ARSENAL FORWARD

[Mango Chow!]

It really says alot about the society we live in and people's concept of the spirit of competition, that people are so up in arms about uefa's decision to punish divers and not so up in arms about eduardo's (instantaneous) decision to deceive.  I don't even understand what the arguments are all about.  I could even accept some debate if eduardo had the deception down right to draaaaaag his trailing leg in a most unnatural motion creating contact with the 'keeper and then fling himself dramatically, rolling on the ground as if shot, to then spring up and take the penalty............but there wasn't even any f*&^%ing CONTACT!!!!!!!!  How is that not deserving of justice?!?!?!   


  Bake & Shark, I know yuh woulda bring up dat "penalty" against allyuh from two seasons ago, but yuh cyah be lookin' to beat dat dead horse to death and not be willing to accept that allyuh boy stevie-g is just as guilty a player of the deceptive behavior as any high profile player.   

Wait did I say divers  should not be punished. I simply asked the question that if all diving regardless on the games influence, will be punished with a ban. I also asked what would be the outcome should the referee make a poor decision the other way. ie give a diver a red car and it turns out he did not dive. Please follow the thread.


   My initial comments weren't about your post specifically as it was about the general reaction to uefa's handling of the matter.







As for Eduardo rolling around on the ground after the foul. Which video are you watching  My video shows him laying on hs belly and looking back at the Ref


   Nah, Observer, read my post again, Bredda.  I wasn't saying or implying that that is what he did.  I merely acknowledged that I could have accepted some level of debate over uefa's actions IF there was even contact but I was only describing the dramatic way in which "contact" is dramatized by the deceitful players.  make special note of that all important word "if" in my post.      

[Mango Chow!]

whatever, during the game that punishment is a yellow card
a two match suspension afterwards is an emotionally driven reaction
i really think the finger should be pointed at the refferee and not the player
Eduardo played himself into a NON goalscoring position and lost control of the ball
ergo goal kick or corner
linesman was consulted
based on the existing rules there should be no banning or returbution for his falling
a yellow card i would accept but a ban? they better follow up that ban on every single percieved  "dive"

maybe just maybe UEFA opened a case to subsequently close it as a formality to shut the rest of you donkeys up

If all eduardo did was "fall" then why was he laying on his stomach, looking to the referee for a penalty to be awarded instead of just getting back up on his feet like any other "fallen" player should have done? (unless he was looking to the referee to come over and help him up?) 

[Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$]

whatever, during the game that punishment is a yellow card
a two match suspension afterwards is an emotionally driven reaction
i really think the finger should be pointed at the refferee and not the player
Eduardo played himself into a NON goalscoring position and lost control of the ball
ergo goal kick or corner
linesman was consulted
based on the existing rules there should be no banning or returbution for his falling
a yellow card i would accept but a ban? they better follow up that ban on every single percieved  "dive"

maybe just maybe UEFA opened a case to subsequently close it as a formality to shut the rest of you donkeys up

If all eduardo did was "fall" then why was he laying on his stomach, looking to the referee for a penalty to be awarded instead of just getting back up on his feet like any other "fallen" player should have done? (unless he was looking to the referee to come over and help him up?) 

Doh study he an dah subjective fanboy bullshit nah.  Eduardo musse have joint problems de way he collapse without being touched

[GunnerStunner]

whatever, during the game that punishment is a yellow card
a two match suspension afterwards is an emotionally driven reaction
i really think the finger should be pointed at the refferee and not the player
Eduardo played himself into a NON goalscoring position and lost control of the ball
ergo goal kick or corner
linesman was consulted
based on the existing rules there should be no banning or returbution for his falling
a yellow card i would accept but a ban? they better follow up that ban on every single percieved  "dive"

maybe just maybe UEFA opened a case to subsequently close it as a formality to shut the rest of you donkeys up

If all eduardo did was "fall" then why was he laying on his stomach, looking to the referee for a penalty to be awarded instead of just getting back up on his feet like any other "fallen" player should have done? (unless he was looking to the referee to come over and help him up?) 

Doh study he an dah subjective fanboy bullshit nah.  Eduardo musse have joint problems de way he collapse without being touched

wow a chelsea fan giving objective fan boy talsk about diving? i never knew stamford bridge was built of glass

[GunnerStunner]

whatever, during the game that punishment is a yellow card
a two match suspension afterwards is an emotionally driven reaction
i really think the finger should be pointed at the refferee and not the player
Eduardo played himself into a NON goalscoring position and lost control of the ball
ergo goal kick or corner
linesman was consulted
based on the existing rules there should be no banning or returbution for his falling
a yellow card i would accept but a ban? they better follow up that ban on every single percieved  "dive"

maybe just maybe UEFA opened a case to subsequently close it as a formality to shut the rest of you donkeys up

If all eduardo did was "fall" then why was he laying on his stomach, looking to the referee for a penalty to be awarded instead of just getting back up on his feet like any other "fallen" player should have done? (unless he was looking to the referee to come over and help him up?) 

and if thats all you got from my post was "fall" then you missed the point  and are of the same personality type as Patos Manning

[GunnerStunner]

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has been told he can expect an apology from Premier League referees chief Keith Hackett following his dismissal in the closing seconds of Saturday's 2-1 defeat to Manchester United.
League Managers Association chief executive Richard Bevan has spoken to Hackett about the Old Trafford incident which saw Wenger sent to the stands by referee Mike Dean on the advice of fourth official Lee Probert.

And he has been told that Wenger will receive an apology from the Premier Game Match Officials Board which appoints officials to top-flight games in England.

The Gunners boss caught Probert's attention when he kicked an empty water bottle down the touchline following a disallowed goal for Arsenal.

There was then confusion as Wenger seemed unaware of where he was supposed to go - moving first to the back of Arsenal dugout then starting to walk down the touchline as the whistle was blown.

On the decision to penalise Wenger, Bevan said: ''Although correct in 'law', it was completely out of context in the game and it was followed by the nonsense which followed over where Arsene Wenger should sit.''

He added: ''I've spoken to Keith Hackett and he fully recognises the situation was an error and an apology will follow to Arsene Wenger.

''Lee Probert totally failed to manage the situation and created a needless pressure point taking the focus away from the pitch in a big event with only a minute to go.''

[giggsy11]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

[Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$]

wow a chelsea fan giving objective fan boy talsk about diving? i never knew stamford bridge was built of glass

Fella if Drobga dive I does geh vex de same way so me eh wah hear no glass house ass talk.  My feeling on the issue isn't bias or slanted against other teams and not Chelsea so haul yuh ass wit da f**kry. 

[GunnerStunner]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

not sure but the statement comes from his website

[GunnerStunner]

wow a chelsea fan giving objective fan boy talsk about diving? i never knew stamford bridge was built of glass

Fella if Drobga dive I does geh vex de same way so me eh wah hear no glass house ass talk.  My feeling on the issue isn't bias or slanted against other teams and not Chelsea so haul yuh ass wit da f**kry. 

haul it for me if yuh so brave and bold, and your feeling on the issue is fine and dandy then you should imply it in your statements or forever expect comments like mine in retort or you should refrain from commenting all together

[giggsy11]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

not sure but the statement comes from his website

 

[Observer]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

I was wondering that myself. Seems very unprofessional, especially since he was involved in WC Qualification for Russia.

PS I like the commentator's shout "He should put down his wallet."  

[giggsy11]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

I was wondering that myself. Seems very unprofessional, especially since he was involved in WC Qualification for Russia.

PS I like the commentator's shout "He should put down his wallet."  

I wonder if he has ever had to be in top shape? Considering he played minimum amount of games when he played in the Russian league. I get the sense that football is a hobby for him based on his various interests.

[GunnerStunner]

Gunner, why is Arshavin outter shape and overweight? Was he injured during the off season?

I was wondering that myself. Seems very unprofessional, especially since he was involved in WC Qualification for Russia.

PS I like the commentator's shout "He should put down his wallet."  

I wonder if he has ever had to be in top shape? Considering he played minimum amount of games when he played in the Russian league. I get the sense that football is a hobby for him based on his various interests.

point but jesus imagine if he was motivated more? he has a "lazy" air about him but undoubtedly friggin tallented

[elan]

Banning players is madness and would set a dangerous precedent.

Do they only get banned if it's in the penalty area?

Referees are instructed to card the players, so the players take the chance. The Ref is also a professional, so he makes the call. Ok he may get it wrong, mistakes happen. What happens if he (the ref) does not make the call and later we see it was a penalty? Do they fine the Referee?

We have seen big games where legitimate penalties were not given. It usually balances out.

Players making big dollars, after the game if video evidence shows the player dived, hit them some big fines.

Where's the dangerous precedent you mentioned?  All the other stuff you mentioned implicates post-match review, but none of it addresses the aim of the proposal.  The goal isn't to get EVERY call right (a point also lost on Elan) but to help eliminate simulation.  Since when is deception "the nature of the game"?  Unless you fake out a man with a move, or run a man at the ball just before a free kick is taken "deception" has no part in football.

Your alternate solution of fining players rather than banning them promises to be even less effective than suspension.  Any system of fining players would have to be uniformed, meaning that all players would pay the same penalty for the same offense.  Maybe the fine would be graduated for repeat offenses, but rich players would pay the same price as not-so-rich players, meaning that the impact on the not-so-rich would be greater than it would be on the rich player.  Not that we should care about lower-paid players who dive, but the central point is what is a $10,000 fine (for instance) to a Cristiano Ronaldo or Didier Drogba?

Suspension is more effective because not only the player benefits from his diving, but the entire team.  So why not "punish" the entire team by forcing them to play without the diver?  This way he will realize the selfishness of his actions, affecting not just the opposing team, but his own team and organization as well.  If the suspension is withouth pay then that would be even better.

The point eh lost on no one brother man, but you and the other fella eh thinking through this. Goals are only scored from the penalty area, right?

[takenoprisoners]

Uefa tells Arsenal there can be no plea for mercy over Eduardo
• Uefa report damns Croatia forward for diving against Celtic
• Arsenal submit strident 19-page defence ahead of hearing

David Hytner
guardian.co.uk,    Monday 31 August 2009 20.56 BST
Article history

Eduardo is facing a Uefa disciplinary hearing after this incident in the Arsenal v Celtic Champions League play-off. Photograph: NewsPics Ltd/ITV

Arsenal have submitted a strident defence of Eduardo da Silva to Uefa ahead of the striker's disciplinary hearing tomorrow and they hope it can persuade the governing body to spare him a suspension of two European matches.

The London club believe that Uefa's process in arriving at the decision to charge Eduardo with "deceiving the referee" after his tumble earned a penalty against Celtic in the Champions League play-off last Wednesday has been flawed.

Arsenal were stunned to learn of the charge on Friday and were left to digest the wording of a fax from the Uefa general inspector, Gerhard Kapl, which appeared to point to conclusions already formed. In the fax outlining the charge and the surrounding circumstances, Eduardo is said to have "succeeded in deceiving the referee, who was influenced by the player's gross unsporting behaviour". It added: "There are no exceptional circumstances that would justify a plea for mercy."

Eduardo is also said to have won the penalty with an "obvious dive" and "through the act of cheating", while the referee's observer is quoted as saying that there was "not the slightest interference with the player", with regard to the Celtic goalkeeper Artur Boruc's challenge. It is implied that Eduardo ought to have immediately told the referee, Manuel Mejuto González, that he did not feel a penalty should have been awarded.

One of Arsenal's complaints, in their 19-page submission, is that, having also studied the video evidence, they feel that there was some element of contact from Boruc. They believe that this is shown in the footage that Uefa has sent them and, therefore, there is inaccuracy in the governing body's analysis. They have urged Uefa to scrutinise the flashpoint again.

Moreover, Arsenal contend it is impossible for Uefa or anybody to read any intention to deceive into Eduardo's tumble. They have pointed out he did not appeal for a foul and they have also stressed Eduardo's blemish-free disciplinary previous and the fact that, following his horrific leg break at Birmingham City in February 2008, he is generally mindful of the need to pull out of potential collisions.

Arsenal have drawn attention to what they believe is inconsistency in Uefa's application of Article 10 (1) (c), which gives them the opportunity to revisit incidents containing alleged deceptions, even if the referee has seen and acted upon them. Even though the article entered the rules in 2006, Uefa's retrospective charging of Eduardo has been the first time that it has applied it and Arsenal argue that there have been countless other occasions when it could have been employed.

Notwithstanding the potential to set a dangerous precedent, Arsenal are perplexed that Uefa has effectively condemned Eduardo with video evidence while it continues to refuse to use it to help referees to arrive at their decisions. The case will be judged on the basis of written submissions from both sides. Eduardo is on international duty with Croatia


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/aug/31/eduardo-arsenal-celtic-diving-allegation-uefa


The decision to grant a two game ban retroactively to a player not regarded as a chronic cheat is overkill. This infraction was dealt with on the field and should have been left there.

[Bakes]

Good point about the "impossibility" of reading intent into his actions.  Intent can be inferred from the totality of the circumstances however, so hard luck with that.

Bullshit song and dance about him being timid after the leg break.  He coulda jump over Boruc, he didn't have to dive.  Can't believe they even saying that with a semi-straight face.

[GunnerStunner]

of course its easy for the ignorant and biased to say wenger is just a cry baby

but

he has a vaild point, why pick on one player? because the losing side complained? well isnt that what wenger is doing? but his pleas will fall on deaf FA and FIFA ears

another valid point, UEFA and ALL football associations will need to review ALL video evidence and charge each offence for the round of games played

[Observer]

Allyuh still arguing this! As my Italian friend put it, interesting their are no questions of the referee's competence, allowing himself to be conned. After all he too is a professional.  Only an Italian will think this way? I thinks not!

[GunnerStunner]

Allyuh still arguing this! As my Italian friend put it, interesting their are no questions of the referee's competence, allowing himself to be conned. After all he too is a professional.  Only an Italian will think this way? I thinks not!

its what i been saying too man, refferees get too much protection, the refs association dont work towards this FIFA act like absentee plantation owners, and nothing is being done to improve refs, heck the ref association had to appologies to wenger for his dismissal go figure

[GunnerStunner]

EFF YOU UEFA YUH STINK NASTY BIASED MONKEYS IN SUITS

[Bakes]

of course its easy for the ignorant and biased to say wenger is just a cry baby

but

he has a vaild point, why pick on one player? because the losing side complained? well isnt that what wenger is doing? but his pleas will fall on deaf FA and FIFA ears

another valid point, UEFA and ALL football associations will need to review ALL video evidence and charge each offence for the round of games played

Nah, only for the most egregious offenses.

I'd also be careful how I toss around labels like "ignorant and biased" if I were you... when it comes to irrational partisan comments, only Small Mag worse than you on this board.

[Peong]

I find is real shit for them to use video evidence to punish a player for a dive but they don't use video to decide goals.

[Observer]

of course its easy for the ignorant and biased to say wenger is just a cry baby

but

he has a vaild point, why pick on one player? because the losing side complained? well isnt that what wenger is doing? but his pleas will fall on deaf FA and FIFA ears

another valid point, UEFA and ALL football associations will need to review ALL video evidence and charge each offence for the round of games played

Nah, only for the most egregious offenses.

I'd also be careful how I toss around labels like "ignorant and biased" if I were you... when it comes to irrational partisan comments, only Small Mag worse than you on this board.

Bakes hear my point on this whole issue, which I have yet to see anyone bring up and maybe I should write to Platini 

What is the punishment for embellishment as per the LAWS of the game? Its a yellow card! Am I right? So if the referee had booked Eduardo for embellishment, he would have been yellow carded. Fair! How the f*#ck video evidence of Eduardo diving is now a two game ban? 

[DeSoWa]

If we had only complained to FIFA when Crouch cheated his way to a goal in WC 2006....Oh wait...he English so it's ok...hmmm 

Big Up!

[dinho]

of course its easy for the ignorant and biased to say wenger is just a cry baby

but

he has a vaild point, why pick on one player? because the losing side complained? well isnt that what wenger is doing? but his pleas will fall on deaf FA and FIFA ears

another valid point, UEFA and ALL football associations will need to review ALL video evidence and charge each offence for the round of games played

Nah, only for the most egregious offenses.

I'd also be careful how I toss around labels like "ignorant and biased" if I were you... when it comes to irrational partisan comments, only Small Mag worse than you on this board.

Bakes hear my point on this whole issue, which I have yet to see anyone bring up and maybe I should write to Platini 

What is the punishment for embellishment as per the LAWS of the game? Its a yellow card! Am I right? So if the referee had booked Eduardo for embellishment, he would have been yellow carded. Fair! How the f*#ck video evidence of Eduardo diving is now a two game ban? 

Whats the punishment for faking an injury to try to get an opponent sent off, like Rivaldo did in the 2002 World cup holding his face when the ball in fact hit him on the thigh? A yellow card as well not so?

Separate the actual incident in the context of the running game from the implications on the sport when assessing it. It would be unreasonable to give a player a red card in the game for an incident which really isn't part of the running course of game.

The subsequent punishment upon review is for unsportsmanlike conduct or bringing the game into disrepute hence the ban.

[Bakes]

Bakes hear my point on this whole issue, which I have yet to see anyone bring up and maybe I should write to Platini 

What is the punishment for embellishment as per the LAWS of the game? Its a yellow card! Am I right? So if the referee had booked Eduardo for embellishment, he would have been yellow carded. Fair! How the f*#ck video evidence of Eduardo diving is now a two game ban? 

You forget that leagues are often free to add to the punishment mandated by FIFA, FIFA's laws of the game are a baseline starting point.  As I said, if the punishment is unfair, it should be appealed to FIFA or the Council for Arbitration for Sport.

A foul which prevents a clear goal-scoring opportunity is an automatic red, right?  What if injury results from the tackle?  Is it not also possible that the offending player could be suspended as well?  As I said, FIFA sets the baseline, it can't provide contigencies for every offense... for the more egregious offenses the governing bodies are free to add to the penalties.  In this case UEFA looked at the stage (prestigious tournament) and the degree of embellishment and finds that it merits suspension.

You may not agree with it, but hard to say that it's illegal or unfair when it's firmly within the scope of penalties that they may apply.

[daryn]

The subsequent punishment upon review is for unsportsmanlike conduct or bringing the game into disrepute hence the ban.

so what would the punishment during the game have been for if it had been detected then?

the fact that there is a prescribed response to a specific infringement means that everything has already been considered.  Unless you're saying that it is customary for someone to get the yellow during the game as well as the suspension after.

[dinho]

The subsequent punishment upon review is for unsportsmanlike conduct or bringing the game into disrepute hence the ban.

so what would the punishment during the game have been for if it had been detected then?

the fact that there is a prescribed response to a specific infringement means that everything has already been considered.  Unless you're saying that it is customary for someone to get the yellow during the game as well as the suspension after.

but thats my point, if it was detected then the punishment would have been a yellow card.. in my opinion it would be farcical to send a player off in a running game for a dive..

however i don't think it ends there, because outside of the context of the game the fact is that he cheated and there are wider ramifications that need to be addressed. Blatant cheating is a precedent that cannot be encouraged. As a comparison, take for example tennis.. Lets say a player cuss out the umpire, the most that could be done at that point is to dock him a couple points in the game, but that doesn't mean that retroactive punishment shouldnt follow in the interest of the sport.

Remember that within a football game, punishment is constituted by 2 options only.. A caution or a sending off.. That gives hardly enough leeway to protect the interests of the sport.

[GunnerStunner]

If we had only complained to FIFA when Crouch cheated his way to a goal in WC 2006....Oh wait...he English so it's ok...hmmm 

Big Up!

ent!

but we have jack warner? ent?