My plan to start turning West Indian cricket around

[Remie]

I know you guys will not like it but we have to stick with the same team and il explain why. If we drop any of the current team and bring in young replacements like Pollard, Simmons, Barath it will ruin those youngsters careers because they are just not ready for it. We have to stick with the current even if it means losing every game for the next 5 years, if in the 6th year we start winning. I will tell you how that may start happening.

Guys like Bravo, Samuels, Dwayne Smith and Ramdin were put into the international arena after showing a few glimpses of quality for one or two years in first class cricket. They made their test debuts at the age of 20, 19, 21 and 20. Although they were in the side on merit by throwing them all in before they had actually learnt how to make big 100s and consistent run scoring i beleive their careers have been damaged before they should have even started and i dont want this to happen to our next batch of promising youngsters. Lets face it we may have poors systems but out under 19s has consistently produced quality players at that age level. We do have something to work with. I would like to see youth systems and first class systems improve but that is another story for another day.

So this is why i want us to stick with the current players even if we keep losing. I know in the short term whatever we do and whoever we select we will still lose to the top teams thats why i am taking a long term view. Guys like Pollard, Simmons and Barath need to score big consistent runs for at least 2 years in our first class game, and then once they have done that, they need to be sent down to England to play a year of club cricket and if they do well there they may even get a county contract for a year to hone their skills mentaly, physically and tactically. Once they have been though this process only then should they be put into the West Indies team. So slowly but surely we will start to see the improvements even if we do not see any out on the pitch for the next 5 years. Guys we have been going around in circles for the last 5-10 years, if we keep dropping players and calling up youngsters before they are fully ready we will continue to go around in circles.

[Remie]

In the short term if u feel players like Gayle and Samuels do not deserve to be there then please do not replace them with youngsters. Replace them with people like Ganga, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds who have already had their careers damaged by being selected to early. I do not want to see another youngster be put in the team until at least 2010 by which time they would have had time to progress through my system.

[fishs]

In the short term if u feel players like Gayle and Samuels do not deserve to be there then please do not replace them with youngsters. Replace them with people like Ganga, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds who have already had their careers damaged by being selected to early. I do not want to see another youngster be put in the team until at least 2010 by which time they would have had time to progress through my system.

So what is the system ?
Leave everything as it is now for the next few years until men get hair on their balls ?
I thought you were going to talk about coaching, money, training etc.

[Remie]

In the short term if u feel players like Gayle and Samuels do not deserve to be there then please do not replace them with youngsters. Replace them with people like Ganga, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds who have already had their careers damaged by being selected to early. I do not want to see another youngster be put in the team until at least 2010 by which time they would have had time to progress through my system.

So what is the system ?
Leave everything as it is now for the next few years until men get hair on their balls ?
I thought you were going to talk about coaching, money, training etc.

My system is in the first post. Im not going to write it out again.

Coaching, money and training are very broad issues which need to be looked at but those are issues which i do not have fullproof solutions to so im not going to run my mouth off about them. I will concentrate on issues which i feel i can improve.

[fishs]

In the short term if u feel players like Gayle and Samuels do not deserve to be there then please do not replace them with youngsters. Replace them with people like Ganga, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds who have already had their careers damaged by being selected to early. I do not want to see another youngster be put in the team until at least 2010 by which time they would have had time to progress through my system.

So what is the system ?
Leave everything as it is now for the next few years until men get hair on their balls ?
I thought you were going to talk about coaching, money, training etc.

The system is in the first post. Im not going to write it out again.

What Remie ?
The under 19 system ? Then you go on to say you want to see other systems improve.
All you really say so far is to stop blooding the players until they 24 or 25 yrs old.
Come on man I'm sure you have more in your system than that.

[Remie]

No that is not all i say. Il simplify it cos im sure u must have missed the point. My system has nothing to do with the U-19s nor improving the first class systems.

1. I am saying we are picking young players too early before they have proved themselves
2. We are rewarding mediocre performances by selecting them in the side
3. We are not pushing them into making big 100s and consistent run scoring, we are just picking them after glimpses.
4. Examples are Bravo, Dwayne Smith, Samuels, Devon Smith, Ganga, Ryan Hinds, Ramdin. Their careers are being damaged before they reach the age of 24/25.
5. They should have to score big consistent runs for at least 2 years in first class cricket.
6. Once they have done this they should play a year of club/county cricket in England to hone their skills and round of the mental/physical/tactical sides of their game.
7. Once they have been though this system (what i called my system) then they should be available to be called up.

It is a lot more than just waiting until they are 24/25 to blood them.

[fishs]

Alright , so following on your reasoning , what happens if they don't score or take wickets consistently over time ?
And to make matters worse hardly anybody else does.

[Remie]

Alright , so following on your reasoning , what happens if they don't score or take wickets consistently over time ?
And to make matters worse hardly anybody else does.

Then we are in deep shit (we are already in it) but at least we would have given ourselves the best possible chance of being successful.

The young players will know that if they want to represent West Indies in the future they will simply have to perform and will not get an easy route into the team. In the past this has happened and we need to put a stop to it. They need an incentive.

[dinho]

So how come in other countries, players come into the side at a young age and are able to prove and establish themselves??

I think the answer to that is in the whole coaching setup that facilitates the development of young players. More than anything else, I think that is what needs to be looked at.

I cant support this idea, because those talented young players are not going to develop by spending extra years playing sub-standard first class cricket in the Caribbean and not being exposed to international level competition.

I agree that too much youths in the side might be throwing them in at the deep end, but I prefer that than to leave them for a few years playing backyard cricket in the Busta Cup.

[Remie]

So how come in other countries, players come into the side at a young age and are able to prove and establish themselves??

I think the answer to that is in the whole coaching setup that facilitates the development of young players. More than anything else, I think that is what needs to be looked at.

I cant support this idea, because those talented young players are not going to develop by spending extra years playing sub-standard first class cricket in the Caribbean and not being exposed to international level competition.

I agree that too much youths in the side might be throwing them in at the deep end, but I prefer that than to leave them for a few years playing backyard cricket in the Busta Cup.

The first class cricket may be sub-standard, but these guys are not even making big consistent runs there. Why do we expect them to do it at international level when they havent even done it at sub-standard first class level?

Other successful countries rarely throw players into international cricket below the age of 21 especially batsmen and when they do it is because those few young players have performed consistently very well in first class cricket for a few years still. Our young players have not.

Also I am advocating that the younger players get at least one years experience playing club/county cricket in England where the standard is much higher.

I do agree we need both more quality and quanity of coaching for younger players but even with that we will still have major problems if we carry on rewarding mediocre performances. It has to change.

[fishs]

So how come in other countries, players come into the side at a young age and are able to prove and establish themselves??

I think the answer to that is in the whole coaching setup that facilitates the development of young players. More than anything else, I think that is what needs to be looked at.

I cant support this idea, because those talented young players are not going to develop by spending extra years playing sub-standard first class cricket in the Caribbean and not being exposed to international level competition.

I agree that too much youths in the side might be throwing them in at the deep end, but I prefer that than to leave them for a few years playing backyard cricket in the Busta Cup.

Now thats more like it.
However Remie has a point.
The older WI teams had men who would take the younger players on board and show them the ropes etc.

Imagine what it was like when Chanderpaul made the WI team when he was 17 ?
Simmons and Haynes, Lara, Richardson, Logie, Hooper, Williams, Walsh Ambrose, Patterson all apart from Lara at that time had enough experience to look after the youngsters.
 So we lost the plot when we got rid of people in a rush.
Now the rebuilding have to start with this young group, bite the bullet and keep them going even if they continue to fail at least they will pass on lessons learnt about defeat.

[Remie]

Just to clarify something. I have no problem with a 21 year old getting a call up if he has already had 2 consistent run scoring seasons under his belt, but our current 21 year olds have not even come close to meeting this criteria. Plus in the future obviously i have said i would like them to get an extra year in English club/county cricket.

If a player starts at 18 manages to score big and consistently in his first 2 seasons, then he can go off to England for a year, and then be in the West Indies team by 21. If it takes the player longer to learn how to make big runs then so be it.

I dont want any more careers being wasted but i can see Simmons and Pollard going down the route of Samuels and Dwayne Smith if we continue to throw these players into the international arena before they earn the right.

[fishs]

Just to clarify something. I have no problem with a 21 year old getting a call up if he has already had 2 consistent run scoring seasons under his belt, but our current 21 year olds have not even come close to meeting this criteria. Plus in the future obviously i have said i would like them to get an extra year in English club/county cricket.

Remie, right now the selectors just grasping at straws anybody who look like they could be a superstar off of 1 or 2 outings they going to pick an hope that is the savior of WI cricket. For the life of me I don't understand how Sylvestor Joseph, Ganga and Pedro Collins not in the WI squads for both tests and one days.
Our entire cricket in a quagmire and nobody sitting back and formulating a way out. BK looks like he is clueless in all this.
As for boys getting a chance to play county cricket ? That ent going to happen as long as the restrictions in place for overseas players, they'll quicker use NZ , SA and Aus players.
Sacqlain Mustaq playing county cricket but he calssed as an English player now because of his wife and any other overseas player from elsewhere going to have to be a serious crowd puller.

[Remie]

Just to clarify something. I have no problem with a 21 year old getting a call up if he has already had 2 consistent run scoring seasons under his belt, but our current 21 year olds have not even come close to meeting this criteria. Plus in the future obviously i have said i would like them to get an extra year in English club/county cricket.

Remie, right now the selectors just grasping at straws anybody who look like they could be a superstar off of 1 or 2 outings they going to pick an hope that is the savior of WI cricket. For the life of me I don't understand how Sylvestor Joseph, Ganga and Pedro Collins not in the WI squads for both tests and one days.
Our entire cricket in a quagmire and nobody sitting back and formulating a way out. BK looks like he is clueless in all this.
As for boys getting a chance to play county cricket ? That ent going to happen as long as the restrictions in place for overseas players, they'll quicker use NZ , SA and Aus players.
Sacqlain Mustaq playing county cricket but he calssed as an English player now because of his wife and any other overseas player from elsewhere going to have to be a serious crowd puller.

The first option is club cricket. If they have performed well at first class level in West Indies they will comfortably find a club for a season.

With regard to county cricket some counties do not use their full quota because of wages etc. Some counties need replacements for when their overseas player goes on international duty. Our players would be both relatively cheap and available for short term county stints if they impressed at the club. It is very possible.

If it doesnt happen then club cricket will be good enough experience anyway- it is a very competitive standard- they will learn how to play the swinging ball, professionalism, improve mentaly as they are away from their families in a foreign land etc. All of this will be learnt before they go into international cricket.

[fishs]

 Actually not to take away from the point you are trying to make, South Africa could be as good a place as any for the youths to go and hone their skills and I think the clubs their would be responsive.

 We need to develop fast bowlers again I still think if Governments across the Wi paying and looking after strong young men to be soldiers, why can't they get 10 odd volunteers of the men with the best physique to train exclusively with Ambrose and Walsh and see what happens.
I damn serious.

[dinho]

But ent it have some issue with the WI retainer contracts that preventing our players from playing county cricket anymore? The county cricket thing is a whole separate issue cause I believe our players lack of exposure since they stopped being able to play county cricket as easily as before is a big factor in the decline in our cricket... Its like having to pick a whole football side from PFL..

But if our youngsters not performing at regional level and getting picked, and our older players not performing at international level then what we have to work with??

maybe we just shitty???

[TrinInfinite]

my plan and it will work....

REPLACE THE SELECTORS....... KHANHAI, RADHEE AND SOBERS SHOULD BE THE SELECTION COMMITEE....

God is de BOSS......

[Remie]

But ent it have some issue with the WI retainer contracts that preventing our players from playing county cricket anymore? The county cricket thing is a whole separate issue cause I believe our players lack of exposure since they stopped being able to play county cricket as easily as before is a big factor in the decline in our cricket... Its like having to pick a whole football side from PFL..

But if our youngsters not performing at regional level and getting picked, and our older players not performing at international level then what we have to work with??

maybe we just shitty???

The English club/county cricket was all part of my system and is there from the first post. But English clubs and counties arent just gonna take players who have just shown just talent in West Indian first class cricket either. The clubs and countines will want to see proven consistent first class players before they even consider taking them on. They wont get contracts just so. That is why it is all part of the plan. We in West Indies seem to be one of the few cricketing nations that reward mediocrity.

Yep currently there is a rule that you cannot play in England if you want to play for West Indies unless you get special dispensation. I want this rule scraped. It is absolutely ridiculous and is holding back the development of our players.

At the moment we have very little to work with thats why i want this plan implemented so in 5 years time we do have better resources to work with.

[Remie]

my plan and it will work....

REPLACE THE SELECTORS....... KHANHAI, RADHEE AND SOBERS SHOULD BE THE SELECTION COMMITEE....

God is de BOSS......

Even if these 3 are selectors they will probably still be choosing players that are not ready for international cricket. Im not saying its a bad idea- they may be better than our current selectors but i dont think it will make much difference to our long term future. Even if they would pick Dave Mohammed we still will not have good enough batsmen or bowlers to compete with the top teams. We need to be producing players to a much higher standard- for me its not a selection issue its a quality of player issue.

But i hear what ure saying.

[g]

Bennett King needs to go,

What i am seeing is the current crop of players not getting coached up. Bravo and Gayle in particular, both have horrible footwork in the crease. Same type of action for the last 2 - 3 years. These two players are the face of our cricket for the next ten years but for them to come to the fore they need top quality coaching to help them improve the deficiencies of their game. When you look at the modern game, the best bowlers no longer rely solely on pace and bounce, they rely on their ability to vary pace and swing the the the ball, which one of our young players can really play swing bowling? They all look very suspect to the new ball which results in us always losing wickets early.

What i am also not seeing is our players evolving with the game. I taking a next swipe and Mr Gayle, the coolest man in cricket who never looks eager to run between the wickets, with particular attention to the Australia game i watch how they run between the wickets always agressive putting the fielders under pressure. The little things add up to make a big difference.

I wouldnt even comment on the team fielding, that is ah nex bag ah worms.

[willi]

I think we may indeed be overreacting.

WI OD cricket is NOT in a crisis. This same team was just in the ICC finals and essentially the same team was defending Champs before that. What they are is inconsistent and off form. Gayle was the unquestioned star batsman of the last ICC tourney.

Can we attribute this inconsistency to the firing of the team psychologist 5 years ago with no replacement?? Doesn't Tiger Woods, Federer, Venus, Schumacher, etc utilize performance psychs? Doesnt Aussies and other do the same? How else do they hone and maintain their mental toughness???

You see, the Windies did well initially in all those matches they lost and then things fell apart when the breaks did not go our way. Taylor beat Hayden for pace 3 times in his first 2 overs, we missed 4 easy run outs, the Paki ump "tief out" Chanders, The NZ top order wobbled, as did the Sri Lankans. The Windies of old or the Aussies of today would have smelled blood and pounced. The Windies of today spend time rueing the near misses.

As to the bowling, is it any coincidence tat Powell is doing the best, given that Holding has taken him under his wing as PERSONAL mentor. He even took him as special guest to his award ceremony to provide Powell with extra motivation.

I have seen some valuable suggestions made in this thread, but I see a danger in throwing out the baby with the bath water. Perhaps our biggest problem is that we have not formed a cohesive unit that forces constant and never-ending improvement. As an Indian bredrin pointed out, Austr and RSA always approach ever game with a professional attitude and perform accordingly, they dont rely on flashes of brillance and sheer talent.

These are my humble opinions, as I am not the biggest cricket fan..I am more a football and track man.

[Remie]

This is not just about ODI cricket this is about West Indies cricket in general and in particular Test match cricket.

Sorry i didnt make that clear from the start. I have just chosen this World Cup whilst there is all the interest to make my point.

[Organic]

they need to carry that whoel team by ah pundit for  apuja. they ass need to get jah-ray.
then carry them by mother joan and ah serious bush bath with some vervine, ven ven bush, blacck sage, de-te-payee
wanan bet we start to play

[ribbit]

nice point willi. a team psychologist is essential for modern day cricket. people talking about how well paid the WI players are - yet they not getting sports psychologist before World Cup @ home when the pressure at its highest?   where is the planning?

[RRamdin]

Something has to be done or at least tried to help West Indies cricket at the moment. In the short-term this plan is viable as it costs nothing (maybe the cost of a flight abroad and a subsidising of the players wages) and it will undoubtedly aid our young players development. How do I know this? Many players of the past-great West Indian players have played English league club cricket; these include Learie Constantine, Courtney Walsh, Shiv Chanderpaul use to play a bit aswell. The skills that will be learnt are many including professionalism as they will be a clubs overseas pro, learning to live in a foreign environment and most importantly learning how to cope with different conditions day and day out. One day it may be hot the other it will be cold and overcast; this will be especially important for bowlers but also good for batsman. Also it is clear that West Indies players currently are making the test team too early and therefore have not had to fight or do anything substantial to make the west indies team. A few years of heavy scoring in domestic cricket followed by maybe a few hard yrs playing in the cold in England will only increase their appetite for international cricket.

In the long-term an academy has to be built to prepare and train our youngsters for int.cricket. But this requires money, a resource we are short of at the moment. Maybe the revenue from the World Cup and future tourism may help fund an academy in the future.

An alternate idea which is similiar to the one mentioned originally in this post, is to send our youngsters at the age of maybe 11, 12, 13 on a scholarship to an English cricketing school, which would be fully paid by the WICB. Here they could play good quality schools cricket something that is lacking in the West Indies at the moment. Good quality schools cricket is common amongst most of the top int.countries in the world. There are already some instances of west indian boys who are good cricketers playing cricket at some of the better cricketing schools here.

[Remie]

Something has to be done or at least tried to help West Indies cricket at the moment. In the short-term this plan is viable as it costs nothing (maybe the cost of a flight abroad and a subsidising of the players wages) and it will undoubtedly aid our young players development. How do I know this? Many players of the past-great West Indian players have played English league club cricket; these include Learie Constantine, Courtney Walsh, Shiv Chanderpaul use to play a bit aswell. The skills that will be learnt are many including professionalism as they will be a clubs overseas pro, learning to live in a foreign environment and most importantly learning how to cope with different conditions day and day out. One day it may be hot the other it will be cold and overcast; this will be especially important for bowlers but also good for batsman. Also it is clear that West Indies players currently are making the test team too early and therefore have not had to fight or do anything substantial to make the west indies team. A few years of heavy scoring in domestic cricket followed by maybe a few hard yrs playing in the cold in England will only increase their appetite for international cricket.

In the long-term an academy has to be built to prepare and train our youngsters for int.cricket. But this requires money, a resource we are short of at the moment. Maybe the revenue from the World Cup and future tourism may help fund an academy in the future.

An alternate idea which is similiar to the one mentioned originally in this post, is to send our youngsters at the age of maybe 11, 12, 13 on a scholarship to an English cricketing school, which would be fully paid by the WICB. Here they could play good quality schools cricket something that is lacking in the West Indies at the moment. Good quality schools cricket is common amongst most of the top int.countries in the world. There are already some instances of west indian boys who are good cricketers playing cricket at some of the better cricketing schools here.

I agree an academy is a must if we can get the funding. It will increase the talent pool that we will have to choose from. Obviously once these players leave the academy at ages of 18/19 i would want them to go through my system to round off their cricketing education, which you agree with. Finally someone has seen the light.

I would just like to point out that although my plan can be implemented right now, it is not a short term solution as such, it is more long term orientated although i agree the academy will be even more long term orientated which is the scale of time that we have to be looking at now in our current situation.

Going on to your other point, to be honest i think 11-13 is too young to choose a select few that deserve it because it is so hard to differentiate at that age. Possibly i can agree with you if you say ages of around 16, once these players have come through the West Indies U-15 team.

[weary1969]

Start with the great white hoax. We were rank 4th in the ODI b4 he game on his paid vacation in the tropics.

[fishs]

Start with the great white hoax. We were rank 4th in the ODI b4 he game on his paid vacation in the tropics.

  Shades of de wimp.