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Author Topic: Where is Ganga?  (Read 2606 times)

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Offline ann3boys

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Where is Ganga?
« on: September 15, 2006, 08:22:45 AM »
Wondering why Ganga isn't in Malaysia..and not in WI A team. ??? After his performance in  the stanford, I was really hoping for a more permanent place for him.

Offline sinned

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2006, 08:56:13 AM »
west indies seem to consider ganga as not a valuable one-day player..thats BS if u ask me. ganga brings solidity to the one day batting lineup like nobody else. when he is there gayle tends to fire a lot more frequently. in the stanford tournament ganga shows that he can put his foot down on the pedal effectively in limited-overs cricket.. yet ganga cant smell a one-day place again.. i reallly hope that by the time the world cup comes around that ganga gets a place in the WI one-day team

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2006, 06:43:03 PM »
west indies seem to consider ganga as not a valuable one-day player..thats BS if u ask me. ganga brings solidity to the one day batting lineup like nobody else. when he is there gayle tends to fire a lot more frequently. in the stanford tournament ganga shows that he can put his foot down on the pedal effectively in limited-overs cricket.. yet ganga cant smell a one-day place again.. i reallly hope that by the time the world cup comes around that ganga gets a place in the WI one-day team

i am in agreeance with both of you, but chanders did a beautiful job at the top, but i doubt chanders is a much more attacking player than ganga, i believe ganga strike rate is higher than chanders in odi, i could be wrong but ganga should have been there, also a spinner should have been there also, but say wha....

Offline Jefferz

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2006, 12:04:12 PM »
west indies seem to consider ganga as not a valuable one-day player..thats BS if u ask me. ganga brings solidity to the one day batting lineup like nobody else. when he is there gayle tends to fire a lot more frequently. in the stanford tournament ganga shows that he can put his foot down on the pedal effectively in limited-overs cricket.. yet ganga cant smell a one-day place again.. i reallly hope that by the time the world cup comes around that ganga gets a place in the WI one-day team

i am in agreeance with both of you, but chanders did a beautiful job at the top, but i doubt chanders is a much more attacking player than ganga, i believe ganga strike rate is higher than chanders in odi, i could be wrong but ganga should have been there, also a spinner should have been there also, but say wha....

nope chanders is definately much higher, and so is his average,
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Offline ann3boys

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2006, 02:38:43 PM »
well at least Chanderpaul delivered. that man is sure playing better since he doesn't have the weight of captaincy,eh? ;D
I still think with Ganga opening with Gayle, Chanders could come in at #3, and that solidifies the top.
I also don't think Sarwan wants anything to do with captain, and they must bring in ganga to have some succession training.
ganga for captain after the world cup :beermug:

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 07:17:12 AM »
ODIs

- Chanders 182 innings, 22 not outs, 5813 runs, 36.33 ave., 70.61 s/r with a high score of 150

- Ganga 32 innings, 1 not out, 802 runs, 25.57 ave., 61.03 s/r with a high score of 71.

Offline Remie

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 04:25:25 AM »
Chanderpaul should not be opening the batting anyway.

In ODI cricket in overs 20-40 you need a guy that does not take many risks who can tick the score along and consolidate the innings. That is why Chanderpaul is the perfect number 5.

I personally do not rate Ganga that highly but for the opening slot at the moment it has to be between Ganga, Devon Smith and W.Hinds.

My pick is Devon Smith because i was impressed with what i saw of him in 2004 in England, but Ganga is the one that deserves the chance because he has been playing well lately. W.Hinds will always do a job for you, that is why it was stupid that Chanderpaul was opening and W.Hinds was in the middle order. One of these three guys should have been opening.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 04:30:42 AM by Remie »

Offline Jefferz

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2006, 06:19:05 PM »
Chanderpaul should not be opening the batting anyway.

In ODI cricket in overs 20-40 you need a guy that does not take many risks who can tick the score along and consolidate the innings. That is why Chanderpaul is the perfect number 5.

I personally do not rate Ganga that highly but for the opening slot at the moment it has to be between Ganga, Devon Smith and W.Hinds.

My pick is Devon Smith because i was impressed with what i saw of him in 2004 in England, but Ganga is the one that deserves the chance because he has been playing well lately. W.Hinds will always do a job for you, that is why it was stupid that Chanderpaul was opening and W.Hinds was in the middle order. One of these three guys should have been opening.

yuh killin yuh own point... "Ganga, Devon Smith and W.Hinds." all have very low strike rates and averages in ODI's far less in comparison to Chanderpauls...
since ah born or at least circa Copa Caribe

Offline Remie

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 09:43:46 AM »
Chanderpaul should not be opening the batting anyway.

In ODI cricket in overs 20-40 you need a guy that does not take many risks who can tick the score along and consolidate the innings. That is why Chanderpaul is the perfect number 5.

I personally do not rate Ganga that highly but for the opening slot at the moment it has to be between Ganga, Devon Smith and W.Hinds.

My pick is Devon Smith because i was impressed with what i saw of him in 2004 in England, but Ganga is the one that deserves the chance because he has been playing well lately. W.Hinds will always do a job for you, that is why it was stupid that Chanderpaul was opening and W.Hinds was in the middle order. One of these three guys should have been opening.

yuh killin yuh own point... "Ganga, Devon Smith and W.Hinds." all have very low strike rates and averages in ODI's far less in comparison to Chanderpauls...

No boy. Lara has a better average and strike rate than all of them but that does not mean that he should open. Statistics don't lie but you have to use them sensibly otherwise don't use them at all.

Just to break down Chanderpaul's ODI batting statistics a little further will show you that:

At positions 1/2 Chanderpaul averages 39.3 runs per innings
At position 5 Chanderpaul averages 40.6 runs per innings

Due to Cricinfo not being able to use strike rates in their filter it means that we cannot see the strike rate comparison, however my bets would be that Chanderpaul scores quicker at number 5 than he does opening the batting. This is because when he comes in at 5 there is less time to play himself in and the team is needing to up the run rate. This is why i think that it is stupid that he opens the batting when he is an obvious world class number 5.  In ODI cricket to average just under 40 in the opening slots is good but to average above 40 batting at number 5 in ODI cricket is excellent.

Chanderpaul is probably a better ODI opener than Ganga, Devon Smith or W.Hinds but that does not mean that you should sacrifice the balance of the side. If you were to say who is the best equipped batsman to open for the West Indies it would be Lara, but it would again be stupid to sacrifice him from the number 4 slot. I hope this sums it up for anyone reading why Chanderpaul should not open and should bat at 5.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 09:46:16 AM by Remie »

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2006, 12:55:10 AM »
Your point about Chanders average at the different positions is weak. That 1.3 difference is nothing. However, even if I am not convinced by your position you do make some interesting points. I believe that the players have a role to play regardless of their position in the line-up and Hinds is only going to put the team under pressure and Smith is too erratic. I think Ganga deserves a chance at this point based on form and the fact that he seems more consistent now. Otherwise let Chanders open if he's the best for the job at the moment. Let the rest of the team pull their weight.

Offline Remie

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2006, 06:53:28 AM »
Your point about Chanders average at the different positions is weak. That 1.3 difference is nothing. However, even if I am not convinced by your position you do make some interesting points. I believe that the players have a role to play regardless of their position in the line-up and Hinds is only going to put the team under pressure and Smith is too erratic. I think Ganga deserves a chance at this point based on form and the fact that he seems more consistent now. Otherwise let Chanders open if he's the best for the job at the moment. Let the rest of the team pull their weight.

dwolfman the point i am trying to illustrate is that it is less demanding to average 40 opening the batting in ODIs than averaging 40 batting at number 5.  Opening the batting in ODIs allows you 50 overs to bat at whatever aggression you choose. Coming in at 5 in ODIs means that most of the time half the overs and all of the powerplays have been used up, and also if you are there once 40 overs are up you generally have to give more importance to quick runs than your wicket. That is why averaging 40 at number 5 in ODIs is worth more than averaging 40 opening.

The fact that he averaged 1.3 more at 5 was not the issue, it was merely just a guide to show what a fantastic number 5 he is. After doing some further calculations if have found that Chanderpaul strike rate opening is 70.5 and his strike rate at number 5 is 73.5. Again it is not a huge difference but shows he is a better number 5.

In simple terms

Gayle is one of the best openers in ODI cricket.
Sarwan is the best number 3 in ODI cricket.
Lara is one of the best number 4s in ODI cricket.
Chanderpaul is one of the best number 5s in ODI cricket. He is not one of the best openers in ODI cricket. Yes, Chanderpaul is a better opener than Ganga/Smith/Hinds but so are Lara and Sarwan.

Why should we play any of these guys out of position. We just have to find an opener that can do a job for us rather than messing up the balance of our side. I agree that the rest of the team need to pull their weight, but we do not need coaches/selectors making the game harder for our players. We have one of the best middle orders in ODI cricket that has helped us beat every team in ODI cricket. If it aint broke why fix it?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 08:42:26 AM by Remie »

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2006, 09:49:33 AM »
Again, some decent points. I've not disputed that he is not a good #5. However, the reality of the Windies team is that even batting at #5 he can find himself more often with 40 overs to bat through rather than coming in after 40 overs have gone. I won't belabour the point without the statistics I love so much though. At any rate my point is it doesn't matter where he bats once the other players don't pull their weight. He's under more pressure coming in at 40/3 in the 8th over of the innings than at 0/0 with 50 overs to go. Even if he's capable enough to handle the pressure the team may be better served with him opening the innings. His performances at opener are better than most of the other options and more importantly more consistent which again is better for the team. Until we find an opener who is going to do his job you play the best possible option, even if that player does better at another position in the order.

Sarwan is a better opener than Ganga, Smith or Hinds? Based on what? Lara is a class batsman and will perform anywhere in the lineup.

Who says it isn't broken? We have to look beyond the individual performance of players to find the right balance of the team. Because Chanders bats well at 5 doesn't mean a thing if the team is not winning and we can look to the DFL Cup to see just how broken the team is.

Offline Remie

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2006, 10:54:05 AM »
We were a broken team in the final of the DLF cup because the batting order was diabolical. Sarwan is the best number 3 in the world so for some reason he moves down to 4 to accomodate Morton? Lara also moves down to 5 to accomodate Morton? You know what i think of Chanderpaul opening.

If you look at our ODI international results over the last few years you will see that when we pick the right team we are a real force in ODI cricket. We are the current holders of the ICC Champions Trophy and i don't care what anyone says, every team were out to win that trophy.

In ODIs over the last 3 years when the batting order has been

1. Gayle
3. Sarwan
4.Lara
5. Chanderpaul

we have...

got to the final of the Natwest Series knocking out England (in 2004)
won the ICC Champions trophy beating South Africa, Pakistan and England along the way (in 2004)
lost 5-0 to South Africa (in 2005)
beaten India 4-1 (in 2006)

In ODIs over the last 3 years when these Gayle, Sarwan, Lara and Chanders have played and this has not been the batting order we have

come bottom of VB Series to Australia and Pakistan (in 2005)
lost 4-1 to New Zealand (in 2006)
got to the final of DLF Cup knocking out India (in 2006)

We can see from this than when Gayle bats 1, Sarwan bats 3, Lara bats 4, and Chanders bats 5 we win more than we lose. Granted we lost 5-0 to South Africa in 2005 which does show that other still need to pull their weight if we are going to win consistently. We cannot rely on Gayle, Sarwan, Lara and Chanderpaul to score the runs every game. We need others to step up to the mark.

However we need a stable batting order. Players need to know what their role is in the side. If Chanderpaul opens then we need to find a number 5 of his calibre to replace him. Who has the ability to do what Chanderpaul does for us at number 5? We need Bravo to turn into a world class number 6 so he should bat at number 6 every game. We need a big hitter at 7 and it looks like Dwayne Smith could be the man. Yes he needs to play straighter and stop hitting across the line, but only if we let him bat at number 7 for a sustained period of time only then can we judge if his batting is good enough. If Dwayne Smith is batting at a different number every game it is not good for him or the team. Regardless of whether Baugh or Ramdin are picked, the keeper should be slotted in at 8 for the time being so that they learn how to finish off games. Ramdin was a great finisher at the under 19 World Cup.

It is when players like W.Hinds, Morton and Samuels get put into the middle order with no long term strategy that the whole balance of the side is affected and players do not know whether they are coming or going. I have nothing against any of these players but the way that they are selected leaves a lot to be desired. It would have made sense to let one of these guys open (or if selected, Ganga) and keep the rest of the side consistent. After all we had just come of the back of beating India 4-1.

With the successful Australian side which won the World Cup in 1999 and 2003 it was common knowledge what their best eleven was and at what number each player would bat. It seems as though Bennett King does not have a clue what our best eleven is, let alone the batting order.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 12:51:14 PM by Remie »

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Where is Ganga?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2006, 11:49:06 AM »
I agree with the uncertainty of knowing where or when they will play. Also, I agree that the batting order shift for Morton made no sense. Hinds and Samuels have had their chances and the selectors really need to be looking elsewhere.