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Author Topic: Make up of the side  (Read 3394 times)

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Offline Remie

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Make up of the side
« on: November 02, 2006, 02:44:55 PM »
I must admit that i was very sceptical of Chanderpaul opening the innings at first because i felt that with him opening, our middle lower order was too weak and i beleive it was so thats why Lara has dropped down the order. With Lara now dropping down to number 5/6 and filling in Chanders old role i now have no problems with Chanders opening. He and Gayle seem to be a fine combination.

With Sarwan, Bravo, Morton, Lara occupying 3,4,5,6 in whichever order it has given us a more depth in the middle order and three of the batsmen are fully comfortable against spin which is very good and all are comfortable against pace.

The only reservation i do have is that we are only playing 2 frontline pace bowlers- Taylor and Bradshaw. If we bowl first then we will be okay because we can chase down any reasonable target with our 9 batsman, however if we are defending a total i think we will eventually get found out. I really believe we need to bring in Collymore for Dwayne Smith. Collymore will save more runs with his bowling than Dwayne Smith will score with his batting.

I have nothing against Baugh but if we are going to put our best team on the park then Ramdin has to bat at 8. But im quite content to let Baugh have his chance because it will make Ramdin have to raise his game to get back in the team.

Offline NYtriniwhiteboy..

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2006, 02:49:09 PM »
interesting points but I believe that the trend with the selection of the side is to go with those who can contribute something at both ends batting and bowling. Thus I cannot see that Collymore will be given the chance over Smith. Smith although often underperforming with the bat can also get in a couple decent overs. And from that I believe the selectors will keep him in over collymore.
I too would like to see Ramdin get in the side but as you said this lets him know that his place is not secure and he shall have to work hard to get back in which can only be a good thing for West Indies if he gets better and better.
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Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2006, 02:56:21 PM »
I agree that the selectors will keep Dwayne Smith in the team at the loss of Collymore but i feel it will be a mistake. I  just hope it does not cost us in the final.

I am saying that the batting line up is long enough to accomodate Collymore. If Collymore comes in for Dwayne Smith then the line up would be-

Gayle, Chanders, Bravo, Sarwan, Morton, Lara, Samuels, Baugh, Bradshaw, Taylor, Collymore

There would be enough batting in that line up to either post or chase a total, and also the bowling would have an extra cutting edge.

Collymore must be one of the most under rated cricketers ever!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 02:58:51 PM by Remie »

Offline NYtriniwhiteboy..

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2006, 03:00:41 PM »
I am on the fence on this. Becuase I see Collymore as one of our best bowlers and definitely more consistent. But I not sure if he is good to trouble batsmen enough to truly help our position by much more than Smith overall...
Let's just say I glad is not me to make the decision!
You are quite right that our batting goes quite deep on paper. But as we also know once a wicket falls it seems another two or so is almost inevitable and thus the batting doesn't seem as deep again.
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Offline Organic

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2006, 03:22:24 PM »
I am on the fence on this. Becuase I see Collymore as one of our best bowlers and definitely more consistent. But I not sure if he is good to trouble batsmen enough to truly help our position by much more than Smith overall...
Let's just say I glad is not me to make the decision!
You are quite right that our batting goes quite deep on paper. But as we also know once a wicket falls it seems another two or so is almost inevitable and thus the batting doesn't seem as deep again.
also u guy not takinginto consideration the types of pitches they playing on. thus far the pitches werent the best batting pitches so sensible bowling is all that needed for most part. not the ability to bowl real "good" and since they pitches werent great batting pitches u needed more depth in your batting line up even if its on paper alone. u need depth there.
colloymore and batting is like (INSERT NAME) TALKIGN SENSW, U COULD HOPE FOR IT ALL YUH WANT BUT U KNWO IT EH HAPPENING ONE ASS ;D
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2006, 03:37:00 PM »
McGrath isnt going to score runs either but he is the first name on Australia's teamsheet. Also it does not matter what pitch Australia are playing on, he will be in the team. Collymore should always be in our team, on a bowlers pitch he will get wickets, and on flat pitches he will tie batsmen down.

Picking 9 batsman is for teams that have poor batsmen higher up the order who you have no faith in. We have had a lot of poor batsmen up the order for the last 5 years but now that we have some quality batsmen with a decent batting order it is time for us to step up the game and play three front line bowlers bearing in mind that Bradshaw can bat.

When we have played only two front line bowlers we have never consistently won a lot of matches we have only acheived short term success. The most successful ODI teams have never gone into matches with just two front line bowlers. We have now got the talent, we should use it.



Offline Organic

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2006, 03:44:40 PM »
McGrath isnt going to score runs either but he is the first name on Australia's teamsheet. Also it does not matter what pitch Australia are playing on, he will be in the team. Collymore should always be in our team, on a bowlers pitch he will get wickets, and on flat pitches he will tie batsmen down.

Picking 9 batsman is for teams that have poor batsmen higher up the order who you have no faith in. We have had a lot of poor batsmen up the order for the last 5 years but now that we have some quality batsmen with a decent batting order it is time for us to step up the game and play three front line bowlers bearing in mind that Bradshaw can bat.

When we have played only two front line bowlers we have never consistently won a lot of matches we have only acheived short term success. The most successful ODI teams have never gone into matches with just two front line bowlers. We have now got the talent, we should use it



granted but that was when the batmen were consistent....they still as ws seen today nto consistent enough. we prone to collapse.
and as i said on these pitches......i think u need more batting. at any rate mc grath doesnt always be on the australia team fella. they dont play people because of what they did, thye play them cause they in form. or in terms of batsmen to help them get back in form, but even then they dont prolong it to much or bring the person back in when they are nearing form.
u ahve to take cricket series by series to an extent if u ahve a winnign formula then cool but u have to pick teams accroding to the condistions also while still trying to keep yuh players in form out i de middle. and i still think fidel whough have raw pace and talent...still to way ward, and in experienced- more experienced batsmen know how to handle him.
but i am asking now....besides collowmore which other bolwer would u ahve in our odi side....besides the ones who in INDIA NOW?
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2006, 04:11:24 PM »
McGrath isnt going to score runs either but he is the first name on Australia's teamsheet. Also it does not matter what pitch Australia are playing on, he will be in the team. Collymore should always be in our team, on a bowlers pitch he will get wickets, and on flat pitches he will tie batsmen down.

Picking 9 batsman is for teams that have poor batsmen higher up the order who you have no faith in. We have had a lot of poor batsmen up the order for the last 5 years but now that we have some quality batsmen with a decent batting order it is time for us to step up the game and play three front line bowlers bearing in mind that Bradshaw can bat.

When we have played only two front line bowlers we have never consistently won a lot of matches we have only acheived short term success. The most successful ODI teams have never gone into matches with just two front line bowlers. We have now got the talent, we should use it



granted but that was when the batmen were consistent....they still as ws seen today nto consistent enough. we prone to collapse.
and as i said on these pitches......i think u need more batting. at any rate mc grath doesnt always be on the australia team fella. they dont play people because of what they did, thye play them cause they in form. or in terms of batsmen to help them get back in form, but even then they dont prolong it to much or bring the person back in when they are nearing form.
u ahve to take cricket series by series to an extent if u ahve a winnign formula then cool but u have to pick teams accroding to the condistions also while still trying to keep yuh players in form out i de middle. and i still think fidel whough have raw pace and talent...still to way ward, and in experienced- more experienced batsmen know how to handle him.
but i am asking now....besides collowmore which other bolwer would u ahve in our odi side....besides the ones who in INDIA NOW?

The only three frontline bowlers that are worthy of a place in the side are Taylor, Bradshaw and Collymore.

I have not mentioned Edwards or any other bowler for that matter, as there are no other frontline bowlers apart from Collymore that would be a more effective option than Dwayne Smith. That is why i have only called Collymore's name.

Dwayne Smith does not make us any more anti-prone to collapses.

And when McGrath is match fit he is always in the Australia side.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 04:43:15 PM by Remie »

Offline Jefferz

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2006, 06:27:27 PM »
I must say... for the first time in a long time... despite the inckling individual problems with certain players consistency... I generally find this each player compliments eachother nicely... I like the balance... where one lapses the other picks up the slack... They are working well together and for once I can confidently say... "Doh fix wuh eh broke."
since ah born or at least circa Copa Caribe

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2006, 06:39:41 PM »
I think after a while the success of a team goes beyond just the personnel. I think a couple of the guys on this board have already mentioned the team chemistry, in fact even reading the things Gayle, Sarwan, Taylor or Lara has said during this tournament you get the same feeling.

Based on the stats, I think Remie's points are more than fair, however I think when you add up fielding, bowling and batting you might find that Smith will still give us a bit more. Collymore is a liability in the field and with Bradshaw already there it makes no sense having two.

Also, it is a bit unfair to compare McGrath and his contribution to Collymore; also keeping in mind that Australia's other bowlers contribute much more with the bat than ours so they can afford to keep McGrath in the team strictly for his bowling. Unfortunately we are not so blessed. Australia has their strengths that they play to and we need to find and play to ours.

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 06:55:02 PM »
I think after a while the success of a team goes beyond just the personnel. I think a couple of the guys on this board have already mentioned the team chemistry, in fact even reading the things Gayle, Sarwan, Taylor or Lara has said during this tournament you get the same feeling.

Based on the stats, I think Remie's points are more than fair, however I think when you add up fielding, bowling and batting you might find that Smith will still give us a bit more. Collymore is a liability in the field and with Bradshaw already there it makes no sense having two.

Also, it is a bit unfair to compare McGrath and his contribution to Collymore; also keeping in mind that Australia's other bowlers contribute much more with the bat than ours so they can afford to keep McGrath in the team strictly for his bowling. Unfortunately we are not so blessed. Australia has their strengths that they play to and we need to find and play to ours.

well said bredda, but i feel marlon samuels can sit for collymore simply bc colly is a wicketaker and despite his short comings in the field i think we could go with taylor, colly and bradshaw, bc our batting is deep enough as it is....

TrinInfinite

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2006, 06:58:33 PM »
I must admit that i was very sceptical of Chanderpaul opening the innings at first because i felt that with him opening, our middle lower order was too weak and i beleive it was so thats why Lara has dropped down the order. With Lara now dropping down to number 5/6 and filling in Chanders old role i now have no problems with Chanders opening. He and Gayle seem to be a fine combination.

With Sarwan, Bravo, Morton, Lara occupying 3,4,5,6 in whichever order it has given us a more depth in the middle order and three of the batsmen are fully comfortable against spin which is very good and all are comfortable against pace.

The only reservation i do have is that we are only playing 2 frontline pace bowlers- Taylor and Bradshaw. If we bowl first then we will be okay because we can chase down any reasonable target with our 9 batsman, however if we are defending a total i think we will eventually get found out. I really believe we need to bring in Collymore for Dwayne Smith. Collymore will save more runs with his bowling than Dwayne Smith will score with his batting.

I have nothing against Baugh but if we are going to put our best team on the park then Ramdin has to bat at 8. But im quite content to let Baugh have his chance because it will make Ramdin have to raise his game to get back in the team.

this is what i was trying to relay to alot of people but they didnt listen, for the last 5 years chanders hated opening the innings, this is why i called for ganga, but even 4 years ago i said, chanders could open the batting, he has the temparament for it, hes level headed and doesnt get phased, plus he is rock solid in defense, right now im trying to figure how our test side will look like with 6 trinis coming in.... ???

Offline Organic

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2006, 07:14:32 PM »
I think after a while the success of a team goes beyond just the personnel. I think a couple of the guys on this board have already mentioned the team chemistry, in fact even reading the things Gayle, Sarwan, Taylor or Lara has said during this tournament you get the same feeling.

Based on the stats, I think Remie's points are more than fair, however I think when you add up fielding, bowling and batting you might find that Smith will still give us a bit more. Collymore is a liability in the field and with Bradshaw already there it makes no sense having two.

Also, it is a bit unfair to compare McGrath and his contribution to Collymore; also keeping in mind that Australia's other bowlers contribute much more with the bat than ours so they can afford to keep McGrath in the team strictly for his bowling. Unfortunately we are not so blessed. Australia has their strengths that they play to and we need to find and play to ours.

well said bredda, but i feel marlon samuels can sit for collymore simply bc colly is a wicketaker and despite his short comings in the field i think we could go with taylor, colly and bradshaw, bc our batting is deep enough as it is....
a;;yuh forgetting dwane bravo?? ??? ??? ???
isnt he a bolwer whata llyuh feel the pic himf or his abtting.. i wouldnt say that prior to this series is his bowling and feliding.
so i eh think we need collowmore.
we have enough for the present situation.
maybe he gettign some licks but he also taking important and timely wickets. and guess what he eh to bad with the bat.
batting still is our weakness. not bowling. even if w ehave a bad day witht he ball, we are more likely to have batting collapse.
so having bradshaw, talyor and BRAVO in the team aint  a bad bowling  line up, plus smith and gayle and samuels on present form. dais 6 bowlers to chose form..and if de shit really hit the fan..give sars an over..lol
so i like de team..u could replace bradshaw with colloymorw..but brother colloymore aint no big wicket taker like allyuh makin him seem.

Colloymore
             mat    balls    runs    wkts    bbi    bbm    ave    econ    sr    4    5    10
ODIs     73     3496     2551     72     5/51     5/51     35.43     4.37     48.55     1     1     0


Bravo
             mat    balls    runs    wkts    bbi    bbm    ave    econ    sr    4    5    10
ODIs     54     2060     1813     54     3/14     3/14     33.57     5.28     38.14     0     0     0


samuels

ODIs     73     2348     1885     47     3/25     3/25     40.10     4.81     49.95     0     0     0



Colloymores ODI record doesnt show as great ah variation compared WITH THE OTHER GUES OWN.
AND WE BOTH KNOW THESE GUYS CAN BAT. which is an added bonus..no???


« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 07:22:13 PM by The Polished Hoe »
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2006, 02:30:11 AM »
Samuels and Bravo are certainties in the squad. There is no reason to even think of replacing these two.

The 12 man always ends up fielding for most of the game so Dwayne Smith does not need to be in the starting 11 to field.

In the last 9 ODI games (since May) where we have fielded second we have lost as many as 6 games and won only 3. Therefore, the phase 'if it aint broke dont fix it' surely does not apply here. My theory would be lets fix it before its too late.

Because seriously guys, its okay if you bat second with our current line up, but you cannot consistently win games bowling second with this current line up. In my opinion it just needs that little tweak and we will be able to win games consistently both batting or bowling second.

Admitedly Collymore's ODI stats are not great but over the last few years he has turned into one of the world's best bowlers, and that is no over exaggeration. The top batsmen across the world are probably laughing that they dont have to face Collymore.

Offline fishs

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2006, 03:46:27 AM »

 But who yuh dropping to bring in Colleymore in the final 11.

 Smith ?
 Samuels ?

Don't entirely agree with your argument here. Yes if its broke fix it , but is Colleymore the paste ?
At this tournament on these wickets I say no.
His pace is simply too slow and his bowling brain is not as cranked up as Bradshaw.
Smith and Samuel are worht more than him in this particular tournament in all departments, batting , bowling and fielding.

I do agree that he is a good bowler and for tests where the captain has more time and field placement leverage to set up batsmen he is good and at this point I would pencil him into my test team with no problem.

As soon as we can find another speedster or 2 with the control young Taylor is showing now though, I think it will be the end of Collymore.

I would like to see Edwards adjust his motion a bit by releasing the ball a bit more from an upright stance and I by this I don't mean him changing his slinging style entirely, it's just that I think he would get more variation and control if he can release from close to his center. Then with his pace ......
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Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 07:08:29 AM »
I said replace Dwayne Smith with Collymore from the start. I dont know why you all bring other names into the equation?

I know you guys are happy at the moment because we have won a few games but you have to stay one step ahead of the game. With the resources available our team can still go up a level.

If you think Collymore is too slow for good batting pitches then think again. Check the figures against England when they were coming hard at us. This is just one of many examples but it is the most recent.


                         O     M    R     W   Econ
FH Edwards         7      0    56    0    8.00  (3nb, 2w)
JE Taylor             8.3   0    64    0    7.52  (3w)
CD Collymore       10    1    43    0    4.30  (1nb)
CH Gayle             10    1    31    3    3.10 
MN Samuels        10     0    45    2    4.50 
DJ Bravo              3     0    26    1    8.66  (1w)

When everything was going wrong Lara knew he could throw the ball to Collymore and he will control one end. Collymore and Bradshaw are still the only two pace bowlers you can always rely on to give you an economical full 10 overs any day of the week. That is why we should look to fit Collymore in the team at the expense of Dwayne Smith now that the West Indies batting is performing to the standard it should be.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 07:50:54 AM by Remie »

Offline real madness

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 09:33:52 AM »
Remie,
I see yuh point about collymore vs dwayne smith...I agree with yuh for d emost part..I think the bowling need to be a little deeper..the way the selectors moving if bastmen start to struggle the batting might go all de way down to 11 than the current 9...the selected batsmen should pull their weight so the best bowling attack can be selected.

However, i feel collymore is being left out because of his fielding so when u look at the overall value, smith might be the best option.
If i was a selector i would go for collymore and leave out smith but the team is doing well so messing with the chemistry may lead to problems.

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2006, 11:14:05 AM »
I don't think there's an absolute fix for this. There are points for dropping Smith for Collymore, but there are quite a few points for keeping things the way they are as well. As someone said earlier, I am glad that I am not the one to make the decision.  ::) While there are things that can be tweaked, there are short term effects that need to be considered and I think that is why they will probably continue to go with the 2 bowlers.

Here's something interesting I found on the Chanders and Gayle opening partnership.
http://content-wi.cricinfo.com/columns/content/story/266709.html
Another interesting part of it is that Gayle and Hinds are statistically a good partnership as well.

Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2006, 11:24:49 AM »
This is not the first time i have argued for Collymore, and im sure it will not be the last. I remember in 2004 outside Lords cricket ground in England, i started arguing with Viv Richards about why Collymore had not been initially selected for the tour of England. At the end of the first days play England were 390/3 and our bowling attack was Collins, Best, Edwards, Banks and Bravo and at the time Viv Richards was in and around the selection panel. I saw him outside the ground and i told him that whoever selected the team was a disgrace and that Collymore is our best bowler. I dont know who the actual selectors were but Viv Richards seemed to think that it was okay because Collymore was coming over for the next Test match once the selectors realised that they had messed up big time. I told him it was not good enough. In all matches since that Test Collymore has shown what a world class bowler he is. Even to this day i believe Collymore is our best bowler :beermug:
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 11:36:10 AM by Remie »

Offline dwolfman

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2006, 02:13:38 PM »
For test matches there is no way a fit Collymore should not be on the team. Talk done!

Offline Remie

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Re: Make up of the side
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2006, 11:19:43 AM »
I have found a team that can accomodate both Dwayne Smith and Collymore in the same team-

Gayle, Chanderpaul, Bravo, Sarwan, R.Hinds, Lara, Dwayne Smith, Ramdin, Bradshaw, Taylor, Collymore

If we replace Morton, Samuels and Baugh with R.Hinds, Dwayne Smith and Ramdin we will still get 20 overs of spin from Gayle and R.Hinds, we would have our three specialist seamers, and the batting could be possibly stronger. It is just a thought. I am not necessarily saying we should pick this team, but it would be worth calling up R.Hinds into the squad for this possibilty, rather than having guys like Edwards in the squad who are realistically never going to perform.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 11:25:02 AM by Remie »

 

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