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Offline Bakes

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1050 on: May 15, 2012, 12:32:19 PM »
Bakes, your head in the clouds and I'm not sure why you intent on leaving it there on this issue.  You would think a man of your profession would see that 1 + 1=2   The historical context of all the scriptures presented is in no way mysterious or vague in it's language.  Was Eve Adam's wife?  Did God make it so?  Whatever you can't see, you doh want to see.  Which is fine by me. 
What should should the All Wise, All knowing God should have done to make it clear in your eyes?   What would you have added? 

Here's another.  Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

I'm sure I don't need to unpack the historical and sociological context of this verse. 

What do you think the All Wise Father missed to imply clarity on this issue? 

This from the same man who without cause or reason bawl "I not going to get into no personal insults with you"?  I tell you yuh should read up some more on Paul and yuh sanctimoniously try and make ah scramble fuh de high road, yet without warrant yuh coming to tell me my "head in the clouds"? lol... aye, no wonder so many non-Christians does look at we and call we hypocrites.

btw... thanks for that posting that scripture from Leviticus, I actually forgot about that.  It is interesting though that all of the focus of the bible isn't so much on gay marriage, as it is the gay sex act.

Offline pecan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1051 on: May 15, 2012, 01:31:05 PM »


lol Jesus also described himself as a 'helper' to mankind - is that a dishonourable thing?

Also, your references to the women stuff is neither here nor there.  :-\ Homosexuality is not only condemed in the Old Testament but the New as well.

I have to backtrack a bit in this thread due to the amount of posts in the last 20 hours and I only now checking the thread ...


You completely missed the point I was attempting to make: if you want to quote the Bible literally to support a specific argument, be aware that you open to door to challenge as the Bible is fraught with statements that many Christians chose to ignore or rationalize away; hence my quotes on the status of women as defined in the Bible. I find Bible-based 'Marriage arguments' weak if based on literal interpretations of select quotes. The Bible also says a lot of things we no longer accept today (hence my examples; btw, the Bible also condoned slavery and incest, behaviours which we deem to be unacceptable in today's societies). And my comments in no way suggest that Jesus as "a helper to mankind" is dishonourable. Why you would raise that question is perplexing. But I suppose it is no way different than saying my comments are neither here nor there .. lol

Early Christianity viewed the origin of Bible as a divine product with divine authority and hence interpreted it literally.

However, new paradigms and evolving schools of thought regarding Christianity suggest that the Bible was a human response to God and should be interpreted as being historical and metaphorical. Hence the Bible should be viewed as sacred in its status but NOT in its origin. So we read both the old and new testaments and try to learn from what is written as we embark on our spiritual journeys.

I have found this latter approach explains away many aspects that if taken literally, are really disturbing (again, the role of women, the notion of slavery, incest, and the various forms of marriage).

Do I think that Marriage is only between one man and one woman?  All the quotes and arguments made by opponents of same sex marriage (in this thread and in the general media) have yet to convince me. Rather, they have done the opposite. in fact, if I were to pick and chose a concept of marriage, then it seems I have a lot to chose from, including some very disturbing versions (see the image I posted earlier).

As Bakes just point out, much of the objections to same sex unions seems to focus on the sex act. Perhaps the focus should be on relationships in general and what is necessary to sustain a loving and caring relationship.  And not on whether the Bible condemns or condones certain behaviours.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 01:32:39 PM by pecan »
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Offline Preacher

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1052 on: May 15, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »
Bakes, your head in the clouds and I'm not sure why you intent on leaving it there on this issue.  You would think a man of your profession would see that 1 + 1=2   The historical context of all the scriptures presented is in no way mysterious or vague in it's language.  Was Eve Adam's wife?  Did God make it so?  Whatever you can't see, you doh want to see.  Which is fine by me. 
What should should the All Wise, All knowing God should have done to make it clear in your eyes?   What would you have added? 

Here's another.  Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

I'm sure I don't need to unpack the historical and sociological context of this verse. 

What do you think the All Wise Father missed to imply clarity on this issue? 

This from the same man who without cause or reason bawl "I not going to get into no personal insults with you"?  I tell you yuh should read up some more on Paul and yuh sanctimoniously try and make ah scramble fuh de high road, yet without warrant yuh coming to tell me my "head in the clouds"? lol... aye, no wonder so many non-Christians does look at we and call we hypocrites.

btw... thanks for that posting that scripture from Leviticus, I actually forgot about that.  It is interesting though that all of the focus of the bible isn't so much on gay marriage, as it is the gay sex act.

 ;D  Yes I admit sometimes I'm a hypocrite.  But not in this thread though.  All them non-Christians you referring to could see I stand by my beliefs and the scriptures.  Nonetheless, small thing.

You didn't answer my questions to you though.  With all of this marginal evidence in the Bible on Gay Marriage/relationships.  What would you have added to make it clearer?  Since the God that we believe is so vague on it.   And look you leading Pecan astray.  :)

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

This is a Law.  How this go only involve the act and not the marriage? 
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Offline Peong

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1053 on: May 15, 2012, 06:19:03 PM »
If gays can't get married they turn hetero and sin no more, right?

Offline pecan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1054 on: May 15, 2012, 07:29:27 PM »

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

This is a Law.  How this go only involve the act and not the marriage? 

Does that mean only the missionary position? doggy style is forbidden?  :devil:
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1055 on: May 15, 2012, 10:52:44 PM »
;D  Yes I admit sometimes I'm a hypocrite.  But not in this thread though.  All them non-Christians you referring to could see I stand by my beliefs and the scriptures.  Nonetheless, small thing.

You didn't answer my questions to you though.  With all of this marginal evidence in the Bible on Gay Marriage/relationships.  What would you have added to make it clearer?  Since the God that we believe is so vague on it.   And look you leading Pecan astray.  :)

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

This is a Law.  How this go only involve the act and not the marriage? 

How yuh go say yuh not being a hypocrite... especially after I done point out your hypocrisy to you.  The minute you ketch feelings off something I say (never mind I didn't mean anything by the comment) yuh rush to bawl yuh not on no personal insults... only to turn around and try and belittle me by telling me my head in the clouds?  Or maybe yuh meant that in a complimentary way  ::)  Mind you, me eh ketching no feelings eh... I just amazed by the brazen about face.

As for your last question... again, there is nothing in the bible that expressly prohibits gay marriage, the prohibitions and concerns voiced in the Bible all refer to homosexual sex.  There are many heterosexuals who get married and never have sex, I dunno why allyuh opponents of gay marriage so fixated on what happening (in allyuh mind) in the bedroom.  I am not suggesting that gay couple will not have sex... but seems like allyuh trying to prevent them from getting married, premised on arguments that more directly target the sexual aspect of the relationship.  Even if two castrati were to try and get married allyuh would oppose it even though they cyah engage in de act of "abomination" allyuh so detest.  And we eh even start talking about de poor lesbians and dem, lol

As for what else I would have "liked" to see... this ent about me pardna, is what else allyuh Bible thumpers need in allyuh arsenal in order to persuade people that God prohibits gay marriage.  God isn't shy about making his feelings clear about other things, lying, murder, disrespecting parents, worshiping false Gods, sleeping with next man wife.  He didn't think about gay marriage or what?  Doh ask what else I want from God... God eh write de Bible.

Offline lefty

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1056 on: May 16, 2012, 06:24:29 AM »
;D  Yes I admit sometimes I'm a hypocrite.  But not in this thread though.  All them non-Christians you referring to could see I stand by my beliefs and the scriptures.  Nonetheless, small thing.

You didn't answer my questions to you though.  With all of this marginal evidence in the Bible on Gay Marriage/relationships.  What would you have added to make it clearer?  Since the God that we believe is so vague on it.   And look you leading Pecan astray.  :)

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination

This is a Law.  How this go only involve the act and not the marriage? 

How yuh go say yuh not being a hypocrite... especially after I done point out your hypocrisy to you.  The minute you ketch feelings off something I say (never mind I didn't mean anything by the comment) yuh rush to bawl yuh not on no personal insults... only to turn around and try and belittle me by telling me my head in the clouds?  Or maybe yuh meant that in a complimentary way  ::)  Mind you, me eh ketching no feelings eh... I just amazed by the brazen about face.

As for your last question... again, there is nothing in the bible that expressly prohibits gay marriage, the prohibitions and concerns voiced in the Bible all refer to homosexual sex.  There are many heterosexuals who get married and never have sex, I dunno why allyuh opponents of gay marriage so fixated on what happening (in allyuh mind) in the bedroom.  I am not suggesting that gay couple will not have sex... but seems like allyuh trying to prevent them from getting married, premised on arguments that more directly target the sexual aspect of the relationship.  Even if two castrati were to try and get married allyuh would oppose it even though they cyah engage in de act of "abomination" allyuh so detest.  And we eh even start talking about de poor lesbians and dem, lol

As for what else I would have "liked" to see... this ent about me pardna, is what else allyuh Bible thumpers need in allyuh arsenal in order to persuade people that God prohibits gay marriage.  God isn't shy about making his feelings clear about other things, lying, murder, disrespecting parents, worshiping false Gods, sleeping with next man wife.  He didn't think about gay marriage or what?  Doh ask what else I want from God... God eh write de Bible.

dis to me is d crux ah d matter d saints had minds of their own and opinions of their own and their writings were heavily influenced by their own feelings on many issues........
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Offline pecan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1057 on: May 19, 2012, 06:13:36 PM »
NAACP Endorses Gay Marriage



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/naacp-gay-marriage_n_1530029.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

Less than two weeks after President Barack Obama announced his public support for gay marriage, a prominent African-American civil rights organization is following suit.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People's board of directors voted to endorse gay marriage on Saturday, according to a tweet from NAACP officer Maxim Thorne.

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Offline elan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1058 on: May 21, 2012, 05:26:14 PM »
My Take: The Christian case for gay marriage
Editor's Note: Mark Osler is a Professor of Law at the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, Minnesota.


By Mark Osler, Special to CNN


I am a Christian, and I am in favor of gay marriage. The reason I am for gay marriage is because of my faith.

What I see in the Bible’s accounts of Jesus and his followers is an insistence that we don’t have the moral authority to deny others the blessing of holy institutions like baptism, communion, and marriage. God, through the Holy Spirit, infuses those moments with life, and it is not ours to either give or deny to others.

A clear instruction on this comes from Simon Peter, the “rock” on whom the church is built. Peter is a captivating figure in the Christian story. Jesus plucks him out of a fishing boat to become a disciple, and time and again he represents us all in learning at the feet of Christ.

During their time together, Peter is often naïve and clueless – he is a follower, constantly learning.

After Jesus is crucified, though, a different Peter emerges, one who is forceful and bold. This is the Peter we see in the Acts of the Apostles, during a fevered debate over whether or not Gentiles should be baptized. Peter was harshly criticized for even eating a meal with those who were uncircumcised; that is, those who did not follow the commands of the Old Testament.


Peter, though, is strong in confronting those who would deny the sacrament of baptism to the Gentiles, and argues for an acceptance of believers who do not follow the circumcision rules of Leviticus (which is also where we find a condemnation of homosexuality).

His challenge is stark and stunning: Before ordering that the Gentiles be baptized Peter asks “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

None of us, Peter says, has the moral authority to deny baptism to those who seek it, even if they do not follow the ancient laws. It is the flooding love of the Holy Spirit, which fell over that entire crowd, sinners and saints alike, that directs otherwise.


It is not our place, it seems, to sort out who should be denied a bond with God and the Holy Spirit of the kind that we find through baptism, communion, and marriage. The water will flow where it will.

Intriguingly, this rule will apply whether we see homosexuality as a sin or not. The water is for all of us. We see the same thing at the Last Supper, as Jesus gives the bread and wine to all who are there—even to Peter, who Jesus said would deny him, and to Judas, who would betray him.

The question before us now is not whether homosexuality is a sin, but whether being gay should be a bar to baptism or communion or marriage.


The answer is in the Bible. Peter and Jesus offer a strikingly inclusive form of love and engagement. They hold out the symbols of Gods’ love to all. How arrogant that we think it is ours to parse out stingily!

I worship at St. Stephens, an Episcopal church in Edina, Minnesota. There is a river that flows around the back and side of that church with a delightful name: Minnehaha Creek. That is where we do baptisms.

The Rector stands in the creek in his robes, the cool water coursing by his feet, and takes an infant into his arms and baptizes her with that same cool water. The congregation sits on the grassy bank and watches, a gentle army.


At the bottom of the creek, in exactly that spot, is a floor of smooth pebbles. The water rushing by has rubbed off the rough edges, bit by bit, day by day. The pebbles have been transformed by that water into something new.

I suppose that, as Peter put it, someone could try to withhold the waters of baptism there. They could try to stop the river, to keep the water from some of the stones, like a child in the gutter building a barrier against the stream.

It won’t last, though. I would say this to those who would withhold the water of baptism, the joy of worship, or the bonds of marriage: You are less strong than the water, which will flow around you, find its path, and gently erode each wall you try to erect.

The redeeming power of that creek, and of the Holy Spirit, is relentless, making us all into something better and new.
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Offline Preacher

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1059 on: May 21, 2012, 06:57:49 PM »
Somebody give this writer a leg, two eyes and a Strong's Concordance please. 

Here is the love in action and Jesus' stand on sin.   Some preachers caught a woman having sex with a fella that is not her husband.  They let the man go and bring the woman.  They tell Jesus, the woman should be stoned according to the law, which was Jewish law.  What did Jesus do?  Well since he is the Real Law/Word in the flesh.  He asked a simple question.  "Which one of allyuh never do anything wrong?"  "If you never do anything wrong, then pelt first."    No one pelt, they dropped their rocks and left.  Jesus turned to the woman...and this is the important part...this is the love...  Because he could have stoned her.  See?  He says...No one is condemning you and I'm not condemning you.   

Two things
1.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  Seeing it in action
2. Is that all he said?  Heck No!!!!  He also said to her "Stop doing that."   

God can't help you if He can't speak to your lifestyle.  See, people want God love but God can't tell them to "stop doing that."  If that's the case then you are condemned by your actions and Jesus can't help you.  So must people try to twist the bible into a free for all and call it love.

This is how it works.
For God so love the world (including hypocrite preachers, rapists, child molesters and gays) that He gave his only son that whoever, believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life.   What more you want?  The bible says "For while we were yet sinners/God's enemy, Christ died for us."  While we were God's enemy and deserved death he died for us. 

God loves all people including professing and practicing gays.  But His response is simply, stop doing that.  If Jesus=Word can't speak to you on this issue then brace yourself for this.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

He is the Ruler...He sets the laws and the boundaries.  So if you don't like it in His kingdom you free to go work for the other guy.


 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline elan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1060 on: May 21, 2012, 07:04:29 PM »
Preacher, I understand what you say, but I think you miss the point the writer trying to get across.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1061 on: May 21, 2012, 07:14:38 PM »
Somebody give this writer a leg, two eyes and a Strong's Concordance please. 

Here is the love in action and Jesus' stand on sin.   Some preachers caught a woman having sex with a fella that is not her husband.  They let the man go and bring the woman.  They tell Jesus, the woman should be stoned according to the law, which was Jewish law.  What did Jesus do?  Well since he is the Real Law/Word in the flesh.  He asked a simple question.  "Which one of allyuh never do anything wrong?"  "If you never do anything wrong, then pelt first."    No one pelt, they dropped their rocks and left.  Jesus turned to the woman...and this is the important part...this is the love...  Because he could have stoned her.  See?  He says...No one is condemning you and I'm not condemning you.   

Two things
1.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  Seeing it in action
2. Is that all he said?  Heck No!!!!  He also said to her "Stop doing that."   

God can't help you if He can't speak to your lifestyle.  See, people want God love but God can't tell them to "stop doing that."  If that's the case then you are condemned by your actions and Jesus can't help you.  So must people try to twist the bible into a free for all and call it love.

This is how it works.
For God so love the world (including hypocrite preachers, rapists, child molesters and gays) that He gave his only son that whoever, believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting Life.   What more you want?  The bible says "For while we were yet sinners/God's enemy, Christ died for us."  While we were God's enemy and deserved death he died for us. 

God loves all people including professing and practicing gays.  But His response is simply, stop doing that.  If Jesus=Word can't speak to you on this issue then brace yourself for this.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

He is the Ruler...He sets the laws and the boundaries.  So if you don't like it in His kingdom you free to go work for the other guy.


 

How does this relate to gays or gay marriage? Just asking.

Offline Preacher

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1062 on: May 21, 2012, 11:21:13 PM »
Preacher, I understand what you say, but I think you miss the point the writer trying to get across.

Maybe so, but my sense is that he's Lutheran.  This is based on how he lumps baptism, communion and marriage together as stuff that the church offers.  I've worked with Lutherans extensively and know several pastors and churches that have broken away on their main denomination because of ordination of Gay ministers etc.  I have many Lutheran friends, nice people but they run their faith like a check list.   For example, all stats show that when Lutheran youth get confirmed(check), high percentage leave their faith behind until they are ready to settle down, if that.  Why is this important?  Well, denominations that view and handle biblical institutions as a check list are more likely to lose the value and purpose of said institutions.  And when that happens anything goes.  And of course he attempts to qualify his views by leading with "I am a Christian."  Sadly, in America that means nothing.  So I may have gone a bit long Elan, on my reply, sorry.  :) 

I hope I was able to show from the bible, that God loves people regardless of their issues.  But he hates sin.  Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible.  So how can an entity that claims belief in the bible/Word of God/Jesus, endorse it in a ceremony that this entity has professed for centuries to be before man and the same God that gave us the bible?  Sure an argument can be made that this document was tainted by men.  But I think that the historical Jesus resolves that argument by endorsing it over and over.  It's believable that the God that said to the Sun and Moon, "Stay," could preserve His word if that is His intent.   Because of what I've seen in nature, backed up by scripture, I believe scripture is God's Word to men.  The only place left for anyone who wants to argue with the scripture on the matter is to not believe in God at all. 

Long again.  :)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 11:24:15 PM by Preacher »
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Offline kaliman2006

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1063 on: May 23, 2012, 12:23:53 PM »
Well, just so that there is no confusion on the Eternal Creator's stance on homosexual unions:

Leviticus 18 (excerpt)

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahwah (The Hebrew name for God) is fairly unequivocal on this point. I will never condemn a homosexual as it is not an easy lifestyle and I cannot imagine anyone deciding to practice this lifestyle by choice. However, if one were to believe the Bible, it is clear on this point.

Having said this, it is interesting that lesbianism is not really explicitly mentioned anywhere in the bible. It is beyond my expertise or understanding to say why. Perhaps, other members can weigh in on this issue.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 12:25:29 PM by kaliman2006 »

Offline pecan

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1064 on: May 23, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
Enough of quoting Leviticus to 'prove' that God said homosexuality is a sin. 

Leviticus also stared a bunch of other 'behaviors' that were deemed unacceptable but people today chose to ignore. For example:

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."



Enough


Re: lesbianism

Back then, women were property and for man's use. So lesbianism was not a big deal (I speculate).  Plus the Bible was written by men, not God.

If God had written the bible, Moses would not have been able to call all dem stone tablets across the dessert. Now, if he had an Ipad, that might have made it easier.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 01:27:18 PM by pecan »
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1065 on: May 23, 2012, 01:38:03 PM »
Because of what I've seen in nature, backed up by scripture, I believe scripture is God's Word to men.  The only place left for anyone who wants to argue with the scripture on the matter is to not believe in God at all. 

So if we doh  agree with you that "scripture is God's Word to men"... then that mean we doh believe in God?  We cyah disagree with yuh that scripture is God's absolute and verbatim word, despite the many influences of man on said scripture?

Okay... lol

Offline kaliman2006

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1066 on: May 23, 2012, 02:15:38 PM »
Enough of quoting Leviticus to 'prove' that God said homosexuality is a sin. 

Leviticus also stared a bunch of other 'behaviors' that were deemed unacceptable but people today chose to ignore. For example:

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."



Enough


Re: lesbianism

Back then, women were property and for man's use. So lesbianism was not a big deal (I speculate).  Plus the Bible was written by men, not God.

If God had written the bible, Moses would not have been able to call all dem stone tablets across the dessert. Now, if he had an Ipad, that might have made it easier.

Good point on the hypocrisy of those who seek to condemn homosexuality and not people who get tattoos. You are also right that, in many cases, men, influenced by their own agendas, wrote the bible and not Yahwah.

However, here are my rebuttals to your points. On the issue of tattoos, just because people choose to ignore what is written about them does not invalidate what is written in scripture. The failure of people to make a big deal about it may be more down to human failings than to the failings of what is written n Scripture. An analogy would be people who ignore doctors and eat unhealthy foods, often to their own detriment, but yet condemn alcoholics and drug users. There is a lot of hypocrisy there.

Which of course ties me to my second rebuttal. If I am to understand your argument, because the bible was written by men, then it is debatable what the Eternal Creator really meant. To get a clue of the true feelings of the Almighty on the matter, let us look at the natural consequences of homosexual unions. Can a healthy man and a man or woman and a woman procreate without artificial means (i.e. in vitro fertilization)? Can a healthy man and a woman procreate without artificial means (Assuming that the man is not sterile and the woman is not infertile)? We both know the answer to these questions.

Outside of the bible, which can be misinterpreted, is a natural law. The laws of biology provide for procreation between a man and a woman, not a man and a man. A homosexual couple who is looking to have a child would have to either adopt, or one of the partners would have to go the in vitro route (which involves a male sperm fertilizing a female egg).

The laws of science are indisputable on this point. Even allowing for in vitro fertilization, there still has to be some form of male-female sexual interaction (i.e. male sperm and female egg at the minimum) in order for life to be created.

Now if you want to counter that sex is not always for procreation, then that is another matter altogether. However, bear in mind, if that were the case and everyone decided to stop having sex to procreate, then humanity will eventually become extinct.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 02:18:55 PM by kaliman2006 »

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1067 on: May 23, 2012, 02:17:32 PM »
Preacher, I understand what you say, but I think you miss the point the writer trying to get across.
It's believable that the God that said to the Sun and Moon, "Stay," could preserve His word if that is His intent.   Because of what I've seen in nature, backed up by scripture, I believe scripture is God's Word to men.  The only place left for anyone who wants to argue with the scripture on the matter is to not believe in God at all. 

Long again.  :)

well both the sun and moon moving eh bredder.  so doh go and vote tuh teach "stationary helio and lunar science" to no kids in yuh home state yuh hear!? and the world wasn't created in no 7 earth days as we understand days to be right now seen!? doh go preachin that carbon dating is incorrect, and that all matter in the galaxy is the same age (made on the same day).  and there are no 4 corners to the earth as we understand corners, right!? yuh ent really doin no service to the Greatness of the teachings in the Bible by talking X-amount.

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1068 on: May 23, 2012, 08:24:20 PM »
Enough of quoting Leviticus to 'prove' that God said homosexuality is a sin. 

Leviticus also stared a bunch of other 'behaviors' that were deemed unacceptable but people today chose to ignore. For example:

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."



Enough


Re: lesbianism

Back then, women were property and for man's use. So lesbianism was not a big deal (I speculate).  Plus the Bible was written by men, not God.

If God had written the bible, Moses would not have been able to call all dem stone tablets across the dessert. Now, if he had an Ipad, that might have made it easier.

Good point on the hypocrisy of those who seek to condemn homosexuality and not people who get tattoos. You are also right that, in many cases, men, influenced by their own agendas, wrote the bible and not Yahwah.

However, here are my rebuttals to your points. On the issue of tattoos, just because people choose to ignore what is written about them does not invalidate what is written in scripture. The failure of people to make a big deal about it may be more down to human failings than to the failings of what is written n Scripture. An analogy would be people who ignore doctors and eat unhealthy foods, often to their own detriment, but yet condemn alcoholics and drug users. There is a lot of hypocrisy there.

Which of course ties me to my second rebuttal. If I am to understand your argument, because the bible was written by men, then it is debatable what the Eternal Creator really meant. To get a clue of the true feelings of the Almighty on the matter, let us look at the natural consequences of homosexual unions. Can a healthy man and a man or woman and a woman procreate without artificial means (i.e. in vitro fertilization)? Can a healthy man and a woman procreate without artificial means (Assuming that the man is not sterile and the woman is not infertile)? We both know the answer to these questions.

Outside of the bible, which can be misinterpreted, is a natural law. The laws of biology provide for procreation between a man and a woman, not a man and a man. A homosexual couple who is looking to have a child would have to either adopt, or one of the partners would have to go the in vitro route (which involves a male sperm fertilizing a female egg).

The laws of science are indisputable on this point. Even allowing for in vitro fertilization, there still has to be some form of male-female sexual interaction (i.e. male sperm and female egg at the minimum) in order for life to be created.

Now if you want to counter that sex is not always for procreation, then that is another matter altogether. However, bear in mind, if that were the case and everyone decided to stop having sex to procreate, then humanity will eventually become extinct.

this debate has been repeated Ad infinitum, however, a couple of quick points  (well three actually) ...

1) if people want to up hold the words of scripture as verbatim, then those people should also speak out about the other infractions of the bible.  Strangely, they are silent - see my earlier posts regarding the treatment of women as prescribed in the bible.

2) if marriage is about procreation, then what about heterosexual unions that do not produce children? is the love between an infertile couple, or a couple that chose not to have children, or older adults who cannot bear children, any less that those couples with children. Any less that a same sex couple?  "Natural Law" creates many instances in which many hetero unions cannot produce off-spring. Or are these cases not really natural law, but aberrations? Are we to condemn them the same way same sex unions are condemned?

3) The world's population just surpassed 7 BILLION.  AND most of that came within the last 100 years!!!



Do you really think that the propagation of the human race is at risk due to same sex unions? 

In the past, people use the Bible to justify slavery.  Thank God that was over turned.



Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1069 on: May 23, 2012, 08:37:52 PM »
Because of what I've seen in nature, backed up by scripture, I believe scripture is God's Word to men.  The only place left for anyone who wants to argue with the scripture on the matter is to not believe in God at all. 

So if we doh  agree with you that "scripture is God's Word to men"... then that mean we doh believe in God?  We cyah disagree with yuh that scripture is God's absolute and verbatim word, despite the many influences of man on said scripture?

Okay... lol

Nah I ain't trying to broad brush nuttin.  :) There are influences in scripture which obviously have had human interpretation to it.  However, the ones I've found doesn't change the big idea of the story.  For example;

Psalms 8:4-5
What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
For you have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor

Now OT is Hebrew...that word 'angels' is not in the original manuscript.  The word in the original manuscript is Elohim(Hebrew)  So the verse actually means that God has made men a little lower than Himself.  That would put men higher than angels.  Now this gives great understanding to the power God gave to men and what happens when we pray.  If you love to study the word that's a piece of stake.  :) But it doesn't change the big idea of the verse nor the message of the writing.   God is greater than men and extents His love to them. 

Now Bakes I've come across many mistranslated words but I've never come across a completely new big idea on any topic.  Concerning Old Testament references to homosexuality the big idea is solid.  Mind you, it's smack in the middle of laws that modern society would never condone.  Fair enough, but to me it doesn't change the big idea.  God wants people to live righteously.  Ok, you shouldn't stone your children for disobeying you.   Does that make obeying your parents obsolete?   I don't believe anything can change the big idea concerning homosexuality.  All I'm saying is for that to happen you'll have to change your view of the bible, which as you see many people have different views anyway. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:43:32 PM by Preacher »
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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1070 on: May 23, 2012, 09:06:33 PM »
Which of course ties me to my second rebuttal. If I am to understand your argument, because the bible was written by men, then it is debatable what the Eternal Creator really meant. To get a clue of the true feelings of the Almighty on the matter, let us look at the natural consequences of homosexual unions. Can a healthy man and a man or woman and a woman procreate without artificial means (i.e. in vitro fertilization)? Can a healthy man and a woman procreate without artificial means (Assuming that the man is not sterile and the woman is not infertile)? We both know the answer to these questions.

Outside of the bible, which can be misinterpreted, is a natural law. The laws of biology provide for procreation between a man and a woman, not a man and a man. A homosexual couple who is looking to have a child would have to either adopt, or one of the partners would have to go the in vitro route (which involves a male sperm fertilizing a female egg).

The laws of science are indisputable on this point. Even allowing for in vitro fertilization, there still has to be some form of male-female sexual interaction (i.e. male sperm and female egg at the minimum) in order for life to be created.

Now if you want to counter that sex is not always for procreation, then that is another matter altogether. However, bear in mind, if that were the case and everyone decided to stop having sex to procreate, then humanity will eventually become extinct.

Without a doubt personal biases crept into the writings of men like the Apostle Paul.  As critical as I am of him (and his unbridled misogyny and prudery, I still acknowledge him as the greatest and most influential Christian writer... we all have our failings.  The bible thumpers want to act like God himself set pen to paper in writing the bible.  It's the Catholic church who at the Council of Trent, decided to vote on which books made it into the canon, and which books were excluded.  For all we know, there are books out there that contain words attributed to Christ that are not so critical of homosexuality.  But we don't know b/c the good Catholic Bishops voted them out.

Proverbs 3:5 says "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"... this is what we are supposed to do in order to decipher divine intent, turn to God for guidance as we read and interpret the Word.  but nah, some want to interpret what they read literally and often in a manner that suits their agenda.  I take the bible as a guide, nothing else.  A great deal of what I read I take with a grain of salt... not that I disregard it as false, but rather I read it critically.  For many Christians that is blasphemy... which is nonsense.
 

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1071 on: May 23, 2012, 10:22:35 PM »
I'm not particularly good with Christianity and scriptures, and I don't have the depth of knowledge to withstand a heated argument on the subject, but there are the Gnostic Gospels which are supposedly the gospels rejected by the Catholic Church as they didn't fit the story they wanted to tell. I believe there are stories of a "secret" Mark gospel which (if you wish to interpret the writing in such a way) suggests a young guy was in love with Jesus and that they slept under the same roof (of course, some people literally said Jesus had a gay affair with the youth)

I must admit to being a NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) concerning homosexuality. I don't see a problem with it as long as I don't have to witness it (and I don't mean the sex!) Although, of course, I think lesbianism is the 8th wonder of the world!

To me, I can understand the church being upset, but in the 21st Century, I think toleration is called for.

And I find it strange that supposedly heterosexual men who have sex with other males (i.e. prisoners, English Public Schoolboys, Armed services personnel, paedophiles) are usually the loudest voices against homosexuality.

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1072 on: May 23, 2012, 10:29:06 PM »
When allyuh could find a verse or book in the Bible, in an apocryphal book, in a dead sea scroll or any other writing that merited consideration for inclusion into the Bible that in any way alludes to God radically changed his views on homosexuality and same sex unions.... Then by all means please lemme know.

Cause ah find all these kinda false-positive arguments allyuh coming with to suggest that because something not explicitly prohibited in the Bible mean that  it could be somehow acceptable to be real lacking. By that kinda reasoning, we could basically apply that to anything not explicitly prohibited in the New Testament and cast a big wide net and say that pretty much anything goes.

Also on a side note, what does the Koran have to say on the issue and have their ever been same sex marriages conducted under muslim rites?
         

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1073 on: May 24, 2012, 05:40:45 AM »
Nah I ain't trying to broad brush nuttin.  :) There are influences in scripture which obviously have had human interpretation to it. 

Preach between this and your earlier admission that some scripture is the result of men wanting to make rules it sounds like yuh  admitting that a lot of the Bible is up to interpretation.

However, the ones I've found doesn't change the big idea of the story. 

If you admit that a lot of it is subject to interpretation you have to undertsand that not everybody is going to find the same truth in the Bible.

You could also understand why people would look at a literal interpretation of some parts of the Bible and a complete ignorance of other parts as cherry-picking to suit a moral agenda.

The Bible is being presented as an unshaking foundation for societal morality on issues like homosexuality when it is flexible to the will of the person reading it. It is fine to use it as personal guide I don’t see how you apply parts of it verbatim to the lives of others.
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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1074 on: May 24, 2012, 05:42:28 AM »
Enough of quoting Leviticus to 'prove' that God said homosexuality is a sin. 

Leviticus also stared a bunch of other 'behaviors' that were deemed unacceptable but people today chose to ignore. For example:

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."



Enough


Re: lesbianism

Back then, women were property and for man's use. So lesbianism was not a big deal (I speculate).  Plus the Bible was written by men, not God.

If God had written the bible, Moses would not have been able to call all dem stone tablets across the dessert. Now, if he had an Ipad, that might have made it easier.

Good point on the hypocrisy of those who seek to condemn homosexuality and not people who get tattoos. You are also right that, in many cases, men, influenced by their own agendas, wrote the bible and not Yahwah.

However, here are my rebuttals to your points. On the issue of tattoos, just because people choose to ignore what is written about them does not invalidate what is written in scripture. The failure of people to make a big deal about it may be more down to human failings than to the failings of what is written n Scripture. An analogy would be people who ignore doctors and eat unhealthy foods, often to their own detriment, but yet condemn alcoholics and drug users. There is a lot of hypocrisy there.

Which of course ties me to my second rebuttal. If I am to understand your argument, because the bible was written by men, then it is debatable what the Eternal Creator really meant. To get a clue of the true feelings of the Almighty on the matter, let us look at the natural consequences of homosexual unions. Can a healthy man and a man or woman and a woman procreate without artificial means (i.e. in vitro fertilization)? Can a healthy man and a woman procreate without artificial means (Assuming that the man is not sterile and the woman is not infertile)? We both know the answer to these questions.

Outside of the bible, which can be misinterpreted, is a natural law. The laws of biology provide for procreation between a man and a woman, not a man and a man. A homosexual couple who is looking to have a child would have to either adopt, or one of the partners would have to go the in vitro route (which involves a male sperm fertilizing a female egg).

The laws of science are indisputable on this point. Even allowing for in vitro fertilization, there still has to be some form of male-female sexual interaction (i.e. male sperm and female egg at the minimum) in order for life to be created.

Now if you want to counter that sex is not always for procreation, then that is another matter altogether. However, bear in mind, if that were the case and everyone decided to stop having sex to procreate, then humanity will eventually become extinct.

this debate has been repeated Ad infinitum, however, a couple of quick points  (well three actually) ...

1) if people want to up hold the words of scripture as verbatim, then those people should also speak out about the other infractions of the bible.  Strangely, they are silent - see my earlier posts regarding the treatment of women as prescribed in the bible.

2) if marriage is about procreation, then what about heterosexual unions that do not produce children? is the love between an infertile couple, or a couple that chose not to have children, or older adults who cannot bear children, any less that those couples with children. Any less that a same sex couple?  "Natural Law" creates many instances in which many hetero unions cannot produce off-spring. Or are these cases not really natural law, but aberrations? Are we to condemn them the same way same sex unions are condemned?

3) The world's population just surpassed 7 BILLION.  AND most of that came within the last 100 years!!!



Do you really think that the propagation of the human race is at risk due to same sex unions? 

In the past, people use the Bible to justify slavery.  Thank God that was over turned.





1) On your first point, just because people are selective in their censure of certain acts does not invalidate the intent of what was originally written.

2) Assuming all things are equal, healthy heterosexual couples (i.e. ones in which the men are virile and the women are fertile) are able to procreate and healthy homosexual couples (again ones in which both men are virile) or healthy lesbian couples (both women are fertile) are unable to procreate. Thus, outside of physiological issues, the male and female DNA is designed for procreation when a man and woman have sexual intercourse. Homosexual couples cannot procreate under any circumstances. In terms of whether the love bewteen one type of couple is on the same scale as another is actually not within the realms of my argument. My argument is strictly down to biology.

3) The world population is indeed seven billion, and yes, procreation is not as much as a biological imperative as it was in ancient times. However, the reason that the population became seven billion in the first place was down to heterosexual unions, whether natural or artifical. Basically, the population is seven billion because many humans literally became "fruitful and multiplied." (Quoted material taken from Genesis 1:28).

To sum up, people are free to live as they please. Please do not misunderstand me on this point. I am not a religious zealot. I will be the first to say that the spiritual life is not for everybody and everyone has to deal with the world in the way in which they feel most comfortable. However, there are always consequences for the choices that we make in life. Technically, I am free to eat whatever I want. I can eat hamburgers and steak everyday. However, there is a natural consequence for that. I will become fat, develop serious health problems (high blood pressure, clogged arteries, etc), and have a very low quality of life down the road.

If homosexuality was to become the norm, rather than the exception in the world, then yes, I stand by what I originally asserted: humans will become extinct. 

I am not condemning homosexuals just for the sake of condemning them. Many of them are simply born with these tendencies. However, at the basic level, homosexuality and lesbianism is at odds with nature in that if allowed into the mainstream of sexual relationships, will eventually threaten the propogation of the human species.

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1075 on: May 24, 2012, 06:19:02 AM »
Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Ayatollah Abdollah Javadi-Amoli of Iran said, in April of 2012, that homosexuals are inferior to dogs and pigs, since these animals (presumably) do not engage in such acts.

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1076 on: May 24, 2012, 06:51:08 AM »

homosexuality and lesbianism is at odds with nature in that if allowed into the mainstream of sexual relationships, will eventually threaten the propogation of the human species.

there in lies the disconnect, u assume a conscious choice on the part of most if not all gay people to be gay or whatever, I am nolonger of the view that it is a 100% choice or a perversion to be guarded against and stamped out lest the world population be wiped out, I think dat "condition" somewhere in d genome..................it's just men by there very nature are prone to sexual deviance (ah mean who on hear wouldn't "take on" ;D d in entire babes thread if they could do so with no negative consequences) an' doh lie ;) ......factor women outa dat scenario and any mark could play....and I suppose dais where people mind gettin stick....but dis not about sex as much as it is about equality in the eyes of the law and remember marriage is much ah legal concern as it is spiritual\religious in this modern context.

 

« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 06:53:01 AM by lefty »
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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1077 on: May 24, 2012, 07:12:34 AM »
People don't decide to be Gay. I doubt any sane man or woman go just decide let me turn a gay today and run down woman/man.

Edit : the way I see it is anyone of us could of been born that way. I might not agree with the lifestyle but I ain't hating or discriminating, that is not for me to judge.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 07:15:58 AM by D.H.W »
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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1078 on: May 24, 2012, 07:27:22 AM »
1) On your first point, just because people are selective in their censure of certain acts does not invalidate the intent of what was originally written.

2) Assuming all things are equal, healthy heterosexual couples (i.e. ones in which the men are virile and the women are fertile) are able to procreate and healthy homosexual couples (again ones in which both men are virile) or healthy lesbian couples (both women are fertile) are unable to procreate. Thus, outside of physiological issues, the male and female DNA is designed for procreation when a man and woman have sexual intercourse. Homosexual couples cannot procreate under any circumstances. In terms of whether the love bewteen one type of couple is on the same scale as another is actually not within the realms of my argument. My argument is strictly down to biology.

3) The world population is indeed seven billion, and yes, procreation is not as much as a biological imperative as it was in ancient times. However, the reason that the population became seven billion in the first place was down to heterosexual unions, whether natural or artifical. Basically, the population is seven billion because many humans literally became "fruitful and multiplied." (Quoted material taken from Genesis 1:28).

To sum up, people are free to live as they please. Please do not misunderstand me on this point. I am not a religious zealot. I will be the first to say that the spiritual life is not for everybody and everyone has to deal with the world in the way in which they feel most comfortable. However, there are always consequences for the choices that we make in life. Technically, I am free to eat whatever I want. I can eat hamburgers and steak everyday. However, there is a natural consequence for that. I will become fat, develop serious health problems (high blood pressure, clogged arteries, etc), and have a very low quality of life down the road.

If homosexuality was to become the norm, rather than the exception in the world, then yes, I stand by what I originally asserted: humans will become extinct. 

I am not condemning homosexuals just for the sake of condemning them. Many of them are simply born with these tendencies. However, at the basic level, homosexuality and lesbianism is at odds with nature in that if allowed into the mainstream of sexual relationships, will eventually threaten the propogation of the human species.

1) OK - all I saying if that point is valid, then perhaps we should question why the other points are not.  But if the Bible is to be taken literally, then the Bible thumpers better observe all tenets of the Bible and not pick and chose to define their moral compass. Thjey cant have it both ways

2) Biology - OK, biologically, we need a male and a female to procreate. But just as there are infertile males and females, a small % of the population is homosexual.  But what does biology have to do with marriage? So do we deny them the right to marry because they are homosexual? We do not deny infertile couples the right to marry.

3) "If homosexuality was to become the norm" that is a supposition that has no foundation either biologically or otherwise.  Homosexuality will not become the norm. Hetero couples give birth to homosexuals and children raised by homosexual parent do not necessarily become homosexual


Anyways to quote Karl Barth: "I take the Bible far too seriously to take it literally."
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

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Re: Barack Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #1079 on: May 24, 2012, 07:35:15 AM »
People don't decide to be Gay. I doubt any sane man or woman go just decide let me turn a gay today and run down woman/man.

Edit : the way I see it is anyone of us could of been born that way. I might not agree with the lifestyle but I ain't hating or discriminating, that is not for me to judge.

this :beermug:

and  :beermug:

1) OK - all I saying if that point is valid, then perhaps we should question why the other points are not.  But if the Bible is to be taken literally, then the Bible thumpers better observe all tenets of the Bible and not pick and chose to define their moral compass. Thjey cant have it both ways

2) Biology - OK, biologically, we need a male and a female to procreate. But just as there are infertile males and females, a small % of the population is homosexual.  But what does biology have to do with marriage? So do we deny them the right to marry because they are homosexual? We do not deny infertile couples the right to marry.

3) "If homosexuality was to become the norm" that is a supposition that has no foundation either biologically or otherwise.  Homosexuality will not become the norm. Hetero couples give birth to homosexuals and children raised by homosexual parent do not necessarily become homosexual


Anyways to quote Karl Barth: "I take the Bible far too seriously to take it literally."
I pity the fool....

 

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