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Author Topic: Home & Away design questions  (Read 2733 times)

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Offline kicker

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Home & Away design questions
« on: March 08, 2007, 09:08:07 AM »
Some food for thought.

The idea of a home and away series appears to be a design that is supposed to bring parity to an int'l competition. I always thought that there were two major flaws with the design in a club competition:

Away goals rule: In my view, this rule is garbage. I understand that it's a tiebreaker to circumvent having to go to extra time and possibly penalty kicks, but its intention is counter intuitive. In my view it does not reward a team that plays open attacking football on its home ground. It simply rewards a team that is better able to keep clean sheets at home. If you're tied on aggregate, and lose on the away goals rule, that means you must have scored more goals on your home ground- why not be rewarded for that ?

Extra time & penalty kicks This is an age old argument/problem and I will admit that there is no perfect way to solve it. I do think that in a home-away series, extra time & penalty kicks is advantageous to the team that plays at home in the second leg of the series. It gives that team more minutes played on their home ground, and the home-crowd advantage for the penalty shootout....

All in all, I think the home & away series is advantageous to the team that plays at home in the second leg. They have a tactical & psychological advantage as the second leg is contingent on what happened in the first leg, (I think its easier to execute tactics on your home ground)...... they are less likely to concede goals at home because psychologically the concept of away goals seems to be more of a consideration in the second leg than in the first, and with extra time & pks on your home ground, the home team is the driver's seat if tied on aggreagate after 210 minutes.

Of course no empirical studies have been done to support this argument, it's just an opinion, and I admit I don't have the answers...just wanted to put it out there and see what other people think.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 09:10:04 AM by kicker »
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Offline Swima

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 09:41:56 AM »
That's usually why the group winners get to play their home leg second. I think the concept of scoring away from home counting for more is used to encourage a definsive minded away team to adopt a more offensive stretegy and bring some action to the contest. Added to that, things can turn favourable for the trailing team by scoring one goal, as opposed to having to equalize and then score a go ahead goal.

Of course when the home team is playing the second leg, and the away team scores, it can be a devastating blow. An almost impossible scenario is created, as was the case with Arsenal last night.

Nevertheless I think the idea of away goals is truly an avoidance of penalties. Nothing more or less. It speaks to the idea that under these conditions, if two teams come out even... then there truly is no other way to separate them.


PS I feel kicker sour about Madrid's exit and that is why he bennin. Just come over to Milan, we will be happy to have you.  ;D
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Offline kicker

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 09:55:50 AM »

PS I feel kicker sour about Madrid's exit and that is why he bennin. Just come over to Milan, we will be happy to have you.  ;D

haha....I knew that would be a response.... ;D Not entirely untrue....but it's something I had a issue with for a while...

good points though- it's one of those arguments that you can always look at from the other side and thus twist it to make sense......
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Offline andre samuel

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 09:56:36 AM »
I think the current system is good enough.  It rewards positive football away from home.  

Kicker, tell me how it was advantageous for arsenal (being the team that played the second leg at home).

They lost the first leg 1-0 away and PSV only had to score one goal in the second leg to make arsenal have to score three.

To me the system is fair.  I for one would like the return of the silver goal (not the golden goal cause that is too much excitement!)...lol

bye bye Madrid lover!!........

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Offline lickslikefire

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 09:58:32 AM »
Some food for thought.

The idea of a home and away series appears to be a design that is supposed to bring parity to an int'l competition. I always thought that there were two major flaws with the design in a club competition:

Away goals rule: In my view, this rule is garbage. I understand that it's a tiebreaker to circumvent having to go to extra time and possibly penalty kicks, but its intention is counter intuitive. In my view it does not reward a team that plays open attacking football on its home ground. It simply rewards a team that is better able to keep clean sheets at home. If you're tied on aggregate, and lose on the away goals rule, that means you must have scored more goals on your home ground- why not be rewarded for that ?

Extra time & penalty kicks This is an age old argument/problem and I will admit that there is no perfect way to solve it. I do think that in a home-away series, extra time & penalty kicks is advantageous to the team that plays at home in the second leg of the series. It gives that team more minutes played on their home ground, and the home-crowd advantage for the penalty shootout....

All in all, I think the home & away series is advantageous to the team that plays at home in the second leg. They have a tactical & psychological advantage as the second leg is contingent on what happened in the first leg, (I think its easier to execute tactics on your home ground)...... they are less likely to concede goals at home because psychologically the concept of away goals seems to be more of a consideration in the second leg than in the first, and with extra time & pks on your home ground, the home team is the driver's seat if tied on aggreagate after 210 minutes.

Of course no empirical studies have been done to support this argument, it's just an opinion, and I admit I don't have the answers...just wanted to put it out there and see what other people think.



I thought the away goals rule was in place for 2 reasons:

(1) As swima said the avoidance of penalties
(2) to reward teams that score goals away from home which IMO is harder than scoring goals at home.

I definitely agree that the away goal rule favours the team in the second leg...but that is the benefit of finishing top of your group in the Group stage

Offline daryn

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 10:55:29 AM »

(2) to reward teams that score goals away from home which IMO is harder than scoring goals at home.


you could also say that preventing a team from scoring at their own home ground is harder than preventing them from scoring at your ground.  but the current system doesn't cater for that.  Liverpool gets rewarded for scoring away but Barca doesn't get rewarded for keeping a clean sheet on the road.

if I remember correctly a few years ago Inter and AC draw twice in the San Siro but one of them win on the away goals rule.  that had seem kinda silly to me.

Offline lickslikefire

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 11:24:41 AM »

(2) to reward teams that score goals away from home which IMO is harder than scoring goals at home.


you could also say that preventing a team from scoring at their own home ground is harder than preventing them from scoring at your ground.  but the current system doesn't cater for that.  Liverpool gets rewarded for scoring away but Barca doesn't get rewarded for keeping a clean sheet on the road.

if I remember correctly a few years ago Inter and AC draw twice in the San Siro but one of them win on the away goals rule.  that had seem kinda silly to me.

 :rotfl:   breds, yuh can't have it both ways:

it's either:

(1)you reward teams for scoring away from home (being more offensive away) or

(2)you reward teams for keeping a clean sheet away from home (being more defensive away)


i rather the former

jes curious, are you a arsenal or madrid fan?  ;D

« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 11:28:27 AM by lickslikefire »

Offline daryn

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 11:40:21 AM »

(2) to reward teams that score goals away from home which IMO is harder than scoring goals at home.


you could also say that preventing a team from scoring at their own home ground is harder than preventing them from scoring at your ground.  but the current system doesn't cater for that.  Liverpool gets rewarded for scoring away but Barca doesn't get rewarded for keeping a clean sheet on the road.

if I remember correctly a few years ago Inter and AC draw twice in the San Siro but one of them win on the away goals rule.  that had seem kinda silly to me.

 :rotfl:   breds, yuh can't have it both ways:

it's either:

(1)you reward teams for scoring away from home (being more offensive away) or

(2)you reward teams for keeping a clean sheet away from home (being more defensive away)


i rather the former

jes curious, are you a arsenal or madrid fan?  ;D




I not asking to have it both ways.  I'm just pointin out something with your logic.  you are saying that it is right to reward away goals because they are harder to score.  I am pointing out something else that is harder to do away than it is at home that isn't being rewarded. 

we all like to watch attacking football, but the point of the game is to score more than the other team.  Preventing the other team from scoring is as big a part of that as scoring goals yourself.   

I think it should just be a straight matter of aggregate score.  If it tied then use the same tiebreaker that is used for single games.

arsenal and madrid are the two teams I hate the most actually. 

Offline kicker

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 11:52:38 AM »

I not asking to have it both ways.  I'm just pointin out something with your logic.  you are saying that it is right to reward away goals because they are harder to score.  I am pointing out something else that is harder to do away than it is at home that isn't being rewarded. 

we all like to watch attacking football, but the point of the game is to score more than the other team.  Preventing the other team from scoring is as big a part of that as scoring goals yourself.   

I think it should just be a straight matter of aggregate score.  If it tied then use the same tiebreaker that is used for single games.

arsenal and madrid are the two teams I hate the most actually. 

Daryn,

Most people are programmed to agree with institutionalized thoughts...If it were the other way around, people would have no issue with it either. I remember long ago, before the head-to-head tie breaker rule was even discussed as a possibilty, I remember telling someone that I prefer head-to-head as a tie breaker over goal difference for tournaments (not for a league/season)...and the person I was talking to found that to be rediculous, and had a million reasons against it.....I almost wanna bet that if head-to-head was argued against now, he'd find a million reasons for it....

When something is labeled a rule or a law, the natural human tendency is to attach a degree of divinity to it as if the law-makers are on a higher level to people who challenge the logic and see it diffferently....so doh study it. If the "away-goals rule" was unheard of and you (without the title of FIFA or UEFA etc... to back you up) proposed it, there would be a lot of people on here who would shoot the idea down...its human nature.
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Offline lickslikefire

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 12:03:18 PM »
I not asking to have it both ways.  I'm just pointin out something with your logic.  you are saying that it is right to reward away goals because they are harder to score.  I am pointing out something else that is harder to do away than it is at home that isn't being rewarded. 

we all like to watch attacking football, but the point of the game is to score more than the other team.  Preventing the other team from scoring is as big a part of that as scoring goals yourself.   

I think it should just be a straight matter of aggregate score.  If it tied then use the same tiebreaker that is used for single games.

arsenal and madrid are the two teams I hate the most actually. 

I understand what yuh saying.  However, I still feel there is some need for a rule like the away goals rule, and not just leaving it to an aggregate score.  Many times teams are tied on aggregate, and IMO there should be some deciding rule to pick a winner (apart from extra time/penalties).  

I guess I just hate penalties, and the away goals rule seems to make more sense to me than a non-away goals rule  :beermug:

daryn/kicker: what would you suggest would be a better rule than the away goals rule for this home and away play-off.

Offline daryn

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Re: Home & Away design questions
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 12:17:55 PM »
well in the particular case of this round of CL I doh have any problem with just playing extra time and then going on to a shootout if necessary if the aggregate score is even.  the home team in the 2nd leg earned that by winning the group.

In general if there isn't any prior reason for one team to be rewarded, I would say just go straight to the shootout and avoid giving one team an extra 30 minutes of home-field advantage.

I used to dislike games going to penalties, but as of now I doh mind.  if two teams play 2 hours (in the case of a single game + extra time) or 3 hours (in the case of a home-away) then at the end of the day yuh just need to find some way to get it over with.  it not perfect, but I never hear an alternative that is.  Keeping composure and having the ability to score/save penalties are skills related to the game of football too.  If the two teams are evenly matched otherwise, then so be it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:30:06 PM by daryn »