3) While or after BH was here Jack should have called customs to let them know he didn't declare the cash.  This is your argument?  Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds... seriously?"

I will only answer this section.
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes

Why is this so ridiculous? First Warner should have advised bin Hamman to transfer funds into each Federation account, by wire or by cheque...after all, its not a bribe, right, so why does it have to be cash in an envelope passed in private? Secondly, his reasoning for this should have been to ensure bin Hamman did not attempt to bring undeclared foreign currency into the country. Thirdly, if, as you say, Warner was working in the best interests of CFU, he would not have wanted them to carry undeclared currency out of the country and become involved in a scandal if caught.

As you know, I'm no lawyer and sometimes my concept of right and wrong does not reflect the law. However, I'm damn sure that you can be charged in some way if you know of an impending crime and do not help to prevent it, if you are aware a crime is taking place and you do not prevent it, and if you have knowledge of a crime that has taken place but do not report it. But, of course, I may be wrong about that. But if there is no law as such, I'm pretty damn sure it is not acceptable in any civilised country for a cabinet minister to be associated with a crime that he had full knowledge of, and still retain his position in the government.

Because you say you are arguing about the alleged bribes, they still form part of the lawbreaking, as the cash brought in was undeclared and the cash taken out was undeclared.

To clear things up lets make it simple. Person A tells Person B to bring drugs into the country. Person B brings in the drugs and Person A distributes them. Persons C to AA take the drugs out of the country to 25 other countries. Now I know drugs are far more serious than a bit of money laundering, but the concept is the same. Person A would be deemed the Mr Big who orchestrated the plan. Person B would be the International drug kingpin and the 25 others would be the local drug barons.

If the laws on non decleration of foreign currency have been broken, Warner was involved.

Offline MEP

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Bakes:
 
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There is so much that is ridiculous about this paragraph that I almost don't know where to begin.  Because Jack knew that BH was bringing cash into the country or encouraged him to bring cash into the country that means that Jack broke the law?  Whose law... yours?  What compels him to hand over the cash BH intended for the CFU... your words?  Your sense of what's right or wrong?  steups..

Jack was an accessory after the fact. If you are entering the country with as much cash as BH did, you have to declare it.
The issue is...was it declared? NO.
Did Jack know that BH was bringing in cash? Yes and as much as that is a gray area we've heard Jack advising him to bring in cash therefore he was conspiring with BH.


Offline Bakes

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MEP you're out of your league and speculating... no offense.  If you insist that Jack is guilty of "conspiring with BH" then I'll ask you to cite for me the definition of conspiracy under TT law and explain how Jack's actions fit the definition.  If you insist he's an accessory after the fact, then I charge you with the same task.

FS, all I can tell you is that for all your smarts you can be hopelessly naive at times. What is "acceptable" and what actually happens in reality are often oceans apart.  You, MEP and others seem to think conjecture is enough to drag Jack into courts... good luck with allyuh campaign.  Next time yuh see ah fella smoking weed ah want yuh to go to de nearest police station and either report it, or turn yuhself in after the fact for not reporting it.

Offline just cool

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This news is disturbing me a lot.

You guys are so amazing here its a shame.

Jack tried to form a Caribbean unity.

Give Caribbean people a voice.

Fight for CFU instead of being run by a European who have no interest in Caribbean football.

You wouldn't believe the benefits CFU would have had if Bin Hammam had won election.

Do you believe Platini or Blatter would do a better job.

These white men does not give a rats behind about CFU.

Jack fought hard for Concacaf, we had two places before ladies and gentlemen, he got us 3.5, no one else would have done the same.

Now Platini will inherit FIFA and CFU and Concacaf is doomed.

Be careful what you wish for.

Europeans laugh at us guys. They are slave drivers, especially the French.

The Mexicans and Guatemalans are for themselves.

USA is Chuck Blazer's world, and believe you me, he have no respect for small island people, a typical American.

Can you guys see the benefits and favouritism European countries gets comepare to the others.

We need a minority in FIFA who have us at heart.

Who ever taped this will soon feel the pinch, I am surprise one of our own sold us for pennies.

Jack will be laughing soon. !!!!!!!
Bred this is my honest opinion. i believe that jack warner was and still is good for concacaf and CFU, no if ands or buts, but he was awfully bad for T&T football. no if ands or buts.


PS: how could you be ah fair minded man and give 6,000 TTD to our players for 3 WC games, when we made 188mil total ? what part of that is even humane. according to pfister, that is crimes against humanity, in other word, fackin slavery!!!!!!!
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline vb

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You have to wonder how much this really hurting JW.

He says that Blatter knew about the money up front.

He also said that anyone could refuse the money.

And that Bin Hamin is not guaranteed a vote.

Interesting.

VB
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Offline JDB

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If it was "two separate observations" then I am not the one connecting them

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I see Lisle Austin get a shout out from Jack and it confirm some of the warped workings of the man’s mind.

It is clear that in your mind the shout out "confirmed" things about the workings of Warner's mind... but whatever.  He didn't even call Austin by name... but again, if that is some kinda "shout out" worthy of highlighting to you, then so be it.

As I tried to explain that is not what “is clear in my mind”. I was commenting on the transcript and making two separate observations as in - I see Lise Austin get shout out (in the transcript) and it (the transcript) confirms Warner’s warped thinking.

As for the rest of what you type... it seems apparent to me that you didn't watch the video and just (mis)read the transcripts.  Jack never said anything about keeping anything secret... in fact he clearly states that what was being discussed in the room was no secret to FIFA, since he let Blatter know what was going on.

Yes I read the transcript and while he talks about Blatter being aware he also expresses dismay at delegates sharing details of the meeting with the Concacaf office in NY, dismay at the media being aware of something. At another point he says that they could disgree and discuss as much as they want but what happens there should stay there.

This "bribe" as allyuh insist on painting it, is as improper as the bribe by the British to help develop facilities in Trinidad, as improper as them coming to TnT to play a meaningless friendly, as improper as Beckham holding a clinic for local kids... all clearly meant to influence Warner's support of the English WC bid. All of this was done in the open... why didn't FIFA charge Warner... and Lord Triesman et al over that?   The answer clearly is hypocrisy.  All of this moral posturing about what was "improper" and what not is just that... posturing.  The issue isn't one of propriety, the issues are illegal behavior that might subject him to TnT law, or unethical behavior that might subject him to FIFA discipline.  No such behavior is present on the film, nor has any such behavior been alleged save for Blazer/FIFA with the "bribe" talk.


I haven’t been pushing any bribe talk as far as him being open to prosecution under TnT law. My point is that Warner’s thinking was terrible flawed.

Even if you consider FIFA’s low ethical standard his failure to foresee problems with facilitating these gifts/grants from a candidate challenging the established leadership indicates that Warner was not thinking as normal people would. He was thinking as he would that everyone of the 25 was corrupt, corruptible, too greedy to pass up free money or too beholden to him as the CFU Czar to object. In fact the first thing I said when this all broke was that Warner got lazy in his scheming and didn’t think things through.

I would also say there are are significant differences between WC bidding and FIFA presidential voting and that this action was unprecedented even within FIFA but that would be a long post. For WC bids you are wooing 24 senior executives, seasoned politicians accustomed to public and private horse trading. This arrangement is offering 40,000 to 25 people who are on a completely different level. More importantly Warner clearly did not have their buy-in from them. My point was that it was warped thinking for Warner to think that this deal would be kosher.
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Offline lefty

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My point was that it was warped thinking for Warner to think that this deal would be kosher.


this is what I been thinkin myself, in fact I called it a dumb move since the CFU will vote as a block talk started up, is like playin all fours an showing yuh hand and yuh only trump a Jack....no pun intended
I pity the fool....

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"FS, all I can tell you is that for all your smarts you can be hopelessly naive at times. What is "acceptable" and what actually happens in reality are often oceans apart.  You, MEP and others seem to think conjecture is enough to drag Jack into courts... good luck with allyuh campaign.  Next time yuh see ah fella smoking weed ah want yuh to go to de nearest police station and either report it, or turn yuhself in after the fact for not reporting it."

I guess this is the problem with T&T. You call me naive, but anybody who hears that recording and believes there was no bribe is beyond naive. Anybody who still believes Warner has never done anything wrong is naive.  People can be caught redhanded and its still not enough.

Yes Bakes, you can argue until time immamorial about this and that but what we heard on the tape is enough to yet again embarrass T&T internationally, force a resignation, and start an investigation. I can understand why some less educated people may not see that, but someone who is educated and has the benefits of living overseas should be, in my opinion, screaming for Jack to go, writing letters to Kamla, the government, other M.P.s, newspapers etc.

I just don't understand your angle.

But then, I remember 5 years ago people on this site saying that Warner will never go to court and the players would never get a red cent. It may take time, but justice will prevail.

As for "ah fella smoking weed ah want yuh to go to de nearest police station and either report it, or turn yuhself in after the fact for not reporting it." why report it, it nots like its trafficking in child protitutes, right?