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Author Topic: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.  (Read 7567 times)

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Offline Touches

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Forumites,

For the newcomers, let me bring up an old topic and let us use the same scenario and rephrase it with our friendlies and three upcoming world cup games.

Once one can answer these seven  questions in the affirmative then victory is usually the outcome.

When this was first done we were LAST in the Hex and Beenhaker just came on board. We took a good hard look at our opponents and many of us using this analysis had a fair idea of the outcome of our games. I always knew we would come 4th and I predicted this even before the HEX started.

However let me refresh your memories  and start some lively debate once again.

Original Seven Searching questions Click here


For any of you who have read Sun Tzu's art of war, the outcome of a battle can usually be anticipated after answering the following questions. If we look at the next few World Cup games and put TT into this framework we may get an idea as to where we may stand or rather fall.

Now let us not forget that this battle we are dealing with lasts for 90min and the ball is round so on any given day surprises can happen.

Unto our lil debate..........

The Art of War is governed by five constant factors: Moral Law, Heaven, Earth, the Commander and Method and Discipline.

Moral Law causes people to be in constant accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.(Lets Call our Ruler Jack)

Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat times and seasons.( we have 2 home games, 3 away remaining)

Earth comprises distances great and small, danger and security, open ground and narrow passes, the chance of life and death( Lets use this as travel time to game i.e 3 days, fan support, etc.)

The Commander stands for the virtues of Wisdom, sincerity,benevolence courage and strictness( Leo Beenhaker)

Method and discipline, marshalling of the Army in proper subdivisions(fwd/mid/def),gradations of rank among officers(local/foreign based/starter/bench) maintenence of roads by which supplies reach the army and the control of military expenditure(fitness/injuries/match fees etc)

These five heads should be familiar to every general . He who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.

Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:

SEVEN SEARCHING QUESTIONS

1) Which of two soverigns is imbued with moral law?

2) Which of the two generals has most ability?

3) With whom lie the advantages derived from heaven and earth?

4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced?

5) Which Army is the stronger?

6) On which side are officers and men most highly trained?

7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?

By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.


Now I have looked at questions 1-7 in this light with regard to TT...

Question 1) Jack Warner......N/A no moral law here.

Question 2) If we use Beenhaker as our General we right up there with the best. If we use Dwight Yorke  we can match them with the qualities he has as a leader.

Question 3) NA..........we are all playing on neutral ground (Germany) and all our players are accustommed to Euro temperatures and conditions.

Question 4) We have improved in this dept, but I still think our opponents are ahead of us in this dept. With failure or poor performance our opponents players lose their places on the team with TT we have a little more leeway and a poor performance does not result in much punishment.

Question 5) We are the weakest Army in both equipment and depth.

Question 6) Again we are the weakest

Question 7) Unsure about this question because I am not sure how our players receive their wages and bonuses if any. The motivational factor of money is not very high in our team. I could be wrong on this and how I look at the question I stand corrected on its interpretation.


Now apart from these seven questions let me quote some excerpts from this book that will help TT in its battle. Read and digest how you would like. Put in your two cents. Just think of the battle as the field and our 11 TT players and please remember our strengths and weaknesses keeping in mind those of the opponent as well.

Elemental Tactics

All warfare is based on deception. Hence when able to attack, we must seem unable, when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away we must make the enemy believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Fein disorder, and crush him.

If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him.

If he is superiour in strength , evade him. If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak so that he may grow arrogant.

If he is inactive, give him no rest. I his forces are united, seprate them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected. These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand.

The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: How much more do no calculation at all pave the way to defeat! It is by attention to this point that I can see who is likely to win or lose.



3 ways a Ruler can bring misfortune on an army

1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This amounts to hobblng the army.

2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness among the soldiers.

3) By employing the officers of his army without discriminination, through ignorance of the military principle of adapting action to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.

But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from other fuedal princes. This is simply equivalent in results to bringing anarchy into the army and flinging victory away.



5 essentials for victory 


He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight

He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces

He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all ranks

He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.

He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the soverign.

Victory lies in the knowledge of those five points.



To be continued....


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Offline SHOTTA

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2006, 07:32:49 AM »
touches meh boy
yuh realll inciteful

let no one doubt ur commitment at allll
now that we have mastered the language we can wield it as we may

truetrini

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2006, 07:36:58 AM »
Excellent Touches.

But when the sovereign does not adhere to many of Sun Tzu's  Laws of power, then we have no foundation on which to build.  Ask dmiral Yamamoto of the Japanese army during the second wworld war and he cn attest to this truth.

A wonderful strategist and leader he failed as he knew he would because he lcked leaders who were honest and he lacked the industrial might of the USA.

Can our General overcome the ineptitude of his sovereign?

Offline andre samuel

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2006, 08:11:29 AM »
1. Jack Warner is soverign head, but moral law? somehow i feel that this question does not apply to any of the teams.

2. Our General, Leo Benhakker, has the greatest ability of all 4 generals since he has to be the most battle hardned of them all.

3. I think that although we are playing in neutral ground, we still have an advantage over paraguay since most of our players ply their trade in Europe. We are, however way behind England and Sweden in this regard.

4. Our discipline has improved and can be our biggest weapon at the world cup since discipline is a thing not expected from caribbean sportsmen (we are always described as laid back). We can suprise many teams if we play to a plan and stick to it.

5. We are definitely the weakest of the 4 teams.  Hey are my ratings of the teams.  England - 9.5
                 Sweden - 8.75
                 Paraguay - 7.25
                 Trinidad - 6.75

6. Our men are not as highly trained as the other teams in the group, but our strength does not only lie in the ability of our men, but also the tactical strength of our general, leo benhakker, and the ability of our head field soldier, dwight yorke, to carry out his instructions.

7. I am tempted to say that we are not consistant in reward but that would only reflect policital bias, but i have to say that we are consistant in reward since Jack Warner paid the players.  Not sure of the other teams, although i know that the English FA was harsh on Rio Ferdinand when they had to be.

Come on posters, give your analysis!!

ah love it!!
                 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 11:26:05 AM by andre samuel »
Andre Samuel, who controls all the rights to the phrase "ah love it!!"

Offline NYtriniwhiteboy..

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2006, 10:36:04 AM »
1..moral law? i don't really think this applies too much here

2. Agreed Leo is the general with the best ability and i truly think he is the best coach in the group

3. I think that we don't really have any kind of advantage in germany because players in Sweden and England have played at the level before and know what to expect. However this can also work for us as the big stage might inspire some of weaker players to play beyond their abilities.

4. Discipline has always been improving with our team since Leo took over and i expect we will be like clockwork by June without hopefully losing our flair. Which is why i think the dutch coach goes well with our players. Individual flair still allowed but discipline is the main thing

5. Have to say we are the weakest team on paper but that should inspire us to raise our game and surprise the others.

6. we do not have the most highly trained. we have a couple individuals such as Yorke and Latapy who definitely are as highly trained as any other team's players and can use their experience to help the other members of our team with inspired leadership. With Leo calling the shots from the side he can still use his tactics to beat these more highly trained teams

7. Really not too sure what to say about this question.  So i will have to leave it.
Back in Trini...

Offline injunchile

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2006, 02:13:54 PM »
Moral Law and Jack Warner come on Touches , you can do better than that? There is also a third force ask Dog about that ? This team thus far has played by Faith and not sight.
 Dont forget the David / Goliath scenario. The Hebrews saw Goliath and said - OH God Oh God he so big we cant win- David saw the same Giant and said Oh God Oh God I cant Miss. Well we know the rest of the story.
 Passion and the Moral Force and all things are possible- That is why we are the Warriors.

Offline Augi

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2006, 05:44:37 PM »
For the most part I agree with you Touches, except for your analysis of the first constant factor governing the Art of War, Moral Law.I would like to make some changes if you permit me.I want to say that Moral Law causes people/players  to be in constant accord with their ruler/leader/captain , so that they will follow him regardless of their lives/livelyhood, undismayed by any danger/injury.Since the ruler in my view is equivalent to the captain, lets call their ruler Dwight Yorke and not Jack Warner.

Therefore if we are to answer the first searching question,"Which of two sovereigns is imbued with moral law?" we have to look at both the leadership qualities of Dwight Yorke and the teams belief in Dwight Yorke ability to lead them.


TrinInfinite

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2006, 10:16:30 PM »
very good touches, however one point missed in this topic is moral restoration and the affects of a leader which is unchallenged.

Offline Touches

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2006, 06:15:01 AM »
True trini, I like that point I will do some research and get back to you on this.

Augi, point taken I am open to this and it can be interpreted this way.

DCtrini and Andre I like the thought process

Infinite could you please expand, continue the thought process........No mention was made in the book about this. I think the great author and scholar did not see the need for the topics you alluded to mainly because in the selection of a leader morals should be included......and for people in these positions they are unwavering and they stand by their convictions. No one changes them.  I do not understand your point on a leader which is unchallenged.....unchallenged by who his opponent?

Lets continue.................

I cannot help but reflect on TT and its football fortunes and the comparison between Bertille and Beenhaker as the commanders and tacticians. Why when TT wins, a victory by us is regarded as a surprise, and why do we not dispose properly of teams of lesser ability. ........take for example Dominica.....a clearly inferior team and yet they draw with us but Haiti who jest arrive could rest goals like rain on them.


Here is some more enlightenment for you today:

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. if you know yourself, but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Check this point......this is why the Big teams in football remain big teams.

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

To secure ourselves agaiinst defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certian of defeating the enemy.

Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.

Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.

Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking a superabundance of strength.

The general who is skilled in defence, in effect, hides in the most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the top most heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves; on the other a victory that is complete.

This here is TT's problem

To see victory only when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.

Neither is it the acme of excellence if you conquer and the whole empire says "well done"

To lift an autumn leaf is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

Hence his victories bring neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Avoidance of mistakes establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.


To Avoid Defeat

Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist seeks battle after his plans indicate that victory is possible under them, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights without skillful planning and expects victory to come without planning..........(This has been TT's problem with previous coaches)

The consumate leader cultivates the moral law, and strictly adheres to method and discipline.Thus it is in his power to control success......(Remeber Beenies comment after the Iceland game)

In respect to military method we have First: measurement; second, estimation of quantity,third calculation, fourth; balancing of chances,fifth, victory.

Measurement owes its existence to earth; estimation of quantity to measurment; calculation to estimation of quantity; balancing of chances to calculation and victory to the balancing of chances.

{ The first of these terms would seem to be terrain appreciation, from which an estimate of the enemy's strength can be formed, and calculations of relative strength made on data thus obtained; we are thus led to a general comparison of the enemy's chances with our own; if the latter turn the scale, then victory ensues}

A victorious army as opposed to a routed one, is as a pound's weight placed in the scale against a single grain. The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting of pent up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep.


Heights my fellow forumites.........but also so true and applicable.

To be continued............
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 06:29:24 AM by Touches »


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Offline Girl Warrior

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2006, 11:00:52 AM »
Touches, I'm impressed. I've read the Sun Tzu's The Art of War; The Art of War for Small Business and I'm about to start The Art of Deception, Intro to Critical Thinking. I think you should write and publish The Art of War for T&T Football, Touches edition.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 11:05:09 AM by Girl Warrior »
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Offline Cantona007

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 12:20:59 PM »
To secure ourselves agaiinst defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certian of defeating the enemy.

Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.

Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.

Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking a superabundance of strength.

The general who is skilled in defence, in effect, hides in the most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the top most heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves; on the other a victory that is complete.


Before I comment on the seven questions (and whatever corollaries ensue), some comments about the above.
The first point about the opportunity of defeating the enemy comes from the enemy itself, is especially true in our case;  I have always believed this.
A cursory examination of the Seven Questions where they pertain to resource constraints, leads to an (almost) inescapble conclusion that we are could be out of our depth, for the most part.
The counter to this, however is looking to the enemy to provide US with the means to defeat him, and this is drawn further from the other tenets of the Seven Questions (the ability to make the enemy believe in our lack of strength, using an enemy's distemper against him, using an enemy's arrogance/overconfidence against him etc.)
Standing on the defensive on the surface would indicate lack of offensive strength, except where is is tactically advantageous to do so (for example, having the ability hold defensive positions with fewer resources than your enemy, while forcing him to expend offensive potential to his detriment, while exposing his offensive nous prior to the counter attack).
From a football point of view, the comparisons are not difficult; the challenge is whether or not we can effectively execute such a strategy against a superior attacking force (read England, in particular): One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.
This is where other aspects of the Seven Questions come into play: Leadership, Moral Law etc.
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TrinInfinite

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2006, 12:54:58 PM »
True trini, I like that point I will do some research and get back to you on this.

Augi, point taken I am open to this and it can be interpreted this way.

DCtrini and Andre I like the thought process

Infinite could you please expand, continue the thought process........No mention was made in the book about this. I think the great author and scholar did not see the need for the topics you alluded to mainly because in the selection of a leader morals should be included......and for people in these positions they are unwavering and they stand by their convictions. No one changes them.  I do not understand your point on a leader which is unchallenged.....unchallenged by who his opponent?

Lets continue.................

I cannot help but reflect on TT and its football fortunes and the comparison between Bertille and Beenhaker as the commanders and tacticians. Why when TT wins, a victory by us is regarded as a surprise, and why do we not dispose properly of teams of lesser ability. ........take for example Dominica.....a clearly inferior team and yet they draw with us but Haiti who jest arrive could rest goals like rain on them.


Here is some more enlightenment for you today:

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. if you know yourself, but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. if you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Check this point......this is why the Big teams in football remain big teams.

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

To secure ourselves agaiinst defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat, but cannot make certian of defeating the enemy.

Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it.

Security against defeat implies defensive tactics; ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.

Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient strength; attacking a superabundance of strength.

The general who is skilled in defence, in effect, hides in the most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the top most heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves; on the other a victory that is complete.

This here is TT's problem

To see victory only when it is within the ken of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.

Neither is it the acme of excellence if you conquer and the whole empire says "well done"

To lift an autumn leaf is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

Hence his victories bring neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage. He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Avoidance of mistakes establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.


To Avoid Defeat

Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist seeks battle after his plans indicate that victory is possible under them, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights without skillful planning and expects victory to come without planning..........(This has been TT's problem with previous coaches)

The consumate leader cultivates the moral law, and strictly adheres to method and discipline.Thus it is in his power to control success......(Remeber Beenies comment after the Iceland game)

In respect to military method we have First: measurement; second, estimation of quantity,third calculation, fourth; balancing of chances,fifth, victory.

Measurement owes its existence to earth; estimation of quantity to measurment; calculation to estimation of quantity; balancing of chances to calculation and victory to the balancing of chances.

{ The first of these terms would seem to be terrain appreciation, from which an estimate of the enemy's strength can be formed, and calculations of relative strength made on data thus obtained; we are thus led to a general comparison of the enemy's chances with our own; if the latter turn the scale, then victory ensues}

A victorious army as opposed to a routed one, is as a pound's weight placed in the scale against a single grain. The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting of pent up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep.


Heights my fellow forumites.........but also so true and applicable.

To be continued............

moreso unchallenged by his own self convictions which may result in terrible deicisions, succession is always inevitable amongst great leaders, moral restoration should be touched bc not all leaders are morally right and may sway to immoral actions throughout their tenure, therfore moral restoration is needed, however in examining the troops that follow, their moral convictions determine how a leader performs on the battle field. the mere belief  in delussions of grandeur and superiority, hence superiority complexes can destroy any leader if he is not devout to spiritual conviction and also reality and reality of the situation and awareness that in order to conquer, respect for the opponent is apart of your moral conviction and apart of victory.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 01:01:14 PM by TrinInfinite »

Offline Touches

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2006, 01:38:32 PM »
Alright Ti lemme see how well yuh think out yuh ting here.

I just curious as to your thinking process, doe get offended......but I just like to follow a logic and thought process when in conversation nah. Especially since your topic not in the book and you come up with a piece of "original thought"

Quote
moreso unchallenged by his own self convictions which may result in terrible deicisions,
.................I doe understand this line, why must one challenge his or her own self convictions. How is a decision terrible if it has nothing to be compared to.

Quote
succession is always inevitable amongst great leaders, moral restoration should be touched bc not all leaders are morally right and may sway to immoral actions throughout their tenure
,............Not so, there has been succession of jackarses as well...watch the primeministers we have in TT.(yes this is my opinion)  :devil:

Morality TI is a subjective thing, so it is difficult to judge what is moral or right and wrong, consider the following definitions of moral.

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

n.
The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

So it is a objective thing nah........so by extension if one does not know, or acknowledge something is wrong, how can it be restored. Also to what state shall it be restored if there is nothing to compare itself to. Note the concept of relativity.


Hence this line you typed.......
Quote
therfore moral restoration is needed
, ........ I doe see it holding true.

Quote
however in examining the troops that follow, their moral convictions determine how a leader performs on the battle field
..........I disagree, one can seperate morals and getting a job done. A soldiers/players orders are to follow instructions they are not supposed to question if what they are doing is right or wrong.

Quote
The mere belief  in delussions of grandeur and superiority, hence superiority complexes can destroy any leader if he is not devout to spiritual conviction and also reality and reality of the situation and awareness that in order to conquer, respect for the opponent is apart of your moral conviction and apart of victory
...............I don't understand what you are trying to say. Could you please rephrase it simply or use and example to highlight your point.

Thanks.

But at the end of it how does this internal moral restoration of a leader help determine the outcome of a battle and its tactics?.........this is what the discussion is primarily about what can be looked at and worked on to predict an outcome.

Lastly TI....people doe like Jose Morinho, they say he arrogant, full of himself etc. He has all of what you described in the above paragraph he have a superiority complex and maybe by his ambitions he may have delusions of grandure....but considering he is doing his job.....the man winning EPL... and he prepares his team adequately. Would you hate on him ... Or would you not sit back and admire his tactical brilliance at achieving an outcome.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 01:42:36 PM by Touches »


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TrinInfinite

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2006, 04:27:20 PM »
Alright Ti lemme see how well yuh think out yuh ting here.

I just curious as to your thinking process, doe get offended......but I just like to follow a logic and thought process when in conversation nah. Especially since your topic not in the book and you come up with a piece of "original thought"

Quote
moreso unchallenged by his own self convictions which may result in terrible deicisions,
.................I doe understand this line, why must one challenge his or her own self convictions. How is a decision terrible if it has nothing to be compared to.

Quote
succession is always inevitable amongst great leaders, moral restoration should be touched bc not all leaders are morally right and may sway to immoral actions throughout their tenure
,............Not so, there has been succession of jackarses as well...watch the primeministers we have in TT.(yes this is my opinion)  :devil:

Morality TI is a subjective thing, so it is difficult to judge what is moral or right and wrong, consider the following definitions of moral.

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

n.
The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

So it is a objective thing nah........so by extension if one does not know, or acknowledge something is wrong, how can it be restored. Also to what state shall it be restored if there is nothing to compare itself to. Note the concept of relativity.


Hence this line you typed.......
Quote
therfore moral restoration is needed
, ........ I doe see it holding true.

Quote
however in examining the troops that follow, their moral convictions determine how a leader performs on the battle field
..........I disagree, one can seperate morals and getting a job done. A soldiers/players orders are to follow instructions they are not supposed to question if what they are doing is right or wrong.

Quote
The mere belief in delussions of grandeur and superiority, hence superiority complexes can destroy any leader if he is not devout to spiritual conviction and also reality and reality of the situation and awareness that in order to conquer, respect for the opponent is apart of your moral conviction and apart of victory
...............I don't understand what you are trying to say. Could you please rephrase it simply or use and example to highlight your point.

Thanks.

But at the end of it how does this internal moral restoration of a leader help determine the outcome of a battle and its tactics?.........this is what the discussion is primarily about what can be looked at and worked on to predict an outcome.

Lastly TI....people doe like Jose Morinho, they say he arrogant, full of himself etc. He has all of what you described in the above paragraph he have a superiority complex and maybe by his ambitions he may have delusions of grandure....but considering he is doing his job.....the man winning EPL... and he prepares his team adequately. Would you hate on him ... Or would you not sit back and admire his tactical brilliance at achieving an outcome.





when referring to unchallenged by his own self convictions, it means that for example his soldiers would not challenge his authority, but as a leader he led his men astray with self convicted actions which are detrimental to them and eventually himself, simply because his decisions are self centered, egocentric actions which bear no fruit;

in regards to succession, not every great leader is succeeded by another great leader, this happens seldom, however the rein of a great leader will inevtiably come to an end, which always leaves room for immoral actions by the successor or the followers who are left without a fortifying voice.

however you say morality is subjective and to a certain extent that is true, but I am a christian and look at morality from a different perspective than most, however it doesn't make it right or wrong, it is right to me and the question should be asked, in order to understand Sun Tzu which i have read before, what is his religious convictions? and what morals does he derive from them, if he has a religion. If not, what is his base of morality and it will be better understood his viewpoint.

when i refer to moral restoration it takes me back to what u addressed as leaders in tt are jackasses, this may have some merit, therefore you understand me when i say moral restoration is needed, or do you. ;D 

and in regards to jose, sir alex was also as arrogant and he fell from grace where he once stood above his opponents, the thing about arrogance is you never realize that eventual downfall will happen, many emperors that fell to their knees were arrogant but never humbled themselves to conquer, jose's time will come just as sir alex's time came, all empires fall, all great leaders fall.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 04:31:23 PM by TrinInfinite »

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2006, 02:32:37 AM »
Hi all,

I was in deep sleep as these days I am an extreemly busy man with warrior nation business. As i slept, I strated to dream of this very post, and had these thoughts that i think i had to share. So here i am, and here goes.

An added entity to this whole equation, i.e. Original Seven Searching Question is Who is the True Patriot? because in ANY war, having patriots is need inorder to execute orders given no matter how extreem. These extreem orders are fastest concieved by or bought into by so called "True Patriots". By now you may be asking your selves "Where is he going with this ?"

Let me define my idea of what a "True Patriot" is.

Any person who is willing to do any action weather Right or "Morally" wrong to aid in the advancement of his country.


Aditionally I will define my idea of Morality as this is Highly subjective

Morality is a core set of rules and values that are COMMONLY subscribed to by a particular society.


The society in this case is the T&T Squad and its supporters.

Given these ideas and definitions, WHO is the most Patriotic Person , be it administration, players, coach, or fans. Who do you thing is Most likely to breach moral code inorder or advance his country/ society?

Keep in mind that many great wars are fought loong and hard by "Patriots". The ones who will DO anything to ensure victory for thier country .! ;) Think about it fellahs.. Of all the entities, who is most patriotic. ?

p.s. Touches thank you, you have encouraged me to re-read such a great book that sits on my table right here.

I will also suggest to you guys, The Da Vinci Code, Angels and Deamons, Think and Grow rich.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 02:38:10 AM by oconnorg »
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Offline oconnorg

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2006, 06:13:44 AM »
Alright Ti lemme see how well yuh think out yuh ting here.

I just curious as to your thinking process, doe get offended......but I just like to follow a logic and thought process when in conversation nah. Especially since your topic not in the book and you come up with a piece of "original thought"

Quote
moreso unchallenged by his own self convictions which may result in terrible deicisions,
.................I doe understand this line, why must one challenge his or her own self convictions. How is a decision terrible if it has nothing to be compared to.

Quote
succession is always inevitable amongst great leaders, moral restoration should be touched bc not all leaders are morally right and may sway to immoral actions throughout their tenure
,............Not so, there has been succession of jackarses as well...watch the primeministers we have in TT.(yes this is my opinion)  :devil:

Morality TI is a subjective thing, so it is difficult to judge what is moral or right and wrong, consider the following definitions of moral.

Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

n.
The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.
A concisely expressed precept or general truth; a maxim.
morals Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong: a person of loose morals; a decline in the public morals.

So it is a objective thing nah........so by extension if one does not know, or acknowledge something is wrong, how can it be restored. Also to what state shall it be restored if there is nothing to compare itself to. Note the concept of relativity.


Hence this line you typed.......
Quote
therfore moral restoration is needed
, ........ I doe see it holding true.

Quote
however in examining the troops that follow, their moral convictions determine how a leader performs on the battle field
..........I disagree, one can seperate morals and getting a job done. A soldiers/players orders are to follow instructions they are not supposed to question if what they are doing is right or wrong.

Quote
The mere belief in delussions of grandeur and superiority, hence superiority complexes can destroy any leader if he is not devout to spiritual conviction and also reality and reality of the situation and awareness that in order to conquer, respect for the opponent is apart of your moral conviction and apart of victory
...............I don't understand what you are trying to say. Could you please rephrase it simply or use and example to highlight your point.

Thanks.

But at the end of it how does this internal moral restoration of a leader help determine the outcome of a battle and its tactics?.........this is what the discussion is primarily about what can be looked at and worked on to predict an outcome.

Lastly TI....people doe like Jose Morinho, they say he arrogant, full of himself etc. He has all of what you described in the above paragraph he have a superiority complex and maybe by his ambitions he may have delusions of grandure....but considering he is doing his job.....the man winning EPL... and he prepares his team adequately. Would you hate on him ... Or would you not sit back and admire his tactical brilliance at achieving an outcome.





when referring to unchallenged by his own self convictions, it means that for example his soldiers would not challenge his authority, but as a leader he led his men astray with self convicted actions which are detrimental to them and eventually himself, simply because his decisions are self centered, egocentric actions which bear no fruit;

in regards to succession, not every great leader is succeeded by another great leader, this happens seldom, however the rein of a great leader will inevtiably come to an end, which always leaves room for immoral actions by the successor or the followers who are left without a fortifying voice.

however you say morality is subjective and to a certain extent that is true, but I am a christian and look at morality from a different perspective than most, however it doesn't make it right or wrong, it is right to me and the question should be asked, in order to understand Sun Tzu which i have read before, what is his religious convictions? and what morals does he derive from them, if he has a religion. If not, what is his base of morality and it will be better understood his viewpoint.

when i refer to moral restoration it takes me back to what u addressed as leaders in tt are jackasses, this may have some merit, therefore you understand me when i say moral restoration is needed, or do you. ;D 

and in regards to jose, sir alex was also as arrogant and he fell from grace where he once stood above his opponents, the thing about arrogance is you never realize that eventual downfall will happen, many emperors that fell to their knees were arrogant but never humbled themselves to conquer, jose's time will come just as sir alex's time came, all empires fall, all great leaders fall.

A leaders' "Moral" standing has no beearing on the effectiveness of his leadership. No matter what god he worships, no matter his religios persuasion, his effectiveness in conveying instructions, and tactical know how is what is being examined and measured. he could be the "worst" or men, he could be arrogant, this does not change the effectiveness of his leadership. What is being measured is outcome.

When you guys say that certain leaders succumbed to thier arrogance i.e sir alex and others, does it neccesarily mean that they were poor leaders because of thier arrogance, or does it mean that they were simply defeated by another great leader you executed his plans well and was able to have his subjects (players) execute the plan?.  Does it mean that the arrogance of  sir alex cause his down fall, or does it mean he did not have ALL the necessary tools to ensure continued victory..?.
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2006, 06:45:15 AM »
Occonorg I did not say anyone succumbed to arrogance. I just used Jose as an example to show TI that ones personality does not make him an ineffective leader or tactician. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Also why must one be patriotic to advance a country. Also I dont think that being patriotic is necessary to enable someone to achive greatness or win.

Oconnorg what is necessary is conviction or motivation......what motivates you to do whatever it takes against all odds.

Patriotism as you alluded to is just one form of motivation, some may feel more affinity than others to it, but there are other factors that can be just as or even more successful. Greed is a big one, personal fulfillment, sense of achievement, Looking after your children, spouse etc are all factors that can make one go over the edge. Rage, envy and most importantly revenge and bad mind as well.

Lets use an example.........If a person does something horrific to you and your family. you dont need patriotism to take a drastic course of action and be motivated.

Also I think patriotism is "Love for country"......not doing something right or wrong to advance it. .....there is a big difference between the two.

Keep it coming Oconnor, Di Vinci is a best book but I find the Angels and Demons lil weak.....I reach the part where they find the second cardinal and it not really stimulating meh interest in comparison to the di vinci.


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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2006, 07:12:05 AM »
Occonorg I did not say anyone succumbed to arrogance. I just used Jose as an example to show TI that ones personality does not make him an ineffective leader or tactician. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

Also why must one be patriotic to advance a country. Also I dont think that being patriotic is necessary to enable someone to achive greatness or win.

Oconnorg what is necessary is conviction or motivation......what motivates you to do whatever it takes against all odds.

Patriotism as you alluded to is just one form of motivation, some may feel more affinity than others to it, but there are other factors that can be just as or even more successful. Greed is a big one, personal fulfillment, sense of achievement, Looking after your children, spouse etc are all factors that can make one go over the edge. Rage, envy and most importantly revenge and bad mind as well.

Lets use an example.........If a person does something horrific to you and your family. you dont need patriotism to take a drastic course of action and be motivated.

Also I think patriotism is "Love for country"......not doing something right or wrong to advance it. .....there is a big difference between the two.

Keep it coming Oconnor, Di Vinci is a best book but I find the Angels and Demons lil weak.....I reach the part where they find the second cardinal and it not really stimulating meh interest in comparison to the di vinci.

Nah I know you en say he succumbed to arrogance.. That was for TI. I agree with your points in this regard.

It may not be necessary to be a patriot to advance a country, however what is the motivating factor then.? Is it love of country?. Then by your definition, " Love for country " = Patriotism. I agree with this definition as well. But I think it is important to note that a Patriot will MOST times do WHAT ever it takes in the name of his country , be it good, or morally wrong..

My question "Who Are the patriots" ? was mean to be an Additional Searching Question and not meant to superceed the others sorry for the mixup there..

But again my question to you guys is, based on my definition, Who Are the patriots?
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2006, 07:27:26 AM »


Also why must one be patriotic to advance a country. Also I dont think that being patriotic is necessary to enable someone to achive greatness or win.

Oconnorg what is necessary is conviction or motivation......what motivates you to do whatever it takes against all odds.

Patriotism as you alluded to is just one form of motivation, some may feel more affinity than others to it, but there are other factors that can be just as or even more successful. Greed is a big one, personal fulfillment, sense of achievement, Looking after your children, spouse etc are all factors that can make one go over the edge. Rage, envy and most importantly revenge and bad mind as well.

Lets use an example.........If a person does something horrific to you and your family. you dont need patriotism to take a drastic course of action and be motivated.

Also I think patriotism is "Love for country"......not doing something right or wrong to advance it. .....there is a big difference between the two.

Keep it coming Oconnor, Di Vinci is a best book but I find the Angels and Demons lil weak.....I reach the part where they find the second cardinal and it not really stimulating meh interest in comparison to the di vinci.

Ah was goin to stay out of allyuh big brain thread

But yuh confuse mih ah little with that line that I put in bold

I think that patriotism is a motivator to advance your countries cause whether it be political, militarily or athletic

To  simply state "I love my country" is not in and of itself patriotic.
 However if someone comes along and challenges that statement e.g "there is nothing great or good about your country", an actual patriot is then motivated to point out or highlight why his/her country is great"

This mindset can be carried over to sport, as an e.g american athletes chanting of "USA, USA" before or after events. Or hitler's belief of the superiority of German athletes in the 40s
My point is whether the patriot believes his or her country's people or simply training methods are better/superior
Therein lies the extra 'spark' to push harder or do better

The above analogy can be applied to war as well, in that, if one believes his/her country militarily superior there is no fear in being the aggressor in order to vanquish one's opponents.

The issue may become a negative when the person goes from being patriotic to jingoistic, in my opinion.

Anyway, dais my 2 cents...allyuh handle allyuh stories
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2006, 08:47:55 AM »
Touches hear this ..

What are we assuming to be Victory?. A win vs us and another team,  getting to the 2nd round ?
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2006, 09:50:17 AM »
Well for all intents and purposes Victory will be TT having scored more goals than each opponent they face in the three prelim WC games.

Thus second rounds is a given.

I know for some victory in this WC is beating England......and we could lorse the rest.

I want TT to win they games yes......... but if we dont win a game...............I just want us to Look and Appear that we know how to play this game, that we deserve to be among the 32 best teams in the world and that we do not get embarrassed.

31 Teams will exit the tournament as losers....its how yuh lose is what counts.

Once we can leave that tournament with our heads high, I happy with that.




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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2006, 10:08:54 AM »
Well for all intents and purposes Victory will be TT having scored more goals than each opponent they face in the three prelim WC games.

Thus second rounds is a given.

I know for some victory in this WC is beating England......and we could lorse the rest.

I want TT to win they games yes......... but if we dont win a game...............I just want us to Look and Appear that we know how to play this game, that we deserve to be among the 32 best teams in the world and that we do not get embarrassed.

31 Teams will exit the tournament as losers....its how yuh lose is what counts.

Once we can leave that tournament with our heads high, I happy with that.




now touches moral belief does determine how strong and successful a leader is, it also determines longevity bc God humbles a ruler who thinks of himself as a God, it is shown in history that many rulers have been humbled, divine intervention cannot be left out of the equation no matter the cost. At all angles we find one determinant in this debacle whne relating to tt, their will power and their moral convictions before going into the match make them mentally the force to reckon with, our leader is humble but determined and faith is the only word i can use to describe the aura around the players b4 they take the field of battle.

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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2006, 10:18:35 AM »
This stuff deep boy Touches oh gorm ah nearly get lost. I have faith in out general and his ability I firmly believe that our faith lies in his hands not in the ability of out guys

But touches tell me this yea the ground is neutral where does the power of the crowd lie in determining the outcomes of the battle

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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2006, 10:25:38 AM »
Well for all intents and purposes Victory will be TT having scored more goals than each opponent they face in the three prelim WC games.

Thus second rounds is a given.

I know for some victory in this WC is beating England......and we could lorse the rest.

I want TT to win they games yes......... but if we dont win a game...............I just want us to Look and Appear that we know how to play this game, that we deserve to be among the 32 best teams in the world and that we do not get embarrassed.

31 Teams will exit the tournament as losers....its how yuh lose is what counts.

Once we can leave that tournament with our heads high, I happy with that.




now touches moral belief does determine how strong and successful a leader is, it also determines longevity bc God humbles a ruler who thinks of himself as a God, it is shown in history that many rulers have been humbled, divine intervention cannot be left out of the equation no matter the cost. At all angles we find one determinant in this debacle whne relating to tt, their will power and their moral convictions before going into the match make them mentally the force to reckon with, our leader is humble but determined and faith is the only word i can use to describe the aura around the players b4 they take the field of battle.

TI , I disagree, moral beliefs have no bearing on tactical know how.! they are seperate and apart.!
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2006, 11:14:33 AM »
I happen to have the Art of War as a audio Clip to any interested.
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2006, 12:25:56 PM »
Ti we straying off the point..........but I dont agree with your moral beliefs is what constitutes a successful,strong leader or his length of tenure.

If a person rules by love or fear, right or wrong once he is fulfilling his targets and objectives then he is successful.....you cant deny that.

I also want to stay away from the God and religion aspect because it is a sensitive topic, people could get offended, they have no right answer and well I jest like to stay away from it because people have different convictions and beliefs.

I still ent understand the point about TT and us having a mental force to be reckoned with.


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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2006, 12:35:33 PM »
Well for all intents and purposes Victory will be TT having scored more goals than each opponent they face in the three prelim WC games.

Thus second rounds is a given.

I know for some victory in this WC is beating England......and we could lorse the rest.

I want TT to win they games yes......... but if we dont win a game...............I just want us to Look and Appear that we know how to play this game, that we deserve to be among the 32 best teams in the world and that we do not get embarrassed.

31 Teams will exit the tournament as losers....its how yuh lose is what counts.

Once we can leave that tournament with our heads high, I happy with that.




now touches moral belief does determine how strong and successful a leader is, it also determines longevity bc God humbles a ruler who thinks of himself as a God, it is shown in history that many rulers have been humbled, divine intervention cannot be left out of the equation no matter the cost. At all angles we find one determinant in this debacle whne relating to tt, their will power and their moral convictions before going into the match make them mentally the force to reckon with, our leader is humble but determined and faith is the only word i can use to describe the aura around the players b4 they take the field of battle.

can you please explain that highlighted part for me...yuh lose meh dey. :-\
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2006, 02:06:32 PM »
Pasdah beatz,

Pass tru a lil book store and pick it up, it is worth reading my friend but unto your question......yes the book have a section on that too.

Quote
where does the power of the crowd lie in determining the outcomes of the battle

Pasdah Beatz check the heights here and be enlightened.

This is included in the section, Gongs, Drums, banners and Flags.

Forumites take note..look what happens when we show up at games with we thunder stix.

The book of Army management says:

On the field of battle the spoken word does not carry far enough: Hence the institution of gongs and drums.......(In the Warriors case, pan and Iron)

Gongs and drums, banners and flags are means whereby the ears and eyes of the host may be focussed on one particular point.

The host thus forming a single united body, it is impossible either for the brave to advance alone, or for the cowardly to retreat alone.

In night fighting then make much use of signal fires and drums, and in fighting by day of flags and banners as a means of guiding your men through their ears and eyes.

A whole army may be robbed of its spirit; a commander in cheif may be robbed of his presence of mind.



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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2006, 03:21:51 PM »
Men waxing Philosophically boy. Seeing as I am no philosppher I will not even try to go there.

 I agree that if the troops believe in the leader that they will be stronger. hence why in many historical battles when the leader fell the war was lost.

Right now I don't think this team have a problem with belief in Dwight or Beenie. I think they lacked commitment to the cause. I can understand Oconnorg position on Patriots. I think Russel Latapy is a patriot. If we losing he will still fight on. Dwight is a patriot. He too will fight the seeming unsurmountable odds. The rest of the team show some fight too, but I not sure if they are patriots.

Any body remember a game between Man U and Bayern. 2 goals in injury time. Does our team have that kinda confidnece, guts and determination? They have shown that they are willing to fight back against Mexico but will they go the full 90 + mins?
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Re: Seven Searching Questions Revisited. ..The Art of War; Sun Tzu.
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2009, 09:00:37 PM »
Art of War Revisited Part 3

Forumites...Sun Tzu ent bounce up Pacho yet.

Lewwe revisit for the Hex...

YUh know Pacho is a flickkin Boss :devil:

a) All warfare is based on deception.

b) Now the general who wins a battle makes many
calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought.
The general who loses a battle makes but few
calculations beforehand.  Thus do many calculations
lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat:
how much more no calculation at all!  It is by attention
to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.

c) Hence the saying:  If you know the enemy
    and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
    hundred battles.  If you know yourself but not the enemy,
    for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
    If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
    succumb in every battle.

d) Sun Tzu said:  The good fighters of old first put
    themselves beyond the possibility of defeat
, and then
    waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

  To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
    own hands,
but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
    is provided by the enemy himself.

e) Security against defeat implies defensive tactics;
    ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.

Now really this is what happen to our trusted Coach Pacho
  ;D

To see victory only when it is within the ken
of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.

Neither is it the acme of excellence if you fight
and conquer and the whole Empire says, "Well done!"

To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength;
to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight;
to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.

What the ancients called a clever fighter is
one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

Hence his victories bring him neither reputation
for wisdom nor credit for courage.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:26:28 PM by Touches »


A for apple, B for Bat, C for yuhself!