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Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1350 on: February 26, 2014, 08:59:47 PM »
Whenever this topic comes up, I tell myself to stay away.

Then I read a few hateful and bigoted comments and I inevitably find myself responding.

Ok, I think I got it out of my system.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1351 on: February 26, 2014, 09:16:20 PM »
Tiresais, I am not going to go back and forth with this topic.

Let them be who they are.

Just do not expect me to support this nonesense.

It would be interesting to see all the people who supports this that it comes in their lives in some form. Then you would sing a different song.

The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] - Numbers 14:18 (Generational Curses).

You'll quote the anti-gay text, but when it prices slaves to be sold you're all silent - you're a hypocrite. Tell me what's the conversion rate on a shekle these days Pastor? How much does the bible think I should demand for my slaves?

I have a number of gay friends - it affects me not, and I support their right to love whomever they love. Your passage condones punishing the child for the sins of the father - thanks for making my point about its immorality for me.

When saying so ... hmmm :thinking: ... Pastor Stuart, help me out nah ... introduce Tiresais to 1 Samuel 17:46.

Soon come.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:18:25 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1352 on: February 27, 2014, 01:54:23 AM »
Tiresais, I am not going to go back and forth with this topic.

Let them be who they are.

Just do not expect me to support this nonesense.

It would be interesting to see all the people who supports this that it comes in their lives in some form. Then you would sing a different song.

The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] - Numbers 14:18 (Generational Curses).

You'll quote the anti-gay text, but when it prices slaves to be sold you're all silent - you're a hypocrite. Tell me what's the conversion rate on a shekle these days Pastor? How much does the bible think I should demand for my slaves?

I have a number of gay friends - it affects me not, and I support their right to love whomever they love. Your passage condones punishing the child for the sins of the father - thanks for making my point about its immorality for me.

When saying so ... hmmm :thinking: ... Pastor Stuart, help me out nah ... introduce Tiresais to 1 Samuel 17:46.

Soon come.

So your response is to threaten me with violence? Stay classy. Sticking to the "love thy neighbour, love thy enemy" eh? Bigots always get violent when their prejudice is challenged.

In terms of if my kid turns out gay, then fine - they have to live their own life, and whilst I'd prefer them to pass on my genes (selfish genes en all), that ultimately isn't my call. I'd want them to be happy and as a parent I want the best for them. Homosexuality isn't a choice - the evidence so far is that you're born homosexual or heterosexual. I suppose you must know this on some level - you don't find men attractive right? Can you choose to find men attractive?

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1353 on: February 27, 2014, 06:32:50 AM »
Tiresais, I am not going to go back and forth with this topic.

Let them be who they are.

Just do not expect me to support this nonesense.

It would be interesting to see all the people who supports this that it comes in their lives in some form. Then you would sing a different song.

The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty], visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] - Numbers 14:18 (Generational Curses).

You'll quote the anti-gay text, but when it prices slaves to be sold you're all silent - you're a hypocrite. Tell me what's the conversion rate on a shekle these days Pastor? How much does the bible think I should demand for my slaves?

I have a number of gay friends - it affects me not, and I support their right to love whomever they love. Your passage condones punishing the child for the sins of the father - thanks for making my point about its immorality for me.

When saying so ... hmmm :thinking: ... Pastor Stuart, help me out nah ... introduce Tiresais to 1 Samuel 17:46.

Soon come.

So your response is to threaten me with violence? Stay classy. Sticking to the "love thy neighbour, love thy enemy" eh? Bigots always get violent when their prejudice is challenged.



Having read Asylum's posts for the last few years, I think he was poking at Pastor Stuart. Not you. Not that the articulate Asylum need my help that is.
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Offline Sam

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1354 on: February 27, 2014, 08:51:01 AM »
Great work by the Ugandan president !!!

Maybe not the death sentence but I agree to not support this Gay shit, that blights your country.

Man and Woman can reproduce, gays can't. Its simple, even animals knows this.

Yuh ever see a father lion f00cking another father lion.

Humans is disgusting.

We living in sodom and gomorrah.

A big hard stones man acting like a blasted female stabbing only shit.

Shit stabbers.

The sheer level of stupidity is overwhelming here, lets wade through shit creek

Quote
that blights your country.


Why?

Quote
Man and Woman can reproduce, gays can't.

Are those who are infertile also morally inferior in your opinion? What about those who choose not to reproduce?

Quote
Its simple, even animals knows this.

Yuh ever see a father lion f00cking another father lion.

Erm.. Yes. Homosexuality is widely observed in the animal kingdom, why don't you educate yourself - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Lions

Quote
We living in sodom and gomorrah.

Really? Sodom's major crime seems to be more inhospitality than homosexuality, although this is all interpretation. - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/sodom.html

Quote
A big hard stones man acting like a blasted female stabbing only shit.

Shit stabbers.

You're against anal sex in totality I imagine? Any particular reason? Also, are you so insecure about your own masculinity that the thought of dudes sexing up other dudes sets off alarms in your head?

I recommend you challenge your own opinions, check out this video about debunking the top 5 arguments against Gay Marriage, for example- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmFLe_CmLBw .

Your positions are at best bigoted, because you are actively discriminating against people who have no choice over whom they find sexually attractive. Given your comments I'll go ahead and infer that you're a Christian, in which case you might find it interesting to note that Jesus is not attributed to have said anything about homosexuality in the bible - clearly it wasn't a topic interesting or important enough for him to be quoted on.

Instead, I suggest some other bible verses for you to dwell on;

Exodus 23:4-5 -If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.  If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Exodus 23:9 and Deuteronomy 10:19- Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 25:7 - Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God.
Psalms 34:13-14 - Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
Psalms 38:7 - Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
Proverbs 10:12 - "Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins."

F00ck off yuh bullaman !!!!

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Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1355 on: February 27, 2014, 11:43:46 AM »
I don't think it's as simple as being born gay or straight. I have seen gay men who persistently harrass straight men to the point where they only stop when they are threatened or some sort of action whether violent or not is taken against them. Again, this is Trinidad gay means something completely different to what it means in Europe and the Us. I have never met a gay man in Trinidad. They are all hidden. I have met people I suspect to be gay and upon getting to know them some more they slowly cross the line and begin advancing on your personal space. It sickens me. I would like for us to develop a culture of "coming out" because it is a community that I want nothing to do with outside of having to work with them in a professional capacity. I don't want to go to a club and hang out with some gay guy or something. As ignorant as it may sound I'm just not interested in having them as a friend or even an acquaintance.  That's my preference.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 11:45:39 AM by congo »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1356 on: February 27, 2014, 12:32:46 PM »
F00ck off yuh bullaman !!!!

Ah, clearly your positions are well thought out and not total bigotry and childish ignorance. Touché Sam, touché

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1357 on: February 27, 2014, 12:42:14 PM »
I don't think it's as simple as being born gay or straight. I have seen gay men who persistently harrass straight men to the point where they only stop when they are threatened or some sort of action whether violent or not is taken against them. Again, this is Trinidad gay means something completely different to what it means in Europe and the Us. I have never met a gay man in Trinidad. They are all hidden. I have met people I suspect to be gay and upon getting to know them some more they slowly cross the line and begin advancing on your personal space. It sickens me. I would like for us to develop a culture of "coming out" because it is a community that I want nothing to do with outside of having to work with them in a professional capacity. I don't want to go to a club and hang out with some gay guy or something. As ignorant as it may sound I'm just not interested in having them as a friend or even an acquaintance.  That's my preference.

You directly contradict yourself here - you say you've never seen a gay man in Trinidad, then talk about how you've seen gay men "harass" people. You have some terrible misconceptions that seem common amongst homophobic groups - I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but you've specifically claimed you are afraid and don't like homosexuals, which is the definition of Homophobia.

At the end of the day they're just like me and you, except that they find men attractive instead of women - there's no other defining trait of a gay person. You get 'Queens' who are the equivalent of macho-guys - people who sadly define themselves solely by their sexuality, and you get normal people for whom sexuality is not the over-riding defining characteristic of themselves. You say they're hidden - why? Because they will face a terrible backlash for something they had no choice over - we all have no choice over who we find attractive.

Homosexuality is not defined by the act itself - psychological studies find that a much larger percentage of the population have had a gay 'experience' than who recognise they are gay, suggesting that sexuality is not a binary concept but something that changes over time (again, this is not a choice element, just like your preference in women might change over time but isn't a choice you make).

Maybe ask yourself why you think that way? Have you actually seen gay people act that way, or is it an influence of the media and culture, who tell you think this way? Prejudice is a product of society - people reproduce discrimination through generations and it's not until it's challenge that you, say, realise that there's no difference between black, white or any other ethnicity.

Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1358 on: February 27, 2014, 12:54:01 PM »
I don't think it's as simple as being born gay or straight. I have seen gay men who persistently harrass straight men to the point where they only stop when they are threatened or some sort of action whether violent or not is taken against them. Again, this is Trinidad gay means something completely different to what it means in Europe and the Us. I have never met a gay man in Trinidad. They are all hidden. I have met people I suspect to be gay and upon getting to know them some more they slowly cross the line and begin advancing on your personal space. It sickens me. I would like for us to develop a culture of "coming out" because it is a community that I want nothing to do with outside of having to work with them in a professional capacity. I don't want to go to a club and hang out with some gay guy or something. As ignorant as it may sound I'm just not interested in having them as a friend or even an acquaintance.  That's my preference.

You directly contradict yourself here - you say you've never seen a gay man in Trinidad, then talk about how you've seen gay men "harass" people. You have some terrible misconceptions that seem common amongst homophobic groups - I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but you've specifically claimed you are afraid and don't like homosexuals, which is the definition of Homophobia.

At the end of the day they're just like me and you, except that they find men attractive instead of women - there's no other defining trait of a gay person. You get 'Queens' who are the equivalent of macho-guys - people who sadly define themselves solely by their sexuality, and you get normal people for whom sexuality is not the over-riding defining characteristic of themselves. You say they're hidden - why? Because they will face a terrible backlash for something they had no choice over - we all have no choice over who we find attractive.

Homosexuality is not defined by the act itself - psychological studies find that a much larger percentage of the population have had a gay 'experience' than who recognise they are gay, suggesting that sexuality is not a binary concept but something that changes over time (again, this is not a choice element, just like your preference in women might change over time but isn't a choice you make).

Maybe ask yourself why you think that way? Have you actually seen gay people act that way, or is it an influence of the media and culture, who tell you think this way? Prejudice is a product of society - people reproduce discrimination through generations and it's not until it's challenge that you, say, realise that there's no difference between black, white or any other ethnicity.

I feel that way based on personal experience. Bro I have also lived and worked overseas in other countries where gay people are out and about in public and they are proud of it. I don't hate gay people. I hate what gay represents in Trinidad. That whole hidden part is what I am getting at. I have never seen a gay man in Trinidad. It have people who we suspect to be gay but when they are asked they deny it to the death and then they carry on and try to get close to you and then slowly begin crossing boundaries to the point where they have to be violently threatened. That has happened to a lot of people I know. These gay men literally go about trying to convert straight men or even get them in a compromising position. It's really sick. I am all for giving them rights and all that but on a personal level I don't want them near me. Mind you that is trini gay men. The ones I have met overseas go about their lives and live very productive lives. The ones in trini appear very hidden, they tend to get close to the women in society and influence them etc. I know this one once told a guy that in order for him to get to a particular women he would have to go through him as in literally. That's disgusting.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1359 on: February 27, 2014, 01:20:20 PM »
As I've said, you can't 'convert' people to homosexuality because it's not a choice, and it's not that they're trying to convert anyone. When you have to fly under the radar or face massive public backlash and discrimination, being 'hidden' is essential to continue having an otherwise normal life. Possibly you've found yourself in areas that are considered 'gay friendly' where men will be more forward about their sexuality, or more likely you're dramatically mis-interpreting their behaviour, which is understandable if you have no experience of gay people and have no gay friends.

Your stories certainly don't represent the norm, it's like if my only experience of Trinidadians was carnival! Clearly I'd have a drastically different opinion, and certainly wouldn't guess it's a religious country!

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1360 on: February 27, 2014, 01:21:18 PM »
Congo, exactly where you does lime where yuh get this unwanted sexual attention from men?

Unwanted sexual advances is to be decried, whether it is  man-on-woman, man-on-man, woman-on- woman or woman-on-man or any other gender-on-gender. It is unwanted and is therefore sexual harassment. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation. That has nothing to do with homosexuality. Sexual predators come in all orientations and no one group has a monopoly.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Toppa

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1361 on: February 27, 2014, 01:26:27 PM »
@ Terisais -

The Bible does not promote prejudice against people. However, its view of homosexual acts is clear.
“You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.
As part of the Mosaic Law, this prohibition was one of many moral laws given specifically to the nation of Israel. Even so, the commandment expresses God’s view of homosexual acts, whether by Jews or non-Jews, when it says: “It is a detestable thing.” The nations around Israel practiced homosexuality, incest, adultery, and other acts prohibited by the Law. Therefore, God viewed those nations as unclean. (Leviticus 18:24, 25)

God's view of homosexuality did not change in the Christian era:

“God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene.”—Romans 1:26, 27

1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that it is God's will that people of all sorts be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

And in 1 Corinthian 6:9-11, we see what sorts of acts will not inherit God's Kingdom (Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners) but then it goes on to say "And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God".

Anyway, all that to say that God's standards have not changed with regards to sexual immorality, etc.
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Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1362 on: February 27, 2014, 02:05:22 PM »
Congo, exactly where you does lime where yuh get this unwanted sexual attention from men?

Unwanted sexual advances is to be decried, whether it is  man-on-woman, man-on-man, woman-on- woman or woman-on-man or any other gender-on-gender. It is unwanted and is therefore sexual harassment. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation. That has nothing to do with homosexuality. Sexual predators come in all orientations and no one group has a monopoly.



I don't lime in any particular place. They are all over. Now overseas if you don't want to interact with gay people you avoid certain bars etc. They have basically segregated themselves from society to protect their community and enjoy each other's company. In Trinidad it's not like that.

I think our culture plays a significant part in how gay people conduct themselves. That has never happened to me when I was overseas and interacting with gay people. I think in Tnt they know that there exists a stigma so the person would hardly report it. We also encourage a culture that loves to promote baccanal and confusion so I think they community thrives on that as well. Like I keep saying, no one ever comes out...everyone is just a suspect. The scary thing is that they are all around us and constantly pretending to be straight or "hiding" their gayness. I find that to be unacceptable. I hate that on the low stuff. I should have a choice whether I want to socialize with you or not. This friend of mine had a friend who was his work colleague and ended up being his bedrin. Both of them used to pump all over, that was his riding partner. One day the boy basically got him drunk and came onto him when they were alone. You would never suspect that this guy is gay. Men would be tracking women and all that. Relll hollywood business. That what pisses me off.That was a mad scene. The man never suspected that he was gay. Imagine that. That is scary

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1363 on: February 27, 2014, 02:10:26 PM »
Hi Toppa, you and I have been here before. Not sure if I ever shared this paper with you on Romans 1-18-32

Romans 1:18-32 amidst the gay-debate: Interpretative options
Jeremy Punt, Department of Old & New Testament, University of Stellenbosch
http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/view/238/172


CONCLUSIONS
The nature of Paul’s argument in Romans 1 suggests that it is in a certain way an elaborated version of the argument found in 1 Thessalonians (1 Th 4:3-6 in particular), and cannot simply be cited in arguing against homosexuality today. Paul is concerned about the purity of followers of Christ from Gentile stock and they should thus avoid the sexual practices of Gentiles who do not know God, inevitably practices in which people are wronged (Stowers 1994:97). Paul did not, however, provide specific directives for either lesbigays who know God or lesbigays in committed relationships that do not exploit anyone (cf Johnson 2006:135), because such identities were not readily available options in the first century CE.

A sexual ethic informed by perspectives from the New Testament challenges the assumptions which make reproductive sex into a norm. For example, when Jesus or Paul talks about marriage, neither of them insists upon procreation “as a rational or functional justification” (Williams 2002:6). Sexual orientation or “constitutional” or “core” homosexuality was not considered options in ancient thinking about sexuality; neither were committed, caring same-sex relationships seriously contemplated in a context where homoerotic acts were necessarily conflated with “immorality, debauchery and licentiousness” (Johnson 2006:136).

In short, Paul’s argument in Romans 1 cannot be applied directly to what modern people know about homosexuality, as much as his instructions about hair lengths and dress codes are also considered inappropriate for direct appropriation today.



Anyway, the point I want to make in this thread is that while your position on the Bible, Homosexuality and God's view on homosexuality, is clear, there are also other differing positions. And many of these are from people who consider themselves to be religious scholars and believers. 
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1364 on: February 27, 2014, 02:13:21 PM »
@ Terisais -

The Bible does not promote prejudice against people. However, its view of homosexual acts is clear.
“You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.
As part of the Mosaic Law, this prohibition was one of many moral laws given specifically to the nation of Israel. Even so, the commandment expresses God’s view of homosexual acts, whether by Jews or non-Jews, when it says: “It is a detestable thing.” The nations around Israel practiced homosexuality, incest, adultery, and other acts prohibited by the Law. Therefore, God viewed those nations as unclean. (Leviticus 18:24, 25)

God's view of homosexuality did not change in the Christian era:

“God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene.”—Romans 1:26, 27

1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that it is God's will that people of all sorts be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

And in 1 Corinthian 6:9-11, we see what sorts of acts will not inherit God's Kingdom (Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners) but then it goes on to say "And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God".

Anyway, all that to say that God's standards have not changed with regards to sexual immorality, etc.

The problem is that the bible has not changed its opinions on a number of actions you would consider immoral. For example, Slavery is justified in both the Old and New Testament, but presumably you don't believe this to be morally acceptable?

The problem is that you pick and choose your morality - you choose to use the bible to justify your prejudice against homosexuals, but clearly don't accept other moral teachings within the book. Consequently, it appears that you are either morally arbitrary within an understand of morality derived from the bible, or simply picking and choosing which prejudiced opinions to hold and flimsily backing that up with passages from the bible.

Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1365 on: February 27, 2014, 02:20:26 PM »
Congo, exactly where you does lime where yuh get this unwanted sexual attention from men?

Unwanted sexual advances is to be decried, whether it is  man-on-woman, man-on-man, woman-on- woman or woman-on-man or any other gender-on-gender. It is unwanted and is therefore sexual harassment. This has nothing to do with sexual orientation. That has nothing to do with homosexuality. Sexual predators come in all orientations and no one group has a monopoly.



I don't lime in any particular place. They are all over. Now overseas if you don't want to interact with gay people you avoid certain bars etc. They have basically segregated themselves from society to protect their community and enjoy each other's company. In Trinidad it's not like that.

I think our culture plays a significant part in how gay people conduct themselves. That has never happened to me when I was overseas and interacting with gay people. I think in Tnt they know that there exists a stigma so the person would hardly report it. We also encourage a culture that loves to promote baccanal and confusion so I think they community thrives on that as well. Like I keep saying, no one ever comes out...everyone is just a suspect. The scary thing is that they are all around us and constantly pretending to be straight or "hiding" their gayness. I find that to be unacceptable. I hate that on the low stuff. I should have a choice whether I want to socialize with you or not. This friend of mine had a friend who was his work colleague and ended up being his bedrin. Both of them used to pump all over, that was his riding partner. One day the boy basically got him drunk and came onto him when they were alone. You would never suspect that this guy is gay. Men would be tracking women and all that. Relll hollywood business. That what pisses me off.That was a mad scene. The man never suspected that he was gay. Imagine that. That is scary

this is all very confusing. I live in North America and the gay people I know have not segregated themselves from society. In fact far from it. They belong and interact with the community like anybody else.

As far as Trinidad goes, ever wonder why "they" hide. Maybe it is because of the societal pressures that prevent them from living normal, unfettered lives?

Anyway, you as well, have certainly made your position clear. But what you have described is certainly not my experience.
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Offline pecan

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1366 on: February 27, 2014, 02:22:43 PM »
@ Terisais -




Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Toppa explained her rationale to me once. It is Mosaic law.
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Offline congo

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1367 on: February 27, 2014, 02:37:22 PM »
Yeah but I am sure there are places that have gay bars etc so yeah straight people wouldn't go to a gay bar etc. I think they are gay for convenience here. The gay community is hidden here but they carry a lot of weight and look out for each other in terms of jobs etc. It's such a weird situation here. I think our age difference would also mean a different experience in terms of interacting with the community. I think that discrimination talk is mess. It's not like we are hanging them in the square or putting tires around their necks filled with gasoline. That discrimination talk is mess. The gay people we suspect are all influential and affluent members of society but then again that's the circle that I roll in so I wouldn't be able to speak for the lil ghetto boy who's gay and any sort of stuff he may be experiencing in his circle. It's so funny, that no one ever actually comes out as gay in tnt but the minute someone speaks against gay community etc people are always quick to defend and it's usually women especially. I would like to see more confirmed and vocal members of the gay community. Stop hiding behind NGOs etc come out and show us who you are. These people love to be gay for convenience.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 02:41:08 PM by congo »

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1368 on: February 27, 2014, 02:40:27 PM »
Hi Toppa, you and I have been here before. Not sure if I ever shared this paper with you on Romans 1-18-32

Romans 1:18-32 amidst the gay-debate: Interpretative options
Jeremy Punt, Department of Old & New Testament, University of Stellenbosch
http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/view/238/172


CONCLUSIONS
The nature of Paul’s argument in Romans 1 suggests that it is in a certain way an elaborated version of the argument found in 1 Thessalonians (1 Th 4:3-6 in particular), and cannot simply be cited in arguing against homosexuality today. Paul is concerned about the purity of followers of Christ from Gentile stock and they should thus avoid the sexual practices of Gentiles who do not know God, inevitably practices in which people are wronged (Stowers 1994:97). Paul did not, however, provide specific directives for either lesbigays who know God or lesbigays in committed relationships that do not exploit anyone (cf Johnson 2006:135), because such identities were not readily available options in the first century CE.

A sexual ethic informed by perspectives from the New Testament challenges the assumptions which make reproductive sex into a norm. For example, when Jesus or Paul talks about marriage, neither of them insists upon procreation “as a rational or functional justification” (Williams 2002:6). Sexual orientation or “constitutional” or “core” homosexuality was not considered options in ancient thinking about sexuality; neither were committed, caring same-sex relationships seriously contemplated in a context where homoerotic acts were necessarily conflated with “immorality, debauchery and licentiousness” (Johnson 2006:136).

In short, Paul’s argument in Romans 1 cannot be applied directly to what modern people know about homosexuality, as much as his instructions about hair lengths and dress codes are also considered inappropriate for direct appropriation today.



Anyway, the point I want to make in this thread is that while your position on the Bible, Homosexuality and God's view on homosexuality, is clear, there are also other differing positions. And many of these are from people who consider themselves to be religious scholars and believers. 


Hi Pecan, I'm not interested in essays written by whoever that was written by, with whatever agenda they had - I'm only interested in what God's word says. And yes, you and I have been here before, that's why my comment was directed at Terisais.
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1369 on: February 27, 2014, 02:41:03 PM »
@ Terisais -




Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Toppa explained her rationale to me once. It is Mosaic law.

Please do not lie. I have never said that.
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1370 on: February 27, 2014, 02:42:37 PM »
Yeah but I am sure there are places that have gay bars etc so yeah straight people wouldn't go to a gay bar etc. I think they are gay for convenience here. The gay community is hidden here but they carry a lot of weight and look out for each other in terms of jobs etc. It's such a weird situation here. I think our age difference would also mean a different experience in terms of interacting with the community. I think that discrimination talk is mess. It's not like we are hanging them in the square or putting tires around their necks filled with gasoline. That discrimination talk is mess. The gay people we suspect are all influential and affluent members of society but then again that's the circle that I roll in so I wouldn't be able to speak for the lil ghetto boy who's gay and any sort of stuff he may be experiencing in his circle. It's so funny, that no one ever actually comes out as gay in tnt but the minute someone speaks against gay community etc people are always quick to defend and it's usually women especially. I would like to see more confirmed and vocal members of the gay community. Stop hiding behind NGOs etc come out and show us who you are.

You assert they have a lot of influence, then talk about how you don't discriminate. Look your flickering between paranoia here, coming up with some anti-gay consipiracy, and then saying you don't discriminate. Look at this board - change the word "Gay" or "homosexual" with "Black" or "Christian" and tell me you wouldn't consider that discrimination. Again they don't come out as boht me and pecan have noted - if you do you face despicable comments like Sam's or Stuarts - if every time you showed your face in public you were greeted with some racist slur you too might not spend much time in public.

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1371 on: February 27, 2014, 02:44:53 PM »
@ Terisais -

The Bible does not promote prejudice against people. However, its view of homosexual acts is clear.
“You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.
As part of the Mosaic Law, this prohibition was one of many moral laws given specifically to the nation of Israel. Even so, the commandment expresses God’s view of homosexual acts, whether by Jews or non-Jews, when it says: “It is a detestable thing.” The nations around Israel practiced homosexuality, incest, adultery, and other acts prohibited by the Law. Therefore, God viewed those nations as unclean. (Leviticus 18:24, 25)

God's view of homosexuality did not change in the Christian era:

“God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene.”—Romans 1:26, 27

1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that it is God's will that people of all sorts be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

And in 1 Corinthian 6:9-11, we see what sorts of acts will not inherit God's Kingdom (Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners) but then it goes on to say "And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God".

Anyway, all that to say that God's standards have not changed with regards to sexual immorality, etc.

The problem is that the bible has not changed its opinions on a number of actions you would consider immoral. For example, Slavery is justified in both the Old and New Testament, but presumably you don't believe this to be morally acceptable?

The problem is that you pick and choose your morality - you choose to use the bible to justify your prejudice against homosexuals, but clearly don't accept other moral teachings within the book. Consequently, it appears that you are either morally arbitrary within an understand of morality derived from the bible, or simply picking and choosing which prejudiced opinions to hold and flimsily backing that up with passages from the bible.

Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Slavery has never been justified in the Bible. Rather Ecclesiastes 8:9 says that "man has dominated man to his injury."
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1372 on: February 27, 2014, 02:45:33 PM »
To bring this thread back to the title and to quote a Priest that I know:

"Regardless of whether you stand in favour or in opposition to the hot button issues in the Church today – whether you agree with the blessing of same sex marriage or whether you don’t believe its God’s will – there is no argument that can justify seeking to somehow purify God’s world through hatred and persecution. God invites us to join with Him to transform His world through compassion, through love, and through daily intentional action."

I have signed this petition to support freedom. Even if you stand against homosexuality, this is not the way to treat fellow beings.

Uganda's infamous anti-gay bill has been signed into law by President Museveni. Our friends in Uganda are calling for the whole world to make noise to not let this awful law go unnoticed.

If thousands and thousands of us speak out right now we can get world leaders, major corporations, and religious institutions with sway in Uganda to use their influence as our friends on the ground challenge this bill in court.

Sign now to show Uganda's leaders that we will not stay silent while innocent people are being attacked and locked up forever.

Will you join me and sign the petition against the law now?

www.allout.org/kill-the-bill

https://www.allout.org/en/actions/kill-the-bill


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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1373 on: February 27, 2014, 02:47:57 PM »
@ Terisais -




Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Toppa explained her rationale to me once. It is Mosaic law.

Please do not lie. I have never said that.

Sorry Toppa, that is what I took away from the debate we had before. If that is not the case, I sincerely apologize.
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1374 on: February 27, 2014, 02:48:12 PM »
Man is level gays in T&T. Dem eh no hiding. Them men does stroll though town on an afternoon normel. I remember when the Magistrate tell Alister Ventour to come back to court dress as a man and put him out the court cause he show up wearing are halter back and are pillazo pants.
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1375 on: February 27, 2014, 02:52:34 PM »
@ Terisais -

The Bible does not promote prejudice against people. However, its view of homosexual acts is clear.
“You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.”—Leviticus 18:22.
As part of the Mosaic Law, this prohibition was one of many moral laws given specifically to the nation of Israel. Even so, the commandment expresses God’s view of homosexual acts, whether by Jews or non-Jews, when it says: “It is a detestable thing.” The nations around Israel practiced homosexuality, incest, adultery, and other acts prohibited by the Law. Therefore, God viewed those nations as unclean. (Leviticus 18:24, 25)

God's view of homosexuality did not change in the Christian era:

“God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene.”—Romans 1:26, 27

1 Timothy 2:4 tells us that it is God's will that people of all sorts be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth.

And in 1 Corinthian 6:9-11, we see what sorts of acts will not inherit God's Kingdom (Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners) but then it goes on to say "And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God".

Anyway, all that to say that God's standards have not changed with regards to sexual immorality, etc.

The problem is that the bible has not changed its opinions on a number of actions you would consider immoral. For example, Slavery is justified in both the Old and New Testament, but presumably you don't believe this to be morally acceptable?

The problem is that you pick and choose your morality - you choose to use the bible to justify your prejudice against homosexuals, but clearly don't accept other moral teachings within the book. Consequently, it appears that you are either morally arbitrary within an understand of morality derived from the bible, or simply picking and choosing which prejudiced opinions to hold and flimsily backing that up with passages from the bible.

Or maybe you have some rationale for why you accept some passages and reject others in the bible?

Slavery has never been justified in the Bible. Rather Ecclesiastes 8:9 says that "man has dominated man to his injury."

Sir you have clearly not read your bible;

Quote
Leviticus 25:44-46 - As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Quote
Ephesians 6:5 - Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ

Quote
Titus 2:9-10 - Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Tell me again how the bible doesn't condone slavery. Seriously, people pick and choose from the bible - biblical justification for slavery was a major topic of the anti-abolitionist movement. So you pick the verses that allow you to discriminate against the 'other', the 'unknown' that you are uncomfortable with, whilst conveniently ignoring the passages that condone horrific acts and immorality. Sometimes this is caused by you not reading the bible, and instead listening only to your pastor, so I encourage you to actually read the bible and see some of the crazy stuff in it.

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1376 on: February 27, 2014, 03:12:37 PM »
Man is level gays in T&T. Dem eh no hiding. Them men does stroll though town on an afternoon normel. I remember when the Magistrate tell Alister Ventour to come back to court dress as a man and put him out the court cause he show up wearing are halter back and are pillazo pants.

There are also a lot of on the low ones. The ones higher up are really on the low. They are also very influential and look out for each other. It's a very close knit community. It's the down low ones I really can't stand. I don't mind if you are public with it and your position is clear that way I could make a decision to not socialize with you or be anywhere near you outside of a professional capacity. I'm a professional, if we working together we could work together I have no problem with that but if you want to catch a drink after work then I'm sorry that's where we need to go our separate ways. I have no problem with gay people or their right to lead productive lives. All I ask is that you keep that sort of behaviour away from me. Let me live in peace also. What so wrong with that? This is all about preference.

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1377 on: February 27, 2014, 03:18:35 PM »
Man is level gays in T&T. Dem eh no hiding. Them men does stroll though town on an afternoon normel. I remember when the Magistrate tell Alister Ventour to come back to court dress as a man and put him out the court cause he show up wearing are halter back and are pillazo pants.

There are also a lot of on the low ones. The ones higher up are really on the low. They are also very influential and look out for each other. It's a very close knit community. It's the down low ones I really can't stand. I don't mind if you are public with it and your position is clear that way I could make a decision to not socialize with you or be anywhere near you outside of a professional capacity. I'm a professional, if we working together we could work together I have no problem with that but if you want to catch a drink after work then I'm sorry that's where we need to go our separate ways. I have no problem with gay people or their right to lead productive lives. All I ask is that you keep that sort of behaviour away from me. Let me live in peace also. What so wrong with that? This is all about preference.

Change the word "Gay" for "Blacks" or "Muslims" to understand why your position is discriminatory. The same type of attitudes have greeted a number of different sects of society. Again you keep claiming things about a community you specifically say you haven't seen or experienced in Trinidad - you have no evidence and no reason for this opinion - it's irrational at best.

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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1378 on: February 27, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »
Homosexuality threatens the arts, fuels crime—Clarke
Published: Tuesday, February 25, 2014
Yvonne Baboolal
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2014-02-25/homosexuality-threatens-arts-fuels-crime%E2%80%94clarke

Homosexuality is not only threatening the arts but is used to indoctrinate gang members, says artist LeRoy Clarke. The T&T Guardian asked Clarke to elaborate on the comment he made last week at his book launch which shocked and outraged some of his fellow artists, members of the gay community and others. In a phone interview yesterday, Clarke related homosexuality to the increase in crime, saying young men are usually indoctrinated into gangs with homosexuality and because of the violation of their manhood use the gun as a symbol of their masculinity.
 
He added: “It is brought about by power bases that manipulate the principles that hold our heritage for their own advantage. “Something is happening with the gender paradigm today. We had guidelines where we looked at certain types of conduct as abominations. We took it from the scriptures.” The Bible, he added, was one of those and verses clearly refer to homosexuality, men with men and women with women, as “unnatural” and an abomination. “Today, the word abomination does not have the same tone. People indulge abominations, accede to them,” Clarke lamented. “At 73, I can say the world is no longer mine,” he said.
 
Asked exactly what he meant by saying homosexuality was threatening the arts, Clarke said with the exception of the sailor and maybe the midnight robber, there were no longer any definitely male costumes in Carnival, not even in portrayals of the devil. “An effeminating power has taken over the costumes and even the rhythm of the music. Carnival is no longer male and female.

“This is a very serious matter. We are dealing with a problem that is threatening our heritage. Fifty, 60 years ago what is happening now was not prevalent. I grew up in Gonzales.

“The conversion is threatening identity. It had made it into a ‘oneish’ kind of place,” he added. Clarke said he had been hearing rumours about the reactions to his comment, expected to be misunderstood and did not expect the comment to be popular. “But,” he said, “I don’t feel threatened. I believe in God.”
 
Asked which god he believed in, since he was an Orisha elder, Clarke replied: “I started off as Anglican. I am an Orisha elder now. “But I have gone even beyond that. I do believe in a God I don’t know. All I know is I have God-yearning and it is to that I yield.” Clarke said he was not waging war on anybody but was speaking about something that made people uncomfortable but others were afraid to talk about it. He said homosexuality was threatening not only the arts but the dream of becoming a society. There was a need to have discussions like these without animosity, he said. “Why is it we are afraid to speak? I come out (sic) and suddenly I am a bad fella. “Somebody needs to point out that something is definitely off-balance,” he added.
 
‘Retrograde thinking’
Writer Monique Roffey said she had been deeply affected by Clarke’s comment. She said: “It is not what I would call progressive. It shows a lack of connection with modern thinking. if you consider the UK where gays were granted rights to marry. “It shows lack of awareness, compassion, humanity. This is such a big error of judgment. “It is very surprising because it is a very intolerant thing to say about gay people, about a so-called minority who fought long and hard for equal rights. This feels really retrograde.” The Bible, she pointed out, is 3,000 years old.

On her own sexuality, Roffey said: “I am not lesbian. I am queer.”  Her erotic life is described in the award-winning Trinidad-born British writer’s memoir, With the Kisses of his Mouth.

In it she tells of a sexual odyssey she embarked upon after a dramatic breakup, which led her “into the worlds of casual-sex dating sites, western neo-tantra, Native American neo-shamanic sacred sex practices... the famous swingers’ resort of Cap D’Agde, and to a cave in the south of France where Mary Magdalene is said to have escaped and prayed for 30 years after the death of Christ. “Some light BDSM (bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism), some sex magick, some five-rhythms dancing and a couple of Bronze Age Stone circles also feature.”

Roffey said, as reflected in her memoir, she struggled to find a place for herself in the world outside the mainstream, challenging the heterosexual norm. “If you are different to mainstream, you face constant criticism. This is the kind of comment associated with the conservative mainstream. There is no space on the planet for that kind of thinking,” she added.
 
‘Discrimination is colonial’
If Clarke was speaking on behalf of artists, he was not speaking for artist/writer Christopher Cozier, who has been internationally recognised with a 2014 Prince Claus Fund Award. “It is deeply ironic that he has built his career on conversations about recognising the value of people of African descent and discriminatory colonial laws. “Laws discriminating against gays are also colonial,” Cozier said. Nazi Germany under Hitler discriminated against Jews, the physically challenged and gays, he said. And so did the apartheid system in South Africa under white rule.
Cozier said he was not gay but knew a lot of gay people and young people reading Clarke’s comments may wonder what were their prospects in a place like T&T. “It’s sad when he and people like Pastor Cuffie say the same thing,” he said. Told the Bible denounced homosexuality, Cozier replied: “I am not into that kind of thing.”
 
‘Attention-seeking babblings’
Founder/director of the Bocas Lit Fest Marina Salandy-Brown said: “What nonsense. The ruination of the arts here is the lack of a proper arts policy for the country that has been articulated and communicated to the people, the lack of planning, infrastructure and public education.  “The poverty of the arts discourse is at the heart of the problem and these attention-seeking babblings from someone who should know better are just proof of that.” Carnival bandleader and designer Brian MacFarlane said: “It is unfortunate that Mr Clarke has chosen to make this comment. I have always had great respect for him and his work. “People from all walks of life, be it colour, creed, race or sexual orientation, have contributed to the development of culture in all its forms in T&T and continue to do so.” Actor and 3Canal member Wendell Manwarren said he had no comment to make on anything Leroy Clarke said.
Leroy Clarke clarifies his statement about Homosexuality and males being raped being possibly linked to Gang Crime.

Leroy Clarke on Homosexuality, Gender, and Crime: Richie Maitland Responds
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kdudXodx8pg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/kdudXodx8pg</a>

Master Artist Cheif LeRoy Clarke discusses his controversial comments on homosexuality, gender, and crime with TV6 Morning Edition host Martin Blades. Attorney for CAISO (Coalition Advocating for Inclusion of Sexual Orientation) Richie Maitland then responds to Clarke's comments.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:24:15 PM by Socapro »
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Re: Ugandan President Museveni Signs bill criminalising homosexuality
« Reply #1379 on: February 27, 2014, 03:24:58 PM »
Tiresais, maybe you should do better research. The original-language words rendered “slave” or “servant” are not limited in their application to persons owned by others. The Hebrew word ʽe′vedh can refer to persons owned by fellowmen. (Ge 12:16; Ex 20:17) Or the term can designate subjects of a king (2Sa 11:21; 2Ch 10:7), subjugated peoples who paid tribute (2Sa 8:2, 6), and persons in royal service, including cupbearers, bakers, seamen, military officers, advisers, and the like, whether owned by fellowmen or not (Ge 40:20; 1Sa 29:3; 1Ki 9:27; 2Ch 8:18; 9:10; 32:9). In respectful address, a Hebrew, instead of using the first person pronoun, would at times speak of himself as a servant (ʽe′vedh) of the one to whom he was talking. (Ge 33:5, 14; 42:10, 11, 13; 1Sa 20:7, 8) ʽE′vedh was used in referring to servants, or worshipers, of God generally (1Ki 8:36; 2Ki 10:23) and, more specifically, to special representatives of God, such as Moses.

Another example of the use of the word 'slave' is found in Matthew 24:45 which talks about the Faithful and Discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics. Do you know what that refers to?
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