Gays Thread.

[kicker]

Kicker you just jumpin my thing an trying to twisting it.  You obviously didn't ready my response to Lefty.  No scene though I does do it to.  Anyways based on friend these are the same that claim that they were born this way.  It was her opinion that they all confessed sexual abuse in their past that triggered certain things.   That was my point to Lefty.  Let the states vote on it.  And let the voice of the people stand and don't criticize me for my vote.  You know how much schools across America imposing Homosexuality on little children and parents ain't even getting to vote?  Stop believing them sound bites.  Stay on God side and keep straight. 

I not jumping on anything.  I read your responses.  I'm also not criticizing your "vote" either, I just asked a question - and you quite frankly still haven't answered it.

Anyway as you say, let the states vote (whatever that means) - that's fine.

[D.H.W]

Well I like to support what God set originally.  I've been on the world long enough to know that people does sometimes just make up stuff innately contrary to God's purpose and God doesn't kill em for it.  Sometimes, people does feel they actually doing good with a good heart but they does be sincerely wrong.   In studying the bible it's important to understand which was given by Description (God described what He wanted) and what was Prescription (leaders made decisions based on what they thought was best.)   As far as I'm concerned God made Adam an Eve and He said "It is good."   You know what good means in that context?   It means perfection, it mean complete.  It means everything needed to care for the earth was in place.  So that's where you have to take up your issue.  The old testament has a lot of old world history and practices in it that simply doesn't apply today.  Many of it were just people doing stuff as they saw it.   Whoever want to challenge God, go ahead.  God ain't sweating, the breath we breathing is His anyway.   Tic Toc for everybody.   God is so gracious that at the end nobody could say that they didn't get enough rope.  God's ways are so above our ways that we can't even begin to quantify His wisdom, mercy and above all His love for mankind.  Look, marriage is an institution enacted by God Himself.  He set the parameters and endorsed it as good.  Now just like that chart Pecan post, men can do whatever they feel they need to do, follow lies, geneticist or demons.  Do whatever you want but anything outside of those parameters does not get the seal from the big man as marriage.  You can call it marriage but it won't be marriage and it won't have the blessing of the Most High.   He's given marriage many blessings.  To lay down with your wife and have her open up for you.   To share a baby and raise a child that look like both of you.  To have a woman on your side to support and strengthen you, believe in you. (A help meet not a man meat)   To struggle through life together sharing dreams, aspirations and failures.   These things are blessings that God only gives to marriage as He set it up.   

Where does God say anything about 'marriage'... or that it's exclusively between man and woman?

Evidence abounds that God homosexual relationships are prohibited in the Bible. That should clue everyone is on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anyway...

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

Evidence abounds that many God homosexual relationships things are prohibited or endorsed in the Bible.  But we don't observe them. The following might be food for thought from a woman's perspective:

Genesis 2:18: NIV
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 

Yep. those women are help, not equals

Leviticus 12:2. NIV
"Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.

Leviticus 12:5, NIV
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Leviticus 15:19 NIV
"'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

maybe we should be quarantining women when dey menstruating or just give birth - they are so unclean!! - and look thing - 2 weeks if the baby is female and then another 66 days to be purified!









So if one insists on using the Bible to define marriage, then I maintain these statements about women should be enforced too.

First time i seeing this. Goes to show people pick and choose from the Bible to suit their needs.

[kicker]

Doh study dem by die hard - it's like data mining.  If yuh mine a large enough amount of data, you will find stuff to support your argument.

Plantation owners and Pro-segregationists used to use the bible to support their beliefs too, when the morality of slavery and apartheid used to be called into question.

[lefty]

First time i seeing this. Goes to show people pick and choose from the Bible to suit their needs.

boy leviticus is\was ah headcase atleast in d end parts read 25-27, it only gets curiouser and curiouser, and d writing of St. Thomas are discredited and hidden because d man dear to say yuh doh need church if yuh have god in your heart.....steups

[Toppa]

Evidence abounds that God homosexual relationships are prohibited in the Bible. That should clue everyone is on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anyway...

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

None of this saying anything.

I read what you said about 'nowhere does it say that same-sex marriage is expressly prohibited' and was genuinely shocked.

So you would look at the abundantly clear prohibitions against homosexual relations, repeated assertions of marriage being a union of a man and woman and still try to argue that one cannot logically conclude that a homosexual marriage would be displeasing to the Creator.

If that is your assertion, then I have nothing else to say to you.

[Toppa]

Well I like to support what God set originally.  I've been on the world long enough to know that people does sometimes just make up stuff innately contrary to God's purpose and God doesn't kill em for it.  Sometimes, people does feel they actually doing good with a good heart but they does be sincerely wrong.   In studying the bible it's important to understand which was given by Description (God described what He wanted) and what was Prescription (leaders made decisions based on what they thought was best.)   As far as I'm concerned God made Adam an Eve and He said "It is good."   You know what good means in that context?   It means perfection, it mean complete.  It means everything needed to care for the earth was in place.  So that's where you have to take up your issue.  The old testament has a lot of old world history and practices in it that simply doesn't apply today.  Many of it were just people doing stuff as they saw it.   Whoever want to challenge God, go ahead.  God ain't sweating, the breath we breathing is His anyway.   Tic Toc for everybody.   God is so gracious that at the end nobody could say that they didn't get enough rope.  God's ways are so above our ways that we can't even begin to quantify His wisdom, mercy and above all His love for mankind.  Look, marriage is an institution enacted by God Himself.  He set the parameters and endorsed it as good.  Now just like that chart Pecan post, men can do whatever they feel they need to do, follow lies, geneticist or demons.  Do whatever you want but anything outside of those parameters does not get the seal from the big man as marriage.  You can call it marriage but it won't be marriage and it won't have the blessing of the Most High.   He's given marriage many blessings.  To lay down with your wife and have her open up for you.   To share a baby and raise a child that look like both of you.  To have a woman on your side to support and strengthen you, believe in you. (A help meet not a man meat)   To struggle through life together sharing dreams, aspirations and failures.   These things are blessings that God only gives to marriage as He set it up.   

Where does God say anything about 'marriage'... or that it's exclusively between man and woman?

Evidence abounds that God homosexual relationships are prohibited in the Bible. That should clue everyone is on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anyway...

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

Evidence abounds that many God homosexual relationships things are prohibited or endorsed in the Bible.  But we don't observe them. The following might be food for thought from a woman's perspective:

Genesis 2:18: NIV
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 

Yep. those women are help, not equals

Leviticus 12:2. NIV
"Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.

Leviticus 12:5, NIV
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Leviticus 15:19 NIV
"'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

maybe we should be quarantining women when dey menstruating or just give birth - they are so unclean!! - and look thing - 2 weeks if the baby is female and then another 66 days to be purified!









So if one insists on using the Bible to define marriage, then I maintain these statements about women should be enforced too.

lol Jesus also described himself as a 'helper' to mankind - is that a dishonourable thing?

Also, your references to the women stuff is neither here nor there.  Homosexuality is not only condemed in the Old Testament but the New as well.

[Toppa]

Doh study dem by die hard - it's like data mining.  If yuh mine a large enough amount of data, you will find stuff to support your argument.

Plantation owners and Pro-segregationists used to use the bible to support their beliefs too, when the morality of slavery and apartheid used to be called into question.

Yes, and it would be clear to anyone who is somewhat literate that the Bible does/did not preach either of those things. The reasons for slavery and the ensuing racism was sociological/economic - not religious so don't even go there.

[Toppa]

Well I like to support what God set originally.  I've been on the world long enough to know that people does sometimes just make up stuff innately contrary to God's purpose and God doesn't kill em for it.  Sometimes, people does feel they actually doing good with a good heart but they does be sincerely wrong.   In studying the bible it's important to understand which was given by Description (God described what He wanted) and what was Prescription (leaders made decisions based on what they thought was best.)   As far as I'm concerned God made Adam an Eve and He said "It is good."   You know what good means in that context?   It means perfection, it mean complete.  It means everything needed to care for the earth was in place.  So that's where you have to take up your issue.  The old testament has a lot of old world history and practices in it that simply doesn't apply today.  Many of it were just people doing stuff as they saw it.   Whoever want to challenge God, go ahead.  God ain't sweating, the breath we breathing is His anyway.   Tic Toc for everybody.   God is so gracious that at the end nobody could say that they didn't get enough rope.  God's ways are so above our ways that we can't even begin to quantify His wisdom, mercy and above all His love for mankind.  Look, marriage is an institution enacted by God Himself.  He set the parameters and endorsed it as good.  Now just like that chart Pecan post, men can do whatever they feel they need to do, follow lies, geneticist or demons.  Do whatever you want but anything outside of those parameters does not get the seal from the big man as marriage.  You can call it marriage but it won't be marriage and it won't have the blessing of the Most High.   He's given marriage many blessings.  To lay down with your wife and have her open up for you.   To share a baby and raise a child that look like both of you.  To have a woman on your side to support and strengthen you, believe in you. (A help meet not a man meat)   To struggle through life together sharing dreams, aspirations and failures.   These things are blessings that God only gives to marriage as He set it up.   

Where does God say anything about 'marriage'... or that it's exclusively between man and woman?

Evidence abounds that God homosexual relationships are prohibited in the Bible. That should clue everyone is on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anyway...

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

Evidence abounds that many God homosexual relationships things are prohibited or endorsed in the Bible.  But we don't observe them. The following might be food for thought from a woman's perspective:

Genesis 2:18: NIV
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 

Yep. those women are help, not equals

Leviticus 12:2. NIV
"Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.

Leviticus 12:5, NIV
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Leviticus 15:19 NIV
"'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

maybe we should be quarantining women when dey menstruating or just give birth - they are so unclean!! - and look thing - 2 weeks if the baby is female and then another 66 days to be purified!









So if one insists on using the Bible to define marriage, then I maintain these statements about women should be enforced too.

First time i seeing this. Goes to show people pick and choose from the Bible to suit their needs.

It is not a matter of people picking and choosing. The Mosaic Law became obsolete once the new covenant was made through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Which is also why it is no longer necessary to observe the sabbath amongst other things. You cannot compare day-to-day life of the jewish people under Mosaic law to the actual commands of the Bible. Bit ridiculous, methinks.

[Preacher]

You being unfair to Paul but since you know his teaching so well. 

Rom.1:24-28
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

To you it seems like God ain't clear enough.   I'll take my chances with the 'Righteous Judge.'  To only One that will judge to living and the dead.  I can guarantee nobody getting off on no technically.  To me it loud and clear. 

I think you need to better acquaint yuhself with Paul before you tell me that I am being 'unfair' to him.  What I state is hardly my own opinion, although I did arrive at it independent of others. 

All them scriptures yuh cite dey... Paul sure is clear enough, if yuh subscribe to the notion that Paul absolutely speaking for God then yeah, 'God' is pretty clear.

You talking about yuh'll take yuh chance with the "righteous judge" as though is you they bulling.  You sinning yuh soul by saying "yeah, let them get married if they want to"?  God holding you responsible for the actions of homosexuals now?  What kinda unfair God is that?  Not the God I serve.

...and yeah, "states" doh vote on individual rights, not sure where you get that from.

I not going an get into no personal insults with you, my point is simple.  Let everybody do want they feel they need to do.  Yuh want to be with a man, then do it.  Anybody who don't believe in God or the bible fine.  Everybody should make up their bed and make themselves comfortable.  In all this talk I've never insulted anyone for their view.  I've simply stated what I believe. I ain't judging nobody or condemning anyone either.  The same Bible I quote states that all men are condemned but for God's grace.  Anyone could reach to heaven with a pure heart and find the answers they need.  Fear God and keep His commands.

[Toppa]

People use this 'don't judge' thing as a defence against everything. Saying what is right and wrong according to the scriptures is not judging.

If you don't subscribe to the bible, fine - but don't try to get into scriptural arguments and when you can't sway others you bawl out 'don't judge'.

Because the Bible also says:

Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

[D.H.W]

First time i seeing this. Goes to show people pick and choose from the Bible to suit their needs.

boy leviticus iswas ah headcase atleast in d end parts read 25-27, it only gets curiouser and curiouser, and d writing of St. Thomas are discredited and hidden because d man dear to say yuh doh need church if yuh have god in your heart.....steups

I have heard about parts of the bible hidden away. The Vatican have text that they don't even allow people outside to see. Makes you wonder.

[Toppa]

Evidence abounds that God homosexual relationships are prohibited in the Bible. That should clue everyone is on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. Anyway...

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

Um what if I don't subscribe to the Bible? or any religion for that matter?

1) I don't recall my response being to you.

2) Other people brought the Bible into this which is what I responded to. If you don't believe in the Bible then I suggest you keep it moving. 

[Sando]

Obama just lost my vote.

I guess everyone really have a price...

[asylumseeker]

Equal rights and justice is the pinnacle? Then gay racists didn't get the memo?

[Bakes]

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

...yeah, opinion Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.

I read what you said about 'nowhere does it say that same-sex marriage is expressly prohibited' and was genuinely shocked.

So you would look at the abundantly clear prohibitions against homosexual relations, repeated assertions of marriage being a union of a man and woman and still try to argue that one cannot logically conclude that a homosexual marriage would be displeasing to the Creator.

If that is your assertion, then I have nothing else to say to you.

You were saying?

[Bakes]

I not going an get into no personal insults with you, my point is simple.  Let everybody do want they feel they need to do.  Yuh want to be with a man, then do it.  Anybody who don't believe in God or the bible fine.  Everybody should make up their bed and make themselves comfortable.  In all this talk I've never insulted anyone for their view.  I've simply stated what I believe. I ain't judging nobody or condemning anyone either.  The same Bible I quote states that all men are condemned but for God's grace.  Anyone could reach to heaven with a pure heart and find the answers they need.  Fear God and keep His commands.

Lol... who insult you breds?

Doh study dem by die hard - it's like data mining.  If yuh mine a large enough amount of data, you will find stuff to support your argument.

Plantation owners and Pro-segregationists used to use the bible to support their beliefs too, when the morality of slavery and apartheid used to be called into question.

Yes, and it would be clear to anyone who is somewhat literate that the Bible does/did not preach either of those things. The reasons for slavery and the ensuing racism was sociological/economic - not religious so don't even go there.

Toppa now yuh just picking and choosing.  The reasons for marriage were also "sociological/economic"... but the bible "does/did not preach" slavery and apartheid but it preaches about marriage?  Get real, lol.

[Bakes]

It is not a matter of people picking and choosing. The Mosaic Law became obsolete once the new covenant was made through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Which is also why it is no longer necessary to observe the sabbath amongst other things. You cannot compare day-to-day life of the jewish people under Mosaic law to the actual commands of the Bible. Bit ridiculous, methinks.

False... Christ himself say he didn't come to abolish the law, so what made it "obsolete"? Even so, in saying that he is the New Covenant was speaking specifically about the requirements of the old covenant Moses made with God being no longer necessary from a religious standpoint... he wasn't talking about what you term "Mosaic law".

[kicker]

Yes, and it would be clear to anyone who is somewhat literate that the Bible does/did not preach either of those things. The reasons for slavery and the ensuing racism was sociological/economic - not religious so don't even go there.

Toppa now yuh just picking and choosing.  The reasons for marriage were also "sociological/economic"... but the bible "does/did not preach" slavery and apartheid but it preaches about marriage?  Get real, lol.

Thanks Bakes - Toppa you for real? lol

[D.H.W]

Obama just lost my vote.

I guess everyone really have a price...

who you voting for Romney ? 

[JDB]

1) I don't recall my response being to you.

Didn't know this was an invitation thing. Who was addressing you when you make your first entry on this thread?

2) Other people brought the Bible into this which is what I responded to. If you don't believe in the Bible then I suggest you keep it moving. 

Understandable, but it's not like a send yuh the question by PM, it is for anyone ot answer or comment on...

but I ask the question because the context of this debate is about laws governing same-sex relationships. I know we gone off on a "what the Bible say" tangent but even if we accept that the Bible say that homosexuality is sin...then what? The Bible can't be a foundation for law-making in a democracy where you claim to have separation of Church and State.

How different would it be from a state run under Sharia law if we use one religion or ten religions to justify a legal definition of marriage?

The component of marriage in the public debate is not the religious one, but the social and economic one. The debate is about same-sex couples that operate in society in the same way as traditional couples being granted equal economic and social rights under the law. Rights to healthcare coverage, next of kin status, child support, child visitation priveleges in the event of a break-up etc.

Those in opposition to same-sex marriage recognition under the law need to come out and say that they believe same-sex couples are less equal than heterosexual couples and why?

[truetrini]

Paul said it was better to marry than to burn.

I find it incredulous that anyone can argue that marriage was not between man and woman from the beginning!

Now as I said if the homos want to marry let them, no skin off my back, but the fact is man always married women and vice versa, not man and man and woman and woman.

Marriage as defined in the Bible and other Holy Books all relate to man and woman!

Any argument otherwise is weak.   Customs and traditions are important and marriage is man and woman...plain and simple.

Now if we want to have marriage evolve to include man and man and woman and woman cool, but it is clear that marriage was between a man and a woman from the get go.

[Bakes]

Paul said it was better to marry than to burn.

I find it incredulous that anyone can argue that marriage was not between man and woman from the beginning!

Now as I said if the homos want to marry let them, no skin off my back, but the fact is man always married women and vice versa, not man and man and woman and woman.

Marriage as defined in the Bible and other Holy Books all relate to man and woman!

Any argument otherwise is weak.   Customs and traditions are important and marriage is man and woman...plain and simple.

Now if we want to have marriage evolve to include man and man and woman and woman cool, but it is clear that marriage was between a man and a woman from the get go.

I think you need to stop making strawman arguments... I don't recall anybody saying marriage was not between man and woman "from the beginning".  The point is that the Bible doesn't define it as being exclusively between man and woman.

...actually, for that matter where in the bible is marriage defined at all?

You criticizing others for "weak" arguments, yet have nerve to be basing yours on "customs and traditions" in the same breath?  Do we even have to address some ah de questionable "customs and traditions" in the Bible?

[truetrini]

weak arguments? How many laws are based on customs and traditions?

Isn't common law based on civil traditions?

Come on man, it is clear that the Bible defines marriage as between a man and woman.

Eph. 5:23-32 clearly defines marriage with a nice background from Gen. 2:18, 21-24

Now yuh go make people feel I believe in Bible and God etc.

[Bakes]

weak arguments? How many laws are based on customs and traditions?

Isn't common law based on civil traditions?

Come on man, it is clear that the Bible defines marriage as between a man and woman.

Eph. 5:23-32 clearly defines marriage with a nice background from Gen. 2:18, 21-24

Now yuh go make people feel I believe in Bible and God etc.

What does "common law" have to do with anything?  The fact of the matter is that you're making a weak-ass argument that the bible say marriage is exclusively between man and woman, if all you have to point to is "customs and traditions".  At the end of the day the law is still decided based on facts, something which yuh lacking right now.

Those passages from Ephesians and Genesis don't "define" marriage as between man and woman... they describe a heterosexual marriage.  Since the Bible does not describe any homosexual marriages a fair inference may be drawn that homosexual marriages are prohibited by God/the Bible... but the absence of such isn't the same as a clear prohibition.  You can't make the leap to go from an inference to saying "the Bible/God says".  Big difference. 

[Toppa]

Genesis 2:4

“A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.”

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


Matthew 19:4
In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?

The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


Hebrews 13:4

'Let marriage be honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge fornicators and adulterers.'

Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.


God commands that the marriage should be 'honourable amongst all.' Would a homosexual 'marriage' be viewed as honourable to the Creator? No. He regards homosexuality as something 'detestable'.

...yeah, opinion Doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.

I read what you said about 'nowhere does it say that same-sex marriage is expressly prohibited' and was genuinely shocked.

So you would look at the abundantly clear prohibitions against homosexual relations, repeated assertions of marriage being a union of a man and woman and still try to argue that one cannot logically conclude that a homosexual marriage would be displeasing to the Creator.

If that is your assertion, then I have nothing else to say to you.

You were saying?

Excuse me but you started off saying that the Bible never spoke of the exclusivity of marriage being between a man and a woman - I showed you evidence of this.

You also made another gaffe and im[lied that the Bible never mentions 'marriage' in the first place. I provided evidence of this.

But based on your reasoning...would you also say that God would be in favour of a man marrying an animal? Since the Bible doesn't expressly prohibit it, of course.

I mean, I could understand arguing for arguing sake - but this just makes ZERO sense. I am really surprised.

[Toppa]

I not going an get into no personal insults with you, my point is simple.  Let everybody do want they feel they need to do.  Yuh want to be with a man, then do it.  Anybody who don't believe in God or the bible fine.  Everybody should make up their bed and make themselves comfortable.  In all this talk I've never insulted anyone for their view.  I've simply stated what I believe. I ain't judging nobody or condemning anyone either.  The same Bible I quote states that all men are condemned but for God's grace.  Anyone could reach to heaven with a pure heart and find the answers they need.  Fear God and keep His commands.

Lol... who insult you breds?

Doh study dem by die hard - it's like data mining.  If yuh mine a large enough amount of data, you will find stuff to support your argument.

Plantation owners and Pro-segregationists used to use the bible to support their beliefs too, when the morality of slavery and apartheid used to be called into question.

Yes, and it would be clear to anyone who is somewhat literate that the Bible does/did not preach either of those things. The reasons for slavery and the ensuing racism was sociological/economic - not religious so don't even go there.

Toppa now yuh just picking and choosing.  The reasons for marriage were also "sociological/economic"... but the bible "does/did not preach" slavery and apartheid but it preaches about marriage?  Get real, lol.

What were the sociological/economic reason for marriage expressed in the Bible?

Kicker was implying that slavery, apartheid and by proxy racisim had religious roots. That is not true as any student of history should know.

[Toppa]

It is not a matter of people picking and choosing. The Mosaic Law became obsolete once the new covenant was made through Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. Which is also why it is no longer necessary to observe the sabbath amongst other things. You cannot compare day-to-day life of the jewish people under Mosaic law to the actual commands of the Bible. Bit ridiculous, methinks.

False... Christ himself say he didn't come to abolish the law, so what made it "obsolete"? Even so, in saying that he is the New Covenant was speaking specifically about the requirements of the old covenant Moses made with God being no longer necessary from a religious standpoint... he wasn't talking about what you term "Mosaic law".

So then what was he talking about if it were not the Mosaic law such as circumcision and observing the sabbath?

Also, the fact that the Jews were no longer required to follow the Mosaic law and the fact that Christ's sacrifice also extended to the gentiles, made the Mosaic law obsolete.

ob·so·lete/ˌäbsəˈlēt/

Adjective:

No longer produced or used; out of date.
 
Verb:

Cause (a product or idea) to be or become obsolete by replacing it with something new: "we're obsoleting last year's designs".
 

[Toppa]

Yes, and it would be clear to anyone who is somewhat literate that the Bible does/did not preach either of those things. The reasons for slavery and the ensuing racism was sociological/economic - not religious so don't even go there.

Toppa now yuh just picking and choosing.  The reasons for marriage were also "sociological/economic"... but the bible "does/did not preach" slavery and apartheid but it preaches about marriage?  Get real, lol.

Thanks Bakes - Toppa you for real? lol

See my response to Bakes.

[Toppa]

weak arguments? How many laws are based on customs and traditions?

Isn't common law based on civil traditions?

Come on man, it is clear that the Bible defines marriage as between a man and woman.

Eph. 5:23-32 clearly defines marriage with a nice background from Gen. 2:18, 21-24

Now yuh go make people feel I believe in Bible and God etc.

What does "common law" have to do with anything?  The fact of the matter is that you're making a weak-ass argument that the bible say marriage is exclusively between man and woman, if all you have to point to is "customs and traditions".  At the end of the day the law is still decided based on facts, something which yuh lacking right now.

Those passages from Ephesians and Genesis don't "define" marriage as between man and woman... they describe a heterosexual marriage.  Since the Bible does not describe any homosexual marriages a fair inference may be drawn that homosexual marriages are prohibited by God/the Bible... but the absence of such isn't the same as a clear prohibition.  You can't make the leap to go from an inference to saying "the Bible/God says".  Big difference. 

hahaha Ok, homosexuality is roundly condemned, Sodom and Gomorrah got fire and brimstone for that amongst other things and yet you would sit down and say that a homosexual marriage might be ok afterall! LOL

So as I asked before, would God also approve of a man marrying an animal?

[Toppa]

1) I don't recall my response being to you.

Didn't know this was an invitation thing. Who was addressing you when you make your first entry on this thread?

2) Other people brought the Bible into this which is what I responded to. If you don't believe in the Bible then I suggest you keep it moving. 

Understandable, but it's not like a send yuh the question by PM, it is for anyone ot answer or comment on...

but I ask the question because the context of this debate is about laws governing same-sex relationships. I know we gone off on a "what the Bible say" tangent but even if we accept that the Bible say that homosexuality is sin...then what? The Bible can't be a foundation for law-making in a democracy where you claim to have separation of Church and State.

How different would it be from a state run under Sharia law if we use one religion or ten religions to justify a legal definition of marriage?

The component of marriage in the public debate is not the religious one, but the social and economic one. The debate is about same-sex couples that operate in society in the same way as traditional couples being granted equal economic and social rights under the law. Rights to healthcare coverage, next of kin status, child support, child visitation priveleges in the event of a break-up etc.

Those in opposition to same-sex marriage recognition under the law need to come out and say that they believe same-sex couples are less equal than heterosexual couples and why?

I don't vote, I don't participate in politics, I have no party allegiance. I simply observe politics with wry cynicism.

I state my opinions on matters (when I feel like it) whether they are of a religious basis or not.

To the rest of your post, you will be better served being answered by someone who actually does participates in politics, not by me.

I entered this discussion when the Bible was brought in and all the replies have revolved around that.