What's wrong with Defence Force?

[Coop's]

Can anyone answer this question.This is not the DF that i knew,a team that has produced so many intrenational players for our country,dominated Football for many decades,i can't understand 7 goals in one game,we didn't even used to get 7 goals in a season,who is the Coach/Manager.What going on?

[ironman]

With all respect to Defence Force,the football landscape has changed and not in their favour.Coming out of school 20 years ago going to play for DF or Police was a decent choice second maybe to a Oilfield job,now a very talented youth cream of the crop type of payer after school going to play for DF is madness,so DF dont attract the best talent a young player will pass up DF to join NE Stars,Caledonia.The team that gave them 7 is a serious outfit,Jabloteh will set new standards for local club football.The guys who have th A levels will never think of joining DF officer ranks,he will go on a scholarship.DF force best hope is getting the late bloomers and respect W Connection and Jabloteh.

[Saltanfresh]

Defence Force today is suffering from the short sightedness of their former administrators. If the old vanguard had put things in place to deal with the changes in the TnT football landscape then they would still be a big side today. This is a typical problem with TnT football, every era had big teams but few if any are evergreen, where are the Colts, Maples, Harvards, Barataria Ball Players, ASLs, Leeds,Tacarigua Uniteds, Police, ECM Motowns, and even more recently Superstar Rangers, of yesterday. Some teams do not even exist anymore, others are now whipping boys, and still some are no longer in top flight football (i.e. the pro league.)

When you are on top you need to make contingency plans for tomorrow, to ensure your legacy, look at the perrenial clubs of the world, Santos, Man U, etc. Even when they have a weak side their teams are still in top flight football and bare at least some resemblance to thier past glory.

So I do not think the present crop of players are all to blame, nor is the present administration, but instead alot of blame must be put on those same older heads who injoyed all the glory days.

[palos]

Just my take.

Back in the day, Defence Force and Police were really the only places a footballer could go and be paid to play football.  This is why many of our top players played for those 2 institutions because there was no other alternative locally.  This in turn explained why they dominated the football landscape at that time.

Today footballers have different alternatives.  Clubs like W Connection and Jabloteh are TRULY PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL CLUBS.  Their pay I would assume is better than being in the protective services.  In addition, these clubs operate under a structure so that they not only have a senior team, but various junior teams as well providing a sort of "farm system" for the senior team.

Someone advocated that they give football back to the clubs.  A sort of bring back the old time days call.  I disagree.  The traditional clubs have failed to evolve and adjust with the times.  What the reasons are for that is a matter for debate but it is a fact that those traditional clubs have failed to keep up.

Someone else also said that players are not playing enough football.  Again...I disagree.  There is more than enough football being played.  There is the PFL...the local Super League.  The various minor competitions.  The youth leagues etc.

What IS different is that there seems to be STRUCTURE now when there was little in the past.

Even Colleges League is not moving with the times.  Give me any College team to play against a Jabloteh or W Connection Under 19 squad and I would bet the Colleges League team would be MURDERED!

This is not to say all is hunky dory with T&T football because there are clearly a lot of improvements still to be done.  But there are a few clubs that take the initiative to do what the TTFF has FAILED TO DO i.e. the development of football.  Respeck still to a club like Superstar Rangers who keep developin de youth irregardless of the various challenges that they face.

[Coop's]

I like and appreciate you guys assesment of DF and Football in the past.What i'm observing is that only two clubs have the infrastructure to operate like this,what about the rest?how long would they last?ppl in our country not even supporting Football any more so Football can't support itself.Having said that would it be safe to say we might end up back where we were.   

[palos]

With all due respect Coops.....when Army & Police were dominatiing the local scene where were the "other" clubs? 

Last year North East Stars won the PFL title.  The owner of NE Stars obviously put effort into his operation.  They're not doing as well this year.

You say people in our country not supporting football anymore yet I tuned into I95.5 about a month ago for a triple header and it was pure noise in de place.  Commentators said the place was FULL.

The "good old days" are GONE forever.  That is the reality.  The days of when the Savannah used to be full to see Carlton Franco and Malvern play against Maple.  Or the North South classic.  GONE!  KAPUT!  Dem days de only entertainment people had was dem ting.  Now man seein Ronaldinho and Zidane doin dem ting on TV LIVE and DIRECK...yuh think when dey go a local game and men doh match dat standard dey comin out dey house?

We livin in a completely different world.  I eh sayin dis world or de one long time better or worse...but it DIFFERENT.  We have to adjust.  People will come out when they perceive the VALUE is worth it.  Obviously the people who markweting the PFL and dah Super League DOIN SOMETING CORRECK.

The things is......it is the clubs that are taking the initiative without much direction and/or support from the governing body in T&T football.  If that is what you mean by giving the game back to the clubs then I would agree.

We already see the influence of community based football.  Jabloteh is largely a San Juan team even though players don't all necessarily come from the area.  Caledonia is a Morvant team.  North East Stars does bring de whole a Grande wit dem when dey playin.  W Connection is de Savonetta boys.  Army and Police, as good teams as they were, were never identified as a community team.  Malvern back in de day wasnt necessarily a community team.  Neither was Maple.  They were supported mainly based on class.  Malvern being more for the roots and Maple fuh de middle class people dem.  ASL wasn't no community based team but Trintoc being from South kinda was.

Tings happenin but in a different way.  As it should in my opinion.

[Coop's]

Would you have considered Point Fortin Civic,Memphis from Arima etc as doninant teams in those times,games against a lot of those teams were always very close not the runaway victory a lot of these teams are having in the Pro league,i think people want to see teams compete not demoralize.

[palos]

Come now Coop's.  Why were Army and Police so dominant in their time?  Because they had ALL the best players!!  The 7-0 scoreline doesn't appear to be the norm to me in the PFL except when it comes to Tobago Untied.  When you used to play with Army tell me allyuh didn't ever beat anybody by wide margins.

Why it is except for this season, ythe only teams to win the EPL since it's inception were Man Utd and Arsenal?
 (one year in between for Blackburn)

Why do Milan and Juventus dominate Italian football?

Why do Real Madrid and Barcelona dominate La Liga season after season?  Due respect to Valencia.

Why did Chelsea suddenly become competitive in EPL?  Because they bought some of THE BEST PLAYERS.

Who yuh KNOW winnin SPL before season even start?  Either Rangers or Celtic.

T&T eh no different.

[Coop's]

Alright ah like that,i totally agree with you,you have proven your point, that makes a lot of sense,is just that i miss the past Football i know it can't come back we have to move on.
   One question i want to put to you though,why are people complaining about the quality of our players today,with all the progress these clubs are making.I'm not on the past anymore i think we both in agreement times have changed it's a different ball game,i know this is just that i like talking to people that know T&T Football and get different perspectives.

[maxg]

Informative and Interesting discussion Palos and Coop's. Much appreciated.
Please continue..

[palos]

That's a good question.  I will give you my theory but dat eh to say is de right answer.

1 - It have some older players who does real begrduge de younger players de money and opportunties dey gettin dat de older players were not afforded in their time.  In a nutshell....some serious envy, pettiness and frankomeh jealousy.  Some men NEVER have nutting good to say bout nobody.  Even Yorke & Latas dey does criticise without merit.

2 - I not sure it is a fact that we not producin de amount of highly skilled players as we used to.  I believe rather that at the higher level of the game, a premium is placed on fitness, ability to play 2 way football i.e. offensive AND defensive duties, there is more of an emphasis on structure and teamwork rather than individuality.

3 - There are many more outlets for today's youth than just football.  Some play other sports.  Some go on to university.  Some go into other professions.  Some just fall through the cracks.  Case in point Kerwyn "Hardest"Jemmott.  I always heard about this player but until I saw him for myself, could I truly understand what people were talking about.  Hardest has amazing ability.  Latapy like ability and that is saying something coming from me who thinks Russell Latapy is the best T&T player I have ever seen.  But Hardest issues off the field sadly overshadow his abilities on it and as a result, a major talent is lost to T&T.

Other youths I have seen with exceptional ability are Keon Daniel, Hayden Tinto, and Kevon Neaves.  I am convinced the innate ability is there and really hasn't gone anywhere.  Football today is a very different game than the days of 4-2-4 etc.  If you not holdin yuh corner on the defensive end, coach benchin yuh tail.

I watch Carlos Edwards torment a Panamanian left back fuh de entire time he was on de field until he get sub.  We have no ability?  Nah....we have de ability.  Is other "abilities" we lack which we now learnin.  Learning how to play without the ball.  Maintaining shape and discipline.  

Supporting your teammates...not with shouts of "come on"..."leh we go"....but being in POSITION to give your teammate options with or without the ball.  If yuh teammate have de ball....he can pass it to a minimum 2 open men within a safe passing area.  If yuh defendin...cover yuour player so that if they have to "sell" their tackle and the man beat him...he not beatin de nex man...more likely dat teammate interceptin de ball.

Most importantly...playing AT SPEED.  Passing, defending, covering, all at speed because today's game is much quicker than in the past.  When our players come up against a team that plays at speed we're going to look lost in attack and defence beause from the most part...COLLECTIVELY....we play much too slowly.  Individual players can do so for their foregin clubs because they have more SUPPORT from their teammates who accustomed at playing at that pace.  On the National team is a struggle.  I was impressed to see our movement against Mexico.  We were not overrun.

The last time I saw that sort of movement and playing at pace with a T&T team was against the same Mexico in the 2000 Gold Cup under BSC when we collected 4 in we tail but all in all we played well.  The scoreline in that game was not a true reflection of the game itself.

So those are my reasons.

[Trinimassive]

Good point all round.
Carlos Edwards, Dennis L were good products of Defense Force.
Check the coach though....it "might" be one reason.
I bet if they get a more experience coach....yuh could see a difference.

[kounty]

i hear a lot of people talking about the coaches in Trinidad and I personally feel that that is the next direction we will have to go into, if we is to make this climb to the world cup and stay there (like how costa rica stay there for the last few...or even like how the US reach and stay there).  I hear a lot of bad about Bertille, but I believe he was definitely one of the best coaches from trinidad at the time, and still...but I also believe there is another level above the level of Bertille and all the other coaches in T&T, that we coaches must learn about.  The higher Philosophy of the modern game.  MAybe after we qualify and the world cup come and gone, the next step is fuh Jack to bring down the top coaches every month from the top clubs in the world, to train we loacl coaches, so in the end the higher philosophy will spread throughout trinidad football.

[Solo]

Very solid points below gentlemen do keep it up.

If you saw the game last night you would not ask the question - what is wrong with Defence Force? instead you would be asking - why is Jabloteh so good all of a sudden when they started the season so poorly? Honestly the Defence Force players were not so bad they were simply outclassed. Jabloteh ran at them for the whole game and the older the game got the faster the Jabloteh attack became and believe me dey coulda easily score more if Russell was not in goal.

That coach that Jabloteh have Fenwick is doing an amazing job and it seems like he has everyone getting to the same level. All seven of the goals came from the forwards - two from the right ( Johnson) three from the centre ( Noray) and two from the left (Codrington) and Whitley played almost the whole game. Also all of the games came with the run of play all were created by movement speed and a setta dribbling real dribbling yes.

I think the Defence Force just ran into a good team on a bad day and I think they were  a bit overconfident after beating Tobago united by four goals to nil on the weekend. I'm sure they will get over it and finish the season strong but last night just was not their night, Jabloteh hit them like an express train.

[raj]

This is what this forum should be about. I must say that both Palos and Coops know this game well.
Good constructive argument gentlemen!

[Observer]

That's a good question.  I will give you my theory but dat eh to say is de right answer.

1 - It have some older players who does real begrduge de younger players de money and opportunties dey gettin dat de older players were not afforded in their time.  In a nutshell....some serious envy, pettiness and frankomeh jealousy.  Some men NEVER have nutting good to say bout nobody.  Even Yorke & Latas dey does criticise without merit.

2 - I not sure it is a fact that we not producin de amount of highly skilled players as we used to.  I believe rather that at the higher level of the game, a premium is placed on fitness, ability to play 2 way football i.e. offensive AND defensive duties, there is more of an emphasis on structure and teamwork rather than individuality.

3 - There are many more outlets for today's youth than just football.  Some play other sports.  Some go on to university.  Some go into other professions.  Some just fall through the cracks.  Case in point Kerwyn "Hardest"Jemmott.  I always heard about this player but until I saw him for myself, could I truly understand what people were talking about.  Hardest has amazing ability.  Latapy like ability and that is saying something coming from me who thinks Russell Latapy is the best T&T player I have ever seen.  But Hardest issues off the field sadly overshadow his abilities on it and as a result, a major talent is lost to T&T.

Other youths I have seen with exceptional ability are Keon Daniel, Hayden Tinto, and Kevon Neaves.  I am convinced the innate ability is there and really hasn't gone anywhere.  Football today is a very different game than the days of 4-2-4 etc.  If you not holdin yuh corner on the defensive end, coach benchin yuh tail.

I watch Carlos Edwards torment a Panamanian left back fuh de entire time he was on de field until he get sub.  We have no ability?  Nah....we have de ability.  Is other "abilities" we lack which we now learnin.  Learning how to play without the ball.  Maintaining shape and discipline.  

Supporting your teammates...not with shouts of "come on"..."leh we go"....but being in POSITION to give your teammate options with or without the ball.  If yuh teammate have de ball....he can pass it to a minimum 2 open men within a safe passing area.  If yuh defendin...cover yuour player so that if they have to "sell" their tackle and the man beat him...he not beatin de nex man...more likely dat teammate interceptin de ball.

Most importantly...playing AT SPEED.  Passing, defending, covering, all at speed because today's game is much quicker than in the past.  When our players come up against a team that plays at speed we're going to look lost in attack and defence beause from the most part...COLLECTIVELY....we play much too slowly.  Individual players can do so for their foregin clubs because they have more SUPPORT from their teammates who accustomed at playing at that pace.  On the National team is a struggle.  I was impressed to see our movement against Mexico.  We were not overrun.

The last time I saw that sort of movement and playing at pace with a T&T team was against the same Mexico in the 2000 Gold Cup under BSC when we collected 4 in we tail but all in all we played well.  The scoreline in that game was not a true reflection of the game itself.

So those are my reasons.

I really like this presentation (argument). I will add that the only way to achieve what you have put forward is to develop a league where the best players are forced to play each other every Saturday. Sometimes smaller is better and for the good of the Nation, not to mention its player base. You cannot have two leagues in operation, this dilutes the product. If the best players play each other then men will have to perform to escape their markers, defend with concentration etc.
On another note palos I do not think clubs did not move with the times. What I believe the statement "Give football back to the clubs" was ment to project was bring the community back to football. San Juan Jabloteh as an example do not train and play in San Juan, consequently no real connection. I mean who is Joe Public? the driving force of football is its supporters, this builds the rivalry and tension for Saturdays game. Football without a crowd makes no demand on the player to be at his best. After all he could mistrap or fail to finish a sitter & who cares 
In general people not supporting football, palos some & I hilite some games may have a crowd but in general no one watching football. I mean 40 people at a pro game???
Anyway as I said i really like how you presented your arguments to Coops. And yes Coops allyuh were T&T first real Pro teams. Everybody know allyuh use to wake up, take a sea bath, get fed, train and play football. 
Doh try dat

[Coop's]

As a foundation member of DF Football they will always be dear to me,DF have always had coaching problems,we did well because of the quality of the players we had not necessarily skill but a lot of heart and love for the game,our Coaches were always some ex DF player and i think that still exist today,i also know we brought in two English Coaches one time.
   I try not to talk much about Football in T&T because i don't know the Teams/players so i can't make comments or assess their standard,when i ask questions or give my views on certain topics is knowledge i'm looking for,i know Football because i'm involved in it all my life plus it's my job but it seems like i  know more about Football on the outside of T&T than on the inside because of being away for so long.
    I want you guys that have given feedbacks on this topic to know how much i have enjoyed and appreciated it,i know we all feel the same about Football in T&T.    

[Coop's]

It looks like i can't get away from nobody,allyu know all my secrets i'm here just having a good laugh,aye fellas ah like that it's like bringing back old times,i wish sometime if we can have a get together of all the Forumites what a ball it's going to be .This is good constructive talk/conversation.   

[slates]

Coops, we do have an excellent opportunity to accomplish 2 things in the not too distant future:

1 - A gathering of those forumites who do not live in T&T, in Connecticut on August 18.
2 - Make nuff noise and support T&T football as we go up against the US.

Now I don't know where you currently live, but I am sure many forumites live here in the US and plan on going to the game. Let's try to figure out a way to identify one another.

[Coop's]

Slates i too live here in the US Virginia to be exact,teaching Soccer is my job here,trying to get away for any reason at this time of year is very difficult because of the commitments i've made to Summer Camps,teaching the game here is year round and that's why i have not seen T&T play in a long time.That would have been the ideal opportunity for me to get to know some of you guys.

[NC]

Last week I witnessed Jabloeth vs. Police in a practice game at the Hasley Crawford and the answer to the question "What's wrong with Defence Force?" would be the same if yo asked What's wrong with police?  Jabloeth is just a better team than most of the other teams in that league.  They are the closest thing to a real professional team in Trinidad - because of the work that Terry is doing - althought their food was delivered in boxes.  The game ended a little after noon and police was hustling into the tunnel to avoid the heat, while Jabloeth stayed and completed a few sprints.  And even then a couple of players stayed after to work on their own fittness.  That is what's wrong with Defence Force.

[Coop's]

Like all those teams of the past is it safe to say that the era of the DF is finally coming to an end?my guess is the only thing that's keeping them up is being a government establishment.
   What i've come to realize is this for any organization to survive in Football the people in charge have to be heart and sole in it,i can safely say after Joff Serrette and Ralph Brown left the Defence Force everything started going down hill,but that's life you can't do anything about that.

[palos]

Like all those teams of the past is it safe to say that the era of the DF is finally coming to an end?my guess is the only thing that's keeping them up is being a government establishment.
   What i've come to realize is this for any organization to survive in Football the people in charge have to be heart and sole in it,i can safely say after Joff Serrette and Ralph Brown left the Defence Force everything started going down hill,but that's life you can't do anything about that.

Yuh feelin exactly like how dem ole Malvern, Maple, Memphis, Civic Centre, and Hurricanes (who is dem u ask?....some ole side from south apparently.. ) etc does feel when dey ask deyself de same question bout dey clubs.

When yuh REALLY check it.....can you name even one CONSISTENT standard bearer of excellence from de 60's to now....IN ANY SPORT IN T&T??

I would guess WITCO Desperadoes is de only entity dat maintain a standard of excellence in any field of endeavour from Independence to now.  It might have more, but dat is de only one come to mind.  Men might argue fuh All Stars but I eh buyin it....

[Coop's]

I'm just throwing this out,is it safe to say in the World of Soccer today the organization that have more money,buy the best players,best Coach etc going to have the best teams.(i think that's the trend)   

[palos]

Was it not that way ever since football or any team sport for that matter start playin? 

Forgive meh if ah wrong but I eh think most men who play football fuh de army jes happen to be in de army because dey wanted to serve T&T and forego other oportunities to join better & higher payin clubs...

[Solo]

Wow NC sounds like those fella really train hard.

I like to see good football and I just think that whatever they are doing at Jabloteh right now is working. The football is good, passing game. fitness level and everything. It tells me that everytime I come back to T&T I can hope to see improvement and all is not lost. The way I saw Jabloteh play tells me that we have fellas home in T&T who could really raise deh game at will. I doubt whether I have seen a better attacking performance by a local team in a long while. Defence Force just happened to be the team in the way Tuesday night and the rest is history. Very few teams would have been able to nullify the attacking display in the second half that I saw. It was that good. believe me.

[Observer]

I'm just throwing this out,is it safe to say in the World of Soccer today the organization that have more money,buy the best players,best Coach etc going to have the best teams.(i think that's the trend)   

More or less Coops it has always been so. On a rear outing a team may win the League or Cup but in general its the same teams that dominate. More recently with the change of the CL format you will now see small teams getting in because once they get to the final 8, its two game knock out home and away. By the way that was how the Europen Cup use to be from the first kick off, so what Real, Ajax and Bayern did in the earlies was remarkable. However look at most Leagues around the World its basically the same names throughout. This is largely due to their ability to buy the best and in some cases bribe the rest hahahah 

[Coop's]

As you talk about Leagues around the world,what do you thing about the MLS they have no team that really dominates,their national team players are spread amounst all the clubs,i mean their club soccer is not really attractive,but at the international level they are quite good,does that speak well for thge system they have?
 

[real madness]

As you talk about Leagues around the world,what do you thing about the MLS they have no team that really dominates,their national team players are spread amounst all the clubs,i mean their club soccer is not really attractive,but at the international level they are quite good,does that speak well for thge system they have?
 

Very good question.  A lot of people knock the MLS and say it is a sh*t league, but the US national team is quite successful using a lot of MLS players.  Personally I think that MLS games are boring but it appears to be serving a purpose that is very beneficial to US national soccer.  So one can argue that their system works.

 It will be interesting to hear opinions of forumites especially those who are coaching in the US.

[dcs]

I believe the MLS has rules to keep all the teams on a level playing ground for the most part.
Stuff like salary caps and they all pretty much have the same amount of marketing other than in their local area.
Near the end of the season just about all the teams still have a chance to win the whole thing in the playoffs.

The standard of play will gradually increase....right now they managing to get good players for pretty cheap and getting decent crowds in the stands(real plenty young children) since the price is cheap ($16).  Players like Donovon get paid more than the rest and a good bit of teams have recognizable faces.

Imagine it have a Trini Rhythm section at all the new England Revolution home games.  They having a Caribbean Night June 25th with a Caribbean All Star team playing in de match before the Revs.  Their marketing is very hands on....contacting people directly with package deals and knowing who their fan base is....I notice alot of young people at the games wearing their youth club/school shirts.