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TrinInfinite

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Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« on: February 15, 2006, 08:36:50 AM »
Just yesterday I had a good conversation with a friend of mine who is deeply rooted in football in the US and also in Tobago. From the conversation and from a few other conversations with a few individuals that I know. It has dawned to me that football in Trinidad has developed into a recreational sport as opposed to a sport of profession and a way of life.

Analyzing some posters comments about community football and the lack of it is a problem that should be addressed. But at the same instance the money factor comes into play, can some of these youths support themselves on football alone. Suppose they have a kid or kids and or married, will a pfl salary support their way of life? Community football is great, only if to the players its feasible because we are living in a different era. If community/recreational football were to have money in it or would be a grounds of selection of players who want to dedicate themselves to the national or pro league cause, it would be feasible to the youth in Trinidad and Tobago society today.

You won't find a youth giving up a salary twice or three times that of a pro league outfit or super league outfit to play football professionally. He will resort to playing ball on the weekend and in a small league, or as Hardest revealed in the interview they had players working two and three careers and playing in the super league. How can you expect to become a good footballer or even make national when your career is not football?

It is a dielemma we face, because our national players could go to lower leagues in the Uk and still make a nice living but try that at home in Trinidad and Tobago and it will not work, the cost of living just won't wait for the pfl or super league salary.

In further analysis, one point that my friend and I agreed on was that community football has to come back and in a big way. Too many times the pro league teams draw players from other regions to play and not players from that region itself. Community football needs to be invested in and come back as a feeder to the national and pro leagues in Trinidad because the so called "ball whores" have disappeared home because of the cost of living and also the fact that if you were not selected to a pro team and are not dedicated fully to football because you need to survive, national selection would not come.

We have too many obstacles for footballers in Trinidad at present, we need to get rid of these obstacles and link all levels in football together. Starting with having pro league teams and community football in the different regions. We need teams that have players from that region and play ball for a pro league in that region, specialization of football is what is needed.

I think to make it even more fair, the pro leagues and community football should be linked undoubtedly to eachother. The PFL and super leagues should only select players within their zoning region in Trinidad and Tobago. If a player lives outside this zoning region he will play with another team, this could get rid of the disparity in talent and also the big money clubs from always dominating and not allowing other smaller clubs and regions/communities to grow and expand and become feeders of great players to the national teams.

I think community football needs to get back to the heart of football in Trinidad and Tobago and should be linked to the PFL and super leagues, the seperation and the lack of investment has seperated the two, making many potential great players play recreational football because they just can't live by love of football alone, support is needed in many ways and grass roots football in the communities is a start.

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« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 11:51:04 AM by TrinInfinite »

Offline Touches

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2006, 09:12:53 AM »
Trinifinte,

yuh have some good points and yes you need communities to support the football but the real issue is if you take a wholistic view of sport on the whole in TT there is no money to be made in any substantial way.

Football and sports by extension has to compete with Movietown, the dvd pirates and fetes for the man on the streets hard earned dollar which has no real value these days.

Also the quality of the entertainment...i.e the football match must be of value to the individual.

Value is measured on three levels functional,emtional, self worth.......functional being what use/enjoyment am I getting from this, emotional.......mentally how does this satify me and self worth......how does this make me feel and look in the eyes of others.

e.g lara fete, carnival time the ticket price is not reflective of the food, grog and entertainment on display, but what you are paying for is the ambience, the gape at the "wildlife" the interaction with the whos who in society and the Coast or ranks yuh get from telling yuh people...I went that fete, thus the emotional and self worth aspects are satisfied.

Now using the above example.......how does going to a Caledonia fire vs Tobago united compare? On what level does this PFL game provide value to the consumer given the number of substitute activites there are vying for the individuals income.

Which is why only the FCb cup and Big PFL games in TT draw crowd as they include free giveaways, riddim sections, entertainers etc. Thus increasing the value that a fan gets when he walks in.

honestly only when football is the "in" place to be seen, is the lime or the coast for the Non footballing people will it ever generate money.

Also culturally we do not have sport as a viable option in terms of career path. Most pro ballers abroad play only football from primary school age going to academies etc. They are not like the avg school child here in TT who have class, play secondary school ball and o,A levels etc.

This factor immediately puts us behind the curve in developing athletes.

Govnt has a major part to play in the development of sports but buying blimps, taking over sporting grounds etc has taken precidence.

Also when you talk to ole timers about the crowds in the oval and skinnerpark in the days...........remember the quality on display was better and the other substitutes for entertainment were limited......only channel 2 and 13 and before dat no tv. they didnt have cable to rock back and watch Champions league. Their Champions league was the local heroes who walking down the road and sweating after work.

Things have evolved and we must accept that.

I think the best case scenario should not be a good pro league. but the construction of a academy of football. From the time you are 4-5 years old and yuh good you come in. When you step in there you are a footballer and will have classes but is mainly football. The end result is a player to be sold to a foreign team generating revenue. Worse case scenario you will end up on a football schol in a University abroad.

This lil project while far fetched will produce a team in every age group and a good contender for each WC in various age groups.

Then have the various PFl, Semi-pro and minor leagues around the country to continue as is and be a feeder to the academy or national programme.

If a player falls by the wayside due to injury or just not good enough he will be adequately educated and a work programme with various companies be set up so that he can return to society and be a normal citizen.

Far fetched yes........but it can be done.


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Offline Ponnoxx

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2006, 09:42:15 AM »
 Two very good posts, I must say. Trinifinite, I will agree with you on the point that there are too many obstacles in the way of footballers in T&T, but I can't agree with the proposal for Community football and PFL to be so closely joined. There would obviously be some areas, which have an abundance of talent, and some players would get 'left out' if they didn't make the cut. It could also be the case where some areas have a distinct lack of talent and we may see these teams being 'advantaged.' Trinifinite you are very right when you say that the 'ball whores' are becoming non-existent because of all the trials they would have to endure.Touches, with regard to your idea of an academy, and the possible outcomes, I think it is a great idea. However,I think there must be a significant increase in investment and advertising, from the private sector into to PFL first. Football has to compete with many other factors which deprive it of attention. I think they should advertise more and to try to bring out more crowds. I don't think its the case where players don't play a decent brand of football so the crowds don't come out but its more that thee crowds don't come out so players are not motivted enough to play a better brand. The PFL clubs have taken a good directional step toward progress by raring young talent and bringing them up through the ranks.
   I think the Super League should be used as a developmental league and or reserve league. Two very good posts guys ;D

TrinInfinite

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2006, 09:46:04 AM »
very good points touches, de football academies i have mentioned about 3 years ago on the old board to b exact, i remember everything what i wrote about it, but it seems as though our football has lost its die hards from the nation and also bc of tv, people are not attending like dey usually do, however ah think we could improve our football on the community level, after de world cup we need to get football back into the community, we youths have to concentrate on real issues b4 football and dat is swaying out vision and approach

it is skewed bc in other countries such as england dere local league flourishese, i dont see it as impossible in trinidad

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Offline Ponnoxx

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2006, 09:49:24 AM »
 Adidas sponsoring us now...Impossible is Nothing !!!!

Offline pardners

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2006, 09:55:21 AM »
Good posts fellas...my two cents...
TI, is a good suggestion and I believe the PFL and TTFF may already be looking into community teams development.  I think in one of the Lincoln Philip interviews he intimated as such.

But you know it always have a flip side to the coin.  Community teamship still don't guarantee better wages for footballers.  What will determine that is a couple things including...
The overall success of the relevant leagues and the teams invovled.
The sponsorship and marketing of the league.
A change in the mindset of the population reagarding professional football.
A change in the mindset of the avg footballer regarding professional football and its demands.

The majority of the caribbean populace also still have not totally embraced the idea of locally run professional football leagues.  Our population still does not recognise the local footballer as a professional just as a doctor, lawyer, nurse or teacher.  The government and the TTFF has the responsibility to do something about that.  In T&T football is still regarded as a game/sweat and treated as such.  You feel you could go to the bank and tell them yuh playing for a football team and yuh want a loan to build a house ?  They will tell you..no sir...you must have a real job to get a loan here.

The players themselves is professional now, but they liming more than me and you before and after games, playing in all kinda fete match in de area, breeding gyul left right and center and cyah mind dey chirren.  But then some of dem really cyah help themselves because that is all dey know from small, since most of dem coming from depressed areas and have limited education.  Not making excuse for dem, just saying is another hurdle to cross.

One thing for sure is that community football will bring back the crowds to the games...and is a start.
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Offline trinbago

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2006, 10:32:21 AM »
One word:

MARKETING
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TrinInfinite

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2006, 10:42:15 AM »
One word:

MARKETING

i have better marketing ideas than de pfl bosses, coz if dey was so hot, de league would b better now >:(

Offline pardners

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2006, 11:31:51 AM »
One word:

MARKETING

i have better marketing ideas than de pfl bosses, coz if dey was so hot, de league would b better now >:(

100% in agreement

I am sure a lot of allyuh fellas probably went to NBA games already.  My first experience was to see 76ers play Denver Nuggets in Philly some years ago.  The experience was mind blowing to say the least.

A couple thoughts came to mind as I compared that experience to attending ANY sporting activity in T&T.  The things that stood out the most of all though was that everybody from Philly was behind dey team whether dey playing shit or not.  The next thing is that from about 15000 people in the arena, about 75% of the people was there for the atmosphere, 15% was totally interested in the game and the next 10% was about business or wuk.  Them frigging Americans could market something boy...Jeezan ages !  Dem could sell a fridge to an Eskimo for double the price and make him feel he get a real deal.  What we doh see on TV when dey go to commercials, is a set of off and on the court activities for the crowd to participate in.  Parents bringing dey 2 or 3 yr old children, because they could go home with a prize.  I myself win a trip to Disney World that night jes for going to the game. 

Dey probably had about 50 sponsors who might sponsor a couple seconds of the game...first timout, second timout and so on until the game done.  I sure sponsors does be in a waiting line to get on board.  MARKETING BOY !!!
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TrinInfinite

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2006, 11:43:34 AM »
One word:

MARKETING

i have better marketing ideas than de pfl bosses, coz if dey was so hot, de league would b better now >:(

100% in agreement

I am sure a lot of allyuh fellas probably went to NBA games already. My first experience was to see 76ers play Denver Nuggets in Philly some years ago. The experience was mind blowing to say the least.

A couple thoughts came to mind as I compared that experience to attending ANY sporting activity in T&T. The things that stood out the most of all though was that everybody from Philly was behind dey team whether dey playing shit or not. The next thing is that from about 15000 people in the arena, about 75% of the people was there for the atmosphere, 15% was totally interested in the game and the next 10% was about business or wuk. Them frigging Americans could market something boy...Jeezan ages ! Dem could sell a fridge to an Eskimo for double the price and make him feel he get a real deal. What we doh see on TV when dey go to commercials, is a set of off and on the court activities for the crowd to participate in. Parents bringing dey 2 or 3 yr old children, because they could go home with a prize. I myself win a trip to Disney World that night jes for going to the game.

Dey probably had about 50 sponsors who might sponsor a couple seconds of the game...first timout, second timout and so on until the game done. I sure sponsors does be in a waiting line to get on board. MARKETING BOY !!!

we need to market we league as a national past time in trinidad and tobago, and ah not talkin about limin and drinkin and winin for carnival as de national past time, ah mean football as one and cricket as de other  :beermug:

Offline Blue

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2006, 11:45:22 AM »
Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football

I cyah believe d post come dis far and noone pull yuh up on yuh spellin  :rotfl:

Offline Pasdah Beatz

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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2006, 11:46:24 AM »
One word:

MARKETING

[size=15t]feed us and we will be fed!!!
We like a soca tune because it is constantly played on radio. We like a show (on regular TV channel 6) because it is shown to us. The smae approach needs to be takes with football. When S.Marshall wants us to sing one of his shitty songs he plays it constantly. My point is this now, market, advertise and develop local footbal. Not only would our league grow but we will be able to put out not recreational football players (B.Rahim 4 example) but professional footballers (K. Jones) [/size]

TrinInfinite

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2006, 11:52:39 AM »
One word:

MARKETING

[size=15t]feed us and we will be fed!!!
We like a soca tune because it is constantly played on radio. We like a show (on regular TV channel 6) because it is shown to us. The smae approach needs to be takes with football. When S.Marshall wants us to sing one of his shitty songs he plays it constantly. My point is this now, market, advertise and develop local footbal. Not only would our league grow but we will be able to put out not recreational football players (B.Rahim 4 example) but professional footballers (K. Jones) [/size]

de football marketers are amateurs and cant handle how big we football will grow 2, dey very limited in their ideas and strategy  >:(

Offline dwn

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2006, 04:48:09 PM »
What Im thinking is how hard is it for the marketers of the PFL to do some research into how the EPL, NBA, NFL or even MLS (which is growing) etc. have gone about marketing and promoting? So they can then try to model the PFL's strategy based on findings. Does anyone know what that takes (other than money)?

Offline kicker

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2006, 04:52:01 PM »
What Im thinking is how hard is it for the marketers of the PFL to do some research into how the EPL, NBA, NFL or even MLS (which is growing) etc. have gone about marketing and promoting? So they can then try to model the PFL's strategy based on findings. Does anyone know what that takes (other than money)?

I can't comment on what kind of effort has been put into such, but the MLS, NFL, NBA, EPL etc....are probably not suitable business models to follow, because of the disparity in size, demographics, available capital etc.....a good model to follow would be something succesful but that is run on a comparable scale to the PFL.........and that is ??
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Offline Jefferz

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2006, 04:54:21 PM »
Adidas sponsoring us now...Impossible is Nothing !!!!

yuh mean nike  :rotfl:


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Offline pioneertrini

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Re: Seperating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2006, 07:21:47 PM »
One word:

MARKETING

i have better marketing ideas than de pfl bosses, coz if dey was so hot, de league would b better now >:(

100% in agreement

I am sure a lot of allyuh fellas probably went to NBA games already. My first experience was to see 76ers play Denver Nuggets in Philly some years ago. The experience was mind blowing to say the least.

A couple thoughts came to mind as I compared that experience to attending ANY sporting activity in T&T. The things that stood out the most of all though was that everybody from Philly was behind dey team whether dey playing shit or not. The next thing is that from about 15000 people in the arena, about 75% of the people was there for the atmosphere, 15% was totally interested in the game and the next 10% was about business or wuk. Them frigging Americans could market something boy...Jeezan ages ! Dem could sell a fridge to an Eskimo for double the price and make him feel he get a real deal. What we doh see on TV when dey go to commercials, is a set of off and on the court activities for the crowd to participate in. Parents bringing dey 2 or 3 yr old children, because they could go home with a prize. I myself win a trip to Disney World that night jes for going to the game.

Dey probably had about 50 sponsors who might sponsor a couple seconds of the game...first timout, second timout and so on until the game done. I sure sponsors does be in a waiting line to get on board. MARKETING BOY !!!

we need to market we league as a national past time in trinidad and tobago, and ah not talkin about limin and drinkin and winin for carnival as de national past time, ah mean football as one and cricket as de other  :beermug:

Yeh TI thats it, we need to make goin to a football match as normal as goin to a fete or the mall. but to do that u have to attract a lot of younger people to the sport and people who wouldnt normally go. we need a league structure 8 teams pro league, 8 super league, 8 teams national league with relegation/promotion etc with each club distinctivly reppin a certain area of trinidad. ya have san juan, arima, make ah tacarigua, Sando, toco and so on a total overhall. obviously leaving the bigger clubs intact. in di stadium need to be like a fete in di stands, rel carib girls and every other company who in dey. also it might sound american but hav a lil half time show, not no shit i mean like ah big act or dancers. tv will play a massive part. over here in england theres a show called match of the day. they show highlights of all the prem matches every sat night from di time 1030 reach every 1 gone home for an hours or so to watch it and come bak out its almost religious. dats the kinda ting u need. marketing is the most important part, because football is the worlds no1 sport for a reason, once u attract people to it most will stay with it. theres 2 ways to make it work and that to start small and build gradually and maybe we can have an ok league in 10-15 years or to be prepared to loose money for a couple season and help it along. it all comes down to the culture, trinidad isnt football crazy yet but they will be in june and right after is wen things will have to happen, but the people in charge will leave it for years and by then no 1 cares about football again.

Offline Auburn Trini

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2006, 08:06:28 PM »

Quote
Also the quality of the entertainment...i.e the football match must be of value to the individual.

Value is measured on three levels functional,emtional, self worth.......functional being what use/enjoyment am I getting from this, emotional.......mentally how does this satify me and self worth......how does this make me feel and look in the eyes of others.

Touches well said man..

TI the regional idea is good.... I see it more as a marketing strategy though....

Like here at Auburn University....the University Football (American) Team alone could fund our world cup campaign from ticket sales (105 000 capacity)  from just 2 games.... against arch rivals University of Alabama and University of Georgia... why people support it so much??? the team offers a sense of regional identity.... an this state produces alot of good players (american football ofcourse)

When I was in Barcelona... I fed up hearin the Catalan media using the team as a symbol of Catalan spirit.... it workin though
Even smaller Espanyol feeds off of their spirit

I feel that T&T alone is not enough... The Caribbean region as a whole should be considered...
Try to encourage football in the Caribbean region would benefit us... use nationalism...
Even if it start wit de big teams in the PFL in ah Caribbean league.... People would be more interested in going to those games.
The more interest and competition between the islands could benefit us all...

We get people to the games.. more money and spirit to local football.... hence more incentive for players...
And I feel the community would return the favour (sponsors would be more eager) ....

Unless you are a local player playing to get a big break to Europe the PFL doesn't offer much in terms of spirit and financial reward right now....not enough incentive

Programs would only be effective if incentive is there...

Anyways that is my crazy idea....it is possible but would take time to develop

 

 
 

Offline Trini Madness

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2006, 08:52:16 PM »
first 5,000 fans get a bottle of puncheon and a free pass to any fete happening in de month........watch yuh go see seats fill up  ;D
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Offline SOBRIQUET

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2006, 12:09:38 AM »
first 5,000 fans get a bottle of puncheon and a free pass to any fete happening in de month........watch yuh go see seats fill up  ;D

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Offline Auburn Trini

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2006, 05:31:05 AM »
first 5,000 fans get a bottle of puncheon and a free pass to any fete happening in de month........watch yuh go see seats fill up  ;D

 :rotfl: :rotfl:
We could change the PFL to PFFL ...Professional Fetematch football league..

Offline pardners

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2006, 05:46:51 AM »
Real good points and ideas flowing.  TI yuh capturing any of this to make recommendations to Skeene and dem fellas in the PFL.

Some things they could do to attract sponsors is by not asking for a pong and a crong to start with.
We have this way we does ask two sponsors to sponsor an event costing them $20000 each, when we could ask 20 sponsors for $2000 each.  Allow sponsors access to set up booths or kiosks at the venue to exhibit/sell their products.  Give them free tickets...when people come in for free that does bring more crowd...yuh know trini...crowd like to go where it have crowd...they does feel something good going on there and dey missing out.

Charge $5/person and increase that fee with bigger games and as seasons progress.  I doh mind paying $5 to see a shit game....but $20 go hurt mih.

And of course as allyuh mention free giveaways is always a good crowd puller, alpng with good entertainment.

Was it the Americans who had approached FIFA to have timeouts during the game, to maximise advertisement slots.  And I think was the Chinese or Koreans ask for longer half time periods (20 mins)so that they could sell more beers.  Yuh see where them people thinking.  So we have to get innovative with we sports.
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Offline Ponnoxx

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2006, 06:13:13 AM »
first 5,000 fans get a bottle of puncheon and a free pass to any fete happening in de month........watch yuh go see seats fill up ;D
Trini madness..I think about this same thing...And is true...Yuh talk rel sense

Offline dombasil

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 06:57:59 AM »
Some good points. But after getting the people to come to the games there needs to be a good product on the field. Some good, exciting quality football. Because if the people come out and the only good thing happening is a good time in the stands they will decide to just go somewhere else to party. So the quality of the football must improve as well.

Offline oconnorg

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2006, 07:58:42 AM »
PFL is now T&T Pro League...

TI, Touches, very good points.

Perhaps teams should be " forced" to have a certain percentage of their teams originating from their base location...

To say though that the Pro League teams should be totally local to their area wont work tho.. Remember we got men from other islands playing in our league as well eh..

Marketing and sponsorship definitely needs to be persued vigerously for our league.. it wil happen.. WE will succeed..

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Offline Auburn Trini

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Re: Separating Recreational Football from Professional Football
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2006, 10:33:21 AM »
Some good points. But after getting the people to come to the games there needs to be a good product on the field. Some good, exciting quality football. Because if the people come out and the only good thing happening is a good time in the stands they will decide to just go somewhere else to party. So the quality of the football must improve as well.

True... quality of football would increase once there is more competitiveness...an this is the spark that vital for a good league
to keep people coming and to make players want to play....

Yuh could have all the fuel coming in the engine but if there is no spark.... we ent goin no where (SI engine ofcourse)

Don't get me wrong... development have to be at the same time.. but we missin that extra ingredient...
dat is why we need marketing to get people to identify wit the teams... I feel at this point that is the first order of business otherwise the league would remain stagnant and functioning mainly to exhibit players trying to get a contract elsewhere...

 

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