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Offline Warlord

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2006, 06:05:35 PM »
Anybody who doh know the Fr. influnece on a TT Carnival and want to discuss the topic should simply be ignored.

To acknowledge the Africans and ignore the Fr. is as stupid as acknowledgin the Fr. but ignoring the Africans.

The Fr. were influencing TT's Carinval for about a century before the African influence began.

Warlord is simply acknowledging what facts he WANTS to.

VB

So based on your logic, Carnival is part of French culture? ??? How many other French nations you see had Carnival :rotfl:
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Offline Toussaint

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2006, 06:10:03 PM »
No you are missing my point.. I never said that you couldn't have an influence from the French because you weren't colonised by them. What I did say is was that The Spanish has most likley had a much larger influence on your culture since you have been under their rule for so long. I mean look at how long the Spanish controlled you...are you going to tell me that the French influence is bigger ???

Nobody was comparing French influence to Spanish influence until you started in this thread. You bringing that up is like bringing up the fact that Trinidad have plenty Mango when people talking about orange. Also...this was your original statement.

I don't think you have any ties whatsoever to the French/Haitians. If anything, St Lucia, Dominica, Guadeloupe, Martinique have far more ties  to the French culture and language but not Trinidad brethren ;)

Whether Haiti is closer to St. Lucia or Dominica says nothing about the relationship between TnT and Haiti, that is an irrelevant comparison because no one was saying that TnT and Haiti are the closest of relatives. The point being made was that there is French influence in Haiti and also in Trinidad, a nice and simple discussion.

Throughout this thread people have been giving examples that TnT culture has French influence without discounting the fact that there is also Spanish influence and without making any measure of how much Spanish or French because nobody believes that they are mutually exclusive. You have taken the tack of discounting the French influence based on your understandably limited knowledge if TnT history.

Exactly how much of a cultural link there is between Haiti and Trinidad and Tobago? I fail to see it except for the slaves coming ova to Trinidad and Tobago during the times of Spanish colonisation. The folklore that many posts mentioned here are as a result of stories from slave migration that's it.

Every Caribbean nation probably have their stories from their slave history. Anywhere African slaves went in the " New World" they have stories and some folklore dated back to their African upbringing. We have it in Jamaica as well....as a matter of fact we have a few Anansi stories similar to what Trinidad has...does that mean we're French influenced us too ???

Those are just some examples...There is also Carnival, which is the fountain of so many of our creative arts, almost every word is French, this is not coincidence and Carnival as you well know is very significant tto TnT. It goes far beyond 'nansi stories and folklore.

My point is tho, the culture and customs are more symbolic of your spanish colonisation. I've met people from Trinidad in the US who has hispanic names and had more ties to Spanish yet I've never met anyone of French descent. Even one of my brothers is married to a Trinidadian woman who's First and last name is of spanish origin and she speaks fluent spanish yet she is from Trinidad go figure!

Again nobody was minimizing Spanish influence by commenting on the French. And if you haven't met anyone from TnT of French descent, or if your partner's wife speaks Spanish that is hardly a scientific sampling. There are many french names. In fact if you are a "high colour" mixed person you are likely to be called a "French creole" or a "coco panyol" depending on how you look. Duprey, De Four, Boissiere, Froget, Derieux, Didier, Leblanc, Rousseau are just a few common of French surnames that you'll hear in TnT.




 

Look JDB you are missing my points once again. Let me ask you this, you keep saying that Trinidad & Tobago and Haiti have very close links.

Bredrin,

The slaves that settled in Haiti and other French Caribbean possessions are primarily from West Africa. If you know western Africa, they speak what Language "French".  Ghana, Ivory Coast, Benin, Sierra Leone and other w. African nations are all French cultured. These are the people that went to Haiti and other french Caribbean possessions. The people that went to Trinidad and Tobago from Haiti and other French Caribbean islands were slaves from W. Africa.

They brought with them them their language, folklore and culture which was already established before they got to TNT. That is the only reason that you have some similarity in the folkore, but not so much in Cultural aspects. You need to learn Trinidad and Tobago's history and Haiti's history to fully understand it.

And as for Carnival, that is not French influenced...it is of West African traditional culture. The drums, steelpan music can trace it's origins back to W.Africa and not Haiti.

Take a look at Haitians and take a look at people of West Africans and you will see a similarity within their physical composition. Africans from West Africa have distinct features in head shapes, teeth structuring and have higher cheekbones and have much different skin texture.  I know I work in a  software company with a gentleman from the Ivory Coast, and I see the difference.

Ha! physical composition or physical features? ;) You are quite vulnerable there, my friend.
'teeth structuring', 'head shapes'...   ;D You probably believe there is a Haitian ethnic, tribe, or race. You are a funny dude to say the least.

No but you do seem to have alot more in common with West Africans as opposed to someone like myself. :o

I'm of Jamaican indian(coolie) and hispanic/black descent which makes me in all essence look alot different than your peeps! ;D

There you go! I know you wouldn't be able to keep your cool for long and that you would eventually expose your racism!

Yes, I am Black and I am Haitian and I believe that I look like many West-Africans because like them I have dark skin ;D  Guess what? I also look like Yorke, Latapy, Avery John...do you see the connection? ;)

Happy new year, warlord.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 06:15:38 PM by Toussaint »
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Offline JDB

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2006, 06:21:11 PM »
Everything that I mentioned about the French involvement in Trinidad and Tobago is down to excerpts written in a book from one of your own countryman that is available over the internet. So if you are going to try and discredit my points, then you are also discrediting the authors facts and I'm sure he's done far more research than you and me before decising to print his book.

I mentioned nothing about Nigeria. I made mention of the countries under French colonialism at the time and where the vast majority of labour that was sent to the French Caribbean came from. That's not my research but someone that has extensive knowledge in that field that documented that.

You mentioned Ghana, which was never French and fail to acknowledge the fact that most French Colonies in West Africa (with the exception of Senegal) were not established until after the slave trade was at an end.

You have either misunderstood the "excerpts", are taking them out of context or the supposed text is has gross factual innacuracies.

Feel free to quote this reference, I would like to read it.

No but you do seem to have alot more in common with West Africans as opposed to someone like myself. :o

I'm of Jamaican indian(coolie) and hispanic/black descent which makes me in all essence look alot different than your peeps! ;D

Steups. Indian and Spanish people look different to African people ...great insight there.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2006, 06:25:26 PM »
No you are missing my point.. I never said that you couldn't have an influence from the French because you weren't colonised by them. What I did say is was that The Spanish has most likley had a much larger influence on your culture since you have been under their rule for so long. I mean look at how long the Spanish controlled you...are you going to tell me that the French influence is bigger ???

Nobody was comparing French influence to Spanish influence until you started in this thread. You bringing that up is like bringing up the fact that Trinidad have plenty Mango when people talking about orange. Also...this was your original statement.

I don't think you have any ties whatsoever to the French/Haitians. If anything, St Lucia, Dominica, Guadeloupe, Martinique have far more ties  to the French culture and language but not Trinidad brethren ;)

Whether Haiti is closer to St. Lucia or Dominica says nothing about the relationship between TnT and Haiti, that is an irrelevant comparison because no one was saying that TnT and Haiti are the closest of relatives. The point being made was that there is French influence in Haiti and also in Trinidad, a nice and simple discussion.

Throughout this thread people have been giving examples that TnT culture has French influence without discounting the fact that there is also Spanish influence and without making any measure of how much Spanish or French because nobody believes that they are mutually exclusive. You have taken the tack of discounting the French influence based on your understandably limited knowledge if TnT history.

Exactly how much of a cultural link there is between Haiti and Trinidad and Tobago? I fail to see it except for the slaves coming ova to Trinidad and Tobago during the times of Spanish colonisation. The folklore that many posts mentioned here are as a result of stories from slave migration that's it.

Every Caribbean nation probably have their stories from their slave history. Anywhere African slaves went in the " New World" they have stories and some folklore dated back to their African upbringing. We have it in Jamaica as well....as a matter of fact we have a few Anansi stories similar to what Trinidad has...does that mean we're French influenced us too ???

Those are just some examples...There is also Carnival, which is the fountain of so many of our creative arts, almost every word is French, this is not coincidence and Carnival as you well know is very significant tto TnT. It goes far beyond 'nansi stories and folklore.

My point is tho, the culture and customs are more symbolic of your spanish colonisation. I've met people from Trinidad in the US who has hispanic names and had more ties to Spanish yet I've never met anyone of French descent. Even one of my brothers is married to a Trinidadian woman who's First and last name is of spanish origin and she speaks fluent spanish yet she is from Trinidad go figure!

Again nobody was minimizing Spanish influence by commenting on the French. And if you haven't met anyone from TnT of French descent, or if your partner's wife speaks Spanish that is hardly a scientific sampling. There are many french names. In fact if you are a "high colour" mixed person you are likely to be called a "French creole" or a "coco panyol" depending on how you look. Duprey, De Four, Boissiere, Froget, Derieux, Didier, Leblanc, Rousseau are just a few common of French surnames that you'll hear in TnT.




 

Look JDB you are missing my points once again. Let me ask you this, you keep saying that Trinidad & Tobago and Haiti have very close links.

Bredrin,

The slaves that settled in Haiti and other French Caribbean possessions are primarily from West Africa. If you know western Africa, they speak what Language "French".  Ghana, Ivory Coast, Benin, Sierra Leone and other w. African nations are all French cultured. These are the people that went to Haiti and other french Caribbean possessions. The people that went to Trinidad and Tobago from Haiti and other French Caribbean islands were slaves from W. Africa.

They brought with them them their language, folklore and culture which was already established before they got to TNT. That is the only reason that you have some similarity in the folkore, but not so much in Cultural aspects. You need to learn Trinidad and Tobago's history and Haiti's history to fully understand it.

And as for Carnival, that is not French influenced...it is of West African traditional culture. The drums, steelpan music can trace it's origins back to W.Africa and not Haiti.

Take a look at Haitians and take a look at people of West Africans and you will see a similarity within their physical composition. Africans from West Africa have distinct features in head shapes, teeth structuring and have higher cheekbones and have much different skin texture.  I know I work in a  software company with a gentleman from the Ivory Coast, and I see the difference.

Ha! physical composition or physical features? ;) You are quite vulnerable there, my friend.
'teeth structuring', 'head shapes'...   ;D You probably believe there is a Haitian ethnic, tribe, or race. You are a funny dude to say the least.

No but you do seem to have alot more in common with West Africans as opposed to someone like myself. :o

I'm of Jamaican indian(coolie) and hispanic/black descent which makes me in all essence look alot different than your peeps! ;D

There you go! I know you wouldn't be able to keep your cool for long and that you would eventually expose your racism!

Yes, I am Black and I am Haitian and I believe that I look like many West-Africans because like them I have dark skin ;D Happy new year, warlord ;)

No I am not racist, but I am proud of my heritage as anyone else should be. I didn't pick my parents and I'm sure you didn't pick yours too...... so don't turn this into a racist spectacle. I just pointed out what people here can't seem to understand.

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Offline vb

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2006, 08:05:30 PM »
Anybody who doh know the Fr. influnece on a TT Carnival and want to discuss the topic should simply be ignored.

To acknowledge the Africans and ignore the Fr. is as stupid as acknowledgin the Fr. but ignoring the Africans.

The Fr. were influencing TT's Carinval for about a century before the African influence began.

Warlord is simply acknowledging what facts he WANTS to.

VB

So based on your logic, Carnival is part of French culture? ??? How many other French nations you see had Carnival :rotfl:

Boy ah shame for yuh yes.

You obviously need a FULL education on TT, for which I neither have the time nor the patience.

No one says that Carnival in part of the Fr. culture, but rather the Fr. in TT inlfuenced, just like the Africans did AFTER them.

Seein that you have read books on TT, you would know that Carnival was given to most countries by the Roman Catholic Church, ie. Carnivale.

Hence the reason that so many countries have their Carnival at the same dates.

The Fr. in TT took it to a more "party" level, with music, costumes, masks etc. LAWWDD!! We say this already!!

Let me say this slowwwlllyyy for youuuu ...

There is no Carnival in French countries, but TT has a strong Fr. influence byt the local French there. Hence the reason so many terms in our Carnival are FRENCH. The Fr. were doing this a century before teh AFricans starting influencing our Carnival.

When the freed slaves took to the streets and began joining the festivities, the Fr. aristocrats fled to their homes, and the Afrcians then really began a metamorphis of TT Carnival.

You know you just take a good thread and frig it up with your dotishness, and ppl here - myself included replying to u, and encouraging you.

I think you just pretending to be dotish just to get on ppl nerves.

You stop to ask yourself whey Carnvial has so many Fr. words, but no Spanish or African.

VB
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2006, 11:27:29 PM »
Anybody who doh know the Fr. influnece on a TT Carnival and want to discuss the topic should simply be ignored.

To acknowledge the Africans and ignore the Fr. is as stupid as acknowledgin the Fr. but ignoring the Africans.

The Fr. were influencing TT's Carinval for about a century before the African influence began.

Warlord is simply acknowledging what facts he WANTS to.

VB

So based on your logic, Carnival is part of French culture? ??? How many other French nations you see had Carnival :rotfl:

Boy ah shame for yuh yes.

You obviously need a FULL education on TT, for which I neither have the time nor the patience.

No one says that Carnival in part of the Fr. culture, but rather the Fr. in TT inlfuenced, just like the Africans did AFTER them.

Seein that you have read books on TT, you would know that Carnival was given to most countries by the Roman Catholic Church, ie. Carnivale.

Hence the reason that so many countries have their Carnival at the same dates.

The Fr. in TT took it to a more "party" level, with music, costumes, masks etc. LAWWDD!! We say this already!!

Let me say this slowwwlllyyy for youuuu ...

There is no Carnival in French countries, but TT has a strong Fr. influence byt the local French there. Hence the reason so many terms in our Carnival are FRENCH. The Fr. were doing this a century before teh AFricans starting influencing our Carnival.

When the freed slaves took to the streets and began joining the festivities, the Fr. aristocrats fled to their homes, and the Afrcians then really began a metamorphis of TT Carnival.

You know you just take a good thread and frig it up with your dotishness, and ppl here - myself included replying to u, and encouraging you.

I think you just pretending to be dotish just to get on ppl nerves.

You stop to ask yourself whey Carnvial has so many Fr. words, but no Spanish or African.

VB

Yes someone here posted that Carnival was a result of the French influence in Trinidad and Tobago....so you are wrong. Where did the French come from? Did they come from France? The French never colonize Trinidad and Tobago so your so called French influence is down to expatriates from West African descendants who are NOT French but Africans that were part of French Empire during the time of the Slave Trade. During that time, some of those Africans also settled in French posessions in the US as well.

Now to your other point, you contradict yourself. First you stated that Carnival was given to most countries by the Roman Catholic Church then you state the French had no Carnivals. Wasn't France a country that was predominantly Roman Catholic during the Slave Trade ???

If the French in TNT took it to more of a party level why then there brothers and sisters in the French Caribbean not do the same? After all they're descended from the same West Africans no? ::)
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Offline football prof

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2006, 11:56:27 PM »
I disagree with the French taking it to a party level. The party level is more West African than French. Look at Rio's carnival. There are no French but there are Portugese who practice catholicism. Thats why i say the party thing is more west african than french.

What makes Trinidad Carnival unique is its relations to resistance. Slaves used Carnival time to seek retribution. For a slave this would be the perfect time to get revenge. Carnival was never about celebrating the culture of your oppressors.  :rotfl:
 

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2007, 04:27:15 AM »
Warlord, you may have to read my post again. here are the  the important parts.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
In this era, the period between Christmas and Lent was marked by great merrymaking and feasting by both the French and English. Historians of the nineteenth century wrote about the balls, fetes champetres and house to house visiting engaged in by the white upper class. It was also the custom of the British to impose martial law during the Christmas season. Military exercises were performed at the start of this martial law.

The Carnival celebrations between 1783 and 1838 were dominated by the white elite. Africans and coloreds (persons of mixed race) were forbidden by law to participate in street festivities. This is not to say that they did not celebrate in their own way in their compounds.


ENTER THE DRAGONS
While Emancipation brought freedom for the Africans, it also brought new concerns for the whites. The British were entrenching themselves as the new Colonial power in the West. The French had lost their dominance in society. All the whites were caught up in the problems of labor, low productivity, and financial structures. Therefore, the opportunity was provided for Africans to take over Carnival and embrace it as an expression of their newfound freedom.

In the beginning they celebrated the anniversary of their freedom (August 1)by reenacting scenes of Cannes Brulees. This lasted for about a decade, after which the celebrations were transferred to the pre-Lenten season.

After 1838, Africans participated fully in the carnival activities. They engaged in masking, dancing, stick fighting, mocking whites and reenacting scenes of past enslavement. Whites and coloreds however, ceased their participation in the street festival, thereby bringing an end to an era. The Whites nevertheless, continued their house-to-house visiting.

Martial law was no longer enforced and, consequently, there were no military type activities.

FROM CANNES BRULEES TO CARNIVAL
Africans were unperturbed by the preoccupations of whites and coloreds and proceeded to celebrate with gay abandon. The Africans introduced their own musical instruments and dance movements. The drum replaced the fiddle, the poui stick dethroned the sword, while the nut and minard gave way to the Kalenda and Bamboula. The vigor and vibrancy of the African masquerade, the militaristic nature of the Kellenda dance and the mutilancy of the stick fighting rituals, were frowned upon by the ruling class.

The stick fighters were organized into bands representing different social groups. They were lead by a lead singer called a chantuelle or chanteuse, whose duty it was to egg on the fighters. The chantuelle was supported by a chorus of women. The purpose of the singing was to divide the opponent in song. These activities were known as Cannes Brulees and they preceded the street carnival of Monday and Tuesday.

The torchbearers, carrying flambeaux, led the march. They were followed by the batonnieres or stick fighters, then came the king and queen and royal attendants – body of supporters, substitute stick men, paraders, chanteuse,lead band. They all marched to kalenda songs and calypsoes, accompanied by horns, conch shells, rattles and skin drums. Cannes Brulees marked the beginning of the organized carnival bands.


http://www.nalis.gov.tt/carnival/carnival.htm#historical
http://library2.nalis.gov.tt/Default.aspx?PageContentID=174&tabid=161
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 09:06:55 AM by WestCoast »
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Offline vb

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2007, 05:28:49 AM »
Fellas instead of rehasing old nonsense for War Lord's sake, let's get this topic back on track.

I have been meaning to ask this question.

Where does the term "tabanca" orginate  from?

Is there any chance that it has a French origin as well?

VB
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Offline davidephraim

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Re: Are their Haitian players in the T&T Pro League?
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2007, 12:12:31 PM »
The French influence in TT is extrememly well known.

It was they who popularised Carnival dancing in the streets in TT.
However, when the freed black slaves joined in the late 1800s the French aristocracy fled to their homes :-)

The French influence in our language is obvious:

Dimanche Gras
Jouvert
flambeau
Papa Bois
I could be wrong but I think "jumbie" is also of Fr. origin.
fete

Other areas with French names: Boissiere Village, Petite Valley,...is Blanchicieuse (sp) French? There are more, I just don't remember them all.

Other Fr. names, Boissier, Camps, Dechie (sp), Durieux(sp),St. Hillaire, Camps Campins.

I believe ther could be a lot more names of Fr. origin but mispelling by the locals, probably has us unaware of this.

The Fr. left quite an impact on our culture. I am ashamed to say I only know a bit of it.

But that is what you get for teaching man about Cuba and Haiti for a year and more and harldy one ass about TT. Hopefully that has changed.

Peace,
VB

I have another French name for yuh..... Boucaud.
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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2007, 12:36:09 PM »
Fellas instead of rehasing old nonsense for War Lord's sake, let's get this topic back on track.

I have been meaning to ask this question.

Where does the term "tabanca" orginate from?

Is there any chance that it has a French origin as well?

VB

these fellahs dont know dey history or wha, where yuh think j'ouvert morning and dimache gras and fete and ramajay and all these words come from, carnival was a way de enslaved africans moked de french at dey masquerade balls, diz how carnival started, also the notorious double tongue was also apart of trini culture and the chantelles, another french word...

Offline Cantona007

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2007, 01:19:59 PM »
This has been a really great discussion so far, but I have to ask... why spend so much time dealing with Warlord??? It seems that he just wants some attention and we gave it to him. Now it's time to just ignore him...

Seems this has moved to the "General Discussion" realm as well.

Great discussion so far from some very knowledgeable people  :beermug:
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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2007, 01:51:08 PM »
Nah Flex,

plz keep this here. Who ever thought that a football thread could provide such insight.

This is the most visited forum on SW.net, and (except for War Lord's nonsense) it going sweet too bad.

VB
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Offline Warlord

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2007, 01:54:02 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)
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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2007, 02:18:04 PM »
Great discussion..didn't even notice the title changed until writing this thing.  The following points were taken off of a t-shirt that was sold by ZOOM Caribbean at Long Circular Mall many years ago.  I bought it because of its obvious history lesson and that it looked good for a couple outings.  I did not write all of the points because of time (lack thereof) and those that are mentioned may have been quoted previously from past postings; anyhow, here lies my shilling's worth


The Evolution of Mas

The origin of Carnival is to be found in the ancient pagan custom of the Saturnalia - a custom which was modified by the Church of Rome to be a two-day festival before Ash Wednesday, when Christianity were allowed to pay "farewell" to the devil, pomp, vanity, and lust of the flesh before entering upon the period of fasting and repentance during the forty days of Lent.  The word itself is derived from the Latin Carne vale - farewell to the flesh.  The festival spread to those countries of the New World where the Roman Catholic Church held sway as the dominant religion, and so in this way, Carnival came to Trinidad.

Not indulged in any great extent in Spanish times, the festival was given tremendous impetus and encouragement on the arrival of the French planters in 1783, and continued with much of the enthusiasm after the capitulation to the British forces in 1797.

...Dame Lorraine - said to mean fashionable lady, was an elaborate and grotesque parody of the way French planters conducted themselves at their stylish balls.  Mockery of their masters' dancing eccentricities had always been a common form of private entertainment among slaves many years before this, and the Dame Lorraine performance formalised this practice into public theatre for a paying audience on a Sunday night of Carnival.

ps..the Dame Lorraine festival came about because Canboulary was banned in 1881 by Captain Baker in the famous Canboulay Riots.
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Offline Cantona007

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2007, 02:24:04 PM »
Back on track... it really is quite fascinating how far reaching the Fr. influence has been. Both my parents spoke fluent Patois, which at the time, to my untrained ear, sounded soooo much like French. Also in the field of the arts, wasn't one of our greatest artists (Cazabon) a French Creole? There are so many influential people, ordinary people, cultural artifacts that we can trace durectly to our French heritage.
Trinidad REALLY is blessed to be so culturally diverse, and more importantly, to be so open, expressive and inclusive in our diverity and heritage.

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Offline Sentinel

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2007, 03:19:56 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)

You people my arse.  Grow up little boy.  Ah know it aren't your fault for being born where yuh did.  Trust meh...yuh missing out on yuh Culture.  Come home and learn.

So am I to understand that the point you are trying to make Warlord, is that Carnival is purely a West Afrikan experience?  How come then the Africans in JA only now realize their lost culture "Carnival" (only upon the introduction and importation from Trinidad) by "black Chinee" Byon Lee within the last 10-15 years agol...You mean to tell me it take a Chinee to jog yuh memory? Or maybe it is that people from JA did not come from West Afrika. 

Let me tell yuh boss, it was the coming together of Latin and Afrikan cultures that has evolved into Carnival as we know it today.  Carnival is a (fusion of cultures) that manifests itself into an art form that has its grounding in culture, politics, economics and religion. 

You know what happenned when the English Catholics (protestants) tried to stop the Carnival in Trinidad?...is nuff man get beat! 

Carnival was always tolerated (if not supported) by the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French because of its association to the pre-lenten season...and its direct relationship to Roman Catholocism.  That is not to say that Afrikans did not also use this opportunity to express their own interpretions of art, culture, and feelings through Carnival.  Carnival belongs to us all.  In Trinidad, Carnival belongs to all people of Afrikan, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Indian, (East and Indegenous) Chinese, Syrian, Lebanese, and a multitude of other cultures all fused into one.  Everybody had their influence and played their part.

And yes...it was introduced by the French!  Doh get tie up.  If your sole purpose is to big up the going back to Afrika movement, I have no probs with that.  Trinbago plan on going for 2010.

Can anybody tell me how to post a sound file within the body of text on this forum.  Ah have some real exciting cultural interviews (sound clips) back in times.  I would prefer though that I can send those files to someone who can do it for me.  Age does have it limitations with regard to technology lol. 

I can tell you one thing...for those who want to go about supposin...I lived it, old enough to get some vestages of an era gone by.  I am from Cantago Village, Upper Santa Cruz, Trinidad...and although I can speak Spanish, because my Grandparents on both sides spoke the language, all the old villagers spoke patios.  Only a few spoke Spanish. 

Luv U T&T


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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2007, 03:52:42 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)

Ass looking for attention.............IGNORE

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2007, 04:14:12 PM »
Great discussion..didn't even notice the title changed until writing this thing. The following points were taken off of a t-shirt that was sold by ZOOM Caribbean at Long Circular Mall many years ago. I bought it because of its obvious history lesson and that it looked good for a couple outings. I did not write all of the points because of time (lack thereof) and those that are mentioned may have been quoted previously from past postings; anyhow, here lies my shilling's worth


The Evolution of Mas

The origin of Carnival is to be found in the ancient pagan custom of the Saturnalia - a custom which was modified by the Church of Rome to be a two-day festival before Ash Wednesday, when Christianity were allowed to pay "farewell" to the devil, pomp, vanity, and lust of the flesh before entering upon the period of fasting and repentance during the forty days of Lent. The word itself is derived from the Latin Carne vale - farewell to the flesh. The festival spread to those countries of the New World where the Roman Catholic Church held sway as the dominant religion, and so in this way, Carnival came to Trinidad.

Not indulged in any great extent in Spanish times, the festival was given tremendous impetus and encouragement on the arrival of the French planters in 1783, and continued with much of the enthusiasm after the capitulation to the British forces in 1797.

...Dame Lorraine - said to mean fashionable lady, was an elaborate and grotesque parody of the way French planters conducted themselves at their stylish balls. Mockery of their masters' dancing eccentricities had always been a common form of private entertainment among slaves many years before this, and the Dame Lorraine performance formalised this practice into public theatre for a paying audience on a Sunday night of Carnival.

ps..the Dame Lorraine festival came about because Canboulary was banned in 1881 by Captain Baker in the famous Canboulay Riots.

good info, one question, lets see who will get de answer, which carnival is older, brazil or trinidad? ;D

Offline Trini Madness

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2007, 04:41:27 PM »

No you are missing my point.. I never said that you couldn't have an influence from the French because you weren't colonised by them. What I did say is was that The Spanish has most likley had a much larger influence on your culture since you have been under their rule for so long. I mean look at how long the Spanish controlled you...are you going to tell me that the French influence is bigger ???

Nobody was comparing French influence to Spanish influence until you started in this thread. You bringing that up is like bringing up the fact that Trinidad have plenty Mango when people talking about orange. Also...this was your original statement.

I don't think you have any ties whatsoever to the French/Haitians. If anything, St Lucia, Dominica, Guadeloupe, Martinique have far more ties  to the French culture and language but not Trinidad brethren ;)

Whether Haiti is closer to St. Lucia or Dominica says nothing about the relationship between TnT and Haiti, that is an irrelevant comparison because no one was saying that TnT and Haiti are the closest of relatives. The point being made was that there is French influence in Haiti and also in Trinidad, a nice and simple discussion.

Throughout this thread people have been giving examples that TnT culture has French influence without discounting the fact that there is also Spanish influence and without making any measure of how much Spanish or French because nobody believes that they are mutually exclusive. You have taken the tack of discounting the French influence based on your understandably limited knowledge if TnT history.

Exactly how much of a cultural link there is between Haiti and Trinidad and Tobago? I fail to see it except for the slaves coming ova to Trinidad and Tobago during the times of Spanish colonisation. The folklore that many posts mentioned here are as a result of stories from slave migration that's it.

Every Caribbean nation probably have their stories from their slave history. Anywhere African slaves went in the " New World" they have stories and some folklore dated back to their African upbringing. We have it in Jamaica as well....as a matter of fact we have a few Anansi stories similar to what Trinidad has...does that mean we're French influenced us too ???

Those are just some examples...There is also Carnival, which is the fountain of so many of our creative arts, almost every word is French, this is not coincidence and Carnival as you well know is very significant tto TnT. It goes far beyond 'nansi stories and folklore.

My point is tho, the culture and customs are more symbolic of your spanish colonisation. I've met people from Trinidad in the US who has hispanic names and had more ties to Spanish yet I've never met anyone of French descent. Even one of my brothers is married to a Trinidadian woman who's First and last name is of spanish origin and she speaks fluent spanish yet she is from Trinidad go figure!

Again nobody was minimizing Spanish influence by commenting on the French. And if you haven't met anyone from TnT of French descent, or if your partner's wife speaks Spanish that is hardly a scientific sampling. There are many french names. In fact if you are a "high colour" mixed person you are likely to be called a "French creole" or a "coco panyol" depending on how you look. Duprey, De Four, Boissiere, Froget, Derieux, Didier, Leblanc, Rousseau are just a few common of French surnames that you'll hear in TnT.




 

Look JDB you are missing my points once again. Let me ask you this, you keep saying that Trinidad & Tobago and Haiti have very close links.

Bredrin,

The slaves that settled in Haiti and other French Caribbean possessions are primarily from West Africa. If you know western Africa, they speak what Language "French".  Ghana, Ivory Coast, Benin, Sierra Leone and other w. African nations are all French cultured. These are the people that went to Haiti and other french Caribbean possessions. The people that went to Trinidad and Tobago from Haiti and other French Caribbean islands were slaves from W. Africa.

They brought with them them their language, folklore and culture which was already established before they got to TNT. That is the only reason that you have some similarity in the folkore, but not so much in Cultural aspects. You need to learn Trinidad and Tobago's history and Haiti's history to fully understand it.

And as for Carnival, that is not French influenced...it is of West African traditional culture. The drums, steelpan music can trace it's origins back to W.Africa and not Haiti.

Take a look at Haitians and take a look at people of West Africans and you will see a similarity within their physical composition. Africans from West Africa have distinct features in head shapes, teeth structuring and have higher cheekbones and have much different skin texture.  I know I work in a  software company with a gentleman from the Ivory Coast, and I see the difference.

Ha! physical composition or physical features? ;) You are quite vulnerable there, my friend.
'teeth structuring', 'head shapes'...   ;D You probably believe there is a Haitian ethnic, tribe, or race. You are a funny dude to say the least.

No but you do seem to have alot more in common with West Africans as opposed to someone like myself. :o

I'm of Jamaican indian(coolie) and hispanic/black descent which makes me in all essence look alot different than your peeps! ;D

well my father's great grandmother was from cote d'ivoire and lived in trinidad
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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2007, 04:46:39 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)

Ass looking for attention.............IGNORE

vb

yow pussy,

yu know mi....go suck yu madda. >:(
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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2007, 04:48:38 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)

Ass looking for attention.............IGNORE

vb

yow,

nuh call up mi name.....yu nuh know mi. A wha tek yu?
"I love to see my people living in love, hate to see dem fighting and swimming in blood."

Offline Trini Madness

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2007, 04:54:44 PM »
Origins of Rituals and Customs in the Trinidad Tobago Carnival

by Dr. Hollis Urban Liverpool
So Yu Going To... CARNIVAL Magazine

 

Most writers on the subject of the Trinidad Carnival have attributed the origins of the Carnival to Europe. Academic writers have perpetuated this belief because of the known presence of carnival in Europe from Roman times.

There is also the tendency to view Europe and Europeans through the lens of colonialism: European standards are superior. Thus European ideas and concepts have had an extraordinary effect on the Caribbean ever since Columbus.

That Europeans who settled in Trinidad and Tobago following the Cedula of Population1 love of Carnival fetes can be gleaned from the writings of Pierre Gustave Borde, a French-Creole historian of the 19th century.

Describing the cultural habits of the French, Borde wrote: The pleasures of meals at the dining table and picnics were added to those of music and dancing. There followed nothing but concerts and balls. There were lunches and dinners, hunting parties and expeditions on the river, as well as Carnival which lasted from Christmas time until Ash Wednesday. It is nothing but a long period of feasts and pleasures." (1876:306-07)

The notion that the Carnival in Trinidad and Tobago originated in Europe arose from the fact that Carnival festivities, that in some ways resemble the Trinidad Carnival, are still held today in Europe. In addition, the early French settlers so impacted the social, cultural, and political life of Trinidad and Tobago society that the seeds of Eurocentrism were fertilized to the extent that scholarship was choked by the reeds of colonialism; furthermore, the creation of institutions and networks to legitimize research and publications perpetuated this intellectual dependence. European writers undervalued the experiences and thought processes of the oppressed lower classes in Trinidad and Tobago, particularly those of African decent.

Thus did Raphael DeLeon, the calypsonian Roaring Lion (1988), Errol Hill (1972), Andrew Carr (1975), and Andrew Pearse (1956) posed the idea that not only did Trinidad's Carnival originate in Europe, but that all Carnivals have their common origin there. Newspapers, magazines, and even schoolbooks in the Caribbean have all since associated the festival with France.

DeLeon names his book Calypso from France; Errol Hill noted that the "black slaves did not participate" (1976:54); Andrew Carr pointed out that "from 1783, for half a century, they (the French) developed the Carnival" (1975: 57); and a reference book published by UNESCO in 1989 pointed out that "the people who brought the Carnival to Trinidad began arriving around 1785" (Anthony 1989:1).

Little or no credit has been given to the thousands of Africans who settled in the colony as en-slaved men and women to fill the coffers of their European overlords with wealth arising from the production of sugar-cane, coffee, and cocoa.

To most academic writers "the Africans began to take part in Carnival after they had attained freedom under the Emancipation Bill of 1833" (Carr 1975:57). To add further insult to injury, one writer refused to pay them credit for contributing even as freed men, noting that: all the Carnival activities of the slaves still had to be in the slave-yards because the slaves could not venture out onto the streets. But it is interesting that there was a little of what one would call street Carnival because at that stage there were thousands of one-time slaves who had attained their freedom." (Anthony 1989:4)

Michael Anthony's Eurocentric,." attitude is further demonstrated when he contradicts himself, asserting that "at Carnival time these Free Blacks took to the streets - not having great houses of course, nor the desire for the genteel and sedate atmosphere of the masked balls (of whites)." Imagine thousands of freed Africans on the streets - yet Anthony sees in this "little of what one would call street Carnival" (1989:4).

What historical data are there for European and Caribbean academics to associate Carnival in Trinidad and Tobago with Europe or with Europeans? The season of Lent was for Christians one of fasting, praying, and alms deeds. Most Christians feasted excessively before Lent. This feasting, however, was so much associated with paganism that the Protestants sought to abolish pre-Lenten feasting and even the Lenten fast.

Many persons, however, especially Catholics, continued to embark on the pagan feasting before carrying out the penitential rigors of Lent. While accepting the fast and other harsh Lenten penances as sacrificial atonement for their sins, Catholics are reported to have pressured the Church to accept the pagan feastings, and "forced parish priests to take part in them" (LeRoy Ladurie 1979:308). In the Carnival of Rome, as described by Edward Gibbon "riotous youths (...) ran naked about the fields" (33) and "women prostituted themselves to strangers" (in Tallant 1948:86-87).

These were some of the sins for which Christians wished wished to atone. The Church tried to stamp out the pagan practices that became associated with the Carnival in Europe but was forced to compromise as the festival, imbued with Christian significance, spread to Madrid, Vienna, Barcelona, Warsaw, and France (Tallant 1948:88).

In their Christianizing zeal, Spanish and English Catholics sought to change the lives of the Amerindians of Trinidad, and of the Africans who were brought in later as part of the New World slave trade. Trinidad, an island with an area of 1,864 square miles and situated 13 miles off the coast of Venezuela, was first in the 16th century by the who learned of its existence from the reports of Columbus.

In an effort to make the land productive, the Spaniards organized the Amerindian into encomiendas, but the 6,000 Amerindians found in 1553 were so badly overworked that they were almost decimated by the 18th century. By 1826, only 655 of them could be found (Williams 1962:2-5).

As such, the Spaniards devised the Cedula Population plan whereby thousands of Frenchmen from the neighboring islands of Grenada, Martinique, Guadeloupe, and St. Dominique poured into Trinidad. Besides the continental elite Frenchmen, thousands of free coloured French planters took advantage of the offer of free land, and, with their enslaved Africans, established flourishing estates on the island (see: Cedula of Population in Fraser (1891) 1971: Appendix I, i-v) 4.

In 1796, Spain declared war on England, and as Trinidad commanded an ideal position as a base for trading with the Spanish-American colonies, Britain decided to capture the island. In 1979, with few ships defend the colony, and with Spain unable to send either ships or men, the Spanish Governor Don Jose Maria Chacon surrendered to the British to avoid senseless bloodshed. Britain then administered the island through the instruments of a governor with wide powers, and a Council of Advice comprising planters of all nationalities nominated by the governor.

As Britain controlled policy making within and without the island, British merchants supplied enslaved Africans to the French planters. After the abolition of the slave trade in 1808, British merchants continued to crowd the island with Africans from neighboring Caribbean islands.

After the abolition of slavery, freed Africans, eager to gain a living from the increased wealth of the island occasioned by the production of sugar, coffee, and cocoa, poured into the island from around the Caribbean. In 1803, the population amounted to 2,361 whites, 5,275 coloureds, and 20,464 enslaved Africans (Fraser 1891) 1971:149). By 1830, Trinidad had the largest population of all the English-speaking islands in the Caribbean save Jamaica, and the largest population of free coloureds, who numbered 16,000. The enslaved population then was 22,750.6.

Trinidad, then, from 1783 when the first boatload of Frenchmen came, to 1838 when the Africans were freed, was a plantation island ruled politically from 1979 by Britain, but fashioned socially and culturally by France. The planters were faced with a severe shortage of labor yet were anxious to get rich quickly so they continued to import Africans from Africa, indentured East Indians and Chinese from Asia, Portuguese from Madeira, and many others from Syria and Lebanon.

There is evidence that the Europeans who came as early settlers to Trinidad and Tobago were not only experienced in the Carnival tradition, but they also had a propensity for feteing. It is this festive activity in Trinidad on the part of Europeans that has led to the erroneous Eurocentric belief that the origins of Trinidad's carnival lay in Europe.

In any case, Robert Tallant, who researched the roots of Europeans festivities, has shown that European Carnivals date back to the Egyptian of Africa, who thousands of years ago, held Carnival festivities in celebration of the fertility of the earth and women, as well as the replenishment of their food stocks (1948:85). According to Tallant, the roots of Mardi Gras very obviously lie in Africa (83-85).

The Carnival of the French

French planters brought to Trinidad a legacy of Carnivals. In Romans, a town located southeast of Lyons, as early as 1560, there was an annual Mardi Gras parade. Long before 1560, however, Christians in France celebrated the pre-Lenten season with pagan excesses climaxing on Mardi Gras with parades and mock trials of effigies (LeRoy Ladurie 1979:I-xvi).

The same practices occurred in Trinidad before Ash Wednesday when French Planters drowned their mundane cares in alcohol, parties, and house-to-house visits. With the of the French Revolution, the Mardi Gras parade and face masks banned by the revolutionary government as being "beneath the dignity of a citizen" (Tallant 1948:92).

This must have been the reason why the French in Trinidad joined with the English authorities in banning the face masks and Carnival disguises they disliked. In doing so, the French called the Africans who participated in 19th century Trinidad Carnival jamettes, a term that had its root in the French word diameter, which meant "below the diameter of respectability or the underworld" (Pearse 1956:175-93). Æ

http://www.caribbeanchoice.com/carnivalmag/article6.asp

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TrinInfinite

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2007, 05:01:18 PM »
Origins of Rituals and Customs in the Trinidad Tobago Carnival

by Dr. Hollis Urban Liverpool
So Yu Going To... CARNIVAL Magazine

 

Most writers on the subject of the Trinidad Carnival have attributed the origins of the Carnival to Europe. Academic writers have perpetuated this belief because of the known presence of carnival in Europe from Roman times.

There is also the tendency to view Europe and Europeans through the lens of colonialism: European standards are superior. Thus European ideas and concepts have had an extraordinary effect on the Caribbean ever since Columbus.

That Europeans who settled in Trinidad and Tobago following the Cedula of Population1 love of Carnival fetes can be gleaned from the writings of Pierre Gustave Borde, a French-Creole historian of the 19th century.

Describing the cultural habits of the French, Borde wrote: The pleasures of meals at the dining table and picnics were added to those of music and dancing. There followed nothing but concerts and balls. There were lunches and dinners, hunting parties and expeditions on the river, as well as Carnival which lasted from Christmas time until Ash Wednesday. It is nothing but a long period of feasts and pleasures." (1876:306-07)

The notion that the Carnival in Trinidad and Tobago originated in Europe arose from the fact that Carnival festivities, that in some ways resemble the Trinidad Carnival, are still held today in Europe. In addition, the early French settlers so impacted the social, cultural, and political life of Trinidad and Tobago society that the seeds of Eurocentrism were fertilized to the extent that scholarship was choked by the reeds of colonialism; furthermore, the creation of institutions and networks to legitimize research and publications perpetuated this intellectual dependence. European writers undervalued the experiences and thought processes of the oppressed lower classes in Trinidad and Tobago, particularly those of African decent.

Thus did Raphael DeLeon, the calypsonian Roaring Lion (1988), Errol Hill (1972), Andrew Carr (1975), and Andrew Pearse (1956) posed the idea that not only did Trinidad's Carnival originate in Europe, but that all Carnivals have their common origin there. Newspapers, magazines, and even schoolbooks in the Caribbean have all since associated the festival with France.

DeLeon names his book Calypso from France; Errol Hill noted that the "black slaves did not participate" (1976:54); Andrew Carr pointed out that "from 1783, for half a century, they (the French) developed the Carnival" (1975: 57); and a reference book published by UNESCO in 1989 pointed out that "the people who brought the Carnival to Trinidad began arriving around 1785" (Anthony 1989:1).

Little or no credit has been given to the thousands of Africans who settled in the colony as en-slaved men and women to fill the coffers of their European overlords with wealth arising from the production of sugar-cane, coffee, and cocoa.

To most academic writers "the Africans began to take part in Carnival after they had attained freedom under the Emancipation Bill of 1833" (Carr 1975:57). To add further insult to injury, one writer refused to pay them credit for contributing even as freed men, noting that: all the Carnival activities of the slaves still had to be in the slave-yards because the slaves could not venture out onto the streets. But it is interesting that there was a little of what one would call street Carnival because at that stage there were thousands of one-time slaves who had attained their freedom." (Anthony 1989:4)

Michael Anthony's Eurocentric,." attitude is further demonstrated when he contradicts himself, asserting that "at Carnival time these Free Blacks took to the streets - not having great houses of course, nor the desire for the genteel and sedate atmosphere of the masked balls (of whites)." Imagine thousands of freed Africans on the streets - yet Anthony sees in this "little of what one would call street Carnival" (1989:4).

What historical data are there for European and Caribbean academics to associate Carnival in Trinidad and Tobago with Europe or with Europeans? The season of Lent was for Christians one of fasting, praying, and alms deeds. Most Christians feasted excessively before Lent. This feasting, however, was so much associated with paganism that the Protestants sought to abolish pre-Lenten feasting and even the Lenten fast.

Many persons, however, especially Catholics, continued to embark on the pagan feasting before carrying out the penitential rigors of Lent. While accepting the fast and other harsh Lenten penances as sacrificial atonement for their sins, Catholics are reported to have pressured the Church to accept the pagan feastings, and "forced parish priests to take part in them" (LeRoy Ladurie 1979:308). In the Carnival of Rome, as described by Edward Gibbon "riotous youths (...) ran naked about the fields" (33) and "women prostituted themselves to strangers" (in Tallant 1948:86-87).

These were some of the sins for which Christians wished wished to atone. The Church tried to stamp out the pagan practices that became associated with the Carnival in Europe but was forced to compromise as the festival, imbued with Christian significance, spread to Madrid, Vienna, Barcelona, Warsaw, and France (Tallant 1948:88).

In their Christianizing zeal, Spanish and English Catholics sought to change the lives of the Amerindians of Trinidad, and of the Africans who were brought in later as part of the New World slave trade. Trinidad, an island with an area of 1,864 square miles and situated 13 miles off the coast of Venezuela, was first in the 16th century by the who learned of its existence from the reports of Columbus.

In an effort to make the land productive, the Spaniards organized the Amerindian into encomiendas, but the 6,000 Amerindians found in 1553 were so badly overworked that they were almost decimated by the 18th century. By 1826, only 655 of them could be found (Williams 1962:2-5).

As such, the Spaniards devised the Cedula Population plan whereby thousands of Frenchmen from the neighboring islands of Grenada, Martinique, Guadeloupe, and St. Dominique poured into Trinidad. Besides the continental elite Frenchmen, thousands of free coloured French planters took advantage of the offer of free land, and, with their enslaved Africans, established flourishing estates on the island (see: Cedula of Population in Fraser (1891) 1971: Appendix I, i-v) 4.

In 1796, Spain declared war on England, and as Trinidad commanded an ideal position as a base for trading with the Spanish-American colonies, Britain decided to capture the island. In 1979, with few ships defend the colony, and with Spain unable to send either ships or men, the Spanish Governor Don Jose Maria Chacon surrendered to the British to avoid senseless bloodshed. Britain then administered the island through the instruments of a governor with wide powers, and a Council of Advice comprising planters of all nationalities nominated by the governor.

As Britain controlled policy making within and without the island, British merchants supplied enslaved Africans to the French planters. After the abolition of the slave trade in 1808, British merchants continued to crowd the island with Africans from neighboring Caribbean islands.

After the abolition of slavery, freed Africans, eager to gain a living from the increased wealth of the island occasioned by the production of sugar, coffee, and cocoa, poured into the island from around the Caribbean. In 1803, the population amounted to 2,361 whites, 5,275 coloureds, and 20,464 enslaved Africans (Fraser 1891) 1971:149). By 1830, Trinidad had the largest population of all the English-speaking islands in the Caribbean save Jamaica, and the largest population of free coloureds, who numbered 16,000. The enslaved population then was 22,750.6.

Trinidad, then, from 1783 when the first boatload of Frenchmen came, to 1838 when the Africans were freed, was a plantation island ruled politically from 1979 by Britain, but fashioned socially and culturally by France. The planters were faced with a severe shortage of labor yet were anxious to get rich quickly so they continued to import Africans from Africa, indentured East Indians and Chinese from Asia, Portuguese from Madeira, and many others from Syria and Lebanon.

There is evidence that the Europeans who came as early settlers to Trinidad and Tobago were not only experienced in the Carnival tradition, but they also had a propensity for feteing. It is this festive activity in Trinidad on the part of Europeans that has led to the erroneous Eurocentric belief that the origins of Trinidad's carnival lay in Europe.

In any case, Robert Tallant, who researched the roots of Europeans festivities, has shown that European Carnivals date back to the Egyptian of Africa, who thousands of years ago, held Carnival festivities in celebration of the fertility of the earth and women, as well as the replenishment of their food stocks (1948:85). According to Tallant, the roots of Mardi Gras very obviously lie in Africa (83-85).

The Carnival of the French

French planters brought to Trinidad a legacy of Carnivals. In Romans, a town located southeast of Lyons, as early as 1560, there was an annual Mardi Gras parade. Long before 1560, however, Christians in France celebrated the pre-Lenten season with pagan excesses climaxing on Mardi Gras with parades and mock trials of effigies (LeRoy Ladurie 1979:I-xvi).

The same practices occurred in Trinidad before Ash Wednesday when French Planters drowned their mundane cares in alcohol, parties, and house-to-house visits. With the of the French Revolution, the Mardi Gras parade and face masks banned by the revolutionary government as being "beneath the dignity of a citizen" (Tallant 1948:92).

This must have been the reason why the French in Trinidad joined with the English authorities in banning the face masks and Carnival disguises they disliked. In doing so, the French called the Africans who participated in 19th century Trinidad Carnival jamettes, a term that had its root in the French word diameter, which meant "below the diameter of respectability or the underworld" (Pearse 1956:175-93). Æ

http://www.caribbeanchoice.com/carnivalmag/article6.asp

for those UNEDUCATED

i read mr chalkdust book already, but one ting i have been asking and no one has responded, what year did the carnival start in brazi? ??? ;D

Offline WestCoast

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2007, 05:08:50 PM »
i read mr chalkdust book already, but one ting i have been asking and no one has responded, what year did the carnival start in brazi? ??? ;D
History of Carnival in Brazil
"Rio de Janeiro
 Carnival parade in Rio de JaneiroThe modern Brazilian Carnival finds its roots in Rio de Janeiro in the 1830s, when the city’s bourgeoisie imported the practice of holding balls and masquerade parties from Paris. It originally mimicked the European form of the festival, over time acquiring elements derived from African and Amerindian cultures.

In the late 19th century, the cordões (literally laces in Portuguese) were introduced in Rio de Janeiro. These were groups of people who would process through the streets playing music and dancing. Today they are known as blocos (blocks), consisting of a group of people who dress in costumes according to certain themes or to celebrate the Carnival in specific ways. Blocos are generally associated with particular neighbourhoods or suburbs and include both a percussion or music group and an entourage of revellers.

During the Carnival, a fat man is elected to represent the role of Rei Momo, the "king" of Carnival.

Carnival in Rio de Janeiro is known worldwide for the elaborate parades staged by the city’s major samba schools in the Sambadrome and is one of the world’s major tourist attractions.

Samba schools are very large, well-financed organizations that work through the year in preparation for Carnival. Parading in the Sambadrome runs over four entire nights and is part of an official competition, divided into seven divisions, in which a single samba school will be declared that year’s winner. Blocos deriving from the samba schools also hold street parties in their respective suburbs, through which they process along with their followers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carnival

More Info
"Colonial Rio
The first records of Carnival festivities in Rio de Janeiro date back to 1723. Immigrants from the Portuguese islands of Açores, Madeira and Cabo Verde introduced here the Entrudo.

The idea was basically getting everybody soaked wet. People would go out in the streets with buckets of water and limes, and everybody could be a potential victim. Even Emperors took part in the fun. There's a curious record of a woman being arrested in 1855 for throwing a lime at Dom Pedro I's escorts.

Zé Pereira was a contribution of a Portuguese shoemaker named José Nogueira de Azevedo, in the mid XIX century. On Carnival Mondays he would march in the streets with his friends playing drums, tambourines, pans, and whistles. Everybody was welcome to join the fun.

Grandes Sociedades or Great Societies was a more organized parade that debuted in 1855, with the presence of the Emperor himself. A group of eighty aristocrats in masks paraded with luxury costumes, music, and flowers. It was a big success. Democráticos, Fenianos and Tenentes do Diabo were the three most well-known groups.

Cordão Carnavalesco is a concept that got its start in 1870. There were characters like queens, kings, witches, peasants and dancers, and they performed according to the costumes they were wearing. There were also the Cordões de Velhos, where participants would wear huge papier-mâché masks and walk in an old man's gait.

Carnival in the XX Century
Ranchos Carnavalescos are a contribution of an immigrant from Bahia named Hilário Jovino da Silva. They started in 1872 as working class festivity. People would dress up in costumes and perform on the parade accompanied by an orchestra of strings, ganzás, flutes, and other instruments. They were more organized than the Cordões, and gained popularity around 1911.

With the sponsorship of brewery Hanseática, the Ranchos started organized competitions. They became one of the main attractions of Rio de Janeiro's Carnival, together with the Great Societies. The parade already included a first-wing (abre alas), an orchestra,  a male and female choir, and a couple of mestre sala and porta bandeira.

The parades were halted during World War II and started again in 1947. By then the competition happened on Av. Rio Branco. The last competition of ranchos was in 1990, and the winner was a club named Decididos de Quintino."

http://www.ipanema.com/carnival/history.htm

the following site is a very good read
http://crawfurd.dk/africa/carnival.htm
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 05:24:04 PM by RedHowler »
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Offline JDB

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2007, 05:24:02 PM »
The stick fighting, masking, dancing, among other things that you people claim were French influenced has actually been traced back to it's origins in W. Africa not France! ???

And you people still have not proven your point. The Carnival in Brazil is similar to that of Trinidad yet they were governed by the Portuguese. The same characteristics were performed by slaves there as well were they French too? ::)

Ass looking for attention.............IGNORE

vb

yow pussy,

yu know mi....go suck yu madda. >:(
Class response.

I still waiting to see this reference that yuh have. I would also like to know when Ghana was a French colony. Just one of the absurd "contributions" that you made to this thread.
THE WARRIORS WILL NOT BE DENIED.

TrinInfinite

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2007, 05:26:40 PM »
i read mr chalkdust book already, but one ting i have been asking and no one has responded, what year did the carnival start in brazi? ??? ;D
History of Carnival in Brazil
"Rio de Janeiro
 Carnival parade in Rio de JaneiroThe modern Brazilian Carnival finds its roots in Rio de Janeiro in the 1830s, when the city’s bourgeoisie imported the practice of holding balls and masquerade parties from Paris. It originally mimicked the European form of the festival, over time acquiring elements derived from African and Amerindian cultures.

In the late 19th century, the cordões (literally laces in Portuguese) were introduced in Rio de Janeiro. These were groups of people who would process through the streets playing music and dancing. Today they are known as blocos (blocks), consisting of a group of people who dress in costumes according to certain themes or to celebrate the Carnival in specific ways. Blocos are generally associated with particular neighbourhoods or suburbs and include both a percussion or music group and an entourage of revellers.

During the Carnival, a fat man is elected to represent the role of Rei Momo, the "king" of Carnival.

Carnival in Rio de Janeiro is known worldwide for the elaborate parades staged by the city’s major samba schools in the Sambadrome and is one of the world’s major tourist attractions.

Samba schools are very large, well-financed organizations that work through the year in preparation for Carnival. Parading in the Sambadrome runs over four entire nights and is part of an official competition, divided into seven divisions, in which a single samba school will be declared that year’s winner. Blocos deriving from the samba schools also hold street parties in their respective suburbs, through which they process along with their followers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Carnival

More Info
"Colonial Rio
The first records of Carnival festivities in Rio de Janeiro date back to 1723. Immigrants from the Portuguese islands of Açores, Madeira and Cabo Verde introduced here the Entrudo.

The idea was basically getting everybody soaked wet. People would go out in the streets with buckets of water and limes, and everybody could be a potential victim. Even Emperors took part in the fun. There's a curious record of a woman being arrested in 1855 for throwing a lime at Dom Pedro I's escorts.

Zé Pereira was a contribution of a Portuguese shoemaker named José Nogueira de Azevedo, in the mid XIX century. On Carnival Mondays he would march in the streets with his friends playing drums, tambourines, pans, and whistles. Everybody was welcome to join the fun.

Grandes Sociedades or Great Societies was a more organized parade that debuted in 1855, with the presence of the Emperor himself. A group of eighty aristocrats in masks paraded with luxury costumes, music, and flowers. It was a big success. Democráticos, Fenianos and Tenentes do Diabo were the three most well-known groups.

Cordão Carnavalesco is a concept that got its start in 1870. There were characters like queens, kings, witches, peasants and dancers, and they performed according to the costumes they were wearing. There were also the Cordões de Velhos, where participants would wear huge papier-mâché masks and walk in an old man's gait.

Carnival in the XX Century
Ranchos Carnavalescos are a contribution of an immigrant from Bahia named Hilário Jovino da Silva. They started in 1872 as working class festivity. People would dress up in costumes and perform on the parade accompanied by an orchestra of strings, ganzás, flutes, and other instruments. They were more organized than the Cordões, and gained popularity around 1911.

With the sponsorship of brewery Hanseática, the Ranchos started organized competitions. They became one of the main attractions of Rio de Janeiro's Carnival, together with the Great Societies. The parade already included a first-wing (abre alas), an orchestra,  a male and female choir, and a couple of mestre sala and porta bandeira.

The parades were halted during World War II and started again in 1947. By then the competition happened on Av. Rio Branco. The last competition of ranchos was in 1990, and the winner was a club named Decididos de Quintino."

http://www.ipanema.com/carnival/history.htm

the following site is a very good read
http://crawfurd.dk/africa/carnival.htm

thank u mr west coast :beermug: this is what i was trying to tell de yardmen who feel brazil carnival was older than we carnival  :rotfl: TT the MECCA of Carnival.......

God is de BOSS...

Offline Trini _2026

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2007, 06:06:00 PM »


The de Quintino."[/color]
http://www.ipanema.com/carnival/history.htm

the following site is a very good read
http://crawfurd.dk/africa/carnival.htm

thank u mr west coast :beermug: this is what i was trying to tell de yardmen who feel brazil carnival was older than we carnival  :rotfl: TT the MECCA of Carnival.......

Quote

 is ah new year TI it doh matter which one older
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4</a>

TrinInfinite

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2007, 06:13:49 PM »


The de Quintino."[/color]
http://www.ipanema.com/carnival/history.htm

the following site is a very good read
http://crawfurd.dk/africa/carnival.htm

thank u mr west coast :beermug: this is what i was trying to tell de yardmen who feel brazil carnival was older than we carnival  :rotfl: TT the MECCA of Carnival.......

Quote

 is ah new year TI it doh matter which one older

we were de first carnival, i does have tuh educate my ja frens on a consistent basis who dont know about carnival  and its origin and who are the originators of what has been transplanted from our society to the rest of the world...

Offline Trini _2026

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Re: The French influence in T&T
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2007, 06:16:47 PM »


The de Quintino."[/color]
http://www.ipanema.com/carnival/history.htm

the following site is a very good read
http://crawfurd.dk/africa/carnival.htm

thank u mr west coast :beermug: this is what i was trying to tell de yardmen who feel brazil carnival was older than we carnival  :rotfl: TT the MECCA of Carnival.......

Quote

 is ah new year TI it doh matter which one older

we were de first carnival, i does have tuh educate my ja frens on a consistent basis who dont know about carnival  and its origin and who are the originators of what has been transplanted from our society to the rest of the world...

so yuh saying brazil follow we???
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4</a>

 

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