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Author Topic: Why they pruduce???  (Read 3804 times)

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Offline Weh-it-is

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Why they pruduce???
« on: August 23, 2006, 09:13:44 AM »
Can someone give me some knowledge on why certain countries produce better player than others. Such as Brazil, France, Germany, England, Italy etc.  There are other countries with the players that play the same game and never get to be the Ronaldo's, T Henry's etc. What is it… Is it that there is some type of structure in place in that contry or a certain type of food they eat that’s different than ours.  I would really like to know!  ???
The ball is like a magnet if you continue to knock itit will attract, and then you can attack.  Get it?

Offline kicker

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 09:24:56 AM »
In sum:

1. Youth player development (coaches, facilities & infrastructure)- foster technical development

2. Football culture (the press, the fans & tradition)- creates desire, passion & ambition

My over-simplified 2 cents
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Offline daryn

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 09:35:21 AM »
In sum:

1. Youth player development (coaches, facilities & infrastructure)- foster technical development

2. Football culture (the press, the fans & tradition)- creates desire, passion & ambition

My over-simplified 2 cents


all those countries also have extremely large populations.  england is the smallest of the 5 example countries with a population of 50 million

Offline FF

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2006, 09:36:11 AM »
In sum:

1. Youth player development (coaches, facilities & infrastructure)- foster technical development

2. Football culture (the press, the fans & tradition)- creates desire, passion & ambition

My over-simplified 2 cents


I ent think yuh was rating the reasons... but personally I would put Football culture etc etc as the number one reason!
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Offline Quags

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 09:42:43 AM »
The men and women in these places live football all day and breathe  little footballers all night .

Offline Mr Fix-it

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 09:43:01 AM »
All about the money countries want to pump into the programs.  Look at the US..etc. they have the coaches money and they are willing to put it into development of football
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 09:45:49 AM »
Kicker summed it up right there. But I would like to add one thing to it that might be considered an extension of culture.

The presence of systems that nuture competitiveness and professionalism create an environment that compels players and teams to produce consistently. Years of playing and administering football has given some countries an advantage in producing good players and more importantly good teams. This is something many of the African countries lack but I think if and when African players return home and put their knowledge to use in the manner of Abedi Pele African countries will acquire more success more success.

I think one nation that is at the cusp of entering that "elite" class of football nations, well at least from and organisational standpoint is Mexico. They have recently won the U17 World Cup and their clubs are now consistently successful in the Copa Libertadoes.

Offline Weh-it-is

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 11:04:58 AM »
Thank you for the break down gentlemen :) So I'm guessing now the Pro-league thats in place back home and making the WC etc. It should help with producing better younger players in the future!
The ball is like a magnet if you continue to knock itit will attract, and then you can attack.  Get it?

Offline palos

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 11:09:51 AM »
CULTURE.

It depends on if one has a CULTURE OF FOOTBALL and to what extent.

The biggest country in the world population waise, China doesn't have the same CULTURE OF FOOTBALL as an infinitely smaller country, Holland.  Hence, the disparity in results on the field of play.  So kicker is correct.  But I wouldn't place culture as #2.  Without the culture..there would be no youth development etc.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 11:11:33 AM by palos »
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Offline kicker

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 11:23:09 AM »
CULTURE.

It depends on if one has a CULTURE OF FOOTBALL and to what extent.

The biggest country in the world population waise, China doesn't have the same CULTURE OF FOOTBALL as an infinitely smaller country, Holland.  Hence, the disparity in results on the field of play.  So kicker is correct.  But I wouldn't place culture as #2.  Without the culture..there would be no youth development etc.



yeah the 2 "generalized" factors were not meant to be listed in order of importance......sorry if I didn't make that clear  :beermug:
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Offline jai john

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 11:30:50 AM »
Add scientific training to the list. England has the football culture but dont usually produce many world class  players ..... plenty marketing but little substance and they seldom succeed away from home.
When you talk about kicking the ball ....you cant leave out brazil can you. In fact it seems there is hardly a brazilian who cant kick the ball !

From the youngest age they are taught certain fundamentals.... there are also certain secrets you have to go there to learn...one which is no longer a secret is the dipper.
BEFORE IT WAS A BRAZILIAN SECRET DEVELOPED BY DIDI. Now many other players have mastered it.

THere WAS ALSO THE BANANA kick DEVELOPED BY GARINCHA..... what we call the spannerbeat first demonstrated by Rivelino.

Certain moves have their origin in brazil as well like the body swerve of garincha and adopted by Bobby Chalton of that famous 66 team.
So when you look at it from this angle it is more than just good training programmes it is more the development of new technology which keeps you one step ahead.
that is why i will always advocate that looking to low level clubs in Britain for player development will not get us even close o our aspirations..but who is listening ???
It still is big news when an agent places a player in an irish league isn't it ...Lots of development to come there ...he can move up and be seen by the big clubs right ...I wonder if the big clubs got their status with that type of reasoning  ???

Offline kicker

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 12:00:33 PM »
Add scientific training to the list. England has the football culture but dont usually produce many world class  players ..... plenty marketing but little substance and they seldom succeed away from home.
When you talk about kicking the ball ....you cant leave out brazil can you. In fact it seems there is hardly a brazilian who cant kick the ball !

From the youngest age they are taught certain fundamentals.... there are also certain secrets you have to go there to learn...one which is no longer a secret is the dipper.
BEFORE IT WAS A BRAZILIAN SECRET DEVELOPED BY DIDI. Now many other players have mastered it.

THere WAS ALSO THE BANANA kick DEVELOPED BY GARINCHA..... what we call the spannerbeat first demonstrated by Rivelino.

Certain moves have their origin in brazil as well like the body swerve of garincha and adopted by Bobby Chalton of that famous 66 team.
So when you look at it from this angle it is more than just good training programmes it is more the development of new technology which keeps you one step ahead.
that is why i will always advocate that looking to low level clubs in Britain for player development will not get us even close o our aspirations..but who is listening ???
It still is big news when an agent places a player in an irish league isn't it ...Lots of development to come there ...he can move up and be seen by the big clubs right ...I wonder if the big clubs got their status with that type of reasoning  ???


next to player development "facilities" is in parentheses....technology falls under that umbrella....
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Offline Reggaefan

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 12:05:11 PM »
In sum:

1. Youth player development (coaches, facilities & infrastructure)- foster technical development

2. Football culture (the press, the fans & tradition)- creates desire, passion & ambition

My over-simplified 2 cents


Add player pool tio that list too....although it appears that is not an accurate measure...otherwise countries like India and China would be world champs.

I think alot of it has to do with culture and heritage. Some genes too.

Offline daryn

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 12:21:29 PM »
I have a question that is related to this whole topic (at least to me), I don't know if anybody could provide some enlightenment for me.  the question is as follows:

how does the quality of players we put out compare to what reasonable expectations should be for a country with our demographics (small population, developing country, half the population likes to play cricket more than football, etc etc etc)?

are we failing to live up to reasonable expectations? are we surpassing them? or right where we should be?

looking at the world cup squad for example: on one hand you have to smallest country to ever qualify (and not even a 1 sport country at that) performing creditably, we've produced players like latas, yorke and shaka who have been proven capable of holding their own against anybody else in the world.
On the other hand, we having glaring inadequacies in our developmental programs and some of the most gifted players not even approaching their full potential.

did we overachieve by getting to the world cup and giving a decent show or have we been underachieving all along?

Offline daryn

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 12:24:01 PM »
In sum:

1. Youth player development (coaches, facilities & infrastructure)- foster technical development

2. Football culture (the press, the fans & tradition)- creates desire, passion & ambition

My over-simplified 2 cents


Add player pool tio that list too....although it appears that is not an accurate measure...otherwise countries like India and China would be world champs.

I think alot of it has to do with culture and heritage. Some genes too.

well the player pool has to tie in with the culture.  the amount of people in India and China that are actually aspiring to be world class footballers is a completely different thing to the amount of people in India and China.  what infrastructure is then available to that group is another issue.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 12:26:00 PM by daryn »

Offline palos

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2006, 12:38:39 PM »
[well the player pool has to tie in with the culture.  the amount of people in India and China that are actually aspiring to be world class footballers is a completely different thing to the amount of people in India and China.  what infrastructure is then available to that group is another issue.

Think we had an interesting debate on a similar topic recently. 

Are you BORN to play football?

OR

Are you BORN with athletic ability and apply that ability to a specific sport?


In other words....was Pele or Maradona BORN to play football?

OR

If they were born in say USA or India....would they then be GREAT Point Guards or Field Hockey Players?
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Offline Weh-it-is

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2006, 01:12:25 PM »
[well the player pool has to tie in with the culture.  the amount of people in India and China that are actually aspiring to be world class footballers is a completely different thing to the amount of people in India and China.  what infrastructure is then available to that group is another issue.

Think we had an interesting debate on a similar topic recently. 

Are you BORN to play football?

OR

Are you BORN with athletic ability and apply that ability to a specific sport?


In other words....was Pele or Maradona BORN to play football?

OR

If they were born in say USA or India....would they then be GREAT Point Guards or Field Hockey Players?

I think that their are athletes that are born to play a specific sport. I would name a couple MJ, Tiger Woods, Babe Ruth, Barry Sanders Pele… those I would say were gifted by GOD to play a certain sport! Then their maybe others on the team that's not that great... but were born with an athletic ability and learned to play a certain position!
The ball is like a magnet if you continue to knock itit will attract, and then you can attack.  Get it?

Offline palos

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2006, 01:27:48 PM »
I think that their are athletes that are born to play a specific sport. I would name a couple MJ, Tiger Woods, Babe Ruth, Barry Sanders Pele… those I would say were gifted by GOD to play a certain sport! Then their maybe others on the team that's not that great... but were born with an athletic ability and learned to play a certain position!

What about the effect ENVIRONMENT has on what sport one plays?  If Edson Arantes do Nascimiento were born in India....think he would be Pele today?
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Offline Weh-it-is

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2006, 01:48:54 PM »
I think that their are athletes that are born to play a specific sport. I would name a couple MJ, Tiger Woods, Babe Ruth, Barry Sanders Pele… those I would say were gifted by GOD to play a certain sport! Then their maybe others on the team that's not that great... but were born with an athletic ability and learned to play a certain position!

What about the effect ENVIRONMENT has on what sport one plays?  If Edson Arantes do Nascimiento were born in India....think he would be Pele today?
Hmmm good Question! So it does have alot to do with the Enviroment. Not to say it don't have good players from India ok... leh meh clear that up quick! ;D
The ball is like a magnet if you continue to knock itit will attract, and then you can attack.  Get it?

Offline DeSoWa

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2006, 01:57:12 PM »
Nice point Palos, but let us look at MJ for that particular scenario..he was born in the USA, which is a great environment for multiple sports..basketball, baseball, NFL, ice hockey, track, golf,to name a few. MJ has excelled in basketball, because I think he was born to play that sport. It is world knowledge that he also tried his hand at baseball and golf but failed, even though I think he is a great athlete..he only excelled at one. But I do believe your environment still have a part to play in how you develop in what ever sporting activity you decide to pursue.

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Offline daryn

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2006, 02:10:05 PM »
MJ has excelled in basketball, because I think he was born to play that sport. It is world knowledge that he also tried his hand at baseball and golf but failed,

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I think yuh being a lil bit harsh to say he failed at golf and baseball.  He didn't try to play competitive baseball till he was in his 30s and all reports indicate that he is a very good golfer for someone who doesn't do that full-time.

I would say that most people who are great athletes would have at least been good in other sports. 

Allen Iverson was a nationally ranked quarterback in high school, lebron was also as a wide receiver.  Randy Moss played against Kevin Garnett in high school all-star basketball games.  Viv Richards play football, cricket and I think basketball for Antigua.

if you look locally, prior to this era of professionalism and specialization, numerous people have represented T&T in football and cricket.

In a lot of sports you will find that the skills that help you succeed overlap.  All else being equal being able to run fast or jump high or having good agility or dexterity will always trump not having those attributes.

Offline Papasmurf

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Re: Why they pruduce???
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2006, 02:51:35 PM »
The reason is that these countries have structured youth programmes, where player development is emphasized at a youth level. Discipline is high in these youth channels and they get exposed to high levels of competition as youths, that is why these players are stars at 17 and 18, because at that time they have been playing high level, 'visible' football. Unlike in trinidad, where at 17 the most you playing is Intercol. Even those guys who are playing the CFU youth cup, if they qualify for the big tournament, they will come right back to play for their school teams when it is all over. While the Brazilians head back to teams like Vasco De Gamma, Santos, etc playing for the first teams.