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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1710 on: March 29, 2014, 07:35:43 AM »
Tiresais, you've invested a response addressed to some content that you have perceived or imagined. I'll take that up in another post.

Regardless of your condensation of the analysis of Williams' work, I find/found it laughable/lamentable that you have/had not read Williams, a seminal work ... Hence, a partial reason for my reaction above.

In scholarship the reading of foundational material is fundamental. This has nothing to do with the critical assertions of others ... it's a free-standing fact ... and presumably, reading the material on your own should position you to formulate/reformulate your own thoughts. 

Striking a selectively contemptuous tone under such circumstances is deserving of the pushback you have received. I used the word "dismissive" above with that in mind ... not directed singularly to the actual scholarship critique (of which I have long been aware!)

This is a Trinbago forum ... you should be mindful of the audience, rather than presupposing that responses are rooted exclusively in scholarly contention.

Pull yuh socks up and tighten yuh belt! 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 07:37:47 AM by asylumseeker »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1711 on: March 29, 2014, 01:14:19 PM »
Tiresais, you've invested a response addressed to some content that you have perceived or imagined. I'll take that up in another post.

Regardless of your condensation of the analysis of Williams' work, I find/found it laughable/lamentable that you have/had not read Williams, a seminal work ... Hence, a partial reason for my reaction above.

In scholarship the reading of foundational material is fundamental. This has nothing to do with the critical assertions of others ... it's a free-standing fact ... and presumably, reading the material on your own should position you to formulate/reformulate your own thoughts. 

Striking a selectively contemptuous tone under such circumstances is deserving of the pushback you have received. I used the word "dismissive" above with that in mind ... not directed singularly to the actual scholarship critique (of which I have long been aware!)

This is a Trinbago forum ... you should be mindful of the audience, rather than presupposing that responses are rooted exclusively in scholarly contention.

Pull yuh socks up and tighten yuh belt!

You might consider Williams a seminal work, but I don't - I don't tailor the facts to suit my audience either - I'm not going to patronise people on the forum by fawning over Williams without having read him. Whilst holding judgement on his work (beyond stating that I don't consider it a seminal work), the points the forum and the review have raised give me a rough idea of the theories proposed, and I have given a response on the issue of contention (whether slavery/colonialism was essential or a powerful accelerator to Britain's rise). Whether any paper is seminal is of course a subjective thing (as you pointed out, if it forms the foundation of other theories then whether it is outdated or not wouldn't disqualify it, merely make it less urgent), but the debate on the Economics of slavery and the rise of Great Britain has moved very far since the 1940s, which I have tried to point out numerous times. I will read Williams, but I don't consider it a priority over my current, contemporary research interests (that focus on the Caribbean-Chinese trade relations and development potential from that).

Scholarship doesn't require foundational readings in the manner you are suggesting - secondary sources such as textbooks, or papers that build on the theory whilst explaining the original one could and usually do suffice for building on that knowledge. Otherwise, we'd need to re-read Adam Smith every time we tried to write a paper. Until I read Williams' work I cant say for sure what I think about his work in particular, but that doesn't mean I can't have a perspective on the fundamental issues at play, and doesn't mean I can't recognise the general arguments when people assert things about his work. You don't need to have read Marx to know it forms an important foundation of the critiques of Capitalism, and you may not even need to read Marx's work to talk about Primitive Accumulation of Capital, as you might have read and understood David Harvey's significant contributions to the area, giving you an understanding of Marx's work.



Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1712 on: March 29, 2014, 01:26:57 PM »
To go back on topic....

Same-sex marriage now legal as first couples wed
BBC News


The first same-sex weddings have taken place after gay marriage became legal in England and Wales at midnight.


Politicians from the main parties have hailed the change in the law.

David Cameron said the move sent a message that people were now equal "whether gay or straight", but some religious groups remain opposed.

Scotland passed a similar law in February; the first same-sex marriages are expected there in October. Northern Ireland has no plans to follow suit.

In an article for the Pink News website, the prime minister wrote: "This weekend is an important moment for our country.

"It says we are a country that will continue to honour its proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth."

The law change would encourage young people unsure of their sexuality, he added.

Later on Saturday morning, Mr Cameron tweeted: "Congratulations to the gay couples who have already been married - and my best wishes to those about to be on this historic day."

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said "Britain will be a different place" as a result.

He congratulated his party for being part of the reform, saying: "If our change to the law means a single young man or young woman who wants to come out, but who is scared of what the world will say, now feels safer, stronger, taller - well, for me, getting into coalition government will have been worth it just for that."

Labour leader Ed Miliband congratulated those planning to tie the knot.

"This is an incredibly happy time for so many gay couples and lesbian couples who will be getting married, but it's an incredibly proud time for our country as well, recognising equal marriage in law," he said.

However, he warned that the "battle for true equality" was not yet won.

Read More

Offline Toppa

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1713 on: March 29, 2014, 02:53:51 PM »
How is that back on topic? I thought the thread was about Uganda.

And whether a piece of work is seminal is not at all subjective. You cannot have a serious discussion on the economics of slavery without referencing Williams's work. His work was and is widely acclaimed but Britain refused to make it available in Britain until a couple decades later. I wonder why...
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1714 on: March 29, 2014, 03:25:53 PM »
Asylum,  you may be on to something.


:salute:

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1715 on: March 29, 2014, 04:44:10 PM »
How is that back on topic? I thought the thread was about Uganda.

And whether a piece of work is seminal is not at all subjective. You cannot have a serious discussion on the economics of slavery without referencing Williams's work. His work was and is widely acclaimed but Britain refused to make it available in Britain until a couple decades later. I wonder why...

Yes, you can have a serious discussion about it without referencing Williams work - I have already done so in this topic. Why do you think his work from 1944 is still vital in the discussion? His work not being available is probably a combination of racism and the still-existent British Empire considering itself somehow a "civilising" influence on the world. As I've mentioned earlier, the British Empire is still seen as something that did good by the British public due to the pro-colonial education and mindset of the elites of this country. That's not to say there isn't considerable dissidence with this concept, especially from the Left in this country, but the feelings were much more intense in the 1950s, and this was the same time in which MI6 were disrupting independence movements in the colonies, so it's sadly no great surprise that his work wouldn't be published.

This is irrelevant to whether the arguments have merit of course. I've stated my interpretation on the current evidence - Slavery and colonialism were essential to Britain's rise indirectly, through empowering and enriching those who had an incentive to protect private property and enterprise in the economy, undermining the monarchy and supporting Parliament. North and Weingast (1989) were some of the first to make this point, which has been built upon by a number of authors since (North especially built his theories into New Institutionalism, of which I am a subscriber, that talked about the importance of socio-cultural and political "institutions" (the norms by which we live and order society) in the development of nations). The evidence for direct impact is not good - the profits of slavery and the empire were simply too small compared to our GDP. Maintaining an empire is incredibly costly, one of the reasons Adam Smith argued against it, and it's likely that the burden of maintaining the world's largest and most powerful navy on one of the world's not-so-impressively-sized islands undermined the financial benefits to teh state. O'Brien's 1982 paper on the contribution of the "periphery" to growth notes that the profits of colonialism and slavery are often exaggerated. Commerce between Europe and the Rest of the World was relatively small between 1450 and 1750, with the vast majority of trade and financial flows between European nations. He found that it wasn't a "uniquely profitable field of enterprise" - even by 1790 only 4% of Europe's GDP was exported ot the Rest of the world, with imports on a similar scale. Even if we assume a very large 50% profit margin (much higher than likely) and 50% reinvestment rate (again ludicrously high) we still end up at 1% of GNP, which is less than 10% of the gross investment of the time. Some have even argued that the colonies were a net drain (something I strongly disagree with) - Thomas (1968) compared the social rate of return to the bond rates at the time and found the return was less for colonies (2%) than the bond rate (3.5%), which led him to conclude that Britain would have been better off without colonies. Coelho (1973) specifically looked at the West Indies, and found that Britain paid a price over the world average for its sugar imports from the Caribbean.

Moreover, if Slavery was essential to Industrialisation then Portugal should have industrialised years before the UK - 10% of the population of Lisbon were slaves and they were involved in slave trading from at least 1445 (due to proximity to the Islamic traders of NW Africa). They received papal legitimacy for this in 1455 with Romanus Pontifex, and managed to ship 4.5 million of the 9.4 million slaves between 1500 and 1870 (depending on which figures for African Slave trading numbers you take). They nicked the plantation model from Cyprus and Crete (Venetian practice), which later disseminated to the other European colonial powers.

On Great Britain, Crafts and Harley (1985) successfully argued that too much weight was being given on the cotton industry, which whilst being the fastest growing was not representative of the broader economy. This led to much slower growth rates - 0.52% per capita per year between 1801-1831. Basically the evidence pointed to a much later benefit to the British Economy - after 1840 - than Williams would have been aware of.

To summarise my personal position - both the biggest benefits and the most devastating costs of slavery and colonialism were found in the way it shaped societies on both sides. Rent-seeking and exploitation were encouraged, leading to systems of governance predicated on corruption in the colonies, simply existing to the aggrandisement of a select elite of British society. In Britain, this elite were the reason a constitutional monarchy was instituted, limited the power of the executive and affording (as a by-product) citizens of the United Kingdom (after it formed in 1776) freedoms unavailable to those on Continental Europe. Britain's huge navy kept safe trade routes around Europe and parts of the colonial empire, facilitating long-distance trade that would again benefit those who would be essential in the Industrial Revolution. Simultaneously, Black African slaves were ground into dust to service the needs of this grotesque masquerade, predicated on a new (or old) system orientated around the accumulation of capital, in order to improve your wealth free from the risk of expropriation by the state (which for the non-noble was a major concern before). In India, Britain inserted itself at the top of the caste system, making use of an already exploitative system for its own benefit, whilst moving labour around through indenture servants as if they were cattle or capital. The whelping pups of the noble and merchant elite went to India to fatten their wallets at the expense of the local populations, and took their ill-gotten gains back to Britain where they financed the major advancements of our time.

Hopefully, that clears up any misunderstandings, assuming people read my damn posts

Offline ribbit

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1716 on: March 29, 2014, 05:07:54 PM »
lawd, ah next dissertation. is post like this make me glad for dutty and sam.

Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1717 on: March 29, 2014, 05:25:05 PM »
"It says we are a country that will continue to honour its proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth."

I'm confused...This is England we talking about? Proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth? They must be out of their f**king mind to make a statement like this. England? f**king England?

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1718 on: March 29, 2014, 06:00:57 PM »
"It says we are a country that will continue to honour its proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth."

I'm confused...This is England we talking about? Proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth? They must be out of their f**king mind to make a statement like this. England? f**king England?
Tiresais sounds like a white English man who worships the Queen and looks down on Black and Caribbean people.
Let's hope I am right because if he is one of us then that's even more disappointing as it means that he has been thoroughly brainwashed.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:43:51 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1719 on: March 29, 2014, 06:28:12 PM »
"It says we are a country that will continue to honour its proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth."

I'm confused...This is England we talking about? Proud traditions of respect, tolerance and equal worth? They must be out of their f**king mind to make a statement like this. England? f**king England?
Tiresais sounds like a white English man who worships the Queen and looks down on Black and Caribbean people.
Let's how I am right because if he is one of us then that's even more disappointing as it means that he has been thoroughly brainwashed.

READ MY POSTS you ignorant moron. 1) I'm a republican in the sense that I wish to abolish the monarchy. 2) READ. MY. POSTS. 3) READ MY DAMN POSTS

Your shocking inability to simply read a piece of text is incredibly frustrating. What is it with people responding to my posts here - Do you just skip my posts and make up your own bacchanal?

Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1720 on: March 29, 2014, 06:30:11 PM »
England abandon the monarchy? Never

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1721 on: March 29, 2014, 06:39:20 PM »
I have been reading the recent exchanges between Tiresais and Asylum/Toppa. I am not schooled in the subject matter as these posters appear to be, notwithstanding their respective criticisms of each other’s knowledge and understanding of the issue. The “contempt” put forth by Tiresais is no more or less than the “contempt” put forth by his detractors - some may argue even less.

Tiresais, your problem is that what you have argued is unpopular and an affront to some as it attacks the very nature of what they hold near and dear to their hearts. When this occurs, a natural reaction is to reject your argument while ignoring the evidence that supports your position. But if I am to draw a conclusion, I would have to side with you as I remained unconvinced by the counter-arguments.

Asylum and Toppa, I was hoping that you would have delivered compelling arguments; instead you both chose to respond with comments that did carry any evidence-based weight that furthered your cause. In fact, Asylum’s comment that “This is a Trinbago forum ... you should be mindful of the audience, rather than presupposing that responses are rooted exclusively in scholarly contention” seems to suggest that scholarly arguments that critique a popular theory/hypothesis/belief should be tempered to avoid “pushback” and hurting the sensibilities or feelings of its members.

The original debate about skin colour and slavery seems to have devolved into whether Tiresais should be allowed to argue his position without challenging the work by Dr. Williams. The very essence of scholarly research is to acquire knowledge and if that means challenging well established works, then so be it. And in many cases, it may not be necessary to personally review foundational material if other scholars have already done so. While ideal, it simply may not be required.

With respect to slavery, the propensity to subjugate other races is more likely related to who wielded the bigger stick at the time of conflict. This propensity has nothing to do with skin colour and I would be surprised if that is the case. What the Europeans did vis-à-vis Africa and other countries they colonized was heinous and just plain wrong but likely no different than what other peoples, with superior firepower, would have done at that juncture in humanity’s history. Given the inherent violence in human nature, I find it difficult to accept that any society united by race, culture or geography would have behaved any differently if their military might was superior to that of the Europeans; a common characteristic of human behaviour is that we are wont to kill each other – just take a look around at the world today – mind you, we are getting better.

Asylum, Toppa, make your case; instead of arguing that Tiresais arguments are not worthy of debate, prove him wrong (i.e., stop arguing semantics, or that he is wrong because he is wrong (or brainwashed as per Socapro) - that type of argument is for the school yard). As it stands, his arguments, to us unwashed, seems to carry a hell of a lot more weight than what you and others have collectively presented.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:41:42 PM by pecan »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1722 on: March 29, 2014, 07:10:50 PM »


You might consider Williams a seminal work, but I don't - I don't tailor the facts to suit my audience either - I'm not going to patronise people on the forum by fawning over Williams without having read him. Whilst holding judgement on his work (beyond stating that I don't consider it a seminal work).

You should have just posted this bolded statement and remain silent on the rest.

If you haven't read him then how can you have an opinion as to whether the book IS or ISN'T seminal?  The logical contradiction aside, your subjective appreciation of the magnitude of the work is immaterial in light of the objective evidence to the contrary.  The book was published in 1944 and was the first time in the 100 years since Abolition that anyone had challenged the prevailing notion that a wave of moral campaigning was the the genesis for Abolition and later Emancipation.  This was no specious claim either.  This book was a more fleshed out version of his dissertation which he successfully defended at Oxford in 1938.  To state, let alone try to argue that the work was NOT seminal is a fool's errand.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1723 on: March 29, 2014, 07:18:23 PM »
How is that back on topic? I thought the thread was about Uganda.

And whether a piece of work is seminal is not at all subjective. You cannot have a serious discussion on the economics of slavery without referencing Williams's work. His work was and is widely acclaimed but Britain refused to make it available in Britain until a couple decades later. I wonder why...

His dissertation was rejected by six different publishers in the UK... even in the US he couldn't find any takers.  It wasn't until years later that UNC Press agreed to publish it, albeit in the more nuanced version which became Capitalism and Slavery

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1724 on: March 29, 2014, 07:23:13 PM »

Yes, you can have a serious discussion about it without referencing Williams work - I have already done so in this topic.

Correction... you have attempted to do so.  Especially given the controversy generated by Williams' work and the efforts to discredit it since, any derivative work that you read which presume to present his thesis is at best a distillation of his ideas, if not an outright bastardization of the same.  We can trust secondary sources on Wealth of Nations because there was no similar controversy accompanying that book.  No matter the forum, if you want to be taken seriously on a subject or author, it's hardly the smartest thing that you do to suggest that an examination of the primary source is surplus.  That's like debating the Bible by relying on criticisms and expositions of the same.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1725 on: March 29, 2014, 07:29:56 PM »

Moreover, if Slavery was essential to Industrialisation then Portugal should have industrialised years before the UK - 10% of the population of Lisbon were slaves and they were involved in slave trading from at least 1445 (due to proximity to the Islamic traders of NW Africa). They received papal legitimacy for this in 1455 with Romanus Pontifex, and managed to ship 4.5 million of the 9.4 million slaves between 1500 and 1870 (depending on which figures for African Slave trading numbers you take). They nicked the plantation model from Cyprus and Crete (Venetian practice), which later disseminated to the other European colonial powers.

I just had to come back to your post to address this... I'm puzzled that someone who claims advanced knowledge, if not learning, in this field, would make such a palpably broad and inaccurate statement.  This assumes that all else were equal in Portugal and Britain.  Was it not you who argued earlier that Britain had the advantage of coal and iron to help spur the industrial growth of the nation?  Cheap slave labor was but one of the factors (if not the key factor) spurring Britain's industrial growth.  Remove that cheap slave labor and there would be no Industrial Revolution, Williams argues.  That doesn't mean that cheap slave labor is ALL that you need. Very simplistic analysis on your part.

Offline Socapro

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Re: Communications director of World Congress of Families on the Gay Agenda!
« Reply #1726 on: March 29, 2014, 07:38:00 PM »
Very good speech by Farrakhan on President Obama's endorsing Gay marriage that is hard to dissect.

Farrakhan responds to President Obama endorsing Gay marriage
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/39dW48MjBMY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/39dW48MjBMY</a>

Btw, today it became legal in the UK for Gays to get married but even when we go by the Oxford Dictionary definition of marriage it says: the formal union of a man and a woman by which they become husband and wife.

In my humble opinion to allow gays to get married makes a mockery of the original meaning and purpose of marriage. Apart from the mockery of marriage it can now be seriously argued that Gays officially have more rights than heterosexuals here in the UK because they can get married as well as join in civil unions so I don't want to hear any gays complaining about victimization any longer as that is now a red-herring argument.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 07:58:16 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1727 on: March 30, 2014, 01:06:03 AM »
pecan, I will have more to say but let me assure you the Trinbago reference had nothing to do with an emotive response. Prior to immersing ourselves in the discussion, I made the "strap on your seatbelt" comment in objective anticipation of where Tiresais was heading.

I have no problem with uncomfortable analysis ... however when one's bias is radicated and expressed with veiled machinations, I'm on alert. He keeps saying read his damn posts ... check. Check.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Communications director of World Congress of Families on the Gay Agenda!
« Reply #1728 on: March 30, 2014, 04:06:51 AM »
Very good speech by Farrakhan on President Obama's endorsing Gay marriage that is hard to dissect.

Btw, today it became legal in the UK for Gays to get married but even when we go by the Oxford Dictionary definition of marriage it says: the formal union of a man and a woman by which they become husband and wife.

In my humble opinion to allow gays to get married makes a mockery of the original meaning and purpose of marriage. Apart from the mockery of marriage it can now be seriously argued that Gays officially have more rights than heterosexuals here in the UK because they can get married as well as join in civil unions so I don't want to hear any gays complaining about victimization any longer as that is now a red-herring argument.

Different cultures can't even agree on the number of people involved in the marriage (single wife? Multiple wives? Sex slaves included?). Moreover, this is the fallacy of age - simply because it's always been so doesn't make it right - slavery was acceptable since ancient time, yet that doesn't make it right. If you had read the next line you'd note that the dictionary allows for a union between the same sex. Marriage is a societal and cultural construct - no single actor, be them religion, state or group, has a monopoly on the definition of marriage.

On the rights issue - are you saying that all black discrimination ended with the end of segregation? Your argument simply doesn't hold up - victimisation and discrimination persist on race, religion, gender and sexuality despite legal safeguards.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1729 on: March 30, 2014, 04:14:56 AM »


You might consider Williams a seminal work, but I don't - I don't tailor the facts to suit my audience either - I'm not going to patronise people on the forum by fawning over Williams without having read him. Whilst holding judgement on his work (beyond stating that I don't consider it a seminal work).

You should have just posted this bolded statement and remain silent on the rest.

If you haven't read him then how can you have an opinion as to whether the book IS or ISN'T seminal?  The logical contradiction aside, your subjective appreciation of the magnitude of the work is immaterial in light of the objective evidence to the contrary.  The book was published in 1944 and was the first time in the 100 years since Abolition that anyone had challenged the prevailing notion that a wave of moral campaigning was the the genesis for Abolition and later Emancipation.  This was no specious claim either.  This book was a more fleshed out version of his dissertation which he successfully defended at Oxford in 1938.  To state, let alone try to argue that the work was NOT seminal is a fool's errand.

There are thousands (literally) of textbooks and papers on the slavery era, but you can know that some are seminal and others are not without reading it. My judgement is simply in relation to the questions at play - was slavery essential to Britain's rise. I can't judge whether it was seminal for anything outside that. I'm not surprised that a Trinbago forum would consider it seminal, simply because we like to push forward our own heroes and representatives, and sometimes inflate their importance. I'm just going to leave this point and read the book I think, this is purely subjective at this point.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1730 on: March 30, 2014, 04:22:18 AM »

Yes, you can have a serious discussion about it without referencing Williams work - I have already done so in this topic.

Correction... you have attempted to do so.  Especially given the controversy generated by Williams' work and the efforts to discredit it since, any derivative work that you read which presume to present his thesis is at best a distillation of his ideas, if not an outright bastardization of the same.  We can trust secondary sources on Wealth of Nations because there was no similar controversy accompanying that book.  No matter the forum, if you want to be taken seriously on a subject or author, it's hardly the smartest thing that you do to suggest that an examination of the primary source is surplus.  That's like debating the Bible by relying on criticisms and expositions of the same.

You think the Wealth of Nations wasn't contentious? He faced criticism from contemporary Mercantile factions and those who followed, such as Hamilton and List, who both argued that free trade had to be curtailed in order to develop America and Germany respectively. Moreover, the interpretation of his work in relation to the social and moral norms of the time was another point of contention - this is the same man who wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments after all. No major piece of work is uncontentious - if it wasn't it wouldn't be worth writing.

None of that means that you can't have a base understanding from derivative works - you'll need to consult the original to make up your own mind ultimately, but to say you can only learn his work by his own book is simplistic. I didn't say it was surplus, I said it was low priority - *sigh* read my posts... I have responded on the major controversies that his book is said to cover, you can take these and respond with specific points from William's book if you like?

Whilst people jump on my back about this - have you all read his book? I've found a free version here; https://archive.org/details/capitalismandsla033027mbp

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1731 on: March 30, 2014, 04:31:04 AM »

Moreover, if Slavery was essential to Industrialisation then Portugal should have industrialised years before the UK - 10% of the population of Lisbon were slaves and they were involved in slave trading from at least 1445 (due to proximity to the Islamic traders of NW Africa). They received papal legitimacy for this in 1455 with Romanus Pontifex, and managed to ship 4.5 million of the 9.4 million slaves between 1500 and 1870 (depending on which figures for African Slave trading numbers you take). They nicked the plantation model from Cyprus and Crete (Venetian practice), which later disseminated to the other European colonial powers.

I just had to come back to your post to address this... I'm puzzled that someone who claims advanced knowledge, if not learning, in this field, would make such a palpably broad and inaccurate statement.  This assumes that all else were equal in Portugal and Britain.  Was it not you who argued earlier that Britain had the advantage of coal and iron to help spur the industrial growth of the nation?  Cheap slave labor was but one of the factors (if not the key factor) spurring Britain's industrial growth.  Remove that cheap slave labor and there would be no Industrial Revolution, Williams argues.  That doesn't mean that cheap slave labor is ALL that you need. Very simplistic analysis on your part.

Again, if you had read my posts more carefully.... I pointed out that this is evidence against the essentialness of slavery. Spain also had a fair amount of mineral wealth (including coal) during this period, so simply shift the argument to there - the point still stands. Those nations with the most intensive slave trading are not the major winners. Moreover, of those countries developing during the "Second Industrial Revolution", Germany had barely any slave trading before their Industrial Revolution, Japan similarly.

Cheap slave labour was to the benefit of the plantation owners - as I've pointed out there's a misconception on capitalism - it never tries to benefit the state, simply individuals with capital. Plantation owners and the mercantile class worked human beings to death as if they were cattle, whilst over charging Britain for the imports through Parliamentary acts limiting trade on key good to the colonies, guaranteeing them a better price than the world average for the time. Cheap labour was essential indirectly - by enriching this class whom could grow powerful enough to place constraints on the monarchy. We agree on the essential nature of colonialism, but for different reasons.

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1732 on: March 30, 2014, 05:55:36 AM »
Tiresais, to what extent did slavery benefit the USA? So far the discussions have focused on eastern hemisphere
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1733 on: March 30, 2014, 06:04:20 AM »
Asylum, can you point me to examples of his "radicated bias and veiled bias"? I don't see it. But then again,  I have been accused of being naive when it comes to racism.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:41:55 AM by pecan »
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1734 on: March 30, 2014, 07:41:24 AM »
Asylum, can you point me to examples of his "radicated bias and veiled bias"? I don't see it. But then again,  I have been accused of being naive when it comes to racism.

Racism? Who the hell is talking about racism?

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Re: Communications director of World Congress of Families on the Gay Agenda!
« Reply #1735 on: March 30, 2014, 08:24:54 AM »
Very good speech by Farrakhan on President Obama's endorsing Gay marriage that is hard to dissect.

Btw, today it became legal in the UK for Gays to get married but even when we go by the Oxford Dictionary definition of marriage it says: the formal union of a man and a woman by which they become husband and wife.

In my humble opinion to allow gays to get married makes a mockery of the original meaning and purpose of marriage. Apart from the mockery of marriage it can now be seriously argued that Gays officially have more rights than heterosexuals here in the UK because they can get married as well as join in civil unions so I don't want to hear any gays complaining about victimization any longer as that is now a red-herring argument.

Different cultures can't even agree on the number of people involved in the marriage (single wife? Multiple wives? Sex slaves included?). Moreover, this is the fallacy of age - simply because it's always been so doesn't make it right - slavery was acceptable since ancient time, yet that doesn't make it right. If you had read the next line you'd note that the dictionary allows for a union between the same sex. Marriage is a societal and cultural construct - no single actor, be them religion, state or group, has a monopoly on the definition of marriage.

On the rights issue - are you saying that all black discrimination ended with the end of segregation? Your argument simply doesn't hold up - victimisation and discrimination persist on race, religion, gender and sexuality despite legal safeguards.
First the homos high-jacked and changed the meaning of the word Gay and now they are high-jacking and trying to change the meaning of the word marriage.
Last time I checked marriage was an institution defined in the Bible and other holy books that was meant to be between a man and a woman for legally supporting each other, reproducing and building a family but now it is being made a mockery of by the Homos and Lesbis as part of the Gay Agenda.

My argument on the rights issue is that Gays now have MORE rights and choices than heterosexuals in the area of marriage so I no longer want to hear any Gays moaning about victimization and lack of equality in that area.
Next thing on the agenda for the Gay Rights movement will be trying to teach the lie of gay sex and marriage being natural and healthy in ALL schools regardless of the parents opinion on the matter or even the teachers willingness to participate due to their moral or religious principles.

Honestly I am not the religious type but I can definitely see the days of Sodom and Gomorrah as described in the Bible coming back but this time on a much bigger worldwide scale.

I am not a Farrahkhan fan but what he says in that video above (in Reply #35) about marriage and the American constitution being based on principals laid out in the Bible is hard to dismiss.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:49:33 PM by Socapro »
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Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1736 on: March 30, 2014, 11:52:14 AM »
Tiresais, to what extent did slavery benefit the USA? So far the discussions have focused on eastern hemisphere

Sadly not knowledgeable in American economic history beyond the basics. Had an impact for sure but again it won't be clear cut - in some ways making agriculture profitable has a nullifying effect on efforts to industrialise, as investment usually flows to those sectors that give the highest returns. If agriculture is being uniquely profitable due to slavery then private investment goes into that and not into the capital required for manufacturing. On the other hand, America saw mass-migration during the 1800s, giving a large labour pool for capitalists on the East Coast to use, regardless of slavery. The cotton would still have been needed and post-indepedence (if they would end up declaring it without the slavery profits) it's unlikely they could have tapped into Indian or West Indian cotton. Then again there were ample alternative industrialisation paths open to the US, with ample coal and iron supplies metallurgy was one route, as would have been chemicals similar to Germany. Of course, there was always oil, sweet sweet oil.


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Re: Communications director of World Congress of Families on the Gay Agenda!
« Reply #1737 on: March 30, 2014, 12:15:25 PM »
Socapro you maintain positions without justification or rationality - these aren't beliefs, these are delusions worthy of your average religious fundamentalist.

First the homos high-jacked and changed the meaning of the world Gay and now they are high-jacking and trying to change the meaning of the world marriage.

Homosexuals didn't "hijack" the word, if that is indeed possible - again if you just bothered to check your facts instead of spitting vitriol for once. You simply never check your own facts do you? Check wikipedia for a basic primer - it was being used for purposes other than happy for centuries.

Last time I checked marriage was an institution defined in the Bible and other holy books that was meant to be between a man and a woman for legally supporting each other, reproducing and building a family but now it is being made a mockery of by the Homos and Lesbis as part of the Gay Agenda.

Wrong again. As I've pointed out numerous times whom marriage incorporates differs greatly between these books. Moreover, 'defining' a word doesn't give ownership, and marriage pre-dates all the major religions in existence, meaning they weren't even the ones who defined it. And thank god for that! Descriptions of marriage in the Old Testament are tantamount to Chattel slavery. Homosexuals want the same rights to their relationship that heterosexuals have - legal recognition. This allows them a much easier and cheaper legal route to determine things like parental rights on children and the estate after death. There's no plot here - just people who love each other and who want the law to reflect that.

My argument on the rights issue is that Gays now have MORE rights and choices than heterosexuals in the area of marriage so I no longer want to hear any Gays moaning about victimization and lack of equality in that area.

Absolute rubbish - where's your justification for this? Again you've not answered my point - did racism end with the end of segregation? You avoid all the points against your prejudice and just make new arguments. Your position is the definition of fundamentalism - total aversion to facts and arguments that don't fit with your world view.

Next thing on the agenda for the Gay Rights movement will be trying to teach the lie of gay sex and marriage being natural and healthy in ALL schools regardless of the parents opinion on the matter or even the teachers willingness to participate due to their moral or religious principles.

Your arguments are exactly the same as those who argued against interracial marriage. As I've pointed out in previous posts - homosexuality is natural, unless you have a different definition of natural that isn't "that which is observed in nature".

Honestly I am not the religious type but I can definitely see the days of Sodom and Gomorrah as described in the Bible coming back but this time on a much bigger worldwide scale.

I find this hard to believe, given all of your posts so far have suggested a faith on your part - you frequently argue from religious scripture and from the ramblings of moronic preachers. Given that the portrayals of Soddom and Gomorrah are clearly not reality (unless you believe people tried to rape angels?), why would you assume this ever happened if you didn't have faith?

I am not a Farrahkhan fan but what he says in that video above (in Reply #35) about marriage and the American constitution being based on principals laid out in the Bible is hard to dismiss.

Except that the Constitution guarantees religious freedom (something clearly against the 10 commandments) and in the Treaty of Tripoli President Joohn Adams states unequivocally that the United States is not a Christian Nation;

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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Re: Communications director of World Congress of Families on the Gay Agenda!
« Reply #1738 on: March 30, 2014, 12:39:38 PM »
@Tireais....Are you a homosexual? This is a serious question

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1739 on: March 30, 2014, 01:33:53 PM »
Tiresais, to what extent did slavery benefit the USA? So far the discussions have focused on eastern hemisphere

Sadly not knowledgeable in American economic history beyond the basics. Had an impact for sure but again it won't be clear cut - in some ways making agriculture profitable has a nullifying effect on efforts to industrialise, as investment usually flows to those sectors that give the highest returns. If agriculture is being uniquely profitable due to slavery then private investment goes into that and not into the capital required for manufacturing. On the other hand, America saw mass-migration during the 1800s, giving a large labour pool for capitalists on the East Coast to use, regardless of slavery. The cotton would still have been needed and post-indepedence (if they would end up declaring it without the slavery profits) it's unlikely they could have tapped into Indian or West Indian cotton. Then again there were ample alternative industrialisation paths open to the US, with ample coal and iron supplies metallurgy was one route, as would have been chemicals similar to Germany. Of course, there was always oil, sweet sweet oil.
Having resources  like iron , coal and oil does not lead to industrialization . Cheap labor  does and what is cheaper labor  than slavery?
When one thinks of slavery they only think about plantations and agriculture and not on the peripheral factors like the financial and insurance industry that facilitated this evil practice ,
The wealth generated by  by these other industries allowed for the exploitation of the natural resources , but it all  began   on the backs of slaves..
 If only the possessions of natural resources led to industrialization then  Africa would have been the richest continent ,
  Europe was basically a backward continent and it only became rich after the discovery of the western hemisphere , this combined with the inherently evil genocidal nature of the white man  who mostly eradicated the the natives in their brutal exploitation of them and when they were done    began their rape of Africa  .
 They brought all the proceeds back to Europe and that is how they became rich and industrialized
 Their evil nature was of such  that after the slaves were  freed that they opened the floodgates to   European immigration in America  especially for skilled tradesman because the whiteman in America could hardly turn a screw ... all the skilled trades were done by slaves and so further depriving the blackman.
 All this talk about economic theories and the path to industrialization is all bullshit ... was done on the exploitation of African slaves and other indigenous peoples like in India . Indonesia as in the case of the dutch 

 

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