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Offline doc

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Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« on: May 29, 2006, 08:58:34 AM »

The Times    May 29, 2006

Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty

By Owen Slot
Our correspondent travels to Brazil to learn the philosophy according to Sócrates and the guardians of football's soul in the first of a four-part series
“IS THAT WHY YOU HAVE COME ALL this way? To discover whether it is more important to win or to play beautiful football?” The question is greeted with deep-belly laughter, as if the whole world should know the answer. The great man pauses, as if to give us Luddites a chance. “Beauty comes first,” he says at last. “Victory is secondary. What matters is joy.”

And that is the gospel according to Sócrates. He delivers it in a sitting of 90 minutes during which he sees off six beers, four cigarettes and every opinion to the contrary.

We have come to Brazil in search of the heart of football, to discover how strongly it still beats in its guardian nation. In order to find Sócrates, you must first fly to São Paulo and then another hour north-west to his home town of Ribeirão Preto. When you arrive, you find an old hero so concerned for the game that he is prepared to invest in Ronaldinho and the Brazil class of 2006 the responsibility of saving it.

A bit dramatic, perhaps, but a journey through Brazil reveals that he is not alone, that the high priests of the game in his country are with him. The game is changing, as of course it must, but Falcão, Rivelino, Romário and the great Pelé share a concern for its direction and see in this year’s Brazil a last chance to strike a note for romance.

The 2006 Seleção, as the team is known, is as extravagantly gifted as any for a generation. The coach, Carlos Alberto Parreira, has promised to start the World Cup playing what has become known as the “Magic Quartet”: an attack that includes Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Adriano and Kaká. There are many who would like to see this become a quintet, with Robinho thrown in, but the potential of the quartet is ambitious and delicious enough in itself. The question, therefore, is whether they will unleash this potential — Parreira, for starters, is a conservative at heart. But what potential!

Brazilian football, for the purists, reached its peak in the Seleçãos of 1970 and 1982 and yet, says Sócrates: “This is the first team that we believe can play similarly to the 1982 team. Football today is more of a physical battle than anything else. This team can bring beauty back to the game and charm the world again.”

The reason we have sought out Sócrates, 54, is because the side he captained in 1982 — the star-studded midfield of himself, Falcão and Zico, plus Junior’s marauding runs from left back — may have succeeded in charming the world, but they did not make it past the second group stage. And that famous 3-2 defeat by Paolo Rossi’s Italy was the defining moment of Só crates’s life.

It does not appear to have remotely scarred him. Conversely, Falcão, who scored Brazil’s second goal in a memorable match, Sócrates having got their first, says that 24 years on he is still not allowed to forget it. These days, Falcão is a big player in the football media, but he does a lot of public speaking and wherever in the world he throws the floor open to questions, 90 per cent of them are about Italy and 1982.

Sócrates, meanwhile, has a healthy, eclectic and Falstaffian appetite for the world. He writes in the media and hosts a TV chat show. Last year he acted in a film and wrote a musical. He has no time left for the field in which he is professionally qualified, which is medicine.

“I love women and I love life and that’s what’s important,” he says. “I only do everything else in order to pay for that.” But he also loves the concept of the glorious defeat of 1982. “That Brazilian team represented fantasy, idealism, an idyll,” he says. “Italy represented efficiency, effectiveness. But at least we lost fighting for our ideals. And you can compare that to society today. We have lost touch with humanity, people are driven by results. They used to go to football to see a spectacle. Now, with very few exceptions, they go to watch a war and what matters is who wins. That is why I value the Seleção for this World Cup — it might just be a team with ideals.”

IN THE LONG HISTORY OF BRAZILIAN football there are two defeats that are not allowed to rest. One is to Italy in 1982, the other is the 2-1 loss to their diminutive neighbours, Uruguay, in the final match of the 1950 World Cup, in their very own Maracanã stadium, which is felt by some to be as great a tragedy as Brazil has ever experienced.

The effect of 1950 on the nation’s psyche is dissected brilliantly by Alex Bellos in his book Futebol, The Brazilian Way of Life, in which he tells how Zizinho, the team’s star player, would take his phone off the hook on July 16 — the anniversary of the final — every year until his death in 2002, because the media would still ring him and ask about it. Even more poignant is his story of Barbosa, the goalkeeper , who was blamed for the defeat for the rest of his life. “Under Brazilian law, the maximum sentence is 30 years,” Barbosa said. “But my imprisonment has been for 50.”

The 1982 defeat is not viewed in the same light, probably because Brazil had already won three World Cups by then, but also because of their brand of football. Falcão, though, took some years to grasp this.

“It wasn’t Brazil who were the losers in 1982,” he says, “it was the game. It was a step backwards for football. By the time Italy and West Germany played the final, I was back home in Brazil. I started watching it on TV but early on I got in the car and just set off. I drove for miles. I was hardly conscious, I wasn’t thinking where I was going. I found myself in another town where I used to play tennis with a friend, but I wasn’ t there to play tennis. I didn’t know why I was there.

“I remember tiny details of that Italy game: my goal, the funereal atmosphere in the dressing-room, the front page of a São Paulo newspaper which had no headline, no writing, nothing but a picture of a child crying. Many of us played on for Brazil after that, but the Italy game was never mentioned.

“Two years ago, Sócrates, Zico, Junior and I were all at Fifa’s 100-year anniversary party in London — it was the first time that we had ever talked about that game together. But what I realise now is that the Seleção of 1982 has its own place in history. When Brazilians are asked their favourite team, many choose 1982. I was once asked in public if I would rather have won but played less beautiful football. I answered: ‘I would rather have won.’ And many people were appalled. ‘Are you crazy?’ they said. ‘That was the most beautiful team ever. You can’t say that.’ ”

Which brings us back to Parreira and the modern day. Winning football, attractive football or both? “One thing shouldn’t exclude the other,” Falcão, 52, replies. “You can play beautifully and win the World Cup. It is wrong to say we lost in 1982 because of the way we played — 1982 was fate, it was predestined.

“Ask any Brazilian who won the World Cup in 1994 and they can’t tell you,” is Sócrates’s roundabout reply. “Ask about 1982 and they all know. It’s part of our culture. It’s just the way we are. Football, above anything else, brings Brazilians together, more than our language, more than our flag. The productivity of this country improves by 50 per cent when a popular team wins.”

Which sounds like an argument for success ahead of style. Again, Sócrates responds with that deep-belly laughter that indicates another case of international misunderstanding. “Brazilians like to party,” he says. “This is the land of the sun, the beaches, the beautiful women. We like to see beautiful things.”

So much for romance. The problem here is that the aforementioned champions of 1994 won by adopting safety-first tactics drummed into them by Parreira, who is back in the job. Which is why few believe that the same man will really chance his hand this time. Neither Falcão nor Sócrates believes that the Magic Quartet will survive to the knockout rounds.

“But what an opportunity they have,” Sócrates says, his arms out wide. “To say something fantastic about the game. To bring back the joy.”

THE WAY TO SAVE THE GAME

THE BEAUTIFUL GAME will never be the same unless we start playing nine-a-side. That is the view of Sócrates and he believes it so deeply that he has been working on a thesis on the subject for more than four years.

“There needs to be a change in the game to bring back what’s been lost,” he said. “Undoubtedly, there are still players who can overcome that loss through talent and art, like Ronaldinho, but these players are now so rare.”

Football, Sócrates said, has become a physical contest rather than one of skill, in which strength and fitness hold sway over technique and vision. “It’s all about proportions,” he said. “Thirty-five years ago, players used to run four kilometres per game, now they run 11 to 12 kilometres. So it follows that there is less space on the pitch.

“That is why, in the Fifties, Sixties and Seventies, we had a lot more players who were technically better. I’m not just talking about Brazil here, this goes for other countries, too. Think about Ronaldinho — in the Seventies we’d have had 100 to 200 players like him. He would have stood out, for sure, but not the way he does today.”

The answer, Sócrates said, is to reduce the number of players and create more space.

Given that he is a writer, composer, TV presenter and actor as well as a qualified (non-practising) doctor, Sócrates lacks the time to complete his thesis. “When I have finished it, I will put its message into practice,” he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28777-2201147,00.html
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Offline Bourbon

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2006, 09:12:40 AM »
Exactly. While winning is nice......entertainment is paramount. Joga Bonito. Me eh come to see no chess game where ppl playing dead. The game is made to be played.
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Offline jai john

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2006, 10:08:51 AM »
Exactly. While winning is nice......entertainment is paramount. Joga Bonito. Me eh come to see no chess game where ppl playing dead. The game is made to be played.

which is why no matter how many cups Germany wins dey kyah get me to support them. I like beautiful football .. if the beauty is lost because of the will to win at any cost ... the game will fade as a spectator sport.
Could you imagine a Germany vs Sweden final ? It is possible but I hope I dont have to watch dat !

Offline jai john

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2006, 10:10:50 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

Offline jub02

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2006, 10:24:03 AM »
Yeh i remember wen it was England v Germany....Germany were hacking everyone all over. Pushin the players when theyd alredy passed the ball.
I jus hate Germany AHHHH

Offline Pointman

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 10:30:14 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... you want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I would choose to win, but given that Brazil is Brazil I think it's difficult to seperate playing beautifully from winning.
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Offline palos

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 10:33:50 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... you want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I would choose to win, but given that Brazil is Brazil I think it's difficult to seperate playing beautifully from winning.

The 1994 victory was certainly not pretty.  Seein dat is de same coach....I eh expeckin too much "beautiful football" from Brasil dis rongs eedah.
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline real madness

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 11:06:35 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I doubt...the mere fact he starting Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano shows that he is not defensive as 1994.  In 1994 they only real attacking players were forwards Romario and Bebeto.  The midfield was very defensive...Mauro Silva, Mazinho, Dunga and Zinho. 

Of course Brazil current line up is where attack oriented but I expect Parreira to assign defensive duties to all his players including the Big 4.  You win the World Cup without defending properly.

Offline jai john

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2006, 11:25:36 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I doubt...the mere fact he starting Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano shows that he is not defensive as 1994.  In 1994 they only real attacking players were forwards Romario and Bebeto.  The midfield was very defensive...Mauro Silva, Mazinho, Dunga and Zinho. 

Of course Brazil current line up is where attack oriented but I expect Parreira to assign defensive duties to all his players including the Big 4.  You win the World Cup without defending properly.

I think everyone would love to see teams play beautiful attackng footbal..it is just that the stated philosophy of this coach Parreira is different...maybe as, you say, he might change this given the players he has at his disposal...or he mght say you cant play Yorke and latapy together ..if you get my point.
brazil is the team most people want to see play attacking football.
Many people paid to see Mohammed Ali and some did so to see him lose but he did not change his style and was admired even in defeat. The point is Brazil is the benchmark for world football, even as an argentinan fan I admit that, and you dont want your flagwaver to lead your band of followers in the wrong diirection now do you. I they win playing boring football...they could send a mesage we would not like to hear ! You hear ?

Offline real madness

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2006, 11:56:37 AM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I doubt...the mere fact he starting Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano shows that he is not defensive as 1994.  In 1994 they only real attacking players were forwards Romario and Bebeto.  The midfield was very defensive...Mauro Silva, Mazinho, Dunga and Zinho. 

Of course Brazil current line up is where attack oriented but I expect Parreira to assign defensive duties to all his players including the Big 4.  You win the World Cup without defending properly.

I think everyone would love to see teams play beautiful attackng footbal..it is just that the stated philosophy of this coach Parreira is different...maybe as, you say, he might change this given the players he has at his disposal...or he mght say you cant play Yorke and latapy together ..if you get my point.
brazil is the team most people want to see play attacking football.
Many people paid to see Mohammed Ali and some did so to see him lose but he did not change his style and was admired even in defeat. The point is Brazil is the benchmark for world football, even as an argentinan fan I admit that, and you dont want your flagwaver to lead your band of followers in the wrong diirection now do you. I they win playing boring football...they could send a mesage we would not like to hear ! You hear ?

One thing I admire about Parreira is his willingness to go against popular consensus....i.e. 94 World Cup.  Do you think he will sacrifice winning just to please fans...I doubt very much..he is trying to do the impossible..please fans and win at the same time.  It is virtually impossible to do both at the World Cup, it is possible in league football because you have more than 7 games to win a title.

On the other hand Pekerman is trying his best to please fans because of Argentina's failure to progress to the second round in the last World Cup.  This is the most attacking Argentine team I have ver seen, I have been watching them since 1986.  They have always had very good attacking players but their strength lies in having a strong defence and then utilizing their attacking players.  However Pekerman's main focus is crowd pleasing football and very little focus on good defending...i.e Confederations Cup...i could be wrong...that might not have been the case in that tournament..but if this is true then that implies Brazil was simply too good.

So at the end of the day Brazil (especially Parreira) is not taking that chain up about being flagwaver according to you....theoir objective is to win first and please second...because with all this talent and i can't imagine dem not winning and being able to go back home.

P.S. Argentina probably hoping Brazil resort to crowd pleasing antics in order to improve their chances of winning the World Cup.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 11:58:15 AM by real madness »

Offline fari

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2006, 12:08:52 PM »
wow...what an article.  this socrates is a man after my own heart.  the man has a love for the arts, he is an idealist, he even writing a thesis on football.  that is something to be admired.  i would love to read that thesis if ever he completes it.

Offline jai john

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2006, 01:06:03 PM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I doubt...the mere fact he starting Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano shows that he is not defensive as 1994.  In 1994 they only real attacking players were forwards Romario and Bebeto.  The midfield was very defensive...Mauro Silva, Mazinho, Dunga and Zinho. 

Of course Brazil current line up is where attack oriented but I expect Parreira to assign defensive duties to all his players including the Big 4.  You win the World Cup without defending properly.

I think everyone would love to see teams play beautiful attackng footbal..it is just that the stated philosophy of this coach Parreira is different...maybe as, you say, he might change this given the players he has at his disposal...or he mght say you cant play Yorke and latapy together ..if you get my point.
brazil is the team most people want to see play attacking football.
Many people paid to see Mohammed Ali and some did so to see him lose but he did not change his style and was admired even in defeat. The point is Brazil is the benchmark for world football, even as an argentinan fan I admit that, and you dont want your flagwaver to lead your band of followers in the wrong diirection now do you. I they win playing boring football...they could send a mesage we would not like to hear ! You hear ?

One thing I admire about Parreira is his willingness to go against popular consensus....i.e. 94 World Cup.  Do you think he will sacrifice winning just to please fans...I doubt very much..he is trying to do the impossible..please fans and win at the same time.  It is virtually impossible to do both at the World Cup, it is possible in league football because you have more than 7 games to win a title.

On the other hand Pekerman is trying his best to please fans because of Argentina's failure to progress to the second round in the last World Cup.  This is the most attacking Argentine team I have ver seen, I have been watching them since 1986.  They have always had very good attacking players but their strength lies in having a strong defence and then utilizing their attacking players.  However Pekerman's main focus is crowd pleasing football and very little focus on good defending...i.e Confederations Cup...i could be wrong...that might not have been the case in that tournament..but if this is true then that implies Brazil was simply too good.

So at the end of the day Brazil (especially Parreira) is not taking that chain up about being flagwaver according to you....theoir objective is to win first and please second...because with all this talent and i can't imagine dem not winning and being able to go back home.

P.S. Argentina probably hoping Brazil resort to crowd pleasing antics in order to improve their chances of winning the World Cup.

You see ...you want to start me up again !
Boss argentina eh hoping nothing about anybody else. dey only hoping dey play to their full potential ...dat is all.they believe that they can win this thing but all fires must burn at the same time.
peckerman is under fire and if he responds as he is known to watch out. he has no first division experence or world cup experience except for youth but if you remember his style with Saviola et al you should not think he is hoping on anything from any other team.
the comment about beauty in winning is from the brazilian people not me ! Ask socrates falcao and pele !

Offline Grande

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2006, 01:10:34 PM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... you want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I would choose to win, but given that Brazil is Brazil I think it's difficult to seperate playing beautifully from winning.

The 1994 victory was certainly not pretty.  Seein dat is de same coach....I eh expeckin too much "beautiful football" from Brasil dis rongs eedah.

Palos I know you saw the Confederation cup...and some games for the qualifiers...Parreira was in charge...considering his priority is not the entertainment factor I was richly entertained man....that was beautiful football for me

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Offline Cantona007

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2006, 01:28:42 PM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... You want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I doubt...the mere fact he starting Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano shows that he is not defensive as 1994.  In 1994 they only real attacking players were forwards Romario and Bebeto.  The midfield was very defensive...Mauro Silva, Mazinho, Dunga and Zinho. 

Of course Brazil current line up is where attack oriented but I expect Parreira to assign defensive duties to all his players including the Big 4.  You win the World Cup without defending properly.

I think everyone would love to see teams play beautiful attackng footbal..it is just that the stated philosophy of this coach Parreira is different...maybe as, you say, he might change this given the players he has at his disposal...or he mght say you cant play Yorke and latapy together ..if you get my point.
brazil is the team most people want to see play attacking football.
Many people paid to see Mohammed Ali and some did so to see him lose but he did not change his style and was admired even in defeat. The point is Brazil is the benchmark for world football, even as an argentinan fan I admit that, and you dont want your flagwaver to lead your band of followers in the wrong diirection now do you. I they win playing boring football...they could send a mesage we would not like to hear ! You hear ?

One thing I admire about Parreira is his willingness to go against popular consensus....i.e. 94 World Cup.  Do you think he will sacrifice winning just to please fans...I doubt very much..he is trying to do the impossible..please fans and win at the same time.  It is virtually impossible to do both at the World Cup, it is possible in league football because you have more than 7 games to win a title.

On the other hand Pekerman is trying his best to please fans because of Argentina's failure to progress to the second round in the last World Cup. This is the most attacking Argentine team I have ver seen, I have been watching them since 1986.  They have always had very good attacking players but their strength lies in having a strong defence and then utilizing their attacking players. However Pekerman's main focus is crowd pleasing football and very little focus on good defending...i.e Confederations Cup...i could be wrong...that might not have been the case in that tournament..but if this is true then that implies Brazil was simply too good.

So at the end of the day Brazil (especially Parreira) is not taking that chain up about being flagwaver according to you....theoir objective is to win first and please second...because with all this talent and i can't imagine dem not winning and being able to go back home.

P.S. Argentina probably hoping Brazil resort to crowd pleasing antics in order to improve their chances of winning the World Cup.
Good points, but I can't agree with your analysis of Argentina/Pekerman. This team is live every other; a mix of silk and cold steel; artists like Riquelme, hard men like Heinze. To me he is setting the stage for present and future triumph and success by choosing a relatively young team, with a backbone of experience (which also provides the steel to the team).
Pekerman is under a lot of pressure because of the last WC failure, so I expect him to do whatever it takes to advance; crowd pleasing or not.
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Offline real madness

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2006, 01:39:41 PM »
Jai john

Nobody eh starting u up..relax yuhself....just because some men say Argentina not winning doh mean the team is $hit...I am a Brazilian fan and Argentina is my second favourite team.

Offline Pointman

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2006, 02:01:26 PM »
All the folks who expect to see brazil play beautiful flowing football should remember parreira's comment in 94..... you want beautiful football or you want to win ?
Same man is in charge again .....

I would choose to win, but given that Brazil is Brazil I think it's difficult to seperate playing beautifully from winning.

The 1994 victory was certainly not pretty.  Seein dat is de same coach....I eh expeckin too much "beautiful football" from Brasil dis rongs eedah.

Palos I know you saw the Confederation cup...and some games for the qualifiers...Parreira was in charge...considering his priority is not the entertainment factor I was richly entertained man....that was beautiful football for me

Good point indeed Grande cause I was gonna say that beautiful is probably relative. I f Trinidad could play like Brazil '94 I'd call that beautiful. In Brazil's case though I understand how one might not classify that as playing beautifully.
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Offline jai john

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2006, 02:19:17 PM »
Jai john

Nobody eh starting u up..relax yuhself....just because some men say Argentina not winning doh mean the team is $hit...I am a Brazilian fan and Argentina is my second favourite team.

Boy i respect your name yes ...you are the first Brazilian supporter I know who has Argentina anywhere close . I mst be mad too because i see agentna winning this and the next one too !

Offline ANC2

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 02:37:50 PM »
The objective is to strike a balance, win first obviously and then beauty. With the big $$$ in football beauty has taken a back seat. Then again some teams just don't have the quality to play beautiful.

Take a poll now, those who wish to see T&T play beautiful and out first round. Versus playing effective and getting through to the next round. Effective will win out. Its the same for any Nation.

Yes Brazil won in 94 and it was the first time in 20 years, just the turn out in the streets would tell you the joy it brought to te public. After they win man start talking about, "they won, yes! but they eh play beautiful football."

As someone who has no stake in Brazil I want to be entertained. As for T&T get the result fuss we.

Offline real madness

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2006, 03:08:56 PM »
Jai john

Nobody eh starting u up..relax yuhself....just because some men say Argentina not winning doh mean the team is $hit...I am a Brazilian fan and Argentina is my second favourite team.

Boy i respect your name yes ...you are the first Brazilian supporter I know who has Argentina anywhere close . I mst be mad too because i see agentna winning this and the next one too !

I know someone would say this..I like good football..I don't care who play it..true i have my favourites..i.e Brazil and Argentina.
I know a Brazilian wouldn't support Argentina and ah Argentine wouldn't support Brazil....but I am a Trini..so i could support anybody I want....i doh care who racist or whatever...i supporting football and not the country.

P.S..If i get Brazilian citizenship I will stop supporting Argentina.... ;D

Offline goodfootball171267

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2006, 03:25:02 PM »
Good Afternoon All,
This topic is a good one ... which reminds me of the age old ?  Which one allyuh rather ... play good and loss or play crap and win?  I remember plenty games in which teams play good and loss (TNT vs Jamaica) for example ... it have a few ah dem games there.  Trini play with more flair and skill and then them JA boys play hard nose ... final score 1-0, TNT loss. 
Ah ent know how long most of you watching, but for me i tired see teams play good and loss.  As a new coach and former college player ... i think i would rather play bad and win.  Sometimes you don't have the resources to play good and win.  Some teams have the resources, some don't, fact of life.   

Offline Big Magician

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2006, 07:06:09 PM »
they should get knock out in de first round.....is f@ckin miss universe ????......all this divine right shit....play yuh football and win de cup....
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Offline kicker

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2006, 07:19:03 PM »
Brazil's football in '94 was good...very neat..and they dominated all opponents (especially in Midfield). They also had one of the higest goals per game averages up until the final too (don't quote me on that though...that's loose talk that I heard somewhere, I didn't do the math). They just didn't have the dominating individual performances that people associate with Brazil.

A goaless final and negative media hype tainted everyone's view of Brazil and Parreira in '94.........watch Brazil's '94 games again objectively (I have), you will agree they played smooth flowing football......



« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 07:21:10 PM by kicker »
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Offline Bourbon

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2006, 07:22:21 PM »
If allyuh remember, Scolari was under the same pressure of playing to win, instead of playing to entertain. Would you say the 2002 team was a team that played negatively?? The thing is Brazillians almost have the two merged. The natural flair and skill they all love is what makes brazil brazil. Its the same thing that have 45,000 fans paying to see them train. Is the primary reason why they at the focal point of many Joga Bonito Ads, cause they see it as important to do just that.....play beautiful. Tell me how much of allyuh go prefer to see route 1 football where yuh knock a long ball from yuh defense.....straight up to yuh striker and then lock down from the time you score once??? That excruciating, that detracts from the very allurement that makes football the most popular sport in the world. Football is meant to be played. While winning is important, the entertainment factor is important too. Which one you think gets more coverage worldwide chess or football??? Chess is strategy....focus on winning and mental aspects.....but football is about expression and teamwork. Both have their strong points......but i know personally that seeing a player exhibit his skill with the ball is what most people enjoy about watching football. Joga Bonito........play beautiful.
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Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2006, 06:44:33 AM »
in my opinion very few teams can both play to win or play beautifully,brazil can do both at de same time.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline Observer

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2006, 07:38:20 AM »
If allyuh remember, Scolari was under the same pressure of playing to win, instead of playing to entertain. Would you say the 2002 team was a team that played negatively?? The thing is Brazillians almost have the two merged. The natural flair and skill they all love is what makes brazil brazil. Its the same thing that have 45,000 fans paying to see them train. Is the primary reason why they at the focal point of many Joga Bonito Ads, cause they see it as important to do just that.....play beautiful. Tell me how much of allyuh go prefer to see route 1 football where yuh knock a long ball from yuh defense.....straight up to yuh striker and then lock down from the time you score once??? That excruciating, that detracts from the very allurement that makes football the most popular sport in the world. Football is meant to be played. While winning is important, the entertainment factor is important too. Which one you think gets more coverage worldwide chess or football??? Chess is strategy....focus on winning and mental aspects.....but football is about expression and teamwork. Both have their strong points......but i know personally that seeing a player exhibit his skill with the ball is what most people enjoy about watching football. Joga Bonito........play beautiful.

How yuh compare football to chess is two completly different games. No comparison what so ever. Spin around, come around turn around and come again
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Offline jr sams

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2006, 08:00:29 AM »
Brazil's football in '94 was good...very neat..and they dominated all opponents (especially in Midfield). They also had one of the higest goals per game averages up until the final too (don't quote me on that though...that's loose talk that I heard somewhere, I didn't do the math). They just didn't have the dominating individual performances that people associate with Brazil.



Nah kicker...they did not dominate opponents.....in the Group stage they won 2 and drew 1 (against Sweden), and every game from there was close: 1-0 over US, 3-2 over Holland, 1-0 over Sweden then the final against Italy.
well yes

Offline doc

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Re: Forget winning, Brazil have a duty to beauty
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2006, 08:52:28 PM »

The Times    June 01, 2006

Why defence provides link between 1970 masterpiece and modern art

By Owen Slot

In the last of our four-part series about football in Brazil, The Times asks Pelé to rate his 1970 side against today's stars
SO HERE’S a story. The 1970 Brazil side were not the most talented of all time. That comes from Pelé himself. And to deconstruct myth even further, he insists that the “beautiful team”, as the 1970 Seleção became known, were not actually an attacking side at all. “Everybody thought we played offensively,” he said, “but we didn’t, we played defensively .”

And as Pelé tours the world, promoting his new autobiography, this is an opinion that you won’t hear too often nor see in its pages: that modern football is tactically redundant. “Now in the modern game,” he says, “they all play exactly the same. No style. When people say: ‘I play 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 or whatever’, I say: ‘Liar’. Because every team plays the same now. When they get the ball, they all go up to midfield and play with an 8-2 formation, then they lose the ball and then they all come back. They all play the same. Every game is the same.

“Last year I was in Zurich with Fifa, I said exactly this and people got upset with me. But I said: ‘Look at the TV, every team plays the same.’ ”

Thus, while we attempt to anticipate the potential of the Brazil team for the forthcoming World Cup, Pelé makes the link between the ages.

Yes, this year’s Brazil can emulate his famous class of 1970, but this is nothing to do with the much talked-of “Magic Quartet” of Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Kaká and Adriano. Indeed, Pelé brusquely dismisses the hype around the quartet. “Carlos Alberto Parreira [the coach] is too conservative,” he said. “He is not going to play an open way.”

The link, instead, is because the achievement of the 1970 side was that they were playing modern football. “When we lost the ball, everyone would come back into our half and defend, the same way teams do now,” he said. “We scored lots of goals because I think we were the best-organised team. But I am serious, this was a defensive team.

“When we lost the ball, only Jairzinho stayed up, the rest of us, we all retreated into midfield. People don’t realise that because we scored a lot of goals, but what we were doing was playing modern football.”

What that 1970 side did, then, was stretch the concept of a team becoming better than the sum of its parts. The best team of individuals, he says, was not 1970 but the first Brazil side to win the World Cup, the Seleção of 1958. “I think we had much better players individually in 1958 and 1962 than in 1970,” he said. “We had seven or eight excellent individual players. In 1970, individually we didn’t have the same talent, we had three or four excellent players, really intelligent readers of the game — Rivelino, Gerson, Tostão.

“I think the reason that we remember it so fondly is because, for a number of us, it was a last World Cup, a last hurrah. Sometimes when I look back on that time, it still fills me with sorrow that it is in the past.”

Likewise Brazil 2006: a last hurrah (surely) for Ronaldo, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Zé Roberto and Emerson. So would Pelé rate their chances against his winners of 1970? “It would be a tough game but I think we’d win,” he said. “Our forwards are more organised than them, we have a better attack. Pelé, Tostão, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Gerson — I think we are more organised. If Ronaldo was in shape, he might have made our team, Ronaldinho and Kaká, too, Emerson maybe.”

And now that the great man is playing fantasy football, what about his Brazilian first XI from across the generations? Here he shrugs because he has two insurmountable problems: One: “We always have so many good players from the midfield forward, it is impossible to make a choice.” And two: he cannot find five decent players in defence. “With goalkeepers, Brazil doesn’t have much luck.” He would have Carlos Alberto (1970) and Roberto Carlos as his full backs. But centre backs? “Mauro, our captain in 1962, he was fantastic. But after that, you have difficulty finding another.”

This, curiously, is one reason why he believes Brazil have such a good chance of winning this World Cup. “We always survive because we are so strong midfield forward,” he said. “But this time, comparatively, we could have a good defence.”

Emphasis here is on the word “comparatively”. Age and form raise question marks over the full backs, Cafu, 35, and Roberto Carlos, 33, while the two first-choice centre backs, Lúcio and Juan, have hardly played together.

Pelé has heard all that, but he believes in them nevertheless. Which is an original thought for the 2006 Seleção: a quartet to win it for Brazil, not the “Magic” one, but the quartet at the back.

# Pelé, the autobiography, £18.88, Simon & Schuster.

# Edmilson, the Brazil midefield player, has been ruled out of the World Cup, The 29-year-old Barcelona utility man suffered a knee injury in training on Monday in Switzerland. He will be replaced by Mineiro, the São Paulo midfield player.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,28777-2205738,00.html
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