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Offline WestCoast

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2007, 09:26:35 PM »
the man give away the ball literally from the touch and Bayern score.
Goal in like 15 secs
CL record
Capello looking like he want the earth to open and swallow him
de announcer say it was 11 seconds  :o :o
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Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2007, 09:30:20 PM »
All I have to say is no Ronaldo = No Goals...Real Madrid will go NO WHERE because of his absence

you are just hurt my friend .... Ronaldo worked his way off the team and so did Robinho. The problem is not their absence because there presence did not set the world alight. I am afraid that I agree with the poster who looked at the way Del bosque was removed for a coach with ¨a higher profile ¨look who they ended up with and of course there is what for me is the most significant reason for their decline ...Beckham.
they bought a player and had no place to play him. a non football decision as Real did not need beckham and he was shifted in every pòsition to get him to fit in and to this day no one can say whether beckham is a defensive player, an attacking midfielder, a winger and all the other permutations. Now that he is leaving where is the hole in Real madrid ???My statement about Beckham iwhen he came is still the same today ...he will break madrid because he represented the shift from football to marketiing ....the golden goose cant play football he just lays golden eggs ......


Jai..Beckham was not the best footblling decision made by Real Madrid and was technically the weakest of the so-called Galacticos, but he was not the main reason, far less the sole reason the ship SS Real Madrid is in relatively poor shape. Beckham has played some games where he was pure class for RM and was clearly their man of the match. The notorious Madrid press has often had to eat their words and praise his performances. Capello had to eat crow and bring him back to the starting lineup. The fans love him as a player who gives his all and he produces as well. In the past 3 years he has consistently given better performances than Madrid favorites/veterans like Raul, Guti, R Carlos and Helguerra. Madrid have also purchased 'big' players after Beckham who never settled like Gravesen and Walter Samuel, or who were perpetuallyn injured oike Woodgate. There are so many reasons that Real Madrid have lost so much of their sheen lately. The two most important were letting Makalele leave (and never getting a suitable replacement) and losing the man-managing skills of Del Bosque (essential in a dressing room of massive egos).

Ohter key reasons include continuing to give Raul a key role in the attack/midfield...wherever they squeeze him in on the day  :-[ Trying to blood mediocre defenders like Pavon, Mejia and Raul Bravo who are just poor.
Failing to effectively replace a clealry over the hill, accident prone R. Carlos.
Converting Helguerra into a defender, yet passing up buying Gabriel Milito, releasing Walter Samuel prematurely, letting Jonathan Woodgate go out on loan. Trying to play Mejia, Pavon and Raul Bravo when they simply are not R Madrid class (at least not yet)

I mean, your analysis HAS to go deeper than just 'it is Beckham's fault'. I eh even reach the nonsense Capello do yet. Have you actually watched Real madrid play over the last 4 years. If none of these problems are as key to you as the intor of Beckham then good...that is you. But Becks spend some good spells on the bench and is not like the team play any better without him. In fact, the players seem to like him in the lineup..

    Filho, this is one time I have to agree with you whole heartedly with just about everything you said.  For good measure, I will throw in the "Samuel Eto'o" trade as the modern day curse of the "Galacticos"......Like the red sox lettin Babe ruth to the yankees.  :devil:


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Offline Daft Trini

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2007, 11:09:00 PM »
Beckham has been a clutch player for Real Madrid.....sports today is about making money and he did that too for them, sold over 100,000 shirts while he was there!

Footballers today have big egos and little heart too, so from all de games I have watched, I think that Real Madrid have very little heart compared to Barca or Villa in La Liga.

Man saying Beckham dis and he dat but he is a baller with real heart. Madrid instead of big salaries players need more men like Becks!

Offline Disgruntled_Trini

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2007, 11:49:05 PM »
Real have a youth academy?

I trying to think if I have ever heard of a player that playing with Real since he is 12.

For example Giggs(MU), Puyol(FCB) or a Fernando Torres.


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Offline Grande

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2007, 01:29:09 AM »
Real have a youth academy?

I trying to think if I have ever heard of a player that playing with Real since he is 12.

For example Giggs(MU), Puyol(FCB) or a Fernando Torres.

well Raul is de obvious example

Pavon, Raul Bravo, Iker Casillas and Guti all come through de Madrid youth sytem as well

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Offline Disgruntled_Trini

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2007, 01:50:43 AM »
Real have a youth academy?

I trying to think if I have ever heard of a player that playing with Real since he is 12.

For example Giggs(MU), Puyol(FCB) or a Fernando Torres.

well Raul is de obvious example

Pavon, Raul Bravo, Iker Casillas and Guti all come through de Madrid youth sytem as well


Raúl was born in the Madrid suburb of San Cristobal de Los Ángeles. After winning his spurs as a member of provincial amateur team San Cristobal de Los Angeles, his father signed him up for the Atlético Madrid youth team at the age of 13. Raúl rose through the ranks, winning the national title with the Under-15 youth team, and seemed destined to join the professional side when Atletico President Jesús Gil dissolved the club's entire youth scheme in an effort to save money.


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Offline jai john

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2007, 06:15:17 AM »
All I have to say is no Ronaldo = No Goals...Real Madrid will go NO WHERE because of his absence

you are just hurt my friend .... Ronaldo worked his way off the team and so did Robinho. The problem is not their absence because there presence did not set the world alight. I am afraid that I agree with the poster who looked at the way Del bosque was removed for a coach with ¨a higher profile ¨look who they ended up with and of course there is what for me is the most significant reason for their decline ...Beckham.
they bought a player and had no place to play him. a non football decision as Real did not need beckham and he was shifted in every pòsition to get him to fit in and to this day no one can say whether beckham is a defensive player, an attacking midfielder, a winger and all the other permutations. Now that he is leaving where is the hole in Real madrid ???My statement about Beckham iwhen he came is still the same today ...he will break madrid because he represented the shift from football to marketiing ....the golden goose cant play football he just lays golden eggs ......


Jai..Beckham was not the best footblling decision made by Real Madrid and was technically the weakest of the so-called Galacticos, but he was not the main reason, far less the sole reason the ship SS Real Madrid is in relatively poor shape.

check my post again ..I never said he was the sole reason that Real´s ship seems in poor shape. what i said was that for me his purchase was the most significant rreason for the decline. i agree with some of the other reasons you gave and even mentioned some of them myself.
My reason for singling out Beckham was that football was sacrificed for more marketing considerations to the point that even when BECKHAM WAS NOT PLAYING WELL ..HE HAD TO PLAY !
I am sure you must have read the reports concerning the intervention of Adidas when Beckham was benched. That for me gave the dressing room over to the marketing department which clearly affected other players who felt they were being unfairly treated. this was reflected by sub par performances by players and some of them expected to do well  probably thought  ...why bother ?  we aren´t going to play anyway ! Raul Bravo comes to mind as he went from very ordinary, to very important to the team , to bench to make room for Be ckham,  in a short space of time.
The other reasons I agree with and certainly Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo then adopted the same appraoch ...if Beckham could play like that and cant be dropped with an even greater financial package than us then let him carry the team. ... ¨why should I be playing the entire left side for the club week in week out when a player who cant command a place in the team, in any position,  is earning more than I do ? ¨
¨why after being the leading scorer every year since I arrived should I be treated less than a player whose best exploits are in non game pursuits and shirt sales ? ¨
Well you may not agree Filho but you must admit that anything that seriously affects team unity is more likely to cause rippling problems after all football is a team game. makele left because he felt underappreciated that did not mean that all those who stayed did. So if you agree that the makele issue was badly handled and affected the team´s performance you will have to study the Beckham syndrome again.

Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2007, 09:05:32 AM »

My reason for singling out Beckham was that football was sacrificed for more marketing considerations to the point that even when BECKHAM WAS NOT PLAYING WELL ..HE HAD TO PLAY !
I am sure you must have read the reports concerning the intervention of Adidas when Beckham was benched. That for me gave the dressing room over to the marketing department which clearly affected other players who felt they were being unfairly treated. this was reflected by sub par performances by players and some of them expected to do well  probably thought  ...why bother ?  we aren´t going to play anyway ! Raul Bravo comes to mind as he went from very ordinary, to very important to the team , to bench to make room for Be ckham,  in a short space of time.
The other reasons I agree with and certainly Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo then adopted the same appraoch ...if Beckham could play like that and cant be dropped with an even greater financial package than us then let him carry the team. ... ¨why should I be playing the entire left side for the club week in week out when a player who cant command a place in the team, in any position,  is earning more than I do ? ¨
¨why after being the leading scorer every year since I arrived should I be treated less than a player whose best exploits are in non game pursuits and shirt sales ? ¨
Well you may not agree Filho but you must admit that anything that seriously affects team unity is more likely to cause rippling problems after all football is a team game. makele left because he felt underappreciated that did not mean that all those who stayed did. So if you agree that the makele issue was badly handled and affected the team´s performance you will have to study the Beckham syndrome again.
Quote

Jai...this is the absolutely positively weakest thing I have read in a long time. Stick to the facts and stop using specualtion as logic as if you were part of the RM dressing room. If I wanted to read this stuff I would go by a Barcelona tabloid (then get a translator  ;D) I disagree with everything you wrote, because Beckham never HAD to play and has been benched when his form was poor. Capello has even kicked him off the squad completely. I know you don't like admiting others are right, but this is poor.

FACT #1. Beckham was not the highest paid player at Real Madrid. Zidane and Ronaldo made more based on salary.Figo and R. Carlos made close the exact same amount. So your whole argument about Ronaldo and R. Carlos not giving their all buss dey.

FACT #2.  Carlos poor play directly coincided with his divorce. He publicly stated that his head was in a mess and it affected his performance, but he never stopped giving 100%. His performances were not down to a lack of trying.

FACT #3. He and Becks are good friends and warm up together before every game trying to 'outdo' each other with their long range passing and getting the crowd hyped.

FACT #4. Ronaldo was the one player who polarized the dressing room. Fiorentino Perez admitted that Ronaldo was his favorite and got away with murder. He missed practices and Perez would tell the coaches as long as he scored goals leave him alone. The Madrid dressing room split and the older players never liked the Brazilian as they ahve come out in interviews and said.Some even came out and said they were happy that he left for AC Milan (fire bun dem for that tho'...fire bun dem good). When interviewd Ronaldo even said he knows they didn't like him and he could not understand why. His lazy play has absolutely nothing to do with Beckham. On the other hand, the players went public to defy Capello (a known task master) and demand that Beckham be reinstated into the squad recently.

Sorry Jai but you duck the facts and come up with the Adidas conspiracy theory to make a tabloid argument. We on different ends of the spectrum on this one.

Offline trinidad badboy

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2007, 09:34:18 AM »


dat was a reall shit give away yes  :rotfl:

Offline Marcos

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2007, 10:02:02 AM »
I feel like I have commented a hundred times on the "overhyped Beckham/Blame it on Beckham" argument.
Fact: D man has played well throughout his tenure in RM. He scores and creates goals. (by the way he was England's best player in the WC last year as well. That is out of the mouth of Englishmen)
D squad purgin because the coaching decisions have been dubious and the back office is in a complete mess.
Capello was the worst possible decision at this time.
They need someone like a Scolari or a Hiddink or even a Mourinho (look out for that this summer) to lead this team out of the wilderness. Someone who is good with players and also good with the press. Capello has failed in both departments.
By the way, the team still in contention for La Liga title so let's not get carried away.

Filho was ready to jump off a building after Barca loss on Tue.
Fellas, Champions League is the most difficult trophy to win. Everybody cyah win it every year. Unlike World Cup, there is always next year.
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Offline Richard G.

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2007, 10:11:17 AM »
Real Madrid problems began in their desire to become the Galacticos, the desire to be the team with the most 'riches' on the field. In letting go of Makalele (seems like everyone forgot the glue that held this team together) they released the heart and soul of a star-studded team. His role was essentially to stop the opposing team from attacking. It wasn't filled with stars and a glitter ball, but he was the most influential player on the field at any given time. They let him go because they didn't think he earned the right to be treated at minimum, on par with the big shooters.

Beckham was and is a Galacticos, but he was different. He had I think his Man U ways kept him in check. I'm yet to hear of Becks not training hard and/or not being very professional. When he left Man U (or got forced out) I think everyone, including Fergie knew they made a mistake. Mind you it's taken him about 4-5 years to get C. Ronaldo to where he is today so I guess you can say their invested time had paid off. But as becks left, so did Man U's shine and an ora about them.

Now Real Madrid has the same issue/problem. Beckhan is showing again his worth and his professional attitude are second to none. Real Madrid's huge loss will be LA and for the most part MLS and US soccer's greatest gain.

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Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2007, 10:37:45 AM »
Filho was ready to jump off a building after Barca loss on Tue.

Haha...it wasn't that bad horse. But I wasn't feelin' too good. And yuh right...Despite all the stupidness, Real Mdadrid could still win La Liga. The superclassico is going to be explosive this weekend. Isn't Inter playing Milan as well?

Offline jai john

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2007, 10:54:32 AM »

My reason for singling out Beckham was that football was sacrificed for more marketing considerations to the point that even when BECKHAM WAS NOT PLAYING WELL ..HE HAD TO PLAY !
I am sure you must have read the reports concerning the intervention of Adidas when Beckham was benched. That for me gave the dressing room over to the marketing department which clearly affected other players who felt they were being unfairly treated. this was reflected by sub par performances by players and some of them expected to do well  probably thought  ...why bother ?  we aren´t going to play anyway ! Raul Bravo comes to mind as he went from very ordinary, to very important to the team , to bench to make room for Be ckham,  in a short space of time.
The other reasons I agree with and certainly Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo then adopted the same appraoch ...if Beckham could play like that and cant be dropped with an even greater financial package than us then let him carry the team. ... ¨why should I be playing the entire left side for the club week in week out when a player who cant command a place in the team, in any position,  is earning more than I do ? ¨
¨why after being the leading scorer every year since I arrived should I be treated less than a player whose best exploits are in non game pursuits and shirt sales ? ¨
Well you may not agree Filho but you must admit that anything that seriously affects team unity is more likely to cause rippling problems after all football is a team game. makele left because he felt underappreciated that did not mean that all those who stayed did. So if you agree that the makele issue was badly handled and affected the team´s performance you will have to study the Beckham syndrome again.
Quote

Jai...this is the absolutely positively weakest thing I have read in a long time. Stick to the facts and stop using specualtion as logic as if you were part of the RM dressing room. If I wanted to read this stuff I would go by a Barcelona tabloid (then get a translator  ;D) I disagree with everything you wrote, because Beckham never HAD to play and has been benched when his form was poor. Capello has even kicked him off the squad completely. I know you don't like admiting others are right, but this is poor.

FACT #1. Beckham was not the highest paid player at Real Madrid. Zidane and Ronaldo made more based on salary.Figo and R. Carlos made close the exact same amount. So your whole argument about Ronaldo and R. Carlos not giving their all buss dey.

FACT #2.  Carlos poor play directly coincided with his divorce. He publicly stated that his head was in a mess and it affected his performance, but he never stopped giving 100%. His performances were not down to a lack of trying.

FACT #3. He and Becks are good friends and warm up together before every game trying to 'outdo' each other with their long range passing and getting the crowd hyped.

FACT #4. Ronaldo was the one player who polarized the dressing room. Fiorentino Perez admitted that Ronaldo was his favorite and got away with murder. He missed practices and Perez would tell the coaches as long as he scored goals leave him alone. The Madrid dressing room split and the older players never liked the Brazilian as they ahve come out in interviews and said.Some even came out and said they were happy that he left for AC Milan (fire bun dem for that tho'...fire bun dem good). When interviewd Ronaldo even said he knows they didn't like him and he could not understand why. His lazy play has absolutely nothing to do with Beckham. On the other hand, the players went public to defy Capello (a known task master) and demand that Beckham be reinstated into the squad recently.

Sorry Jai but you duck the facts and come up with the Adidas conspiracy theory to make a tabloid argument. We on different ends of the spectrum on this one.


why should I be playing the entire left side for the club week in week out when a player who cant command a place in the team, in any position,  is earning more than I do ?


I want to leave everything up so others could decide ..
let me post a few comments by people you mentioned on the issue ...

Roberto Carlos speaks about moving away
Real Madrid defender Roberto Carlos has been in the club for almost ten years, and he is expecting a pay-hike as he seeks new contract talks.

The Brazilian star has denied reports he's already agreed terms over a new deal at Real and admitted: "It is not that I feel mistreated. But I want to reach the numbers that I was offered by Fenerbahce and Chelsea.

"I think that I am young for football. I can play until I'm 40. I want to play for five years more. To speak with Pedja without knowing what it is happening is difficult. I can help Marcelo grow, but I want the club to listen to the things that are going through my mind.

"In fact, it is not money question, that would be crazy. The problem is where I want to play. I want to win two or three titles more with Real Madrid."

I guess carlos must have been secretly lying to your sources .... yeah good friends ..right !
 on the question of a united dressing room affecting success here is what the Ex madrid coach had to say ...

Del Bosque praises Capello's work
Former Real Madrid coach Vicente del Bosque has praised Fabio Capello for the impact he has made since his arrival at the club.

"I think Real Madrid needed a change and the doubt that surrounded the club has now been lifted," said the former Real coach. "Capello doesn't have to worry about the style of his team. He has united his footballer with a determination to win games and he is achieving that.

"It is really important to understand this."

Del Bosque also said: "To sign Gago will be a great achievement. He is like Fernando Redondo, though when he arrived in Madrid he was a man.

"However, I believe they have missed an opportunity in not bringing up to the first team Javi Garcia and Ruben De la Red."


Offline Observer

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2007, 11:56:20 AM »
Real have a youth academy?

I trying to think if I have ever heard of a player that playing with Real since he is 12.

For example Giggs(MU), Puyol(FCB) or a Fernando Torres.

No in the past. Only recently have they began a program since they openend their own Training Center. Real  had U20-U23-Reserves & First Team
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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2007, 12:04:05 PM »
I feel like I have commented a hundred times on the "overhyped Beckham/Blame it on Beckham" argument.
Fact: D man has played well throughout his tenure in RM. He scores and creates goals. (by the way he was England's best player in the WC last year as well. That is out of the mouth of Englishmen)
D squad purgin because the coaching decisions have been dubious and the back office is in a complete mess.
Capello was the worst possible decision at this time.
They need someone like a Scolari or a Hiddink or even a Mourinho (look out for that this summer) to lead this team out of the wilderness. Someone who is good with players and also good with the press. Capello has failed in both departments.
By the way, the team still in contention for La Liga title so let's not get carried away.

Filho was ready to jump off a building after Barca loss on Tue.
Fellas, Champions League is the most difficult trophy to win. Everybody cyah win it every year. Unlike World Cup, there is always next year.

Marcos Hiddink did coach Real and was sent packing. Real problems have been well documented.
It all started with the unjust firing of Del Bosque with the crazy President. Then the President sold Makelele and never bought players to achieve balance.
More than likely the next coach will be Lippi as he is one of the few they have yet to try. :D
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Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2007, 12:36:02 PM »
why should I be playing the entire left side for the club week in week out when a player who cant command a place in the team, in any position,  is earning more than I do ?


I want to leave everything up so others could decide ..
let me post a few comments by people you mentioned on the issue ...

Roberto Carlos speaks about moving away
Real Madrid defender Roberto Carlos has been in the club for almost ten years, and he is expecting a pay-hike as he seeks new contract talks.

The Brazilian star has denied reports he's already agreed terms over a new deal at Real and admitted: "It is not that I feel mistreated. But I want to reach the numbers that I was offered by Fenerbahce and Chelsea.

"I think that I am young for football. I can play until I'm 40. I want to play for five years more. To speak with Pedja without knowing what it is happening is difficult. I can help Marcelo grow, but I want the club to listen to the things that are going through my mind.

"In fact, it is not money question, that would be crazy. The problem is where I want to play. I want to win two or three titles more with Real Madrid."

I guess carlos must have been secretly lying to your sources .... yeah good friends ..right !
 on the question of a united dressing room affecting success here is what the Ex madrid coach had to say ...

Del Bosque praises Capello's work
Former Real Madrid coach Vicente del Bosque has praised Fabio Capello for the impact he has made since his arrival at the club.

"I think Real Madrid needed a change and the doubt that surrounded the club has now been lifted," said the former Real coach. "Capello doesn't have to worry about the style of his team. He has united his footballer with a determination to win games and he is achieving that.

"It is really important to understand this."

Del Bosque also said: "To sign Gago will be a great achievement. He is like Fernando Redondo, though when he arrived in Madrid he was a man.

"However, I believe they have missed an opportunity in not bringing up to the first team Javi Garcia and Ruben De la Red."



Jai..no rational person can connect what you are saying to those quotes. U have to be joking. You also don't ever address any of the FACTUAL points that I make. Do yourself a favor and pick up an authrorized Beckham or Real Madrid book and educate yourself. Go watch or read some real interviews where the words come straight form the players' mouth. That is what I giving you. Your quotes are so irrelevant I wonder if you are even serious.

R Carlos wanted a pay hike. No secret there. Fenerbahce and Chelsea throw some big money at him and he tell RM show me how much you want me.. Match it. There is absolutely no hint that had anything to do with Beckham. In fact at the very same time, Beckham was just as rumored to be leaving and was stalling on signing a new contract. Becks was on his way out. It is also clear that the thing bothering RC the most is the arrival of Marcelo. He is worried that he has lost his place and is practically begging Predrag Mihailovic to keep him for a few more years. he'll even be a mentor to Marcelo. Read it carefully Jai.

I never said there was no unrest in the dressing room. It is a well known fact that Raul did not like Ronaldo. He said so and Ronaldo has responded to Rauls barbs in the past. Raul is the kingpin in the dressing room. Unlike Ronaldo, the players have publicly rallied around Beckham. Read into that what you want. truth is, Beckham was never and is still not an issue. As for Del Bosque....this is also what he said about the unrest even after Gago was signed

Vicente del Bosque says Real Madrid's crisis was sparked by their treatment of Ronaldo and David Beckham.

Del Bosque, a candidate to succeed Fabio Capello, said: "To sell Ronaldo and leave Beckham out of the team was the wrong thing to do halfway through the season and has caused a crisis from within. This has harmed the team more than benefited it.

"The situation is delicate, not only because of the lower standard of players that are there, but also by the image that Madrid always has had when dismissing its stars.

"The instability at board level has also hurt, because even though the team is alive in the Liga and Champions League, people are unhappy with what is going on at the club."
 


Jai..give it a rest. We gone on long enough so I done. Besides, I still waiting for you to actually back up anything you have said.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:37:34 PM by Filho »

Offline Peong

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2007, 12:59:08 PM »
Jai John soundin a lil crazy today.

Offline RGarcia

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2007, 01:02:56 PM »
ah wonder how much he get pay :devil: :devil:
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Offline jai john

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2007, 04:34:40 PM »
So filho when you give quotes they are factual when I give quotes they are not ? Well maybe you could share your sources with me as i have been misinformed for a long time by these various news sources.
my opinion on the subject was given the moment beckham was signed and Real was still flying high.
They were based on what I saw happening on the field of play. Now real no longer have galacticos status and beckham is leaving but I could be wrong in my assessment of the situation ......  fact is Real is not Real of the del bosque era and Beckham signalled a change from the football galacticos policy to the marketing galacticos policy. You think Beckham is a better player than KAKA for example ? You think KAKA could command that package that Beckham got at LA ...I hardly think so ...

You have your reason for the fall and so do I ..my staements though were made when Beckham was signed and Makele was not so if I am wrong in my assessment i wrong long time.

Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2007, 06:38:11 PM »
So filho when you give quotes they are factual when I give quotes they are not ? Well maybe you could share your sources with me as i have been misinformed for a long time by these various news sources.
my opinion on the subject was given the moment beckham was signed and Real was still flying high.
They were based on what I saw happening on the field of play. Now real no longer have galacticos status and beckham is leaving but I could be wrong in my assessment of the situation ......  fact is Real is not Real of the del bosque era and Beckham signalled a change from the football galacticos policy to the marketing galacticos policy. You think Beckham is a better player than KAKA for example ? You think KAKA could command that package that Beckham got at LA ...I hardly think so ...

You have your reason for the fall and so do I ..my staements though were made when Beckham was signed and Makele was not so if I am wrong in my assessment i wrong long time.

Jai...sigh..like I said I done. Please show me where I said your quotes weren't factual. It is the heresay that you started with (Adidas forcing Real Madrid to play Beckham and beckham always HAVING to play  ::)) that I disagree with. They are baseless claims. Simple as that. Your quotes were just not related to anything you said. Blame Becks all you want..I don't care. It is stupid and every other poster who wasted their time reading our crap has agreed with me. But go strong..yuh good. Just tell me which of the following yuh disagree with:

Key Real Madrid players have come public to support Beckham being in the squad after capello dropped him. How could he be divisive in the dressing room?

The same (idiot) real madrid players were happy to see Ronaldo leave

Beckham was not the highest paid player at RM...? Not 2nd highest either. I believe he was 4th behind Zidane, Ronaldo and Raul. He was definitely no higher than 3rd.

Beckham and Roberto Carlos' friendship in highlited in his sanctioned autobiography. They warm up together before every game and Roberto Carlos even joked in an interview in the book that he is happy to have Beckham in the squad because it was too much pressure being the best looking guy at real Madrid.

Beckham has been confined to the bench and even dropped form the squad on quite a few occasions. Where was the almight Adidas those times?

Raul is the least effective galactico...not Beckham. He also seems to have greater 'must play' status than anyone at the club. Why did Owen not get as much time as he should have..point your figures at must play guys like Raul and Ronaldo...not Becks

There has never been any news of Beckham causing rifts at Madrid once he arrived even though there were doubts before he got there.

Real madrid has recruited a long listed of players who were either mediocre, always injured or never setted and their mediocre performances had a serious effect on performance that had nothing to do with Beckham -for example..Pablo Garcia, Graveson, Diogo, Raul Bravo, Pavon, Mejia, Woodgate (always injured).

Madrid never replaced Hierro, and never replaced Makalele. Never should have let Makalele go and Hierro probably had a season or two left in him ala Costa Corta, Maldini, Latapy...

To ignore all this and more to blame it mainly on Beckham is a joke.
OK..now..I done

Offline Observer

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2007, 07:03:14 PM »
have to agree with Filho. The dam President sold Makelele and bought Beckham, stating "Makelele can't sell shirts." Its not really Beckham fault is it. As I said earlier the team was never balanced off. No right full back, no Defensive midfielder (of note), and no central defenders. Woodgate i feel was a good buy but he have injurryritis and consequently failed.
To blame the woes on Real on Beckham is unfair (though I eh no fan). Not to mention hiding behind the curtain that is the coaches fault. After all they fired a very successful coach and never replaced him. Not that the coaches were not good. They failed to understand Real Madrid culture. Trust me! Real is different from any other club. Then again I glad they getting hard cuff.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead
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Offline jai john

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2007, 05:04:05 AM »
have to agree with Filho. The dam President sold Makelele and bought Beckham, stating "Makelele can't sell shirts." Its not really Beckham fault is it. As I said earlier the team was never balanced off. No right full back, no Defensive midfielder (of note), and no central defenders. Woodgate i feel was a good buy but he have injurryritis and consequently failed.
To blame the woes on Real on Beckham is unfair (though I eh no fan). Not to mention hiding behind the curtain that is the coaches fault. After all they fired a very successful coach and never replaced him. Not that the coaches were not good. They failed to understand Real Madrid culture. Trust me! Real is different from any other club. Then again I glad they getting hard cuff.

I think to end this merry go round I must clear one thing because it seems that a litle lost in translation has ocvcuirred. I maintain that the Beckham syndrome is still my reason that real has slid from the very top. I dont say it is beckham´s fault ! I say it is Real´s fault. Beckham did not come to mash up de team and he did not pick himself. Nowhere have I said that Beckham had a bad attitude in fact all reports both at real and at united will testify that the man is the consumate professional. After the man took a boot in the face rom the United coach and did not sink so low in his reply. how many professionals would have reacted in that manner ?

It is ...let me repeat ..the decision to insert a player in a team when there was no established need for such a player and then the attempt to find a place at all cost, even at the expense of nore suited players ..that is my main reason for the slide.
whre have I bashed beckham´s attitude to work or evn to any off field activities detrimental tio the team ?  ...in any post , anytime ?
It is tantamount to saying that Beckham hatched this scheme to derail the Real train and that is why it failed. I dont know where Filho get the idea that I was blaming Beckham as a person   ??? It is the same situation in the case where i mentioned that i thought Bertil was out of his depth at the higher level. Was that Bertil´s fault that he was appointed ? was Bertil a slacker and did not come to work ? Wasnt he like a father to Dwight and russel ? You think any other coach Wim included could have gotten those two guys back in the fold ?
Does that mean you cant therefore say that if Beenie  did not come in we would not have qualified and leaving Bertil to the end would have been suicide ?
I say again ..the galacticos policy was initially based on footballing considerations but it changed when Beckham arrived. I agree that no attempt was made to replace Hierro and makele and this simply supoports my view that maketng decisions supersededfootballing ones.
real´s slide coincided with this change in policy and later attempts could not cover the sore ....up to today the train is still derailed and every atempt is being made to scrap the hugely successful but severly mis directed galacticos policy.
Real is now , through capello, trying to move away from any association with the term galacticos . Why do that to a system that was so successful and made you king of Europe .... if not because it had gone awry ?



Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2007, 05:43:17 AM »
have to agree with Filho. The dam President sold Makelele and bought Beckham, stating "Makelele can't sell shirts." Its not really Beckham fault is it. As I said earlier the team was never balanced off. No right full back, no Defensive midfielder (of note), and no central defenders. Woodgate i feel was a good buy but he have injurryritis and consequently failed.
To blame the woes on Real on Beckham is unfair (though I eh no fan). Not to mention hiding behind the curtain that is the coaches fault. After all they fired a very successful coach and never replaced him. Not that the coaches were not good. They failed to understand Real Madrid culture. Trust me! Real is different from any other club. Then again I glad they getting hard cuff.

I think to end this merry go round I must clear one thing because it seems that a litle lost in translation has ocvcuirred. I maintain that the Beckham syndrome is still my reason that real has slid from the very top. I dont say it is beckham´s fault ! I say it is Real´s fault. Beckham did not come to mash up de team and he did not pick himself. Nowhere have I said that Beckham had a bad attitude in fact all reports both at real and at united will testify that the man is the consumate professional. After the man took a boot in the face rom the United coach and did not sink so low in his reply. how many professionals would have reacted in that manner ?

It is ...let me repeat ..the decision to insert a player in a team when there was no established need for such a player and then the attempt to find a place at all cost, even at the expense of nore suited players ..that is my main reason for the slide.
whre have I bashed beckham´s attitude to work or evn to any off field activities detrimental tio the team ?  ...in any post , anytime ?
It is tantamount to saying that Beckham hatched this scheme to derail the Real train and that is why it failed. I dont know where Filho get the idea that I was blaming Beckham as a person   ??? It is the same situation in the case where i mentioned that i thought Bertil was out of his depth at the higher level. Was that Bertil´s fault that he was appointed ? was Bertil a slacker and did not come to work ? Wasnt he like a father to Dwight and russel ? You think any other coach Wim included could have gotten those two guys back in the fold ?
Does that mean you cant therefore say that if Beenie  did not come in we would not have qualified and leaving Bertil to the end would have been suicide ?
I say again ..the galacticos policy was initially based on footballing considerations but it changed when Beckham arrived. I agree that no attempt was made to replace Hierro and makele and this simply supoports my view that maketng decisions supersededfootballing ones.
real´s slide coincided with this change in policy and later attempts could not cover the sore ....up to today the train is still derailed and every atempt is being made to scrap the hugely successful but severly mis directed galacticos policy.
Real is now , through capello, trying to move away from any association with the term galacticos . Why do that to a system that was so successful and made you king of Europe .... if not because it had gone awry ?




Jai....Just go back to my first response. It is exactly my response to this..Becks was bought 4 years ago. And one man cannot derail RM over so many years. So many other decisions have been made and not made in the interim that supercede this. I still say that trying to include players like Raul, Guti, Hierro, Pablo Garcia, Gravesen, Mejia, Pavon etc...are even worse footballing mistakes than trying to fit Beckham. You are the one who brought up the nonsense about Adidas forcing Madrid to play Becks..You are the one who brought up the completely imaginary scenario about Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos not trying because of Beckham and him having a negative effect on the dressing room. Obvioulsy you did not follow Ronaldo's work rate before Becks arrived. And R. Carlos' workrate was never a problem...but mental concentration seems to be. So my future responses were to debate those notions. I never thought you were attacking Beckham as a person or a professional..I just brought up certain things about him to respond to the idea that he did not cause a rift in the dressing room. Anyway, do not act as if I strayed from the point. All my responses directly relate to where you took the debate. So if you want..go back to my first response. I agree with what you say about marketing over football. I agree that they did not need Beckham..I just believe that far worse decisions were made that were independent of Beckham's arrival. And if there were no hole when Beckham leaves..then Capello would have had no need to bring him back to the squad right? And get this...'galacticos' is a term the press mede up. Fiorentina Perez had initially called it 'Zidanes and Pavones'. And once he started it..it was not ever only about football. Real Madrid does not take 50% of every players images and marketing rights for nothing. Becks coincidentally was the mother of all marketing dreams..but Zidane and Pavones was always about football, glitz and marketing dollars.

Peace Jai..I welcome anything you ahve to say in response. And then I giving it a rest
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 06:13:45 AM by Filho »

Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2007, 05:54:20 AM »
Well, fellas, first, the man set the ship to sinking.......now he abandoning it:


Spain
Roberto Carlos to leave Real Madrid
 
 Roberto Carlos has confirmed that he will leave Real Madrid at the end of the season after 11 years with the club.
(AFP) Jaime REINA
 

(REUTERS) 09 Mar 2007

Brazilian defender Roberto Carlos has said he will leave Real Madrid at the end of the season after 11 years at the club.
"I'm not going to renew my contract. I think the moment has come for me to put an end to my time at the club and leave them to start a new project," the 33-year-old told sports daily Marca on Friday.

"I'm sure about it. My time at Real Madrid has ended. After three years without winning anything I had to take a decision."

The former Brazil international said he had not yet decided where he would continue his career.

"I don't know whether I will continue in Europe or maybe I need to be back in Brazil close to my family.

Roberto Carlos joined Real Madrid from Inter Milan in 1996 during Fabio Capello's first spell as coach at the club.

Since then he has been a fixture in the team, winning three European Cups, three league titles and two FIFA Club World Club Championships during his time at the club.

He has made more appearances for Real than any other foreign-born player and has been a prolific goalscorer despite being a defender, notching up 45 goals in the league and 15 in the UEFA Champions League.

He quit international soccer after Brazil's 1-0 FIFA World Cup quarter-final defeat by France last year.

He picked up a calf injury during Real's 2-1 defeat at Bayern Munich in the Champions League on Wednesday and will be out of action for between three and four weeks.

Real signed another Brazilian Marcelo to provide cover for Roberto Carlos in the January transfer window and youth team defender Miguel Torres has also filled in at left-back in recent games.

"My departure will help the youngsters like Marcelo and Miguel Torres," he said. "They are the future and have to be given a chance to develop. I have to look for motivation in another team, another country, another place."
 

This is a man I have enjoyed watching play throughout his international and club career, even though he seems to have done his best to counter those enjoyable moments with some unforgivable gaffes. (letting t.henry go unmarked was the big one for me) He may not have been the greatest left-back or most skilfull, as i'm sure some people will probably attest, but he always brought an energy and will to win that I appreciated


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2007, 09:08:11 AM »
There was a time where nobody came close to R Carlos in that position. Probably never the greatest defender, but he used to run the entire left side for Brazil and R Madrid. Go back a few years and he was once the best player at Real Madrid until Zidane and Figo and then Ronaldo showed up. he wasn't easy and he was a winner. And he had his brazilian flair when he ready even though he wasn't the most skilful but he would give the fans  a lil' something to remind them they were watching a Brazilian. BIG BIG player. Fall off quite a bit...but respek. Few will evr reach that height. There was a time he was one of the top 10 ballers in the world imo and that not easy in his position.


Offline Peong

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2007, 09:25:48 AM »
Few will evr reach that height.

Most men reach that height by age 13.

Jai John, Raul is de man who had Real Madrid in poor form, the man who HAD to play.
Filho good comments, I eh know wa Jai John smoke.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 09:28:19 AM by Peong »

Offline Mango Chow!

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2007, 10:21:16 AM »
There was a time where nobody came close to R Carlos in that position. Probably never the greatest defender, but he used to run the entire left side for Brazil and R Madrid. Go back a few years and he was once the best player at Real Madrid until Zidane and Figo and then Ronaldo showed up. he wasn't easy and he was a winner. And he had his brazilian flair when he ready even though he wasn't the most skilful but he would give the fans  a lil' something to remind them they were watching a Brazilian. BIG BIG player. Fall off quite a bit...but respek. Few will evr reach that height. There was a time he was one of the top 10 ballers in the world imo and that not easy in his position.



    I really used the wrong word in "attest" as opposed to "argue", simply because I figure he would have enough detractors out there that would argue for arguing sake, and his position is really not one that I paid attention to, so I didn't want to start no war on the forum again (I am trying to be a kinder, gentler Chow in '07  ;D)  But so far, yuh eh gimme nutting to make meh disagree wit yuh on.  That goal that he scored in the "Tournoi de France" still goes down as one of the greatest I have ever seen.......especially from a dead ball situation.  But "oh GAWSH" he could frustrate yuh sometimes!


Not because a man ears long and he teet' long dat it make him a Jackass!

Offline Peong

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2007, 10:34:36 AM »
I think the few years b4 and after France 98 was his best time.
The man have 15 CL goals yes.  Plenty strikers doh have as much. I remember when he wasn't afraid to blaze it from anywhere.
Anyway I hope he enjoys wherever he move to.
He should go EPL, he will fit in good in that wild man league.

Offline Filho

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2007, 10:46:22 AM »

Most men reach that height by age 13.


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Offline Fantastic

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Re: Roberto Carlos now sink Real ship
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2007, 02:48:44 PM »
Hear he coming Trini to play with Vianna and de other Brazilians for W Connection
Doh loss yuh head boss