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Offline dreamer

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Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« on: November 25, 2006, 01:14:54 PM »
Fellas, We all have watched Trinidad struggle to find a defensive answer to different varieties of opposition and, not only that, we have played many sides that to different degrees smother our midfield.

Could some analysts on this board explore the off-side trap how it affects us in the context of our unique peculiarities and our adaptability to it, and the issue of playing or playing against a high defense that concentrates the midfield leaving little room (I believe Mexico does this to us). With the off-side trap, are we competent or too shaky to risk using it? Please refer to our history of using it and whether we have the kind of leadership in defense to handle it. Also, which side/coach in the PFL is using it and using it well. Since the strike squad with Clayton and Dexter Francis as stoppers I have not noticed us using it much. Are our players like Sancho, Dog, Lawrence too slow for this system? (I suspect yes) and what about our new-prospect players that we are scouting abroad and in the PFL and under 20.

This is an issue which I never noticed indiscussion on this board and I wonder if there is a hidden lesson in this topic for us. We need to think  a little outside the box (but really and truly this is football 101)  as our Socawarriors seem to be congenitally vulnerable in defense and it affects all our other plans to go forward with confidence as we are naturally atacking but not naturally defensive in my opinion.

Gimme some hope nah. I eh seeing such great news for our football on de horizon right now and since dat cut-arse in Austria, is like I doh feel that we on top of things in the back and dem little youths in USA at the South Carolina camp are probably very underexposed to be learning last minute new tricks
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 01:21:14 PM by dreamer »
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Offline Remie

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2006, 02:57:05 PM »
To play the offside trap or the high back line successfully you need a back four that know each others games inside out and play regularly with each other as well as recovery pace. Our back four seems to vary game by game at this moment in time.

I dont think it would be wise for us at this stage, because if you play the offside trap and get it wrong youre dead.

I have never been a fan of playing with high back lines or playing the offside trap because i see it as too much of a risk. But i definately see youre point about us being smothered in midfield.

Given that our centre back pairing are not lightning quick so playing a high line is not possible, my suggestion to the smothering in midfield would be for our full backs to push forward more when we are in possession of the ball to create the extra men in midfield. Therefore our full backs would need to be comfortable in possession of the ball.

I think two good full backs are what we need, because i like the look of Sancho and Lawrence as the two centre backs and i would not look to change that partnership. For the right back i would mould Spann because he seems to have all the attributes. For left back i suppose we have to hope A.John improves his attacking skills and ball possession.

Anybody know any good left backs coming through for the future?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 03:01:10 PM by Remie »

TrinInfinite

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2006, 03:10:35 PM »
The offside trap has to be practised as a unit, they must move in unison with eachother. I think  it is more than speed, it has to do with the intelligence of the defenders, in that they have to read the strikers and midfielders well, our defenders have to have that instinct in order to read the opposing team and what they are about to do.

The offside trap is vulnerable against players who can play with their backs to defenders and beat defenders one on one, simply bc the offside trap creates space between the defence and the goal, a hard-working forward, which is aggressive and links with the midfield and could also beat his man and turn would have no problems with the offsie trap. However a forward who waits for the mid to pass him the ball and is not moving with and without the ball, cannot exploit those defensive holes bc when the striker moves, so to does the defence.

I don't think TT needs a stopper if we have a solid back 4 who knows how to play together and in unison. We need  players who are intelligent defenders and could link with the midfield to build the attack.

The offside trap is effective if the defenders movement as a unit are well timed, good coordiantion in training and on the field of play, good communication amongst the defenders and also if the keeper is not off his line, leaving himself vulnerable. The player who is trying to pass to the striker must be dispossesed to begin with, we need a workman in the midfield to do this but also a workman who is able to hold possession and also pass well. I think the key is having a utility player in the mid or defence bc of his ability to pass and possess the ball.

The dutch were big proponents of using the offside trap, when my cousin clayton played for ajax, it was a signature for them to trap their teams every game but at crucial times of the game, in the first 10 mins, than again before half-time, at the beginning of half time and at the ending of the game. The Dutch football program in general have what I would say perfected the offside trap but when they play teams like brazil, who have forwards that run and can dribble and beat their defenders, it is harder to employ bc strikers who have good movement with and without the ball creates space for themselves and their teammates, negating the effectiveness of the offside trap. However, in the 1974 world cup the dutch capitalized on the offside-trap and reaked havoc on the brazillians.

I think in order for the trap to be effective you need to attack the ball itself, rather than just running upfield, running through the passing lane and in effect cut it off from the opposition, the purpose is to win back the ball and launch a counter attack, in essence. Putting pressure on the mid is always key in executing the offside trap. The dutch have done it the best, next to the germans, I wonder what wim's approach will be with the current team, bc we need defenders who can dribble, pass and possess, a utility man may be the answer.

God is de BOSS....
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 03:14:21 PM by TrinInfinite »

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2006, 05:25:23 PM »
Interesting comments. Sounds like we eh quite up to it to be using an off-side trap. Ah trying to say it nicely.

 Ah could tell yuh de first ting dem coaches doing when they spy on our team is to see our defensive system, how high, how deep and flat we play and whether we usin the trap and dais it. Watching Stern and Carlos is secondary and relatively unimportant. The key to bringing us down is dissecting our defense. Within 2-3 minutes T&T always a goal down. Very frustrating and it derails all the good offesive plans we might have had.
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Offline Remie

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2006, 05:47:07 PM »
Its true our backline does not have the pace to play a high line but we just have to deal with it. It does not have to neccessarily be too much of a negative. Just look at two of the best clubs in the world. Chelsea and Liverpool both are up there with the best defences in club football and they do not play a high back line either. Terry and Carvalho do not have great pace, Hyppia and Caragher do not have great pace either. They are all excellent readers of the game. Their respective managers just set the team up in a way that best accomdates the players at their disposal. If that means playing the back line deep then so be it.

Lawrence and Sancho are looking like a solid pair. When Whitley and Birchall play they give good cover for the defence. As i said before we just need two full backs that are good in possesion so that they can join up and create the extra men in midfield when we are in possession. To find these full backs is easier said than done, but in Spann i believe he is the answer to the right full back position.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2006, 06:05:42 PM »
Remie, your points are well developed. I sympathize deeply with the need for hunting for fullbacks as it is a crusade with me on that issue. Is like we have a serious shortage boy. Ask people to call for candidates for midfield and everybody rattling off names, TI calling for Hardest etc, but enquire about fullbacks   .............................................. is jess silence. No names. This is serious.

Imagine a whole set of PFL teams and nutten good to offer. Dey try Keyeno, Jack, Anton Pierre, Atiba and is pure kill vibes ah sensing. The under 20's sounding kinda immature and I hearing reports of slowness and clumsiness so nutten on de horizon with them but I have to see for myself. The good "intelligent" players that we used to have were of the shorter variety like Thoeodore, Shawn Garcia. There was alot of derogatory talk on this website whenever "Bertillle hornchild" was mentioned and in any case I hear he injured and not playing. Julius James is the only one who caught my eye for the full back role and he eh go in the South Carolina camp anyway. Is like we might as well just lie dong and get slaughtered 4-0 yes, collec' appearance fees and go home

This is an emergency
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TrinInfinite

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2006, 06:26:15 PM »
Remie, your points are well developed. I sympathize deeply with the need for hunting for fullbacks as it is a crusade with me on that issue. Is like we have a serious shortage boy. Ask people to call for candidates for midfield and everybody rattling off names, TI calling for Hardest etc, but enquire about fullbacks .............................................. is jess silence. No names. This is serious.

Imagine a whole set of PFL teams and nutten good to offer. Dey try Keyeno, Jack, Anton Pierre, Atiba and is pure kill vibes ah sensing. The under 20's sounding kinda immature and I hearing reports of slowness and clumsiness so nutten on de horizon with them but I have to see for myself. The good "intelligent" players that we used to have were of the shorter variety like Thoeodore, Shawn Garcia. There was alot of derogatory talk on this website whenever "Bertillle hornchild" was mentioned and in any case I hear he injured and not playing. Julius James is the only one who caught my eye for the full back role and he eh go in the South Carolina camp anyway. Is like we might as well just lie dong and get slaughtered 4-0 yes, collec' appearance fees and go home

This is an emergency

clyde leon is said to be one of the best utility players in the pro league currently, i think he has the capability to play full back bc he has speed and could pass and dribble, however his skills in the air are unknown to me bc i have only got scattered info about him since someone mentioned him on the board. Sancho is good in the air and ground, i feel confident with him in the back, i think a player like edwards can play an attacking right back, with sancho , daniel on the left and maybe leon also, tallest will be too old and atiba is not ready yet, i dont think he will ever be ready, I think people are forgetting about players like anton pierre.

its amazing how fellahs on the board would praise certain people but when i post something of substance theres no comment, different strokes for different folks.... the hypocrisy continues, another reason why we dont have the best team on the field playing for our nation.

In regarding your comment about full backs, what are the qualities you identify in being a good full back? Bc right now we need a midfield who could actually create and possess the ball until our defence is fixed, or until we find the right combo.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2006, 06:46:23 PM »
Ti, we need fullbacks urgently much more than midfielders even though our midfield has weakened with the passing over of the baton by Latas and to some extent Yorkie. I used to be on a campaign for wingers and still am but the discovery of Nigel Daniel to compete with Avery has given us 2 options on the left wing back, Cyd and is still to find a true right wing back competitor. We could settle for Spann but dais not how it supposed to be. Carlos should stay up front and stop covering for our weaknesses in the back. We should aim for 3 wing backs each for left and right. Once the defense wukkin, Carlos, SBirch, Whitley, Samuel would look much better. A bad defense makes the whole team look bad

About the full backs. Dog gone, Cox like he done, Sancho is our best fullback right now and Lawrence is needed still for strength in the air and his value went up when he began scoring  ut they both getting into that older age group. There are no other major experienced candidates. For our fullback talent search I am looking for tall, strong in the air, non-clumsy, good-with-ball-at-their-feet Maldini type players or former good-in-the-air strikers with speed who have been converted ,like Sol Campbell. They must have composure, good at distributing the ball, tough tacklers and can bail out the midfield when smothered. It would be nice if they could have a shot for some variety. That's why I was always a fan of Rougier in defense but it never got currency on this board and like is too late now. Defenders have a long life span and their is no need to hurriedly retire them unless they really slowing down and hobbling with injury after injury.

Are there any over the hill big strikers in Trinidad who can be converted like a Campbell? If yes, then yuh have ball skills, ball distribution, some speed, heading skills and shots all in one
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Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2006, 07:04:30 PM »
By the way, I don't kow much about this Clyde Leon. Wasn't he undergoing an operation or something? And was was his skill set?
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Offline weary1969

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2006, 07:29:08 PM »
when did Marvin announce his retirement I missed it. th eman willbe 31 in Dec. He playing every week full game I eh hear nothing about any injury. As you indicated there ain't a list of replacements so why right the man off?
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Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2006, 07:38:12 PM »
His knee cyah take de excessive jamming of international football and brutal rigourous training. Dais why he demoted himslelf to a low tier club (where he began) so people will be grateful for what he feel he could do, as his worth is still high even though it is gradualy falling. I didn't say that Pastor Dog eh go say suddenly that God told him to show up at the Gold Cup before his knee give out, but doh count on it. His career is PRACTICALLY over  and we better plan as if it is so. Dais Trinidad problem, no plan for successor ship, no grooming. A sudden vacuum and then we deflate as if we didn't see it coming.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 09:33:23 PM by dreamer »
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TrinInfinite

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2006, 07:39:07 PM »
By the way, I don't kow much about this Clyde Leon. Wasn't he undergoing an operation or something? And was was his skill set?

dont know about a surgery breds, but he is an excellent utility player from what i have heard and what people also saw in the japan game, i will be watching that game soon and will make my own judgement, but i totally agree with you about we need more fullbacks, its a must on our christmas list for wim, but we need the midfield also clicking bc right now we lacking badly in both departments, leon is skilled with the ball and can defend, hes young and has pace, he could also pass and play any position, hence hes a utility man, as for in the air, i would be lying if i even made a comment, i am onlt going on what i have heard from many sources but i will find out about how good he is in the air...

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2006, 07:42:44 PM »
Ok TI. Coolo breezo. There was an artilcle on Oct 23 where it was said that he is going for knee ligament surgery.
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Offline Remie

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2006, 05:55:34 AM »
First of all il just expand on what i mean by a full back because i was brought up learning football in England so you guys may have a different definition of the full back. In a 4-4-2 the two central defenders are the centre backs, i.e. Lawrence and Sancho, and Andrews when he played, and the two full backs left and right are the guys that play either side of the centre backs. I just wanted to clear that up cos i wasnt sure if you guys were understanding completely what i was saying.

Moving on to what attributes i want a full back to have-

Defensive positioning so that he can have a good understanding with the rest of the back four and keeper
Stamina so that he can run up and down the touch line all 90 mins
Good in the air so that he can deal with cross balls
Good technically in possession of the ball so that he can link up with the midfield
Pace so that he can cover in behind the centre backs
Good crossing ability so that when he gets forward he can provide good service

When i call Spann for right back i can see him potentially possessing all of these attributes with some hard work and good training, tactically and physically. Whether mentally he is up to it at the highest level i cannot say, time will tell.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2006, 09:30:20 AM »
Yeah Remie, I made a slip there and referred to our centre backs as fullbacks. Point taken. I believe TI might have made the error and I used the word after that. I hope he notices the point and everybody is back on the same page.

I was actuall interested in our center backs playing a little higher up to compress the midfield and smother the central american fancy touch football provided that we had the organization to pull that risky venture off
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Offline Remie

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2006, 12:04:33 PM »
Yeah Remie, I made a slip there and referred to our centre backs as fullbacks. Point taken. I believe TI might have made the error and I used the word after that. I hope he notices the point and everybody is back on the same page.

I was actuall interested in our center backs playing a little higher up to compress the midfield and smother the central american fancy touch football provided that we had the organization to pull that risky venture off

Yep, i understood what you meant, and my overall answer was that our centre backs do not have the pace to player further up the field (which is not neccessarily a negative- look at Terry and Carvalho or Carragher and Hyppia). So we will just have to stick with playing a deep back line like Chelsea and Liverpool do. Therefore, in my opinion, full backs who are comfortable in possession that join up with the midfield is a better option than the centre backs being closer to the midfield in T&Ts case.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2006, 12:06:39 PM by Remie »

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2006, 12:13:45 PM »
For future conversation I think wing backs is a MUCH better and more cool term to use than fullbacks and it conveys their role better too. Nobody talks like that (re fullbacks) except old doddering coaches in England from the George Best era ;D

But seriously. We always use the advancing wing back ploy (pushing into wide midfield) and we get in trouble in the counter attack as our centrebacks or stoppers lie too deep leaving room for the counter attack to snake down our wings (in the space vacted by Gray or Avery) without being offside
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Offline Lightning

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2006, 12:18:54 PM »
Changes in the offside law in late 90s and additional clarifications of how the law should be interpreted, specifically regarding interfering with play and the newer even is onside interpratation, have made the high offside trap a thing of the past. I doubt you'd see any world class team playing a high restraining line as their main defensive tactic.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 01:22:14 PM by Lightning »
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Offline Remie

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2006, 12:24:36 PM »
For future conversation I think wing backs is a MUCH better and more cool term to use than fullbacks and it conveys their role better too. Nobody talks like that (re fullbacks) except old doddering coaches in England from the George Best era ;D

But seriously. We always use the advancing wing back ploy (pushing into wide midfield) and we get in trouble in the counter attack as our centrebacks or stoppers lie too deep leaving room for the counter attack to snake down our wings (in the space vacted by Gray or Avery) without being offside

In England we call them wing backs when you back a 3-5-2, i.e. when you play with 3 centre backs the two guys either side of the 3 are the wing backs, thats why il use the term full backs in a 4-4-2. It differentiates between the formations and their roles in the team. To be honest i think the majority of the major football playing nations use the terms in this way.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Defensive tactics as it affects de Warriors
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2006, 12:50:23 PM »
Ok, but on the other side of the coin as it affects our offense now, has anybody noticed how high the Mexican defensive line is when they are playing us?  Is like we in a big stadium forced to play small goal (which they like). If they can do it...... and it seems to stifle us........?
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